Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:42, 23 May 2007

23 May 2007

Talk:Scientific Revolution/archive1 (closed)

List of people by name

The debate was closed as "no consensus" despite a clear consensus to delete. Apart from the sheer amount of delete comments, most keep comments are not particularly well-founded: "it has been kept before" is not grounds for a procedural keep, especially not after half a year; "it can be maintained" and "it works better than the search function" are proven wrong by precedent; and "it helps people find things if they don't know how to spell them" simply isn't true, because you can't find people on a list if you don't know if e.g. their name starts with "Ar", "Aer", "Er" or "Ier", or some variation thereof.

This page and its subpages purport to be a list of all people with articles in Misplaced Pages. In that, they're hopelessly outdated since, unlike categories, they need manual upkeep. Clearly many people find these lists problematic, outdated and/or unmaintainable. It is therefore not a productive approach to say that "not everybody agrees so let's not do anything". The closing admin declined to respond on his talk page, so I'm listing it here to request overturn and delete. >Radiant< 09:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn and delete. The case for deletion was clearly persuasive enough to get a clear consensus, and the arguments on the keep side for maintaining this hopelessly unmaintainable list are not strong enough to justify calling it any other way. The misspelling argument is pointless for an even better reason than the nominator points out: you can use Google to search Misplaced Pages (which often works far better than the inbuilt engine) and Google is very good at allowing for misspellings. --Sam Blanning 10:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. There was clearly consensus to abolish the present system; the only non-clear point was how to delete it (i.e. what info should be saved). Kusma (talk) 10:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete but hold on. I think the consensus was clear for the deletion, but there were various concerns expressed, either in form "Keep for now" or "Reform". There should be an additional discussion on how an "exit strategy" should be performed and the information moved & reorganized; some proposals were present at the AfD, but a centralized discussion should be held somewhere WPP:BIO? WP:VP? I'm not sure. Duja► 10:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Do not overturn. I disagree that the consensus was clear, and agree with the closing administrator. --Alvestrand 11:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse no consensus - it was "suspended" when I went to look - I wanted to add my opinion, but I couldn't, so if nothing else this deserves another AFD. Throwing in my opinion, I think this should be moved to userspace for now pending an overhaul - I actually agree with the /theory/ of improving navigation and being an annotated contents page of people auto-generated by a bot, because the search is a disaster, but editing by hand obvious isn't working. I believe it's close which makes for a "no consensus", I also don't believe that the delete argument is compelling enough if a technical solution could be sought, which I believe it can, and most of the delete arguments are "per nom" which consist of saying it's impossible to maintain (which could be worked around via a bot for example), an "indiscriminate list" (if turned into a navigational aide and put into Misplaced Pages space is moot), and beside those two there was no real compelling argument to delete and this deletion is likely to prevent the creation of future, similar, useful maintainable lists (which is my experience of AFD/DRV in these sorts of situations) -Halo 12:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The debate was suspended out of process by an involved user (indeed, I've never seen such suspensions before, I suspect he made that up) but this was quickly undone and the debate ran for the regular amount of time. That seems hardly grounds for a "procedural relist". Note that in theory this list page is a nice idea, but in practice it really doesn't work at all. >Radiant< 12:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm just adding my point of view and it stopped me voting, which it did, and forgot about it until my watchlist said it was on DRV. My point was expressly that it's a good idea in theory, while agreeing that the current situation doesn't work and a technical solution should be sought as it could be an extremely useful navigational aide, and the deletion of the page will inevitably prevent a technical replacement from ever happening. I agree with the /page/ and the theory behind it, which few of the people voting delete have actually covered dismissing it as unmaintainable, while not agreeing with the current /technical solution/ behind it's generation. Perhaps some of the people voting delete, particularly those who said "delete per nom" or "delete as unmaintainable" in the original AFD, should address whether they'd be against a similar proposed technical solution? -Halo 13:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this. Arguments for delete are: hopelessly, irredeemably incomplete, useless for all practical purposes. Arguments for keep are: WP:ILIKEIT. Guy (Help!) 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Consensus on the AfD seemed pretty clearly in favor of deletion, and I'm having a hard time finding any ambiguity to it. As stated by the nom, even on a straight up and down headcount the tally is heavily in favor of deleting the article, and when you factor in the weight of the arguments it tilts even further in that direction. Arkyan &#149; 15:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:UBX/Suicide

User:UBX/Suicide (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (restore|cache)

• NOTE that this debate started May 17th.

Cyde deleted this userbox without any sort of discussion or even notification. The matter was brought up on Cyde's talk page but Cyde provided only "common sense" as the criterion for speedy deletion. Other users contested that it was common sense to delete the page. In short, Cyde's deletion was out of process, and the page in question should be undeleted, at which point Cyde or some other user may choose to initiate a proper deletion discussion. The Storm Surfer 05:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that I have reopened this deletion review to allow for further consensus, per this discussion. To see the userbox prior to the deletion, see here. Sr13 09:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep deleted, seems like a good decision to me. That userbox is potentially dangerous (for those who cannot view the history, it is a black userbox with an image of a pill bottle and "This user is suicidal"), and it is indeed common sense to delete it. --Coredesat 06:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Suicidal people is just another group of people like liberals/goths/anarchists, we should not give them special treatment, instead the proper response to treat them as people like ourselves. Wooyi 15:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Restore userbox for heaven's sake. First, suicide-prevention experts encourage people who experience suicidal thoughts to talk about them - I thought that was common sense. We are not doing any suicidal people a favour by deleting this userbox; all we are doing is reinforcing the stigma of mental health problems. Second, we have many userboxes describing contributors' afflictions, including template:User depression. These things help contributors relate to each other and understand how to talk to each other. BTW I don't like the pill bottle picture on it. Kla'quot 06:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  Sticking a userbox on your page is not talking about them. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a counseling service, discussion forum etc. --pgk 07:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  Displaying this userbox is talking about them. Deleting the userbox because WP is not a counselling service is like deleting User:Disavian/Userboxes/Nearsighted because WP is not an opthamology clinic. Kla'quot 07:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  Feel free to nominate it for deletion. It is totally useless for building an encyclopedia. I haven't said we should delete it because wikipedia is not a counselling service, I've said it's not a reason to keep it (which is a different thing). Your analogy fails, no one is saying that userbox should not be deleted because it is part of the healing process for those who are myopic --pgk 07:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  Um, no when you said "Misplaced Pages is not a counselling service" you didn't say whether that was a non-reason to keep or a reason to delete. I think we agree that the userbox's therapeutic benefits to the user are slight. My point is that singling out this userbox for deletion reinforces a stigma. Kla'quot 15:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn Neither divisive nor inflammatory. trialsanderrors 07:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• We are en encyclopedia - don't be so bloody stupid.--Doc 08:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps there's a more civil way to phrase this. --Ssbohio 15:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• …or at least a less ambiguous one. Who's being so bloody stupid? Is it me? I've been known to be stupid sometimes. Is it everyone who thinks this deletion should be overturned? Is it everyone who thinks this deletion should be upheld? — The Storm Surfer 17:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion, keep deleted This is an inflammatory userbox, and Misplaced Pages is not a counselling service.

This userbox has the potential to be misused for nefarious purposes/trolling - remember the incident about the user who apparently threatened suicide on here, then it was revealed to be a hoax?? Keep this deleted. It has WP:BEANS connotations, and that could be particularly nasty. I'm not for or against userboxes per se, but inflammatory userboxes like this show that there are limits as to what is really acceptable for a userbox. I agree with Pgk's comment about it being useless for building an encyclopedia. --SunStar Net 09:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep deleted, divisive template. Obviously. What the fuck, people. --Sam Blanning 11:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

...just as divisive and inflammatory as a userbox of "this user is an aspie" or "this user is an anarchist". Wooyi 15:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• overturn, not divisive or inflammatory, and when is someone going to step in about these deletions? --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • FFS. We're making an encyclopedia - and you are defending blatant trolling. Now, I can respect (but disagree) with your ultra-inclusionism as being in your opinion in the best interests of the encyclopedia. But calling for an undeletion here is simply disrupting wikipedia to make a silly point. Stop it and behave.--Doc 13:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
    • FFS indeed. I'm not defending blatant trolling at all. Don't ask me to behave, start by pestering the folks who are causing these problems (a hint - it's not the people making the boxes). --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted I fail to see how this userbox could be used in a non-disruptive fashion.Lkinkade 13:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see it could be used in a disruptive fashion either. Wooyi 15:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn Not divisive. Not inflammatory. Actually helpful for building the encyclopedia. I was recently reminded that my first visit to RfA was in this discussion, where an admin who "wasn't behaving rationally" (self-description) one day and had stopped using the tools asked if the community trusted them to resume use of the tools. Had we known they were in emotional trouble, we probably could have done a better job helping and minimizing damage done to the encyclopedia. So this userbox is useful for the encyclopedia. GRBerry 13:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Deleted. Sure, not divisive or inflammatory, but an appropriate case of WP:IAR. Give me a freaken break. On top of everything else , for all I know we could be liable - and certainly liable for bad publicity - if a person posted this, we didn't do anything, and the person was then found floating belly-up in the tank. Herostratus 13:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

When can we treat suicidal people not as special people, but just as people like ourselves? Why can't you view them just as you view everyone else? I find this moral panic disconcerting. Wooyi 15:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Deleted. Okay, I wouldn't really mind this going to TFD instead, but this userbox is a really bad idea. This userbox is disruptive: it's a cry for help and will be an unwelcome distraction, not to mention that Misplaced Pages is not the place for suicidal people to get help. Mangojuice 14:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Misplaced Pages is not therapy. Spartaz 15:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No one says Misplaced Pages is a therapy. Wooyi 15:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion. Should have gone through TfD, but it's a disruptive userbox insofar as the drama associated with people intervening (or not) when users announce that they want to kill themselves disrupts our work on the encyclopedia. Sandstein 15:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any instance or potential for this userbox to be disruptive in any way. Wooyi 15:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn to TfD Process is important, so undelete. Out-of-process actions, unless entirely uncontroversial, are bad for the project. By their nature, they are not transparent, and they tend to sow confusion, especially among inexperienced editors. If nothing else, actions like this support the contention that an admin has traded mop & bucket for sword & shield. Untested consensus is no consensus to act. If the feeling against this template is that strong, templates for deletion should rapidly arrive at the same conclusion that Cyde did. --Ssbohio 15:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • How is it controversial to delete a suicidal userbox? Has Misplaced Pages really fallen this low?! --Cyde Weys 17:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
    • By the number of vociferous arguments on both sides, it seems clear to me that it is controversial. — The Storm Surfer 17:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Cyde, StormSurfer has a point. If the deletion was entirely uncontroversial it wouldn't be at deletion review. The fact that anyone took the time to locate and delete this userbox can be used as evidence of how low Misplaced Pages has fallen. The existence (or not) of this (or almost any) userbox pales in importance next to the improvement that could be made to encyclopedia articles. On a (hopefully) humorous grammatical note, wouldn't a suicidal userbox be prone to deleting itself? --Ssbohio 17:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. Process is irrelevant, this is transparently plain silly. Guy (Help!) 16:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I can't believe administrators say things like "Process is irrelevant." — The Storm Surfer 17:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted and stop wasting our time. Where in the hell has common sense gotten to these days anyway? --Cyde Weys 17:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion - While this probably did not qualify for WP:CSD#T1, it is a waste of effort to overturn to TfD because this is clearly not constructive to the project and likely to be disruptive. —dgies_c 17:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm glad everyone thinks their own opinion is trivially correct, but GRBerry at least suggested that it is useful for the encyclopedia. — The Storm Surfer 17:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion This was a good deletion.--MONGO 17:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• A comment I've said this before, and I'll say it again just for clarity:

This is an inflammatory userbox, and Misplaced Pages is not a counselling service. This userbox has the potential to be misused for nefarious purposes/trolling - remember the incident about the user who apparently threatened suicide on here, then it was revealed to be a hoax?? Keep this deleted. It has WP:BEANS connotations, and that could be particularly nasty. I'm not for or against userboxes per se, but inflammatory userboxes like this show that there are limits as to what is really acceptable for a userbox. I agree with Pgk's comment about it being useless for building an encyclopedia.

— User:SunStar Net

This comment is controversial, I realize that, but this one does have problems, in a moral, legal and publicity sense. To undelete it would be a very bad idea. --SunStar Net 19:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion, a no-brainer. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy; it's ridiculous to insist that process be followed in an obvious case where rules should be ignored to improve Misplaced Pages. Krimpet (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I am the one who made the userbox, and I just want to clear something up: I did not make it to troll, disrupt, seek any sort of help, or for attention. I made it only because it is true. I cooled down since Cyde's cold and apathetic attitude on the matter, but I see that Misplaced Pages, nor society, is not ready to accept suicide, for whatever reason. I don't see how it's disruptive, as I was probably the only one who was ever going to use it, and my userpage isn't exactly the most popular, but that doesn't matter now. I support it's undeletion, but it seems Misplaced Pages's users really have a stigma for it: so be it. Make any snide comment about this as you like: I will not respond either way. Let those who argue that Misplaced Pages is not a place for such things know that it was merely a little fact about myself, nothing more important than the fact that I like spaghetti. And let ignorance remain bliss. Just wanted to say something before it gets deleted. -Eridani 21:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. If this were undeleted, would there be liability problems if users were to use this and subsequently not receive counseling? --Alan Au 21:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's a person's free choice whether to commit suicide or not. Wooyi 23:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you show me your law degree as basis for your assertion? This is a serious real life issue; it isn't something any amateur can just make up answers to. --Cyde Weys 12:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether there would be liability. I do know that no-one here is qualified to say whether there would be liability or not. And I know we don't need the uncertainty. --138.38.251.193 13:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong overturn sorry for foul language here, but seriously, wtf? This userbox not only should be kept, but it's also a very good one. We have userboxes that express the user's identity, like we have userboxes to indicate the user being Republican, Democrat, libertarian, goth, emo, geek, depressed, aspie, why we can't indicate the user is suicidal? I've seen now admins like Cyde trying to wage a war on teenagers, basically. Wooyi 21:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Yeah, you caught me. I'm waging a war against teenagers. Uh-huh. You teenagers need to get over yourselves; the world is not out to get you. --Cyde Weys 12:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
    • We knew you had it in for userboxes, but teenagers too? How about puppies? (I'm kidding) This isn't the angst- & drama-ridden discussion that some of these comments (not speaking strictly of Cyde's) would indicate. It's definitely not a clear-cut and uncontroversial deletion, so it should go through the process. --Ssbohio 17:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• I'm still on the fence on this one and don't like userboxes in general, but there is a difference between "This user is suicidal," on the one hand, and "This user is about to commit suicide" or "This user advocates suicide" on the other. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 01:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion - If you have suicidal problems, go see a psychiatrist. Misplaced Pages's not your cry room.--WaltCip 01:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, if you have the problem of being a Democrat, go to a psych ward...I'm a Democrat and I use Misplaced Pages as a cry room...what kind of absurd logic is that? What's the difference between being suicidal and being conservative/liberal/anarchist? Wooyi 02:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Being suicidal can be used as a tool for disruption; being a Democrat isn't ("omg i hate u all im gonna go democratic" isn't quite a threat.) This isn't a userbox supporting a specific stance, such as "I support the right to end one's life," this is one saying "I'm suicidal." For people who are legitimately suicidal, Misplaced Pages is not MySpace. For trolls and people unable to handle disputes, this has a high potential for disruption. (Of course, people could do that without the userbox, but there's no need to have it around as bait.) Phony Saint 02:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion for obvious reasons. We don't need stuff like this here. Misplaced Pages is not group therapy. --BigDT 02:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The userbox is not for therapy either. Wooyi 15:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• NOTE I have created a less offensive box in User:Wooyi/sdissues, please take a look and see if that's ok. Wooyi 02:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

  How about "This user sometimes has suicidal thoughts."? It would be more in line with the other mental health userboxes. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 17:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think any userbox indicating the user could commit suicide would be acceptable. What would you do if you were in a dispute with someone who stated he/she was suicidal? Phony Saint 18:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion, but we do need a compromise here to get things done. We can't build an encyclopedia if people around all have different sorts of grievances. Let's treat suicidal people just like regular human beings, as Democrats and Republicans, as punks and geeks. Wooyi 19:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion - clearly inappropriate userbox to me. --After Midnight 03:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and list, the wide variety of contradictory strongly-held opinions here make one thing clear: this is not a clear-cut case! It is clearly disturbing—I find it disturbing—but disturbing is not exactly the same as divisive or inflammatory. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this one, but this is quickly turning into an XfD debate, and DRV is not the place for XfD, so I think we should run a proper XfD debate to get a wider audience. Xtifr _tälk 03:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
  • T1 (divisive and inflammatory) applies only to templates. This was in userspace and that criterion is not applicable. This deletion was an IAR/Bold deletion, and, in my view, one that absolutely needed to be made. The last thing we need is parents blaming Misplaced Pages because some kid put this UBX on their page and nobody intervened, or, worse, that someone from Misplaced Pages pushed the kid over the edge. --BigDT 21:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Deletion I was very surprised to see anything about helping potential suicides on wikipedia. I think we should remember this is just an encyclopedia. Anything that happens outside can't be fully its responsibility. The problem must have already been fuming. --Tellerman
• Oh, for God's sake. Extreme monkey endorse deletion. When process becomes more important than content, then Misplaced Pages is lost. Corvus cornix 20:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Overturn If somebody has this userbox on their userpage or somewhere else, then somebody can talk to them away from Misplaced Pages, and get them some help, or encourage them to do so. If you want to delete it, at least put it through AfD, and do it right.--CJ King 21:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
• Don't be silly I'm surprised to see people like Cyde and JzG taking IAR justification for granted on their action to delete the box. Of course their motivation is intolerance, is bigotry, against suicidal people. Why can't we just treat them as regular human beings? We treat goths, gays, anarchists, and Republicans like ordinary people, why can't we do the same to suicidal people? In another hand, self-identified suicidal people can be very helpful for Misplaced Pages, just as anarchist have an expertise in anarchism-related articles, suicidal people should be encouraged to edit suicide-related topics, which is their area of expertise. To build an encyclopedia we need our basic open-mindedness for all human beings, including suicidal ones. Suicidal people is just another group of people, there is nothing to worry about. Everyone act on their free choice. Again, we are here to build an encyclopedia, we need people from different background. We need Democrats as we need Republicans, we need goths as well as punks, we need non-suicidal people as well as suicidal ones. Pretty simple. Wooyi 01:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn topic of the userbox aside, proper deletion policy should be followed. JPG-GR 04:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

• Check WP:PPP and WP:IAR.--WaltCip 13:35, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You've cited an essay and a policy that doesn't necessary apply in this case. I fail to see how this prevents improving or maintaining WP. JPG-GR 18:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You said this should be taken through proper deletion policy. We're already in the process of deleting it, so relisting to AFD for the sake of policy is unnecessary, if not manipulative.--WaltCip 20:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:IAR only authorizes actions that improve the encyclopedia. Once we are having a discussion about whether something improves the encyclopedia, citing IAR is a circular argument, not a valid argument. IAR also requires that the rules prevent the improvement, not merely that the rules would delay the improvement. Absent a claim that unreasonable results have occurred in MfD for this specific page, IAR isn't relevant. Without holding an MfD, it can't produce unreasonable results. In fact, IAR is almost never relevant to an explanation here. GRBerry 19:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion If nothing else, the prescribed method was just cruel. No one should be encouraged to experience the awful pain of acute liver failure that accompanies an acetaminophen overdose. If the userbox suggested a proper suicide cocktail, then... nah, still a horrible idea. ˉˉ╦╩ 14:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

No one has encouraged overdosing...why can't you treat suicidal people just like everyone else, just like Democrats and Republicans, I find this moral panic disconcerting. I've been painstakingly reiterated that suicidal people is just another group of people, like goths/liberals/geeks. Wooyi 15:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Suicidals aren't just a different "group" of people along the lines of various political/social affiliations. There's a difference between having a certain opinion on big government vs. small government and wanting to kill yourself. You still don't understand why this is being deleted. It's because claiming to be suicidal is stupid, disruptive, and has liability concerns for Misplaced Pages if someone has that on their page, nobody steps in to help, and then they end up offing themselves. And stop throwing around phrases that you don't understand like "moral panic". There's no moral panic here. If anyone wants to be so stupid as to kill themselves, let them. You can't catch suicidalism. --Cyde Weys 16:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think Wooyi has confused the term "suicidalist" and "masochist."--WaltCip 17:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I find suicide to be a morally neutral endeavor. Suicidal people don't constitute a clique, they are individuals in the midst of a psychiatric emergency. Further, we have no way of judging whether each use of this template is deliberate trolling, a symptom of some personality disorder, or a real plea for help. In any case you would have amateur therapists popping up to recklessly attempt to reason with the user, others to fan the flames and try to involve every official agency they could contact, and yet more users that become personally invested out of empathy or some vague sense of responsibility. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria. So, um, lets avoid that. If an editor expresses any wish to commit suicide, politely refer him/her to a mental health professional and discourage any attempt to seek intervention through Misplaced Pages channels. ˉˉ╦╩ 19:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point and Cyde's. However, still, IMHO, suicidal people are not "individuals in the midst of a psychiatric emergency". They are a group, a "subculture" if you like to use that term. It is connected to a desire, i.e. the desire to die, as many groups do have a desire to do something, like stoners have the desire to smoke marijuana, bookworms have a desire to read, plain simple. What we need to do is to treat them as ordinary people, without prejudice or patronizing attitude. Wooyi 19:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

If you honestly believe that suicidal individuals are not in the midst of a psychiatric emergency, then I don't think we have anything more to discuss. ˉˉ╦╩ 19:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

(unindented) Well, I can understand why people are so afraid of seeing people "suicidal" because of the life/death issue. However, a "desire" to die is different from the action of suicide. Many have been suicidal, having the desire to die, but never actually do it. It's the same logic that if a person has sadist desires but never actually beat/torture/kill anyone, no law enforcement would go after him. Being "suicidal" and commit suicide killing yourself is two different issues. Wooyi 19:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As far as I know, we don't have a group at my high school that proudly call themselves the "suicidals" (and if we did, 9/10ths of them would have been admitted to a mental health ward by now.) Wooyi, use a bit of common sense - by your logic, there are subcultures out there of arsonists, thieves, murderers, and terrorists. Should we include userboxes for them too? I'm a bit nervous about the idea of having a userbox with a text that reads "This user identifies himself as a terrorist" next to a stereotypical picture of Osama Bin Laden.--WaltCip 19:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

"Many have been suicidal, having the desire to die, but never actually do it." Because he or she hasn't DONE IT YET. There are three stages: wanting to commit suicide, committing suicide, and then having committed suicide. There is no "I want to commit suicide, but I haven't yet, maybe I will, but I won't, or shouldn't, but I really want to."--WaltCip 19:52, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

"I want to commit suicide, but I haven't yet, maybe I will, but I won't, or shouldn't, but I really want to." That's exactly the case many people experience. Take an analogy, when myself get really stressed out, I may have a desire to smoke a cigarette, but I know smoking is not ok for minors and is bad for health, so I don't do it despite the desire. People contemplate about death, sometimes wanting it, yet realize the legal/moral obligation not to kill yourself notwithstanding the desire to do it. That's the essence of being "suicidal". Wooyi 20:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Restore for heaven's sake. Misplaced Pages is NOT a censor. OK, it IS supposed to be a "serious" project, but if people can have "This user likes donuts" then why not this userbox? Please be mature and at least give sensitive issues like this a proper forum before deletion. — superbfc — 21:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Strong endorse deletion. This userbox, trumpeting as it does the self-destructive tendencies of anyone who might use it, is patently unacceptable and harmful to the mission of the encyclopedia. Any userbox in this category should be considered "deletable on sight" by any admin. Cyde made exactly the right call. Nandesuka 13:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep deleted, good call. Kusma (talk) 09:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Why was this relisted? It looks like a pretty compelling consensus in favor of endorsing the deletion. --BigDT 12:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • It was reopened by the originally closing admin. The discussion that led him to do this appears to be at User talk:Ssbohio#Deletion of suicide userbox. GRBerry 13:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• I endorse this deletion. It was a good call by Cyde. --Tony Sidaway 14:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Crystal Gail Mangum

Crystal Gail Mangum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Another controversial WP:BLP deletion, heavily contested on the article's talk page. This article had over 30 sources (as can be verified by the Google cache (), and is a central figure in the 2006 Duke University lacrosse team scandal. Although her name was confidential during much of the scandal, it has already been published by reliable media sources, including Fox News. Although there were some issues with the article's overall tone, these could have been handled by a number of methods short of deletion. It could have been handled by stubbing the article (and protecting it for a while, if necessary) so that changes could be discussed first on talk and vetted for potential BLP issues. It could have been handled by redirecting to a section in the main scandal article and then protecting that redirect (indeed, this was done briefly today, and I have no idea why it didn't remain that way). Deletion and salting without any discussion was clearly inappropriate. A brief perusal of Google demonstrates the subject's notability, and even if the existing article was problematic, salting is unjustified unless no good article could possibly be written (or redirect placed) at that title. That clearly is not the case here. Also, a previous AFD resulted in Keep. *** Crotalus *** 04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Note to all Some commentary has been moved to the talk page. It will need to be courtesy blanked later. Please do not say anything else that will need to be courtesy blanked. GRBerry 13:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Uh, wow. Undelete and fix. There was a good version to go back to at one point, even if that ends up being the one kept at AfD a year ago. If you want it deleted, AfD's down the hall. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete Heavily covered by the media, clearly notable, this should've been sent to AFD. — MichaelLinnear 04:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Undelete. Whether we like it or not, there are sources that exist to write about her. I don't see any urgent BLP concerns that warrant deletion. --- RockMFR 04:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Although, it obviously should be left up to editorial judgment (read: not speedy deletion) whether to merge/redirect to the main article. The sort of details in the article are the kind that nobody will care about in 5 years (or now, for that matter). --- RockMFR 04:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Unsalt, redirect and protect. - Her name is in the first sentence of 2006 Duke University lacrosse team scandal, for crying out loud. AfD is fine too. ˉˉ╦╩ 04:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete - *** Crotalus ***, Thank You. I am surprised by the heavy hand wielded by two editors who had not (to the best of my knowledge) been interested or edited at the two articles before today. I uploaded an appropriate image of the false accuser (Crystal Gail Mangum) a couple times, which was deleted each time with no record of who did the deletion or why. This move does not fit in with WP policy, AFAIK. Did those two editors act in good faith, or should they be called on the carpet for their actions? Duke53 | 04:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• The image was apparently deleted for lack of a fair use rationale. The article was deleted for reasons that are unclear to me; the existing state of the article had some problems, but these could have been handled by one of the two other methods I described above. A full deletion and salting was not appropriate. *** Crotalus *** 04:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• There was discussion and a defense of the fair use rationale of this same exact image within the last two weeks and it was decided then to keep the image. What has changed since then? Duke53 | 05:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Does she really need her own article? No, not really, but that's an issue for AFD. Since her name has already been made public by the media, that's not an issue for us, so overturn and list at AFD. Considering that I have been edit conflicted by four people wanting this overturned, we may even want to consider a speedy close as a clearly out of process deletion. --BigDT 04:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• David Gerard had it as a protected redirect, which I think was about right. It should be unsalted and replaced by a protected redirect. The article about the affair has all the relevant information, and the article about the person had become an attack piece. Deleting under biographies of living persons was correct in this case. The history must not be undeleted. --Tony Sidaway 04:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • As stated in the nomination, I have no objection to either redirecting to a section of the main scandal article, or deleting the history and protecting a new stub that can then be further discussed on talk with a careful eye to BLP issues. But having a redlink there is clearly wrong. *** Crotalus *** 04:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

    There may be an argument for a protected redlink. I'd like to hear why it was deleted. I was the person who made the redirect, which I thought was about right. --Tony Sidaway 04:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Undelete and protect. Review it for tone, and DISCUSS changes. Remember that 'balanced' does not mean 'say one good thing for every bad thing'--it means that the article shouldn't be slanted--at least that's what people editing other articles seem to think. Marieblasdell 04:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete. I don't even need to see the article - if it survives an AfD, speedy deletion is never justified'. BLP issues may require a revert back a long time, but not a speedy. Especially since 30 sources is unquestionably not a violation. If people wish to use BLP to mean "any article which could cause any concievable harm to anyone ever", then they either need a consensus to do that, or they need a statement from someone who can dictate policy. Which includes nobody here. -Amarkov moo! 04:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Actually the article was pretty rank. --Tony Sidaway 04:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  And...? -Amarkov moo! 04:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  No And. No But, either. It was vile. --Tony Sidaway 05:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Obviously people did not agree with that. I do not understand why the concept that community discussion overrules vague claims of badness is so hard to grasp. -Amarkov moo! 05:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Community discussions do not overrule Biography of living persons. No vague claims, either. It was vile, an attack piece. --Tony Sidaway 05:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Or maybe it was fair and you are simply biased. I noticed your user talk page is filled with complaints that you single-handedly make massive editing changes all over Misplaced Pages. I fail to see how this works toward consensus. It's my opinion that the article is far too personal to you for you to work on it. Perhaps it would be prudent for you simply to recuse yourself from the entire issue and search Misplaced Pages for other articles you're not quite so passionate about that you can edit. Regards, Ikilled007 06:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  See Misplaced Pages:Be bold. My massive edits have a habit of sticking, despite the fact that I don't edit war. Seems to suggest that I've got a good eye for what will work on wikipedia. --Tony Sidaway 15:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Tony, earlier today you stated that you had never read WP:BLP "I haven't read our biographies of living persons policy, I just follow commonsense", now you're citing it? Uncle uncle uncle 05:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Absolutely. Any questions? --Tony Sidaway 05:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Yep! - Did you read the policy this afternoon, or do you just guess at what it says? Uncle uncle uncle 05:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Nope, still haven't read it, no intention to. Yes, I just guess what it says. Seems to work quite well. --Tony Sidaway 06:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  If the community discussion arrives at the decision that it does not violate BLP, there is no issue of overruling to consider. You realize that your arguments are beginning to look like "The community can't overrule my decisions on if an article violates policy"? -Amarkov moo! 05:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Community discussion alone does not determine whether an article violates Biography of living persons. --Tony Sidaway 05:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Even accepting that ridiculous statement for the sake of argument, a handful of admins alone don't determine if an article violates BLP either. -Amarkov moo! 05:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Actually they do. At the end of this discussion an admin is going to have a look and see if the article violated Biography of living persons. It can't just be undeleted willy-nilly. --Tony Sidaway 05:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Um, no, the admin will evaluate the consensus on if it violated BLP, not just impose whatever they happen to think. It can't be kept deleted willy-nilly either. -Amarkov moo! 05:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  That's wishful thinking. Consensus does not govern Biographies of living persons. --Tony Sidaway 05:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Are there any admins following this exchange? Is this attitude in any way at all appropriate? I think this warrants some looking into. Perhaps some of Tony Sidaway's other edits need further examination. He clearly doesn't think that Misplaced Pages policies apply to him. Again, I ask, is this a proper attitude? Ikilled007 06:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Could you explain this further? I'm sure most clueful administrators understand why David protected the redirect. He was implementing Misplaced Pages policy, so it's hard to argue that he thinks it doesn't apply to him. --Tony Sidaway 15:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Undelete - the problems can be fixed. 24.252.101.35 05:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  ::"Actually the article was pretty rank". And ..., the method used to bury it was equally as 'rank'. Duke53 | 05:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Not really. Routine delete and salt. The damage to persons caused by such attack articles merits this. --Tony Sidaway 05:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  I'm not sure you're aware of the height of interest in this story, Tony. I don't know how much of it got across the pond, but there is really no way that a Misplaced Pages entry could do any harm in this case - she's famously notorious, without question. --badlydrawnjeff talk 05:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  And the media fallout is still continuing to this day. — MichaelLinnear 05:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Heightened public interest does not justify the construction of attack articles about private individuals. --Tony Sidaway 05:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Well, it wasn't always an attack article, and she's not a private individual anymore. You can't simply shout BLP without a little oomph behind it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 05:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  I reviewed it, David Gerard reviewed it, and presumably so did the admin who deleted it. That's oomph enough. She's still a private individual. --Tony Sidaway 05:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Hmmm, the DRV is saying different though. — MichaelLinnear 05:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Really? Not that I've noticed. --Tony Sidaway 05:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Is this sort of behavior really routine? If so, what's the point of anyone working on Misplaced Pages in good faith? Marieblasdell 05:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  It's easy to have your work remain on Misplaced Pages. Just don't write attack pieces. --Tony Sidaway 05:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Uh, I'll hope that you didn't mean that the way it sounds. It comes across to me as a nasty insult toward my good-faith, though minor, attempts to improve the article. Marieblasdell 05:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  No it's intended to reassure you that this case does not impinge on the general Misplaced Pages editor. --Tony Sidaway 05:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think what some people are missing here is that just about everything relevant to this woman's notability is already in 2006 Duke University lacrosse team scandal. The article about the woman herself was just an excuse for muckraking into her none-too-salubrious past. Not a suitable subject for Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 05:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  What has made her less notable than she was a year ago, when the vote was to not delete the article? Marieblasdell 05:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  I don't think anyone has argued that the woman herself isn't notable. The issue is that the article was vile. --Tony Sidaway 06:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  You keep saying that the article is vile, rank. Since when is the Misplaced Pages editing rule that there must be 'nothing that would bring the blush of shame to the maiden cheek', to quote a typical Victorian editor. I may have overlooked your edits in the last week, where you tried to delete the inappropriate sections? Marieblasdell 06:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  When I say it was rank, and vile, I mean that it was a muckraking hatchet job. There is a very storng policy against that kind of article on Misplaced Pages. The policy is known as Biographies of living persons. --Tony Sidaway 06:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Which you say you have never read? :)Duke53 | 06:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Written policy is greatly overrated. It does not rule Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 14:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  There is an article about Virginia Tech massacre and then an article about the person who caused the mess, Seung-Hui Cho. This scandal and then the woman who made false accussations is no different and should have both articles. SakotGrimshine 12:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Bad analogy, given the "L" part of "BLP". Tarc 13:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Undelete. There was absolutely no justification to delete it without any form of discussion. I will agree that there may have been issues with some of the details, but she is absolutely a public figure at this point, and while the facts of the case reflect poorly upon her, they are still facts. The article was extensively sourced with reliable sources, and the information that appears to be upsetting you the most is the information used by the defense lawyers to deprecate her honesty, which is highly relevant under the circumstances. FWIW, the extent of my edits on that page were limited to reverting a pair of particularly persistent vandals, so I really have no personal stake in this issue. Horologium talk - contrib 05:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  You just shot your case in the foot by admitting that the article was not balanced. --Tony Sidaway 06:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Not at all. I'd hope that the proper response for an unbalanced article would be editing, not deletion. If we delete any article that has 'issues with some of the details', which was what he 'admitted to', there wouldn't be much content in Misplaced Pages. Marieblasdell 06:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, I'd like to see why it was deleted. I think the redirect was okay. However deletion is a good temporary option. Recall also that just about everything we know about this person that is relevant and encyclopedic is already in the main article about the scandal. --Tony Sidaway 06:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  One of the reasons given for deleting it, over on the talk page, was that it was extensively sourced! Also, that it had positive material in it--a reference to her 3.0 GPA. I agree that her GPA isn't something important, but I'm sure it was added in an attempt to provide positive balancing information. Marieblasdell 05:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, the article was ridiculously heavily sourced. This isn't unusual in the case of attack articles. See Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Undue_weight. --Tony Sidaway 06:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  (more comments at talk)

• Undelete. Out of control editors unilaterally took it upon themselves to forcefeed their Point of View on Misplaced Pages. The notion that Crystal Gail Mangum does not warrant a biographical article is so absurd that it can only come from a mendacious reviewer. It's obvious that Misplaced Pages is the new frontline of ideological warfare and it's disgusting that editors can't work toward consensus. The article's redirecting was a heinous act of bad faith. Ikilled007 06:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment I would like to hear from the two admins involved in this decision (Tony Sidaway and David Gerard) precisely what was the problem with the article. Not "violates BLP' or "Violates undue weight". I am asking for objections to specific phrases or sections, so that those who feel that this article is valid understand the rationale for a speedy delete. As I noted on the talk page for the article, Monica Lewinsky and Monica Coghlan were also people who were tangentially involved in a single notable issue; I will be a bit provacative and mention QZ, who was similarly unwittingly involved, and was also the subject of an alleged BLP vio. And Tony, please don't misrepresent what I said. I said there was issues with some of the details (such as the GPA, which was irrelevant; the whole college enrollment thing was irrelevant), but that doesn't mean I said the article was unbalanced, and as I noted earlier, the portions that you probably dislike the most are the ones that are most relevant to the case. Horologium talk - contrib 06:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Apparently only one of the guys you mentioned above is an admin ... from what I am understanding there was also a second (unnamed) admin involved in deleting and burying the article, etc. Duke53 | 07:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be User:David Gerard who has been busily nuking everything related to this article. Photos, previous history...Both have been working seemingly in tandem on this since the whole thing erupted. Horologium talk - contrib 07:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I believe that somebody mentioned ("I reviewed it, David Gerard reviewed it, and presumably so did the admin who deleted it") another admin (as yet not named) as being involved in the feeding frenzy, not just the two guys previously mentioned. Duke53 | 07:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, looking at the log (at the top of this discussion), it appears that User:Zsinj was the one who deleted it. Horologium talk - contrib 07:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

All i did (or so I thought) was cleaning up the history of the page by deleting all revision except for the one which contained the protectedpage template. Zsinj 12:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Would this not be solved by redirecting the article to 2006 Duke University lacrosse team scandal? >Radiant< 07:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  It was a redirect, but it's been contested, and User:David Gerard nuked the article and salted it, with no discussion permitted, please. Horologium talk - contrib 07:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  As noted in the nomination, the above would be an acceptable solution to me. (I can't, of course, speak for the other commenters.) Another possibility is reducing the article to a stub and then protecting it, and discussing changes on the talk page to avoid BLP issues. This has been done before with other articles, I think. *** Crotalus *** 07:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  I could live with a stub being expanded into a full article through consensus. What happened here was not that. Horologium talk - contrib 07:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Undelete - Get the history back, maybe switch it to a redirect. The application of BLP is a fucking joke around here, we'll be blanking articles on criminals next because we're giving the crime "undue weight", and deleting them for "deceny" reasons because they're fat. We're a fucking encyclopedia. - hahnchen 07:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• BLP beats all the "votes" possible on DRV. This was established recently by Jeff's previouis exciting arbitration case and is about to be established in the next one - David Gerard 07:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Please explain to me why neither protecting a redirect, nor protecting a stub and then carefully discussing additions on the talk page, would have met the requirements of BLP. Why is an ugly redlink needed? Furthermore, the discussion on both the last AFD and this DRV clearly calls the BLP allegations into question. This is why I wanted to draw the line earlier than this — if this keeps up, pretty soon we'll have nothing on Misplaced Pages but hagiographies. *** Crotalus *** 13:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  "BLP" is not a magic word that can be used to justify out-of-process deletions and protections. You have to discuss, allow other users to discuss and explain how the article was so drastically in violation of WP:BLP that this action was necessary. Prolog 09:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  You have to first demonstrate that this is a BLP violation. You must then demonstrate that there's no non-BLP-violation available. And so on and so forth. You can't just scream "BLP! BLP!" and have it be done with. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  It doesn't work like that. We've grown up a bit. Attack articles are speediable anyway. --Tony Sidaway 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  No, it does work like that. Thiswould be an excellent time to read WP:BLP, Tony. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Without looking at this one yet, I simply note that a claim of WP:BLP is not a self validating claim. To stand, it needs to be supported by specific facts about the article and its prior versions; the criteria being set out within WP:BLP. Are those criteria met? GRBerry 13:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Undelete. The article survived Afd by strong consensus. The proper forums for changes, deletion etc. in this case are WP:AFD and Talk:Crystal Gail Mangum. Looking at the page histories and the logs, this whole mess seems to be a WP:POINT violation involving two or three users. Despite how good their intentions might be, this is simply disruptive. Prolog 09:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point (also known as WP:POINT) refers to someone making an edit that he knows to be damaging in order to illustrate the potentially damaging effect of a suggested line of action or of actions performed under an existing policy. It doesn't apply to good faith actions performed by Wikipedians in order to improve the encyclopedia. A good faith removal under Biographies of living persons is, furthermore, calculated to reduce disruption, so it's hard to argue that it's more disruptive than maintaining unencyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 14:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

  Controversial bold actions in controversial articles usually lead to drama. There were over 700 revisions to revert to, and that fact combined with the edit button and the talk page would have produced a much more appropriate result. Prolog 15:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Undelete. Due to the amount of problems BLP-related articles are experiencing with regard to deletion, undeleting it would allow further discussion which is clearly warranted. BLP is not a magic wand to make not-nice articles disappear. Zsinj 12:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete with full restore and reprimand the deleters -- She is not a victim or even alleged victim. She is a victimizer who falsely accused three people of rape. Her false allegations likely were motivated in part from her own racism. There's an article about the guy who kicked in and shot up V-TECH, so there should be an article about her. The real victims were the people she falsely accused. Wikitruth.info has a good version explaining this. SakotGrimshine 12:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Leave it as it is: What we have here is an article including every single bit of information that any media source has managed to dig up about this person, including medical records, grade point average, previous unrelated employment, dates of birth of her children - and this is the cleaned up version. Many of the originating sources used in this article - quotes from the lawyers of the accused, her former employer (whose club is now getting all kinds of free advertising), opinion pieces and so on - are hardly objective and reliable sources, even if they are quoted by others. Everything left after removing the irrelevant personal information and the information from questionable sources is already in the main article. The administrative actions, while bold, were entirely correct and within the requirements of BLP. Risker 12:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete Redirect to the incident maybe, but just turning this into a redlink is very misguided. I'll now load IRC so I can hear the snarky comments about me. --W.marsh 14:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete too many sources to qualify for G10.Geni 14:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted Not notable in herself and a hindrance to her future, we are not hand of fate in charge of hanging albatrosses about people's neck. Fred Bauder 14:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undelete Although it's practically piling on at this point. Other than Tony Sidaway and David Gerard, who seem to think they don't need to answer to anyone but themselves, I think there is consensus that CGM is a proper subject for an article. I looked at the previous version via Google, and it could probably be cut down to 1/2 to 1/3 its previous length by simply eliminating information that is already available in the main article - which is also the same material that I suspect is most objectionable to Sidaway and Gerard. Unlearned hand 14:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment The people who blanked/protected redirected the article might have been trying an IAR-type thing, which they believe would better the project, so people probably shouldn't get annoyed with them. The complete initial lack of an explanation and avoidance of discussion of the issue until badgered into it helps better nothing, though. Voretus 15:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• undelete the amount of interest and coverage at Misplaced Pages alone speaks for itself. --roy<sac> .oOo. 15:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - I am unconvinced that there is any persuasive reason to keep this separately from the scandal article. What about her is significant that is not something that would be covered in a well-written article on the scandal? Phil Sandifer 15:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per WP:CSD#G10, pages that serve no purpose but to disparage their subject. It is abundandtly clear form the content and history of this article and 2006 Duke University lacrosse team scandal thast both have always exiosted primarily as a vendetta against this individual, pursued zealously by the team and their supporters. Guy (Help!) 15:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Connections Academy (closed)

Enchanted Forest Water Safari

Enchanted Forest Water Safari (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Unnecessary deletion I created this page and found it deleted; I did not enter enough information initially, so I went back and found non-partisan sources and generated detailed information about the topic. I found that the page had been repeatedly deleted by user Mhking, who stated that I did not cite third-party sources. Although my page did cite third-party sources, I cited to Mhking other pages (such as Six Flags Theme Park) that do not cite sources, but were warned rather than deleted. I am from central new york and have no vested interest in Enchanted Forest, but wish to participate in Misplaced Pages in a meaningful manner. I would like the opportunity to finish the page and provide useful information about this and other topics. Thank you for your time. Jjm10 01:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment why not just re-create the article? -N 01:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Response He has tried to re-create and it sources. It was suggested that he come to request deletion review. Discussion here Uncle uncle uncle 04:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Canadian Royal Family (closed)