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Concerns

Hiya, I've been busy with other projects (like getting the Knights Templar article to Featured status), but decided I'd pop back in here to Juice Plus to see how things are going. I'm glad to see that there's still an effort to keep the article as referenced as possible. However, I'm sorry to see that edit wars are still continuing, that ad hominem attacks are continuing (from both sides) and that some editors (from both sides) seem to be fixated on this article, to the exclusion of any other work on Misplaced Pages. Really, with the amount of energy that you folks have put into this one page, you could have created a couple dozen other encyclopedia articles by now! I also have to admit concerns that we're again seeing overly-detailed information creeping its way back into the article text. For example, the list of ingredients that is showing up in the Product Description section. Wasn't that the reason that we set up an infobox, was to get rid of the lists in the text? My recommendation is that this information be removed or merged into the infobox, and that we concentrate on making the article as readable as possible for general readers. --Elonka 17:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka -- I fully agree about the time spent on this and the need (or lack thereof) for a peer review. In my time following this article (more than a year) I am starting to see a trend developing where a JP user or distributor or simply a fan finds the page and starts lodging lots of complaints since the article does not match to either JP marketing materials or match their personal experiences with the product. In any case Rhode Island Red spends an inordinate amount of time defending the page, which ultimately leads to a peer review or senior reviewer who changes the content, but ultimately doesn't satisfy folks who want the article to present JP in a favorable light. I can't imagine how frustrating this must be for RIR. If she stops responding, all of this work will be lost and the page will mirror JP marketing materials. If she keeps responding, her research and other potential Misplaced Pages entries suffer. The thing that is the most concerning about this whole process is that the long arguments on both sides are moot. The real issue is the general tenor of the article -- and as long as Misplaced Pages gives a voice to those who will reference their work, the article will always be controversial to JP users/distributors/fans, because there happen to be a large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing. For example, as a Christian I can't stand some of the articles regarding subjects important to my faith, but I realize I can't make wikipedia an advertisement for my faith and that there are many people out there who don't agree with me. I can't spend the time fighting edits in those articles for they ultimately won't change. I don't know the resolution, but there clearly aren't enough folks like RIR out there with subject matter knowledge and a passion (probably stirred by edit wars here more than anything else) to present the truth as they see it. I guess the only solution is for some of the rest of the neutral users to stand up and let RIR take a break -- but frankly and sadly most of us don't care if a product is misleading as long as it is not effecting us. I know I don't care enough to edit frequently on this page. For all of our sake could both sides please take a break and work on other matters -- this article has been peer reviewed, argued over way too much. Tbbooher 01:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Tbbooher, I totally respect your wish for everyone to step back for a minute. I feel the same way. Luckily, I'm too busy to get caught up in the daily edit battles. I would like for you to consider what it's like for someone who doesn't agree with RIR though. I don't think RIR is the lone defender of the neutrality of the article as you seem to characterize her. Do you see the kind of references she brings to the table? We get competitor websites and biased article getting more attention than published studies. There aren't a "large number of folks questioning JP's business model, efficacy and marketing" but there are a few and RIR has made sure almost everyone of them is well represented. Please don't assume the views opposite to RIR as being imcompatable with a good article. Personally, I would really just like to see a neutral article.

Elonka, I couldn't agree with you more about the preponderance of overdetailed information. I would like to see an infobox too.Citizen Don 05:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough Citizen Don, I just feel the same way Elonka does regarding the time spent on the article and have seen some POV opinions fought by RIR since I have been watching this page (most were in the past with some JP spokespersons showing up). I must admit, however, that I have not been able to read the recent long edit discussions and haven't read any of the references so I don't know if they are biased or not. Moreover, my research (in math) is not anything close to nutrition. Tbbooher 11:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. However, can I please ask that we all work harder to get away from talking about the editors, and stick to discussing the actual article itself? --Elonka 06:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Tbbooher: You were very accurate in your assessment of the situation and I appreciate the comments. Rhode Island Red 23:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka: I agree that many of the comments have been very long. Might I suggest, in keeping with your comment, that you avoid using vague heading titles such as "Concerns". It opens the door to long rambling replies. Instead, please use thread titles that refer to specific content issues, as outlined by WP:TPG, which states "It should be clear from the heading which aspect of the article you wish to discuss. Do not write "This article is wrong" but address the specific issue you want to discuss". Thanks. Rhode Island Red 23:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

My reply to Elonka's comment about the information under the Product Description heading is as follows. In your previous edit, you created a heading called Product Description; however, you did not carry forward or add any details that would qualify as a description of the product; just the names of the manufacturers and the cost of the product. The section needed to be populated with some information, which I subsequently added. Although you created an infobox that includes a list of ingredients, it only covered one of the products (Garden Blend); however, that product is not meant to be taken alone but rather in combination with Orchard Blend. The most critical question for article readers is the nutritional content provided when the two products are taken as directed. The information that I subsequently added (the RDI for the 6 labeled nutrients provided when Orchard and Garden Blend taken together as directed) is not an ingredient list and it is not duplicative of the information in the infobox. Relevant information has also been provided to indicate that these nutrients in Juice Plus are added post-processing and that they are obtained form outside suppliers. While Juice Plus gummies had been included in the Research section, we had no information in the article on what the gummies contain. In conclusion, the few new lines of information that have been added: (a) do not make the article "less readable" to "general readers" as suggested by Elonka (b) add valuable information that would be of obvious value to readers with an interest in the subject, and (c) the section needed to be populated with some information, which it now contains. If anyone wants to comment on this further, please start a new heading using an appropriate title as per WP:TPG. Rhode Island Red 00:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Citizen Don: You were very accurate in your assessment of the situation. I'm sure many editors (past and present) appreciate the comments. TraceyR 18:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, TraceyR. You can only keep telling the truth until someone listens!Citizen Don 02:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Adverse effects

I recommend deletion of this section. Currently it says: (1) that there's no firm data on adverse effects; (2) that in one study some subjects developed a rash; (3) that in one study some subjects developed symptoms that resolved spontaneously and were deemed unrelated to Juice Plus; and (4) that a handful of possible effects are listed in the distributor manual. The only source that I really like in the whole section is the FDA spreadsheet, and even that one is iffy, since it's a voluntary reporting system, and clearly a primary source with no secondary analysis. As such, I think the entire section should go, unless we can come up with a secondary source that provides proper analysis of the data. What do other editors think? --Elonka 18:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Attribution/FAQ.

Some sources are generally unacceptable for use as references in Misplaced Pages: ... An obsolete source is one that is out-of-date, or has been officially withdrawn or deprecated by its author(s) or publisher. Editors of articles on fast-moving subjects such as law, science, or current events should ensure they use the latest sources.

The FDA spreadsheet/SNAEMS site was officially withdrawn by the publishing authority in 2002 - this is no doubt why the article links to a web archive site rather than to the original source. It was always very suspect, in that no attempt was made to ascertain causality - a poor and a primary source - off with its head! TraceyR 17:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Think you should get more input from NPOV editors before suggesting deletion of any of this content. 85.71.60.166 14:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think that? If the information is from an officially withdrawn source (and as such contrary to wiki guidelines) any editor is entitled to delete it without seeking consensus - it is just as a courtesy to other editors that I mentioned it here.TraceyR 17:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that we do not have a consensus to back the assertion that the FDA adverse events report violates any WP policy. The issue can be brought to a wider audience of editors for input, but until then it should not be deleted. As I see it, the fact the SNAEMS adverse event monitoring system no longer exists does not negate the use of information that they had previously collected. The relevant fact is that SNAEMS did receive such adverse event reports about Juice Plus and they did publish it on their system. The adverse events reported by SNAEMS are almost identical with those reported by other sources, including the manufacturer. The SNAEMS citation therefore provides unanimity; it does not suggest anything unusual. Rhode Island Red 20:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Everyone who has commented on whether or not the Adverse effects section should be removed, has said to remove it. The only editor who wants it to stay is Rhode Island Red. The section should be removed from the article, and it is up to Red (and any other editors who wish to comment) to build consensus to re-include it. --Elonka 22:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, your assertion is completely untrue. Please review the prior discussions. The current adverse events section is the result of prior input and debate form several editors. As I said, if you want to get input from a wider group of editors than do so but do not attempt to claim a consensus for removal when none exists. You have not presented a thorough or compelling case for removal of any of the content in the section, let alone the entire section. You previously stated that the article states “that there's no firm data on adverse effects”, which is untrue. The article actually says that “Since Juice Plus is not regulated as a drug, information on adverse effects has not been collected through a systematic monitoring program imposed by any national regulatory agency.” Furthermore, you had raised concerns about the report of hive-like rash as an adverse event and asked for more input from “secondary source that provides proper analysis of the data”. In fact, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, a secondary source, did just that and mentioned the hive-like rash as a side effect. To date only three studies have made any attempt to monitor side effects. Two of these are currently mentioned in the article and their findings have been accurately summarized. Rhode Island Red 22:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The section is controversial and there was no consensus for it to be added. It gives undue weight to the opinion that the product causes adverse effects. The purpose of a Misplaced Pages article is to present a balanced view of a subject, in a neutral fashion, and to cover the significant aspects of a subject. The "Adverse Effects" section that you added, in my opinion and the opinions of other editors, did not have sufficient justification for an entire section. One study which mentioned a hive-like rash which was unrelated to treatment, does not justify an entire section in this article. --Elonka 16:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, your decision to delete the adverse events section was arbitrary and it is disturbing that you have claimed that a consensus decision was made to delete this information when in fact no such consensus was ever reached; quite the contrary.

• Various parts of the AE section have been discussed over the past few months (e.g. ) and never once did anyone suggest deleting the entire section. By deleting it, you are unilaterally circumventing the input of other editors who have labored over the AE information in the article. The consensus of that discussion was that the information in the AE section was valid, adequately referenced, and not given undue weight. You have incorrectly claimed that a consensus was reached to delete the AE section, and this is plainly untrue.
• You have claimed that a consensus needs to be reached in order to justify inclusion of the AE information when, in In fact, the opposite is true. If you feel that this information should be deleted, you need to set out a justifiable case to support your position and build consensus through dialog on the talk page.
• If you have an issue with any of the specific references, then the proper procedure is to tag the reference or to adequately discuss the issue with other editors on the talk page, but unilaterally deleting the content is inappropriate.
• I do not see any valid basis for your claim that adverse events are given undue weight, and other editors have said the same. The AE section is but one of 4 different subsections under the research section and it is the shortest of the 4 sections.
• It is not, as you stated, an “opinion” that this product has adverse effects. This fact is supported by clinical data and has been recognized by the authors of two of the studies on the product, by Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (a secondary source), and by the manufacturer.
• To support of your argument for deletion, you misstated the facts presented in one of the research reports mentioned in the article. You said that the hive-like rash reported in the Inserra study was deemed to be unrelated to treatment. This is completely untrue (nowhere did they mention that the rash was unrelated to treatment) and it would be helpful if you would confirm this for yourself and then kindly acknowledge the error. It does not help the discussion process when data is misrepresented to support a position. I'll assume that the mistake was made in good faith.
• Requests from 2 editors to seek outside input prior to deleting any of the AE information were ignored.

You have variously claimed the following reasons for removal of the AE section: (1) that concensus was reached to delete (2) that prior approval is required as a prerequisite for inclusion of the AE information (3) that AEs were given undue weight in the article (4) that the AEs associated with Juice Plus are mere opinions (5) that the hive-like rash reported in one of the studies was deeemed to be unrelated to treatment. Plainly, these assertions are incorrect.

Please do not bypass the discussion process and do not arbitrarily delete this section again, as such actions could be considered vandalism (i.e. blanking – cf. WP:VAN). Please work within the system to address any issues that you may have with the content of the article. And please take the time to carefully review past discussions so as not to launch circular debates and to avoid undermining the past efforts and opinions of other editors who have weighed in on the AE issue. If you have other reasons that you think might support your argument for deletion, then you can always present them on the talk page for further discussion. If instead you feel that an irreconcilable dispute has arisen, then there are appropriate channels for dispute resolution which you can pursue. Rhode Island Red 02:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Rhode, you are the only editor who wants to include that section. Please see Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. --Elonka 21:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, you have been sufficiently warned about the impropriety of deleting this content without justification and without following proper procedure. Your actions qualify as disruptive editing. You have even gone as far as to recently petition me to abstain from editing the article (i.e. driving away productive editors) which is also a violation of WP:DE.

You have repeatedly claimed that a consensus exists to delete the content, and as I have repeatedly pointed out, it is plainly obvious that no such consensus was ever reached. In actuality, you are the only editor who has suggested removing the entire section, you have not provided sufficient justification to defend your assertion, you have repeatedly ignored my comments on the talk page without replying, you have ignored requests from me and one other editor to not delete the content and to solicit additional input from other editors, you have failed to acknowledge the prior discussions on this topic in which it was agreed that the content should stay, and you have ignored the fact that editors other than myself have contributed to the content in this section since it was restored.

You first did a re-write of the article on Feb 17, at which time I found it curious that you had arbitrarily omitted the section on adverse effects. I pointed out the omission immediately on the same day, assuming it was a mere oversight, and you acknowledged it without voicing any objection to its re-inclusion. The adverse effects section was restored on Feb 24 and you failed to comment on it for the next several months until May 12. At that time, you suggested deleting the entire section and then you unilaterally deleted it on May 17, claiming that a consensus supported your decision, when in fact no editor other than you had said that the section should be deleted. It is now becoming increasingly difficult to assume good faith underlying your removal of this content. Please stop deleting it and stop falsely claiming that your deletion is supported by a consensus. If you persist, this issue will be brought to the attention of WP administration for remedial action. Rhode Island Red 01:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Adverse effects - arbitrary section break 1

Elonka, I would like to thank you for your impartial efforts to improve this article. On my talkpage you will find that you were the first person to welcome me to Misplaced Pages (thanks again) which of course was followed by several unjustified warnings from RIR to change my ways or be gone. But anyhow, I agree with you that the Adverse Effects section should be removed until relevent and reliable information on the subject can be gathered.Citizen Don 06:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Citizen Don, the warnings you received were in keping with WP policy because you repeatedly focused your commnents on other editors rather than on the content itself. To resolve this editorial dispute requires that we focus on specific details rather than simply saying me too...I don't like that section. I have laid out the history and the details that I think are relevant; so far nobody has attempted to address them. I would like to see this debate get back on track and to see some of the relevant details discussed. Rhode Island Red 13:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur with the removal of this section. Remember the onus of consensus is on those seeking to include, not those seeking to remove. Matthew 20:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Matthew, first, specific issues about this content have been raised and simply saying that you agree with deletion does not address those issues nor does it help us in reaching a consensus. Comments should be framed in terms of specific content in the article, how that content jibes with WP policy, and how it can be improved. Second, once again you are reminded that the AE section in question has been in place for a long time as a result of consensus and has been tacitly and explicitly approved prior by various editors prior to its very recent deletion. It would have ben helpful if you had read and understood the editing/talk page history of the AE section that I provided yesterday. Those who seek to delete the content need to achieve a consensus to do so; no consensus is needed at this point to revert the deletion because there was no justification for deleting it in the first place. Lastly, I also couldn’t help but notice that the last 3 users to post comments on your talk page have been quite miffed with your editing on various articles. Perhaps you should review some of the basic WP policies and consider how to make your contributions and comments more constructive. Rhode Island Red 01:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus for the inclusion of the "Adverse Effects" section. Every single editor here at the talkpage wants it gone, except for Red. We have one source, from one study, that says that subjects developed a rash. No other studies cited a rash. We have another study that says that there were various symptoms, but that they were unrelated to treatment. We have no other reliable secondary sources. This is not sufficient material for an entire section on "Adverse Effects," which gives Undue Weight to the topic. The article already has plenty of indication in the lead that there are controversial studies, and it has a Criticism section. It does not also need a section header saying "Adverse Effects". --Elonka 01:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The header title "Adverse Effects" does not imply that the product has adverse effects any more than the headers "Cardiovascular Effects", "Antioxidant Effects", and "Nutrient Absorption" necessarily imply that the products have those effects. If you think the subheading gives undue weight, then why not simply propose a new title that you find to be accurate but less objectionable and then we can discuss it. It is the norm is any report on a pharmaceutical or botanical product to include known or possible adverse effects, as well as therapeutic effects, in even the most basic of product descriptions. This is not an unusual format that the article is currently following; on the contrary it would be a strange omission to not include such information when it exists in the public domain. As I had pointed out previously, Memorial Sloan Kettering, a reliable third party source, also commented on AEs, which establishes the notability of such information. And I don't see how the article having a Criticism section is relevant to AEs? The details on AEs are not criticism, they are simply facts. Do people normally consider it to be criticism when they see adverse effects listed on a bottle of nasal decongestant? Rhode Island Red 01:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The Memorial Sloan Kettering page refers to one study, by Inserra, "Immune function in elderly smokers and nonsmokers improves during supplementation with fruit and vegetable extracts." In that one study, a few of the subjects developed a rash. Evidently elderly subjects. Now, if a rash were a common side effect from multiple studies, or there were newspaper or magazine articles that commented on how JP often causes a rash, I could see including it. But one study, with a few elderly subjects, a few of whom developed a rash? Well, I'm sure that it was unpleasant for the subjects, and I don't mean them any disrespect, but I just don't see the incident as notable enough to include in the Misplaced Pages article. --Elonka 02:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the reason we should not include the Inserra study or the Memorial Sloan Kettering report, which both described hive-like rashes in some patients, is because other studies didn’t report the same side effects. That seems way off base. In every other section where we discuss the product’s effects, we seem to have no problem with the fact that the studies produced conflicting results. I don’t see why we should handle AEs any differently. How are we supposed to know why subjects developed particular AEs in one study but not another. Perhaps it was due to the duration of treatment or the age of the subjects. That doesn't seem like something we as editors should be speculating on; instead we should just report the facts that are available. Also, as I pointed out before, it would be inappropriate to make a personal judgment call as to the notability of the information on hive-like rashes, when notability has already been established by the fact that Memorial Sloan Kettering included this information in their product information sheet. Your dismissal of the hive-like rash AE based on what you perceive to be a low incidence in users, even if it were valid, still wouldn’t justify your previous deletion of the whole AE section, since the other gastrointestinal AEs appear to be at least somewhat common and the manufacturer has even acknowledged them. A third study, (Houston et al. 2007) which is not curently cited in the article, also described the early onset of GI AEs (of sufficient severity to cause the subjects to drop out of the study early) in some users of Juice Plus. Rhode Island Red 02:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The Inserra study and the Memorial Sloan Kettering report are the same thing. The MSK report references the Inserra study. They are not two independent sources, they're just one study, on some elderly patients, a few of whom developed a rash. It's not worth including in the Juice Plus article. --Elonka 02:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn’t claim that they were 2 independent sources. Inserra was the primary sources and MSK was the secondary source. The secondary source (MSK) describing the side effects in the Inserra study (the primary source) establishes the notability of the information. It is not relevant that this study was in “some elderly subjects” and although you might consider a hive-like rash to be trivial, it is not; hive-like rashes are universally regarded as adverse effects, as worthy of mention as any other adverse effect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhode Island Red (talk • contribs) 03:28, May 25, 2007 (UTC)

If you want to claim MSK as a secondary source, be aware that in MSK's own analysis of that study, they said it was a poor study, and they didn't even bother mentioning the rash in their summary of its results. (see "Literature summary and critique") saying The design of this study is inadequate. Again: The rash on a few elderly test subjects from one sloppy study is not notable enough to include in the Misplaced Pages article. --Elonka 03:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

That is an inconsistent position with respect to the other content in the article. Rosemary Stanton described the Wise study as a poor study as well, but we included both Wise's data and Stanton's comment in the JP article. Other Juice Plus studies were also poorly designed and the article mentions both the studies and their limitations (i.e. not double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized, etc.). For consistency, we could mention MSKs assessment of the Inserra study (i.e. that it was poor/sloppy, etc.) where we mention that study's findings of hive-like rashes in test subjects. Rhode Island Red 04:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, this is off-topic, but yes, I'd be willing to agree to that. Specifically, that in the "Nutrient Absorption" section of the article, we add a line that says, "One of these studies (link to Inserra) was criticized by the Memorial Sloan Kettering center for inadequate design, since it was not randomized, blinded, or placebo-controlled." --Elonka 04:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, we were discussing the Adverse Effects section, not the Nutrient Absoprtion section. You raised the point about MSKs comments on inadequate study design in relation to our discussion of the AE section. The qualifying statement about study design should go in the AE section where Inserra's AE results are mentioned (i.e. hive like rash). In that section we should also add the MSK reference, since MSK is a secondary source that has commented on Inserra's AE results. Rhode Island Red 15:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Red, there should not be an AE section, because there is not sufficient reliably sourced information to put in it, and because it adds yet another negative section to an article that is already extremely negative. As I understand it, you seem to have some desire here to turn the Misplaced Pages article into something like a pharmaceutical insert that lists every possible bad thing about Juice Plus that you can find. Your Point of View appears to be that Juice Plus is a bad product and that the public needs to be warned about it. That's your POV. Other people have different Points of View. You need to respect that there are different Points of View here, and work with others to create a balanced article, otherwise you are doing what's called "POV pushing." If you want all these negative details to be available on the internet, including Adverse Effects, long lists of ingredients, details from release forms, percentages of every single nutrient, quotes from every study that's ever had anything bad to say about Juice Plus, etc., I recommend that you create a webpage with all this information, rather than insisting that it all go into the Misplaced Pages article. --Elonka 16:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Amen, Elonka. Some of the editors who casually look in on this article's progress seem to mistakenly believe RIR is the defender of the article's neutrality so your clarity and impartiality is extremely refreshing. The negative bias to this article is so strong that I find it astounding. It's the reason why I (a person who has no financial interest in this product) became an editor. The Adverse Effects section should clearly be removed and the defenses for its inclusion read as unintentionally comedic.Citizen Don 06:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Country of origin and place of manufacturing and packaging

I have skimmed the site and cannot find the country of origin for the fruits and vegetables that are in Juice Plus as well as where the manufacturing and packaging is actually done.

My elderly aunt has started using Juice Plus - for many of the health benefits listed in the brochures and marketing cd but is interested in knowing this information. Anyone out there have any info? --Vsniece 17:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)vsniece

The manufacturer does not publicize the source(s) of the produce used in the products. However, at least some (if not all) is purchased pre-processed from third-party suppliers, as outlined by Wise et al. 1996. Wise reported that NAI purchases acerola cherry powder from Schweizerhall Inc. in Piscataway, NJ (a bulk supplier of raw materials and ingredients to the dietary supplement industry), and soy-derived vitamin E powder and Dunalliela salina (algae as a source of beta-carotene) from a chemical company in La Grange, IL called Henkel Corp., which now goes by the name Cognis (http://www.cognis.com). The sources of other ingredients have not been divulged. NAI does not appear to process any of the produce at their facility and it is likely that all of the fruit/vegetable ingredients are purchased pre-processed from other sources and merely encapsulated at the NAI facility. Perhaps this information should be included in the article. Any comments? Rhode Island Red 17:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is correct to state that "NAI does not appear to process any of the produce at their facility". In addition to the HQ at San Marcos, there is also a facility at Vista, CA. In view of the fact that the juicing and dehydration processes are a jealously guarded commercial secret, it would seem unlikely that these processes would be sub-contracted to other companies. These issues would need to be clarified and verified before any change to the article would be warranted - supposition just isn't sufficient. TraceyR 19:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

It is apparently correct unless there is evidence to the contrary. I am unaware of any evidence that the “juicing and dehydration processes are a jealously guarded commercial secret”. If this is a jealously guarded secret, it would not be guarded by NAI but by Schweizerhall Inc. and Cognis Inc., the chemical supply companies from which NAI purchases the pre-processed fruit and vegetable powders used in Juice Plus. It seems that the only secret NAI is jealously guarding is the fact that they buy at least some (if not all) of their fruit and vegetable ingredients as pre-processed extracts from other sources. Rhode Island Red 21:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The Wise study is already suspect. I would be reluctant to add any other information from that study unless it can be shown to have appeared in other secondary sources. --Elonka 22:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Which specific information do you think is suspect? Are you suggesting that Wise misreported the source from which NAI purchases the pre-processed fruit and vegetable powders used in Juice Plus? The data from this study is unreliable because it was a poorly designed study and carried out by an executive of the company that manufactures Juice Plus, and this has been noted by secondary sources; however, there is no reason to think that John Wise, the study's lead author, misstated the source from which the ingredients were purchased. In any case, this is a moot point because no new text has been proposed or added and further debate is unnecessary. Rhode Island Red 00:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Excessive detail

Per discussions above, I removed the following section from the article as excessively detailed.

According to information on the product labels, the suggested daily 4-capsule Juice Plus regimen provides the following nutrients (in % Reference Daily Intake with corresponding amounts in parentheses): folate 105% (420 µg), vitamin C 390% (234 mg), vitamin E 150% (45 IU), beta-carotene 250% (7.5 mg), calcium 6% (61 mg), and iron 4% (0.72 mg). These nutrients are purchased from third-party suppliers and added as fortifiers to the product's plant powders. According to the manufacturer, the additives are used to restore the levels of micronutrients lost during processing and to ensure uniformity.

Juice Plus Gummies, a candy-like supplement for children, were shown to consist of 85% corn syrup and 10% beef gelatin and to contain the following nutrient amounts, based on the recommended daily regimen of 6 gummies (approximate percentage of the adult Reference Daily Intake in parentheses): vitamin C 107.1 mg (179%); vitamin E 82.6 IU (275%); vitamin A 14.8 mg (494%); thiamin 1.39 mg (93%); riboflavin 0.05 mg (3%); niacin 2.51 mg (13%); pyridoxine 0.64 mg (32%); zinc 0.62 mg (4%); magnesium 13.65 mg (3%), calcium 94.5 mg (9%); potassium 58.4 mg (2%); and copper 0.32 mg (16%).

If someone wishes to re-include it as an infobox, that's fine, but it's just cluttering up the main text. --Elonka 22:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, please do not remove content from the article without adequate discussion. After you had recently raised this issue, I posted a length explanation of the justification for including the information, , to which you never replied. What is the point of opening a discussion if you do not participate and instead just delete the information anyway? It is not proper WP procedure to delete content without sufficient justification. You argument centers around the fact that you find the information to be “clutter” but as I have pointed out, the information is valuable, and to the best of my knowledge there is no WP policy that warrants removal of content solely on the basis of a lone opinion that it is “clutter”. Rhode Island Red 23:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Proper WP procedure is to build consensus. The consensus was to remove the information, though if you really want it back in the article, it might work in an infobox. Keep in mind WP:NOT#INFO, specifically #9 that Misplaced Pages is not the proper place for lists of statistics. Another way to handle it though, might be to put all the ingredient lists at Wikisource, and then we'll add a Wikisource box to this article. --Elonka 23:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

No consensus was reached regarding deletion of this specific information. The information is not statistics and is not a mere ingredient list. I responded to your previous comments regarding this information and you did not reply. It is not proper procedure to delete content that is still under discussion. It may be acceptable, as an alternative, to integrate the information thorugh info boxes or Wikisources but it is not acceptable to merely delete the content. Rhode Island Red 00:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

RIR, aside from yourself, can you please provide any diffs of any editors who wanted that information included? --Elonka 00:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Elonka, the procedure is that if you want material to be deleted, you need to provide sufficient justification; so far you have not. I have given justification as to why this material should be included and you did not bother to reply to any of the points I raised. Rhode Island Red 00:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not how it works. This article went through extensive debate over the last several months, as you know. Then we came up with a consensus version in February. Any controversial changes to the article from that version, have to achieve consensus on the talkpage before they can go into the article. It's not a matter of "squatters' rights", where someone can add something and then say, "Okay, I've added it, now you have to get consensus to remove it." Since February, you made several controversial additions. We have checked consensus here on the talkpage, and there was not consensus for that information to be added. So, it stays out of the article unless there is consensus to put it back in. To repeat: It's not about adding something and then insisting that other people get consensus to remove it, it's about getting consensus before something controversial can be added to the article. If you have other controversial additions, please suggest them here on the talkpage first. --Elonka 00:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Which WP policy dictates that any new content added to an article has to meet with prior approval? WP allows anyone to contribute content without a priori approval, and if there are objections, editors can, with justification, delete the content or voice their objections on the talk page. There is nothing controversial about the information in question. It is all verifiable and was adequately referenced. If you initiate a dialog to question why content has been included (as you did previously), and sufficient justification is provided, then it would be appropriate to respond; you did not do so. You asked for justification and it was provided but you deleted the content anyway. Rhode Island Red 00:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I gotta agree with Elonka on this one. Just reading that paragraph gives me a headache.Citizen Don 02:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I too agree with Elonka. The proposed deletions were announced here; there was no objection and a couple of editors were in agreement. In such cases as the long, detailed list of ingredients, less is more - after all, we do want people to read the article, not be put off by excessive detail.TraceyR 08:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Elonka, clearly we've established consensus here not to include this section. Matthew 20:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

Folks, this is not a case of vandalism or disruptive editing, this is a difference of opinion. No one here is acting in bad faith. We all want a good article. There are just differences of opinion as to what "good" means. But please, you're not going to get the changes that you want into the article, by edit-warring about it. All that does is make everyone look bad. The key to working on articles at Misplaced Pages, is to build consensus, as such:

• Stop the edit-warring
• Stop referring to other editors as vandals. No one here is acting in bad faith, it's just a difference of opinion
• Stop referring to other editors as disruptive. No one here is acting in bad faith, it's just a difference of opinion.

To get past this impasse, my strong recommendation is to proceed to the next step of Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution, which is formal mediation. This will allow us to seek the participation of a neutral mediator, and everyone can have their say. I've had good luck with mediation in the past -- I've seen people go into it with profound mistrust, but come out with a compromise version of the article that is acceptable to both sides, and an improved spirit of cooperation all around. So please, I strongly recommend that we do this. But, it will only work if everyone is willing to mediate. If any of the key participants refuse, the mediation will be rejected.

So, who is with me? Who is willing to join mediation on this issue? If you would like to participate, please indicate below. If all the key participants agree, I'll file the paperwork. Elonka 15:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

• Agree to mediation. --Elonka 15:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• Agree to (and welcome) mediation. TraceyR 23:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
• Undecided/Possible Yes. I have mixed feelings about mediation. First, I am deeply disappointed that some of the editors involved in this dispute have requested escalating to mediation when other avenues for resolution had not been pursued. I don’t see that any effort was made on the part of those who deleted the AE section to engage in dialog on the issues that were raised. Rather they chose to simply delete content and wrongly claim that a consensus supported the decision without elaborating or providing reasonable justification. That is not consensus building. If I was being asked to mediate this dispute, I would be struck by the reluctance of these editors to provide justification and to discuss the issues reasonably on the talk page. Secondly, according to my understanding, the next logical step in resolving the dispute should have been a request for comment (WP:RFC), not a request for mediation. It has been repeatedly pointed out that we should request input from outside editors but those requests were completely ignored. Lastly, and most importantly, nobody has yet properly framed the issue that we are asking mediation to solve. As I see it, the most pressing issue is to stop the arbitrary deletion of content and bypassing of WP policy and guidelines. To address that issue, I will happily agree to mediation. If we are to discuss issues of content then I would agree to mediation if the issues could be exposed to a wider audience of editors, but I think that a closed mediation cabal would not result in a fair resolution. In either case, I reiterate my disappointment that simpler preliminary steps toward resolution were not pursued by the other parties involved in this dispute. Although I am happy that the page has been locked because I think a 5-day rest will provide a much needed respite from the edit warring. Thanks admins! Rhode Island Red 02:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments on mediation request

Red, it's just not helpful for you to phrase your comments as, "It's the other editors' fault." For example, the other side could just as easily come back and say, "It's all Red's fault, he keeps violating WP:OWN". But neither statement is going to help us reach a compromise. As for an RfC, we've already done that, for example I posted to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Chemicals in February, and we've gotten attention from editors at the COI Noticeboard. If you want to file another RfC though, no one is stopping you, go right ahead. I'd recommend a listing either at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Economy, trade, and companies or Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology, list whatever you want. As for mediation, I'm not sure what you mean by a "closed mediation cabal." MedCab is an informal mediation process, but that's not what I'm suggesting -- I'm proposing full out formal mediation. The problem with MedCab is that it's really the luck of the draw as to what kind of mediator you get -- it's often just some random editor who popped in, who may not have any idea what mediation is about, and I don't think that would be a good idea for our situation. With formal mediation though, we get someone with more experience. As for whether it's open or closed, that's usually up to the participants. I have no preference on that. --Elonka 02:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not assigning blame I am merely pointing out that you and Matthew made no attempt to discuss the issues. An edit war should come as no surprise when one chooses to ignore reasonable comments and bypass discussion on the talk page. It's a rather obvious, basic step in reolving disputes and it is unfortunate that this was not pursued. I don't see how one can justify going straight to mediation when they have not even attempted to reply to comments made in good faith by other editors. If it is normal to skip disucssion and instead request mediation, then that might be what we will have to do, but it doesn't seem like proper procedure from what I know of WP:DR. Rhode Island Red 02:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Red, I can't speak for Matthew, but this Juice Plus talkpage is currently at #2 on my list of "talkpages where Elonka has spent her time on Misplaced Pages." And I've participated in a lot of talkpages over the years. To say that I haven't engaged in discussion, is absurd. It's not that I haven't participated, it's just that I'm not agreeing with you as much as you'd like.  ;) --Elonka 03:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I don’t want to bicker with you, but obviously the reference to not participating in the discussion refers specifically to your failure to reply to comments. You only responded by curtly claiming that your position was supported by a consensus without elaborating or answering to the detailed comments that were repeatedly posted. As a footnote, to your previous post, I don’t see how an RfC in February is relevant to the current issue about the AE section, which only arose last week. Two editors specifically asked that additional outside editors should be recruited prior to deletion of this longstanding content, but the request was ignored. Mediation is supposed to be invoked when all other methods have failed, but these other methods were not even attempted in this case. Rhode Island Red 03:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Red, if you want another RfC, file one. No one is stopping you. --Elonka 03:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I just might file an RfC, but since the page is now locked, I'd really like to take advantage and have a breather from Juice Plus for a couple of days. Rhode Island Red 03:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

We have a long weekend ahead of us and the page is locked for 5 days. How about we all take advantage and enjoy not having to talk about Juice Plus for a few days…consider it a holiday ceasefire. When we resume in a few days, we might even want to go back to the negotiating table and discuss the AE section in more detail. At the very least that would help us to frame the issues more clearly, which, if we can’t reach a compromise, would be helpful if we need to go for an RfC or mediation. Rhode Island Red 04:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

El I, as a prominent member of the scientific community who has proven the efficacy of Juice Plus+, want to laud you on your efforts to ensure that our product is presented in a positive light. We have been watching your efforts and edits and you have delivered on all accounts. Please let us know if we can assist you in any way and keep up the fight! I am sure we will be able to get the criticism section changed as soon as well. We have been working on an entirely new edit which we will post when you remove the protection. I am sure you will like our version very well. Thank you very much for your stand against RIR and his attempts to discredit our fine product. Dr sears 03:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, thanks, but my goal isn't to present the product in a positive light, I just want the Misplaced Pages article to present a balanced view, with both positive and negative elements included in a fair way. I'm not here "against RIR", I think he's done a lot of great work on the article, and I actually think the current Criticism section looks pretty good - what changes would you like though? Also, might I ask which studies that you have been involved with, which proved the efficacy of JP? And lastly, do you have any photos of the product which could be used in the article? It would be nice if we could get an image with actual photographer approval, rather than having to rely on a Fair Use image off of a webpage. --Elonka 03:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Wise JA, Morin RJ, Sanderson R, Blum K (1996). "Changes in plasma carotenoid, alpha-tocopherol, and lipid peroxide levels in response to supplementation with concentrated fruit and vegetable extracts: A pilot study". Curr Ther Res. 57 (6): 445–61.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Cite error: The named reference watzl was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. ^ Samman, S. "Letter to the Editor:Reply to Watzl and Bub" (pdf). J Nutr. 133 (7): 3726. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |yeacr= ignored (help)
4. ^ Cite error: The named reference stewart was invoked but never defined (see the help page).