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Revision as of 19:06, 26 May 2007 editNathanLee (talk | contribs)1,884 edits →I feel that people here are missing the point by a long way: - un do of SlimVirgin's change of Localzuk's comment to make it mine← Previous edit Revision as of 21:50, 26 May 2007 edit undoSlimVirgin (talk | contribs)172,064 edits →I feel that people here are missing the point by a long wayNext edit →
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:More definitions from online dictionary/encyclopaedias that support the non equivalent position: , , , ,. If you still can't see that the terms are not equivalent, then I can keep digging for more definitions if you'd like, since it is "obscene" to you. ] 18:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC) :More definitions from online dictionary/encyclopaedias that support the non equivalent position: , , , ,. If you still can't see that the terms are not equivalent, then I can keep digging for more definitions if you'd like, since it is "obscene" to you. ] 18:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

::You've been given sources that use the terms in the same way, but you deny they're doing it, saying for example that when CNN writes of the need for an end to factory farming and later in the same paragraph (writing from memory) of the need to (forget the word, but another way of saying stop) "intensive farming," you deny they're referring to the same things.

::Life's too short for silliness and wikilawyering, and you can't take this talk page hostage again. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 21:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


==Straw poll on title== ==Straw poll on title==

Revision as of 21:50, 26 May 2007

Page title

I suggest that people write here what they think the title(s) should be, and why, preferably using sources to back up the argument. Please write no more than one short paragraph each, preferably no more than 150 words. No threaded discussion; just let each person have their say, because we may agree more than we realize.

SlimVirgin

My preference is for us to have one article, which should include crops and animals. I don't mind what the title is: factory farming, intensive farming, industrial agriculture, or intensive agriculture, because mainstream sources use these terms interchangeably (e.g. the BBC using the terms "factory farms," "factory farming," "intensive agriculture," and "intensive farming" in one article to refer to the same phenomenon). If others want more than one article, I'm willing to see two articles: one about crops, one about animals. I'd prefer the animal one to be called "factory farming" because it’s commonly used (e.g. Washington Post, CNN, BBC, CBC. As a compromise, I'd be willing to see Intensive farming (animals) and Intensive farming (crops). I'd be unwilling to see three articles (Factory farming, Intensive farming, and Industrial agriculture), unless someone can show me mainstream reliable sources who use the terms differently and who make clear what the difference is; so far, no one has done that. Misplaced Pages must not create distinctions that do not exist for reliable sources. SlimVirgin 20:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Examining your links: none of them do what you've said they do: which is to use the terms equivalently:
  • the washington post article only mentions factory farming as something that activists consider gestation crates to be an inhumane practice.
  • the bbc article and other bbc article don't do what you claim they do either (none of them use the terms equivalently, nor are all of the terms in the articles either).
  • nor does CNN
  • nor does cbc article does actually have two terms in it, but unless having a report on intensive farming and a mention of factory farming in the article means they're equivalent (when factory farming is a type of intensive farming technique).
So there's nothing in any of those to support your request for a compromise to make them all the same. Read those articles with the mind that factory farming is a type of intensive farming and it makes perfect sense. None of them use them interchangably as you claim. NathanLee 11:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Crum375

I agree with SlimVirgin above. My main concern is that this topic may degenerate into POV forks, and the best way to avoid that is keep it all in one article. If that is impractical, then I could live with one for animals and one for crops, at most. I think a single combined article would still be the most informative and efficient, since many of the issues and controversies are the same or similar. Crum375 21:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Coroebus

Sorry, I'm very busy at the moment so I won't be able to engage in this issue in much detail. In brief, I think that intensive farming is different from industrial agriculture because there are non-industrial agricultural methods that are still intensive, particularly historically (thinking enclosure, that sort of thing). I would be inclined towards a single article called industrial agriculture covering crops and animals but I think that practically speaking this might be unwise as I think there will be overemphasis and conflict over the animal aspect and associated animal rights issues. Therefore I would favour a short article on intensive agriculture with a very short summary section on industrial agriculture that points you to the industrial agriculture page, which in turn has a short summary section on factory farming which is also an article that expands on the confined animal rearing aspect, and spells out in the intro that factory farming is here taken to mean confined animal rearing but that it can also be used to mean industrial agriculture (with, obviously, a wikilink). --Coroebus 21:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Haber

Single article is fine. Ideally everything will be lumped under Intensive agriculture, which is a very neutral term and used by the USDA and BBC. Intensive farming would also be acceptable and is neutral, but sounds less encyclopedic to me (matter of taste, and I see the two terms as nearly equivalent.) Also supported by USDA. Industrial agriculture shows up in a negative context,, and should be avoided. Factory farming is a propaganda term that evokes images of sows in gestation crates. Although activist sites and some media outlets use this term, Misplaced Pages should not buy into their agenda. I could also see possibly two articles: Intensive ag and Industrial ag, but at present I don't see that there is enough material and would rather lump everything under Intensive for the time being. Haber 23:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC) I think it goes without saying that I think that the assertion Intensive ag = Industrial ag = Factory farming is false, but I'll say it again just to avoid any confusion. Haber 12:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

FNMF

Concur with Corobeus's conclusion: "a short article on intensive agriculture with a very short summary section on industrial agriculture that points you to the industrial agriculture page, which in turn has a short summary section on factory farming which is also an article that expands on the confined animal rearing aspect, and spells out in the intro that factory farming is here taken to mean confined animal rearing but that it can also be used to mean industrial agriculture (with, obviously, a wikilink)." FNMF 23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it seems to me that if an editor creates an article (e.g. industrial agriculture), it is illegitimate for another editor to simply change it to a redirect (e.g., to factory farming). Changing the article to a redirect is a de facto form of deletion, and thus an attempt to bypass AfD. If somebody creates an article, then it can be contested by other editors who consider it engages in original research, but this must be done through process. One cannot "in advance" decide that an article is OR and therefore summarily change it to a redirect. I have raised this point before, with no response. Denying the right of other editors to create articles without a legitimate justification seems like an attempt to unfairly control the process. FNMF 06:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


Localzuk

Agree with SV and Crum, preferably one article (not too bothered about the title, as all of them would redirect here) or two (one focusing on crops and one on animals, with the 3 titles pointing to a dab page or similar). I wouldn't want 3 articles as this would lead to POV forks and create distinctions where there are grey areas.-Localzuk 09:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

NathanLee

Just read the exhaustive list or here or perhaps even the section on proposed new lead. SV's version makes claims that terms are the same: they aren't and no reference backs that. The SV version is wrong in the body too because it mentions crops (merged from intensive agriculture) and no article exists to link crop farming with factory farming. It disagrees with the dictionary and encyclopaedic entries referenced in the newer version on that regard. Hence "original" (e.g. SV's ) research. NathanLee 14:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC) (copied here by WAS 4.250 10:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC))

I'd suggest the version of intensive farming and see if it goes with the version that uses a more accurate description of factory farming (pre-revert version ). Between the two they succinctly shows what intensive farming is and delegates greater detail to other pages (e.g. aquaculture, factory farming).. Which, so long as you don't claim that factory farming IS intensive farming, means you have the higher level one for intensive farming concept which covers the broad concepts and links the sub types.., and then delegates more detail to factory farming, aquaculture etc.
If an agreement/compromise is made to not push for the "they are the same" arguments: then we can have a factory farm page, intensive agriculture page can redirect to if there's a desire not to have the two.. Even though one's a process/concept, the other's talking of a field or farming revolution.. NathanLee 12:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

WAS 4.250

Combining these three is like combining articles on jews, zionists and israelis. Related but different. Even if some people don't get that. But until the content grows enough to force hiving off, factory farming could be a section within indusrtial farming which could be a section within intensive farming, but farming is a big subject - we just currently lack content due to lack of interst by contributors. They will eventually be seperate articles. The real issue here is an attempt to control not only the articles but also the discussion about the articles. Including asking a contributor to not contribute. That is wrong. That is controlling. That is contrary to an honest open thoughtful discussion. That is not helpful in finding consensus. I am against gagging any contributor. I am against deciding against the creation of other articles. No to censorship. Let the articles grow organigally rather than trying to tightly control their development. There is a lot more to farming than controversy. WAS 4.250 10:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

jav43

Since we're dealing with three distinct topics, we should have three distinct articles. Jav43 18:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

One article would work if it clearly explained that it merged three distinct topics. Jav43 20:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Analysis and suggestion

  • SV wants one article, but could live with two (one on animals, one on crops). Does not want three. No preference on titles.
  • Crum wants one article, since he feels the issues are the same and because he fears POV forks. No preference on titles.
  • Coroebus would like three articles — intensive agriculture, industrial agriculture, and factory farming — and could live with one combined one called industrial agriculture.
  • Haber would prefer one article called intensive agriculture or intensive farming, in that order of preference.
  • FNMF would prefer three per Coroebus: intensive agriculture, industrial agriculture, and factory farming.
  • Localzuk would prefer one article, but could live with two (one on crops, one on animals), but not three. No preference regarding titles.
  • WAS 4.250 would like to see three articles: intensive farming, industrial farming, and factory farming, but could live with one called intensive farming.
  • Jav would like to see three articles; no preference regarding titles.

In other words:

  • One article called intensive agriculture or intensive farming: Five editors (SV, Crum, Localzuk, Coroebus, Haber) would either prefer, or could live with, one article, and the only preference expressed for its title (by Haber) is "intensive agriculture" or "intensive farming," in that order. I think WAS 4.250 would also be able to live with one article called intensive farming.
  • Three articles called intensive agriculture, industrial agriculture, and factory farming. Two editors have asked for three articles and expressed no second preference.

Could the editors who would like to see three articles say what they would be prepared to accept as a second best choice? The aim is to find out whether there's enough common ground between us to proceed without further argument.

For example, could those editors accept one article called "intensive agriculture"? This would explore the history of intensive farming/agriculture (e.g. along these lines ); it would move on to the industralization of agriculture as society in general became industralized; and it would deal in separate sections with the issues raised by the industrialized production of crops, on the one hand, and animals on the other.

If the article became too large at any point, then we could think about creating separate articles for some of the sections, per summary style (so long as this doesn't appear to be POV forking), but we've not reached that stage yet. On the contrary, quite a bit of the content of the three articles was repetitive when I last checked. SlimVirgin 18:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Jav has agreed to one article, so long as we make it clear that we're dealing with a number of distinct areas. (We could perhaps write a section on the different terms and their usage). Thank you, Jav. Does anyone remaining have a strong objection to one article called "Intensive agriculture"? SlimVirgin 20:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I dispute the analysis: by my reading, five editors prefer three articles (Corobeus, FNMF, Nathan, WAS, Jav). There is certainly no clear majority that prefers one article. What this reflects is the current deadlock. And thus the real point is not whether these five editors can "live with" one article; the question is whether having one article will achieve a good outcome. In my opinion, one of the main reasons these editors prefer three articles is because they see it as a way of breaking this deadlock, whereas having one article is essentially maintaining the status quo: that is, an apparently interminable waste of energy arguing on the talk page with no improvement to the actual article. Changing the title to "intensive farming" is not likely to change this situation. Insisting on preventing three articles is an attempt to unfairly control the situation, and, in my opinion, it is an illegitimate way of doing so. As I have said, I don't believe editors should be able to de facto delete articles by changing them to redirects. FNMF 21:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
FN, I wrote "Five editors (SV, Crum, Localzuk, Coroebus, Haber) would either prefer, or could live with, one article ..." And it's now six, because Jav says he could accept one article too. The proposal is to call it "intensive agriculture."
We can't proceed with deadlock, so there has to be compromise. That is why I looked at people's first preference, but also what they said their second preference was.
I don't see how not having three articles is an exercise in illegitimate control. It's an attempt to avoid repetition and POV forking. There may come a point where the different sections on this article are so large that forking becomes necessary, but that point has not been reached. SlimVirgin 22:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
FN, could you say what your particular concerns are about the need for three articles, because I've not followed it, and I'm sorry if I'm being dense. For example, is it that you want a separate article on the history of intensive agriculture, because if so, perhaps we could have one called "History of intensive agriculture," where you deal only with pre-industralization.
The POV fork problem arises only if editors try to turn an article on "intensive agriculture" into something that deals with modern methods, but pretends those methods are not examples of what mainstream sources call "industrial agriculture" or "factory farming." If your history article would definitely only deal with pre-industrial methods, that problem would not arise.
What we have to avoid is erecting any framework that, in and of itself, implies either than intensive agriculture is a good, non-controversial thing, or is a bad, controversial thing. Our content will make both claims per NPOV, but our framework should not. That is why one article would be good, with a neutral title such as "intensive agriculture." SlimVirgin 22:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
My particular concern is that this is getting nowhere. Once the issue of what to call the article is "resolved," we will be right back where we are right now, that is, at a deadlock about content, which is what lies behind the "article title" issue. I don't believe that three articles means the articles will represent particular points of view, and assuming that in advance is wrong. One article is just as likely to be POV as three articles, but it is just as possible for all three to be neutral and balanced. Insisting that three articles will result in non-neutral articles is inventing a problem in order to control the outcome. Compromise would be if editors said, "OK, let's have more than one article and see where it takes us." The unwillingness of some editors to try this approach is the most obvious thing about the situation at present. FNMF 05:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, can you say once more what you see as the difference between industrial agriculture and factory farming? SlimVirgin 05:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
It depends on whether factory farming is limited in definition to the confinement of animal stock and associated phenomena. If so, the difference is clear enough. But if factory farming is described more broadly than just stock confinement, then I refer you to my first ever comment on this talk page, here. And, again, my argument is not that there should be three articles, but that this is the most likely means of breaking the deadlock, that is, the most likely means of actually beginning to improve the article(s). If another solution works, that's fine; I just haven't seen much evidence of anything else working. FNMF 11:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
There's still been no reference to why the terms are the same. Britannica's definition clearly states that factory farming only refers to CONFINED ANIMAL raising , and that intensive farming is separate (see "extensive farming" and "semi-intensive" as to why). We've still nothing provided that includes crops or aquaculture. SV/crum/localzuk: can you provide any resource that shows "factory farming" as inclusive of these? That's the big reason for why Industrial Agriculture is needed as a broad term. NathanLee 12:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Yep. I have 2 so far, with more if you want them. The first is a farm, and the second is a site for 'hobby farmers' .-Localzuk 11:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

If it matters "industrial agriculture" about 453,000 google hits, "factory farming" about 472,000. Both top links are from critical websites, and wikipedia pages feature promenently in the first few hits for "factory farming".

If you ask me, its "Factory farming" as title "industrial agriculture" as redirect, main page covers a short intro into two sub-pages (crops) and (animal). I have been watching the page since forever but not edited...--Cerejota 08:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Analysis of Analysis

If you now seem happy (going off your proposed version) that factory farming is just one type or subset of intensive farming: then is there any problem with having separate articles if it means:

  • smaller articles size
  • more directed (e.g. see how the version of intensive farming is focussed on the concept of what is intensive farming versus extensive farming and directs people to factory farming (see the pre revert version for consistency with that notion) on specific detail on factory farming specifics, just like aquaculture details out details on aquaculture..
  • an avoidance of a POV merge (as per the argument about jew/zionist/israeli not being in the one article for the obvious reason that they are distinct).
  • when/if factory farming disappears from the current state of industrial agriculture (and practised intensive farming techniques): those topics will still make sense. In one big article they're forced to be all together..
  • if we merge one, we'd also have to merge aquaculture: which wouldn't seem to be a good idea..
  • redirecting factory farming to intensive farming creates the assumption that it IS the same thing, when it's clearly a subset. We can put in a bit that talks of the notion of "treating the farm like a factory" to mean Industrial agriculture, but that the main use of the word is to refer to animals/confiend in large operations etc.

Does that sound workable? NathanLee 13:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I would go along with however you want to arrange the articles, but I disagree with the last point. A redirect from a subtopic to a larger topic could just mean that we don't have enough information for a decent subarticle.
I'd also like to reiterate that "Factory Farming" is not an NPOV term, being found almost exclusively on activist websites and in negative articles written by media types. No one builds factory farms or works in factory farms, the government does not keep statistics on factory farms, it's just a made-up term which sounds worse than "farm". Misplaced Pages should not propagate this terminology, which was invented by critics in order to demonize a legal activity. It reminds me of a Simpsons' quote, "Just miles from your doorstep, hundreds of men are given weapons and trained to kill. The government calls it the Army, but a more alarmist name would be... The Killbot Factory." -- Kent Brockman Haber 21:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Archive

I know we shouldn't normally archive stuff which as current but this page is now so long that it is near impossible for someone new to come in and read over it. I suggest we archive as much as possible and reference bits of it in any new postings. It would help things immensly in my opinion.-Localzuk 18:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. SlimVirgin 19:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I've archived everything but this last section, as we seem to be making progress finally. The previous comments amounted to nearly 52,000 words. SlimVirgin 19:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Eight minutes later you do it? I think Localzuk wanted some comment first or otherwise he would have just done it himself. Haber 19:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
It was getting hard to load the page, Haber. I looked through it, and I couldn't find anything that would help us to move forward. It was 52,000 words of personal opinion, almost half of it written by one person. There were a few sources scattered throughout (not many), which any of us can retrieve from the archive. I think we should concentrate on forward progress only from now on. SlimVirgin
No matter what the reasons, it was appropriate for Localzuk to seek some consensus before making such a radical change to this highly contentious talk page. This was not an emergency and could have waited a day or so. I'm not dwelling in the past, just trying to point out that your methods as of today are not working to build any kind of trust. Haber 20:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
My strategy is to keep us moving forward, not looking back, and to encourage everyone to compromise, because the arguments of the last few days have been very damaging, very toxic. I hope you'll help me with it and assume good faith. SlimVirgin 20:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks once again for your unfounded attack and attempt to belittle my and other's contributions. It wasn't personal opinion for a start, if you'd read it: you'd see that. NathanLee 11:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have to say that this is pathetic. Was and Nathan - you are now commenting on something completely unimportant and pointless. Please stop doing this as it is not helping move the page forward. If you take offence to something an editor did, discuss it on their talk page.-Localzuk 12:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course everything seems petty to perpetrators. Your response shows that you and SV are so set in your ways and so buried in the system that I cannot hope to change your long-term behavior. All I can do is point it out as it happens, and hope that there are enough reasonable people around who likewise can't stand bullying, dismissiveness, and underhanded tactics. Haber 12:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Slim Virgin's proposal

Talk:Factory farming/Slim Virgin's proposal Do I have that right? WAS 4.250 06:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If we can all edit Talk:Factory farming/Slim Virgin's proposal without getting into a revert war, then we have a compromise. If not, then not. Let's find out. WAS 4.250 07:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks way better than I thought it would. Take a look and see what you think. WAS 4.250 07:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering if it would make more sense to get an agreement going, then proceed with editing the real thing. All we need to decide is number of articles and title, and content of lead. The rest will probably take care of itself. SlimVirgin 02:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments from Nathan

  • take a look at the current intensive farming as I did a reasonable amount of refactoring to get it where it is now (still needs a bit of referencing etc).. It's a smaller, more manageable article. SV's one that takes that version and combines it with all the other factory farming stuff is massive by any wikipedia article standards..
  • 2 or 3 more manageable ones.. Someone's going to come to the page and go "I think there's too much information here: we need to split it" and there we go again. It's pretty obvious that the material can be split without any big issues I think (given we've got in this new version a tree like structure: why can't it have the "main article" type concept (as it already has if you look at intensive farming)).
  • The massive amount of information (unreferenced) for chickens etc: really seems a bit much too.
  • It's closer to the definition that's supportable, so that's a definite improvement to the one we've got sitting up on factory farming.
  • I'd suggest if you're happy with a version that no longer makes the claims of equal usage of terms: then lumping it together in one article is no different from separating it out.
  • There's extensive farming to consider: it's the "opposite" if you like. NathanLee 12:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Currently it seems the other articles are going fine as standalone

Also: it seems like industrial agriculture and intensive farming seem to be able to exist on their own as meaningful aricles. If you put the version of factory farming back to the non SV one: it too exists and is consistent. The only thing that's the issue is an OR/ POV (as in unbacked up by any evidence) desire to have them being the one massive article. NathanLee 10:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Evidence of equivalent terms

As this question has gone unanswered since the start of this: SV/Crum/localzuk: As your attempt at compromise is to force people into "moving forward" and to "live with" just one article you still have not provided any source that shows the terms to be equivalent: From my comments on SV's arguments about supported sources:

:Examining your links: none of them do what you've said they do: which is to use the terms equivalently:

  • the washington post article only mentions factory farming as something that activists consider gestation crates to be an inhumane practice.
  • the bbc article and other bbc article don't do what you claim they do either (none of them use the terms equivalently, nor are all of the terms in the articles either).
  • nor does CNN
  • nor does cbc article does actually have two terms in it, but unless having a report on intensive farming and a mention of factory farming in the article means they're equivalent (when factory farming is a type of intensive farming technique).
So there's nothing in any of those to support your request for a compromise to make them all the same. Read those articles with the mind that factory farming is a type of intensive farming and it makes perfect sense. None of them use them interchangably as you claim. NathanLee 11:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, here is another site which under its dictionary definition of agriculture it has 'large scale farming' listed with 'syn: agribusiness, factory farming'. This is a feed from .

-Localzuk 11:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Does that mean that all large scale farms are factory farms? No, that wouldn't make any sense: What about a large scale extensive farm? Or a large scale organic, freerange farm? Of course not. Yes, factory farms are large scale, that again doesn't mean that ALL large scale farms are factory farms. Nor does this over simplified definition show that "intensive farming" or "industrial agriculture" are equivalent terms.. NathanLee 17:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and if you look at what wordnet is: it's not exactly something to be used as a definitive guide: See the FAQ for what it is.. wordnet FAQ. To quote: "groups of words that are roughly synonymous in a given context". It's a computer program making assumptions about synonyms that the definitions that were written by the researchers. I'll stake my money on britannica over this any day of the week. It's akin to quoting google's word suggestions as a dictionary definition. NathanLee 17:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, this site uses the 2 interchangably also .-Localzuk 17:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
That's an activist site.. NathanLee 18:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
And another (ok, they stick chicken in the middle of intesive farming in that one).-Localzuk 17:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they do put chicken in there, so how is that a valid support to your argument other than wasting space on this discussion page? NathanLee 18:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


And previously at "an exhaustive look":

SV and crum375 have asserted that factory farm/intensive farming, industrial agriculture are synonymous and completely interchangeable.. So looking through all the references in the article. The terms are sometimes used in the same article (even in the same sentence in one article) we haven't yet had anything that shows the terms are anything other than a type of the other..

  • The CNN article doesn't use them interchangably , it calls for a move away from intensive and a stop to factory farming. It would have said stop to both if they were the same thing. You can stop factory farms and still be moving away from intensive farming is about all you can glean from that..
  • britannica and the sci-tech dictionary says it applies to animal farming as per cramped conditions ,
  • this one supports the notion that the term means livestock ,
  • this one refers to concentrated animal feeding operations no mention of "factory farm" anywhere,
  • this one does not mention the term factory farm,
  • webster's dictionary backs up the indoors/livestock definition ,
  • this article talks specifically about cows..

On and on through the list.. Even if we go to activist sites on factory farming: I haven't come across any that assert that the terms are interchangable. Sure: factory farming IS industrial agriculture and it IS using intensive farming techniques (or is a type of intensive farming). But that just means it "is a type of", or "is a subset of". English use of the word "is" isn't the same as mathematical =. a = b means b=a. But in English a is b doesn't also mean that b is a.

Nothing to back up the claims in the referred links or anything I can find (other than mirrors of wikipedia's mistaken statements.. which is why it is important we do NOT have this definition sitting up there and infecting the common vernacular of agricultural terms), thus: it is original research and has no place on wikipedia. Might I add:

  • Even the PETA link on factory farming (completely un-admissable I would say given PETA are a pro-vegan, anti every type of farming site, and not exactly known for their fact based statements e.g. "meat causes impotence", "your daddy murders chickens") mentions only animals .

So, does this settle the arguments that SV and Crum375 have about wanting the term "Factory farm" to be synonymous with the other terms? No mention of crops, and 3 different dictionary/encyclopaedic entries that suggest there's a link to cramped livestock.. Yet Industrial agriculture definitely includes monoculture crop planting, and intensive farming definitely definitely refers to using fertiliser and irrigation and mechanised ploughing etc..

So unless there's any new evidence: I suggest we move past this and get on with splitting up the articles and back to supportable definitions/synonyms. This has all been a pretty big drain of time, good will and patience that has damaged the accuracy of the information on here, not improved it (although I guess at least this has been exhaustively debated now.. and has firmed up sources/supporting arguments etc). Any thoughts on this? I'm not wanting to be dictatorial on this: just presenting the evidence.. NathanLee 12:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Which was agreed by Jav43 and WAS by the way and no opposing view or comments.

There's been no attempt to answer this anywhere that I can see: which really is the whole rationale for squashing this article into one big article. Can we finally get an answer, or else I suggest to "move forward" you drop the argument that these terms all belong in one article (which appears to be set to be a massive article). NathanLee 09:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point? We have half the editors thinking that the terms are equivalent and half that don't. All you are doing is going back, again and again, to the same old 'we're right, you're wrong' argument. This is getting us no-where and the entire exercise above is intended to try and move us forward and out of the deadlock that we are in and to compromise. All you have done is once again gone back and repeated your same argument again, filling the page up again. We have all read through this before and simply disagree with your analysis - posting it again and again isn't going to change our minds.-Localzuk 11:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Localzuk: you can "think" what you like: What we need are some references. I and others have shown that there's nothing that says they are the same and have a definition that fits britannica and dictionary definitions, yours only fits if you have some strange idea of two things mentioned in a news article that they're the same. The rules of the English language also seem to agree. No one from your side has shown any attempt to refute those (and the above) time and time again. No rational being would keep insisting they have a case without any evidence, yet you still do. If inability to provide evidence from your side is "deadlock" then allowing you to force your unreferenced, OR/POV is not a fair compromise. What compromise have you made? That you'll only accept having one article? That is not a "compromise" and moves nothing in any direction. NathanLee 17:20, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Please read my section below. Also, as I have said - we don't think that your analysis is correct of the sources that show the 2 terms are equivalent, whereas you do believe that. We both have shown various things and both sides don't agree. The compromise is getting past that and doing something in the middle. Stop going on about rules of the English language and your own POV because we already know what you think. We want to move on and actually settle this problem, whereas you only seem to be willing to accept our complete and total withdrawal...-Localzuk 17:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
So if I go and merge the jew/zionist/israeli articles because I can give the same level of "proof" of equivalency of terms: you'll be fine with that? I can show them used to mean the same thing (in your fashion). The rules of the English language are rather important: as they're the thing you're relying on to concoct a definition: and you're wrong. A is a type of B, does not mean B is a type of A. Or X and Y does not mean X is Y or Y is X. But that's your argument. How about a compromise to what's safer and makes no OR: something directly backed by dictionary and encyclopaedic entries? Is that a fair compromise? That's all I'm asking for.. NathanLee 17:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I feel that people here are missing the point by a long way

Right, I will outline my position: We have evidence that shows the 2 terms (intensive farming and factory farming) are equivalent but some editors disagree that it does so therefore I am willing to compromise and have an article which outlines all 3 in some way (regardless of how obscene it seems to me). On the other hand we have a group of editos who simply refuse to accept our evidence and continually say that we aren't getting anywhere as we are trying to 'trick' them or what have you. How, in your opinions then are we to move forward with this? We have 2 stances and we need a middle point. We have a majority of the editors who are willing to have a single article as I just described but this isn't good enough for some. Please explain how you think we should break this deadlock then as you (I'm looking at you Nathan) are continually repeating yourself and failing to provide a single new idea to this debate.-Localzuk 17:31, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

We have a majority of editors who want more than one article because they do not share your view of equivalency.
As I've said: having two terms used in a sentence or an article does not automagically mean they are the same thing. Your "evidence" is extremely strange. If you expect me to suspend my knowledge of English to cater for your obscure "definition" then I really can't do it. That's why I've asked for you or SV or anyone to explain it via proper reference because it doesn't make sense nor do the articles you say do it even support it. The use of the word "and" seems to be a sticking point. I can say "I believe you are wrong localzuk and I like correct wikipedia entries" does not mean that "localzuk" and "correct wikipedia entry" are the same thing. Yet you argued that a sentence with factory farming AND intensive agriculture meant that they were the same. Additional info was provided about the lack of any reference to crops, or that the definitions match if you take one to be a subset of the other. In SV's proposed version: they say exactly that: yet you still want just one article that says that anyhow? I've got britannica's entry on factory farm and britannica's definition of intensive farming that back up my claim. You have nothing more than a questionable technique of interpreting a few news articles. Surely you can see your position is rather shakey if you have such strong arguments against it and no reliable direct definition to back yours up? NathanLee 17:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Nathan, the long and frequent posts from you are starting up again. They aren't helping. SlimVirgin 18:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
And the dictatorial/dismissive style is continuing from you SV, please assume good faith that someone contributing with reasoned arguments deserves to be listened to. Why these are getting lumped together I don't know. NathanLee 18:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


More definitions from online dictionary/encyclopaedias that support the non equivalent position: World encyclopedia 1980 - factory farming, intensive (of agriculture) Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English 2006, extensive (of agriculture), encarta definition factory farm,encarta definition of intensive (agriculture). If you still can't see that the terms are not equivalent, then I can keep digging for more definitions if you'd like, since it is "obscene" to you. NathanLee 18:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
You've been given sources that use the terms in the same way, but you deny they're doing it, saying for example that when CNN writes of the need for an end to factory farming and later in the same paragraph (writing from memory) of the need to (forget the word, but another way of saying stop) "intensive farming," you deny they're referring to the same things.
Life's too short for silliness and wikilawyering, and you can't take this talk page hostage again. SlimVirgin 21:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll on title

As I see it, we have a consensus (as a first or second choice) for having one article called "Intensive agriculture." My proposal is that we proceed with this, with separate sections on the history of intensive farming; perhaps another section on the industrialization of it in general; and then we split into sections about animals on the one hand, and crops on the other. We could also include a section that discusses the different terms, who uses them, and so on.

If and when that article gets too long, we can discuss again the need to split into more than one article.

We will also carefully discuss the lead in advance of editing so that we have a consensus on images and text, and no revert wars. We can discuss the lead after deciding on the title.

Could we have a straw poll here to see who is prepared to try this? SlimVirgin 21:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Support
  1. SlimVirgin 21:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  2. Let's move forward. Crum375 00:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  3. As per Crum375--Cerejota 05:03, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  4. We need to move on this, rather than repeating the same old arguments and getting nowhere. However, if this is not acceptable to people, how about 'Agribusiness' as the title? The article ties in with th subject matter being discussed here and would work well.-Localzuk 11:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. WAS 4.250 21:34, 25 May 2007 (UTC) This is premature. Let us all edit the subpage in question and if we can do that without reverting each other then it is a possible solution to this revert war.
  2. NathanLee 09:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC) Forcing people to accept your POV on an article being squashed into one article is not "consensus" SlimVirgin. You've still never provided anything to back up why they're equivalent terms (please see my question that's gone unanswered since this began). Your selective interpretation which is the whole basis is incorrect and Original research. Moving forward does not mean "ignore the fact you've not supported your argument STILL".
Neutral
Votes are Evil
  1. I think that there is a high probability that the results of this straw poll will be misused to somehow assert that the terms are equivalent and certain editors need to be marginalized. It's Memorial Day Weekend (at least in the US). I recommend that SV and Localzuk take a 72 hour break. If so I can do likewise. Haber 14:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  2. agreed. If it's the same old argument: it's because it still has the same old complete lack of evidence as to why just one article is needed. More articles can easily work if SV, localzuk and crum375 stop reverting any attempt to improve the article. Pretending that they've made some compromise and want to move forward yet have made no compromise nor provided any new evidence. NathanLee 17:12, 26 May 2007 (UTC)