Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:57, 9 May 2007

Timeline

Your references contradict eachother. ITAR-TASS confirms that he was arrested on 28th, _after_ 2 nights of rioting, which is supported by Estonian media reports. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 14:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that this only proves that Estonian authorities organized this kidnapping, but latter were forced to acknowledge that this man was arrested. Probably they wanted to kill him. Vlad fedorov 09:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

POV

There are no non-Russian sources verifying this. Considering that otherwise Estonian newspapers have followed arrest of Linter very closely and reported every detail, several of these claims are rather questionable.

For example, the claim that "After two hours after his detention Linter appeared in the Mustamäe hospital under an intravenous line." is a lie, he was taken to the hospital because he claimed to have "various ills", he was given a full medical and declared healthy (). Also, the arrest was announced on the same day, not next day (same source, also Russian sources). DLX 19:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, the original source with interview of Marina Linter, weekly Den za Dnjom , specifically mentions that the article is based solely on claims by Marina Linter and although she has promised to present the evidence to the journalist, she has not done so. She claimed to know the name of "psychotropic substance" injected to Linter, but refused to say that, the name of the doctor, but "couldn't remember". The article ends with a statement by journalist, repeating again that Marina has presented no evidence and the story sounds more like a bad spy novel. I couldn't find the story from the website of that weekly, as apparently they don't release full stories there. There are two Estonian translations (, ), but no English one, unfortunately. DLX 20:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read over your arguments again - they are discriminatory at least. Russian and Estonian sources are not reliable? Have ever read "Ilyad"? So, if it is written on ancient Greek it is not realible here? Please, familiarize yourself with WP:RS prior to editing in Misplaced Pages. If you have something to add to the article - add it, but don't prevent other users from doing it. Vlad fedorov 09:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

So far Estonian sources have been very reliable and reported only facts, whereas Russian sources have reported every rumor as a fact, as long as it is defamatory - such as that the Bronze Soldier was sawed into parts, exhumed bodies where thrown out, statue won't be put up again, police attacked peaceful protesters... do I have to continue? DLX 09:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Considering that in Estonia secret services are "preventing manifestations" (see you blog source below) why should we trust to such sources coming from totalitarian Estonian state? Your generalizations on "reliable" Estonaian sources are as ridiculous as your POV pushing in the article. We all seen how your police was beating protesters and by the way a lot of your policemen are writing about beatings in their LiveJournal blogs. Would you deny beatings despite revelations about this by policemen in their blogs? You won't win this dispute by revert war. Vlad fedorov 12:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Not protesters - vandals and criminals. Some of whom were paid to "protest" (the guy responsible for offering money was arrested together with Linter). And there are no "secret services are "preventing manifestations" ", this is not Russia. DLX 12:35, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

As long as I am a lawyer, I could tell you that criminals are sitting in the jail by the definition and couldn't walk on the streets or take part in manifestations. Second, your naming of some people as "criminals" is absolutely antidemocratic pattern of behaviour and is a libel and defamation - law-breaking behaviour. There is presuption of innocence in the Constitution of Estonia and you should abide your constitution, if you are citizen. Only court could name someone as "criminal". It is outrageous that a citizen of a country which names itself as "democratic" violates its own Constitution and behaves like a citizen of totalitarian state. As for "paid", as long as we know Estonia receives large subsidies from EU. So, your reference to "paid", unsupported by any evidence, is a typical "look who's talking" case. Vlad fedorov 12:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I forgot, looters and thieves are heroes in Russia. Sorry, my bad, won't happen again. DLX 12:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not Russian, so I don't understand why you resort to personal attacks on Russians. As far as I remember history, when Estonia was a territory for Teutonic order, aborigenes of these lands also were referred to in Order documents as pagans and bandits. It is sad that you repeat medieval occupier's pattern of behavoir. Vlad fedorov 12:59, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The leader?

I understand that Mr Linter may be one of several "leaders" (or notable activists) representing the movement. --Camptown 10:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

One of several, aye. He's been active for quite a while before NW was founded, of course. Here's a quick peek into his Latvian period: http://www.allaboutlatvia.com/article/604/the-latvian-connection. Edgar Vares-Barbarus 22:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh how nice - blog entry as a source? You must be at big rats with WP:RS. And by the way I like this qoute "In May 2005, the security services prevented a manifestation before the Latvian embassy in Estonia...". In "democratic" countries such as Estonia, secret services are acting to prevent manifestations? Perhaps it should go to Human rights in Estonia. Vlad fedorov 09:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to user checkIP procedure for DLX, probably 194.106.126.242?

I could see that after my dispute with Estonian DLX and subsequent his reverts, out of nowhere anonymous Estonian user appears and sets a new tag without any explanations. Also suddenly Polish users appear out of nowhere. Is it out of Misplaced Pages canvassing? Vlad fedorov 12:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.ripe.net/whois?form_type=simple&full_query_string=&searchtext=194.106.126.242&do_search=Search

% This is the RIPE Whois query server #2. % The objects are in RPSL format. % % Rights restricted by copyright. % See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html % Note: This output has been filtered. % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag % Information related to '194.106.126.240 - 194.106.126.255' inetnum: 194.106.126.240 - 194.106.126.255 netname: ITKOOLITUS descr: IT Koolitus descr: Parnu mnt 139f descr: 11317, Estonia country: EE admin-c: HS901-RIPE tech-c: GK1206-RIPE status: ASSIGNED PA mnt-by: AS5546-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered person: Henn Sarv address: IT Education Ltd. address: Akadeemia tee 21 address: EE0026 Tallinn address: ESTONIA phone: +372 6 397 078 fax-no: +372 6 397 078 e-mail: henn@itedu.ee nic-hdl: HS901-RIPE source: RIPE # Filtered person: Gren Kass address: MicroLink Eesti AS address: Parnu mnt 158 address: 11317 Tallinn address: Estonia phone: +372 6501 720 fax-no: +372 6501 725 e-mail: gren@online.ee nic-hdl: GK1206-RIPE mnt-by: AS5546-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered % Information related to '194.106.96.0/19AS5546' route: 194.106.96.0/19 descr: MicroLink Online descr: Parnu mnt. 158 descr: 11317 Tallinn descr: Estonia origin: AS5546 mnt-by: AS5546-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered % Information related to '194.106.96.0/19AS3249' route: 194.106.96.0/19 descr: MicroLink Online descr: Parnu mnt. 158 descr: 11317 Tallinn descr: Estonia origin: AS3249 mnt-by: ESTPAK-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered

Sorry to disappoint you, but wasn't me - not my IP, too. DLX 12:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And this is a thing to be checked. Probably you switched from ADSL to dial-up, right? And by the way, why you then attacked Russians? What is the reason? Vlad fedorov 13:00, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This is my (ie, DLX) IP: 88.196.48.66 13:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC) But please go ahead and call checkIP, you won't believe me anyway. Oh, and I don't have dial-up...

As for the attacking, please go and see irony. Also, you have been constantly attacking Estonia/Estonians - "Estonian authorities organized this kidnapping". In any case, enough of this already. DLX 13:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well it appears form the sources in the article that estonian authorities done that kidnapping. But your attemtps to present your personal attack on Russian users of Misplaced Pages as my attack is laughable. Instead of working on the content you resort to "strong words" and instead of providing the explanations you resort to the accusations of me attacking Estonians? You should have a really big nerve making such attack. I believe that this is really enough for you. Your personal attack one more time, and I would report you on Incident noticeboard. Vlad fedorov 13:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And additionaly, you, yourself gave us the reference to the blog which stated that in Estonia, secret service performs function of preventing manifestations - this is a clear violation of human rights. So we have a good reason not to believe to estonian authorities. Vlad fedorov 13:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

*sigh* Could you please be clearer in your statements? What blog? What secret service? The rioters were dispersed by the regular police - in Russia, I believe it is OMON, who does that. No force was used until rioters attacked the police, trying to break through. In Estonia, "secret service" does not commit murders - neither poisoning with polonium or shooting on the way to home. In case of Linter, it is very clearly in interest to Estonia to treat him well - not kill - and demonstrate his ties with both Russian embassy (,) and (alleged - I doubt they can demonstrate anything) ties with organized crime.

Linter's apartment was searched on 27th April () by KAPO (Kaitsepolitsei, Security Police). The material found was evidence enough to arrest him on the eve of same day (). Next day (April 28th), court allowed to extend the arrest (up to 6 months), as there was evidence of him as an organizer of mass riots (that is probably why some sources have 27th and others 28th). He claimed to have "medical conditions", so he was taken to a hospital and given a full medical. Doctors declared him healthy. Allar Jõks (perhaps Chancellor of Justice?), man known for honesty and being critical of government, visited him on 29th. Linter did not have any complaints about his arrest, he was in same kind of cell as other detainees ,(offtopic: you might be interested that by far most jail and prison guards are ethnic Russians). Police has promised to release all relevant material to public, as this is obviously a very high-profile case - that also guarantees that he will not be abused in any way. If found guilty, he faces up to five years in prison.

Together with Linter, Maksim (b. 1975) (Maxim Reva, according to Itar-Tass) and Mark (b. 1989) were arrested. According to quality daily Postimees, latter is Mark Sirõk (Siryk by Itar-Tass), who was sending SMS's before riots, offering 80 EEK/hour for "guarding" the Bronze Soldier on Thursday (26th, about $7/hour).

Original interview by weekly Den za Dnjom was very clear about that all claims by Maria Linter are unverified, although she promised to offer evidence about many details, including name of the doctor, what "psychotropic substance" was injected to Linter and so on. She has not done so. However, Russian sources cited in the article print all that as verified facts - also, as an example of accuracy and NPOVness of Russian press, Itar-Tass claims that "In fact, the unrest came as a result of the decision of the Estonian authorities to dismantle the Monument." whereas the decision to relocate the monument on the night of 26th was made after the riots, in hopes to stop further vandalism.

This is the one thing in the Estonina point-of-view that most reminds me of Hitler; pushing the lie that somehow the relocation was the result of the protests, when everyone knows the causality was the other way around. I do not know if this meets the criteria for the Big Lie, but in my eyes, Estonians are fast loosing all credibility. -- Petri Krohn 00:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That should cover adequately the material relevant to Dmitri Linter. Sorry, that the sources are in Estonian - there are probably translations to Russian in Estonian press (Postimees, for example, has a Russian version as well), but the whole incident didn't even register in global scale - client from England, who came to Estonia yesterday, was totally surprised, that something like that had happened. Nothing about it had been published in UK's press in front pages or been in a notable position in the TV news. DLX 15:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Would you be able to expand the article using your sources? I am sorry but neither me nor (AFAIK) Vlad list Estonian in our language skills. Pietri being a native Finnish speaker may have a better luck in reading Estonian sources but still the languages are different. I am changing POV tag to Expand Alex Bakharev 23:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)