Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:18, 30 April 2007

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 19:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 02:41, 25 December 2024 (UTC).

• MONGO (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

User:MONGO is consistently incivil to Wikipedians who are sceptical of the official US government (and/or mainstream media) version of the events of 9/11, and who are therefore somewhat hastily identified as "conspiracy theorists". This is unfortunate because they may make very excellent contributions to Misplaced Pages and are being discouraged from participating by what is often a hostile rhetorical posture. They have better things to do than put up with repeated bullying and attempts to impugn their motives.

It is precisely this aspect of Mongo's behaviour that has recently occasioned me (User:Thomas Basboll) to withdraw from actively contributing to Misplaced Pages. The purpose of this RfC is to help decide whether that is an acceptable outcome (i.e., the lesser of two evils). I hope this won't become a discussion about how thick my skin is but, rather, a discussion about how thick anyone's skin should reasonably have to be in order to participate in Misplaced Pages.

An RfC is needed especially because of the broad base of respect that Mongo has in the WP community. This respect is well-deserved and comes as the result of his substantial contributions to article content. While these contributions cannot, of course, justify his incivility, it should be taken into account in handling this dispute. That is, it should be kept in mind that Mongo's behaviour expresses an established interpretation of Misplaced Pages policy. As a result of his standing in the community, and also because he presents a forceful "no nonsense" persona in discussions, Mongo's approach is winning adherents. He sets a standard that others follow.

It is important to stress that this RfC is not about Mongo's overall qualities as a Wikipedian. It is about what has been called his "excessive zeal", lack of restraint, and, to my mind, poor judgment in dealing with people who are critical of the established view of 9/11.

Desired outcome

That Mongo retract and apologize for his offensive and bullying remarks, resolve to make a special effort to remain civil on 9/11 related articles, and help to raise the standard of discussion about these articles in general. Alternatively, that Mongo stop editing the disputed articles.

That a more welcoming tone be enforced as the standard way of dealing with POV edits (as already stipulated by policy). By withdrawing from editing article content, I imagine I represent a largely silent group of would-be Wikipedians whose factual knowledge would serve as the basis for useful contributions if the level of civility in this area were improved. Indeed, this case should begin the process of overturning what seems to have become a tacit consensus to suspend WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL in the case of suspected 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Other marginalized views share the same fate, of course, so a much larger principle can in fact be tested here.

Description

I started editing Misplaced Pages on July 19, 2006, and immediately ran into Mongo. I quit on March 3, 2007 because I had had enough of his hostility toward my edits. The final straw for me was this exchange on Mongo's talk page, and its subsequent development/escalation at AN/I . Mongo's view seems to be that his original edit summary was justified, that my objections were themselves uncivil, and that his own "physical" posturing could not be construed as any sort of threat. On his view, it was simply a justified demand that I go away.

In addition to asking Tyrenius for help, which soon led to an AN/I (when Mongo impugned Tyrenius's motives for getting involved), I asked Tom Harrison to informally mediate between us . The results were unsatisfactory and I then stopped editing. I interpret Mongo's view to be that, "in the context of the disagreements we generally have," there should be no presumption of good faith between us. On this view, even a polite (if terse) suggestion to end the discussion for today (i.e., "have a nice day") should be read as an offensive gesture (i.e., "fuck you".)

Mongo also does not make any practical distinction between NPOV violations (at least in the case of so-called 9/11 conspiracy theories) and vandalism, though WP policy is clear on this. This leads him to treat those who make good-faith attempts to get an article to reflect their view of things as he would treat people who are trying to make Misplaced Pages look bad (or just generally irritate the Misplaced Pages community). He treats even the latter with unnecessary rudeness, which risks feeding the trolls. (See discussion here .)

In assessing this incident, it may be useful to look back at the historical context Mongo refers to. From the beginning (at the top of this archive ), Mongo has approached my edits in terms of the POV he believed they implied and in violation of WP:AGF . This led him to forcefully resist edits that would eventually be adopted by the community. Mongo has also rebuffed all objections to his treatment of me. .

The purpose of this RfC is really to re-assert the general Misplaced Pages value of civility over particular and predictable local disputes of the moment. Every time popular figures announce their support for the 9/11 Truth Movement, or every time an anniversary brings new background coverage of "9/11 conspiracy theories" in the media, the related Misplaced Pages articles will become points of fresh contention about (for most of us) familiar issues. The question is whether we want Mongo's trademark hostility to be part of these flare-ups. I would prefer we develop a more civil way of meeting the 9/11 Truth POV here at Misplaced Pages. We know it is out there; let's deal with it constructively. And let's do so in a manner that is becoming of an intellectual community.

Evidence of disputed behavior

1. Makes incivil edit summary: .
2. Forcefully rebuffs attempts to resolve conflict:.
3. Bites newbie suspected of 9/11 conspiracy sympathies: .
4. Characterizes conspiracy theories as "nonsense" in edit summary: .
5. Reverts good faith (albeit clearly POV) edit as "lies": .
6. Needlessly uses the pejorative "POV pushing" to justify revert: .
7. Mongo often reverts good-faith 9/11 Truth POV edits as vandalism ("rvv"). In so doing he equates them with this edit and this one , which are clearly of a different order. Do note that there is nothing wrong with his editorial judgment in the examples I have selected. The problem is simply that his edit summaries are unhelpful, unwelcoming, and counter to policy. This is example and this one are typical. In some cases he (correctly) reverts substantial attempts to improve WP as vandalism ("rvv") without further explanation: here and here , for example. In this case he seems to revert as part of what is clearly a content dispute but calls it simply vandalism:. In a recent example, he explicitly made the charge of vandalism on the involved user's talk page: (falsely informing the user that this sort of edit "is considered vandalism".)

Applicable policies and guidelines

1. WP:CIVIL
2. WP:AGF
3. WP:NPA
4. WP:NPOV dispute (Mainly for its point about the incivility of the term "POV pushing" .)
5. WP:VANDALISM: "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism. Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Misplaced Pages. For example, adding a personal opinion once is not vandalism — it's just not helpful, and should be removed or restated."

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. Thomas Basboll 19:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
2. Tyrenius 06:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. bov 20:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
2. SalvNaut 21:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
3. Guinnog 23:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
4. Piperdown 11:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
5. Mongo is mean. Babalooo 23:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
6. Ombudsman 04:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
7. —AldeBaer 04:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC) Cautiously endorse, with strong emphasis on the fact that this RfC is not in the least about MONGO's great editing capabilities (or about 9/11 or conspiracy theories), but about several failures to AGF, including somewhat inappropriate accusations of pushing a POV and of vandalism, as demonstrated above.

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

The last thing I want to do is be the one who would drive off contributors either due to what Mr. Basboll refers to as "bullying" or "incivility". Basboll did a pretty decent job updating the Collapse of the World Trade Center article and he deserves credit for that. But throughout his effort there, there seemed to be minor attempts in that article and in the September 11, 2001 attacks article to incorporate conspiracy theories regarding the events. I wouldn't call Mr. Basboll a conspiracy theorist, but he is certainly fascinated by them, at those related to the events of 9/11/2001. No doubt, a large number of people worldwide, especially outside the U.S. believe the U.S. government, or some shadowy enterprise possibly in association with the government, were behind either the entire event, or at least minimally involved. Plainly speaking, there is no proof of this, just as there is no proof of UFO's, or Bigfoot or Nessie. The undue weight clause of the NPOV policy is clear in regards to how unsubstantiated information is to be presented...as seen here. Mr. Basboll needs to understand that public opinion regarding conspiracy theories surrounding the events of 9/11/2001 are just that; opinions. The overwhelming majority of engineers, scientists, researchers and investigators have concurred that the "official explanation" of the events are factual. Even the extremely minor disagreements regarding exactly how buildings collapsed that some engineers dispute are about the precise manner of collapse, not that they were actually blown up or that the U.S. Government was behind it. Main articles such as the Collapse of the Word Trade Center and the September 11, 2001 attacks follow the undue weight principle of the NPOV policy...there is a brief mention of the conspiracy theories and a link to "daughter" articles which provide exhaustive detail...namely, the Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center and 9/11 Conspiracy theories. After making improvements to the Collapse of the World Trade Center article, Mr. Basboll worked extensively on these daughter articles. He then reverted back to inform us of his original goal, namely to try and add more conspiracy theory rhetoric. I do believe that his facination with the conspiracy theories is not an indication that he is a conspiracy theorist. But in keeping with the undue weight clause of NPOV, the polls and opinions of non-experts on these matters is no more noteworthy than a brief mention, if that. What we have to rely on is the facts of the case, and to add unsubstantiated and misleading things to the articles is not in keeping with undue weight. Mr. Basboll has chosen to edit only one very specific grouping of articles, all of which are related the events of 9/11/2001...these articles have been places where a lot of major disagreements have occurred, some of them hostile...he should know that there are passionate feelings about these subjects and people respond to them in various ways. Many who trust the known evidence feel highly insulted when others, armed only with their predisposed belief that the known evidence may be or is incorrect, attempt to insert their predisposed beliefs into these articles...and try and cite questionable authorities who lack the credentials or the facts to back up their claims. That Mr. Basboll doesn't wander out into other areas of Misplaced Pages and instead sticks to only a select few, and has presented overtones and made attempts to increase the coverage of the conspiracy theories, makes him appear to be a POV pusher. That he edits nowhere else, makes it look from my viewpoint that he wishes to use Misplaced Pages as a soapbox. I don't know for certain that this is the case. Regardless, I have never once threatened to have Mr. Basboll blocked for his attempts to include more CT in the articles, nor have I ever asked him stop editing. In fact, I told him that the only person keeping him from editing was himself. However, in light of past exchanges between us, I do apologize that my wording came across as intimidating or in any way harassing. I would also caution him about referring to me as a man of a "particular kind of science" at best or similar in future postings.--MONGO 17:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Crockspot 22:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
2. StuffOfInterest 20:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
3. Tbeatty 23:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
4. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 02:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
5. Mmx1 00:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
6. rogerd 01:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
7. Musical Linguist 01:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
8. – Riana 04:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
9. Sarah 13:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
10. --Aude (talk) 23:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
11. Well said. Note, though, that few of those obsessed with the 9/11 conspiracy theories are anything like as reasonable as Thomas Basboll. Guy (Help!) 06:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
12. Sorry for my belated input. I only just learned about this disgraceful RfC.--Mantanmoreland 18:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
13. Phaedriel - 18:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
14. Tom Harrison 18:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
15. —AldeBaer 04:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

1. Crockspot 19:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
2. StuffOfInterest 19:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
3. Pablothegreat85 21:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
4. rogerd 21:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
5. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 22:47, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
6.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 22:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
7. Phaedriel - 23:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
8. Musical Linguist 23:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
9. Tom Harrison 01:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
10. Antandrus (talk) 05:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
11. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
12. Sarah 14:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
13. --Aude (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
14. RxS 20:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
15. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
16. Daniel Bryant 04:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
17. --Tbeatty 18:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
18. Vsmith 02:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
19. Weregerbil 12:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
20. --Haemo 02:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
21. You forgot "buy him a beer", but such errors are forgivable. Seraphimblade 20:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
22. Mmx1 00:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
23. Buy him a beer! :-) SlimVirgin 13:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
24. I gave up editing on conspiracy articles a long time ago precisely because the ridiculously stupid POV pushers will have your hide in a sling if you stick around there long enough. Someone needs to step in and give them the biggest clue stick in existence to the head. Major, major kudos and all kinds of make up thank yous to MONGO for being brave (stupid?) enough to stand up to these dolts. --Durin 22:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
25. Yup. WP:SPADE appplies. Guy (Help!) 06:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
26. I agree. People adding encyclopaedic content should always be nurtured, but there are those who simply want to add conspiratorial theorising. Almost anything can be the subject of a conspiracy theory if you're prepared to adopt that mindset, but it makes for a nonsense encyclopaedia article: resistance is valuable and should be encouraged. Sam Blacketer 08:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
27. Why do we continue to allow editors who are here soley to misinform (the 9/11 truth squad, which includes both of the instigators of this RFC) edit? Ban everyone who focuses on their VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION being POV-pushed and these problems go up in smoke. Also, guess how many good editors would return?Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
28. I read this Mr. Crockspots comments. He is very mean too. Babalooo 23:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
29. Geologyguy 02:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
30. Does he smoke cigars? Elkman 13:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
31. Mantanmoreland 18:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
32. We need to ensure WP:UNDUE is maintained, despite pressures from nuts, extremists, and fringe groups. Crum375 21:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
33. I agree get him a medal, cigar and a Margarita.--Dakota 21:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
34. Bravo. --Golbez 22:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
35. ding ding ding. we have a winner. Dman727 06:18, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
36. I'll see your medal, cigar, beer, and Margarita, and raise you a shrubbery. Raymond Arritt 14:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
37. I suggest a Scooby-snack as well. KillerChihuahua 21:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
38. Bishzilla 00:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

1. rogerd 02:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
2. CWC 05:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
3. StuffOfInterest 10:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
4. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
5. Sarah 14:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
6. Crockspot 16:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
7. Musical Linguist 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
8. Daniel Bryant 04:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
9.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 19:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
10. Vsmith 02:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
11. – Riana 03:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
12. Mmx1 00:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
13. This endorsement (if it was meant to be just that) has been moved to the talk page here.
14. Junglecat speaketh the truth.--Mantanmoreland 18:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
15. — MichaelLinnear 04:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
16. KillerChihuahua 21:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
17. Bishzilla 00:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
18. Pascal.Tesson 03:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
19. —AldeBaer 04:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC) Obviously.

Outside view of User:Guinnog

MONGO is a good man and a good editor of Misplaced Pages. He has allowed his convictions about 9/11 to override his ability to assume good faith. We depend on the contributions of volunteers to improve our encyclopedia and it therefore behoves us to treat new (and established) contributors with courtesy. I certainly still regret the incident a few weeks ago where I removed a vandalism warning MONGO placed (I believed inappropriately) on a new user's talk page, as this was discourteous to MONGO, who was trying in his own way to protect the integrity of the encyclopedia. However, I also believe that MONGO should exercise more care to distinguish real, unambiguous vandalism from the good-faith attempts of others to improve articles. We can undo or refine unhelpful edits without labelling the editors who make them as "vandals" or "POV-pushers". It often becomes a judgement call between assuming good faith and protecting the project from poor edits. I believe we can do both.

We may also wish to consider reviewing how the NPOV policy is enforced in 9/11-related articles to try to prevent situations like this in the future. Do, or should, 9/11 related articles have a special status in the project? If they do, this should be discussed and defined properly. The current system causes problems for bona fide editors wishing to contribute to certain articles, as well as to those who take on the task of watching these articles, as this case makes clear.

It may be partly a cultural thing; as an internationalist Wikipedian, I see no intrinsic philosophical difference between those wishing to add verifiable information on alternative theories on 9/11, and those who edit articles such as Global warming, Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations, RMS Titanic, David Irving or Loch Ness Monster (all of which I watch) in certain directions. So long as they follow policy (and I have seen no evidence that Thomas has not done so), their contributions should be respected and they too should be treated with respect. We must renew our commitment to being able to disagree without losing respect for those we disagree with.

No good-faith editor should be intimidated or browbeaten as Thomas feels he has been. Even outright vandals (which Thomas is not, by any stretch of the imagination) deserve to be treated with courtesy. It should surely be unacceptable to say, as MONGO did, "...when you say "have a nice day" in the context of the disagreements we generally have, that is the slang way of saying, "Fuck you"...surely you know this. Interestingly, no one ever seems to say anything like that when confronted with my physical presence...something about my persona generally makes that a risky choice to make". I do not think he should have been blocked for saying this, but I do not think he should be encouraged to believe this is an acceptable or collegial way to interact with people here either.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Guinnog 16:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
2. SchmuckyTheCat 18:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
3. SalvNaut 20:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
4. Tyrenius 21:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC) There's no excuse for that kind of response. It demands immediate retraction.~
5. Thomas Basboll 12:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
6. ... Kafkaesque Seabhcan 13:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
7. Lovelight 17:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
8. -- Zleitzen 02:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC) MONGO is a great contributor, one of the best, and I agree with his mainspace edits here. However, his statement which included "f**k you" and made reference to his physical presence is totally unacceptable. That this hasn't been roundly condemned reflects poorly on various editors elsewhere on this page. If he hasn't already, I recommend that MONGO retract that statement and vow not to stoop to those depths again.
9. How you know Mongo is a good man? All I read was mean things from Mr. Mongo. Babalooo 23:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
10. —AldeBaer 04:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC) Very well put and to the point.

Outside view of User:Aude

As stated on WP:RFC, an "RfC may bring close scrutiny on all involved editors". This view considers all involved editors, which is important to understanding the situation at hand.

Single purpose account (SPA) users may be looked at with suspicion, often as exhibiting POV pushing and tendentious editing behavior. It is indeed permitted for users to edit only articles on a particular topic, but also reasonable for Wikipedians to exercise added scrutiny of such editors. On 9/11 articles, there are a number of single purpose editors -- all conspiracy theory proponents. A coincidence? Sometimes, a spade is a spade, and some (not naming names) do exhibit tendentious editing behavior. User:Thomas Basboll has also been a 9/11 SPA, and (fairly or not) may be viewed with some suspicion, extra scrutiny, and (fairly or not) limited patience. Basboll would do well to diversify his contributions, to include other topics, should he not want to be treated with such extra scrutiny and suspicion.

If MONGO was solely editing 9/11 topics, he would be viewed with the same suspicion. Instead, MONGO has made numerous excellent contributions to other topics he's interested in. In editing Retreat of glaciers since 1850, he has demonstrated that he puts NPOV and other interests of the Misplaced Pages project ahead of his own POV. On 9/11 articles, he also puts the interests of Misplaced Pages (as a respectable encyclopedia) ahead of anything else and adheres to WP:NPOV, WP:RS, NPOV#Undue weight, and other relevant policies.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Aude (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
2. StuffOfInterest 11:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
3. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 11:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
4. Tom Harrison 12:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
5. Excellent point, endorsed by someone who was originally regarded with extra scrutiny herself. Musical Linguist 13:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
6. Crockspot 13:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
7. RxS 14:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC) This is a point that I wanted to make since this was opened. There's a small group of editors who are not here to write an encyclopdia, but to push a POV...they shouldn't be suprised when they get "push back". The more tendentious among them do more damage here then any number of vandals.
8. Phaedriel - 16:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC). Excellent point indeed, and as further proof of the truth in Aude's words, I simply invite anyone interested to check at MONGO's own userpage the extensive list of articles created and/or improved by him in a solid wiki-career spanning over two years, of which only a marginal part refers to political issues.
9. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
10. rogerd 16:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
11.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 23:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
12. Pablothegreat85 01:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
13. Very good point and well written, Aude. Sarah 04:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
14. Daniel Bryant 04:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
15. – Riana 17:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
16. Tbeatty 18:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
17. Vsmith 02:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
18. --Haemo 02:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
19. Excellent point. I've worked with MONGO on a number of articles that have become featured articles. He is an effective leader and his dedication to improving Misplaced Pages is exemplary. Walter Siegmund (talk) 03:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
20. Peter Grey 16:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC) It should be noted that the encyclopedic content is not an "official US government" account; it is mis-characterized as such to give a false impression of a NPOV issue in an attempt to put folklore on an equal footing with reality.
21. Mmx1 00:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
22. Agreed. --Durin 22:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
23. Geologyguy 02:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
24. He's done a lot of great work on national parks articles as well. Elkman 13:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
25. Mantanmoreland 18:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
26. — MichaelLinnear 04:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
27. MONGO great editor. Bishzilla 00:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
28. Pascal.Tesson 03:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Outside view of User:Mangoe

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I've been in the position of having to deal with 9/11 conspiracy material before, and I can understand how it is maddening to have to shoot down the same allegations over and over again. On the other hand, I do not see that the supposed values of someone's other edits or contributions to Misplaced Pages are important here. Perhaps it would be better to defend the articles like a mother bear defending her cubs, but for better or worse, that's not the model of discourse the project espouses. So I support the call to temper language.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Mangoe 18:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
2. Guinnog 18:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
3. Tyrenius 21:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Roll on stable versions.
4. Lovelight 14:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Outside view of User:Tbeatty

The issue stems from the 9/11 conspiracy theories. While the movement is interesting and deserves attention, the theories they espouse simply do not warrant inclusion in the accounts of 9/11. They have their own accounts of the events and they have their own articles. The problem is that while they want to challenge the "mainstream version of events" with alternate theories, they want them included in the mainstream articles. This dichotomy is emblematic of the problem of inclusion. The reality is that they are a non-scientific minority opinion and deserve the same treatment as the Flat-Earth Society. They are interesting as an organization. They deserve coverage as an organization/movement. But their opinion on the factual accounts of 9/11 simply don't belong in the mainstream 9/11 articles. We don't have the Flat Earth Society's views in the General Theory of Relativity article. MONGO has consistently fought the disinformation being introduced to the accepted scientific view of the events surrounding 9/11 and for that he should be commended.

1. Tbeatty 18:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
2. RxS 18:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Excellent thumbnail, should be required reading.
3.  MortonDevonshire  Yo  · 19:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC) Well put. After all, we don't put Holocaust denier's claims, as Tyrenius suggests we do, in the mainstream Holocaust article in an effort to "balance" the perspective on whether the Nazis killed millions of Jews. Okay, if you want to have articles on David Irving, that's fine, but don't expect Irving's views to get a full airing in the historical-factual account of the Holocaust. Similarly, don't expect us to give the same weight to the outlandish views of 9/11 deniers like Jim Hoffman, Paul Thompson, or Alex Jones similar weight in the historical-factual account of the September 11 attacks. Nobody is suggesting that these fringe views get no coverage -- what we are suggesting is that they take their proper place in our encyclopedia.
4. Crockspot 22:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
5. JungleCat Shiny!/Oohhh! 23:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC) For some outstanding reason, the word "integrity" comes to mind. Well said indeed.
6. Vsmith 02:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
7. Sarah 03:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
8. StuffOfInterest 17:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
9. Musical Linguist 18:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
10. rogerd 20:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
11. Haemo 02:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
12. I like this interpretation of UNDUE. Daniel Bryant 04:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
13. Very good points made. Seraphimblade 20:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
14. Mmx1 00:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
15. Well put. --Durin 22:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
16. --Aude (talk) 23:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
17. Yup. The problem is mainly that MONGO is one of the few editors prepared to continue resisting this drive to include conspiracy theories in articles where they have no place. Guy (Help!) 15:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
18. Well said. -Will Beback · † · 22:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
19. Agreed.--Mantanmoreland 18:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
20. SlimVirgin 20:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
21. While presenting 'all knowledge', we need to do so in a balanced fashion, in proportion to the prevalence of the views verifiably published in the mainstream. We must ensure WP:UNDUE is maintained, despite pressures from nuts, extremists, and fringe groups. Crum375 21:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
22. Obviously. — MichaelLinnear 04:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
23. Well put. A place for everything, but not everything all over the place. Raymond Arritt 14:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
24. Crum375 puts it well. CWC 15:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
25. Phaedriel - 18:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
26. KillerChihuahua 21:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
27. Walter Siegmund (talk) 00:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
28. Support MONGO and also Flat Earth Society. Bishzilla 00:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).
29. Pascal.Tesson 03:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)