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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

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Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/How-to

Current requests

Qian Zhijun

Initiated by badlydrawnjeff talk at 13:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Involved parties

• badlydrawnjeff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• thebainer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Doc glasgow (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Nick (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Drini (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• DESiegel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Daniel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• The Evil Spartan (talk · contribs)
• Matthew (talk · contribs)
• Mbimmler (talk · contribs)
• Jc37 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Prolog (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Xoloz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Phil Sandifer (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) I added myself, so I'm aware.
• Viridae (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Freakofnurture (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• FCYTravis (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (self-added, is aware)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

For ease or organization, diffs are linked next to the names above.

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

In this case, there's threads at AN/I and at a number of associated talk pages. An RfC/Mediation would be useless due to the sheer numbers involved and the apparent lack of people willing to go through an entire discussion at this stage. Additionally, the use of DRV was trying to use another avenue, but this remedy was shot down before given a chance.

Statement by badlydrawnjeff

On 4 May, Qian Zhijun, an article about a Chinese person who became famous for the web meme his appearance inspired and he himself cultivated, was nominated for deletion. After the requisite five day period, the discussion was closed as delete by Daniel (talk · contribs) (best known as Daniel Bryant per sig), but later re-opened by Bryant following an appeal. Drini (talk · contribs) closed the discussion again not too long after as delete, citing that the meme might be notable, but the kid isn't. This was appealed at deletion review on 13 May, and eventually overturned by Xoloz (talk · contribs) on the grounds that the subject met all the relevant policies (having multiple reliable sources, the cornerstone of inclusion - one user put the rate of sourcing at 1.7 refs/sentence), and relisted the article on AfD. This discussion was quickly responded to by a number of people before being closed by thebainer (talk · contribs) less than an hour after the relisting. I then nominated it for deletion review following an appeal to thebainer which was declined. This is where the issues began, over the course of around 24 hours:

• Speedily closed by JzG (talk · contribs), I reverted.
• Speedily closed by Doc glasgow (talk · contribs), I reverted.
• Speedily closed by Drini.
• New review by DESiegel (talk · contribs).
• Removed as "silly" by Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs), not even closed. Reversed by DESiegel.
• Speedily closed by Doc glasgow ("not twice in one day"), reversed by Matthew (talk · contribs).
• Closed by Mbimmler (talk · contribs) ("properly closed DRV"), Reverted by The Evil Spartan (talk · contribs).
• Closed by JzG, reverted by The Evil Spartan.
• Speedy closed by Jc37 (talk · contribs), later reversed as an error.
• Speedily closed by MBimmler ("due to consensus"), reverted by Prolog (talk · contribs).
• Speedy closed by Viridae (talk · contribs), AfD opened.
• AfD closed by Nick (talk · contribs) four hours later, citing the alleged previous consensus.

At this point, the AfD is closed. The discussion has spilled over to a number of project pages, talk pages, and userpages. It's emblematic of the general situation the project is currently encountering regarding the actual role of deletion review, the ability of administrators to use their abilities to shut down useful discussion, and the inability to have a consistent, clear appeals process, without even getting into the specifics of user conduct, which is highlighted by the numerous case of incivility and lack of good faith toward contributors on both sides of the debate, as evidenced by commentary below mine.

There are many things that ArbCom can (and should) look at here - the role of deletion review, the ability for administrators to accurately interpret discussions, whether a group of editors can choose to willfully ignore the policies laid out by a wider consensus by the greater community, the application of WP:BLP in regards to subjects who participate in their own fame, and the closing of discussions early, perhaps relevant to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Daniel Brandt deletion wheel war. This is about behavior, about process, about mechanisms, and about content, no matter what anyone else would like to frame it as.

The list of people above are simply people who were involved in the closing/unclosing/deleting/undeleting. I'd imagine ArbCom can sort that out during the proceedings, but at no point and I saying some of the involved parties are more "guilty" than others.

I urge ArbCom to accept this case. This sort of nonsense has to stop - the administrators are not reading the consensus properly, and us regular users are simply stuck in constant limbo because of this. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE: Since the listing of this case, Viridae (talk · contribs) reopened the AfD, which was then re-closed by Doc glasgow. The page was then deleted by Phil Sandifer (talk · contribs) with the summary "This is deleted. No restorations. No full course AfDs. No process or politics. Human decency. BLP. The end," all points very much under debate and discussion. Whether anyone wants to add him as a party (or whether he adds himself) is not a decision I will make at this stage.

David Gerard's inline statement is a false statement in regards to my feelings, which is why I declined to continue the line of conversation with him initially. Is RfC rather worthless? Yes, it is. If there was any question that an RfC would actually result in anything here, it would have been pursued, but that would have likely been speedily deleted/closed by one of the involved parties as well, given the track record - without a doubt, if an RfC were attempted, the same rank incivility and vitriol being seen now would be put out there, and this ArbCom case would occur anyway. This is the last step - too many people are involved and there needs to be some sort of recourse at this stage.

Statement by David Gerard

It's a badly sourced living biography of an individual who is minorly notable at best. All the DRV votes on Misplaced Pages don't override our rules on verifiability and original research, particularly the harshness with which they need to be applied to living biographies of the minorly notable. "Consensus" in the above usage translates to "baying mob." Look for yourself if you think that characterisation's too sharp - the "keep" arguments are about process and votes, the "delete" arguments are about living bio and fundamental content guidelines - David Gerard 13:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Doc

I'm tempted to say "Crap dies - screw process." But I actually think that not only is process being used to the detriment of the encyclopedia it is also being (ab)used by people who want to keep crap in the encyclopedia - who then scream "process abuse" when those who want to keep it out don't follow their version of "TEH RULES".

We've had countless debates on this. Four separate admins have now viewed the conclusion of that debate to be - delete. The petitioner complains about the speedy closure of the last two AfDs - but selectively forgets that the last AfD was generated by a speedy close of the DRV in its favour....Oh I let lost in the order of who dis what and which AfD lef to which DRV of which AfD (shrug). But, safe to say, there's a lot of selective process-wonking here.

Arbcom should probably reject this case. If they take it on, they will have no choice but to look at the merits of the content of the article (fine by me - but you don't like doing content). If they try to look at process without considering product - then short of saying "process must be followed regardless of product" (a view which is antithetical to Misplaced Pages - although works well in fantasy Jeff-opedia) - there is little they can do.--Doc 13:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

I'm not sure what the arbitration committee can do about this. It has refused in the past to do anything about the process-for-process-sake obsessions that facilitate this kind of trolling. Why is Xoloz omitted from this case? He is at least as responsible for the damage caused to Misplaced Pages by this disgraceful case as Badlydrawnjeff.

Statement by Calton Bolick

Three AFDs and two DRVs wasn't enough processwankery, now we have this, yet another attempt to use bureaucracy as some sort of club. Call it wikilawyering, call it process for its own sake, call it trolling, call it vexatious litigation; whatever label you attach, it's a quintessential disruption to make a point. Badlydrawnjeff wrote that "This sort of nonsense has to stop" -- true, but not in the way he thinks it should. --Calton | Talk 13:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved W.marsh

I haven't commented in any of these AFDs/DRVs... and personally I'm happy with a redirect, but some of the denial of discussion here could be a bit problematic, especially as you see there was increasingly less of a consensus as more and more people found out about this. Maybe ArbCom wants to look at why people keep closing these discussions early, despite wide disagreement and objection, and if that's a problem. But if ArbCom doesn't think it's a big deal, there's not much else to look at here except the content dispute, as far as I can tell. --W.marsh 13:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Matthew

First and foremost I'd primarily urge the arbitration committee to accept this to review behaviour by multiple administrators. After reviewing a cached (via Google) version of the article I am of the belief that the article does indeed successfully pass Misplaced Pages's notability criteria. What we must remember is that Misplaced Pages works on consensus. The actions by multiple administrators to "sweep it under the carpet" are disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, at best. The sheer activity that this provoked is indicative that the community desires a proper discussion—the activity of multiple administrators undermines this process. Matthew 13:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by The Evil Spartan

I actually was not part of any of the original discussions - and, for that matter, I think it may be non-notable and not worthy of an article. However, I am completely shocked and saddened that the administrators here do not seem to understand that ignoring all rules is probably not a good idea when the community (including many other administrators) does not have consensus on an issue; it seems completely contrary to common sense in doing so. The constant call that this is "process wonkery" seems to be a red herring to me - in fact, it's hardly process wonkery if a good part of the community believes the article is worthy of existence.

I would like to reiterate exactly what happened here - twice two uninvolved admins closed a DRV as "back to AFD", and both times, an involved admin decided to speedy close the debate in the favor of the way they had previously advocated. More, after people tried to appeal that illegal closing, they would not even allow the DRV to stay open - and as of now, it still is not open. I can hardly think of a worse abuse of admin power than this.

I would ask to the Arbitration committee to make three simple rulings -

1. that a contentious DRV cannot be closed by an administrator who was involved in a previous AFD or DRV (much in the same way as administrator ought not turn down contentious {{unblock}} requests when the block was done by themselves). This seems common sense - I included the word contentious purposefully so that open and shut WP:SNOW cases are not necessarily involved (though even those, it would probably be wise for the involved admin to stay away from).
2. that a DRV which results in undelete and sent to AFD cannot be ruled speedy closed delete (especially by a previously involved admin), as, if it passed the muster of DRV, it certainly does not qualify for speedy close.
3. that this specific debate be reopened, as it has not been given a fair hearing - and that only a previously uninvolved admin can close it - and not speedily.

I also must say I find it interesting that all the people who so loudly were calling that "this whole thing is too much process-wonkery" are now claiming that this hasn't followed the proper channels by going through RFC. But I have serious doubts an RFC would truly accomplish any consensus - as indeed, the scope of this argument is large, people's opinions won't change, and it will not accomplish any of the meaningful reforms I mentioned above. It would just be more bickering between both sides.

Statement by Drini

Deletion review is supposed to review wether AFD was done properly or not. Nowadays, it's turned into a 2nd chance AFD where it's "fought" a second time if the 1st time was closed in a way people disagree. Now, improper AFDs are meant to be reviewed on DRV. But DRV is not by itself free of defects and problems, yet noone can challenge a DRV as there's no deletion review review. -- drini 13:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Moreover Jeff says "a RFC or mediation would be useless due to the sheer number people involved", is assuming the proper mechanisms will without doubt fail without having tried them. Nowhere it's written that such processes can only be used if there's less or equal than 5 involved users. Arbitration is the LAST resort, and other avenues can't be skipped just because the user wanting the arbitration believes they won't give the results he wants. -- drini 14:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeff has stated repeatedly on wikien-l that he can't be bothered with RFCs because he doesn't think they'll get the result he wants - David Gerard 14:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

And finally, I think this is, at the core, a content dispute, jeff is fighting about some text to be kept or not, but it's disguising it as "reviewing DRV role, etc etc". However, all his diffs and his statement is about this particular incident, he's not requesting arbcom to "review mechanisms", he's asking arbcom to "rule on content". -- drini 14:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Night Gyr

Frankly I think this whole thing is incredibly silly and pretty lame, but there's a very important issue at the heart. I've been an extensive participant in the debate, and noticed a few things. There's a oft-repeated claim that the article violates WP:BLP, but that is disputed. When an article may be noncompliant and in need of deletion, AfD is the forum for that. DRV is there to make sure AfDs were run correctly. The first AfD was a bit of a mess with the multiple closures, so a second run seems logical. The second afd was even more of a mess with the extremely premature closure, and the third was running fairly smoothly until closed prematurely. There's obviously a dispute over this article's compliance with policies, but the way to settle it is not with arbitrary admin action, it's with consensus gained from a full run of process, which it seems like a number of people are willing to disrupt. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 14:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statment by DropDeadGorgias

I have to agree with Jeff. As a user that was uninvolved with the first two AFDs, I reviewed the original article and the original AFD, and I understand why the second AFD was opened. The original vote did not reach a clear consensus. Since then, I have been appalled that subsequent efforts to review this deletion have been completely blocked at every turn, without the possibility of discussion. The third AFD was opened by Viridae specifically because the DRV discussion indicated that users were not happy with the early closure of the first two AFDs, and the fact that this third AFD vote was closed early again does not speak well for the observance of process in the deletion space. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by John254

I would urge the Arbitration Committee to accept this case, and to issue an emergency injunction against any deletion or undeletion of Qian Zhijun until the matter is resolved, to avoid a serious wheel war. See the deletion log for this article, and Viridae's personal attack against the administrators who closed the previous AFD discussions . John254 14:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by FCYTravis

Yes, I agree this nonsense has to stop - but I have a wildly different idea of nonsense than Jeff does. The idea that our processes supersede the fundamental goal of writing an encyclopedia is pernicious at best, dangerous at worst. It has led to people repeatedly attacking admins for speedily deleting hoaxes, libelous attacks, pure junk and other articles that actively damage the encyclopedia, and it has led to endless reams of Wikitext defending patent nonsense. I urge the ArbCom to reject this request and continue to allow policy and good sense to judge what should and should not be included. I am a firm believer in eventualism. We do not need an article on this man right now. If he continues to be a fixture of interest on and off the Internet in a year, we can reconsider. But if, as with Brian Peppers, he was merely something laughed at on the Internet and then forgotten, we can allow him to quietly fade away. FCYTravis 14:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by User:Phil Sandifer

I just re-deleted the article, shortcutting the process of a third AfD. I would have salted the article too if someone hadn't beaten me to it. (And they did so only because I couldn't understand the damn salt process.) My reasons were simple - process, procedure, and such matters do not trump BLP, or, for that matter, human decency. It may be that this article is verifiable. It may be that this article is neutral, and well-sourced, and meets the letter of every policy we have on such matters. This is not the point, however. The article may be all of those things, but it is still wrong. It's an exercise in humiliation and mocking. It's bullying. It's beneath us. Our policies and processes are a guide to doing the right thing. In this case, the right thing is so obvious that we do not even need to check with our policies. Phil Sandifer 14:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Statement by User:Mangojuice

I would like to see Arbcom take up this case because I think it would be nice to see some principles set down by Arbcom that put some basic sanity back into the admins when BLP is mentioned. (In this case, WP:BLP does not really apply to the article, which makes things even worse.) However, I really can't understand why this debate has attracted so many admins who feel that it's perfectly okay to ignore the input of the community, and ignore the reasons we have a deletion process, and simply delete the article out of hand or close debates out of process. This is very damaging: if the original AfD had just come to an ordinary, sensible conclusion we wouldn't have this ArbCom case, two more out-of-process closed AfDs and 3 DRVs, plus an ANI thread and a lot of shouting and bad feeling on both sides. Mangojuice 15:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Recuse from any clerk activity in this case. Newyorkbrad 13:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/0/0)

• Decline. I would be one of the first to agree that DRV and AFD are a mess, but the ArbCom has neither the mandate nor the ability to rewrite policies in this area, which seems to be what is being asked of us in this case. - SimonP 15:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Requests for clarification

Requests for clarification from the Committee on matters related to the Arbitration process. Place new requests at the top.

Appeal from Olaf Stephanos

In the recent Falun Gong arbitration case, User:Mcconn was placed on revert parole. However, according to CU performed by User:Dmcdevit, we have found out that the banned editor User:Samuel Luo has been using a wide variety of sockpuppets during the course of the last year. Among them are User:Pirate101, User:Yueyuen (an involved editor in the ArbCom case!), User:Kent888, User:Kent8888 and User:Mr.He, probably newly registered users User:Foullou, User:Shimanan, User:IamYueyuen, User:Gtyh and User:Fufg as well. Most incidents of Mcconn's revert warring took place against these sockpuppets. Therefore, I plead the ArbCom to lift the revert parole that was imposed on him, as it hardly feels justified in the light of this recent information. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 17:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Mcconn needs to have the self control to deal with other users if they disagree about content. And follow the proper channels for dealing with problem users. This includes users that are using sock puppets. FloNight 18:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there any chance for him to get his parole lifted if he now begins to edit in a completely respectable and proper manner? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 09:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Although, I'm not exactly sure why he needs to revert. If for a period of time (at least 2-3 months, I think) he shows self control in his editing, he can request his revert parole be modified or dropped. The key thing is for him to show that he can work collaboratively with other users. FloNight 16:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This would seem to be inconsistent application of the COI rule. FG activists are allowed not only to edit, but also can be let off the hook after 2-3 months. Olaf has demonstrated much incivil behavior yet he hasn't even been warned about it. Yet less controversial alter egos of Sam like Yueyuen have been banned for eternity, and even Tomananda for their 'activism'. This is direct contradiction in logic. I have asked some Arbitrators on this matter, but no explanation has been given apart from 'dealing with the worst offenders'. Surely ArbCom should be aware by now that excommunicating one side at the total expense of the other will only result in worse edit wars. If Wiki FG-related entries wants to avoid being a battleground, temporary protection is not enough; we need a balance. Can Checkusers be done on ALL FG editors? If we are to defend human rights (e.g. all persons are created equal) and freedom on Wiki, we need to ensure fairness for all users, even if you disagree with their beliefs and principles. Please tell me if what I said was objectionable or disagreeable with any Wiki policies; whilst the ArbCom's hard work is always admired and appreciated (because I myself could never make that kind of commitment!), we need to ensure fairness and avoid falling into propaganda traps and ensure, in a way, balance-neutrality not only in principles, but also in the APPLICATION of principles to ALL users. Jsw663 12:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have apologized for all incivility I might be guilty of. The situation was quite tense with Samuel and Tomananda, and their legacy lingers on until we've reformed the articles. By the way, like I've said several times before (but never getting a response from you), it is quite uncivil on your part to keep accusing "pro-Falun Gong vandals/apologists" of vandalizing your user pages, even though we found the guy (User:NuclearBunnies) who made matching edits. I have nothing against a checkuser for all involved editors. I know for certain that none of "our party" is using sockpuppets. There will be no edit wars as long as everybody adheres to the policies. I'm not here to insist on blatantly substandard content like the puppetmaster(s) from Frisco. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 11:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention that your distinction between "less controversial alter egos of Sam like Yueyuen" and User:Samuel Luo per se sounds pretty twisted. We're talking about the same guy! Doubtless, "Yueyuen" had to act in a slightly different manner; he was a useful helper in some revert wars and creating illusory support for Samuel's position on the talk page. The same goes for User:Pirate101 and User:Mr.He. User:Chinatravel, on the other hand, was meant to cover up the fact that Sam was pursuing other agendas as well, such as defending the CCP's official viewpoint on the Tiananmen massacre. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an official response to my above paragraph(s). The pro-FG vandal/apologist is the one hiding behind the IP addresses supposedly from South Korea. See my user page for a brief list of IP addresses. Users like NuclearBunnies did not vandalize my user or user talk page, so I see no reason why I need to condemn them on my user or user talk page. It's not like I accuse you of bias or incivility on my user page, right? Or are you trying to censor me too? Do you see me demanding that you edit your user page for pro-FG bias?

I mention the less controversial alter egos because my above paragraph should show that I am still not satisfied with hazy explanations that link THAT many user accounts. If they all originated from SFO, does that mean they are necessarily the same user? And why the finding that Tom + Sam are the same people after establishing they were not earlier??? I think linking User:Chinatravel is a perfect instance of what I consider to be dangerously similar to McCarthyism - witch-hunting all pro-China users and linking them in some conspiracy theory as some kind of ridiculous network or whatever. Jsw663 21:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Appeal from Koavf

Koavf (talk · contribs · block log) recently contacted me via email, asking for an appeal by the ArbCom of his indefinite block, which was placed in November by Dmcdevit with the log summary of "Extensive block history for perpetually edit warring and disruptive behavior, but behavior is unmodified. Exhaustion of the community's patience." Koavf's reasons for his unblock are copied below:

I personally desire to be unblocked because I enjoyed editing Misplaced Pages and I was in the middle of several articles that were enjoyable for me to write. As for the community at large, I feel like I have made several thousand useful edits, including writing whole articles that were valuable and may not have been written with the quality or expediency that I brought to them (I am particularly proud of List of African Union member states by political system.) Furthermore, the contributions on Western Sahara-related articles has completely stagnated as I've been gone and there is no indication that this trend will reverse. I feel like I can engage the community as a mature member and that the block I have been given is disproportionate to the amount of quality that I added to the endeavor at large.

He also wrote that "I am seeking to be unblocked by the Arbitration Committee; I have been blocked for several months and was a very active contributor to Misplaced Pages prior to the block. I have tried several means to get unblocked, and none of them have borne fruit (e.g. the most recent was e-mailing the blocking admin, who has not responded in over a week.)"

Following some discussion on our mailing list, it was suggested that Koavf be unblocked and instead placed on standard revert parole. This seems reasonable; his block log shows multiple prior blocks for 3RR violations, and a revert parole would thus hopefully address that issue while allowing him to continue his ways as a productive editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flcelloguy (talk • contribs)

Motion for Unblock and standard revert parole (4/0/0/0)

Koavf (talk · contribs) is unblocked and placed on standard revert parole. He is hereby limited to a maximum of one content revert per page per day for one year. Each revert must be explicitly marked as such. Any such violations may result in further blocks of up to 24 hours, and multiple violations (i.e. three or more) may result in longer blocks or the resumption of the original indefinite block, depending on the administrator's discretion. Blocks should be mentioned on the requests for Arbitration page.

Clerk note: There are currently 11 active arbitrators, so a majority is 6. Newyorkbrad 04:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Flcelloguy (A note?) 21:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support Fred Bauder 04:47, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. --jpgordon 05:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Kirill Lokshin 16:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Paul August ☎ 16:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC) Changed my mind per comments below. While, given what I currently know, I would support the unblock and revert parole, I do not think that this is the best way to go about it. Paul August ☎ 17:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments

(Not sure where you want this.) I don't quite understand this particular motion without a case. I don't feel vehemently about any half-year old ban of mine, but I do disagree that it should be done this way. Mostly, an arbitration case should never take anyone by surprise. The original ban was endorsed by several admins, and no one in the community was willing to unblock after an ANI discussion. If anyone (arbitrators included) think that a revert parole is a better option, it would have been better to 1) discuss with the blocking administrator and then 2) put it to the community on some noticeboard. That's normal admin courtesy. I can't avoid the feeling that, by bypassing the usual options, arbcom has essentially (whether intentionally or not) mixed up their administrator and arbitrator hats. Dmcdevit·t 07:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree this seems like a bad idea, and is without precedent in the 9 months I have been a clerk. Unless FIcelloguy wants to act directly as an admin and unblock Koavf, the Arbcom precedent would be to list the appeal as a routine request. If four or more arbitrators agree to hear the case, a full case with an evidence and workshop page would be opened. Here you are going directly to the final decision without any input from the blocking admin or other editors who discussed the case when it was reported on the noticeboard. Thatcher131 14:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Full link to discussion of indefinite block is here. Thatcher131 14:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the reason this procedure is being used is that the editor in question is blocked indefinitely, so he has no on-wiki method of requesting a reduction in the sanction against him. Therefore, he properly wrote to the Arbitration Committee, as recommended, and arbitrators apparently concluded that they could reduce the sanction as indicated without needing evidence and a workshop.

I think that procedurally, what is proposed here is the equivalent of setting up an expedited procedure ("summary docket") that the arbitrators would use for matters in which they believe ArbCom action is appropriate but the full panoply of opening a case is not necessary. I suppose last month's fast-tracked confirmation of the Robdurbar desysopping would be a procedural precedent, not that the two cases are otherwise comparable in any way. On the one hand, it would make sense that such an expedited procedure be established for less controversial items (perhaps with a caveat that this procedure could not be used if any arbitrator objected, or if more than one arbitrator objected). The counter-argument is that the experience of real-world legal systems is that such special expedited procedures quickly tend to get overused, including for matters that would benefit from more plenary consideration. Newyorkbrad 14:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

To answer a few of the qualms: I, too, was at first a little hesitant about any such appeals method. But the email from Koavf indicated that he had tried other means of recourse, including emailing the blocking admin (Dmcdevit) previously, with no reply. He attempted an unblock request in January of this year, which was denied; people told him to take his appeals process to the Arbitration Committee because he was blocked indefinitely. Whether or not it's technically a "ban" seemed a bit irrelevant; people pointed him to us, citing the appeals process. It was clear that, with that advice having been given to him, that the Arbitration Committee would be the only ones able to listen to his case and act. With that in mind and the appeals of all bans in our "jurisdiction", I was still a little bit hesitant about how to proceed. After receiving his email, I forwarded (like I would any other email pertaining to ArbCom business) his email to the mailing list and asked for thoughts on how to proceed. It was suggested by another Arbitrator that we take the option of unblocking him, and placing him on standard revert parole - his block log and prior discussions indicated that this was one of the primary reasons that hindered him from being a productive editor. Several Arbitrators agreed with this proposal, at which point I asked for advice on how to proceed - how would we treat this? Another Arbitrator responded that it should be treated like a standard appeals and placed in the "clarification" section. With sufficient time given and no objections heard, I proceeded with placing this request on here.

Regarding the lack of a complete case for this matter: this was something, as I mentioned above, that I asked for feedback on from my fellow Arbitrators, and they all seemed comfortable with this method. I saw little merit in starting a new case; unlike the typical case that we accept, there would be no need for a workshop, proposed decisions, evidence, etc. - the only thing that we were considering is whether or not to unblock this particular editor, and if so, whether or not to place him on standard revert parole. Other editors are, of course, free to comment here, but as no Arbitrator had opposed placing this unblock to a vote, I didn't see a need to vote on whether or not to "accept" a case - an Arbitrator either believes that the editor should be unblocked, or he doesn't. (Of course, they are all free to propose alternate solutions and remedies.) It seemed redundant to vote on "accepting" the case and then voting again on the one proposed action, when, in essence, anyone accepting the case would be supporting the unblock, while those against opening would be against the unblock. Again, no objections were heard at all in the time this was discussed on our mailing list, and we all looked into the circumstances surrounding his unblock carefully.

Those are the reasons why I felt comfortable proceeding with this request, having discussed this and being advised to proceed in this manner by other Arbitrators. It should also be noted that I contacted Dmcdevit as well after I placed this appeal from Koavf on here, notifying him of the appeal. Perhaps I should have contacted all the other editors who discussed the indefinite block in the first place; if so, I apologize. I - and the rest of the committee - of course respect and understand your qualms about this, but I hope I've made clear why I felt comfortable proceeding in the manner I did. (If I didn't address any of your concerns inadvertantly, please let me know and I'll do so.) Additional feedback and comments about the process or case are, as always, welcome. Thanks for your understanding. Flcelloguy (A note?) 15:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so concerned about the lack of a case, or "jurisdiction" issues—I've always felt that simple cases should be resolved with open motions, not full cases, but the previous ArbCom never warmed to my idea—but that this block was uncontested, and ArbCom's action came out of the blue. If any of the arbitrators, upon receiving Koavf's email, felt that lifting the ban was a good idea, simply saying so as a respected administrator on ANI would have been enough. The problem here is that by using arbitration to make a simple admin decision–especially when, if you had contacted any of us who had discussed it previously, it would be clear that limiting the ban to some kind of probation is not that controversial–ArbCom seems to be limiting admin discretion in favor of sending more cases to arbitraton instead. (I have a laundry list of users community banned by adminstrators and upheld by the community who still want to be unblocked, probably several a week, if ArbCom would like to have at them all. )Dmcdevit·t 05:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this appeal should have been exposed to public. No one from the list of people who participated at the AN/I discussion have been informed of this process. I think people should be informed at least.

Anyway, as i had stated in the AN/I back on November 2006, i have no objection to see Koavf contributing again but it remains conditional (partial ban - see AN/I). I still think the same. In parallel, i don't understand that if they revert more than once a day they'd only be blocked for 24h. Why not longer? Why not putting them on a probation period with stricter conditions instead? Anyway, i assume good faith and would not object if Justin is willing to do as they say. I'd have no problems in seeing them contributing again but totally POV-free the same way they have done at Citizendium. -- FayssalF - 19:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with FayassalF. I'm surprised that the arbcom is willing to unblock someone banned with a clear community consensus per discussion on the incident noticeboard and without a strong reason to involve itself. (This does not look like a case that would be accepted if it had been brought back in November.) I therefore think this looks like bypassing the community, which should only be done when it is clear the arbcom can do a better job of resolving the dispute than the community can. That said, I would welcome Koavf back if he promises not to edit war anymore, but has he done so? If so, where? Picaroon (Talk) 21:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind the Arbitration Committee taking cases like this, so long as the community is given the opportunity of final appeal (i.e. if ArbCom reverses a ban, the community can restore the ban after another discussion). Ral315 » 02:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Two things here. If the community would have the final word than why do we have to go through here? Also, who would define the conditions? -- FayssalF - 02:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

To the first point, it wouldn't be a requirement to go through here, merely another way of reversal. Very rarely would there be a case where a ban reversed by ArbCom would be questionable (I'd argue almost never would this happen). Second, the conditions would be defined by the cases where ArbCom chooses to step in, and afterward, in the cases where someone appeals the ban on WP:AN or elsewhere, and the community agrees that the case is worth looking at. Ral315 » 02:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks and partially agree. Because i heard about a 24h sanction in case of a 3RR infraction. Isn't this applied to all users? If the unblock would be executed under such conditions than the community would surely disagree. But where, how and when? -- FayssalF - 02:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I would assume that this wouldn't apply to any short-term blocks - any ArbCom action taken on a community decision would take at least a week, presumably - I'm talking about this covering blocks of, say, 1 month or more. But since this is a rare case currently, I don't think any real rules on it need to be defined. Ral315 » 03:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Is any kind of official motion really required? This is basically a community ban. By my understand, any admin can undo a community ban, since the definition of a community ban is simply a ban that no admin is willing to undo. I would suggest that someone unblock him unilaterally and then if anyone wants him reblocked they can start a full arbcom case. --Tango 10:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that in addition to being Arbcom members, they are still members of the Misplaced Pages administration community. And as such, any one of them can decide a community ban was inappropriate and overturn it unilaterally. It's patently ludicrous to argue that the Arbcom may not do something in summary motion that they can do as ordinary administrators. It does not really need majority vote either, simply one of the admins saying "I'm dubious over this ban, if people want a ban they should take it to full Arbitration." --Barberio 10:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make and vote on such motions. Other editors may comment on the talk page)

Archives

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