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Revision as of 18:47, 30 May 2005

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• Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Archive 1
• Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Archive 2
• Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Archive 3

An event mentioned in this article is a June 2 selected anniversary

Prefixed Styles

There exists no consensus for the use of prefixed styles in Misplaced Pages. The use of "Her Majesty" in the initial introduction has been opposed by a majority of those participating in a recent survey as improper POV. NPOV trumps consensus, and the repeated uses of her formal style and others of the royal family are similarly improper POV and unencyclopedic. I am therefore disputing the neutrality of this article. Whig 08:18, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

So you're saying that the whole article is biased because we make reference to the undeniable fact that she is styled "Her Majesty"? Please stop politicking, Whig, jguk 08:42, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

It's not the perfectly fine reference to the style, it is the use/endorsement of the style that introduces POV. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 09:09, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

That's rather a bugger for an encyclopaedia if by using words and phrases that exist in real life it will be interpreted as endorsing them. Along these lines WP was irretrievably pro-Bush, but also irretrievably anti-Bush too. We condone the use of words like nigger, because we choose to have an article on the subject. By having a picci of Tony Blair on Politics of the United Kingdom, we endorse his government. Je pense que vous habitez un monde des nuages. Kind regards, jguk 09:41, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I want that {{NPOVNPOV}} tag gone ASAP. That tag is an abomination that shouldn't exist, but since it does, we should do our utmost to remove it. This does not benefit our readers, which is the primary concern. Jguk, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that Whig and Lulu have no business to question the neutrality of the article? I remind you that the question is not whether these titles introduce bias, but whether you agree that Whig and Lulu believe it does. There is a dispute. Whether you consider that valid is another matter.

That said, what is the point of fighting it out over this article? For goodness sake, can we take this to another page? There has to be central discussion on this somewhere—you'd know that better than I. Are we going to dispute the neutrality of every article in which a style currently appears? That doesn't seem productive. I suggest removing all tags while this discussion is still going on, and going to a centralized place. This is the wrong battlefield. JRM · Talk 09:59, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

(after two edit conflicts)

Whig is perfectly right to say that there's no standard yet, and that the current vote on the issue is heavily against any policy of using the prefix in the first mention of the name (though it looks as though it will accept mentioning – not using – it in the first paragraph).

On the other hand, I don't really see the problem here as regard NPoV. Is the claim that there are pretenders to the throne, so we shouldn't prejudge the issue? I can see that use of the prefix can be seen as bad style for an encyclopædia (and I'm inclined to agree), but that it's PoV is more difficult to argue.

On the third hand(!), the article does read skin-crawlingly like the gushings of an obsequious journalist hoping for a gong, and I'd second the NPoV template for that reason. As there seems to be an impasse, I'll post this to RfC, and try to get some other opinions.

I've just read jguk's comment; you're confusing mention and use. We don't call Martin Luther King a nigger — we have an article that talks about the word. A photograph of a politician can't by any stretch of the imagination be said to endorse his government. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:06, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The use of the style may be against policy, but that doesn't make the article NPOV. Maltaran 10:31, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed; the problem is a policy one, not an article one. Also, these actions are far too premature.

James F. (talk) 10:42, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that "Her Majesty" is simply a job title, implying a claim of leadership in the same way "President" or even "CEO" does. No-one is calling for George Bush to be referred to as "mister". The situation is the same here. --81.178.161.218 14:30, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Other featured articles such as Queen Victoria's begin: "Her Majesty Queen Victoria (Alexandrina Victoria) (24 May 1819 – 22 January 1901) was Queen of the United Kingdom from 20 June 1837, and Empress of India from 1876 until her death." So why shouldn't Elizabeth II be styled the same? All other queen regnants have the title of HM. It's standard protocol... just like Rt. Hon. or President. - jal14 22 May 2005 ... actually 18:24, 2005 May 22 by 70.241.94.99

Yes, all queens should be treated the same way as each other. But the "need" (?) to refer to them as majesties is different from the need to refer to presidents as presidents: newspapers, etc., routinely speak of "President Tweedledum" (or just "Mrs Tweedledum", "Jemima Tweedledum" or plain "Tweedledum") but virtually never speak of "Her Majesty Queen Tweedledee" -- it's usually "Queen Tweedledee", or when particularly awestricken (?), plain "Tweedledee". -- Hoary 02:18, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

Do we really need to this right now?

We've hardly survived two weeks of voting, so please, everybody, give it a couple of days of rest. Whig and Lulu, please do something else for a while, there's lots of articles that need to be improved, and we're doing all this to improve the articles.

Jguk, please read the poll again carefully. Disregard "first choice", "second choice" and stuff like that, just read people's comments. I'm sure you can see that there is no general agreement for having articles start with styles. And please remember that the use of styles was bitterly contested from the very start.

As I suggested elsewhere, I think that the misunderstanding we have is that you think that Misplaced Pages articles should be written in formal tone, i.e. that the introduction of the article is somehow a formal introduction of the person and should be written like the person is formally introduced. As you say, styles definitely exist in the real world and with good arguments I may be persuaded that using them is not POV per se. But the formality of the introduction I find to be completely unencyclopedic. Zocky 10:11, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm puzzled at the discussion over the use of Her Majesty at the start of the article, given that whenever there is (for example) a member of the privy council we are happy to use Rt Hon, or if someone hsa been knighted Sir prefixed in front of their name. Use of "Her Majesty" is just a continuation of this custom and practice and to omit it is clearly POV. --Vamp:Willow 14:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Errr... we're not talking just about Her Majesty in this article. Rt Hons and Sirs should go, too. Zocky 17:41, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Will anyone who agrees with the current (15:02, 2005 May 15 (UTC)) NPOV tag on the article please concisely state their views below? This will hopefully prevent it from continuously being removed and reinserted because everyone thinks they know exactly what is or isn't disputed. Revert warring over a dispute tag is incredibly lame. JRM · Talk 15:02, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

If someone thinks there is an NPOV problem and tags an article then it should not be removed by someone who disagrees with the tag, because if they are disagreeing there is indeed a dispute, and until the dispute gets resolved the article should stay. Only those who think the article needs the tag should later remove it when they think the POV has been sorted (and if someone else disagrees they can replace it themselves. The fact that someone wants the POV is enough reason to have it. I will replace it myself under such circumstances regardless of my own feeelings about the neutrality of the article. The only way to sort out the POV tag is to address the issues of the person who put it there, --SqueakBox 15:12, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. So it's not unreasonable to ask the person who put it there to state what issues they have, if necessary again to humor those who think the tag is spurious. I care not either way, I do care about people playing tug-of-war over it, regardless of who is "correct" in these matters. JRM · Talk 15:07, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

Here is why I placed the NPOV tag on the top of the article. The article started with words "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary)..." The problem is with "Her Majesty". When it is in the beginning of the text, it states that it is the most important thing or the most descriptive thing about her. But I think the most important thing is that she is a queen. If she wasn't a queen, she wouldn't be Her Majesty. Period. Also, Her Majesty is somewhat value-laden word to start an article. I hope I don't have to analyse that nuance any more, but it is a reason, why I chose NPOV tag and not a cleanup tag, for example. And there has been a poll, which shows that I don't represent a tiny number of contributors. The issue was discussed in the poll pages, so people probably didn't bother to write it here again. -Hapsiainen 15:24, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the claims about the use of the title. I personally don't like its use in this (or any) article, but I don't see that that's a question of PoV. Nevertheless I support the placing of the NPoV template, for the following reasons (which I've copied from a reply I made on JRM's Talk page):

The article is wholy laudatory in content, much of it written in language that wouldn't disgrace Hello! magazine. It's difficult to see what could be less NPoV really. It's not the use of the title, which gets other editors so incensed (I agree with them about usage, but not that it's PoV), it's the article as a whole. (I've just gone through the Talk page, and I notice that my complaint has not only been made by other editors, but even with a reference to Hello!.)

I hope that that's clear now. (I've just checked, and the other person to spon the Hello! style was Refdoc .) --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:46, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

"Her Majesty" being first doesn't imply that it's the most important thing about Elizabeth II, any more than "Stephen" is the most important thing about Grover Cleveland. john k 15:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll point you to my note in the section above re use in text. We prefix names with "Sir", "Rt Hon", "Lady" etc so no reason whatsoever to *not* use "Her Majesty" here; it is accurate and NPOV! Omitting it though *is* POV. --Vamp:Willow 15:37, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll repeat my points. First, the business of the title isn't my reason for saying that the article is NPoV. Secondly, I don't like the use of honorifics in any article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:56, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll accept that may not be the only cause for discussing NPOV issues, but whether *you* like or dislike something isn't a valid issue when WP use and practice is clear. --Vamp:Willow 16:44, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

We don't actually consistently prefix names in that manner. For example, Kim Jong Il is Dear Leader Kim Jong Il, but the article mentions his style later, not as part of the initial use of his name. --Delirium 16:49, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

We shouldn't be consistent. Styles matter more in some cultures than other. It's silly to treat those differences as if they didn't exist. - Nunh-huh 17:12, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

(1) Some people see having the style prefixes as POV, others see not having them as POV. Clearly it is not a good idea to have NPOV templates on every article which begins or might begin with a style - so can we just agree not to go there on that.

Clearly, slapping NPOV templates on articles over matters so trivial is a waste of everyone's time, and really should be discouraged in some way. - Nunh-huh 23:43, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

(2) Mel, could you be more specific about what you see as being the problem with what you call the Hello! style - what is it that you want changed and what do you suggest changing it to? jguk 16:51, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

It's not really a matter of individual sentences (though stuff like "She has a strong sense of religious duty and takes seriously her Coronation Oath." makes the neutral reader wonder how we're supposed to know that, and "Although she remains reserved in public, she has been seen laughing and smiling much more than in years past, and to the shock of many she has been seen to shed tears during emotional occasions such as the memorial service at St Paul's Cathedral for those killed in the 11 September terrorist attacks and in Normandy, France for the 60th anniversary of D-Day, where, for the first time, she addressed the Canadian troops" is a bit Sylvia Krin-ish). The point is, as I've said above, that the article gives little or no indication that anyone has ever been genuinely critical of the Queen, yet many editors will know that that's extremely misleading. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:03, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, the Queen certainly has a strong Christian faith and attends Church every Sunday - though we could just say that rather than "She has a strong sense of religious duty". I presume the point is relevant as she is Head of the Church of England. I don't think anyone disputes that she takes her Coronation Oath seriously, do they? I suppose the point here is that it shows that she will not abdicate, as well as showing her strong liking for the Commonwealth. Again, no doubt it could be better worded.

I must admit I don't see a need at all for the longer quotation you give - I'm not sure what it's trying to say other than that she is human, which I don't think anyone has any doubts about either.

On criticisms, we need to be careful though. She is bound to accept the advice of her prime ministers, and so she should not be faulted for so doing. Also, republican movements tend not to make many comments about her personally (and when they do, they tend to be complementary) - we should not allow a discussion of republican politics (or indeed any politics) to seep in. That does not mean that we should not, for example, mention that she attracted some criticism in the wake of Diana's death.

In summary, I'm sure there are improvements that can be made, and that we can act constructively in improving the article - we just need to put this HM argument to one side. Kind regards, jguk 17:26, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Is the claim that she has a strong religious faith because she goes to church every Sunday, or is there some other evidence? As to taking her oath seriously, I have no idea. Is she ever in a position where there's a genuine temptation to break it, or where breaking it could be done without repercussions? You see, in another article (say Fidel Castro or Oliver North) all this would be immediately (and rightly) jumped on as assumption and speculation.

I certainly agree that, in the context of the question of NPoV, the question of the title is something of a distraction (though I still hold fairly strong views about it). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:56, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

So do I. But we ought to impart the info of her style somewhere - maybe if it appears right at the very beginning of the article we could eliminate it from the picture captions?

There's plenty of evidence about her faith - maybe you don't listen to her Christmas Messages (the only time she speaks her own mind), but they alone are evidence enough for that, and for how seriously she takes her Coronation Oath. So it's not speculation, it's from her own mouth. Kind regards, jguk 18:25, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

A lot of sensible stuff is written above; I suppose that my own opinion is close to Mel's. I (usually far removed from Britain and its royal-obsessed news media) don't know much about the Queen and it's possible that my scepticism about some of what I read results from the combination of hasty writing and my own ignorance. However, aspects of this article calling for attention seem to go far beyond the narrow one of precisely how WP refers to Mrs Windsor. Consider the various (and mostly monarchy-unrelated) oddities within, say, the single sentence: As nations have developed economically and in literacy, Queen Elizabeth has happily witnessed over the past fifty years, a gradual transformation of the British Empire into its modern successor, the Commonwealth — to me this suggests a writer curiously unaware of or uninterested in any but the first third or so of the, er, "reign". -- Hoary 03:00, 2005 May 16 (UTC)

The NPOV tag belongs here if the use of styles (as opposed to their mention) is continued. A survey has already been taken and completed, and a majority participating expressed opposition to the prefixed use of style, in all cases. The selective use of styles was defeated by every other option, except for the alternative to disregard the survey. Styles are not used for many biographical entries, and there is general opposition to adding them in the cases where they are not presently prefixed.

I am in favor of including the style of formal address in an appropriate and NPOV way — by mentioning it in the body of the article, for instance, although this is actually a compromise position, as the style could as reasonably be included in the article on the office rather than the biographical entry on the present holder of that office. In any case, including the style in the biographical entry does not rise to a NPOV dispute.

Misplaced Pages should above all try not to impart value judgments in its articles. We should not say or imply that Queen Elizabeth II is majestic, and while the proponents of prefixed style have argued that using the style does not actually mean she is, the average reader is not going to appreciate such fine points of definition as that "Her Majesty is merely a style appertaining to the Queen, having no other particular meaning." Moreover, this definition is clearly unreasonable, because the style does have a meaning in common usage. I am not saying that Elizabeth is or is not majestic. She may be very majestic indeed! But it is not for the Misplaced Pages to say so directly, rather, it is established and unalterable policy that such value-laden statements be properly attributed or rephrased neutrally, viz., "Queen Elizabeth II is formally styled Her Majesty." This latter is a statement of formal usage, it clearly and unambiguously gives the style without asserting or seeming to assert that Elizabeth is majestic.

Such prefixed styles are no less inappropriate when used throughout the body of the article. Using "His Royal Highness" to refer to Prince Charles, or other members of the royal family, etc., should be omitted. Those styles can be provided in the relevant biographical entries but not here. Moreover, this article even internally uses styles selectively, referring to non-UK heads of state and royal families, etc., without prefixed styles, and this inconsistency is further demonstration of POV bias.

Finally, and joining with the comments of many others who have stated so above, the current article is full of gushing praise for Elizabeth's humanity, the fact that she has been known to shed tears for instance is completely unencyclopedic. No one questions that she is a human being, well, at least, I hope no one would be claiming otherwise. She presumably laughs, cries, eats, sleeps and performs other bodily functions much like the rest of us. This is not necessary or appropriate for inclusion. Whig 02:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Whig, quit it with the survey. The survey on styles did not have to do directly with POV issues, and it was not conclusive anyway. I will say that I basically agree that the article is a bit gushing. john k 15:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

The article could definitely do with more balance. For better examples, it's worth looking at the articles on Elizabeth in various other languages. Most are shorter, but they are much more neutral. MacRusgail 13:17, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Page protection

It's a mistake that I've made myself, so I'm not going to get too righteous about it, but would Neutrality not edit the article while it's protected? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:08, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I take it back and apologise; Neutrality was the victim of an edit conflict. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that it's rather frustrating to see people are making edits to this article when it's protected, when people like me can't (regardless of how minor the edits are) and I'm not even involved in the edit wars or NPOV stuff. :-( ♪ Craigy ♫ 04:01, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

You are quite right to be upset. No one should be editing a protected article like this one unless those edits have been agreed on the discussion page. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:48, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Of the United Kingdom?

HM Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of the United Kingdom, but she is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, and many other countries. Perhaps it would be more NPOV if the title of this article was "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms". I don't want to change it though without some more input, so what do you think?

That's already been suggested and rejected, I'm afraid. The discussion will be in one of the archives of this talk page. Proteus (Talk) 20:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing to stop it being discussed again. It's odd that such a fuss should be made about including the fact that she's known formally as "HM", yet the inaccurate title be accepted calmly. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Inaccurate? You mean she's not Queen of the United Kingdom? Proteus (Talk) 22:43, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Do we have to go through this again? Every wikipedia article about a monarch lists only the first of several titles that that monarch held. Charles I of England, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, &c. &c. &c. john k 23:09, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Why is Queen of the United Kingdom her first title? She became Queen of Canada or Australia, for instance, at the same time.--Ibagli 01:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I strongly agree. She's not only Queen of the United Kingdom. She's the queen of the entire Commonwealth.--User:SNIyer12

(Because she's a Pom and most Australians don't want her to be Q of A. Adam 16:03, 16 May 2005 (UTC))

She became head of the whole Commonwealth at the same time, though she isn't Queen of every country in the Commonwealth. Jonathunder 01:50, 2005 May 16 (UTC)

Well, she lives in the UK, she is most associated with the UK, it is the oldest title (dating back to 1801, and being the successor to the Great British crown going back to 1707, which was the successor to the English crown going back to the 10th century)... john k 03:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

And of course there's the fact that she's also Queen of the United Kingdom by default when visiting a non-Commonwealth country. Proteus (Talk) 07:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

That's not a hard and fast rule. For instance, when in France last year, she addressed Canadian veterans as the Queen of Canada, and she has conducted duties in America as Queen of Canada too, jguk 07:41, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

That's what I meant by "by default". There has to be a special reason for her not to be Queen of the United Kingdom. Proteus (Talk) 08:36, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Any Commonwealth realm can advise Her Majesty to undertake a visit abroad as Queen of their respective nation, and she will do it. She travelled to the United States, for example, as Queen of Canada at least once, if not more. --Ibagli 02:05, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

We should really be using plain . Pcb21| Pete 08:43, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

The serious answer to this question is that in practice (whatever the constitutional theory) Elizabeth is only Queen of Canada, Australia etc by virtue of being Queen of the UK. Her claim to the throne is based on British law and flows from events in British history (the Glorious Revolution etc). There is no doubt that her status as a native, resident Queen of the UK should take precedence over the polite fictions that she is Queen of various other countries. Adam 03:11, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

She's only Queen of the U.K. by a similar polite fiction (incidentally, if I were Australian, I'd vote the republican way, but I hope I'd not do it out of the pettiest of petty nationalism). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:24, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Despite her rather insulting lack of attention to the rest of the Commonwealth realms it is plain and simple that may we like it or not she IS the queen of every country in the group. Notwithstanding the fact that her attentions are mostly in the UK she should be referred as the Queen of the Commonwealth and not of the United Kingdom. It is an insult to the other monarchies to say otherwise. Plain and simply it reads "Your form of government is superfluous and fictional". Whether she likes it or not she?s the queen of each single one of those nations and therefore she should be addressed equally. In real time politics this is mostly overlooked due to her being so deeply associated with the UK (It?s a wonder really that there haven?t been more active attempts of republicanism by the whole Commonwealth) . If Misplaced Pages wants to keep its NPOV and respectful approach the fair equal recognition of her rights as supreme monarch of each Commonwealth nation should be recognized. Even when the world doesn?t there is no reason why an encyclopaedia, an enlightened source one might say, would follow the same shameful path of irreverent snubs. It leaves a lot to say about it.Anonymous 22:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, the point of Misplaced Pages is not to choose which nation is more superior than another. The problem with "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth" is that she isn't Queen of every Commonwealth nation. "Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms might work. The fact that some people in Australia do not wish her to be Queen of Australia does not mean that she is not the Queen of Australia, although the chance exists that she may cease to be in the future. Misplaced Pages would, of course, be updated to reflect that change when, and not before, it occurs. Misplaced Pages is not a fortune teller. --Ibagli 02:05, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

It seems that it must be made clear that there is a difference between the Commonwealth of Nations and the Commonwealth Realms.

The Commonwealth of Nations is a free association of ex-British Empire colonies/dominions. Though Queen Elizabeth is the nominal head of this organization, as it was created during her reign, most Commonwealth nations have a different head of state, whether president or monarch. Upon the death of Elizabeth II, Prince Charles will not neccesarily become the next head. Who will fill that post will be decided by the Commonwealth nations. Thus, to say "Queen Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth" would be factually incorrect.

Commonwealth Realms are independent kingdoms, all part of the Commonwealth of Nations, who happen to share Elizabeth II as their sovereign. There are 16 of these, including the United Kingdom. Contrary to what was stated above, by modern constitutional law Elizabeth II is not Queen of these countries because she is Queen of the UK, but rather because the constitutions of each realm dictate that she is queen, and her heirs and successors will be the future monarchs. If any of these Realms becomes a republic, or installs a new monarchy, it will in no way affect the Queen's status in the other Realms. In essence, Elizabeth II has claim to the throne of Canada because the Canadian constitution dictates that she has this right, not the UK constitution! Even if the UK became a republic, Elizabeth II would remain Queen of Canada, Queen of Australia, Queen of Tuvalu, etc.

It is because of this that, while it is factually correct that Elizabeth II is Queen of the UK, calling her "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" is misleading. By the Statute of Westminster, the Crown, and thus the Sovereign, is shared absolutely equally amongst the 16 Realms, making no one Realm is more important than any other, and meaning the Crown has transcended even the UK. Even though the world's media most often, and many times incorrectly, refer to her as "Britain's Queen Elizabeth", this does not alter the fact that Elizabeth II is indeed Queen equally of every Commonwealth Realm.

This fact is made clear when it is considered that in her Coronation Oath Elizabeth II swore to govern not only the People of the UK, but "the Peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon, and Possessions and other Territories to any of them belonging or pertaining, according to their respective laws and customs." As well, in every Commonwealth Realm her title calls her Queen of Canada, Queen of New Zealand, etc., but also includes the words "...and Her other Realms and Territories."

Now, I can see Misplaced Pages's problem in giving her page a title-- all 16 Realm names can't be listed after her's! But, as the term "Commonwealth Realms" is a real one, and this name is given to all those countries who have Elizabeth II as their queen, I can't see why "Queen Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms" would be an inaccurate or out of place title. She has been Queen of the Commonwealth Realms since her ascention, and is most certainly now the only one of the world's monarchs to hold this position. gbambino

She's not "Queen of the Commonwealth Realms", because no such position exists. If Tony Blair were to be elected Prime Minister of every country in Europe (the ones without Prime Ministers creating the office specially for him), he'd be "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom", "Prime Minister of France", "Prime Minister of Germany", "Prime Minister of Spain", "Prime Minister of Norway", etc., but he certainly would not be "Prime Minister of Europe". Proteus (Talk) 20:03, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, there is one key difference between the Crown over the Commonwealth Realms and the hypothetical situation you describe; namely, there is only one Crown over all 16 Realms, but no one prime ministership over every country in the EU. While the Crown, and therefore the Queen, may operate as "The Queen in Right of Canada," or "The Queen in Right of the UK," there is still only one Crown shared equally amongst the Realms. Thus, Queen Elizabeth II is indeed the one Queen of all the Commonwealth Realms.

Secondly, the term "Queen of Her Realms and Territories" does exist: in each of her Realm titles. As I pointed out above, in each country she is known as "Queen of , and Her other Realms and Territories..."

If "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" is misleading, "Queen Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth" is incorrect, and "Queen Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms" is unacceptable, then the only way Misplaced Pages can resolve this issue while maintaining accuracy is to create a seperate page for her in each of her roles. Thus, there would have to be a page for "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" which would deal only with her role and history in the UK, another page for "Queen Elizabeth II of Canada" which deals only with her history and role in Canada, etc. There may even be ways to avoid repetition; for instance, the section "Early Life," "Education," etc., on the Canada page, or Australia page, could simply be a link to the same part of the UK page.

As it stands now, to have solely "Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" is incorrect, and clearly shows that the Misplaced Pages editors/contributors are deciding which Realm they see as more important than any other -- hence, POV -- when legal reality makes it clear that none of Elizabeth II's Realms is more dominant or important than any other. Misplaced Pages needs to address this undoubtable fact. gbambino

Why do Britons insist on having a Non-British Monarch?

Why does England except that a German family is the figure head of their country? Could someone explain this please? I think it should be note din this article that the Queen of Britain isn't even British by birth! 24.141.214.87

She was born in Britain, as were both her parents and all four of her grandparents. I fail to see how she could conceivably not be British. Proteus (Talk) 21:19, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The briefest of looks at European history will show that royal families formed an interlinked stratum more-or-less independent of national borders. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:18, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

You might just as well ask why the USA has so many senators, etc. who call themselves "Irish" (or any number of other nationalities). Clearly there are, in reality, no "americans" because go back more than a few generations and they were all born in another country. The present Queen was born here (in London - check the article!) and so were her parents, her children, etc, etc. ps. If you are going to troll on WP you should still post your IP so that threading is clear - it is listed in the edit history anyway, so it isn't as though we don't know. --Vamp:Willow 22:20, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The issue of the Queen's nationality is a vague one. While she was indeed born in Britain, she has a diverse heritage, indeed far more than just Germanic.

What also complicates matters is that she is the Sovereign of 16 countries. While she is a citizen of none of them, as their head of state, and the living symbol of the institution which grants all people in those countries their citizenship, she is a part of each of those nations-- thereby making her partly Australian, partly Jamaican, partly Canadian, etc.

I believe it is sufficient to say that, as such a pan-national figure, her nationality is unimportant. gbambino

We don't insist on it - it's just that sometimes, every couple of hundred years or so, we run out of royal blood and have to ship some in from abroad. Pcb21| Pete 02:05, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I think it's time to ship in some more. I volunteer to be the first American-born monarch of the United Kingdom. *dead-pan* - UtherSRG 11:49, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Huh?

Are you people actually fighting over whether to include the words "Her Majesty" in this article? ...This probing question was posed at 00:07, 2005 May 19 by 69.54.132.216

No, we're arguing about whether we should say that people call the queen "Her Majesty" or we should call her that ourselves. Zocky 15:37, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

By default of being queen she is "Her Majesty", and depending on which commonwealth country you live in, it states so in government documents (look in your passport), that of "Her Brittanic Majesty" or "Her Canadian Majesty" it a title of the head of state, which is inseparable from being queen. It is proper politic for her to be addressed as such. If the President of the USA can refer to her as "Your Majesty" surely it is acceptable for an online encyclopedia to do so.

Yes

Pathetic, isn't it.

This new section with its three-word comment was brought to you at 15:13, 2005 May 21 by 212.158.205.43

Protection

Why is this article protected? What issue is in dispute? Adam 09:12, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I think (I hope) that edit-warring is over, so I've removed the protection, and the two templates. With any luck they won't have to be replaced. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:19, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Might want to reprotect. Whig 11:56, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

We seem to be working together constructively at the moment, I'll leave the NPOV in place while we see if we can clean things up to everyone's satisfaction, but protection doesn't seem necessary right now. Whig 12:09, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

What exactly needs to be "cleaned up," in your opinion? Adam 12:13, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Please see discussion above. Irrespective of the placement of the style at first instance, there is absolutely no call to keep referring to Elizabeth II as "Her Majesty" throughout the article or use prefixed styles selectively within the entry regarding other (British) royalty (but not other royalty). This is all being addressed, and it doesn't need to be cleaned up instantaneously, I don't see cause for protection at this time but the NPOV tag should remain while things are still in process. There have been numerous other comments above regarding the general bias in favor of Elizabeth II, with reference to her "humanity" in shedding tears on occasion, etc. Again, I could try to rehash the whole litany but it is better just to read the discussion above. Whig 12:29, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I invite people on this page to resolve their differences on the talk page rather than on the article. It would be particularly ridiculous if this article had to be protected twice in a row over a three-letter dispute, would it not ? Rama 12:59, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

At the moment, there doesn't seem to be a reason to reprotect, as said above. I still maintain the prefixed style should be contextualized, but I'm leaving that be at least for the moment, and while there is still an ongoing vote to ratify a new convention (that will almost certainly fail of ratification, but leaving the foregoing survey itself as being majority opposed to prefixed styles). The fact of an NPOV dispute does not mean that we need to engage in continuous edit wars, and I'm hoping we can all continue to give that a rest for at least the next few days. At that point, I'll try to see if contextualization will be accepted or continually reverted, and if we are no closer to resolution, see what we can do to get some firm guidance from Misplaced Pages on the matter. Whig 13:14, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I hope we don't see a need for further protection. Whig has removed a large number prefixed styles - and that's probably right. We should recognise them, but not make a big deal of them - and deliberately using them on every occasion is as unnatural and as wrong as never using them on WP. The quickest and best way of disposing of the issue is to mention it right up the front when we give the formal name - it imparts knowledge, whilst not drawing undue attention to them. I think it is right that Whig has removed most of the others - but I would not want a rule that none ever go back. The Queen is often referred to as "Her Majesty", with "Her Majesty" replacing the shorter "she". We should reflect normal usage - which as I say is neither to insist upon it, nor to forbid it.

For now I hope we come to a reasonable compromise of putting the style right at the front of the article and nowhere else in it. I would not, however, support a move to ban or edit out further instances of styles creeping into the article, provided they did not go too far. Kind regards, jguk 18:57, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I am in agreement with putting the style in the introductory paragraph, although I continue to believe it should be contextualized, but I am trying to lay off the initial reference while we try to straighten out the rest of the article itself, and I'm glad that jguk has expressed general support for my efforts thus far. Unfortunately, as may not be obvious to those seeing the discussion here, Template protection has been unilaterally asserted by User:Rdsmith4 for the transcluded table of the British royal family. No protection was requested at all, nor was there discussion leading to such an action. Please see Template:British Royal Family and the relevant Talk page for discussion. Whig 03:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I think I agree with Whig and jguk on the use of styles in the text of the article. I think they should be used in lists (like the bulleted section with HM's children), but their use in running text just makes it hard to read. (We also need less bold.) Proteus (Talk) 20:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

• I agree, however, they should be used in the first mention of a person, so as to signify their status. eg mentioning the Duke of Edinburgh without the HRH in the first instance would indicate he was not a royal. Astrotrain 21:59, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate what Astrotrain is saying, really, but it is a distinctly British POV that is being conveyed by this approach, because the same "signification of status" is not given to other leaders (royal or otherwise) even within this particular article. For example take the following paragraph:

Queen Elizabeth is a descendant of the German principal house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha), which inherited the British throne after Queen Victoria (of the House of Hanover) died in 1901. She is also descended from English monarchs extending back to the House of Wessex in the 7th century, and from the Scottish royal house, the House of Stuart, which can be traced back to the 9th century. Through her great-grandmother Queen Alexandra she is descended from the Danish royal house Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, a line of the North German house of Oldenburg, one of the oldest in Europe. As a great-great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth is related to the heads of most other European royal houses. She is a cousin of Albert II of Belgium, Harald V of Norway, Juan Carlos I of Spain and Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, as well as former kings Constantine II of Greece and Michael of Romania, and is more distantly related to the former royal houses of Germany and Russia.

Note that the various stylistic flourishes are not given to Albert II of Belgium, Harald V of Norway, Juan Carlos I of Spain, Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden and others. So basically, the idea here seems to be that we ought to give "HM" and "HRH" to British royals, and deny similar styles to non-British royals. Nor are royals the only political/religious/tribal leaders having traditional styles, and we are right back into the whole "use them for everyone or no one" debate—selective use being almost uncontrovertibly POV here. It really isn't possible to use them for everyone, because many editors will revert styles on sight for numerous (i.e., American) political leaders, so we should not be using them at all, rather we should provide them contextually where and when appropriate.

In any case, and with respect to the present selective usage of styles, abbreviated or otherwise, I'm going to have to maintain the NPOV flag on the article unless this is fixed. Whig 13:06, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Would an alternate solution to the problem – preserving the informative value of the styles, without giving the appearance of endorsing them, or for using them for one country and not another – be to use them at first mention of any royal person, rather than removing them from the British ones? User:Rdsmith4/Sig 14:18, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Your suggestion parallels a compromise I offered during the style survey discussion to use prefixed styles for royals but not religious/political/tribal/other leaders, and it was pretty much opposed by everyone. The problem here is still selectivity, and a pro-royalist selectivity is still not NPOV. Plus there are many styles-advocates who want to use them for religious leaders (like "His Holiness" for Pope Benedict XVI) and for political leaders (like "The Right Honourable" for Prime Minister Tony Blair) while on the other hand editors on American political figures have generally rejected styles (like "The Honorable" for Senator Hillary Clinton). A universal convention to use them is just impracticable, and it is opposed by a majority. So then we have this selective usage going on, and it's virtually impossible to make it NPOV this way. Whig 19:09, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm not looking to create a universal convention, only to resolve the dispute on this article and get rid of the irritating NPOV tag. Royal vs. non-royal styles are not the issue here. My suggestion – that the abbreviated style be given for all royalty, but only the first time the name is mentioned – addresses Astrotrain's complaint about informative value, and your complaint about being unfair to royalty of other countries; therefore, it should be acceptable to all involved, right? User:Rdsmith4/Sig 19:25, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Agree with using styles on first mention, and for lists and templates. Astrotrain 20:28, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Astrotrain's desire to use prefixed styles notwithstanding, there remain many issues of content that have been discussed under the NPOV-dispute heading above, such as, "Elizabeth's public image has noticeably softened in recent years, particularly since the death of the Queen Mother. Although she remains reserved in public, she has been seen laughing and smiling much more than in years past, and to the shock of many she has been seen to shed tears during emotional occasions..." This whole article is still a POV mess at the moment. Whig 20:56, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Agree to an extent, see below Astrotrain 21:35, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Mess in the article

The following are a list of statements in the article, which seem to be based on gossip and speculation. I suggest these phrases are removed, or modified. As the Q never gives interviews, any idea of what she thinks is pure speculation, and best left to the tabloids.

• "she dislikes Buckingham Palace"
• "Queen Elizabeth has happily witnessed over the past fifty years, a gradual transformation of the British Empire into its modern successor, the Commonwealth"
• "Like her mother, she never forgave Edward VIII for, as she saw it, abandoning his duty, and forcing her father to become King, which she believed shortened his life by many years"
• "Elizabeth's political views are supposed to be less clear-cut (she has never said or done anything in public to reveal what they might be). She preserves cordial relations with politicians of all parties. It is believed that her favourite Prime Ministers have been Winston Churchill, Harold Macmillan and Harold Wilson. Her least favourite was undoubtedly Margaret Thatcher, whom she has said to "cordially dislike". She was thought to have very good relations with her current Prime Minister, Tony Blair, during the first years of his term in office; however, there has been mounting evidence in recent months that her relationship with Blair has hardened. She reportedly feels that he does not keep her informed well enough on affairs of state."
• "It is widely believed that Elizabeth held negative feelings towards Diana and thought that she had done immense damage to the monarchy"
• "She is particularly close to her daughter-in-law Sophie, Countess of Wessex."
• "Elizabeth has developed friendships with many foreign leaders, including Nelson Mandela, Mary Robinson and George H. W. Bush,"
• "Similarly she took the initiative when Irish President Mary Robinson began visiting Britain, by suggesting that she invite Robinson to visit her at the Palace"
• "Since becoming Queen, she spends an average of three hours every day "doing the boxes" — reading state papers sent to her from her various departments, embassies, and government offices" '

It would perhaps be better if the article covered the Queen's life as Queen in a chronological fashion. For instance it barley mentions the Silver and Golden Jubilees, the shooting during the Trooping of the Colour, the break in at the Palace, Windsor Castle fire, "annus horribilis", births of Anne, Andrew and Edward, role in the Paul Burrel trial, republicanism in Australia. Any other suggested changes? Astrotrain 21:35, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Sources for the above-

1. all biographies of her
2. Philip & Elizabeth: Portrait of a Marriage - biography with partipication of Philip by Gyles Brandreth
3. BBC
4. BBC, people who know both the Queen and Robinson.
5. very senior source who is a friend of the Queen. Information used in the media - both print (The Irish Times, the Sunday Times & broadcast (Sky News, BBC, CNN), but at personal request of the source, I cannot reveal their name. - They do have an article on Misplaced Pages and they current hold a very senior constitutional office, which is they can't be named right now. (They gave a lot of colour about the Queen - how though appearing very shy and reserved, when relaxed with friends she is a pleasure to be with, very funny, an excellent minic - with a great ability to 'do' regional accents, and far more intelligent than people give her credit for.)
6. Statement by senior royal aide to Parliamentary Committee investigating the monarchy in early 1970s. FearÉIREANNFile:Ireland flag large.png\ 19:34, 28 May 2005 (UTC)