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Revision as of 12:49, 4 July 2007

• WT:HARM

Question about "the Jenna Bush test"

These three points are listed and a conclusion drawn:

"1. Is the information already widely known? If so, and if it has appeared in numerous mainstream news sources, then it is probably suitable to be included in the article. If the information has only appeared in a few tabloid sources, local newspapers, or websites of dubious quality, then it is not appropriate to include it.

"2. Is the information definitive and factual? Misplaced Pages is not in the business of speculation, or publishing dubious allegations, unless such allegations are notable in themselves. In particular, possibly false allegations that would harm an individual's life significantly should be avoided.

"3. Is the information essential to the subject's notability? Although Ms. Bush is notable as the daughter of a serving head of state, much of the media coverage surrounding her as an individual focuses on the underage drinking incident. As such, the information can be seen as essential to the article.

"If all of these apply, then it is reasonable for the information to be included. If none of them apply, then it should be removed, or included only in general terms."

But, this isn't clear: If all three apply, then the information should be included; if none, then it should be removed. First, "included only in general terms" is in itself not a clear guideline, but what about a case in which -- forget about the second item in the list -- either the first or the third apply but not both? This guideline doesn't help for such cases which seem at least as likely to come up as those in which either all three apply or none of the three.

Regarding the second, I suggest that if lack of either of the other two does not serve as sufficient cause to omit or delete something potentially harmful, then it should be separated from the other two and made a criterion in itself. Everything in the encyclopedia should ideally be "definitive and factual" even if it's hard to ascertain. The other two criteria notwithstanding, if something is potentially harmful to the reputation of a living individual it seems doubly important that this criterion be as absolute as possible.

I believe this guideline needs to be tightened up. Eugeneccampbell 15:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not yet a guideline, so you can edit it if you feel it needs changes. In response to your other comments, in general all three criteria should apply. The only possible exception to the second criterion is where someone is notable primarily for allegations that have been made against them, e.g. as a suspect in a crime; in such cases, it needs to be sourced to the mainstream media and clearly marked as allegations, not facts. An example might be Steven Gerald James Wright, known for being a suspect in the ongoing Ipswich murder investigations (although in such cases we need to carefully avoid writing pseudo-biographies or coatrack articles, but that's a separate issue). But you're right, I need to clear up the wording to make it less ambiguous. (Bear in mind, this essay has only existed for less than 2 days and isn't honed to perfection yet.) Walton 18:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten that section to clarify what was meant. Feel free to edit it if you feel it still doesn't make sense. Walton 18:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

information about an individual's criminal record should not be included in their Misplaced Pages article

Why? This is sourcable factual information and we are an encyclopedia not a PR company. This info will often inform about the character of the individual. 18:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right - I didn't clarify what I meant. I've rewritten that portion of the essay to clarify. Walton 18:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The notability issue is exactly what i'm against. Because what is notable is just some-ones POV. We are an encyclopedia and our job is to provide information, what crimes someone has committed is important info about that person. I agree that only SOURCES of the HIGHEST QUALITY should be used to say these covictions exist, but i think if these sources exist this information should Always be in wikipedia. 18:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No, the term "notable" isn't necessarily a POV; we have guidelines about what is notable and what isn't, namely WP:N and (for biographies) WP:BIO. Certainly, notability can be a matter of POV in borderline cases, but it's agreed that because Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, there have to be standards for what kind of information can be included. Walton 19:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes but placing that there means in all cases when information on convictions is added, the supporters of whoever will claim its not notable, thus long revert war starts. If you can find it in a high quality source then it is notable enough. This just seems a way of white washing wikipedia of information. 19:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Name of test a violation of BLP?

I think this is an excellent essay and could be very useful, but if I were Jenna Bush I wouldn't want this test named after me. To do so could publicize further her teenager goof, should this become a widely used essay or test, or should it receive mainstream news coverage. Would it be possible to rename the test and still use her situation as an example? -Jmh123 22:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're kind of missing the point... -- Ned Scott 06:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the test is a good one (if, as I noted in my query, the criteria are clarified), that Jenna Bush could be an ideal example. However, I think Ned misses the point Jmh makes about how it is titled. A less pointed name might be appropriate; the subject is, after all, about avoiding harm. How about, instead of "the Jenna Bush test" it could be renamed to "the Inclusion Test" and trust that its position in the article would make the meaning obvious. Another name might be better, just it also seems obvious that anyone who has a personal grudge against the Bushes might be delighted to see Jenna's name mentioned, again, more prominently than necessary in the context of her "teenager goof." Eugeneccampbell 15:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Both the name of the test and the rationale in the essay, not to mention the new WP:JENNA, reduce Jenna's notability to a single event and place undue emphasis on that event, thereby potentially causing her harm...in an essay and potential guideline that seeks to clarify "avoiding harm"! -Jmh123 15:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That's absurd. This isn't an article, it's just an example. The entire emphasis is on this one issue, because that is the relevant example. It is not a matter of undue weigh, because people are not coming to his page to learn about Jenna Bush. It's obvious that this is just one event in a person's life, and not in any way a summary of their life. Stop making a big deal out of nothing. -- Ned Scott 19:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I am taking about the proposed use as a guideline or policy, not the existence of the proposal on this page. -Jmh123 19:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And it still would be absurd, and everything I just said would still apply. -- Ned Scott 05:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Good proposal

Though I'll make a few minor copyedits here, I think this is an excellent proposal and pretty closely captures a standard which I believe will be acceptable to those on both sides of the issue. Seraphimblade 08:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Also added a section on pseudo-biographies and some suggestions for handling them, I think that's been the main core of the problem. Seraphimblade 08:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and I've moved your section further up the page and expanded it somewhat. Walton 11:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

As expected

Yes now we are removing sourced info, of course using the magic incantation of BLP. WHY are we removing sourced info from an encyclopedia, our job is to PROVIDE information. 12:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

True...but not. Our job is to present historically significant and notable information. I can tell you that I had baked salmon for dinner last night. That's information, but it's not appropriate information for an encyclopedia, and we certainly shouldn't go write What Seraphimblade had for dinner the night of June 29, 2007, even if there were some source that could confirm it. And since we (quite correctly, in my view) are forbidden to make original interpretations or crystal ball predictions, the way we determine if something is notable is how widely, for how long a period of time, and by how reliable of sources it has been noted. If the NYT, USA Today, and several scholars have written about something, it's very likely notable. If it takes you digging through primary records to find it, it's not notable, because it hasn't been noted! Of course, you're welcome to submit your findings to media outlets in that case. If they do subsequently note it, it may then (but only then) become notable enough to include in Misplaced Pages. Seraphimblade 13:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

"If the NYT, USA Today, and several scholars have written about something, it's very likely notable." I would have thought so too. --Maxamegalon2000 19:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"historically significant and notable information" then you will be deleting the articles on individual pokemon and all those historically significant bands, pull the other one. This whole wannabe policy is a POV warriors delight. It is based around the idea that you remove information, not a good way to build an encyclopedia. Why does "historically significant and notable information" only apply to stuff that should be in the encyclopedia, the shit always remains. 14:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I sure wouldn't mind seeing the Pokecruft gone either (and indeed, a lot of it is being merged, an action which I applaud and wholeheartedly support), but I don't see that as an issue towards "avoiding harm" per se, though I do see it as an issue with having decent inclusion/exclusion standards. However, there is not much risk that we will harm a Pokemon. When we're dealing with the biography of a living person, however, we must embrace immediatism, and demand that we get it right as of right now or not try to do it at all. Seraphimblade 14:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

"not try to do it at all" is going to have to be the answer as any page edited under this suggestion would violate a real policy WP:NPOV. You can just delete info because its not nice about someone or they might get pissed that the truth is being told about them, that clearly violates npov. 14:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The exact opposite it often true. For non-public people that are only notable for a single event, we are not able to write comprehensive biographies about them. Including only information about this single aspect of their life gives undue weight to that event so violates WP:NPOV. FloNight 18:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with FloNight here (though I don't on the whole issue). For example, let's say some political intern is caught up in a political embezzlement scandal, but that's all we really know about them. If the scandal is notable and they're a key part of the incident, we should certainly mention them in the event article, but we shouldn't present an article under their name, in which the only sourced information we can put is "John Doe was accused of involvement in the Big Bad 2008 Embezzlement Scandal." That's not a biography, and we would be violating NPOV's requirement of due weight by presenting that one incident as the sum total of that person's life. On the other hand, when a person is notable, we certainly can include negative information regarding them provided that it is already public knowledge and reliably sourced. Ted Kennedy is notable, so we include information about Chappaquiddick in his biography. Bill Clinton is notable, so we include information about the Lewinsky scandal in his biography. But those articles really are biographies, and cover far more aspects of those people's lives than involvement in one negative incident. That's the difference here. Seraphimblade 23:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! Very good examples. :-) My main concern for BLP is non-public people. Public people have so much written about them that we can almost always do a fair job of discussing the good and the bad. FloNight 11:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I think there's general consensus on that point; the difficulty is determining what constitutes a "public" vs a "non-public" individual, and it seems that the existing guidelines at WP:BIO are not always clear enough for BLP purposes. One of my main intentions with this essay (especially with WP:JENNA) was to clarify this. Walton 13:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Some thoughts

Some thoughts on the essay. First off, there might be some disagreement over what is "numerous" sources. Some may think that this goes beyond the requirement of "multiple" sources for normal material. I would change that to read in the same way that WP:V reads, so that we don't seem like we have two levels of verifiability. We should have one uniform level of verifiability for all facts. Making a new level just weakens the first.

Second, the recent fighting going on was not against the application of BLP, but the vagueness over the reasons. Saying (deleting temporarily per WP:BLP, will discuss) does not indicate why the material was removed. Either the reason for the deletion of the material or the article is stated in the edit summary, or should be discuss somewhere. The resent spree of "Deleted due to BLP" had neither, thus the outrage. It should be allowable to immediately restore material deleted due to BLP without a reason given in the edit summary or the talk page, otherwise vandals and POV pushers will try to game the system. --Rayc 18:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes the precise reason cannot be discussed openly. It isn't okay to undo a BLP deletion without consensus--that's a ticket to arbitration and (in especially egregious cases) desysopping. It is grossly inappropriate to refer to Misplaced Pages administrators as "vandals" and "POV pushers". --Tony Sidaway 11:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Rayc, although in principle I agree, I was trying (in writing this essay) to establish a fair compromise that would be acceptable to the ArbCom and to both sides in this dispute. Ideally, we would not give administrators the power to delete things off-the-cuff with vague reasons such as "per BLP". But, as the ArbCom has tacitly endorsed such actions as appropriate, I felt it was best to have a guideline to clarify exactly when this is allowable. And I strongly agree that the reason for the deletion of the material should be discussed somewhere - that's why I advocated the "two-admin rule", so that it isn't just one admin's arbitrary decision. I will rewrite parts of the essay to strengthen this. Walton 13:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Coming back to Rayc's first point, if I may. I agree that the current essay doesn't clarify potential disagreements over sources. I see potential problems with #3 ("essential to her notability") and #1. A lot of the BLP debates on "talk pages" are over media coverage--how much coverage does it take, which media are considered to be reliable, and so forth. The statement, "...much of the media coverage surrounding her as an individual focuses on the underage drinking incident" overlooks the tendency of some forms of media to sensationalize, especially about public figures (or their daughters). Should Misplaced Pages reflect that media tendency or not? Seems to me that this is a pivotal issue in the current debates over BLP. I don't think the essay provides an adequate resolution for this. #1 is also ambiguously stated. "Widely known" is a fuzzy criterion, with no objective measure. The text following attempts to clarify, but could be improved.

I don't want to edit this for fear of changing your intended meaning, but these sentences badly need a stylistic fix:

However, nonetheless, the Jenna Bush article does contain such information. As such, the Jenna Bush test can be applied to other parallel situations.

I think the Bush entry is well-chosen because it does handle BLP issues well. The simple fact of her underage drinking incident shouldn't become a coat-rack for a bio of her anymore than a bio should become a coat-rack for someone who had a video on YouTube that got a lot of hits. The Jenna Bush entry is not a coat-rack entry, and it does make a good example because it is neutrally written and does not sensationalize the incident, but the stated rationale for this still needs work. -Jmh123 16:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to edit it for writing style - I freely admit that I tend to be unnecessarily verbose. :-) As to your other point, yes, you're right that criterion 1 is ambiguous. Ordinarily I dislike using subjective terms such as "widely-known", but what I was trying to get across here is that we shouldn't publicise a piece of personal information that's only appeared in one tabloid or local newspaper; on the other hand, if something's been widely reported across mainstream media outlets, we can justify including it.

With regard to the "tendency of some forms of media to sensationalize", that is indeed an important aspect of the disputes over BLP - and that's exactly why this test is needed. Our policy is, where possible, to do no harm, but also to create a factual and balanced encyclopedia. As such, if information about someone's private life has already been reported in lurid detail by the media across several countries, it's the media who have done the "harm"; in that situation, our obligation to keep entries neutral and balanced compels us to include the information. On the other hand, if we pick up something that was reported by one cheap tabloid on a slow news day and splash it around the Internet, then we are actively doing harm. The aim of the Jenna Bush test is to differentiate between those two situations; it's subjective to some extent because this is a fairly subjective field of policy, and editors have to exercise some judgment. Walton 17:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I made these changes in an effort to clarify, but they've been reverted. The edit comment makes no sense to me. Reliable news media always give their sources for notable or potentially controversial statements. The more reliable the media, the more likely that information they provide is sourced. I think some reminder that sources must be reliable, independent, and verifiable is needed, if "we won't always know what sources NBC or CBS uses" is a serious response to the suggestion that even "widely known" information must be sourced. I also included a time period in order to eliminate the kind of recentist "event of the week" kind of coverage that is so popular these days as "entertainment" in news broadcasts. I don't think an event that is covered for a week and then forgotten should necessarily qualify. Just explaining those changes here, since they're now gone. -Jmh123 04:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I've inserted compromise wording on that point: . I agree that sources need to be from reliable mainstream media sources that meet WP:RS. As to recentism (sorry I referred to "immediatism" in the summary, I got my terms mixed up), I've inserted wording to guard against it here. Walton 09:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks--good job working those points in. The words independent or third party or verifiable are also important, because sometimes mainstream sources will simply quote another source, passing the harm buck, so to speak. I think Misplaced Pages should have a higher standard. Thanks. -Jmh123 14:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Pseudo-biographies

On the topic of pseudo-biographies and WP:HARM, I think I've found a perfect example - Lisa Michelle Lambert, an article with a current AfD. The article's not really about her, it was about a murder she was involved in - a real case of WP:COATRACK. Just the kind of thing that this essay is meant to discourage. (I was about to close that AfD as Delete, since it's expired, but having mentioned it here, I should probably leave it for someone else.) Walton 14:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Jenna Bush

I don't think Jenna Bush is a good example. Point 3 of the proposed test is "Is the information essential to the subject's notability?" and the information cited here is her under-aged drinking. While I think this information should be included in the article, I don't think it should be included as essential to her notability, because it isn't. We'd have an article about her anyway. Perhaps the test itself is flawed, either by setting the bar too high or some other reason. In general once we decide a person should have a biography, we should include all relevant public verifiable information about the person, giving each fact due weight. --Tony Sidaway 16:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Nor would it be at all accurate to describe Jenna Bush as a private individual. With her sister, she has made public appearances at Republican conventions, toured swing states during the 2004 Presidential campaign, and even appeared in Vogue with her father. There's more, but that should make my point. The proposed test is not well thought out. --Tony Sidaway 16:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Many people would argue that it is relevant to her notability, but I do see your point. Another example might also be good to just to avoid arguments that are driven by people's personal political views. -- Ned Scott 19:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

He didn't say it wasn't relevant to her notability; he said it was not essential. Two very different meanings. Please refrain from imputing openly stated rationale with hidden political meanings. Just for the record, as I am one who has opposed the naming of the example the "Jenna Bush test," I've never voted Republican in my life, and I have extreme negative feelings towards both Presidents Bush. -Jmh123 19:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

What the heck?... I wasn't talking about you or anyone else on this talk page. Obviously the arguments about the test's name are not politically driven, and I certainly have not thought they were. -- Ned Scott 05:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment about avoiding arguments that are driven by people's personal political views. -Jmh123 17:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Jmh123 correctly states that there is a distinction between an event being relevant to a person's notability and being essential to it. For instance the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart is essential to her notability because nobody would have heard of her if she hadn't been kidnapped.

Ms Bush's underaged drinking incident is of small significance but I think it should be included because we wouldn't want to airbrush significant incidents out of a person's biography. The Argentina visit, where the twins were asked to leave the country by their own embassy, is of greater importance because it involved the US Diplomatic Corps and the Secret Service, and possibly the Argentine authorities, in a very embarrassing situation. --Tony Sidaway 13:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

In essence, then, the main point you disagree with is the third Jenna criterion - "Is the information essential to the subject's notability?". I see your point here; we probably would still have an article on Jenna if it weren't for the underage drinking incident, as we do on Leo Blair and others. I will try and re-word this statement to make my meaning clearer. Walton 14:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, how's this? Walton 14:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a good start. However you still describe Jenna Bush as a private individual. This is stretching the meaning of the term "private individual" to include a person who has given interviews and photshoots in Vogue, has gone on the campaign trail as a star attraction, and has appeared in nationally screen promotionals for her father's Presidential campaigns. I don't think that's at all accurate. Jenna Bush is about as far from a private individual as it is possible for a person to be outside Hollywood. --Tony Sidaway 16:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Walton 12:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)