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Estonian pirates AKA vikings

Hello Berig, to avoid edit warring here: how come you call Scandinavian pirates from the late 8th–11th century vikings but the similar ship-borne warriors and traders of Norsemen (literally, men from the north) who originated from another side of the Baltic sea you call pirates?

As there are also referred to Estonian vikings in the article and there are sources elsewhere that refer to 'Estonian vikings' for ex 800-1100 A.D. Raids and counter-raids by Vikings around the Baltic Sea, including by Estonian Vikings. Estonians kidnap Norwegian Queen Astrid and her son, future King Olaf Trygvesson—sell them into slavery. Estonians destroy Sweden’s main town, Sigtuna. http://www.balticsww.com/tourist/estonia/history.htm

please have the article reverted to Estonian vikings instead of Estonian pirates so that your original article can't be interpreted as a racist Scandinavian POV. Thanks!--Termer 19:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Termer, he meant that you moved the article in a wrong way - you must use Move link at the top of the page to move articles, not cut-paste method. DLX 19:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks DLX for the tech tip! Although I can't speculate on what was meant. Since ethnic issues regarding vikings have been discussed also earlier on Berig user page, I can't be certain for the reasons until Berig has confirmed it.--Termer 20:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, DLX is right that you moved the article in the wrong way. By cutting and pasting, you don't move the article's history with it. Secondly, the word "Viking" is ambiguous in English and can both mean "medieval Scandinavian" and "medieval north European pirate". On WP we strive to avoid ambiguous article names, and above all we try to make the terminology as mainstream as possible. If you want to call this article "Estonian Vikings" you have to expect the casual reader to think that is about medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia. PS, can you explain more exactly what you mean by "racist"? Are Estonians a different "race" from Scandinavians, or are you talking of "Nationalism"? Please not that personal attacks are forbidden on WP and can make you incur a block.--Berig 22:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Moving the article in the wrong way was my mistake, I apologize for that.
Regarding medieval Scandinavians living in Estonia, the ancient Swedish settlement in coastal areas and on islands of Estonia is a fact Scandinavians living in medieval Estonia is a documented fact. The fact is also that the 'Estonian pirates' used similar technology to Scandinavian vikings as described in the Chronicle of Henry of Livonia. Now, either those Estonian pirates were ethnically Finnish/Estonian or Scandinavian, is a secondary question. Most likely there were both.

Now, I have no idea why do you take anything here personally. I was referring to the way the northern pirates are called differently and I'm sorry if I exaggerated with calling this kind of approach racist. Perhaps nationalist like you suggested is more correct. Now, what are we going to do about the title? I think 'Estonian pirates' is in any way inappropriate since it refers to modern day national name of Estonia. Eistneskr by the old Norwegian sagas referrers to Finno-Ugric people like ancient Livonians and Estonians or Finns etc. 'Estonian vikings' would refer to Scandinavian style pirates that originated from what are nowadays known as Estonian islands that were perhaps both ethnically Scandinavian and/or Finno Ugric back then. I'm open to suggestions. Thanks!--Termer 00:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Notes and references

1. http://www.einst.ee/factsheets/factsheets_uus_kuju/estonian_swedes.htm

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