Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:36, 6 June 2007

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• Archive 1 -- Feb/March 07
• Archive 2 -- April/May 07
  

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YMMV

Sorry, I missed your earlier post a few days ago. The intent, at least, was that if someone is having a cow, a dose of funny can defuse the situation. YMMV ("Your Mileage May Vary") in that not everyone finds the same things funny. So no insult was intended, and my apologies if it seemed like one. I am aware of instances of admin abuse (e.g. protecting a page in their preferred version) but that does not appear to be the case here.

I realize it's annoying if people use funky abbreviations to explain things; however, the reason people tend to do this is generally because we see a lot of situations that are similar to issues we've seen and discussed before - so people use shorter explanations and/or abbrevs because they (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) believe other people are also pretty much familiar with the kind of situation. Linking such terms gives at least some explanation of what is meant, but it may be incomplete. This may explain why such wikijargon is a bannable offense on Citizendium (although I doubt that approach is all that helpful).

The issue of admins "vs." regular editors is a rather complex situation. Power does come into it, but a part of that is in assumptions of non-admins, that may prove to be incorrect. The perception is that admins have more respect, and are more likely to be correct, than non-admins. However, this is a false causality: it is not that people gain more respect caused by becoming admins, it is that already-respected people have a tendency to become admins as a result.

In general I believe the term "admin" is badly chosen, in that it implies more power than is intended. For instance, I've seen people who believe that they're not allowed to disagree with an admin, an approach which most admins would find rather silly. Suppose that a non-admin would have "denied" the edit request and moved on, would that make the situation different? The "stepping-on-toes" issue is not nearly such a big deal: admins disagree with one another all the time, and undo each other's actions all the time. And there are clear and generally working channels to deal with actual problem admins; the main reason why these seem at times not to work is because most requests on these channels are frivolous.

I guess I should stop ranting now. I hope this clears some stuff up, and feel free to disagree or ask questions or whatnot. Happy editing! >Radiant< 11:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

There are wide varieties among admins, and I think that people who are admins, especially those who have been admins a long time often miss some of the worse parts of it. Like I said, I found and still do find the piece very funny, though I don't know I'd call it policy. I didn't under the circumstances, because I felt that I was being accused of something--not only because of the way the piece was written, but because when people abbreviate and link to policy instead of explaining, there's a lack of communication, and so I had to figure out why you were linking me there. Which then put me in the position of choosing a move and guessing what you'd do. And all of the choices seemed like BAD options--or rather, options where something could go bad, and a lot of users would probably have avoided a potential conflict with an admin and just waited it out (probably not the users who edit IAR, but still). Anyway, you were great about answering and dealing the complaints and questions in a very timely manner, and you even found my comment from a few days ago and followed up, which I really appreciate.

The point we were just trying to make is that there are bad admins, and there are ones that aren't good, and winning a fight against an admin is hard. Considering that admins do have more power than the average user, it's very helpful when they are extra careful not to step on toes etc, because a lot of times users back off of a quarrel or potential quarrel with an admin because it's not worth the time or potential damage. And there often is a vast difference in levels of experience between admins and users which is partially to blame for the communication gap. If you've been doing something forever--you don't remember what was confusing two, three, four years ago. Anyway, it's just something I think admins should take into account. Anyway, thanks for following up about this. Miss Mondegreen talk  12:15, May 23 2007 (UTC)

uni high school

Find another source other than the student newspaper, and I have no problem with the material being included. As it stands, it's negative and critical, and that needs to be carefully sourced. A student newspaper does NOT cut it for that. ⇒ SWATJester 20:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

An explanation (but I am well drawn)

It was originally a joke my friends and I had on someone's badly drawn Street Fighter fan manga. The only okay character was Charlie, so we started calling him "Well Drawn Charlie"...then they started calling me Well Drawn Charlie, and it stuck! Oh, and I always stay in the lines. Charlie 20:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing

I appreciate that you want the widest possible input on the Uni High dispute, but we discourage editors from engaging in internal spam. See WP:SPAM. It isn't good form to post a request in every possible place. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 02:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I posted at the relevant wikiprojects and at the policies. I included both ATT and V, because I've noticed that a lot of people seem to have no idea which one is policy and I'm assuming that the majority of users do not watch both talk pages.

I also personally asked the four people who have assessed or commented on a peer review lately as generally, leaving a comment at the wikiprojects yeilds little. All of these users have spent time recently reading the article, the sources and offering opinions about how to change it. The article in question has almost no contributers, few active watchers, and these four people are more familiar with the article than practically anyone else on wikipedia. They don't watch the article. If you look at the article, you'll notice that I've written almost everything that's there, and that the article recieves more vandalism than it does other writing. This was a serious attempt to get other people who are familiar with the article involved in the discussion, because I am constantly being put in an OWN position. Miss Mondegreen talk  02:32, May 24 2007 (UTC)

Everybody who canvasses has a good reason for it, but if everyone canvassed we'd be overrun with people posting requests for comments. It's been posted at AN/I, which has a wider readsership than any project. As for vandalism, that's a part of this project and particularly afflicts school articles. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 05:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

*nods* I appreciate the warning, and I am well aware of AN/I's readership, but I am also hoping that people who are familiar with the article will provide their opinions. Which is immensely difficult when I have done almost all of the writing etc, and there are very few editors who (to my knowledge) watch the article. Miss Mondegreen talk  06:03, May 24 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget to "Clean up your mess" after this is over. Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#If you have canvassed. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for doing so. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 10:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the page protection, I'll remove it if you commit to not reverting the contributions by others. I know you're just one of many, but you're the one making the request. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks--I hadn't seen those before. I'll leave personal talk page ones, and wiki project ones in the desperate hope that someone from socal will wander down and at least assess the thing (it's been months!), but there are definitely ones I need to remove. I'll do that now.

"commit to not reverting the contributions by others"? With the protection removed I'd like to change the current version to the one here. I'd been writing the section when the edit war broke out--this is the more finished version that I've been working on ever since. The current version not only removed most of the references to the high school newspaper, but also removed other references with no explanation and added fact tags for things which were sourced by definitely reliable sources (like the latimes). Would that be alright? I really hate to be waiting on people that I don't know whether or not (or when) they'll be coming back to explain, discuss, etc.

But yes, in general, I have no issue with commiting to that. My main reverts were in my debate/discussion with whisper and they weren't because of the dispute, they were because something was factually inaccurate. Miss Mondegreen talk  23:23, May 25 2007 (UTC)

A good practice to follow is "be bold, revert once, then discuss". But until things settle down it'd be better to avoid reverting. That filming article is awesome, though I'd worry that it would affect the balance of the Uni article if included in that form. Anyway, I'll let you work that out with the other editors. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, WP:BOLD was working really well until the edit war. Irnoically, because I was writing and no one was commenting on the talk page I didn't even notice the war until someone left me a comment on my talk page. I kept getting to the page when it was on the verison I'd been using, so I didn't even realize anyone else had touched it until the second or third round of reverts.

And thanks. Worried it will affect the balance how? Eventually filming will be a subpage, because filming at Uni has gone on for decades and even only including notable projects, the list will look like the alumni list easy. And I'll try and write a start article for FilmL.A., Inc sometime in the future, but for now, this is what I have. Miss Mondegreen talk  23:54, May 25 2007 (UTC)

School categories

Many thanks for commenting on the school categories. I'm replying here rather than on the categories page as it would appear that there is already a consensus for a merge and the battle has been lost. To me it makes much more sense to have a category entitled secondary schools. However, it would appear that the majority of American editors prefer the term high school and this is perhaps the reason why so many school categories have been mistakenly categorised as high schools rather than secondary schools. I suspect it's probably easier to compromise so that the categories can be understood by editors worldwide and we don't end up with separate categories developing for high schools and secondary schools as at present which depend on the preferred terminology used by the editor at that time. I understand too that in Israel secondary school is an archaic term and that high school would be the normal term used. In the UK we would use the term secondary school, and it would be quite inappropriate to classify such schools as high schools. I associate high school (perhaps mistakenly) purely with American schools. I think it would be very difficult to categorise schools by type internationally simply because there are so many different types of secondary school, many of which are exclusive to one specific country. UK schools are already categorised into grammar schools, comprehensive schools, specialist schools, city academies, private schools, etc (but note no high schools, though we do have a few middle schools and we have primary schools whereas the US has elementary schools). However, I don't think that any of the UK school types are used elsewhere in the world. Our grammar schools are roughly equivalent to the gymnasiums in many European countries (ie, schools catering for the academic high-flyers). I believe our comprehensive schools are roughly equivalent to US high schools (ie schools catering for the full ability range) but none of the schools are exactly equivalent. It's probably best to stick with the existing categorisation by country. The secondary school/high school categories seem to be the only ones which have been adopted on an international level as far as I can establish. Dahliarose 23:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:IAR (apology)

Hi User:Mmondegreen, I by mistake edited your latest (of many) comments on WP:IAR. Sorry. (I also removed DBAD from the project page). I am new to wiki, so beyond apology, if I should do some action, please let me know. No offense was meant, I thought it was the articlepage, not the talkpage, or I wouldn't have done it. — Newbyguesses 08:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting my silly mistake; i see and concur with the consensus now, (though I do wish the user had thought more about language) cheers — Newbyguesses 09:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Welcome to Misplaced Pages!

No harm with your talk page edit. I was able to easily undo it. But, if you do realize that you've made a mistake in the future, please fix it yourself. You could have undone the edit (it was the most recent), or had another edit been made since, readded that text and made it clear in your edit summary that you were restoring a mistake you had made earlier. If someone had already replied to the comment, you could have added a reply to the comment explaining the accidental removal of text (so that people weren't upset when they responded to different stuff) and that you restored it.

On another note, I reverted your edited to the project page as well. You'll notice that my comment on the talk page comes immediately after a section on the talk page discussing Don't be a dick. The issue of the link had just been raised and it was agreed to keep it on the page. Someone had already made the same change you did earlier, discussion had started and more people may comment and consensus may change, but as of now--four editors agreed on the talk page to keep the link (five if you count my latter comment) and you ignored consensus. If you have strong opinions about the link, be sure to voice them on the talk page. Discussion about the link just started today and commenting makes a difference. Miss Mondegreen talk  09:13, May 29 2007 (UTC)

You wish the user had thought more about the language? What user? What language? Miss Mondegreen talk  09:19, May 29 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (schools) issues

A lot of controversy is starting to appear over this guideline - many people don't like the idea that every school needs location disambiguation among other things. As you were the main driving force behind this guideline I would like your help in addressing these growing concerns at Misplaced Pages Talk:Naming conventions (schools). Thanks! Camaron1 | Chris 09:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

D'oh!

Can't believe I fell for that one :) nice! >Radiant< 12:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it brill? Miss Mondegreen talk  21:21, May 29 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and the slithy toves, too. >Radiant< 08:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm tempted to change that timestamp to 4:00. Or, more blatantly, tea time. oooh! That's a fun idea in general. Course it would drive people (including me) crazy always going to see what time I'd actually commented, but it would be fun to have other sorts of times as a sig. Tea time. Late for lunch. Too early. You should be sleeping. Oh, the whimsy of me! Miss Mondegreen talk  09:14, May 30 2007 (UTC)

Block notice

You have been blocked for one nanosecond for your tendentious edit warring over Misplaced Pages:Ignore this page!!! Please ignore this block, and I don't care if you do it again. >Radiant< 08:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I may have to. I hear the Cabal is trying to change the background color to seafoam green. The injustice!

Actually though, the page may be of some real use. I think people just like edit warring on pages in Misplaced Pages namespaces and they especially like doing it at IAR where a certain sentiment is expressed. It's almost like IAR editors blow off steam at ITP so they don't have to edit war at IAR. Miss Mondegreen talk  09:04, May 31 2007 (UTC)

<sigh> some people have no sense of humor. If I create Misplaced Pages:Delete this page, do you suppose people will ignore it? >Radiant< 14:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

If they do you could list it as a paradox :) Miss Mondegreen talk  21:22, June 5 2007 (UTC)

Re: adding the naming guidelines to appropriate wikiproject pages

Done (Canada at least) and Done. After reading some of the Canada guidelines I thing they deal mostly with Country-specific issues so I Added some language to the effect of "Comply with WP:NC(S), then follow this" if you think it needs more I can make a more substantial change Adam McCormick 18:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even think of saying (location) isn't in the examples but do it anyway--that seems so simple. I did make some changes though. I removed the last section of their original instructions which handled articles with duplicate names and contradicts WP:NC(S). I also moved your instructions down to the proper section and rephrased them slightly. I think it works well now and we should do something like that for the schools and uni projects too.

I also like Canada's other naming guidelines. I know that they are just really NC(CN) stuff, but they've really isolated what things generally apply to schools and I'm wondering if we should add a section to the guideline about picking the right name.

Also, this is sorta off-topic, but I was wondering about your watching habbits. If you comment here, do you watch my talk page or do you want me to comment on your talk page, or continue the conversation here but ping your talk page? Miss Mondegreen talk  22:19, May 31 2007 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs

I appreciate your efforts to have a logical discussion on the topic of external links. In the meantime, I have some interesting news that I think is relevant. I'm not sure how to address this. Perhaps you can offer a suggestion. It would appear that Baseball Bugs is in fact an editor by the name of Wahkeenah. This is evident by this edit. I seem to remember this person having a similar attitude toward me in the past. I don't recall the specific dispute nor the circumstances surrounding it. However, it is obvious to me that Baseball Bugs (and perhaps a few of the others), are in fact either socks or just pissed off users who are upset at me editing in the style that I do. I would love to dig up specifics, but Wahkeenah's edit list is so massive it's hard to figure out where the dispute was. Thoughts? // Tecmobowl 07:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your problem is with this. First, editors can have multiple accounts, as long as they don't use them in a sock like manner. Clearly that's not the case here. Wahkeenah asked for his account to be blocked so that he could forcibly remove himself from wiki and it didn't go so good--he created a new account. But they don't overlap in editing, so I fail to see the problem. If you suspect that this editor was/is using socks either before when he was editing as Wahkeenah or now as Baseball Bugs, that's a different story.

In terms of the personal attacks, etc--well, I've already said my piece on that at the WikiProject page. I'm also well aware that your disagreement with Baseball Bugs goes much further than this one issue that I've weighed in on. I've seen some of your talk page dialogues and your recent bout at Wikiquette. (what was the point of going and continuing a content dispute there? you guys didn't ask for any sort of help at all, just bickered)

With the WP:EL issue, I think there's a straightforward guideline and I fail to see why this is such a big issue. I also btw did fail to see how your links were acceptable. Was that the right link I was directed to? Lorem Ipsum, stats and cards?

If you do think that there's a real sock issue, I'll direct you to an admin that is capable of investigating complex sock cases, but all you've shown is that Baseball Bugs has had an account for more than a few weeks. Miss Mondegreen talk  08:21, June 2 2007 (UTC)

I'm just trying to avoid senseless arguments. I am aware that people are allowed multiple accounts, my only point is that the user seems to have instigated an argument with me simply because of past interactions and is conveniently not mentioning this. Not being an admin, I have no way to check IPs or anything else, but it would not surprise me if some of the other editors are perhaps this individual. While using the Baseball Bugs name, we had a disagreement over the inclusion of some content in the Black Sox Scandal article. You can review the details of it on that talk page. He was unable to provide any reasonable source to support his claims, while I provided a reputable source that supported mine. I digress, but with regards to your claim about the link on Shoeless Joe Jackson, I'm somewhat puzzled. I think it is very appropriate considering WP:EL#Links_to_be_considered. The page is linked specifically to Jackson's page which shows a number of baseball cards that he appears on. Moreover, the site has a file repository located here that is easily navigated to and is perhaps one of the better sources of information on the players for the black sox scandal. I have reverted Baseball Bugs removal of the link for one simple reason: his explanation is that it is a site dedicated to selling baseball cards. There is a sale page there, but I don't think anyone would say that site is dedicated to selling products. I also opened a discussion on that talk page and have yet to hear from anyone on the issue. //Tecmobowl 08:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I dropped the Wahkeenah account and switched to this new one. I had way too many watch-pages on the old one, and I was spending most of my time reverting vandalism instead of editing, and it was driving me nuts. After one petty argument too many (i.e. a 3-revert violation on a totally stupid topic), I decided to have the admins permanently suspend that account, and was about ready to quit altogether, but some friendly editors helped pursuade me otherwise. So I started over with this new more-appropriate ID and a way-much smaller watch list. That switcheroo is mentioned somewhere on the old user talk page. Meanwhile, I got away from this website the last couple of days, having grown weary (again) of trying to deal with my-way-or-the-highway types (like the one on the Apollo hoax page that a number of us battled for many weeks before he was finally blocked, although he was several orders of magnitude worse than any other user I've ever run into). I don't recall having even heard of this Tecmobowl user until the Black Sox Scandal question came up, and I also don't recall if that started under my old ID or not. Be that as it may, I'm now trying to keep any direct interaction with that user to a minimum. And I don't do sockpuppets. I first edited via an IP address in late winter or early spring of 2005, then soon created an ID, then switched sometime last month. The old account still has a page, but it's dead as a user ID, as noted by Miss Mondegreen. Baseball Bugs 05:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC) and Baseball Bugs 05:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as the Shoeless Joe baseball card spam site is concerned... I no longer care. The policy against spam is evidently too vague to be enforced. Baseball Bugs 05:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of sockpuppets, ironically enough I had a lot of my time (under both old and new ID's) taken up, along with that of other editors, including Tecmobowl if I recall correctly, in trying to deal with User:Ron liebman and his endless list of sockpuppets. That kind of stuff makes me wonder why I stick with it, but I still go back to my original reason for getting into it, as an outlet for a desire to write. Baseball Bugs 05:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Now that I'm back home again, hopefully sometime soon I'll be able to watch the 2005 World Series DVD and see what they had to say, specifically / if anything, about the Black Sox scandal "curse" that was the original bone of contention between us (although I think another editor originally wrote about it, not me). But it will probably have to wait until the weekend. Baseball Bugs 05:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

To follow up on one of Miss Mondegreen's comments, while there is no overlap in time between my old and new accounts, there is an overlap of topics, obviously. Baseball Bugs 05:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Timeline: I surrendered my old user ID on May 16th and adopted this new one on the 19th. Baseball Bugs 06:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like User:PaulGS added the original section about the curse on April 23 (or maybe earlier), and also tried to re-add it several times, including in the last day or so, again reverted by Tecmobowl. Baseball Bugs 06:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Tecmobowl's interest in baseball cards probably connects with his interest in that Joe Jackson baseball card link. Baseball Bugs 06:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Nothing is jumping out at me regarding any articles in dispute between us prior to Black Sox Scandal. And it looks like the entirety of that one was under my new ID. That's not to claim it never happened. I'm just not finding it or remembering it. Baseball Bugs 06:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

One user had implied (the way I read it) that Tecmobowl's Blacksoxfan site posting in fact was a site run by Tecmobowl. I wonder if he would care to address that question? Baseball Bugs 06:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Tecmobowl was once called User:Wolverinegod, although his request for change to new ID was more sedate. Either way, I don't recall any specific dealings with either user ID prior to the Black Sox page, although it looks like we edited some common articles. Baseball Bugs 06:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

In response to MissMondegreen -> No rush. In response to BaseballBugs, this is childish. No I am not the owner of BSF, though I do personally know the owner. The site stands on its own as a resource and your claims that it exists primarily to sell things is laughable at best. You engaged me in an edit war and tried to hide behind a username change. You can contact the owner of blacksoxfan on his userid here:User_talk:Blacksoxfan. Telling me I run the site is a joke. STICK TO THE CONTENT NOT THE PEOPLE EDITING THE CONTENT!!! //10:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Bushism

Hello, you seemed like a big contributer to the Bushism page (your name is all over the talk page) and I was wondering if you would mind responding to some of the things I posted on the talk page regarding some of the "other examples." I removed some, and my edits were reverted, and I figured if I could convince you, or you convince me, things would be fixed much faster. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by P337 (talk • contribs) 13:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've made almost no changes to the article (I have made a few minor ones and version restoration). I am a big contributer to the talk page, which is a different thing entirely.

In May you left a comment or two on the talk page. One of them, you deleted. Please don't do that again. If you change your mind, or realize that you were misreading something, just strike your comment through and reply to yourself explaining that. Talk pages are records, and deletion of comments changes the records. As does changing your comment latter for example.

On June 2, only a week or so after your participation on the talk page, you removed some examples from the article with the edit summary, "bad examples". You were reverted, and then went back to the talk page.

You knew the status of consensus about these examples, and hile consensus does change, it's unlikely that it does only a week later with no new discussion or information and an edit summary that makes no argument for it. If you wanted discussion, instead of making a change, and leaving a comment on the talk page an hour and a half latter, after it had been reverted, and then tracking down the main contributers to the talk page and canvassing, you should have left the comment you did on the talk page and been patient. We watch pages for a reason. If there wasn't a response after a few days, you could have made your edit, and had an appropriate edit summary, "see comment on talk page". You wouldn't have had to track down ILike2BeAnonymous, as he would have responded to the comment at the time he reverted your edits.

In re contacting me, you didn't even wait a full day for me to see your comment and respond before asking me to comment so that one of us could hurry up and convince the other so that this could be "fixed" faster. I personally wouldn't mind your leaving me a comment asking for my input on something, I do occasionally miss things on my watchlist, though not here, I've just been living a life outside of the computer, but your comment was distinctly rude. You don't want consensus or respect the consensus that exists, you're {{WP:OWN]]ing the article. You want it to agree with your position. You don't care how, you're fully ammenable to either having your mind changed or my changing my mind, but if everyone else agrees and you don't, that's not ok.

If in the future, you are interested in consensus and you just can't get opinions on a talk page (you leave a comment and there aren't enough responses though you wait), the proper procedure is not to canvas people who have previously commented on the talk page or who are big contributers, but to file an WP:RFC.

I'm replying to your article concerns at the talk page. Miss Mondegreen talk  21:45, June 3 2007 (UTC)

I really do apologize if I seemed rude, I am new to editing wikipedia articles and am not really up on all the ways of doing things (especially about deleting my own comments, I had no idea that was a problem). I am doing my best to learn and I appreciate you giving me some tips. I will definitely try to work on the things you mentioned. It was just kind of disappointing last time when no one ever said anything but one positive response. I am sorry if it made me impatient, but I honestly didn't expect results with just posting my thoughts on the talk page. I had no reason to assume people really cared about what I was saying. I should have read here first before replying to the bushism talk page, so excuse me if it seems as I had not learned anything. Sorry for contacting some people on here. You appeared to be a bit of an authority on the talk page, and I wanted to hear your perspective. Again, I apologize if I have somehow offended you.

When I say fixed I do not mean "fix" the article, I meant just resolved I guess. I am open to the possibility that I am the only one who has it wrong. "You don't care how, you're fully ammenable to either having your mind changed or my changing my mind, but if everyone else agrees and you don't, that's not ok." That made me feel kind of bad, and confused I guess. I really am trying to approach this as unbiased as I can. I guess I don't understand what is wrong with what I was saying. I know I dont have to come to an agreement with everyone, and that's where I think you may have misunderstood my intentions. If everyone else believes one thing, and I disagree, I would be willing to accept that I had the definition wrong, and therefore I would be in agreement with it. I hope I am able to express myself correctly this time... All I ask is try to be a little more understanding of a newbie I guess. :) Thanks for the help and time. (ack I just realized I forgot to sign my first comment)P337 00:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)