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Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

A request to comment on reliability has been received at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard; I have commented at relevant subsection.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

So it seems our primary sources are enough to say that Barrett is not board certified. Please read Piotrus' comments on our sources by following the link to the relevant subsection. -- Levine2112 19:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope. This ignores the WEIGHT, BLP, OR, and NOT issues. All we've done here is shown that our previous concensus that the information is verified is indeed still verified. -- Ronz  19:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This shows that the information is verified and acceptable for insertion according to WP:RS. So that argument against insertion is moot. We have more than enough sources to insert this verified information based on the primary sources alone.

Now then, what specific issues with WEIGHT, BLP, OR, and NOT do you think there is. Please cite directly from these policies where you feel that inserting "Barrett is not Board certified" would violate. Thanks. -- Levine2112 19:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"Please cite directly" No. The reasons have been repeated over and over for you. If another editor would like a brief summary of our past discussions on these issues, I'm happy to do so since Levine2112 obviously is not going to. -- Ronz  19:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please don't be difficult here. Just list out the specific issues you have with WEIGHT, BLP, OR, and NOT. Easy. Just go one by one with each policy and then I will be able to discuss my contention with your argument, if any. For all I know, you may be spot on, but if you don't cooperatively let me know exactly what your issues are, how are we supposed to carry on a discussion here? -- Levine2112 19:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion over. -- Ronz  19:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT

This policy deals with viewpoints. That Barrett is not board certified isn't a view point. It is a verified fact. WP:WEIGHT also says: An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Barrett is a doctor and a medical critic; the topic of his board certification has been a subject in at least two lawsuits and has been mentioned in several widely read articles and reseach papers. This information has enoguh significance for at least a brief mention (i.e. Barrett is not board certified.) -- Levine2112 19:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP

This policy deals with removing unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material. This doesn't apply as we do have reliable sources to make the statement that Barrett is not board certified. -- Levine2112 21:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:OR

This policy refers to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position. That Barrett is not Board Certified is indeed a published fact that has been reliably sourced. -- Levine2112 21:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT

This policy is broad, so I am unsure what about it Ronz feels is being violating by stating that Barrett is not board certified. Previously, it had been argued that Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information (see WP:NOT#IINFO). There you will see a list of 10 kinds of information which may at times be considered "indiscriminate". None of them mention the kind of material we are dealing with.. -- Levine2112 21:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks like all these viewpoints of yours have been refuted before. See the many previous discussions. -- Ronz  16:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Just spell out your objections here. You have made a lot of arguments here but you never do back them. -- Levine2112 17:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Please refer to past discussions per WP:TALK. You might want to reread the entire article.

Please remove you never do back them since obviously I do. I'm sure you didn't actually mean such an obvious mistake on your part. -- Ronz  17:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It isn't obvious to me that you back them with explicit points from policy. If you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So please, per WP:TALK summarize your objections here or at the bottom of this page. -- Levine2112 17:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"If you did, we wouldn't be having this conversation." You're mistaken. You're overlooking past discussions. Why you insist on having this conversation is beyond me. -- Ronz  17:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Because I want to know what your arguments against inserting this material is. That is all. -- Levine2112 17:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Not relevant to his notability

http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:V#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_in_articles_about_themselves According to policy it should be relevant to their notability; or it should not be included. End of discussion. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

(First, thank you for spelling out your objection!) My response is two-fold. One, Board Certification is relevant to his notability. Barrett is a doctor and a medical critic. Therefore his medical credentials are entirely relevant. It is not as if we are talking about what his cat's name is. We are talking about a widely recognized certification in the medical community. Two, we are relying on more than just Barrett's own comments as a source. We also have the court documents which detail that Barrett is not board certified. The self-published source (Barrett's discussion at Misplaced Pages) just adds to the verifiability of this information. -- Levine2112 18:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"Therefore his medical credentials are entirely relevant." This is just an opinion that you hold along with Barrett's detractors. -- Ronz  18:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

In the medical community as a whole, Board Certification is considered a relevant credential. Barrett's detractors may think that not having Board Certification disqualifies Barrett as an expert witness or makes his opinions less qualified, but that is not what we are saying here. We are simply stating the verified fact that Barrett is not Board Certified. We are not making an argument for or against Barrett with this statement. It is neither praise nor criticism. -- Levine2112 18:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read this carefully. You have not demonstrated how the board cerification thing is relevant to his notability. It did not affect his career. It is a moot point. We cannot synthesize controversy. So, that makes your argument irrelevant. You want policy. You got policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Board Certification is relevant to Barrett's notability, but that is beside the point. The policy which you are citing (WP:SPS) referes to self-published sources. The court documents which verify that Barrett is not Board Certified are not self-published. -- Levine2112 18:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

SPS refers to Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves. The source is questionable because it does not prove notability. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"The source is questionable because it does not prove notability." Huh? That doesn't make any sense to me. Please clarify. -- Levine2112 18:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Material from self-published sources and sources of questionable reliability may be used in articles about themselves, so long as: it is relevant to their notability; You said you want policy! :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, the court documents (which verify that Barrett is not Board Certified) are not self-published sources, nor are they of questionable reliability. Thus, this policy is not applicable. -- Levine2112 19:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The source is questionable because it does not demonstrate the notability of the board thing. The key is notability as it applies to this policy. Read: it should be relevant to their notability; How is this bit of information relevant to his notability? :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that you may be misreading this policy. The source doesn't have to be relevant to the subject's notability (which it is, BTW); the content needs to be. Again, this policy referes to self-published sources and those of questionable reliability. Therefore, it doesn't apply to the two court documents as sources. -- Levine2112 19:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Biased or malicious content

Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. You like policy. Here is more policy. Have a nice day! :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again. The content (that Barrett is not Board Certified) is neither biased nor malicious. We are not dealing with a point of view here; the content is a verified fact (not an opinion). -- Levine2112 18:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The content seemed to be bias because it is pushing a point of view by his detractors. The critics are trying to run a smear campaign when the board thing is a moot point. There is no clear demonstration of relevancy to the person's notability. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Barrett is not Board Certified. This is not a point of view. This policy is not applicable to this content. -- Levine2112 18:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The detractors are trying to make something out of nothing. Synthesize controversy. This policy applies here. You said you want policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I do want policy, and I thank you for participating in this cooperative manner. I understand what the detractors are trying to do. We are not doing that here. We are simply adding content verified by a reliable source. Again, this is not a point of view; this is a fact. -- Levine2112 19:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And what are the detractors trying to do? Are you trying to do the same here? What is the difference? Nothing or something. Please clarify. Hmmm. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

All I am doing here is adding relevant and verifiable content from a reliable source. I have no other agenda. I am not here to figure out what Barrett's detractors are trying to do, but apparently it is their point of view that Barrett has tried to hide the fact that he wasn't Board Certified. That is contentious and has been directly refuted by Barrett here at Misplaced Pages. Again, I am not trying to insert these detractors' point of view (that Barrett was forced to admit that he wasn't Board Certified), but rather I am trying to insert the verifiable content that Barrett is not Board Certified. That's all. Again, this policy is not applicable because this content is neither biased nor malcious. -- Levine2112 19:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. This is official policy. You show an appearance of pushing an agenda regardless if you are or not. The key is appearance. Therefore, since it appears you are pushing an agenda (even if you are not), I insist on you providing a reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. The bar has been raised to both third party reliable sources and the clear demonstration of relevance because of your appearance of pushing an agenda (whether you are or not). :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 20:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no basis for you accusation. I am not pushing any agenda. Please read WP:AGF. What's more, the agenda which you are accusing me of pushing is not at all what I am doing. Once again, the agenda of Barrett's detractors is to push the idea that Barrett has denied/hidden his lack of Board Certification. My proposed entry does not even allude to that. Simply, I am asking to put in verifiable information that Barrett is not Board Certified. -- Levine2112 20:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The inclusion of this information appears to promote an agenda and biased viewpoint. This point been brought up many, many times in our past discussions here, but it's worth repeating. There are no assumptions of anyone's motives here, let alone accusations, only the simple observation that this information has been used to attack Barrett. -- Ronz  20:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Well said. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112, there is no accusation. It is the apprearance of pushing an agenda. I am AGF. In accordance with policy: I now insist on you providing a reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. The bar has been raised to both third party reliable sources and the clear demonstration of relevance because of your appearance of pushing an agenda (whether you are or not). :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

This policy is going to stick. Detractors have used this bit of information for their agenda. This appears to be agenda driven and I AGF. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You said you want policy. You got an ocean of policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 20:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no appearance of agenda pushing. This information doesn't promote any agenda or point of view. The agenda which you are referring to - that of Barrett's detractors - is to show that Barrett has been hiding the fact that he is not board certified; that he was reluctanct to divulge this information. Barrett's own words here at Misplaced Pages show just the opposite; he is completely open about this information and it has been available publicly for 30 years. The ocean is a desert with its life below and the perfect disguise above. -- Levine2112 22:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

There is an appearance of agenda pushing promoted by his detractors who are quick to talk about the board cerification thing which is what you continue to push for. Since there is an appearance you must comply with the above mentioned policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 16:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

First. This bit of information is bias/agenda driven because of the detractors who point to the board thing. Second. Levine2112 has certified there is an appearance of an agenda driven push because of his never ending post after post beyond exhaustion when there is no consensus. Of course, I love and am AGF. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Your argument here is that this content is malicious and biased because it supports the POV of Barrett's detractors. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the content is not a POV. Barrett is not Board Certified. This is a verifiable fact. The POV of his detractors is that Barrett was reluctant to admit that he is not Board Certified. The POV of Barrett is that he was not reluctant to admit this. We are acheiving a neutral point of view by simply stating that he is not Board Certified (and leaving out whether or not he is reluctant to say so). I think this makes it pretty clear why WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content doesn't apply in this case.

Now then, the reason why I am never-ending in my quest to have this material inserted is in fact driven by an agenda - my agenda is making Misplaced Pages the best source of information it can be. Perhaps what this comes down to for you is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -- Levine2112 17:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The key is the appearance. For example, the never ending posts. The detractors are quick to talk about the board thing. That is an agenda. This policy is valid and is on point. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid that you are misunderstanding the policy and the detractor's agenda. -- Levine2112 19:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

No consensus - only proposals - tangent

It seems like there's some confusion here when Levine2112 says, "So one way or another, at least the information that Barrett is not board certified is going into this article."

I disagree. There's no consensus that this information will go into the article, and no reason to think at this point that it will. -- Ronz  19:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

For months now, you have been arguing that we don't have reliable sources. It turns out we do. I am just asking you to keep an open mind to the possibility that you may be wrong about other policies as well. I am certainly doing the same, meaning that I am totally willing to accept that I may be wrong about policy as well. Thank you. -- Levine2112 19:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope. "For months now, you have been arguing that we don't have reliable sources." I've made no such statement. It appears you've overlooked what I actually said and the context in which I said it. Please go back through my previous comments and notice the what I really said and the context. Please don't use your mistakes in reading what others have written as justification for accusing them of being wrong. -- Ronz  19:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No consensus - only proposals - back on topic

I'm repeating my previous post since the previous discussion got off topic. -- Ronz  20:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems like there's some confusion here when Levine2112 says, "So one way or another, at least the information that Barrett is not board certified is going into this article."

I disagree. There's no consensus that this information will go into the article, and no reason to think at this point that it will. -- Ronz  19:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It has been confirmed that we have reliable sources stated that Barrett is indeed not Board Certified. If you have other issues with inserting this information, please elaborate. Bear in mind that your previous contentions hinge on having a reliable source. Now that we have confirmed having several reliable sources, I am not sure that your contentions still apply. Please describe them so we can have a civil discussion and please continue to assume good faith with me here. -- Levine2112 20:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"Bear in mind that your previous contentions hinge on having a reliable source" No, my previous comments did not. Please stop framing my perspective this way. See the many, many previous discussions. -- Ronz  21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:Weight, WP:BLP, and WP:OR all hinge on having no sources or sources of questionable reliability. Now that we have confirmed that we have reliable sources, your orignal arguments might not hold water. Please take the time to relist your arguments that you believe still apply. Your cooperation will be most helpful for all parties here. Thank you. -- Levine2112 21:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

No consensus - only proposals - again

I'm not going to repeat, but summarize: We have no consensus, only proposals. Until there is consensus, the article doesn't change. -- Ronz  21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

We have no consensus based on wrong interpretation of WP:RS. Now we know for sure that we have reliable sources from the primary sources alone. This changes everything. Please restate your arguments in relation to this new discovery. Thank you. -- Levine2112 21:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"This changes everything." It changes nothing at all. We already agreed that we could verify the information. Numerous other issues prevented us from reaching consensus on what to do with that information. All this has been said many times. -- Ronz  21:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Those issues dealt with - for the most part - not being able to say that this information was verified by a reliable source. We now can say that for sure. WP:RS has been met. Therefore, I am kindly asking you to list your current arguments against inserting this information. -- Levine2112 21:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Please read this comment given to us by a very experienced Wikipedian. -- Levine2112 21:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ronz is right. Levine2112, you're also once again ignoring the fact that the burden of evidence is squarely on the shoulders of those who want to reinsert disputed material. This and other basic Misplaced Pages tenets have been explained to you very often. I think you should be more willing to accept explanations and consider opinions offered you by other (often more experienced) editors that go against your POV. You seem to have no such problem with explanations and opinions that seem to support your POV. AvB ÷ talk 21:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

First, please WP:AGF. Second, I am open to every editors opinions regardless of their experience at Misplaced Pages. Currently, the most experienced Wikipedians looking at this issue are saying that we have met the burden to insert that Barrett is not Board Certified. We have met the burden, so unless another policy can be cited which insertion of this material would violatae, I see no reason to delay. -- Levine2112 22:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"I see no reason to delay" You mean besides a lack of consensus, or are your overruling that? -- Ronz  22:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Lack of consensus is based on moot arguments, unless you have new arguments which you would like to discuss. I am open to hearing them. -- Levine2112 22:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you read Jhonson's comment? it is not necessary to support primary documents with secondary ones. If a primary document says "he is not board-certified" then that may be quoted and cited and you're done. Or how about Pitorus' comments? If there is consensus that the primary sources you have are stating he has no board certification, they are enough for it. Well? -- Levine2112 22:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"Lack of consensus is based on moot arguments" I disagree that the arguments are moot. I just think you overlooked the fact that we reached consensus long ago that the information was verifiable, and all the arguments concerning why the information still cannot be included. -- Ronz  22:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Then feel free to list out your arguments in the space I provided. Be sure to quote policy. Thanks. This sort of cooperation will certainly help resolve this matter. -- Levine2112 00:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Costs and attorneys' fees

This edit (since reverted) is a pretty good example of what can go wrong when lay persons start interpreting primary sources. The Bolen site is further illustration of such misunderstandings and hyping. I would say this info belongs in the article, but let's just wait for a reliable source to comment on this. Edit warring is not going to help. I think this will make it into the article before the deadline. AvB ÷ talk 21:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. To clarify, we need a reliable secondary source to determine WEIGHT. -- Ronz  21:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Nowhere in WP:WEIGHT does it mention a need to have a reliable secondary source. Again, we are not dealing with a minority view but rather a verifiable fact. In terms of verifiable fact, WEIGHT says to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. $433,715.93 is certainly significant. But I do agree with AvB. If we - as lay persons - are misinterpreting what the primary source is saying, then we should have it restated correctly by someone "in the know". -- Levine2112 21:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Ronz is right, once again. And you're once again misrepresenting my words. In fact I am "in the know", that's why I can state that the reverted info was missing the point entirely. You seem to misunderstand WP:NOR (and even worse, your comments imply that I misunderstand it). As we've explained to you a number of times, we need secondary sources to interpret e.g. legalese for us. We're not allowed to publish our own interpretations here. For one thing, to whom would you want to attribute them? AvB ÷ talk 21:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

How am I misunderstanding WP:NOR here and how am I implying that you misunderstand it? Please WP:AGF.

Explained above. Rephrasing: we should have it restated correctly by someone "in the know" - this violates WP:NOR as explained in the policy. Hint: "interpretive". In fact I'm having a hard time assuming good faith with you any longer. You seem intelligent enough, yet you act as if you do not understand what others are writing when you don't agree. You seem to understand others well enough when they seem to agree with you. In the latter case you do not require the same explanations for the same things over and over again. AvB ÷ talk 22:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The primary source here is sufficient to report on this information. We don't need a secondary source to interpret the legalese any more than restating any other information from a primary source. In fact, we describe several court cases and their outcomes using similar sources. Perhaps - in this case - it would be just easier to quote the source rather than risk misinterpreting in our attempts to summarize the ruling. What do you think of that solution?

Oh, if you are in the know then I take it you have some legal experience. Can you tell us here what the documents are saying then? I certainly may be misinterpreting them as I am a lay person when it comes to legal matters. I am rereading the document, and it seems to apply more to Barrett v. Rosenthal than Barrett v. Clark, but the former is a child case of the latter, I believe. To me, it looks that the plaintiffs are ordered to pay award and attorney fees to Ilena. No? Please explain. -- Levine2112 22:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This is just another case of the cerfication issue. Let's take them one at a time. -- Ronz  22:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Now that it comes down to the primary sources being reliable, then I see the similarity. I think we are close to resolving the Board Certification issue and this one will probably follow in suit. -- Levine2112 22:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) Yes, I have "some" legal experience (although in a different country). No, I'm not going to interpret it for you - we can't use my interpretation anyway. Yes, we can use primary sources, within clear constraints (see the links I gave you), in some cases - and just as clearly this is not one of them. For the rest, see the relevant policies and the information you've been given regarding primary and secondary sources ad nauseam over the past two months. AvB ÷ talk 22:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe we can include this information because it's part of a story already in the article. I have a problem using Bolen's site as an intermediate source though and would at the very least require an authoritative primary source. Once we have one, I still believe we should not put in a verbatim quote since it's quite apparent that most people will misinterpret it. Misplaced Pages is not an oracle. Perhaps I am one when I say: Rosenthal is expected to be awarded reimbursement for costs and attorneys' fees at a later stage. I propose we wait for a reliable secondary source. It's a lot of money and the story will make the papers soon - or once it's been awarded to Rosenthal. AvB ÷ talk 23:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

These are the links which I used. They are the authoritative primary source. Please note that they are not from Bolen's site but rather directly from the California courts.

• http://apps.alameda.courts.ca.gov/fortecgi/fortecgi.exe?Servicename=DomainWebService&PageName=Image&ID=1&Parent=13174143&Action=19825551
• http://apps.alameda.courts.ca.gov/fortecgi/fortecgi.exe?ServiceName=DomainWebService&PageName=itree&Action=19900620

-- Levine2112 00:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a thought. If this is related to Barrett v. Rosenthal, perhaps we should just in clude it in that article instead. I am going to give it a try. -- Levine2112 05:25, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Resolution?

The consensus being formed at the Reliable Source noticeboard is that Barrett's discussion at Misplaced Pages coupled with the two court documents (v. Fonorow and v. Mercola) are indeed reliable enough to post the information that Barrett is not Board Certified. Again, we are not putting any spin on this; good or bad. This means that saying he is not Board Certified is not to be taken as praise or criticism. And yes, to a neutral person coming here to read this article, it may be viewed as praise. They might think, "Wow, look at what this guy has accomplished without being Board Certified." The point is: we don't know what a neutral reader of this article will think about this information if we present it neutrally. This is why I propose to just keep it cut-and-dry.

Stephen Barrett is not board certified.

Simple. Easy. WP:NPOV. Any objections? If so, please be specific. Otherwise, can we finally end this? -- Levine2112 16:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

See previous discussions. -- Ronz  16:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The previous discussion is "Costs and attorneys' fees" and is about an unrelated topic to this proposal. Please, if you have any objections to this proposal, please list them here. -- Levine2112 17:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Previous discussions. There have been many. You've been a part of those discussions, so there's no need to repeat them. Thanks. -- Ronz  17:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

This is no way to carry on a discussion. In light of the guidance we have received from the Reliable Source Noticeboard, we need to have you spell out your current objections. Please be cooperative and help resolve this dispute. Thank you. -- Levine2112 17:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"This is no way to carry on a discussion." I agree. -- Ronz  17:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I just want to know what your arguments against inserting this material is. That is all. -- Levine2112 17:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112 asked for comments and input on the results of the discussion on the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Please comment and that particular new development and don't make sweeping comments about "previous discussions". To repeat: please stay focused and comment on the results from the the Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. MaxPont 19:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem is not, and has never been, purely an RS question. As the analysis there only deals with the RS question, it's not relevent. There were RS that CML was sued and lost, but Jimbo unceremoneously removed that information. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

In the CML case there were only primary (though reliable sources). No secondary source had established the notability of the CML info. Here we discuss secondary sources. MaxPont 09:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. We still have the problem that (most) experienced editors here do not accept any of the sources provided so far as independent, reliable secondary sources for information on Barrett. AvB ÷ talk 10:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Not true. Most experienced editors have accepted these sources. -- Levine2112 16:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't a pure RS question. Many (if not all) of the prior arguments against inclusion hinged on not having a reliable source though. Now that the analysis has confirmed that our primary sources are indeed enough and that the secondary sources are icing on the cake (the more the merrier), I think it would be most helpful for those still opposed to insertion to relist their arguments (or introduce new ones) with relevant policies so we can move forward with this discussion cooperatively. -- Levine2112 22:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

"Icing on the cake"? "The more the merrier"? Ignoring arguments against your edits will not make those arguments go away. Secondary sources are often (and certainly in this case) a sine qua non as explained to you in the recent past. "Many (if not all) of the prior arguments against inclusion hinged on not having a reliable source"? Have you even read the arguments? This is patently untrue. You still seem to deny that other editors have explained how the unavailability of independent, reliable, secondary sources prevents us from assigning sufficient weight to quote this tidbit out of context and makes quoting it in context debatable at best, the context being hate mail and attack sites written by individuals whose statements there have been characterized by courts as "statements of opinion, not of fact". AvB ÷ talk 10:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The more the merrier comes not from me put from the very experienced editors who analyzed our sources for reliability and didn't find an issue with declaring them reliable. Have you read that analysis? (By the way, neither the Dynamic Chiropractic article nor the WCA article are hate mail, attack sites nor have been characterized as presenting "statements of opinion, not of fact". -- Levine2112 16:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Those are not the primary sources you're now relying on. From WP:BLP: Material from primary sources should be used with great care. For example, public records that include personal details such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses, as well as trial transcripts and other court records, should not be used unless cited by a reliable secondary source. Where primary-source material has first been presented by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to turn to open records to augment the secondary source, subject to the no original research policy. See also Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. AvB ÷ talk 13:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Above, the only policy currently being discussed is BLP:Biased or malicious content. This one does not apply here as the information about Barrett not being Board Certified is neither malicious nor biased. It is a verifiable fact. It is not a point of view and saying that Barrett is not Board Certified doesn't advance any agenda other than making our article more complete.

I would appreciate a frank discussion of other relevant policies. Thanks! :-) -- Levine2112 22:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this is a neutral and reliable addition. But since this concerns more than just reliability, I'd also suggest widening the discussion - ask for more comments on WP:RFC.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Our RFC has been posted in two places for some time now. Patiently waiting. . . (Anything you can do to get our RFC on the fast track?) ;-) -- Levine2112 23:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Where is the RfC posted? I'd be interested in reading it. RalphLender 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Sure. The RfCs can be found here: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Maths,_science,_and_technology and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Biographies. -- Levine2112 17:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I also added a Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Politics under the area of politics. This is a conflict with strong connections to opinion making. Editors with experience from how political conflicts are intermingled with biographies of the people involved in these conflicts can contribute with outside viewpoints. MaxPont 17:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a fantastic idea. Thanks for your commitment to help resolve this issue. -- Levine2112 17:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

'against policy and against consensus'

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Stephen_Barrett#Biased_or_malicious_content Here is one perfect example being discussed in another section above that confirms that this is against policy to add this information. Don't forget, there is no consensus to add this trivial point. We finally have a resolution on this matter. We have turned the tide. We have a flood of policy on this. We are drowned in policy. We all must comply with the waves of policy. Have a nice day! :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 16:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus to keep this information out of the article either. MaxPont 16:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

No consensus either way is still no consensus. Thanks for your kind help to resolve this matter. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 16:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

As Mr.Guru has been told several times, this policy doesn't apply for two reasons: 1) The content is neither biased nor malicious. It is a verified fact and not a point of view. 2) This policy only refers to self-published or questionably published sources. The court documents are neither self-published nor questionably published sources. -- Levine2112 16:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Biased_or_malicious_content As Levine2112 has been previously told, policy does apply in this case. There is a reason we have policy. It seems Leveine2112 dos not understand this policy. Hmmm. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Okay, spell it out for everyone here. How is saying the verifiable fact, "Barrett is not Board Certified" either biased and/or malicious? -- Levine2112 17:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have already answered this question in the precise section. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems Levine2112 has ignored we have no conensus in any direction and continues to push this matter. This gives an appearrance of pushing this point to no end. There is specific policy on this. Wikipedians should comply with policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Your argument here is that this content is malicious and biased because it supports the POV of Barrett's detractors. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the content is not a POV. Barrett is not Board Certified. This is a verifiable fact. The POV of his detractors is that Barrett was reluctant to admit that he is not Board Certified. The POV of Barrett is that he was not reluctant to admit this. We are acheiving a neutral point of view by simply stating that he is not Board Certified (and leaving out whether or not he is reluctant to say so). I think this makes it pretty clear why WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content doesn't apply in this case. -- Levine2112 17:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

(copy of policy) Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. There is an appearance of an agenda push here. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Other policies?

Please communicate clearly with us which policies you believe would be violated by inserting the verified content (that Barrett is not Board Certified). Mr.Guru has been gracious enough to share his/her thoughts on at least two policies he/she felt may be violated. I am wondering if there is anything else. I understand that you may feel reluctant to communicate thoughts which you feel you have already expressed, but in light of the expert analysis (which in a nutshell says that our primary sources are enough to state the content, and that secondary sources aren't even necessary but certainly helpful), I think it is reasonable to look at your policy contentions once again. (BTW, I have posted a request on the same noticeboard to have two of our secondary sources analyzed just in case.) I would sincerely appreciate everyone's cooperation here. Thanks! -- Levine2112 17:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Please refer to the many, many previous discussions on this topic. No new evidence or arguments have been suggested since, so repeating them would be a waste of time and disrespectful to the editors who previously took the time to discuss them. Besides, WP:BLP appears to be enough and has been discussed ad nauseum, so why bring up the other ones again? -- Ronz  17:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

BLP is broken down into several main sections. With you giving us anything specific within BLP, I would like to do cursory overview of the policy so you can see generally why I don't feel it applies.

• Reliable sources - our primary sources have been given the stamp of reliability by the RS analysis team.
• Presumption in favor of privacy - Barrett himself has come to Misplaced Pages and said that he is open with this information and in fact it's that his detractors were saying that he wasn't forthcoming with this info that was bothering him.
• Criticism - This is a verified fact not an opinion and we are not using it as criticism.

Is there something more specific in WP:BLP we can look at and see if it applies? Again, I am completely open to the possibility that there is some policy that does apply and prevents us from inserting this content. Please spell it out for us. Thanks! -- Levine2112 17:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112, I have spelled it out for you. We cannot ignore policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

(copied response from just above) Your argument here is that this content is malicious and biased because it supports the POV of Barrett's detractors. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the content is not a POV. Barrett is not Board Certified. This is a verifiable fact. The POV of his detractors is that Barrett was reluctant to admit that he is not Board Certified. The POV of Barrett is that he was not reluctant to admit this. We are acheiving a neutral point of view by simply stating that he is not Board Certified (and leaving out whether or not he is reluctant to say so). I think this makes it pretty clear why WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content doesn't apply in this case. -- Levine2112 18:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

(copy of policy) Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. There is an appearance of an agenda push here. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

What agenda am I pushing other than making the article more complete with relevant reliably sourced information? Saying that Barrett is not Board Certified doesn't push any agenda. The appearance is being created in your mind only. Perhaps for you this comes down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I am sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that in terms of making a policy argument against inclusion. -- Levine2112 18:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Levine2112 said: The appearance is being created in your mind only. Thanks for your confirmation. We are in complete agreement that there is an 'appearance' of an agenda push. You have posted and reposted and continue to post beyond exhaustion. The key is the appearance. Thanx, :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Meaning that the so-called appearance is a fantasy invented by you and doesn't exist. Please present a valid policy argument rather than continue this charade seemingly propogated because you don't like the idea of this content being added but are unable to come up with a valid reason why. -- Levine2112 18:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The key is the appearance as it applies with this policy. This is a valid Misplaced Pages policy in which you still seem to misunderstand and has been explained to you repeatedly. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It has been explained to you that this doesn't give the appearance of pushing the agenda which you are referring to. The agenda which Barrett's detractors are pushing is that Barrett is reluctant to say that he is not Board Certified. By simply stating that Barrett is not Board Certified, we are not pushing that agenda. That's really all there is to it. Is there some other agenda which you think I am pushing or was that it? -- Levine2112 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

This matter should have been resolved a long time ago. The policy still stands. I did my best to explain the policy (repeatedly) to you. There is an appearance of an agenda push. You continue to assert we should continue to work until we establish consensus. You continue to post when you know there is no consensus either way. You continue to misunderstand policy. Detractors point to the board thing about he was not certified. Since there is an 'appearance', please demonstrate using third-party sources to its relevance and notability. You have not demonstrated any relevance or notability regarding this matter and you have not submitted a single third-party reference. Hmmm. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 20:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Your failure to understand this is mindboggling. The detractors agenda is not to point to Barrett not being board certified; but rather that he was "forced to admit" this information under oath. Barrett himself has said that he is open about not being board certified and that this information has been available publicly for over thirty years. If I was pushing to have it stating (outside the scope of quoting his critics) that Barrett was forced to admit his lack of Board Certification or that he is reluctant to say that he is not Board Certified, then perhaps you would have a point by invoking this policy. But as it stand, a simple WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V statement that Barrett is not Board Certified no more furthers his detractor's agenda of claiming Barrett's reluctance than it does to further Barrett's claim that he is open with this information. (PS, I have submitted many third-party references, but according to the RS noticeboard analysis, those are only the icing on the cake - the primary sources are reliable enough to make this statement.) Now then, do you have any other policies which you would like to discuss. Again, I am open to being wrong about inclusion of this material, but with regards to WP:BLP#Biased_or_malicious_content, your claim of an agenda push on my part has been summarily debunked. -- Levine2112 20:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

From WP:BLP: Material from primary sources should be used with great care. For example, public records that include personal details such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses, as well as trial transcripts and other court records, should not be used unless cited by a reliable secondary source. Where primary-source material has first been presented by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to turn to open records to augment the secondary source, subject to the no original research policy. See also Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. AvB ÷ talk 13:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

In this case, the community's consensus demands in its (WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:ATT) policies a third-party reference, describing the relevancy and notability. Editors should read and comply with policy. Editors who ignore policy will eventually find themselves on the wrong end of a block. See:Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing Misplaced Pages:Civility Misplaced Pages:Beware of the tigers The key is for you to understand we open-arm acceptance but not blind faith. This is becoming very disruptive with your ad nauseum posts. There is a real and present appearance of an agenda driven force. Who is it? Its Levine2112! Now, please stop. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 21:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Guru, your comments have sunken into the depths of incivility. Please check your attitude. Furthermore, your argument that including the information that Barrett is not Board Certified furthers a malicious agenda is completely unfounded and the discussion on that is now over. If you have another policy which might actually apply here, please feel free to bring it up. Thanks. -- Levine2112 21:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

My comments are informative and on point. They have risen to a higher level in sticking to policy. My arguments are on the ball. Editors who continue to ignore policy will be greeted with a block. Have a nice day! :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 22:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

In spite of the incivility by Mr Guru, I will comment on the posting. There is a third party reference that establish the context and notability of the fact that Barrett is not Board Certified, by mentioning it. Stephen Barrett Loses Major Defamation Trial in Hometown Dynamic Chiropractic MaxPont 21:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, MaxPont. And the WCA article does just the same. I just don't think they are even all that necessary in this case, though. Mr. Guru's claim at agenda pushing is just wrong. Anyhow, if they do become neccessary, I have posted them to the RS noticeboard for review. -- Levine2112 22:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Both references are promotionally, driven attack sites that are against Stephen Barrett. This reconfirms the agenda driven elements at play. They have not demonstrated any relevancy or notability to the board thing, other than that of their own clear agenda. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 22:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"promotionally, driven attack sites" - that's your opinion. "They have not demonstrated any relevancy or notability" - but in fact they do. Regardless, your application of this policy has been debunked. Any other policies which you would like to bring up? -- Levine2112 23:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

You seem to have gotten it backwards. The references are useless because they are attack sites designed for their own self-interests. I would not expect anything less from these kinds of people. Believe me, pal, we all know what types of people they are. There is clearly an appearance of an agenda driven push. You continue to post after there is no consensus and have been told about those websites before. Enough is enough. Please stop. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 23:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Your bias against these publications are clear. But that remains your opinion and has no bearing on Misplaced Pages's policies whatsoever. I really feel like this is a clear-cut case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT for you. Basically, it is the weakest line of reasoning in terms of making an argument. -- Levine2112 00:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

You got it backwards, again. You are walking a fine line (be careful, don't trip) with your never ending posts here to bring up this matter when you know there is no consensus. The bias/attack sites/agenda driven is from the websites who want to attack Barrett. The detractors are quick to point to the board thing. Maybe, they need to find something more productive to do. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 01:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Levine certainly likes to post (a LOT) about one subject. Shot info 01:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Umbrella of Policy

Stephen Barrett has routinely spoken against the chiropractic profession. Thus, the sources from chiropractors are NOT regarded as third-party sources such as Anti-chiropractic groups spreading ‘stroke’ lies online(World Chiropractic Alliance) and Stephen Barrett Loses Major Defamation Trial in Hometown (Dynamic Chiropractic). There is specific Wiki policy against using the chiro sources. We cannot use these sources because they are not third-party sources. Chiros are known to be against Mr. Barrett. Moreover, it was irrelevant to his career regarding the board thing. So what is the point? There is no point to add this information, except to support (the appearance) agenda elements at play.

It appears this is pushing an agenda. I will AGF. In accordance with policy: We insist on the the use of a reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. The bar has been raised to both third party reliable sources and the clear demonstration of relevance because of your appearance of pushing an agenda (whether you are or not).

This is a flood of policy (its raining cats and dogs). Detractors (who seem to have too much free time on their hands) have used this bit of information for their agenda to synthesize controversy. This appears to be agenda driven and I AGF.

(copy of policy) Editors should be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons in biographies and elsewhere. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. There is an appearance of an agenda push here.

First. There are no third-party sources. Second, there are no references from any source demonstrating the relevance or notability in oder to comply with policy Therefore, we cannot add this tidbit in the article. Editors who ignore policy or disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point will be greeted with a block. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 22:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The interpretation of policy put forward by Mr. Guru would lead to preposterous consequences. Any news source that is critical of for example George W Bush or Hillary Clinton would be excluded as a RS on the ground that is biased. As pointed out by Levine2112 above, WP does not require a RS secondary source to be absolutely neutral. All secondary sources have an editorial profile and as a consequence some bias. MaxPont 13:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that none of Barrett's articles could be used either ;-) -- Dēmatt (chat) 14:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Not the way RS works. Sources about oneself are presumed to be reliable unless we have reason to believe otherwise (i.e. we have neutral sources saying the guy is a habitual liar such as Aleksey Vayner) However, sources which are biased must always be used carefully and per WP:BLP are not acceptable for sourcing negative information when they have clear interests against the person in question. Furthermore, it isn't at all obvious to me that these homeopathy sources are even WP:RS-compliant anyways. JoshuaZ 15:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

(The sources have very little to do with homeopathy.) I think Dematt has a point here. The web site Quackwatch (where Barrett’s articles and auto-bio can be found) was declared unreliable in an ArbCom earlier this year. I also don’t believe that JoshuaZ has support for his comment in WP:RS. Of course JoshuaZ has a point in that partisan sources are somewhat less credible. However, to define a RS is not a binary thing. There is a grey-zone. Opinion pieces and unsourced attack articles might be excluded while straightforward news articles would be included from the same source. The article in the trade magazine Dynamic Chiropractic is a regular news article. There is no requirement that a RS must be strictly neutral. New York Times is not neutral, neither is CNN or Fox News Channel, but news reported by these media are included in WP if there are no obvious ground for doubt. MaxPont 18:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

"The web site Quackwatch was declared unreliable in an ArbCom earlier this year" No it wasn't.

The RS issue has been a red herring all along. Let's drop it, as it should have been months ago.

It's the issue of the lack of reliable, non-partisan, secondary sources to address WEIGHT and BLP issues that's always, and continues, to be the the problem.

My apologies for repeating what's been written here over and over again. No disrespect meant for those who previously put considerable time and effort into making these points. -- Ronz  18:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You are correct that RS is not a black and white notion. However, the notion that a trade magazine is a reliable enough source for negative information about a person who has spent a substantial amount of time criticizing that trade (indeed, saying that the trade is complete bunk) is simply not consistent with either the spirit or letter of WP:BLP. JoshuaZ 18:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You guys may be missing the point. The RS noticeboard declared our sources reliable enough to verify that Barrett is not Board Certified. The BLP concerns - if any - will hopefully be addressed soon at the BLP noticeboard. The WEIGHT concerns carries "no weight" (forgive the lame pun) as nowhere in WP:WEIGHT does it say that in needs to be satisfied with reliable, non-partisan, secondary sources. In summary, for the statement "Barrett is not Board Certified", WP:RS is satisfied completely, WP:BLP concerns wil be addressed on that noticeboard, and WP:WEIGHT does not apply here. -- Levine2112 20:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I may be getting a bit confused. What statement precisely do you want in the article? JoshuaZ 01:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Barrett is not Board Certified. That's it. We don't even need the chiropractic news articles to verify this information. The primary sources have been deemed adequate as far as WP:RS goes. Do you still feel that there is a WP:BLP issue, JoshuaZ? If so, what specifically from WP:BLP do you feel would be in violation? -- Levine2112 02:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, if we aren't using the chiro source I don't have much of an issue with that although I still have trouble understanding why you think the information should be there other than that the chiros have used it as a point against him. JoshuaZ 14:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

JoshuaZ, I am glad that you don't have an issue with including this material. Please understand that I am including this only to make Misplaced Pages a better resource. For instance, if someone came to Misplaced Pages wondering if Stephen Barrett was Board Certified, that person could come here a find out (with content verified by Barrett himself and the court documents). Barrett has said that he is public with this information, so I don't think there is any BLP concerns. However, BLP will be addressed on the corresponding Noticeboard. Thanks for your input there! -- Levine2112 22:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The info was used in a very specific context in the primary sources. We shouldn´t take it out of that context (where it was relevant: criticism from Bolen and Barretts responses ) and insert it into Barrett's CV (where it is not relevant). Please note that Levine2112 prefers a brief mention precisely for the reason that he thinks it could go into the CV or lead for optimum effect. He is not in the least interested in getting it into the (overlong) criticism section because there the argument based on the info would be demolished by Barrett's response. Once again, a brief mention is not a compromise. It's giving more than a little bit of weight to assertions from partisan critics without giving at least the same amount of weight to Barrett´s response. AvB ÷ talk 16:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets stay focused. BLP policy states we must use third-party sources and we have no third-party references. This discussion is moot and getting tiresome. It seems Levine2112 continues to misunderstand policy, BLP, Weight, and no consensus. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 16:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

First, there is no Barrett "CV" section in this article. Second, I am not trying to put this information in the lead, but rather place it in the bio section with the rest of his education and credentials. Third, both of you please AGF. Fourth, we have presented many secondary (i.e. third-party) sources. Instead of carrying on here and making comments about who misunderstands what, let's wait to hear from editors more experienced with the policies of concern. Thanks. -- Levine2112 17:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

"his education and credentials" - that's a CV to me. By the way, a common sense argument to exclude would be that this is given more weight than e.g. the man's professional accomplishments such as the positions he has held (which are not mentioned anywhere). AvB ÷ talk 12:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You have not presented any third-party references. We cannot pretend we have third-party refrences. Thus, adding this bit of information is against BLP. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I have presented at least seven third-party references. If you have a specific BLP concern which you would like to have addressed, please take it to the BLP Noticeboard where we are awaiting comment from the contributing editors there. -- Levine2112 17:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You have supplied zero third-party references. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Then I am confused. Please define what a third-party reference is. -- Levine2112 18:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

No matter what I say you will still assert you have third-party refs when you do not. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I already explained the sources (chiro refs) do not meet BLP standards. The primary type refs are not third-party. Additionally, you have to demonstrate the relevance and notability. You continue to avoid presenting any relevance or notability. Therefore, you cannot add this information to the article against policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

"Levine." "Levine." Where are the third-party references? Please provide your evidence or it is time for YOU to piperdown. End of discussion. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 23:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

"Levine." Please respond to Guru's question by providing a list of third-party references (vanilla icing on the cake). :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 18:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Levine." I hope you did not forget. We need third-party references first. No references = no information. It is about verifiable and not truth. Remember? _-Mr. G-_02:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

No. You have forgotten that I have provided you with several. You seem to think that the WCA is a reliable source at Chiropractic. See this edit. Curious evidence. -- Levine2112 08:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

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