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Revision as of 01:20, 5 June 2007

Bolshevik support?

I find this article quite confusing. It seems to say that the pogroms took place with the support of the Bolsheviks, but there don't seem to be references as to whether this is the case. Would it possible to clarify who controlled the territory at the time and whether the pogroms had any sort of official support? Warofdreams talk 18:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I’m interested in how you arrived at your conclusion and where exactly did you find the citation indicating that the pogroms took place with the support of the Bolsheviks. One of the links I suggest you examine leads to text by Elias Tcherikower called "The Pogroms in Ukraine in 1919" where the question of control over the territory is at least partialy explained. --Poeticbent talk 18:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

My point was that the references didn't seem to support the contention, which may simply have seemed possible from my reading of the text, but I was keen to see clarified. Either way, the sections of text in the article which suggested this seem now to have gone. Warofdreams talk 00:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the disappearance of most of the article. It is an action verging on vandalism and will not be tolerated. --Poeticbent talk 00:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I've looked through the references, and can't find any suggestion that Red Army detachments were involved, so I've removed that claim. I also can't quite make sense of the sentence "Apparently, the new communist ideology of tolerance (see: Lenin, "On Anti-Jewish Pogroms") was very short-lived, and as early as 1918 the Russian Jews became victims of vicious attacks." Despite having two references, the sections visible to me on Google Books don't seem to support the claim. I suspect that other sources could be found to confirm the second half of the sentence, although I'd like to see it clarified who carried out the attacks (peasants? sections of the Red Army?), while the first half seems rather contentious and likely to be difficult to source satisfactorily. Warofdreams talk 01:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

scope of the article

I removed the material about events that were not part of Kiev pogrom. This is not a review article such as History of Jews in Ukraine, in Russia, Antisemitism in Russian Empire, etc. There are more general articles for that, please use this material there. --Irpen 22:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I find your attitude unacceptable. The article is about the series of pogroms in Kiev and its vicinity in the year 1919. It’s all highly relevant. --Poeticbent talk 00:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The article used to talk length about multiple pogroms in various townlets within the pale Ukraine-wide. Kiev was not part of the pale and its pogroms are just that, Kiev pogroms. If you want to talk about large-scale murders all over Ukraine at about that time, do that properly. The article about Kiev pogrom is should be about just that, not anything else. There is Ukraine after Russian Revolution article. There is a History of Jews in Ukraine article. There is also History of Jews in Russia and USSR. Perhaps you may want to start an article about Pogroms in Ukraine in early 20th century or something like that. I would have no objections. I do object to adding random material to random articles.

Finally, the article currently talks about three separate events. Is there any scholarly publication that calls this particular series of events in suburbs of Kiev as "Kiev pogrom". If not, this is an unacceptable synthesis, which is WP:OR. --Irpen 00:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do your own legwork. All three events listed in the article are at various times referred to as “Kiev pogrom of 1919” in all scholarly publications although not at the same time. That might be a source of confusion for those who haven’t read about them separately. It is important that the three massacres be put together for clarity and under one title. --Poeticbent talk 00:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I will do some leg work to find out whether these events are connected elsewhere. However, the events in Volhynia, Proskuriv, "all over Ukraine" are separate events at any rates and should not be pasted to a randomly picked article. I don't want to delete encyclopedic info from wp. Nothing of this sort. This is exactly why I commented it out rather than deleted so that it can be moved to proper places.

I suggest the following. Take a look at the existing more general articles were such events might fit. Or start a new article about pogroms in Ukraine from the time of the closing years of the RU empire to the times where Soviet power firmly established (1921) that pretty much ended any mob violence. Please understand that the scope of the articles must fit the title and their actual contents. In the meanwhile I will try to find out whatever I can about Justingrad and a mysterious "Ivankov district" of Kiev and add the info to this article.

While this is being sorted out, I suggest we tag the article with {{noncompliant}} to preserve the integrity of the WP for the non-editing folks who use Misplaced Pages as a source of info. --Irpen 00:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on the titling of the article, but the general principle of providing background and a summary of the aftermath of an event seems entirely appropriate for any encyclopaedia. Certainly, this article could use much more detail on the actual events - and the Tcherikower article looks a good starting point for this - but this does not mean that it is non-compliant with Misplaced Pages policies. Warofdreams talk 01:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

"Aftermath" of something is usually what is connected to the event by a "cause and effect" connection. The whole Ukraine was being rocked by violence. As always in any wave of country-wide violence Jews who were easiest to abuse suffered most and this anti-Jewish violence perpetrated by all sorts of scum: the worst elements of local mobs, the monarchists, the Poles, the nationalists, the anarchists, unaffiliated gangs, "neo-Cossacks", "partisans", etc.

What caused this all is impossible to say in one-two paragraphs but certainly not the Kiev pogrom was not the event that caused the rest. Kiev pogrom was nothing more that one such event of the many. General review and analysis belong to review articles rather than event articles. We already have several review articles about events in Ukraine of that time. Another narrower review article can be started. But picking one of such event articles and saturate it with events that are unrelated to it makes a mess and does not help the reader's understanding of this chaotic and violent time. --Irpen 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)