Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:37, 31 May 2007

31 May 2007

Allison Stokke

Allison Stokke (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Holder of multiple national records in the pole vault, subject of dozens of news stories, at least 50 of them having nothing to do with her recent internet fame, speedy deleted as A7 (article about a person with no claim of importance or significance) in the middle of an AfD. Holder of multiple national records is clearly a person of significance. Requesting overturn to let the AfD run. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Relist. As the creator of the article, I am happy to let it undergo AfD, but it should be obvious that A7 of WP:CSD does not apply here. Lampman 23:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted for reasons explained at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allison Stokke by myself and others. If she becomes notable based on her sports achievements at a later date we can create a new article at that time. Burntsauce 23:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: That was an AfD discussion. The arguments brought forth there do not apply here, as we're discussing the speedy and whether A7 applies. Lampman 23:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • No, they apply. Deletion review is not for restoring pages that masquerade as encyclopedia articles but inevitably belong deleted. —Centrx→talk • 23:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. The non-meme links I can see only say that she was a regional high school champion, which clearly fails notability. If she makes the Olympics or wins the NCAAs, then write an article about her as an athlete, but the concentration on the internet meme is a BLP violation, and speedy deletion was proper. (BTW, I am basing this on the AfD discussion and the links provided, I can't see the article.) Corvus cornix 23:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Return to AfD. A7 does not apply if there is an assertion of importance, even if the assertion should prove unsourced or insufficient. The assertion of even an informal national record is an assertion of importance. Doesn't prove it, and may not be enough, but no single individual gets to decide that, & I thought that this at least was generally understood. Speedy is not elastic. BLP is not a speedy criterion, and this is not obvious BLP even if it were. Arguments to the contrary, unilateral deletions for BLP can only be justified by imminent harm, and if the story is already out in the web, there won't be any additional imminent harm. Short of that, BLP is not decided by what any one admin or editor wants to call it, but by the community. I would have removed her picture immediately if it had been there, biut the rest is arguable & should be argued. DGG 23:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy deletion is proper if the bio is non-notable, and/or if there is a BLP violation, both of which apply in this case. Corvus cornix 23:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense subpages

Traditional Misplaced Pages feature, deleted without ample discussion; has widespread audience, deleted on account of "not following GDFL" due to lack of attribution, but no work at all goes into remedying this attribution problem. I feel BJAODN can be restored and rehabilitated. — Rickyrab | Talk 22:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Deleted unless we have a group of editors willing to go through and make sure that everything under those 60+ subpages are all attributed appropriatly, which I am in favor of if you actually want to keep it. But I'm sure the majority of editors of this encyclopedia have better things to do than waste our time with this page. — Moe ε 22:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Even a minority of editors is still plenty - this is a large-editorship encyclopedia. Besides, why should we be like all the other encyclopedias? This is Misplaced Pages. This is a new kind of encyclopedia. — Rickyrab | Talk 22:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Good God, this is a project to build a free-content encyclopedia, not manage the rejects! Focusing efforts on a group of pages that ran directly counter to that end (violation of the license so not properly 'free' content, not encyclopedic) is asinine. Mackensen (talk) 22:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Then permit Uncyclopedia to have the pages in question so that they can unravel the pages and credits in question, AT THE VERY LEAST. — Rickyrab | Talk 22:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

    Um, who are you talking to? Last I checked Mackensen was not the author of the BJAODN content. Picaroon (Talk) 22:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

    • I am talking to the Misplaced Pages editorate in general. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

      Comments from this user indicate a distinct lack of understanding of the GFDL... for instance, Uncyclopedia cannot have it because, of course, they are CC, not GFDL. Among other things. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 23:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

      • Wrong. Uncyclopedia can practice GDFL if necessary. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

        • I don't think it's that easy to just halt a project and let it lead another route like that. — Moe ε 23:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
          • So? Difficult things have been done before. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, because Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a collection of idiocy which does not belong in an encyclopedia. Especially not a copyright-violating collection of idiocy which does not belong in an encyclopedia. Picaroon (Talk) 22:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. Valid under CSD G12, never mind the BLP problems given some of the unnaceptable personal attacks on living people those subpages included. The content of those pages was not attributed to the contributors who made the posts and therefore not compatible with GFDL. Pooring time and efforts into sourcing those edits would be a momental waste of time and energy - I thought we were trying to build an encyclopedia not a collection of bad "jokes". WjBscribe 22:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • It would NOT be a waste of time, especially if outsourced to Uncyclopedia. For years BJAODN was an outlet for people who didn't want to contend with just making boring edits. Some of us are trying to build an encyclopedia and a collection of bad jokes. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Wrong, we are here to create a encyclopedia first and foremost and nothing goes above that priority, especially if you're here just for BJAODN. If you're here just to create jokes and not be serious at all you deserve to be blocked. — Moe ε 23:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I am NOT just here for BJAODN, OK? I like creating an encyclopedia as much as the next guy. But I also like BJAODN. GIVE UNCYCLOPEDIA THE PAGES AND EDITS CONCERNED AND LET THE UNCYCLOPEDIANS SORT IT OUT, if you are not willing to stop engaging in this act of censorship. Or at LEAST allow us the ability to view the pages in question. I will review freedom-of-information laws and copyright information to see what ways exist for one to view the censored content. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. It boggles the mind why people are arguing in favor of breaking the GFDL for material which has no place in an encyclopedia in the first place. If you want to write nonsense, or archive nonsense, Uncyclopedia is thataway. Burntsauce 23:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. The merit of archiving nonsense is debatable, but what's not is that it's a GFDL violation minefield. Krimpet (talk) 23:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn on the basis that there was no attempt to obtain consensus *BUT* I can see some of these pages getting heavily, heavily redacted and/or deleted once that consensus is established, and I would not at all oppose that. Alternative option - set up a committee to mine the clear non-violators from the pile (while keeping deleted), put those up in an Archive, and set up a new-gen BJAODN with clear rules and guidelines, and reversion of any additions that don't meet them. Minimum standard should be - does not fail BLP, diff included (of course this is difficult for genuinely deleted articles but a link to them should be acceptable with name of user(s)). I would be happy to volunteer for such a task if required, and I'm happy for those who disagree with me to scrutinise anything I think worth redeeming - many of which are *not* GFDL violations as they clearly and unambiguously linked to the diff and username, or version, which contained the information. Orderinchaos 23:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted this is one time I do endorse IAR on grounds of common sense. The main page is more than sufficient.DGG 23:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Stephen_Durnan

Stephen_Durnan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

A7_Speedy Delete Captain cannibas75 21:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• I still disagree. This is from the Misplaced Pages Notability Argument page:

• Valid content is deleted

The recent fundraising page says, "Imagine a world in which every person has free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." We are not doing that, indeed we are actively preventing that, if we are deleting articles solely due to their obscurity. "Detailed obscure topics hurt no-one because it's pretty hard to find them by accident, and Misplaced Pages isn't paper" (from Misplaced Pages:Importance). Further, currently obscure, or seemingly obscure, subjects may garner more popular interest at a later date. In such a case, deleted articles will constitute a loss of valuable (and perhaps, in the transitory world of the internet, irreproducible) information.

• Obscure content isn't harmful

Misplaced Pages is not paper and (practically) has no size limits, and so should include "everything" that fits within its other criteria. There is room for articles on any and every verifiable subject. There is no harm in including an obscure topic, because if it is truly non-notable, people simply won't search for it or link to it. It will not create a significant server load as such.

I understand that you may find Stephen Durnan obscure, but I am arguing that there is some interest in him. There is an article on "Durnan" on Misplaced Pages and Stephen as well as many other Durnans are mentioned in it. Since I have a great amount of information on Stephen Durnan, being his relative, I wrote this article telling his story using verifiable information that I have such as Census reports, Marriage Certificate, and Death records, as well as the Oral History that I have great knowledge of being his distant relative. I make clear distinctions between what is verifiable, those things that can be assured due to evididence, and the oral history. This man would be only a minor footnote if he had only one or two children, but this man had at least thirteen children and his grandson had 19 children and the Durnan family is large enough that a circus tent is involved in family reunions. A search of Genealogy sites shows tremendous interest in Stephen Durnan as there are a great many decendants. I could have wrote about one of his sons, but there isn't as much interest in his son as much more history of the son is known as opposed to Stephen. Stephen appears out of nowhere in the family lineage and for that reason, there has been a great deal of interest in his life by his numerous decendants. Therefore, I am asking you to reconsider as the information contained here is verifiable, as I am his direct decendant, and while his notability may be limited, it is by no means a worthless subject. I also affirm that there is no conflict of interest as I was careful to write the article in a neutral manner and with the hopes that those who search the Durnan surname, can link to Stephen and read more of the story since so many Durnans are direct decendants. If there is enough notability in the Surname, I argue that there is enough notability in the man that is responsible for much of that surname in the United States as well as Canada today. One of Stephen's decendants is Bill Durnan, famous hockey Goal Tender but that is already listed on the Durnan surname page. Thank you. -Eric E. Durnan

• I provide the verifability in that I am a direct decendant. You cannot say that Misplaced Pages does not contain ancestry information. While Stephen Durnan is no General Lee, this is found at General Lee's page:

Ancestry

Robert was the son of Maj. Gen. Henry Lee III "Light Horse Harry" (1756-1818), Governor of Virginia, and second wife, Anne Hill Carter (1773-1829). Henry married first, Matilda Lee (1766-1790), daughter of Hon. Philip Ludwell Lee, Sr., Esq. (1727-1775) and Elizabeth Steptoe (1743-1789), who married secondly, Philip Richard Fendall I, Esq. (1734-1805).

Anne was the daughter of Hon. Charles Carter, Sr. (1737-1802) of "Shirley", and his second wife, Anne Butler Moore (1756).

Henry III, was the son of Maj. Gen. Henry Lee II (1730-1787) of “Leesylvania” and, Lucy Grymes (1734-1792) the "Lowland Beauty".

Lucy was the daughter of Hon. Charles Grymes (1693-1743) and Frances Jennings.

Henry II, was the third son of Capt. Henry Lee I (1691-1747) of “Lee Hall”, Westmoreland County, and his wife, Mary Bland (1704-1764).

Mary was the daughter of Hon. Richard Bland, Sr. (1665-1720) and his second wife, Elizabeth Randolph (1685-1719).

Henry I, was the son of Col. Richard Lee II, Esq., “the scholar” (1647-1715) and Laetitia Corbin (ca. 1657-1706).

Laetitia was the daughter of Richard’s neighbor and, Councillor, Hon. Henry Corbin, Sr. (1629-1676) and Alice (Eltonhead) Burnham (ca. 1627-1684).

Richard II, was the son of Col. Richard Lee I, Esq., "the immigrant" (1618-1664) and Anne Constable (ca. 1621-1666).

Anne was the daughter of Thomas Constable and a ward of Sir John Thoroughgood.

• May I kindly assert the above arguments again that while Stephen Durnan is no Jesus, or General Lee, he is an object of limited notability in the fact that there is a "Durnan" article on this very site that mentions him. I did not create that page/article. I merely attempted to create a page from that page that would contain a link to Stephen for those that wished to learn more about the family and those with that surname. Stephen Durnan may be obscure to many, but the above-quoted argument that I found suggests that obscure is not harmful and I assure that the content is valid. What harm will be done in adding this to the encyclopedia? The fact that Stephen is mentioned in the Durnan article and his name is raised on many web sites dealing with the Durnan surname, tells me that there is some, albeit limited notability. As the argument states, if there is so little interest in Stephen Durnan, then you will not be expending any bandwidth and no one will search for it anyway. I do not believe this to be the case as the article for "Durnan" receives visitors and I believe that the site for Stephen will too. Can this article be put back up and tagged for discussion? May 28, 2007 21:03 CDT

Please see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a directory of genealogical entries. —Centrx→talk • 14:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Non-notable. Senordingdong 21:44, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable at this point The information provided was a listing of basic facts about his life and the names of his children, and a unsourced account of his adventures of a farmer, of which the most notable event seems to have been getting a hernia at a barn rising. Somewhat more than this is needed, as we've been consistently deleting local worthies unless there's some actual notability from somethings, and sources to prove it. I don't think the article asserts any reasonable notability, and a speedy was probably appropriate. I will be glad to email the content to the author, --e mail me from my user page so I know the email address, but I do not think that any further work on this is likely to make an acceptable article. DGG 23:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

He has the material since after putting it up for review, he went ahead and recreated it word-for-word at Stephen durnan. IrishGuy 00:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion, for the record. Totally unsourced article; claims of editor to personal knowledge are not reliable sources for an encyclopedia. No prejudice exists against a reliably-sourced rewrite. Xoloz 01:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Srikeit 16:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~~~~

• Endorse deletion. The article is marginally more coherent than the request, but in the end, as it says, "Very little is actually known about Stephen Durnan". Yup. Guy (Help!) 22:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet cleanup

As pointed out here on the admin board, the following users are all sockpuppets of the same person and have been blocked: Newport, Poetlister, R613vlu, Brownlee, Londoneye, Taxwoman, Simul8, Osidge, Holdenhurst and Runcorn. These ten users were in the habit of supporting each other's comments in deletion debates. As such, I request that the following debates be overturned, because the present outcome is obviously the result of sockpuppet vote stacking. Note that in all cases the closing admin was unaware of this.

Overturn and delete:

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_24#Category:Jewish_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_12#Category:Jewish_businesspeople

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_10#Category:Maimonides

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_10#Category:Jewish_scientists

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fictional portrayals of psychopaths

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kinnernet

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_4#Category:Jewish_fencers

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Zsa Zsa Riordan (2nd nomination)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/London N1

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_December_27#Category:Actors_by_religion

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Taylor Garron

Overturn and rename:

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_20#Category:United_States_National_Guard_officers

Overturn and undelete:

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_March_22#Category:Jewish_Christians

The POV should be obvious. Note that this is not a list of every deletion debate he's participated in, just the ones that would have had a meaningfully different outcome had he not. I have no objection to splitting this debate if some arguments apply to one article/category but not to the others. >Radiant< 14:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. The most recent one of these was a month ago. Wouldn't it be a better idea to simply renominate the ones you still feel should be deleted? For the record, the psychopaths AfD was already endorsed here (I don't know if there was sockpuppetry involved here, but still), and I wouldn't dare touch London N1. I really think these should simply be nominated on their own. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: I have to agree that the most useful procedure would probably be simply to renominate anything that you believe should be deleted. Of course in the nomination you would point out that the prior debate was affected by the sockpuppetry and therefore shouldn't be considered valid. However, I would support relisting anything that was deleted potentially as a result of duplicate !voting. Newyorkbrad 15:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: Yes, renominate these deletion discussions. Better to err on the side of caution.--Alabamaboy 15:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support for any where his votes actually changed the results. After that, if anyone wants to re-open discussion on one or more of these, let them do it according to the regular rules. Od Mishehu 16:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support but only for where it made a difference. There's a list here for any CfD/AfD that may have been overlooked: Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Archive/May 2007#Vote and Consensus Frauds. Actually there's a disclaimer there that those are just the most recent. There's probably more from earlier but I'm not sure anyone really wants to have to redo everything. Bulldog123 16:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Taylor Garron — Lack of contribution by the sock-puppet would not have changed the no consensus outcome, since the significant argument was presented by another person.
  • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kinnernet — Lack of contribution by sock-puppets would still have left several editors with differing opinions.
  • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fictional portrayals of psychopaths — This is another discussion where knowledge of the sock-puppetry reveals a clear thread of conversation in the lower half of the discussion. However, lack of contribution by sockpuppets (which includes one additional sock-puppet who was not ballot-stuffing, incidentally) would not have influenced my contribution to the discussion. ☺ And there was significant discussion amongst non-sockpuppet editors.
  • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/London N1 — Another thread of conversation becomes apparent, once one knows that there's a single person there. However, article merger does not involve AFD, and the fallout from Runcorn's sock-puppetry is already being addressed for these cases at Talk:London postal district.
  • Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Zsa Zsa Riordan (2nd nomination) — Once one knows that there is one person behind the accounts editing in the lower half of the discussion, a clear thread of conversation becomes clear. This is also evident from Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Zsa Zsa Riordan. These discussions were clearly influenced by the deception. This is the only discussion where renominating, checking for sources first of course, would appear to be appropriate.
• What is of more concern is any AFD discussions that Runcorn closed where xyr sock-puppets were involved in the discussion. Uncle G 16:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The second Wipipedia AFD was a bad example of that... but that has luckily already been addressed. A list of all AFDs he closed should be looked into... --W.marsh 16:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• I have listed one of these articles for a new afd here. I suspect most of this stuff will have to be relisted separately... --W.marsh 16:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse this, or maybe relisting in the case of the overturn -> deletes. Guy (Help!) 17:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• I don't have a very strong opinion here, but I would think about just relisting all of these. --After Midnight 19:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• For the ones where you know what the result will be, there's not much point in re-listing, but there wouldn't be any harm in it, under the circumstances. This is a good reason to remember that the strength of the arguments and the quality of the article are more important than the number of people saying it should be kept or deleted. — CharlotteWebb 20:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Do you think that any of the AFDs apart from Zsa Zsa Riordan would have come to a different result if the same discussion had been had without the sock-puppet contributions? I think that they would have all come to the same result, for the very good reason that you touch upon: The actual substantial arguments were being made by other editors, and weren't swayed by the sock-puppets, so discounting the sock-puppet contributions doesn't really affect the discussion. I definitely think that we should not run Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/London N1 again, for the simple reason that editors appear to be already resolving it without deletion on Talk:London postal district. Let's not disrupt that. Uncle G 22:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Relist all. It would be quite difficult to discern a proper consensus from any of these debates considering his/her extensive sway over them. It would be best to give them a fair debate this time. Krimpet (talk) 22:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Relist separately and of course find any others. The articles are not identical, & the preesence of the sockpuppets so screwed up the debates that I wouldn't attempt to rejudge them hastily in one lump like this. (Knowing this does clarify some earlier unexpected decisions) DGG 23:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

NWA Hawaii

NWA Hawaii (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Apparently this was speedy deleted, though the talk page remains at Talk:NWA_Hawaii without any note of speedy deletion. While this page may deserve deletion, I do not think it is/was a candidate for speed deletion and that AfD is the proper approach. Antonrojo 13:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Question: Have you requested reconsideration by the deleting administrator? Newyorkbrad 16:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I was not aware, until now, that I could find that out through Special:Logs. The page had been deleted and restored previously, and the current note states there are very few ghits, when I am finding over 2,500 so I'll ask for more detail on the reason for deletion. Antonrojo 16:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Per my deletion summary: Spammy, written by the subject, edit war between subject and detractor, lack of independent sources, fewer than 150 unique Google hits and not a lot in there to work from in neutralising. WP:CSD G11 and A7. Guy (Help!) 22:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Category:Flags of Nepal

Category:Flags of Nepal (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Procedural nomination by closing admin, following discussion on my talk page with a dissatisfied participant in the May 20 CfD. My reading of the debate is so completely different from that of the objector that I think a review would be helpful to both us. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse keep - The consensus for keeping the category was clear and unambiguous; 2/3 of the people voted to keep the category. jbmurray, who is disputing the decision by the administrator, seems to be unhappy that none of the participants in the discussion specifically cited WP:OCAT#Small_with_no_potential_for_growth whereas BrownHairedGirl cited this guideline when closing this discussion. In that case, may I clearly state that when I wrote my comments to keep the category, I was referring to the criteria at WP:OCAT#Small_with_no_potential_for_growth. Dr. Submillimeter 12:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• The closing looks reasonable to me. However, at some point in the future I would suggest a group nomination of this and similar categories, because such countries only has a single flag and is unlikely to have more than that any time soon. There is something to be said for the scheme, but there's also something to be said for not using cats that can only contain a single article. Endorse now, relist at some point in the future when people who care more about this issue than I do feel this is appropriate. >Radiant< 12:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Just on this point, that it would have been better to suggest a group nomination... and beyond the fact that I raised this suggestion in the debate over what wasn't in the end my proposal. I've received this response before, but especially as someone relatively new to these Category deletion discussions I'm reluctant directly to propose mass deletions. See for instance my comments also at Wikipedia_talk:Overcategorization#Categories_for_people_comment.2Fquestions. Again, there may be some consensus behind your response, Radiant, (in which case again I'd be happy to be pointed to the relevant discussion) but it seems to make equal sense to try a test case before proposing mass deletions. I.e., in this case, discuss the case of Category:Flags of Nepal on its merits, and should consensus be reached there then apply similar logic to other categories in the parent category. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 13:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, it certainly does make sense to do a test case before a mass nomination. However, sometimes people will object to the test case merely because it isn't a mass nom (which tends to be spurious with respect to articles, but not wrt categories). That's basically what happened here ("keep as part of the overall scheme"). In such cases one may want to proceed to the mass nom at some point. >Radiant< 13:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Let me adapt some of what I said at User_talk:BrownHairedGirl: I'm surprised by the closure of the above category, not least because in the closer's summing up introduced a whole new argument, for which no consensus had been sought or found within the discussion itself. Moreover, the argument is hardly "clear": I'd say it was clearer that when Misplaced Pages:Categorization, for instance, talks of "large" categories, it means categories with over 200 members, such as for instance Category:Songs by artist.

Dr. Submillimeter now says that he/she had this argument in mind when commenting in the debate. I'm all the more disappointed that there was therefore no response to my specific request for the precedent as to the notion that "putting the articles 'below the line', where likely to be missed" would "disturb" the "the Category:Flags by country category tree." Had the reference been made at the time, when I asked to be pointed towards some precedent, then there might have been some discussion as to how applicable this guideline may be to the debate.

I should say that I recognize that there was a 6:3 supermajority, though I had understood, contrary to Dr. Submillimeter, that these discussions were attempts to reach consensus rather than votes.

Indeed, the context of my disappointment is less the NPOV summing up, or even whether or not Category:Flags of Nepal lives or dies, but with problems both with the Misplaced Pages category system (mentioned in the discussion) and the fact that there is such a marked reluctance to engage in discussion at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion (for which I could provide many further examples). --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 12:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Jbmurray, first point: it would be nice if you could assume that I acted in good faith. As the per discussion on my talk page, I don't recognise this repeated suggestion that I "introduced a whole new argument", although I would not rule out doing so if there was a clear wider policy breach at issue (as an extreme example, if all the votes were to keep a Category:Lying evil politicians who eat babies and conspire with Satan to destroy human civilisation, I'd still close the CfD with a "speedy delete" as an attack category). That's part of what jbmurray missed: that a closing admin's job is to weigh the arguments and not just count votes. In this case, the arguments made by the keep voters agree with a current guideline, and there was no significant support for any other position based on guidelines.

The one change I might make I was closing the CfD again would be to note that a group nomination for the parent category and its sub-categories was option, but there seemed to be very support for the proposition that these categories were inherently a bad idea, so I could have been legitimately criticised for following that route. In this case, I do wonder if there might have been less complaint I had made a one-word closure; I hope not, but it would be a pity if closing admins were to feel that closing a CfD with some sort of an explanation was only going to raise the chance of accusations of bias :(

However, the conclusions I draw from this are a little wider:

1. That it is very advisable for participants in a CfD to cite the policy or guideline on which they base their !votes, so that that the discussion is comprehensible to those not versed in CfD minutiae.
2. That an explanation of a closure can help (and where a CfD is not overwhelmingly clear in its outcome, I try to close with more than a single-word "keep" or delete"), but that it cannot explain every aspect of CfD policy and practice. In this case, I think that Jbmurray appears to be at a bit of a disadvantage in not being familiar with all the relevant guidance, and I wonder whether we have sufficiently clear explanations of the CfD process?
3. That people new to CfD may find it a rather bewildering process. To some extent hat's inevitable due to the huge number of guidelines and conventions involved, but I hope that we can all remember that CfD should not be seem to develop too much of a cliquey jargon which could make the rest of community feel excluded from the process. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Thanks for this, BHG. Let me first clarify that I have at no point meant to suggest that you acted in anything other than good faith. If you have received that impression, I apologize. I disagree with the way in which you closed the debate, but I hope I can express that disagreement without suggesting any deliberate malfeasance.

Second, I agree with your conclusions (above, in this discussion) on the whole. I was indeed glad (as I said on your talk page) that you pointed me to WP:OCAT#Small_with_no_potential_for_growth. I am sure I had read that page, but I had not made the connection during the debate to that clause. I wish that the connection had been made during the debate. I think that would have helped the discussion and the search for consensus. Again, I disagree with your reading of that clause (and therefore the reading that Dr. Submillimeter claims to have implicitly followed), but think that precisely for that reason it should be up for discussion. It seems to me it refers to categories with over 200 subcategories. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, and perhaps it could be clarified further. I am genuinely seeking out (as I hope should be obvious) the reasoning and rationale and precedents behind categorization policy and decisions. Hence I explicitly asked for such precedent during the debate. I admit that I sometimes get frustrated when it seems to me that the answers to these questions are taken for granted and not worth providing. And again, I'm sorry if that makes it sound as though I am not assuming good faith. But once more, often I find in these CFD discussions either that there is little attempt to reach consensus, or that there is little done to point to previous consensus. That may indeed just be an unfortunate impression. But it's why I followed up on this particular closure. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment OK, meanwhile I've tried to spark some discussion on one of the issues that emerges from this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Overcategorization#Question_about_Small_with_no_potential_for_growth. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - and for the record, my reference to the category scheme in my !vote was an implicit reference to WP:OCAT as well; I will endeavour in any future similar nomination to mention it more explicitly. Otto4711 16:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Wjhonson/Shawn_Hornbeck

User:Wjhonson/Shawn_Hornbeck (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

page speedied without any valid speedy reason Wjhonson 01:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse. Per deleting admins's summary: Someone seems to be making a WP:POINT. If that article is deleted and endorsed then this is inflammatory, if it is not, it is unnecessary. Attempted end-runs around policy and process should be discouraged. --Calton | Talk 02:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Please be so good as to explain in detail how the contents of that page were any sort of end-run around any policy or process. Perhaps you're not familiar with exactly what the page said. Wjhonson 02:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Policy and process were not followed in any of the proposal, the discussion, or the deletion. This is part of the problem. The admins probably do not understand and certainly do not follow the policies which they quote and link to at every possible opportunity. Smackyuk 02:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC) Mispost Meant for the Daimonin review below which has been censored. 84.43.30.186 12:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, whether or not it's an end-run around process (which, given the contentious DRV on the subject, it very well might be), this was a GFDL violation since no attempt was made to preserve the history, and the nominator did not even make very many edits to the article when it was in the article space. Valid G12 deletion. --Coredesat 04:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Another vote from someone who did not actually read the page that was actually there, but only thinks they know what it said. Can we not have a coutesy undeletion of the last version so we can all see what it actually said? Wjhonson 04:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm an admin, and I saw what was there. I'm not sure if this can be undeleted for the review given that there are copyright issues involved, and you apparently revert-warred with a user over a {{db-copyvio}} tag on the page. --Coredesat 04:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - G12 is not a reason. If need be, the relevant non-offending history from the old article can be restored and userfied. We userfy deleted pages all the time on demand. Personally, though, I really don't like single-incident biographies. If this article is going to exist, it would be much better to title it by the incident like "search for Shawn Hornbeck" or something and redirect the name to it. --BigDT 05:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• This is yet another tired attempt to challenge the operation of the biographies of living persons policy. The deletion was of course unimpeachable. --Tony Sidaway 06:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - The deleted article was not a biography. The deleted article consisted of one single sentence. I'm surprised that some of you would comment without even looking at what was there JUST RECENTLY. This has nothing at all to do with what was there two, three or twelve edits ago. ONLY with what was there, last. So at least check before you comment. Wjhonson 06:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. All the deleted version of the page said was "This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Misplaced Pages article "Shawn Hornbeck"." However, the BLP-violating previous version of the page was still in the history. I think this is best left gone. Neil (►) 09:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• I can't see any obvious purpose for this page other than preparation for an end-run around deletion policy. Wjohnson created the article with a single sentence and a link to the deleted WP page, his post to my talk page leads me to believe that tis was done solely to avoid a G12 speedy as a GFDL violation should the deleted content be pasted in. Without the deleted content it is pointless, with it it is WP:POINT. The idea that we should have to follow yet another set of process, rehashing the same arguments between the same people in yet another venue, is just silly. There are ways and means of pursuing this dispute, this is not one of them - the phrase "get a clue" springs to mind, actually. If Wjohnson is genuinely convinced that there is an encyclopaedic subject here, he needs to work with those members of the community who have raised valid concerns with the presentation of it as a biography, rather than appearing to want to end-run round those concerns and take the dispute to yet another venue. Guy (Help!) 09:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Daimonin (closed)