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missing in this article

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/3/Passover%20suicide%20bombing%20at%20Park%20Hotel%20in%20Netanya

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/855852.html

various structures have been destroyed as a result of Palestinian bombings in israel - these are not yet covered in the article. Zeq 17:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't see the relevence of the first link. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 19:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Part of a structure was demolished. but in any case there are many others examples of homes that are attcked by militants and are demolished or partly demolished. BTW. the article fail to mention that israel have stopped the pratice of demolishing homes against families of suicide bomebers. Zeq 07:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the "Criticism and responses" section does say that the practice was discontinued in 2005. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 13:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Zeq, do you not see the difference between the destruction of a house as a punitive measure and the destruction of a house by suicide bomb? Tarc 14:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This article is not just about demolitions as a punitive measure. Isarig 00:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Deletions by Isarig

Isarig removed a sourced addition with the false claim that it had been discussed on the talk page. Well, it haven't but it's never to late to start so I bring it here. It is relevant to this article as it deals with house demolitions as a way to deal with the ethnic challenge. // Liftarn

You may want this article to describe "house demolitions as a way to deal with the ethnic challenge" - but it clearly does not. As it says in the lead: "House demolition ... is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) for counter-insurgency and other security purposes". The Margalit quote is not about any of this, and this has been discussed, with your participation, in the TAlk page of this article's predecessor - House demolition. Here is a link to the relevant discussion - with your input. Your accusation that my claim that this has been discussed is false and dishonest - don't do it again. Please stop adding this irrelevant, POV-pushing quote to the article. Isarig 15:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with what you describe as "ethnic challenge" (i.e. the fact that Arabs exist) does come under "other security purposed". ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It is Liftarn who described it as an '"ethnic challenge" (perhap he'll be next on your shitlist as an "Evil Zionist"(TM)). But regardles, no, it's not. Isarig 23:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Correct, as it say "a Palestinian home without a permit is a strategic threat" thus demolishing a house because those living there has the "wrong" ethnicity is covered by "security purposes". // Liftarn

First of all , this is ICAHD's POV and phrasing, and a NPOV article shoudl not accept a partisan's claim as fact. More importantly, a "strategic threat" is not the same as "security purposes". The US faces a "strategic threat" of the Euro replacing the Dollar as the main currency for international commerce but steps that the Federal Reserve may take to remedy this would not be "security measures", would not be considered an act of the US armed forces, etc... Isarig 14:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

That is an interesting interpretation, but I've never heard it before, so unless there is a wider discussion framing it in these terms, Margalit is talking about something else which doesn't belong. Tewfik 07:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

How can you possibly interpret it that way? The quote is from a report on house demolitions so if it somehow "doesn't belong" then the framing is wrong rather than the quote. Btw, the article is about "the use of house demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" so it clearly belongs as it's about house demolitions as a part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. // Liftarn

No, the article is about a "controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces" . It is not at all about civil demolitions of houses constructed w/o permit, no matter how desperately you or ICAHD want to conflate the two. Isarig 14:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is about house demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict even if you want to narrow the scope to exclude the majority of the house demolitions. // Liftarn

No, it's not. You might want it to be, and it migh be in the future, but right now, it is not, and won't be, until consensus for such an expansion is reached here. For the thrid time, the article's lede expalins what it is about: "House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) for counter-insurgency and other security purposes in the Israeli-occupied territories. Although it is justified by the IDF as a deterrent against terrorism, its effectiveness and legality has repeatedly been questioned by human rights groups." Isarig 14:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Notice what it says in large letters above, "House demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict". // Liftarn

The scope of this article is military and security actions. Jayjg 15:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(e/c) The editorial decision to include so much material about the permit demolitions in an article that purports to be about military/counter-insurgency/security purposes is POV. As I say below, I think the easy solution is merely to expressly expand the scope of the article. nadav (talk) 14:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

See below. And demolitions based on security purposes (like that the building was built y someone with the "wrong" ethnicity) is valid. // Liftarn

Zoning and planning issues, or allegations of discrimination, belong in other articles. Jayjg 15:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

In 'which' other articles? ابو علي (Abu Ali) 17:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The Arab citizens of Israel is one such article, delaing with allegations of discrimination. Isarig 18:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Outdent:

Isarig removed a large section of the article with the comment "this article is not about demolition of houses built w/o permit by civil authorities". But Isarig does not WP:OWN this article so his opinion on what should be excluded from this article is not necessarily the last word on the matter. And his opinion here is unreasonable, as Israel routinely denies building permits to Arabs as a result the majority of buildings built in the Arab sector are built without permits. The subsequent wholesale demolition of Arab buildings by the Israeli authorities on the grounds that they have no permits is part of Israel's conflict with the Arabs living under its rule and merits inclusion in the article. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I obviously don't own the article - WP works by consensus. Get consensus for the inclusion of this material, and it stays. Fail to get consensus, and it's out. So far in addition to me, editors Jayjg, Humus sapiens and Tewfik have expressed similar objections, and nadav has called the repeated attempts to include this material "POV", so it appears that you not only don't have consensus for including this material, but a majority of editors oppose it. Isarig 22:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes I know that there are a group of Zionist editors who can always be relied on to attempt to censor anything which they feel does not paint Israel in a favourable light. This is not new. And it is not convincing. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 22:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Your repeated allegations that your edits are being reverted by group of Zionist editors censoring information, alongside blatant POV pushing edits such as this reflect badly on you. Please stop it and start contributing porductively to the project. Isarig 23:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Rename and refocus article

I suggest we rename this article "House demolition in Israel and the Palestinian territories" to get away from the POV problem. That way we can be free to discuss any demolitions we want without implicitly making the POV claim that Israel demolishes Arab homes for being threats to its national character. We would be able to include explicit discussion of this POV as well as the contrary opinions. nadav (talk) 00:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think such a name would make it unfocused. It is intended to be about house demolition in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not generally about any house demolition in a specific geographic area, i.e. it's about context, not geography. // Liftarn

Demolishing a house built without a permit is not part of the "conflict". Perhaps we should include the Israeli demolition of houses in various settlements as well? A few thousand were demolished as part of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan, and wildcat settlements are regularly destroyed as well. Jayjg 15:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Perhaps scorched earth destruction of houses also should be included. First denying building permits and then demolishing the house as part of the conflict may be included. // Liftarn

Also, Israel regularly destroys Israeli homes in every Israeli city and town, under various laughable excuses, such as "being demolished to make way for new residences" etc. We need to get the records of the various municipal offices in charge of this, to start documenting these pathetic covers for conflict demolitions. Jayjg 16:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If Israeli homes would have been demolished by the Palestinian authorities on flimsy excuses then it would have made a good addition to the article. Just find sources before you add it. Good luck. // Liftarn

Why should we limit ourselves? why should we look only at hypothetical demolitions by Palestinian authorities, when there are plentiful demolitions of Israeli homes by Israeli authorities? Isarig 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It'd be an excellent idea to rename this article, since a lot that has happened (eg demolitions in Jerusalem and the Negev) have virtually nothing to do with "conflict".

However, there is one small problem. Israel has carried out House demolitions outside it's own territory, and outside territory it occupied - is it possible to somehow include these examples too?. Here are a couple of edits I had intended to make:

===1966 Samu===

Samu was a small village (population 4,000) in Jordan (now the West Bank) which was attacked by 4,000 Israeli soldiers in jeeps, personnel carriers and five Patton tanks. They demolished 46 houses and the mosque, apparently in retaliation for the placing within Israel of a mine which had killed 3 Israeli soldiers. The Israelis waited for Jordanian troops to arrive and killed 16, including the pilot of an elderly jet. Three civilians were killed and 96 wounded. The Israeli battalion commander was killed, and ten Israeli soldiers wounded.

Special Assistant Komer wrote to President Johnson after this incident that he had told (Israeli) Ambassador Harman "fully understood Israel's problems, but that use of force was dubious at best and use of such disproportionate force--against Jordan to boot--was folly indeed. It undermined the whole US effort to maintain Jordanian stability, which was so much in Israel's own interest that Israel's action was almost incomprehensible."

For the 40th anniversary of the Six Days War, a UN observer came forward to describe what he'd experienced. Dutchman Colonel (ret.) Jan Mühren told the Dutch current affairs program Nova that Israel provoked most border incidents as part of a strategy to annex more land. He tells how Samu (indeed, the entire West Bank) had nothing to do with attacks on Israel "only western officers operated here and we did patrols". Moshe Dayan confirmed that Israel had provoked 80% of incidents preceding the 1967 Israeli attack, and the Dutch television program includes a clip of Israeli journalist Rami Tal describing the interview (the contents of which were not made public until after Dayan's death).

===1956 Qibya===

Qibya was a village in Jordan (now the West Bank). Arial Sharon, then commander of Unit 101, equipped his men with 600kgs of explosives and they blew up 45 houses with the death of 69 civilians, mostly women and children crushed in the rubble This incident was in retaliation for the killing of 3 Israelis within Israel, but no evidence the intruders had used the village was ever presented.

1. Incident at Samu Time Magazine, 25th Nov 1966. Accessed 23rd June 2007
2. Six-Day War deliberately provoked by Israel: former Dutch UN observer - text and video link to Dutch current affairs program Nova on 4th June 1967. Accessed 20 Jun 2007
3. From butcher to 'Lion' to Prime Minister of Israel. Accessed 22nd June 2007

PalestineRemembered 18:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Both incidents (Qibya, Samu) have their own WP articles (written in a much more NPOV and better refernced than your suggestion above, BTW). If the article's scope is expanded, we may include a pointer to these articles, or a "See Also" list. Isarig 22:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

They're famous mass house demolitions by the Israeli military and a quick recount of the major details is necessary in this article. Qibya, at any rate, was and is universally recognised as an atrocity. I'm not aware we give the perpetrator any "right to reply" in these cases - or can you show us examples in any other region where we do so? PalestineRemembered 13:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose the renaming of the article. The vast majority of sources addressing the topic a) treat it as part of the I/P conflict, b) describe the demolitions citing security and the demolitions citing lack of permit as part of the same phenomenon, and c) do not address odd instances of demolition of homes of Israeli Jews or Bedouin. The reliable sources have defined the parameters and the purview of the subject. Gerrymandering by Wikipedians violates WP:NPOV and WP:NOR.--G-Dett 16:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This article covers house demolitions for military purposes; I don't see the sources used here discussing it in other contexts. How did you decide that a "majority" of sources did so? Jayjg 17:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

By actually reading them instead of indulging in I-feel-lucky bluffs and guesses about their contents. The only sources of ours who do not fit my description are those that are either a) reports focusing on a specific instance (such as the Human Rights Watch report "IDF House Demolition Injures Refugees" about a demolition in Gaza), b) general sources addressing the legal context of the Israeli occupation rather than demolitions per se, or c) partisan/propaganda tracts such as Right to Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel's Wars, which don't belong here anyway because they're written by non-experts and touch only glancingly and rhetorically on the topic at hand. I'm hoping you'll self-revert; it will be a more pleasant means to an inevitable end.--G-Dett 18:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Wait, you've just listed a whole bunch of sources that don't actually refer to "demographic demolitions". Which ones specifically deal that that topic, then? Jayjg 18:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You call my idea gerrymandering, POV, and OR?! The intent of my suggestion was to make extended coverage of civil Palestinian home demolitions uncontroversially relevant to the article. And I believe you are misinformed about the Negev Bedouin land issue. nadav (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that G-Dett may be misinformed about the Negev house demolitions. 100s have been carried out recently eg , and I think the Israeli minister responsible said he wants to demolish 42,000, leaving the inhabitants with nothing. PalestineRemembered 21:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

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