Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:45, 13 May 2007

fring

Fring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

was deleted at time we suspected spam so didn't change the text. Now I know you considered it blatant advertising, the text will be replaced but please unlock the page so reinstating it isn't prevented. the content will be written by someone else who didn't write the original and I will make sure it is certainly non-advetorial Seital 11:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

13 May 2007

Male bikini-wearing (closed)

John Paulus

John Paulus (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

The nomination and the "delete" votes were based on a faulty premise and the closing admin should have disregarded those !votes which misunderstood the nomination. The objection to the article was largely that the content of the allegations were "tabloid fodder." However, the content of the allegations is not a question that should be considered. The question that should be considered is whether there are reliable sources for the fact that the allegations were made, and there are. That people don't like the sources or the allegations is irrelevant to the sources themselves, and the sources that attest to the fact that the allegations were made are solid. WP:BLP concerns are irrelevant. The article was not asserting the truth of the allegations, simply the existence of them. That the allegations were made is undeniable and well sourced. The deletionists want the information purged completely from Misplaced Pages, including from Clay Aiken's article, because they find the allegations unsavory. I agree that the allegations are unsavory. That doesn't make them unfit for Misplaced Pages. The article passed every relevant policy and guideline and no reasonable deletion criterion was advanced. The admin should have discounted the invalid deletion rationales and kept the article. Otto4711 06:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. The opinion that the sources are bad is certainly relevant to deletion, especially since BLP mandates removal of material which is poorly sourced. Allegations from unreliable sources can and should be deleted. -Amarkov moo! 06:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that if the article were asserting the truth of the allegations then the existing sourcing would be inadequate. But again, the truth of the allegations is not what is in question here. The existence of the allegations is. A recording of Paulus making the allegations exists (episode 3), so how can the existence of the allegations be in question? If the article had said, based on the existing sources, "Paulus had sex with Aiken" then I'd be the first guy there calling for its removal. The article is saying "Paulus claimed to have sex with Aiken" and as verification of the fact that Paulus made the claim, the sources are solid. Otto4711 06:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• No, that's not the way Misplaced Pages works - we are not a scandal sheet for living people, and we do not serve as a sounding board and amplifier for sleazy and salacious rumors or allegations not otherwise reported on or supported by other evidence. FCYTravis 07:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion - There is nothing to suggest that this is not simply another scandalous assertion made by some nobody looking to attach himself to someone famous. The sources are dubious in the extreme, and the matter is beyond trivial (whether or not Clay Aiken had sex with this guy is of absolutely no consequence to history.) Absent some evidence that this person isn't making it all up to get 15 minutes of fame in the tabloids, this has no place in an encyclopedia. FCYTravis 07:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse Deletion I can't retrieve many of the original sources, but the NY Times one frequently refers to the National Enquirer as a source and uses the term "Alleged". I notice for the others they have been referred to as "Gossip Columns". Questions of reliability seem legitimate so closed properly. Also note WP:BLP "When these magazines print information they suspect is untrue, they often include weasel phrases. Look out for these. If the magazine doesn't think the story is true, then why should we?" - hence the gossip columns and words like "Alleged". --pgk 07:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn - The arguments of the delete votes ignored our guidelines. Being written about in the New York Post, People Magazine, MSNBC and the New York Daily News demonstrates notablity, whether it's "tabloid" news or not. If they're written about by very highly circulated publications, they're notable. The nature of their notabilty, like this person gleaming for attention with slanderous allagations, doesn't suddenly eraticate the media coverage this person has recieved. --Oakshade 07:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. As the closer of the AfD, I believe that the discussion was closed per consensus and was not based on faulty premise and thus was an adequate close. The reports and rumors are all allegations, in which nothing can be proved from. Sr13 09:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Portal of Evil (closed)

Template:Infoboxneeded (closed)

The Baseball Channel

The Baseball Channel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

A quick glance at Google News suggests that enough reliable sources ( ) exist to establish this future television channel's encyclopedicity. The project has been in gestation/vaporware forever, which I think only adds to the encyclopedic interest - is this the Duke Nukem Forever of TV channels? FCYTravis 02:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn. Was at The Baseball Channel until today, in fact. Should have never remained deleted anyway. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• overturn The AfD should have been continued, as the discussion there was being outdated by events. DGG 04:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Qian Zhijun

Qian Zhijun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

This article was on AfD. The discussion was closed early by User:Daniel Bryant. After discussion on his talk page here, he reversed himself, saying "I have overturned my closure and relisted on the basis of substantial new information and arguments. Fellow administrators, please let this run at least another five days from today (see my sig for date) before closing, to let the debate which was shut down too early by myself complete itself, before making a decision." However, User:Drini nevertheless closed only a few hours later, with the edit summery "don't be a dick". I was on the point of adding a comment to the AfD when Drini closed, and I asked him twice on his talk page to reverse himself. he refuesed, explicitly citing WP:IAR as his justification. (See this exchange) As I was composing a post to Deletion Reveiw, User:Matt Crypto reverted Drini's close. Perhaps I should have brought the matter here at once. Insted I added my comment to the re-opened AfD, as did several other editors. Then Daniel Bryant, objecting quite reasonably to Matt Crypto's revert, reveted to Drini's close, thus removing my comments and those of four other editors, made in good faith. He also altered his own earlier request to let the AfD run, significantly reducing its strength to a "suggestion" and removing the mention of the full five days. There are several process problems here, IMO. There was no consensus to delete at the time of Drini's close (and not a clear one at the time of the earlier undone clsoe), but he closed it as a delete. Matt Crypto should not have simply reverted Drini's close (although if IAR aupports one out-of-process action, perhaps it supports a revert of it). Daniel Bryant in undoing Matt Crypto's action, should not have reveerted the commetns of five other editors. Drini's close was based on his judgement of the notability issues, but it was not supported by a consensus, and early closes (particularly when undoing a prior decison to relist) should have a clear consensus, IMO. Some editors had raised WP:BLP issues, but argumets i find persuasive said that these do not apply: the informatiuon is well sourced, is not particularly negative or controversial, and the Qian Zhijun himself has created a website on which he publicizes the facts involved, so he must not find them overly embarrasing or harmful. I request that the early closes be Overturned, and that the articel be Relisted, with all prior commets included, and that we all be more wary of a rush to judgemetn in future. DES 00:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep deleted the process is a mess - so let's stick to the 'facts': this is a WP:BLP article about a fat teenager who was made fun of on the internet, and got his unfortunate 15 min of fame in some newspapers that were used to wrap chips the next day. We don't need this. Whilst it might merit a mention on Sick things people have done on the internet, the child victim certainly does not merit a perpetual wikipedia biography. Let's not be dicks.--Doc 00:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't belive that is an accurate assessment of the situation. We usually consider continuing coverage in major newspapers worthy of note. I made that argument more fully in My AfD comment, which is the place for it. I am asking here that a proper discussion of you views and those who hold quite different views be allowed to complete on AfD. Note that at the time Drini closed, i count 6 dels and 5 keeps, with significant argumetns each way -- hardly consensus to delete. DES 01:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
    • This is not worth debating - and certainly not vote counting over. Get a grip. We are better than this.--Doc 01:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Oh for heaven's sake what a ridiculous reason for coming to deletion review. It's bollocks and it must die. Fuck process before it fucks this kid's life even worse than it has been already. --Tony Sidaway 01:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  If he felt that his life was "fucked" by this, he would not be acting as he is -- continuing to publicize the matter himself. DES 01:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  That he participates in his own degradation does not excuse us from our obligations to him as a human being. --Tony Sidaway 01:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  This argument doesn't make sense. In building an encyclopedia, we should not pick and choose which topics to cover based on whether we feel sorry for them or not. Under this argument, we should not cover unfortunate details of anyone's life. The only obligation we really have to him as a human being is to cover the topic neutrally and from secondary sources. Mangojuice 11:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse close. Drini's close (and that of Daniel.Bryant before) is entirely valid and should never have been overruled. Daniel.Bryant was right to restore it and to remove comments made after a valid close. The weight of WP:BLP concerns and our basic responsibility to act responsibly in providing encyclopedic content clearly trump the weak appeal to WP:NOT#CENSORED made in the discussion. We do not keep negative pages about people of borderline notability. The closer's reading of the debate was in my opinion correct. WjBscribe 01:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• As I commented on the original AfD I was asked to come here. My response will be the same as it always is, then; what I have to say in the original AfD stands as is, and everyone commenting on the DRV or determining the correct outcome should be reading the AfD anyway. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 01:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure -There is no evidence that this person's life has any lasting encyclopedicity, and Misplaced Pages should not be in the business of recording for posterity anyone who ever had their picture photoshopped. Whether or not the fact that his picture was photoshopped is encyclopedic, the person himself most certainly is not. FCYTravis 01:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist. Drini's close is a terrible reading of the debate (if you can even call it that - I believe he's simply advancing a completely new argument in the closure) and there was not consensus. Furthermore, the BLP concerns are bollocks here - there is nothing negative in the article that I can find, and even if there was, everything in there is backed up in reliable sources. I'd rather there weren't a bunch of admin reversions in this, but Drini's closure effectively took the result completely out of the hands of the community, and given that (1) there is no complaint here from the subject, (2) I would think we might have learned our lesson after Daniel Brandt, and (3) the argument on which this is deleted is not supported even in the BLP policy. Relist because in a BLP case consensus ought to be found, not given up on. But, if anything, the keep arguments were stronger here. Mangojuice 01:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• comment I am now informed that the inital closure was not early, and I have struck that word above. I was misled by the words "premature" and "too early" which was used in the relisting comment. Instead it was reopened for "new information" DES 02:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Strong overturn, and don't relist. When you have multiple reliable sources referring to him as one of the most famous faces in China, it's a done deal. Period. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse close it was a mess, and I !voted keep there. But now in light of the BLP concerns it is appropriate to put it under Intermet meme article instead a biography. Wooyi 02:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• R.I.P. - seems like the AfD and the DRV here turned into a huge mess (which I have no intention to delve into) and, from the procedural point of view, the whole process should be scrapped and restarted. BUT, quite surprisingly, the AfD ended in a correct decision to delete an article on a person of borderline notability, and I believe the AfD was started as a part of more major action of pruning Misplaced Pages from awful articles like that. In the end, WP:UCS (which is a part of one of the most important WP policies) should be applied when all else fails, and common sense tells us this article is even less encyclopedic, needed or having any serious point than one on a Pokemon. I hereby declare I am willing to endorse deletion of this article in any further AfDs or DRVs, if this one will not be successful, no matter how many it will take to get rid of it. With Misplaced Pages growing in quantity and not quality every day, pruning it of weed is one of the most important tasks not to let this wonderful work of so many people deteriorate into irrelevance. PrinceGloria 02:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • How is this remotely borderline? Seriously, I can't see how one can look at the sources and call it borderline. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
    • And I can't see how one can look at the number of actual articles that link to it and not consider it redundant. PrinceGloria 03:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I fail to see why that's relevant. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:16, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
        • It is relevant in that it shows the article is irrelevant - I mean, without any proper Wikilinks TO it, the article is unlikely to be ever accessed. This article solely exists by the merit that there are some sources for it, but it doesn't mean that we should keep it - Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and not just a collection of all info one can find. This is an article on a guy whose face was featured in an Internet meme, itself a phenomenon of questionable notability, it would be like having lenghty bios of people whose photos were taken from the stock to adorn some billboards (that said, I am almost sure some of those linger somewhere on WP, sadly). I doubt it anybody would be really searching for this guy on Misplaced Pages, and if somebody was really really really that interested, they can do the same google search people did to cobble together the sources for the article. We've had repeated requests for Infiniti G20 paint codes here (and I am being dead serious here), and still we don't provide them. Why should we carry an article nobody asked for? PrinceGloria 11:02, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Overturn - 1. The AfD was closed improperly - it should've been keep by the consensus (I see even a delete vote was just a vote) with well supported arguments and the closing admin cited their own arbitrary AfD reasoning of "internet phenomenon is notable, the kid not" to close it rather than being an independent un-biased judge of the AfD consensus. 2. Clearly multiple non-trivial published works by reliable sources primarily about the topic. --Oakshade 04:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist Viewing in procedural terms, there is no convinceing argument that the article should be deleted. Bad taste is not an argument. Until I read the pruning policy, I'll work to improve wiki by improving it. DDB 08:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn for starters, obviously, and relisting is probably the best procedural call. Endorsing deletion when the process has been so contentious seems like incredibly poor judgement, while overturning and not relisting would undoubtedly upset those who support deletion (although God knows I can't see a policy which remotely supports them). My more expansive comments at User talk:Daniel.Bryant#Deletion of Qian Zhijun are to do with content, not process. I'd also support the comments of User:Mangojuice, who seems to be one of the few people here actually citing WP:BLP accurately; even for private figures (I reckon Qian Zhijun is semi-public thanks to his subsequent participation in perpetuating his own infamy) the recommendation is to "include only material relevant to their notability...When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic." That's "pare back", not "delete entirely". Since the content met WP:ATT and WP:NPOV as well as WP:BIO, I really don't see the problem here. Don't think internet phenomena are encyclopedic? Then get a policy which supports you on that, don't misuse existing ones which say no such thing. --DeLarge 09:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
  • As an addended comment regarding User:Drini's first reason for deletion: "the internet phenomenon is notable, the kid not". In fact, the original article was entitled "Little Fatty" after the phenomenon's more common name. However, user:Matt Crypto redirected it to Qian Zhijun, which I viewed as correct since "Little Fatty" was more likely to be a BLP violation despite WP:COMMONNAME guidelines. --DeLarge 10:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, valid closure by both Daniel Bryant and Drini (and the fact that Daniel was having second thoughts but then supported Drini's decision only supports this). Correct decision, as per PrinceGloria, Kat Walsh and others. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted', just let it die at this point. The whole thing has been mismanaged, just let it go and, if people really feel that it is such a valuable contribution to Misplaced Pages, maybe somebody can try again in a few months, in a more sensitive manner. Bahamut0013 11:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Deleted - I can only echo the sentiments of Kat, Tony, Doc Glasgow and PrinceGloria. -- Nick 11:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)