| Revision as of 02:40, 30 June 2007 editDust Filter (talk | contribs)3,081 editsm Reverted 1 edit by Patiokiller identified as vandalism to last revision by Acroterion. using TW← Previous edit | Revision as of 02:41, 30 June 2007 edit undoPatiokiller (talk | contribs)5 editsm I'm an amateur deck killer myself. I have a question for you, though: Which do you find easier to kill, patios or decks?Next edit → | ||
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| '''<font color="white">W I K I B R E A K</font>'''</div><br></center> | |||
| <center>'''Due to real world issues, this user is on an indefinite wikibreak.'''</center> | |||
| <big>'''ANY USERNAME VANDALS WHO ATTACK THIS PAGE ARE LIKELY SOCKS, AND SHOULD BE BLOCKED IMMEDIATELY.'''</big> | |||
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| <tr><td colspan="2"><table style="padding: 5px; width: 100%; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA; -moz-border-radius: 6px;"><tr><td>{{User:Deckiller/header}}</td></tr></table></td></tr> | |||
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| Welcome to ]'s ]. | |||
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| '''Please sign your comments using four tildes (<code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>).''' Place comments that start a new topic at the bottom of the page and give them <nowiki>==A descriptive header==</nowiki>. If you're new to Misplaced Pages, please see ] and ]. <br>This talkpage design is based on my userpage design created primarily by ]. | |||
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| ''']''' | |||
| Please respect ], ] and ]. | |||
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| == I sincerely do not intend the disruptive, please no misinterpretations == | |||
| Sir, you objection to my commenting was unjust. I urge you with respect, please focus primary efforts towards real-world. Thank You ] 17:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Square Enix hall of fame== | |||
| Recently two users have done extremely good and labor intensive work on the ] articles and the ] articles, and perhaps we should construct a hall of fame, it might help encourage more participation in the project. ] 23:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :If it's recent work you want to praise, how about a "Stars of the Month" section on the project page ? The reason I'm saying that is that the Hall of Fame might get pretty crowded ;) ] 05:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah. Users can nominate a star of the month to make it fair. — ''']]''' 05:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Thanks Tyler :)== | |||
| {| class="messagebox standard-talk" style="border: 1px solid crimson;-moz-border-radius: 8px; padding: 4px; background-color: rosybrown;" | |||
| |align="center"|] | |||
| |align="left" width="100%"|<font face="Trebuchet MS, Sans Serif" color="white">Thanks very much for wishing me happy birthday! I had a great day - well, it could have been better, I spent all day studying for an exam! But let's concentrate on the positives, hmmm? :) My friends got me a great cake, a lot like this one, and since you've been so kind, I saved you a piece. Hope you enjoy it, and the rest of your day :) ] <small><font color="teal">]</font></small> 10:09, 21 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| Not much going out with friends until next week, unfortunately... exams still ongoing :( </font> | |||
| |} | |||
| == reWarsaw == | |||
| OK, good luck with your exams. We keep pushing the closing time back at FAR, anyhow (just closed Belgium after eight weeks). If you get a chance, you might drop a note to Sandy—mid-year blues. ] 12:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == email == | |||
| My reply to you from a while ago bounced back yesterday. Cache full? ] 02:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == pop == | |||
| Perhaps, then, you can help me to define more closely what I dislike about pop and rock—the particular ''types'', ''styles'', or ''elements''. ] 15:30, 24 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Notability (fiction) == | |||
| Wow, it's an excellent policy proposal - I deliberately interpret it as such, rather than as an essay because I endorse it on the strongest possible terms, as you can imagine. I recently had a run-in with regard to spin-of articles ], but I couldn't effectively convey my point of view which I now found concisely summarised in your draft. When are you going to move it to WP space for approval discussion? —''']''' (]) 17:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :You see, the in-universe balance problem has been bugging me for some time, but I couldn't pin-point it for all the various involved aspects (like spin-offs etc). For a while, I patiently reworded introductions to make mention of the basic fact that this character and that planet are ]al, but I now know that this is really becoming a major problem on Misplaced Pages, for all the reasons you named, like project- and reader-oriented organisation etc. It's just not enough to approach this on an per article basis (like merge/AfD), because no policy is effectively managing this, so far. I honestly hope your proposal will become an official guideline. —''']''' (]) 17:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==:WP:FICT Too book oriented, unfair to new media== | |||
| Wikibooks and will not allow content pertaining to Video Games, TV Series or other media that has not been published or is too new to warrant a University program about it. Which means that a sizable part of fiction will not be covered by this guideline, re: working with the sister projects. I liked that you added Wikia as an alternative in your original draft, Deck, but I think you should expand it a bit, i.e. mention what kind of fiction goes where. ] 00:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Aye, both a blessing and a curse ;) ] 00:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Transwiking and minor wikis == | |||
| Sigh. Was hoping to look into the tag mountain of fair use images needing tags; hopefully your proposal for WP:FICT won't completely distract from that. I have some issues with that, but I suppose I'll keep those to the main discussion thread. | |||
| The reason I'm dropping off a message here has to do with transwiking, especially the Xenosaga wiki example in your draft. On the general issue of transwiking... let me first state that if good content is inappropriate for Misplaced Pages, transwiking the material then linking to it is a good thing, as it respects that content may be good even if Misplaced Pages isn't the place for it. And an emphasis on "be sure to transwiki the article first!" before redirecting without merging quality articles is absolutely a good thing. Nevertheless... I remain unimpressed with Wikia. The better Misplaced Pages articles on fictional topics have stayed clear of speculation and kept a fine factual account, even if it's mostly in-universe. Sure, not all of them are up to that standard, but a lot of the FF project of 6 months ago seemed pretty good on that count, for example. Wikia seems closer to the horrible fanboy swamps. So I can't help but feel that this is a "ninth best" option or the like. It's better than nothing, but I'd normally much rather see the Misplaced Pages treatment of the topic (and I suppose this ties into the "where should the notability line be drawn?" issue with fiction). | |||
| As for the Xeno wiki in particular... I'm not sure it's a good example for the guideline. It doesn't seem to have caught on at all, with . A lightly trafficked Wiki is vulnerable to uncaught passerby vandalism, or, in some ways even worse, a psychotic major editor who sculpts the place into their own personal shrine. Moreover, it seems that the various articles were de-merged to individual articles. What's the point? I'm a mergist largely because that's a better presentation of information, and the lists that were re-split upon moving to the XS wikia are much worse. A quick check of the Final Fantasy wikia shows some similar splits (like the list of FF9 locations) which are meh. Wikis need a critical mass of contributors to work right; perhaps the Xeno wiki should be disbanded with the content moved to a general gaming wiki? I know there are several, but ideally just one should be picked across Misplaced Pages to be favored, with the goal of having it actually be decent. ] 00:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :I proposed a new Wikia exactly to avoid that,. It has just been accepted and Deck is co-admin ] 00:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Well, I saw that before, but you seem to be selling it as a "temporary waystation" before moving a topic to its own wiki. I think that most topics don't deserve their own personal wiki, and ideally there'd be something like only three or four general wikias gone to (one for literature, one for games, one for television, etc. And I know that some already exist.). If I misunderstood the nature of that project, then feel free to correct me, but if residence at the annex is temporary, then it's probably not an appropriate link to toss at the end of a main article should a subtopic be moved. By the way, does the annex have access to en's image files? That would get rid of a major barrier in proper transwiking- the moving of all the images. ] 01:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::It is a waystation in a way, but the original version still stays. It can still be edited, but there will probably be the restrictions of Misplaced Pages policy. We should have most of the details worked out in a few days. — ''']]''' 01:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::What he said ;) Also, literature seems to be well covered in Wikibooks and Wikisource so I see no reason for us to duplicate it in the Annex. Games, TV and other kinds of new media (Anime ?) don't have a home though, unless they get a big enough following, and even then when they get their own Wiki the editing policy and focus changes a lot, as you noticed with Xenosaga. The Annex would be a good place to keep them, as close to Misplaced Pages as possible. Of course we would add links to the specific wikis if available. ] 17:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Deck, for books and stuff that would be more at home on Wikibooks I was thinking we would accept them for a little while but suggest people to move them to the proper place ASAP. The reason for this "tolerance" is to make Annex n00b friendly, i.e. if someone ends up there we help them find a home for the content. What are your thoughts on this ? ] 17:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Sounds like a good idea (sorry I'm not responding on your talkpage, but I'm anticipating a flood of comments/suggestions/ideas, so it'll be easier to keep it organized in one place). — ''']]''' 17:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Fiction (notability) == | |||
| I have two minor ideas regarding the proposal: Do you think it'd possible to establish when article spinout are justified and when not? I'm asking with special regard to "XYZ in fiction"-type articles as spinouts of non-fiction subjects. Obviously, some are very well justified and are fully developed, like e.g. ], but are not (edit: and I'm afraid most feature only primary sources, which may be yet another issue to mention). | |||
| The second idea concerns specialised wikis like, first and foremost, ]. Is there any way to establish a rule of thumb as to when an article is more suitable there? It may e.g. help reduce the impact of ILIKEIT votes in AfDs if a guideline (preferably this one) offered some general advice on the issue. | |||
| Well, just my 2 cents. Best regards, —''']''' (]) 17:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Those are good ideas. For the last one, though, we're emphasizing ''no'' AfDs unless the info can't go anywhere or be merged. In general, though, the idea is that articles/lists that can never evolve beyond in-universe summaries should be transwikied/merged. It might need to be clarified. — ''']]''' 17:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Please disregard my AfD comment, you said what I actually wanted to say. I'd absolutely welcome that clarification. —''']''' (]) 18:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Unfortunately, people are "discussing" philosophical tangents on the mailing list instead of the rewrite proposal. Sigh. — ''']]''' 18:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Took a glance and I see what you mean. But Phil Sandifer has a point, in my opinion. Maybe the essential necessary changes could be better implemented via a WP:WAF rewrite. —''']''' (]) 19:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I would prefer a single, consolidated rule as well, but it might be impossible. With so many notability guidelines out there, it would be taken the wrong way (people would think dozens of in-universe articles are okay). If others bring it up, though, then something should probably be discussed. — ''']]''' 19:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Hmm.. isn't the most important point to emphasise the out-universe perspective as sort of a prerequisite to justify the article in the first place? The rest would then automatically follow from the attribution policy. —''']''' (]) 19:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Generally, yes, but the guideline rewrite combines the relevant points and also explains how to handle notable/non-notable topics in fiction. — ''']]''' 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::(edit conflict) What I mean is: Combining NOR/ATT with the drive for an out-universe perspective (which in turn means: real world notability) could do the job. —''']''' (]) 19:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Indeed. But people will need this written on a clear guideline page like Notability (fiction) for clarity and consistency's sake. Putting all our rules about fiction in one place could cause those problems like users unsure of what's "notable" or not (since WAF would have a lot more text on it). Separate guidelines (notability and a subarticle, the WAF manual of style) probably help clarify things. — ''']]''' 20:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::Agreed, I think I properly evaluated the respective purposes of FICT and WAF only now. As I understand it, the notability guideline should serve as a guide to establish whether a subject is in itself sufficiently notable for its own article in the first place, ideally explaining when and when not spinouts are justified, e.g. by emphasizing article size. I.e. the rule of thumb I'd prefer would be ''not'' to split when in doubt. I don't know how this could be coded into FICT, but page size may be one aspect of it. | |||
| ::::::::Regarding the emphasis on out-of-universe perspective necessary for articles that ''do'' have a notable fictional subject, I'm preparing a rewrite of the first few paragraphs of WAF and see where it goes. Your input would be most welcome (]). —''']''' (]) 15:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::So in a nutshell, the WP:FICT rewrite will still establish that notability involves having out-of-universe information (aka reliable secondary sources for fiction) and good organization, and WP:WAF will be tweaked so that it is more linked with the rewrite? — ''']]''' 15:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::The rewrite basically says that info should only be split (1) if the main page gets to long ''and'' (2) if there is sufficient out-of-universe content in the subarticle/split article to show notability. Like you said, perhaps a specific length might help lessen shades of grey. — ''']]''' 15:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| * I made a couple tweaks to the WP:FICT rewrite to establish that FICT and WAF are connected, yet different. — ''']]''' 16:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Ok, I finished my somewhat bold proposal. I also incorporated your edit to warn against stuffing articles with too much minor trivia. —''']''' (]) 17:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Cool. I made a small tweak to the lead to clarify notability. — ''']]''' 17:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Good thing. One minor issue, though: Isn't notability ''technically speaking'' the ''availability'' of reliable sources rather than their ''inclusion''? Not entirely sure, but I remember some AfD debates where this came up as an argument to keep completely unreferenced articles. —''']''' (]) 18:01, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Technically, yeah; if users can prove that such sources exist, then the topic is notable (and should be kept for a period of time), but it's good to encourage users to add them from the start. It can probably be reworded on WAF to just say "availability" since it's outlined in FICT. — ''']]''' 18:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::How about ? —''']''' (]) 18:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::Looks good. — ''']]''' 18:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Ok, what's next? Post it to WikiEN-l? —''']''' (]) 18:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Honestly, I'm done with the mailing list. They never actually read the proposals; instead, they make assumptions and force people into redundant answers. — ''']]''' 18:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's probably more fun to shoot down others' work with a sniper rifle. However, how about VP? Or we could wait for BrianSmithson's input and call it consensus .-) —''']''' (]) 18:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Btw: So may mail ''did'' get through... it gave me that waiting for approval bounce at first. —''']''' (]) 18:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Most of the established editors of fiction are generally on the same page. If Smithson approves, then we can probably implement the changes without much flak. WP:FICT, on the other hand, will take much more time. — ''']]''' 19:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Weird, seeing as it makes much more sense and the current guideline is not prepared to lead to better organisation (which is how I interpret the primary purpose of your rewriting efforts). —''']''' (]) 19:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::That, and the current guideline basically allows things that are not notable (lists of minor characters). With the rewrite, it becomes clear that it's all about true notability and organization, like you said. — ''']]''' 19:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Please take a look at my ]. —''']''' (]) 14:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == My dear Tyler == | |||
| {| style="border:2px ridge #D16587; -moz-border-radius: 15px; background:#FFDCF8; padding-left: 8px; padding-right: 8px; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 8px;" align=center | |||
| | | |||
| <div style="float: center; border: 1px solid #D16587; width: 170px;">]</div> | |||
| |style="padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 15px; font-family: Comic Sans MS, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt; text-align: center;"| | |||
| '''T'''hank you for all that you have done!<br> | |||
| '''H'''ow much love resides therein!<br> | |||
| '''A'''ll one's gifts are never gone:<br> | |||
| '''N'''ot seen, perhaps, but stored within.<br> | |||
| '''K'''indness is an inner sun.<br> | |||
| '''Y'''our unspent heart a message sends<br> | |||
| '''O'''f grace and sacrifice hard-won<br> | |||
| '''U'''pon which happiness depends!<br> | |||
| For your warm words any time I need them<br> | |||
| and for more than a year of wonderful friendship<br> | |||
| Thank you so much, dear Tyler! :) | |||
| Love,<br> | |||
| ]<br>19:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| == Hey == | |||
| ] Saw your note on Sharon's page, hope you're not feeling too stressed out. We need you around here... the sane version of you! :) Take care. ] <small><font color="teal">]</font></small> 22:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Put the mailing list in the junk! The real Misplaced Pages is much more fun :) ] <small><font color="teal">]</font></small> 23:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::Heh. Well, it's good for some stuff... asking other people's opinions... but the mudslinging rate is often high and people are less likely to control their tempers in real time, which is when it gets stressful. ] <small><font color="teal">]</font></small> 23:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Interesting, I read the proposal, looks good... we'll be in for some interesting conversations, I think :) ] <small><font color="teal">]</font></small> 00:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| {| style="vertical-align:top" | | |||
| <div id="Awardbar" class="noprint" style="border:1px solid #FFDF00; background:#fff; margin:0.5em 1em 1em 0.5em; text-align:center; padding:6px; float:left; font-size: 0.9em; width: 110px; ">This '''Defender of the Wiki Barnstar''' is presented to<br />]<br />'''<span style="font-size:1.1em;">'''Deckiller'''</span>'''<br />for his hard work,<br />his courage to stand for the best interests of Misplaced Pages and his integrity.<br />You are a model and an inspiration to us all.<br />We love you, Tyler!<span style="font-size:0.8em;"><br />]<br />23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC) </span></div> | |||
| |} | |||
| Tyler, baby, I see you're going through a rough moment yourself, and tho I haven't read the mailing list lately, I can figure it out from your explanation. I just read your guideline, and it strikes me as an excellent proposal; with your permission, I'll gladly chime in at the discussion. But please, know that many, many of us who value your excellent and hard work stand by your side; you're not, in any way, facing this alone. I know I speak for many people when I say you're one of the greatest assets our community can boast of counting on today, and no amount of silly discussion will make us change our mind. Please, if you feel like venting it all out, my emaila ddy is just a click away from here, and I promise my shoulder is just waiting for you to lean on, and my ears are ready to hear your worries and your concerns. We love you, Tyler! ] - 23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == copy-edit == | |||
| Can it wait a few days? RL work frenzy. ] 01:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Can we swap weather? == | |||
| Noting the warmth is giving you stress - I'd be happy to actually get some, you know, sunshine in Summer. To use the vernacular, over here, ]. Seriously, half of Yorkshire (where I live) is flooded. ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 01:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :95 degrees is about 33 Celsius, right? While I agree it would be torture, it'd still be nice to get warmth. Luckily, I'm not flooded. Being halfway up a river valley has its advantages :) ''']''' <sup>(])</sup> 01:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| Hi, | |||
| I am planning to submit the ] article for featured article status in a few day's time. I welcome any thoughts you have on the article before I do this. | |||
| Thanks, | |||
| ] 00:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == BTW == | |||
| I want you to know I think your goals with the whole fiction notability thing are in earnest. Please don't take my counterarguments personally -- I trust that your intentions are well placed. | |||
| However, I believe you are looking at the problem of improving Misplaced Pages the wrong way. One question to consider is this: Assume that Misplaced Pages will be around 20 years from now. How many articles will it contain if it continues to grow at current rates? What percentage will today's Misplaced Pages take up? What percentage of the edits and contributions will have been done by the editors of the first 6 years? | |||
| (For a hint, see ].) | |||
| As I've written before, my take is that you can define the quality of Misplaced Pages to be a function of both the depth of coverage (using that as shorthand for the whole specific/accurate/verifiable/sourced class of concepts) and the breadth of coverage ( i.e. not missing information). | |||
| In fact, I would think that one *should* define the quality of Misplaced Pages as a function of both. | |||
| Then the "quality" of Misplaced Pages doesn't necessarily go down when you add more material -- though the average "depth" will go down. Similarly quality doesn't necessarily go up when you make content rules more restrictive, since every day the amount of potential information to be included in Misplaced Pages increases by some completely unreasonable amount (thus the average breadth goes down). | |||
| If our goal is to consistently have the overall quality of Misplaced Pages to go up (or at least stay stable) then that allows us to recognize that we should have standards for new material, but not to the degree that they overly restrict the inflow of new material. Where that inflection point exists is of course a matter of debate, but we can break down the relevant factors: | |||
| * what is the average initial depth of included material | |||
| * what percentage of the current universe of outside knowledge is represented on Misplaced Pages | |||
| * at what rate does the depth of included material increase over time (i.e. how fast does unsourced material get sourced, grammar improved, copyright of images checked, specificity increase, etc.) | |||
| * at what rate does the universe of outside knowledge increase over time (how much news is there every day?) | |||
| Again, these are all pretty damn subjective but it gives us a guide for understanding how to consider policies or the wisdom of spending energy and time deleting ] from Misplaced Pages or merging ] into ] or ] into ] or ] into ]. --] 05:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Basically, you are saying that dealing with a guideline for fiction is not worth the time and effort, because it will not necessarily increase the overall quality? This guideline doesn't really overly restrict the inflow of new material, because it's not merged or transwikied on sight; it is given time to establish itself as noted in outside sources per the main ] guideline and ]. The topics, such as the games or movies themselves, can almost certainly establish notability; the point is to prevent the coverage from going out of balance. With this rewrite, it's more about the subarticles, not the actual works. Most non-notable works are speedied by administrators anyway; it's the subarticles that are the main target of interest (and hopefully encouraging new users to put more effort into their work by establishing notability right away). — ''']]''' 05:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::With respect to the subarticles themselves, the rewrite will still allow newcomers to drop in and edit the information. In the end, the rewrite won't even restrict a ton of these subarticles; it will just require research to show availability for reliable secondary sources, and better organization to prevent excessive details. For all we know, it might get more people active, since a well written fiction article can be enjoyable to write ''and'' provide good experience on Misplaced Pages article editing on the whole. And the rewrite is very positive about "non-notable" articles/details, and it highly encourages the information moved to a more appropriate place, and that users enjoy helping the balanced articles at Misplaced Pages and the in-universe databases at Wikia or wherever. — ''']]''' 05:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Also, it hadn't occurred to me before, but nothing prevents getting an article BACK into Misplaced Pages from a Wikia (particularly the Annex which we intend to keep close to Misplaced Pages standards). This means articles that were not ''given time'' will also be retrievable easily. Or the giving an article time might mean keeping it at Annex for a while while we dig for more references. ] 18:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == A reversion of one of your comments == | |||
| Look, I kept running into edit conflicts when I recently tried to reply to you, and in the end I got fed up with it and just cut and pasted a prior version of your comment back in as it was getting too hard to reply. It's not a nice thing to do, and I apologise. I appreciate it's hard to make arguments on Misplaced Pages at times, however, you might want to look at ]. It's better to strike through than to revise your edits. Anyway, I did what I did, and that's why, and I apologise for doing it. ] <small>] </small> 18:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| *I don't fully agree. ] seems to me to be full of what A man in black just told me was original research, looking at the references and the amount of times manuals are cited as sources. For me, if an article is in bad shape, just fix it or ignore it. I've given up on writing rules. Every time you write a rule, in a months time it has become something so far removed from what you meant it's worthless. I'd rather just write articles the best I can. I don't deny you have good intentions, I just think that about two months after your proposal is accepted that vast numbers of articles will be deleted for failing it, rather than sitting here, doing nobody any harm until they get polished into meeting your standard sometime in the future. For me, there is no ]. ] <small>] </small> 18:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| **Look, if you believe in it and think it can make a difference then keep on with it. Keep pushing it and working out where to go with it. You can certainly point to a consensus on the talk page, and my comments aside, I don't stand in the way of a consensus. You can't ever come to a decent compromise, you just have to hold your breath, jump in and hope for the best. ] <small>] </small> 20:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == wikibreak == | |||
| Hey, I hope everything turns out well. —''']''' (]) 19:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Hopefully, yes. It seemed so abrupt and since you wrote ''indefinite'', I decided to send a sincere albeit generic message of good wishes. —''']''' (]) 19:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
