Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:58, 26 May 2007

Estland

Estland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This page is not linked from any main namespace article as it is misnamed. 'Estland' used to be one of old names for Estonia, derived from German. This article was apparently originally created to push the WP:POV that there existed an Estonian state on Estonian territory prior to the Republic of Estonia, which is incorrect; now, this has been removed and all that remains is historical data which is already available in History of Estonia. Digwuren 22:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following redirection pages:

Eestimaa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Duchy of Estland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Eestimaa Hertsogiriik (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Litauen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• I fixed the AfD discussion for you; you forgot to replace "PageName" with the name of the page. Ten Pound Hammer •  22:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes I did. I clicked 'Save page' too early ... Digwuren 22:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Why are you not listing those four redirects on redirects for deletion?--Dhartung | Talk 08:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• I was not aware I should do that. Digwuren 03:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• They are now listed. Digwuren 03:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy keep. What do you mean it's misnamed and so forth? It's clearly linked to from many other pages. I see no reason to delete it. Ten Pound Hammer •  22:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
• Merge to Estonia, now that I know the truth per User:Valentinian. Ten Pound Hammer •  23:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Everything useful that is currently in Estland appears to have been merged into History of Estonia already. Digwuren 00:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• With the possible exception of the links regarding the Anvelt's revolution. These, too, should be reviewed and merged. Digwuren 00:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• It appears I was mistaken. When I first used 'What links here', all I saw were various groupings and categories, not main articles.

I will go through the mistaken references and redirect them to Estonia instead. Digwuren 22:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I have completed this task. There weren't many references. Digwuren 22:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Delete. I've long wondered why this one remained about, and it contains nothing that isn't better contained in History of Estonia. Both this article and the Kingdom of Livonia was created by socks of the same banned user, but the difference is that Kingdom of Livonia theoretically could have potential, now that we've got rid of some of its worst excesses. Valentinian 22:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Btw, "Estland" is simply the German, Danish and Swedish name for "Estonia". Valentinian 22:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

And I don't see the harm in the Litauen redirect to Lithuania. It is simply the German and Scandinavian name. For that matter, Estland could simply be converted to redirect to Estonia by the same criterion. Valentinian 23:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not knowledgeable enough regarding Litauen, but there's a significant problem with Estland. Specifically, it can refer to the historical Estland region (known for a while as the Revel Governorate), or the current Estonia, which includes former Estland and parts of former Livonia. Furthermore, I do not consider disambiguation the proper way to resolve this issue, as disambiguation loses context. Instead, every link should explicitly refer to whatever is proper (which I tried to achieve). It helps that 'Estland' is not actively being used in English. Digwuren 00:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, my bad, I misunderstood. Ten Pound Hammer •  23:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• No, it was my bad. I botched the deletion proposal, causing confusion to happen. I apologise. Digwuren 00:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Redirect to Estonia alternate name (German, Swedish). Carlossuarez46 00:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

And Danish, Norwegian, and Faroese ;) Valentinian 00:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I redirected Eestimaa, Duchy of Estland and Eestimaa Hertsogiriik to Estonia. As for Estland, all of its contents is in other articles already. Change to redirect - or disambiguation page, as there is "Estland" is also the name of a phantom island on the Zeno map" DLX 04:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. 'Estland' should, as of now, most probably redirect to 'Estonia', and the subject matter merged to articles about the history of Estonia, where applicable. As for the source of the confusion, perhaps an altogether separate article would be in order to explain the various current and historical usage patterns of the terms Est- and Liv- / -s, -onia, -onians, ("-land"), etc. Cheers, --3 Löwi 05:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete unreferenced original research/POV and redirect to Estonia. --Dhartung | Talk 08:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect. Simply the name for Estonia in most Germanic languages except English. JdeJ 19:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• I have pondered, and I am fine with making Estland into a disambiguation page. I still believe the others ought to be deleted, though. Digwuren 04:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Stop this madness – if necessary, by administrator action!

1. This thing is real – and it is not the same as Estonia. It also has separate articles in Estonian (Eestimaa), Russian (Эстляндия)and Dutch (Estland (gebied)) Wikipedias.

   The Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition from 1911 calls this entry “Esthonia”.

   Esthonia corresponds to the territories of Danish Estonia, Principality of Estland, Swedish Estonia and the Imperial Russian Reval Governorate.

   Before 1917 the current territory of Estonia consisted of “Estland” and the northern part of Livonia. According to EB1911, in 1897 365,959 Estonians lived in Esthonia, and 518,594 in Livonia. After the February Revolution of 1917 these areas were merged and a national parliament created.

   I really do not know what this article should be called in the English language Misplaced Pages. English does not seem to be able to distinguish between the state and the province. It could be better to rename this to Estonia (province) or Eestimaa (Estland in Estonian), but no proposal has been made.

2. It seems evident that this proposal was made in bad faith.

   The nominator claimed that the article was “not linked from any main namespace article”. In fact the article had about 30 incoming wikilinks; these were all removed by the nominator on May 23, between 22 and 23 UTC.

   Also, most of the content of the article was removed before the AfD nomination; none of it has been merged to any other article. Here is the original, here the defaced version. I will try to restore the article and possibly improve, but I am afraid it will immediately be vandalized.

3. The real reason for the deletion proposal is an on going effort by Estonian nationalist to rewrite Estonian history, both on and off Misplaced Pages. The “provocative” content of this article was the (now removed) section on the socialist revolution in Estonia and the resulting Bolshevist state. Nationalist believe that any information on these slimy commie revolutionaries may give rise to the thought that Estonian communist had something to do with the events of 1940, not just the Soviet tanks and artillery. This is of course a very dangerous form on Soviet occupation denialism and must be expunged from Misplaced Pages!

-- Petri Krohn 04:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Petri, can you come up with a some sources to support your views? The article doesn't have a single valid reference (Estland#External links had two links that mention Estland - one was this very same article in reference.com and another was blog link. Britannica article handles just Estonia, using old name. Best link that I could find is Die Estländische Ritterschaft (partial English: The Estonian Noble Corporation) - and even that mentions it at best passingly. DLX 05:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I am not trying to "put you down", I am just trying to find actually some sources that support this. Reval Governorate (see Baltic governorates) seems to be more or less the only time that Northern Estonia was officially called Estland. However - article, if it stays - should firstly mention that Estland is name used for Estonia - and then Estland as Baltic governorate/indistinct historic area. In that case, I would support keeping the article, providing it is properly sourced. DLX 05:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Move and Current name to redirect of Estonia, I am completely fine with having article about that how Northern-Estonia was separate administrative subdivision from Southern-Estonia. I suggest making move to something like Estland administrative subdivision 1227-1917 (i am sure that there are also better name ideas, just you get the idea). Then we could have Estland ((disambiguation), Estland itsselfly should be redirect to Estonia because it is name of Estonia in many languages. Btw, there was no state of Estland as one previous version of article claims. Maapäev declared itsself only highest local authority. At that time nobody considered it to be a declaration of independence of new country. Declarartion of independce came at 24 February 1918 by Päästekomitee which was formed by Maapäev for that purpose at 19th february.--Staberinde 08:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment to Petri Kohn: the Dutch article simply means "Estonia (territory)" and has a short overview over the different countries historiclly controlling Estonia. The Russian is the same, just even shorter. We still have no documentation for the use of the name "Est(h)land" in English, and the article's first three lines of text are completely unsourced. In what is now Denmark, a madman declared Als to be a communist republic, but it wasn't recognized by anybody and German police arrested him after three days. If the 1917 administration was universally recognized in Estonia and / or controlled a large segment of Estonia's territory, it should be easy to find numerous references for it. The article doesn't contain any such list. Given the infobox and the very dominating text about 1917, this article seems like an advertisement for something I can't find references to elsewhere. The 1917 paragraph isn't included in the Russian and Dutch texts which essentially is a List of countries previously controlling Northern Estonia. So we have three problems: unsourced 1917 section, an unusual article name, and next to no content. Valentinian 09:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

1. You are misrepresenting the Dutch article; it is clearly about Eestimaa, not modern Estonia. Quote: "Estland (Ests: Eestimaa) of het Hertogdom Estland (Ests: Eestimaa Hertsogiriik) was een historische provincie in Noord-Estland". The countries listed are the ones historically controlling Northern Estonia (Estland). In most cases they did not have control over Southern Estonia in Livonia
2. There is no doubt about the fact that the Bolsheviks controlled Estonia until the German occupation in 1918. The question is, were these Estonian Bolsheviks or Russian Bolsheviks. Estonian nationalist would naturally like to portray them as Russian Bolsheviks. Anyway, Estonia before the German occupation (whatever its name was) should go to a separate article. -- Petri Krohn 23:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

In context of Estonia the country (as contrasted by celestial bodies), 'Estland', if it has meaning in English at all, means primarily Estonia. Secondarily, it may also be considered to be a raw loan from a historical administrative unit, similar to Livland. Unfortunately, as the article was, and as Petri Krohn appears to still think, it attempted to make a clear bijective relation between English 'Estland' and the word 'Eestimaa' used in Estonian language. This is incorrect; the latter word merely means 'the land of Estonia' or 'the country of Estonia'.

Back in the early 20th century -- especially before the Republic --, this word was commonly used to refer to Estonia, and figured into a number of organisations' names, such as the 'Eestimaa Päästmise Komitee' (Template:Lang-en) in the meaning of Estonia.

Some Estonian celebrities have suggested renaming Estonia into Estland in English as a public relations project. Nothing has come of it, and I do not think it was notable.

So, still, I believe that if Estland is to remain, it should be a disambiguation page, pointing first and foremost to Estonia and then to Revel Governorate, along with History of Estonia for more detailed description of the geopolitical situation. Digwuren 10:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Name of "Esthland"

It is extermely difficult to find on-line references to what Estimaa was called in the English language before 1900. Most likely it did not have a name at all, but was referd to by its German (or Russian) name. Also, there do not seem to be much pre-1900 English literature on Estonia, all the references listed in the EB 1911 article are in German, using the name Esthland.

There are some English language sources using the word Esthland

• Early Kings of Norway by Thomas Carlyle
• Creeds of Christendom, with a History and Critical notes. Volume I. The History of Creeds.
• The Great Events by Famous Historians, Volume VI.

The word is also used in some more modern translation, including the Works of Lenin.

It seems to me that the word Esthonia is a result of the late 19th century nationalsit movement and most likely was not used anywhere before 1880. Both EB 1911 and the Catholic Encyclopedia (1906) however use it to refer to Eestimaa. We could in fact place the burden of proof the other way around: can anyone provide a reference or show a use of the word Esthonia in the English language before 1880? -- Petri Krohn 00:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. It seems, that the use of the word Eesti for Eestimaa or Estonia in the Estonian language is a fairly new innovation. Can anyone show a use of the word "Eesti" before 1870?. I posted a similar challenge on the Finnish Misplaced Pages regarding the word Suomi. (See fi:Suomi#Suomi -sanan historia) I later found out, that it was used already in 1841 as the name of the Swedish language journal of the Finnish Literature Society. -- Petri Krohn 00:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. What is clear, is that Esthland or Estland never refered to the whole of Estonia. It would thus be wrong to redirect Estland to Estonia. -- Petri Krohn 00:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

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