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Response

I responded to your comment on my talkpage. --Valley2city 07:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandals

Thanks for the quick response --Steve _(Stephen) 22:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right of course, it wasn't so much the talk page blanking as the disruption that wasn't going to go away. Thanks for clarifying. --Steve _(Stephen) 23:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you for protecting the ACN Inc. page. It seems there are some people with vested interests in keeping the page vague. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tristan.buckmaster (talk • contribs) 23:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Thanks!

Thanks coelacan!

And re: This. As the proud father (and rabid feminist since her birth), of a strange, wonderful, beautiful, perfect and gay daughter, I can assure you that yes, women do have lives, and that sanity and tolerance will eventually prevail in this country. The dinosaurs will die off, they always do.

--killing sparrows 02:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Daniella Morris

Hello, I moved this page for capitalization and then came across the prior deletion discussion which you participated in. Can you please use your mop to see if this page is a simple recreation vs. new content? --After Midnight 04:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty close, and I strongly suspect that this is the same article author using a different username. However, the first article did not actually get deleted at that AFD; it was speedy deleted as {{db-author}}. So {{db-recreation}} wouldn't apply anyway (as WP:CSD#G4 only works if an XfD resulted in deletion). So, sigh, this probably has to go to AFD again. The sources still aren't "sources", for the same reasons I outlined in the old AFD. Do you want to do the honors, or shall I? — coelacan — 04:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter to me which of us does it, but it is after 1 AM here and I need sleep. You can feel free to do it if you have time, or I can deal with it sometime tomorrow. --After Midnight 05:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It was my pleasure. (No kidding! Amusing to say the least.) — coelacan — 08:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Thanks for informing me. How can I make the articles on Kendall Gaveck and Daniella Morris better? They both are notable especially on IMDB which is an official movie database. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lindsaybabay (talk • contribs) 15:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Reporting Vandalism

You said a user can't be blocked until their last warning. Who has the authority to give a last warning? CJ 10:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I was reading this conversation between you and CJ. Sorry to intrude but I wanted to ask you another question, if you don't mind... I have seen in the past conflicting instances of the following situation. An anon IP vandal (for example) goes on and on until they amass the test4/final warning, then the IP stops. Then, maybe a few weeks later, the IP vandalizes again. I've noticed at AIV that sometimes different things happen. Sometimes I have seen the IP user blocked immediately, and sometimes the IP is not blocked (with the reasoning being that they have not vandalized for a few weeks since the final warning). I can see the logic in both actions, but I am uncomfortable with the fact that in the wording of test4, the IP user is warned that if they vandalize again, they will be blocked. (Sorry for the long preamble) My actual question is, is there a firm policy about this? Should an administrator block after vandalism occurs after the final warning, even if that vandalism occurs maybe months later? Thanks for any insight you can give. κaτaʟaveno_C 17:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

No firm policy on it. If they haven't vandalized for months, the admin may be thinking that the person who's doing the vandalism hasn't seen the warnings. It's all admin discretion and we have different opinions about appropriate block times and lengths since last warning (within the last week is commonly seen as recent enough). If you see a school or other repeat vandal that has been blocked multiple times already, nobody's going to yell at you if you add {{repeat vandal}} to the top of the talk page, which will make a block more likely next time. — coelacan — 17:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I figured it was something like that. I was asking about it because I usually post the vandal on AIV at the very next incident of vandalism after final warning, even if it's months later. κaτaʟaveno_C 19:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If it's an IP with a long block record but no warning in a month, someone might block if you make a note of the block record when making the AIV report. — coelacan — 19:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Acknowledged. Thanks again for all your info. It helps. κaτaʟaveno_C 13:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Response

Well, I won't be closing AfDs, as I find them terribly boring, but MfDs are more interesting. I'm sure I won't close any straight away (unless if it was unanimous, and therefore uncontroversial), but rather wait until I feel more comfortable with the process. Hope I answered clearly; please feel free to ask more questions. · AndonicO 10:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Microsoft IP Blocked

Hi Coelacan, Thanks for your concern. I didnt find a significant change (some "and" was changed). So, I guess you can remove the block upon our company's IP. I can try to follow it up if one of my friend wanted to play around with.

Balajiviswanathan 01:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I was pretty much surprized when one of my coworkers pointed out this to me and they were jokingly putting all the blame on me for this and so I messaged immediately. Since we have over 50000 users with this IP, we dont have much mechanisms for policing this ourself, unless there is also a way to get MAC address or something of the edit to get the actual person who did this.

Balajiviswanathan 02:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Request for Help

Hi Coelacan - on the Al Franken page we have one editor and an IP (possibly the same person?) who continue to put in unsourced POV statements into the article, with a citation that doesn't support those statements. The User has been warned, and it's now just vandalism. Can you please put a block in? They have already violated the 3RR rule to put these statements in, and been warned several times. It is User:Hughey. --David Shankbone 15:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the response on Al Franken. I am not the submitter of the material in question. My part has been only to revert the removals by David Shankbone and another. The removal by them seems in violation of the vandalism policy. For clarity, I realize where I erred, here, in as much as too many reverts. Still, that does not excuse their behavior. Hughey 16:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Hughey, our behavior was correct. You had not checked the article in question. I was the original person who put the "Issues" section in there, using the article in question. I knew it didn't say what you kept inserting. Had you read the article, you would have seen this as well. I also directed you to the talk page of User:Croctotheface so that you could read the article yourself. I understand you're new, but there was nothing wrong with the behavior three editors who reverted the addition of this material; especially, you know, since we read the article in question. --David Shankbone 19:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Dick Cheney

Regarding your revert of the Dennis Kucinich claim. The cite did lead to Rep Kucinich’s home page but in itself the connection to Impeachment is non-existent. The House Resolution that he claims to have authored (HR 333) has nothing to do with Cheney or impeachment. I did a little research and HR 333 is relative to an amendment of Title 11 of the US Code. It was authored by Rep. George Gekas . Hughey 18:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I was actually refered to the 109th Congress HR 333. My mistake. You're right it was added confusion. Hughey 18:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Deputy Coord?

If you don't have enough to do on Misplaced Pages (that's a joke! :), why not sign up to be a deputy coordinator? I think you'd be great at it! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been trying to studiously avoid that. Thanks for the suggestion, though. I'm a mite too busy irl to pick up anything else on wiki. — coelacan — 19:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Thecheez@hotmail.com

Sorry to be a pain, but you blocked the above user for having an @ in the name, but the user created this account before it came into policy and WP:U specifically says that these are still allowed. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

No worries, thank you very much for bringing that to my attention, Ryan. It was reported on AIV, but I'll have to remember to check the account creation log next time. — coelacan — 20:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I know it was, I was removing it when you blocked it - I'll have to be quicker next time :-) (don't think I was trawling through your logs!) Ryan Postlethwaite 20:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you happen to know offhand when the policy was changed? WP:U just says "established" but that'll mean something rather different a year from now... — coelacan — 20:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to date, but I know when it was changed, the software was changed at the same time so usernames with @ couldn't actually be created. You could trawl through the history! (I would but I've got very limited internet connection). Ryan Postlethwaite 20:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well, then basically we just don't block these usernames. — coelacan — 20:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

wp:aiv

Oh, sorry about that, I wasn't aware that the bots read particular templates. I don't like to use vandal templates when the activities are not really vandalism (such as name problems). I'll use userlinks from now on. Thanks for letting me know. Corvus cornix 21:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

TfD notice

Only because I saw that you have used it at least once, I've nominated {{db-product}} for deletion at templates for deletion due to its misleading nature regarding products and A7. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Matthew Oakley

This isn't like me at all, but I'm going to ask for clemency. The guy had a couple of good edits, some time away and then some vandalism (how did you find it, btw? I thought I'd reverted it all!). With some care, he could become a useful contributor. Would you consider unblocking? If he comes back to vandalise, I'll look silly, but he could always vandalise as an anon... and I'm keen on trying to retain him as a useful contributor. --Dweller 16:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, he's going to be indef-blocked for username anyway, because he can't play Matthew Oakley. Normally I'd have left account creation enabled, but the vandalism convinced me to turn it off. Do you want me to change it to a {{usernameblock}} and enable account creation? I'm willing to do so, if that's what you'd like. — coelacan — 16:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be kind. Up to you... you've more experience in this than I do... I just stack em up at AIV, you're one of the folks that knocks em down! lol. --Dweller 16:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. Have fun with that one. =P — coelacan — 16:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What'd the copyright status be on this image?

Just another quick query; what would the copyright be on this image (http://www.chemistry.msu.edu/Portraits/images/ingoldc.jpg), and if it's not available, are there any others that'd qualify? ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ 17:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not, but i think it'd be a good image to illustrate his page; Christopher Kelk Ingold ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ 18:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems that John D. Roberts was the photographer . The information was supposedly here, but the ultra-reliable aspx can't provide the page. ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ 18:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Block of 81.78.68.197 (talk · contribs)

I was looking at that report and it doesn't look quite like vandalism, more like a clumsy attempt to introduce a new article on someone with the same name. —dgies_c 06:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like pure vandalism to me. Google says there is no "Jade Goody" who wrote a book called "A Beautiful Pig", nor any "Beautiful Pig" winning a Booker Prize, nor any Jade Goody winning a Booker Prize. They do have the unblock template if they want to use it, and they're getting the orange bars, because they've blanked the page already. ··coelacan 06:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe your nonsense detector is more sensitive than mine... —dgies_c 06:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked one more thing too, there's no Jade Goody who writes for The Economist. So imo that seals it. ··coelacan 07:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

On closer examination, it's definitely a load of horseshit. —dgies_c 07:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Image thing

No thanks, i've already resized the image myself :-) ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ 06:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops! Sorry, i'll change it. I think i copied and pasted it from somewhere. ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ 08:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the last two blocks, it seems like they would never stop. Keep up the good work! --Nehrams2020 08:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I usually do it with other templates, but have been forgetting to do it with the vandalism ones recently. Oh well, thanks for the tip. --Nehrams2020 08:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I went to bed for the night. Too much vandal fighting and early school classes. Yeah, every once in a while I'll look at the recent changes and show IP addresses only. But I revert vandalism on a lot of the hundreds of pages in my watchlist everyday. --Nehrams2020 20:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

ANI block

Thank you. --Dweller 09:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately I expect I won't be the last to have to do this. But yeah, it was about time you brought it back to ANI. ··coelacan 09:14, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

AVI report

I gave the final warning, then realised that another user had already placed a final warning on the user's talk page, as my warning was the second final warning, I decided to file a report. Aiyda Smaiyda 17:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

my mistake, sorry Aiyda Smaiyda 17:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

123456677899djahgiduahbmrhbebht (talk · contribs)

Hey, I may be missing something but given this account doesn't seem to have edited, did you mean to disable account creation and autoblock their IP address? The name is nonsense but that kinda seems a bit harsh... WjBscribe 19:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Check the block log. I misfired the first time, unblocked, and reblocked allowing account creation and without autoblock. I also made sure that no active autoblock on any IP had been initiated in the meantime. Should have all taken place within a few minutes. Did I overlook something when fixing it? ··coelacan 20:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't seem to have lifted this autoblock:

• 18:39, April 27, 2007, Coelacan (Talk | contribs | block) blocked #481048 (expires 18:39, April 28, 2007, account creation blocked) (Autoblocked because your IP address was recently used by "123456677899djahgiduahbmrhbebht". The reason given for 123456677899djahgiduahbmrhbebht's block is: "{{usernameblock}}".) (Unblock)

It still listed by the autoblock finder tool . WjBscribe 20:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Well that's really weird. I checked the autoblock tool with that username once and nothing came up. =( ··coelacan 20:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Another weird thing is I had to unblock twice in order to change the block. Even though the log shows unblocked at 18:39, I couldn't reblock to change the parameters. Anyway, thanks for showing me that. Maybe there's a lag in the autoblock tool? ··coelacan 20:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think autoblocks show up until after someone tries to edit with the IP and is actually autoblocked. Did you lift any autoblocks after the unblock of the account? Not sure about the unblock glitch though. WjBscribe 21:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

When I first checked (probably close to 18:43), I saw no autoblock to lift. Now I'm a mite confused about what exactly happened. I have now lifted the autoblock though. ··coelacan 21:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I know you did :-) (lifted autoblocks are crossed out on the tool ). Don't worry about it - no one complained about being autoblocked. Guess its worth checking the tool every now and again to see what shows up against our accounts (and letting each other know if we see an autoblock that looks odd from another admin)... WjBscribe 21:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Although with a name like that, I do expect that their new account will be vandalism-only. ;-) ··coelacan 21:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Diffs on AN3

Fixed. Thanks for catchintg that. MSJapan 02:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank You

Thank you for providing me links and information on how to properly report someone who violates 3RR. This was the first time I've ever seen a need to report a user for it, and I appreciate your clarifications. MelicansMatkin 04:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Once again, thanks MelicansMatkin 06:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Will do MelicansMatkin 07:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

My 3RR report

From WP:3RR#What_is_a_revert.3F: An editor does not have to perform the same revert on a page more than three times to breach this rule; all reverts made by an editor on a particular page within a 24 hour period are counted.

Thanks for reviewing this. FeloniousMonk 06:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Not that it matters much now, but I just saw your question on Feloniousmonk's talk page, and as a matter of fact I was not aware of the 3 revert rule until after I had broken. After that, I tried very carefully to avoid breaking it, but figured I was going to spend time in the penalty box for it in any case. Frjohnwhiteford 03:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for declining the misleading report regarding 3rr. I had to reach my 3rr limit due to the group trolling activity in that particular article. From the diffs you can see that I am just adding back cited content with reputed sources. Thanks once again. Praveen 19:16, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

If you see the history of editing, I am not the only one who is reverting the "cited content removal". User Venu62 reverted it. Even though he has not reverted, User Aadal has expressed his opposition to this content removal. These edits are pertaining to Ancient Tamil music's contribution to Carnatic music.

Could you please check the block log of all the users involved in the 'revert war'? Praveen 20:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

you know

i won in both of my arguments, which is why i had been blocked. I was fighting with 3 admins and 4 users. All of them did not want to follow consensus on the project page for the Glock_19 and Walther_P22. I fought strong and was blocked 3 times by admins who were involved in tyhe dispute, even though they claimed they weren't you can see in their editing histories, they were.

I was blocked for calling somoene a vandal, and yet here a user can say I am falsifying information on my page and I am lying about credits??? and there is "no such business as cine group east"

Amazing www.CineGroupEast.com

This person also goes on to claim I am 2 other ip addresses and users on wikipedia and yet he shows no proof, he never has, and never will, because my first visit here was to fix an article on the hd110u a camera we use here.

I'd expect a block, but you know, it's wikipedia so no one really cares about rules, they just find a punching bag and jump on the bandwagon. It's so much easier to fook with a person who is making waves and trying to do the right thing if you see other people doing it.

That is my entire issue.

CINEGroup 20:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

No comment yet at all regarding this? It's amazing how an editor can go to an admin and say "He called me a vandal" and I'm blocked for 24 hours, yet osmoene can say I post false information on my page, I'm a banned user, I don't own a business and I'm lying about it all and they can walk away clean. CINEGroup 20:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

You were blocked for the behaviour outlined in this archived thread, and for 3RR as outlined in this closed thread. What exactly do you take issue with, in regards to these blocks? And are you asking that Ispy1981 be blocked for questioning whether your userpage is accurate? ··coelacan 21:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

blocked by dina, and within minutes of the block the article was reverted, MiFeinberg and asmas10 was labeled a vandal and the article was reverted to MY edit BY the admin and the article was LOCKED. As Seen here Glock_19 and Walther_P22. It took my blocks (Which 3rr is not considered in effect when reverting clear vandalism, as it was defined by the talk pages on those 2 articles.)

Dina claimed she had no conflict of interest in the article, yet, go read her talk page, her, Asmas10 and ISpy, MiFeinberg are all very good buddies doing this to a number of users on wikipedia. CINEGroup 21:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

He's not asking, he is telling. Big difference. Yes, I take great offsense to it, read it in it's entirety. He is not questionging anything, he is making a statement that is not true and presenting it to others as if he had diligently researched it, which obviously, he didn't. This is the kind of bs editing that people should be getting warnings for. This is ISpy playing a game on wikipedia but I guess as usual, your a bandwagon admin, just jumping in when others are already bashing and you spend no time actually looking into the truth for yourself. CINEGroup 21:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

read this very very very well especially the email part: and notice, I posted that and told SWATJester who would show up , and guess whop did? Guess who left me a warning a few minutes on a different user account?

I just look dumb. CINEGroup 21:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I offered my assistance but if you're going to come here to insult me then I'm not interested in helping you. ··coelacan 21:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

btw want to see all 4in action including the admin?

bang bang bang bang.... Or do you think this is totally NORMAL for non sock accounts that just HAPPEN to follow each otehr around wikipedia and edit the exact same stuff? ALL within 10 minutes of each other, or do you really believe theyre are all at home talking on the telephone hahahaha.

CINEGroup 21:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. I offered my assistance but if you're going to come here to insult me then I'm not interested in helping you. ··coelacan 21:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

and you never were interested in the first place. what separates a real admin from a joke admin is what they do with their responsibilites. I've shown you all the evidence, now which kind of admin are you. CINEGroup 21:34, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not have any obligations toward you or anyone here. I am a volunteer, and this is my hobby. My only responsibility as an admin is to not actively abuse the "protect", "delete", and "block" buttons. The extent to which I involve myself in any particular discussion or dispute is entirely my prerogative, and my interest in your problems has dropped to zero. Good bye. ··coelacan 21:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

CRBR

User: CRBR Uh, Hello?! I just wanted to say, I had resources. But User:MelicansMatkin deleted them. So just pointing out, if theirs someone to blame, its him! Thanks for your time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CRBR (talk • contribs).

I actually did. Just the user kept deleting the source. Then he's blaming me that I didn't have any source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CRBR (talk • contribs).

AN/I

That sure was some unnecessary disruption. Thanks for finally fixing it all. Picaroon (Talk) 23:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, if I did, I was just lucky and fast. I still don't get how the GreenJoe thing showed up twice. But I see it's now problem solved for a while. ··coelacan 23:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Image use

Hi There, I see you have been having loads of fun with your new adminship! Can images from other wikis be used here? I want to add this to the article on Widukind and the permissions on the image page say it is in the public domain. If so, does it need to be uploaded to our wiki or can it be linked directly to our page. Thanks!--killing sparrows 01:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi killing sparrows! I guess WjBscribe has already answered your question. I'll go into exhausting detail. =D If you find any images on other Wikmedia projects that have the Commons: logo, then the image is already on Commons and there will be a link near the Commons logo to the image's page there, in this case, Commons:Image:Widukind2 b.jpg. You just use them as though they are already on Misplaced Pages under that image name; see Commons:COM:FAQ#Technical questions. If you find an image on another Wikimedia project that isn't on Commons yet, but has a license that's libre as explained at Commons:COM:L, then you can move it over by basically following the guide at Misplaced Pages:Moving images to the Commons (if you don't speak the language on the other project, you don't have to figure out how to tag the old image for deletion though). ··coelacan 03:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually I guess Misplaced Pages:Wikimedia Commons is clearer than Commons:COM:FAQ#Technical questions. ··coelacan 03:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Cool. I've already put the image in the article. I want to add other images from de to en for German articles and some are not on Commons so I'll go to the pages you mentioned and read up on the procedure. I have an adoptee who edits on de and I've been helping copyedit her translations to en.wiki. What fun!--killing sparrows 04:13, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Carnatic music disputes and the larger issues

Hi, there had been serious problems in reolving a number of issues in a host of articles. Carnatic music is just one of them. Please see the archived discussions in Carnatic music and you'll see that many editors (more than 8-10) have come at different times to fix the problems in the carnatic music page, but just a few of the editors are using group reverting tactics and thwarting any efforts to improve the article and they seem to project a narrow view. I've provided many authentic references including inscriptional evidences but in the name of 'content dispute' they are resorting to group-reverts. I had spent literally hundreds of hours and all have been nullified by this group of editors. I would be interested in RFC, or any other dipute resolution mechanisms (we tried this earlier as well!!), but the 3-4 editors continue to push their POV, instead of promoting NPOV. It is not just in Carnatic music it is happening, it happens in numerous other pages. The editors pushing for a POV in my view are - Sarvagnya and usually KNM, Srikris, and occasionally one or two more. Praveen may be trying to 'fight' alone now and Venu62 may be trying to 'fight' alone another time etc. Sarvagnya and his friends don't seem to appreciate that the contributions and content disputes are to be constructively worked out. Sorry for my long message, but I would greatly appreciate if you can advise the best way to solve this problem.--Aadal 04:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm a little busy at the moment; I will get back to you soon. ··coelacan 04:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you keep an eye on Asahi Shimbun?

I would think that DDRG's comments about his block should be indicative of his attitude towards the situation, and also a clear indicator of why this problem is never going to be resolved without intervention. MSJapan 05:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Tendentious editing and 3RR at passive smoking

Hi - I saw your warning to 124.168.82.43 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) regarding his/her edit-warring at passive smoking. S/he has continued to make the same reversion, and is now up to 4 reverts in <24 hours, all of which have been reverted by various users. I've reported him/her at the 3RR noticeboard, but if you're around it may be quicker if you take a look. Sorry to bug you. MastCell 16:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Never mind... it's been taken care of. Sorry to bother. MastCell 18:20, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was out. Glad to see it's handled now though. ··coelacan 18:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Strike outs

How about if I change the text that was struck out to a version where it doesn't have issues with trying to circumvent the truth by using "allegedly" and PoV everywhere? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fnagaton (talk • contribs) 19:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

Out of curiosity...

...did you get an "edit conflict" here? That's a bug we keep complaining about. (Don't worry, I know it wasn't intentional... I've been yelled at over this same thing) Antandrus (talk) 21:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow! No, no edit conflict. In fact, I was using the little + sign to make a completely new section. I thought the software was supposed to handle the append automatically. =( ··coelacan 21:50, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Criticism sections

Hi Coelacan, sorry to bother you. I have a quick question about criticism sections. I have an anon IP (from Poland) arguing that "criticism of criticism does not belong in articles" on talk gender studies and talk feminism. As I understand policy the IP user is incorrect about this. I've quoted the essay on Misplaced Pages:Criticism#Neutral_point_of_view: ""If there are valid counter-arguments to the criticisms, then these must be fairly included." Am I in the wrong here?--Cailil 22:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right. Disallowing rebuttals would enforce an arbitrary limit on the extent of WP:NPOV. Per NPOV we have to show all significant perspectives that can be reliably sourced (note "significant", we do not need to give undue weight to fringe views, and some for some very fringe views, any coverage more than zero is undue). ··coelacan 23:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Coelacan, sorry to complicate things a bit more but Cailil clearly misrepresented my position. I didn't say that criticism of criticism doesn't belong in articles. I said that criticism of criticism specifically doesn't belong in criticism sections of articles, particularly when the criticism in question has a Misplaced Pages article of its own, where the criticism of that particular criticism natively belongs. In addition, a sentence that Cailil omitted when quoting Misplaced Pages:Criticism#Neutral_point_of_view expressly limits the scope of the quoted statement to "criticism articles" (i.e. separate articles created with the purpose of documenting exisiting notable criticism of a topic). I basically agree with this policy (except for my reservation about the "valid counter-arguments" wording) but it says nothing about criticism sections of articles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.24.119.127 (talk) 13:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

User:83.24.119.127 I don't believe I did misrepresent either your position or the guideline. I don't agree that the guideline is "expressly limitted" to criticism articles as I have noted on the talk gender studies page. I understand the removal of balancing views from the criticism section to be the same as saying 'criticism of criticism does not belong' in these articles. (Perhaps in my first post here I should have used the words "to paraphrase" rather than inverted commas as they were not precisely your formula of words). I have recommended you request comment and if this issue excercises you so please go a head and RFC, I am more than happy to abide by consensus--Cailil 23:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your handling of COFS

He was a problem user very frequently. Thanks for what you have done.--Fahrenheit451 22:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this OK

Hi there, It seems that User:Matthew Yeager is offering to adopt nearly every person on the list of users awaiting adoption and I see from comments on his talk page that he was warned about using some kind of a bot to deliver welcome messages. He is on the list of users offering to adopt, but every one of them? I have been starting some conversations on the adoption talk page about getting in touch with people who have been waiting, revitalizing the program and such and others talking about changing the template to list potential adoptees in chrono order but nothing by this person, no comments or announcement about these messages, nothing. I left a message on his talk page but I wonder if this is something that shoud be dealt with more swiftly. Thanks!--killing sparrows 04:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had prior dealings with Matthew- I'll have a word. He's very er - "enthusiastic". But this is a really bad idea... WjBscribe 04:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

{edit conflict) He's probably going to get swamped. Anthony.bradbury and I were doing something like this at a much slower pace last month. Keep in mind that most of those users are never going to reply; they sign up and then they disappear. I was just going around and removing adoptme userboxes from users who'd been gone for several weeks; I was assuming they'd add them again if they ever return. This is probably the somewhat more polite and somewhat less sane way to do it. I don't know what to tell you except try to convince him not to do this again. ··coelacan 04:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I left him a note and so did WJB, I think a few users have already accepted. I'll watch and if he gets swamped try and help him out.

Talk:Matt Sanchez

Hey, I'm going to be offline for a while and was hoping you could keep a vague eye on this page for me. I've had to edit protect the article due to edit warring and WP:BLP concerns. The subject edits Misplaced Pages as Bluemarine. It seems he is unhappy with the amount of detail in his article about his early life, when he was pornstar and escort in the early 90s (especially the M/M aspects of this). It does seem to be rather dominating the article for 5 years of his life. I've started discussions but will be away for a few hours. Could you possibly keep an eye to make sure things don't get heated? WjBscribe 05:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Will do. ··coelacan 05:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that. So we're acting for the "the far right wing" are we? Never been accused of that before. I'm a little annoyed that Mr Sancez has yet to participate in the talkpage discussion after all that. WjBscribe 04:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, if I was still keeping my list of insults, that would be a new one, I think. Hopefully Matt is taking a bit of time to cool down. ··coelacan 07:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow- you gotta feel sorry for the guy... WjBscribe 02:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Steven Plaut

Thanks for your message. I have replied oon my own talk page, as well, noting that I had intended to submit the same checkuser/sockpuppet request. Whatever Jpgordon found, I am certain that these are linked accounts. I am sure that they also linked to User:Truthwinsout, who earlier made similar edits. In fact, they are very likely Plaut himself, or his associates; and probably linked to the User:Runtshit vandal who persistently defaces pages with abuse of me and others. RolandR 14:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

RFA thanks

Thank you, Coelacan, for your constructive comments in my recent RFA, which passed with 86 support, 8 oppose, and 5 neutral !votes. I will keep in mind all your suggestions and/or concerns, and will try to live up to your standards. Please, if you have any comments or complaints about my actions as an administrator, leave a note on my talk page, and I will respond as soon as I possibly can, without frying my brain, of course. Thank you once more, · AndonicO

Really? I'm allowed to do that?!?! ;-) · AndonicO 17:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Well then, in that case... · AndonicO 17:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

CineGroup

Please stop defending the blanking produced by a blocked user, whose death threats were made justifying his 3RR violation here. I have restored the text before CineGroup began his revert war; it probably should be shorter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If you reverse my edit, done explicitly on the ground that CineGroup's revert war should not stand, then you do support him. Will you accept mediation (I think the Cabal; WP:Mediation's efforts are too easily torpedoed)? An offer is on the talk page; if it expresses doubt of editors' good faith, it's because no-one has acted in good faith. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply regarding Walther/Glock debate

Hello Coelacan, I'm aware of Griot's activities, as I have been monitoring the movements of members involved in this argument. I assure you that, whilst I am utterly sick and tired of this discussion, I intend to see it through to the end. The only way Misplaced Pages will ever be respected as an encyclopedic resource is if this project is handled in a professional manner and, as I've already stated in the discussion, Encyclopedia Britannica would certainly not have a "See Virginia Tech massacre" section at the bottom of a page pertaining to the Walther P22 or Glock 19 firearms. This one link (and others like it) determine whether or not Misplaced Pages can be relied upon as a professional educational resource, or whether it is perceived as a bunch of trivia and headlines tacked together and deemed important by the people who edit the articles. Cheers. Gamer Junkie 22:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Anacapa is back (again)

Hi Coelacan, I'm really sorry to bug you yet again but I just spotted the return of Anacapa (talk · contribs). As before they had been using a number of IPs during march and April but last night (April 30th) they reactivated their user account. They are engaged in a subtle POVpush on Talk:Shunning (where they have broken WP:AGF arguing that some editor are apologists for that practice) and are making the familiar long winded contriburtions. I've updatyed the report and I'm wondering if there's enough evidence to reopen at CN and should I engage Anacapa on their talk page directly (ie asking them if they are drop in editor)? I've just dropped a line to Durova about this too--Cailil 00:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Cailil. I think it best if you do not approach them with the question. In my opinion you have already demonstrated it to be the case, so there's no reason to tip your hand. I will look into the actual edits being made. We want to propose a ban when the problem is blatant so that consensus will be strong. Keep in touch here; I'll go watch the user for a while. ··coelacan 11:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You know Coelacan that's probably good advice becuase I missed it. I opened a CSN before reading this and I've also dropped a line to Anacapa. I uncovered bullying by them of User:SecondSight and a recent edit war at Shunning. This might not have been the best way to go about it I realize but I hope the evidence speaks for itself. Sorry if I've created a mess--Cailil 13:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Coelacan, I have to admit I respect but don't really understand armedblowfish's response. If things don't work out I will suspend the request pending further evidence and further engagement with Anacapa. However I think it will be a while before they return. If they've seen my question on their talk page they may avoid using that account totally, or they'll wait for the CSN to close and then come after me (but I doubt they choose this option). Thanks for your advice, I'll review the situation tonight--Cailil 18:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC) Hi again, I'm taking your advice. I've made a suggestion that if Anacapa and their IPs are a)identified as 1 user and b) warned against disruption I will withdraw the request--Cailil 22:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Glock 19

In my opinion, the matter of whether to link to the Virginia Tech massacre was not decided at the Glock 19 article. I see you've only been on Misplaced Pages for two weeks. Misplaced Pages being what it is, there is not official means of deciding these things. I submitted this matter in good faith to the mediation cabal. Let's see what disinterested parties have to say about it. Otherwise, we just keep chasing our tails... Griot 00:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocking Pwok

Could you please look at what User:Bluemarine put on User:Pwok user page? Then could you please explain why this behavior results in blocking for Pwok, but no repercussions for Bluemarine? There's a real double-standard at work here. Some consistency would be much appreciated. Aatombomb 01:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

That was a couple of days ago, and Bluemarine has been warned for civility in the meantime. It was not, in and of itself, such a vicious attack as to be a blockable offense. If you honestly compare what Pwok said on the article talk page just before I blocked, I think you'll agree the comments are a couple of degrees of magnitude apart. ··coelacan 07:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is really a joke. The Sanchez article is a travesty. Those who have worked on it are not editors, they are p.r. agents and censors. This whole thing has been a real eye-opener. Of course there is a double standard at work, when Misplaced Pages allows the subject of a negative article to edit that article, and cherry-picks blogs to insure that unverified (and unverifiable) material from a Christian evangelical ex-gay blog is included, while factual audio interviews are excluded.

Blogs that favor the controversial subject of the article were included, while the most authoritative source isn't even mentioned. Misplaced Pages "editors" solicited point-by-point comments, and then removed those comments when they weren't to their liking.

The "editors" of the article, which concerns a conservative spokesman who turned out to be a porn actor and a prostitute, have altered the article to refer to the reports of his prostitution -- which have be definitively PROVEN -- as "rumors," even though the article's subject acknowledged his prostitution in a nationally broadcast radio program and in an article under his own name in Salon.com. At the same time, they insured that material from an unverified "interview" by an evangelical "ex-gay" blog was included.

When I and others pointed out that none of this is true, one of the editors, a hack who goes by the name "Elonka," replied that Misplaced Pages is not in the business of telling the truth. That's for damn sure!

I never knew that Misplaced Pages was in the business of running a Nixonian whitewashing operation that flushes the truth down the toilet and calls it "neutrality." Wow, you people are scary good at telling lies. How much do you people get under the table for this sort of thing, anyway? Pwok 08:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply regarding Walther debate

Thanks for contacting me. I don't have a preference if it is mentioned or not. My concern, which was addressed, was that the format should remain consistent. If you do one for Glock, you should do it for Walther. Someone addressed this by letting me know:

The formats differ because people are constantly editing, reverting, and re-reverting them. While there is no strict guide for where they should be, a separate 'trivia' section is wholly inappropriate. It should be mentioned under usage, history, or some similar heading.

I disagree with that, but if that's the way it is I can accept it. Still, there are a ton of articles with trivia sections. :) Pgrote 01:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about the debates as well. I put my late votes in. --Gloriamarie 01:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

LGBT Wikiproject

I need your help sorting things out now that Dev is on a Wikibreak for her exams and Satyr is not back til May 8. In light of this I have:

1. extended the deadline for nominations at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject LGBT studies/Coordinator/May 2007 until May 5
2. assumed responsibility for running those elections

This should give time for new nominees and some publicity of the event. Unfortunately, the Newsletter wasn't even started until a few minutes ago, so I'd appreciate you help getting it up to a standard where we can send it out first thing tomorrow.
I am looking forward to the coordinator team taking over :-). WjBscribe 20:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've fucked it up so it needs be redelivered to the people I've done anyway. gr... WjBscribe 02:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me know when your happy with it. I'll work from the top and you can go from the bottom? WjBscribe 02:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No I posted it in the wrong place on the first page and then copy-and-pasted. Sigh. I always mess up copy-and-paste. I once sent off a job application full of praise for how wonderful the competition were.... WjBscribe 03:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we're done. Sigh. Thanks for the help :-). WjBscribe 03:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Help with consensus issue?

Hello and sorry for causing a 3r block. I fully admit the circumstances, which have been extremely frustrating. I would like your suggestions on how best to proceed in gaining consensus in this particlar situation: As a student of Elizabethean history and a theatre professional for 30 years, I have come to investigate and participate in the Shakespeare Authorship Question. The frustration I am experiencing is that a group of editors - all vehement Stratfordians who oppose the very existance of the subject - insist on comparing the debate to Flat Earthers or Holocost survivors, thus labling it as a "fringe theory" and a "non question" and using those labels to delete any material that furthers the debate. When a debate has so many notable proponents and , I don't think it is acceptable to label it "fringe". I thought that consensus was supposed to be a 'give and take' as you build. Unfortuantely, on the pages William Shakespeare and Shakespearean authorship question, these editors, who are clearly Stratfordian, are using the "consensus" standard to create a block, insisting on an all or nothing approach to their edits. For example, the group has recently forced a "consensus" of a particular version and then upon gaining consensus, they inserted a different version that is clearly different and further limited the information given to Wiki readers. The discussion is here at . In fairness, I will add that several of the more minor changes were talked about on another talk page for another article, and somewhat of a consensus consensus was achieved. However a major change has been added that is not being defended. Here is the offending edit . If you were an average wiki reader and wanted a quick introduction to the authorship debate, wouldn't you want to know who the clear frontrunner is? To delete this information and only present the Stratfordian POV I think breaks the spirit of Widipedia. How would you suggest I proceed? Thank you - and again - sorry for causing you extra work.Smatprt 05:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, sorry I've been in and out lately and haven't looked at this yet. Let me go block some vandals and then take a look over the details here, and I'll get back to you soon (I'll reply on this page). ··coelacan 05:42, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much. I want to add that there are a number of decent editors that are not part of this. AndyJones and AlabamaBoy have, at least, tried to achieve consensus by honest give and take. Nunh-huh, Dreamguy, Paul B and Bishonen, however, are not even trying - only issuing ultimatums. I tried again to engage them today and they all refused to even answer , except with added scorn. I believe at least one is an administrator. Smatprt 05:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Today, I am now seeing even simple MOS edits reverted.Smatprt 05:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Image use

Hi Coelacan, Long story short, an adoptee asked a general question about fair use. One response was a complete quote of the policy. I gave this simplified answer...

I'll give you a more basic answer, less complete but simpler. An image may qualify as fair use if used...

• To illustrate the object in question.
• Where no free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information.

An example might be a picture of a box of Cheerios. The box design/graphics is copyrighted and you can't copy the design for your new bargain breakfast cereal, Cheeperios, but you can use a low resolution image of the original box to illustrate the Cheerios article. The same 'fair use rationale' lets us use a low-resolution picture of the cover of a Harry Potter book or Star Wars video to illustrate those articles. One thing to remember about fair use is that fair use images can only be used on articles, you cannot use fair use images on user pages. If you have a specific image in mind, point a link to it and I'll take a look.--killing sparrows 14:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I just went to the Cheerios article and there is indeed an image of the box there, but the image is tagged 'public domain'! This is wrong. The person who took a picture of the box should have labelled it 'fair use'. Tammi, you can see that the various permissions for images are pretty complicated. if you have a specific image in mind it would be best to give us a link to it. There is also Misplaced Pages talk:Copyrights/Can I use... page if we can't find an answer. I hope this helps you. Cheers!--killing sparrows 14:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Question. Was I right that the Cheerios article image should be tagged fair use rather than public domain? Thanks!--killing sparrows 14:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct in everything you've said here. The Cheerios image, by the way, is what's known as a derivative work, and the information depicted therein is still copyrighted by General Mills. Since it is copyrighted and not libre-licensed, it can only be used under fair use. You should go ahead and change the license tag on that image to {{product-cover}} or {{fair use in}}, if you're feeling up to dredging up a fair use rationale. Or tag it for WP:CSD#I6 if you'd rather not. ··coelacan 07:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh wow, we actually have a {{cereal box cover}} template... ··coelacan 07:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was somewhat embarrassed that the example I used To explain the concept (plucked out of thin air) turned out to be tagged wrong! I'll use product cover. And as far as bad jokes go, well...--killing sparrows 07:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The person who uploaded the Cheerios photo also did the same for Grape-Nuts (which I will also retag), and has added photos to three other articles. The 'summary' for each photo is a link to a website for a photography studio. Uploader User:Diaphanous has no user page and no talk entries, is this Something Posing As Meat?--killing sparrows 08:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

COFS and CSI LA

I have been investigating the block and editing of COFS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and CSI LA (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I have doublechecked the checkuser results which do indeed show some editing from shared ips. I have examined some of their edits and find them aggressive, but not that disruptive. The exception seems to be this exchange where it got pretty nasty. Obviously these are editors closely associated with Scientology which maintains a sort of headquarters in Los Angeles. CSI LA admits to being on staff. Anyway, I don't think an indefinite block is justified for a single instance of evading a block. How about shortening it to a week? Then taking them to dispute resoluton if you feel there is enough of a conflict of interest or other problem to justify action. The checkuser results are clear enough, but do not show a sustained pattern of using the socks for nefarious purposes. Fred Bauder 18:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the block review. As I initially said on ANI, I am not averse to reducing tbe blocks, but as there appeared to be clear abuse, I wanted to give time for matters to be clarified (intended as literally "indefinite", not necessarily "permanent"). I don't actually follow the discussion in the Scientology areas, so I wouldn't be one to bring up dispute resolution; I'll try to get input from those who do know the issues. As to these blocks, do you propose that both accounts be unblocked, or just the main one (User:COFS)? ··coelacan 00:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

CSI LA is the one I'm talking to. I think they may be two different people anyway. So I guess both. Fred Bauder 01:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have asked the person who filed the RFCU to comment here, just so we'll know whether we're overlooking anything really horrible first, as I expect them to be familiar with the case. ··coelacan 01:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I happened to notice behavior which led me to believe that there was one person based on general editing style and the peculiar pattern of editing. As to what if any punishment should be applied I had planned to leave up to the editors who have dealt with CSI LA/COFS the most. Would it be ok to invite their opinions here?

The manner of discussion employed by CSI LA/COFS doesn't bother me on a WP:NPA level, but others have made complaints. Anynobody 01:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if others are more familiar, please get their attention. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not overlooking anything really terrible before I reduce the blocks to one week. This isn't about "punishment" per se, as blocks are supposed to be preventative and not punitive. The CSI LA account doesn't seem to have gone further than the "Goebbels" comment, and I'm not looking for anyone to just air dirty laundry here but if there's a pattern of abuse from the COFS account that's not already reflected in the block log for 3RR, let me know. ··coelacan 01:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I have notified the editors I think might be able to provide examples, and put together a couple of examples I've seen of COFS and CSI LA, beginning with the latter:

CSI LA

• Accused a neutral sysop of taking a side for enforcing a one week block of Misou given you probably have access to checkuser, when you say Misou is on that IP I believe you.

1. CSI LA advocating unblock of Misou, calls neutral sysop anti-Scientologist for not unblocking
2. same as last diff but on WP:ANI.
3. CSI LA advances notion that Misou was "set up"

COFS

• The Sunday Times printed a statement given to them by the CoS, the entire article is enclosed in a pair of quotation marks indicating it is the words of Scientology rather than the Sunday Times (kind of like when Penthouse published the Unabomber manifesto). COFS insists they are the words of the paper itself, and reflect a retraction of a previous story without saying as much.

• He tends to self rationlize ways that Hubbard's biography can reconcile the exagerrations with the actual history:

1. COFS, using OR to reconcile Hubbard's story vs. how the government really works

Anynobody 03:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC) updated 05:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, I remember the Misou thing on ANI. Pretty far out, as is the Sunday Times stuff. But, okay, what I see here is some wackyness that can be handled through normal dispute resolution if necessary (if consensus doesn't already favor ignoring the fringe stuff). I should have been more specific. What I'm trying to ask is, is there abuse of the sort that the blocking policy covers, that is not already reflected in past block logs? ··coelacan 05:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please understand I mean no disrespect to the person or persons in question when I say that yes indeed it does. If there is more than one person, I think they are using meatpuppet tactics. If there were really two people, and they knew they were on the same IP they could have mentioned it when trying to assure me that each account is that of an individual. I think the whole thing is a load of fecal matter either way, one way it's one person with multiple accounts the other it's multiple people supporting each other in a non-intended way (I really doubt this is what Jimbo had in mind). Anynobody 05:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, I do agree. Puppetry already noted. At least a one-week block for that, and we'll keep close eye on their behavior in the future to make sure that they aren't over-represented. See my comment #on puppetry below. ··coelacan 05:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The forgoing is part of why I think there are two people, COFS seems to be off in the fog, while CSI LA seems more or less in touch. I will spend more time looking at both of them. I have restarted a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#COFS_indef_blocked. Fred Bauder 04:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that as well, which is why I didn't submit the WP:RFCU in early April. It occured to me later that since COFS is the primary account he has time to collect himself and sound more grounded when posting as CSI LA. Anynobody 04:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

As to the puppetry, I think it's safe to say that whether or not these are one person, or two people in the same building working together on a POV here, they should not be voting together, or anything like that. Policy does allow for certain acceptable uses of puppets, though. As long as they aren't treated as "oh look, two separate and independent people agree with X", then they can function here under policy. ··coelacan 05:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what decision the arbitration committee would make should this matter come before them. But I think an indefinite ban on the whole bunch requires that level of deliberation. Fred Bauder 12:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

As long as you're including "community discussion on WP:CSN" as "that level of deliberation", I agree with you. I hope I made clear numerous times that the blocks were until this was discussed further. Anyway, I asked for other evidence that might have been overlooked and besides the puppetry I think the other matters can be handled by dispute resolution, so I'm going to go ahead and reduce the blocks. ··coelacan 18:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Proof?

What proof has been provided to show that it is two or more people as they claim? This is so against WP:SOCK that it makes me wonder why we have WP:RFCU if a person can just e-mail and say it's several people on the same IP. Again, if he/they were not up to anything subversive why not simply have said so before the WP:RFCU went through? If you are inclined to reduce/remove the block then why not put this before the arbitration committee? I also remind you that the socks were all working together to give the impression several independent editors were giving opinions. Anynobody 18:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There is not proof that they are not the same person. I know this is frustrating because I've been in your position before. But one instance of block evasion does not automatically mean they must be blocked forever. They want second chances; we can AGF one more time for them. From many observations of many disruptive editors, I'll tell you it's likely that this will not be the last time these users are blocked. They do not appear to be here for the purposes of building a collaborative encyclopedia. However, to demonstrate that beyond a reasonable doubt, they'll need Enough Rope. In the meantime, we can be certain that if they are not sockpuppets, they are meatpuppets, and while they should not be prevented from giving opinions, anyone weighing consensus should be informed that they are not acting independently. They will not be able to over-represent consensus in the future. ··coelacan 19:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Anynobody, this matter needs to go before an Arbitration Committee. The verdict of the ArbCom should determine the block length. In the interim, I think it should stay indefinite.--Fahrenheit451 19:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I really think you are jumping the gun by suggesting ArbCom. Note that Fred Bauder, who suggested the block reduction, sits on ArbCom, and his opinion for a second chance would likely be echoed by the others. This is a first offense. Wait and see. Use a user-conduct WP:RFC, or mediation. Keep admins informed of anything blockable. ··coelacan 19:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

O.K. We shall see how things go. I have my own suspicion of what the future course will be.--Fahrenheit451 19:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

coelacan I realize you are trying to remain neutral, so I'm not frustrated at you. (I'm sort of frustrated at myself since I don't think I'm explaining the problem I have very well.)

I agree that under most circumstances a first offense would not be cause to indef block or ban, in this issue however there are several mitigating factors against treating the accounts in question as an editor worthy of WP:AGF.

1. This is not the first offense, it's the first time they were caught. In early April COFS was blocked and this is when I met CSI LA. T
2. The second was when the socks were caught after the second block evasion at the end of April.
3. The third is that yet another WP:SOCK, Misou, is revealed. I haven't finished researching how this account could have been supporting still more socks, at this point we really should check.
4. The requests to unblock are based partially on a misrepresentation (CSI LA saying 1000 members are being affected, that can't be true and also hides the actual number being affected (if there is more than one editor).

It's important that more community discussion be done before unblocking anyone, seriously this is a really weird situation that can not be closed without more investigation. Anynobody 22:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Anynobody, you are very good in letting this sound "caring". Cut off the nice words and there is an intention which can create rancor and could summarize to trolling. Does not build an encyclopedia, that's for sure. Stop your personal attacks on me - that's 3. above - to start with. Thank you. And yes, Anynobody, let's do an investigation! Let's find out where everybody in this place is going to. Misplaced Pages may not be the right place for it. Because this is an encyclopedia, not a club. Say a place and time. Misou 23:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Misou I did care about your opinion, before it was reported that you are also operating in the same IP range as the identified socks (if you'll look at the date on your link you'll see my point). Since you mention the discussion though, why didn't you mention the "shared ip" when we were talking about the COFS/CSI LA issue here: User talk:Misou#? Re comments on...? Anynobody 01:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Feedback on somewhat unusual (?) idea.

Well, i was thinking the other day about when we managed to secure ourselves a somewhat "net exclusive" on the Hermann Lux and Håkon Flood articles, and it led to an interesting idea. Suppose that if i wanted to get some information on a popular chemist or physicist that isn't just small information seen in chemicals books and textbooks and i mailed or contacted the university or establishment they were at to see if they would be able to spare information, and possbly release an image through GFDL or public domain. Now, how exactly would i reference such information, or would APA style references for correspondance suffice?

Personal communication: for email and other 'unrecoverable' data Personal communications are not included in the reference list.
... (R. Smith, personal communication, January 28, 2002). or R. Smith (personal communication, January 28, 2002)...

Regardless of it's "Citeability", would such references be okay for Misplaced Pages? ♥♥ ΜÏΠЄSΓRΘΠ€ ♥♥ 19:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Asahi Shimbun

I'm picking up the sources tomorrow, but will likely not have a chance to look at them until the weekend, though page numbers will make the process a lot easier. However, I'm going to bet that all of the materials are going to be written by Ikuhiko Hata, since 2 out of 3 already are. MSJapan 03:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Kevin Potvin

This is a WP:BLP issue, regarding the edits of a single user, FactsFirst (talk · contribs), repeatedly adding smears against the subject of the article. According to that policy,

"Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."

The user is citing sources, but improperly, cherry-picking pejorative quotes from an especially mean-spirited newspaper editorial, such as "rambling ignoramous," without providing context. By treating it as a regular edit-war, i.e., insisting that we work out a compromise on the talk page and then grovel back to you people to unprotect it, seems a big contradiction with not only the BLP guideline, but also the showy BLP tags intimating that Misplaced Pages takes BLP's seriously. It also implies that I'm equally guilty of edit-warring by reverting this user's additions. FactsFirst's user account, with one exception, is dedicated solely to smearing the subject of this article and s/he has been nothing but patronizing and rude to me; I won't be discussing anything with this user because the assumption of good faith has been spent, and in fact I shouldn't be anyway given the BLP policy quoted above. I'm an experienced user, having been a major contributor to 3 wikiprojects, created dozens of articles, helped to neutralize numerous editing disputes (rather than edit-warring), etc. I'm familiar with this issue because of where I live and decided to take it on because of that, not because I have strong views about the subject (I don't). It may be impersonal on your end, but at some point it's just insulting for me.

I try to read the rules and follow procedures, as onerous as they often are. After going through this time-consuming effort, I'm told that FactsFirst can't be blocked because I didn't use the correct template? According to the blocking policy:

"A variety of template messages exist for convenience, although purpose-written messages are often preferable. "Warning is not a prerequisite for blocking (particularly with respect to blocks for protection) but administrators should generally ensure that users are aware of policies, and give them reasonable opportunity to adjust their behaviour accordingly, before blocking. Users who have been made aware of a policy and have had such an opportunity do not require further warning."

I've gone out of my way to refer this user to the relevant guidelines and policies and have given them numerous warnings on their talk page, including 3RR. I've made the case elsewhere as to why full protection is inappropriate for this article, and was met with administrator inertia and defensiveness, and I'm not about to go through that again because of your arbitrary decision to fully protect it. So far, taking on this article and trying to keep it POV-free has been quite discouraging. I imagine FactsFirst will also be heartened by the fact that the "final warning" template I put on their talk page was meaningless because admins wouldn't support it. I suppose that if no one else gives a shit, I shouldn't either, so I'll try and take the full protection (presumably sans expiry date) as a victory because it's my version that's been protected. bobanny 06:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but the 3RR warning you gave was not at all obvious to me when I looked at their talk page. It was buried in with a lot of other acronyms. And your report did not link to a diff of the warning. You can hardly blame me for not seeing it. The fact is that the article is protected on your version, so you came out lucky. ··coelacan 06:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, you do not necessarily have to work out a "compromise". If you get consensus through an RFC to not include that information at all, then there's no compromise. You just show up at WP:RFPP and show that the community doesn't want that stuff, and "moving forward" just meant verifying that, and you're good to go. ··coelacan 06:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll go have a second look at the specific content that was being added and see what the BLP issues are; brb. ··coelacan 06:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you that "someone called him an ignoramus" is hardly useful encyclopedic material. I'll go weigh in with a comment to that effect if you want, although involving myself in the content dispute means I won't be able to use admin tools. Let me know if you want me to join in on the talk page. ··coelacan 07:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I think I need to step back from this at least for a couple days. You may have sensed that my wiki-exasperation goes beyond this issue. I also made a report at WP:ANI requesting a block, which is still pending, so it'd probably be best to see what decision comes of that, since it would affect consensus building. Once that happens, I'll post a proper RfC and see what comes of it (FactsFirst put the heading on the talk page, but didn't post an actual RfC, from what I can tell). I'll keep you posted of any developments. Thanks for your thoughtful response, and I apologize for being overly dramatic. bobanny 08:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Now another admin is editing it without any justification on the discussion page. In my original request to get this article unprotected, I was indignantly told by two admins that this would be a "serious breach of applicable policies" and "an abuse of the sysop bit". Moreover, "fall," the season, should be lowercase according to WP:MOS. bobanny 18:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

the case for adding more references to Kevin Potvin

Hi, I'm new to Misplaced Pages and thought the Kevin Potvin entry would be a good one to beging working on because I followed the extensive media coverage about this Green Party candidate and found it fascinating. I suspect bobanny may be a personal friend of Mr. Potvin since I didn't consider any of the coverage "mean-spirited," although it all pointed to Mr. Potvin is the author of his own misfortune. I think a couple of things should be kept in mind. This fellow is a politician who, in violation of Misplaced Pages rules, first created his own post as part of a publicity campaign to get elected to city hall. Within that post he inflated his resume. Now, he can dissemble all he likes on the discussion page, but saying "his work appeared in Harpers and the Atlantic" when it was nothing more than a couple of letters is exaggerating his credentials, to put it politely. Most people would consider it lying. Mr. Potvin, a politician, has made his character and his honesty, or lack thereof, a public issue, which is why I think it is important to include the National Post article. The feature writer is disinterested -- there's no indication anywhere that he knows Mr. Potvin, and he comments on the man's writing and public behavour, all of which Mr. Potvin has volunteered for public scrutiny. In addition, at least two other editors would have seen that piece and considered the description fair comment. It passed the lawyer's approval, too. (I was a fiction editor, but I know a little bit about how newspapers work.) This article wasn't the only one to make similar observations, or the only newspaper. Mr. Potvin also said a great many similarly ignorant, foolish things on TV and radio. On the second point, I think it is even more important to include Mr. Potvin's own explanation of how he does journalism (which is defined as the gathering of factual information on behalf of the public) in that it illustrates quite clearly that he is indifferent to the definition of words. His only reference is his own feelings and beliefs. For readers -- many of whom may also be voters -- that is significant information. I'm sorry that I didn't get all the references in. Because I'm new, and still figuring things out, I was adding the contributions in stages. Every time I went to add the links, I found bobanny had erased my contribution. One other point that makes me think bobanny is acting on behalf of Mr. Potvin is that when I tried to maintain consistency in the article either by adding the names of all the authors or removing the only one in the post, bobanny insisted on mentioning only one. I looked it up and realized that he was the writer who did the Globe and Mail article which first caught Mr. Potvin inflating his resume. Then bobanny added something about there being some sort of animosity between the writer and Mr. Potvin. I find that implausible. But having looked at Mr. Potvin's own paper I found more than one article by him claiming that different reporters were out to get him. Clearly, the man doesn't need any help. But for bobanny to have accepted such a silly idea suggests, again, that he may be acting on behalf of Mr. Potvin. As a compromise, perhaps we could just list the Post article in the references? Although I would like to see Mr. Potvin's own words describing his way of doing journalism in the body of the entry. Thanks for taking the time to look at this FactsFirst 02:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)