Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:40, 12 May 2005

An event in this article is a April 21 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)

I humbly suggest you mention Elvis fascination with Martial Arts, how he was one of the first westerners to receive a blackbelt, how he did demonstrations on stage, etc.

what about the Jordanaires? (sp?) [sp see section)

Presley's importance to American and world culture are such that this article deserves a serious rewrite. If someone will do it, that would be great....DW

P.S. Note I changed his middle name on the opening line to the way it is spelled on his birth certificate.

Yes, agree with all

The Martial Arts info is important, I'll see if I can find enough specifics to make an attempt.

It's really important to some joker on here to pretend Elvis is the gay son of a Jewish couple.... wouldn't be surprised if it's the author of one of the trash/loid books. Folks are always trying to make a buck inventing something new about Elvis, it's easier than accomplishing anything worthwhile on their own.

Not a joke, but information taken from a seriously written new biography which throws new light on his career. ~~~~

Which are you, David Bret or his publisher? He has written some of the most discredited, inaccurate bios in the industry and this is just another of his throwaway, tabloid, invent-for-cash pieces of trash. This book is not considered a credible Elvis work regarding Elvis' career or his personal life and I believe you already know that. Further, it is completely inappropriate to use Misplaced Pages for the placement of product advertisements, particularly in the aggressive manner in which you persist in monitoring and pursuing the promotion of Bret.

I removed completely the "gay" reference. In this day and age, much trash is written and it is easy to do because a dead person cannot be slandered by law. {Actually since Elvis is a copyrighted trademark owned by EPE I think there is a way to rectify this outragous insistance about Elvis being gay. He was NOT, and EPE is looking into this right now.} As such, authors of limited skills like David Bret, immune from lawsuits, use any form of sensationalism to sell books. In the case of Presley, he provided zero proof of any homosexual relationship. His book and the claim of a gay Elvis has been totally dismissed by all but a few with an agenda. No credible media organization gave his book any validity of any nature. To add to Misplaced Pages this unfounded claim from such a source, belittles Misplaced Pages and does great harm to its credibility. NightCrawler 17:02, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)

So much for the comment by a user who is still under a Misplaced Pages hard ban. Here is some other information on the author and his book:

French-born David Bret is one of Britain’s leading show business biographers. He has had many successful biographies published, including Gracie Fields: The Authorised Biography, Morrissey: Landscapes of the Mind, Piaf: A Passionate Life and George Formby: A Troubled Genius. He has also written innumerable magazine articles (for instance, for The Stage) and lectured at the University of Chicago.

Bret's book is a comprehensive guide to Elvis Presley's career on film and TV which analyzes the King's every celluloid appearance, including his 33 films, documentaries, TV appearances, tributes, biopics and retrospectives. Accompanying this exhaustive study is a biography of the legend and a complete filmography. The book uncovers a wealth of previously unpublished material and presents photographs from the author's personal collection. ~~~~

David Bret is a sensationalist, don't believe anything he writes! David Bret is GAY!

I don't think that the material from the David Bret biography should be deleted, but I would like to see it corroborated. ffirehorse 23:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The gay reference to Elvis NEEDS to be deleted and kept deleted! Bret did not even know Elvis! Most of his information such as discography and filmography was lifted from other Elvis books. For him to take the word of Dee Presley is absurd! That woman is squirrley and she has made up some disgusting stories about Elvis.

Besides, if Elvis was gay (which he wasn't) then why did he sleep with hundreds of women? For Brett to say that Elvis and Priscilla only had sexual relations one time is preposterous....was Brett in their bed too?

In her autobiography, Priscilla Presley herself said that although Elvis would spend hours alone with her in her bedroom he never made any advances toward her. This statement is totally contradictory to your claim that Elvis was 100% heterosexual and a womanizer. ~~~~

Isn't there anything exciting in Duisburg for you do besides trying to ruin a dead man's reputation?

I have been living for some time in Memphis. I am interested in facts throwing new light on the king's life and career. If Bret and Dee Presley are right this would explain a lot, for instance, the strong influence of Colonel Parker, though I would not go so far as to say that those men of the Memphis Mafia who were with Elvis everyday from 1956 on were all gay. What's wrong with the fact that Elvis may have been gay or bisexual? As a musician, he is still a much loved legend. ~~~~

None of the MM are gay! They have all been married at least once and have children.

Sorry, but this means nothing as many homosexual men have been wooing and marrying straight woman in order to provide a safe cover for their true sexual orientation. Many of them may be too ashamed to acknowledge their feelings for fear of reprisal. Even Rock Hudson and Elton John were married and still gay as can be. ~~~~

Sorry, Elvis and and Memphis Mafia were/are not in the same category as R. Hudson or E John. They were/are not gay and had no interest in men sexually.

Elvis was nonconfrontational and that's why he never stood up to Colonel P. Bret and Dee Presley are wrong. Period.

This is your opinion. ~~~~

Elvis was very much aware of the fact that Priscilla Presley was under age at the beginning of their relationship, and he was reticent to engage in a sexual relationship with her while she was under age. As their relationship grew more serious, Elvis refrained from having sex with her because he wanted to marry a virgin.

Could this be the normal behavior of a womanizer who slept with hundreds of girls and women? ~~~~

No, disagree with

"the demand for transistor radios exploded so much so that Sony went from a small Japanese telecommunications company making radios to a giant global conglomerate"

Uuuuuh ! What about this? Is it all thank to Elvis that Sony becam what it is now?? If not (and I'm pretty sure it's not), this information has no place here.

Elvis sightings links here, but this page says nothing about the phenomenon, or about the Church of Elvis, or the many other strange things related to him.212.42.97.111 11:14, 11 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Elvis Presley's international influence

I love Elvis's music, but I don't know much about his international impact. The thing is that the section isn't quite complete, so I was wondering if there's someone who knows a great deal about Elvis Presley's international influence. Then you can expand on information on Elvis's influence. If there's somebody who's a big Elvis fan, please let me know. Marcus2 13:59, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

       Elvis had more Top 10 hits in the UK than in the US, and was popular all over the world. Interestingly,   
       he never played a concert outside of North America. Elvis' touring was confined to the United States
       and Canada. It has been claimed this was due to Col. Tom Parker having entered the USA as an 
       illegal alien in his teens, and thus Parker did not want to call attention to his immigration status.

Elvis' cultural legacy

It might not hurt to have a mention of his legacy among impersonators and such, as well as more on Elvis sightings and mentions of the Churches in his name (though they are mostly jokes), but they are still part of his legacy: Church of Jesus Christ Elvis and First Preslyterian Church of Elvis the Divine. Let he who has not sinned cast the first rhinestone... --DanielCD 20:29, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Bret's Book =

• Bret's book has no place here. This is not an article about slanderous second class writers!

This is an article about Elvis Presley, a man who loved women, a heterosexual man.

With due respect, David Bret has made a career out of thinly researched books containing "revelations" of celebrity sleaze. Until a reputable source prints this info, we're better off without.

In her book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis, Dee Presley, the king's stepmother, also makes some astonishing accusations. She says that Elvis was with men, too, and also mentions his affair with Nick Adams. ~~~~

Dee Presley is known for her over the top remarks. She has always had an axe to grind since her flirtations with Elvis were ignored. Those who were close to Elvis for his entire life are in total agreement that Elvis was 100% hetrosexual. His desire for women never waned. These statements about Elvis being gay are totally unfounded and need to be stopped. If anyone wants to speak to Elvis' first cousin Billy Smith who was with Elvis from the very beginning to the end, please say so and I'll arrange it. I can also arrange for you to speak to many of the other Memphis Mafia, Marty, Larry, Sonny, Red, etc.

• • Why is it that as soon as the gay reference to Elvis is removed it reappears again in a matter of minutes?

I am contacting my friends at EPE and we will get this settled once and for all. They will not tolerate Elvis being called gay!

It is an undeniable fact that Elvis and Nick Adams were boyfriends. For instance, in Los Angeles, where Elvis made movies, Judy Spreckels remembers going out on a Sunday with him and his friend Nick Adams. The latter had become the companion to a group of homosexuals and Elvis was one of his male friends. ~~~~

This is not a fact and it is most certainly deniable! Judy Spreckels is but one woman, there are hundreds of other woman, most still living who have shared their sexual encounters with Elvis from the 50's through the 70's. I think it's time for some of these women to come here and tell their stories anout their bedroom frolics with EP. If you prefer Elvis' bio to just center on his sex life and not his great musical´accomplishments, then so be it.

Sorry, Judy Spreckels was like a sister to Elvis, a companion, confidante and keeper of secrets in the exciting days of his early career. They drove bumper cars in Las Vegas, rode horses in California and hung out at Graceland. "Anything he told me was not going to go to any publication," she said. "I am the only person who was around Elvis who was a writer and didn't write a book. I felt secrets were secrets." ~~~~

Top Tens

Madonna has 35 Top 10's, the last was "Die Another Day" in November 2002. And Elvis has 38 Hot 100 Top Tens, this was confirmed when Billboard published "110 Musical Milestones" in celebration of their 100th anniversary a month or so ago. MadonnaFan 17:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Top 40 singles=

http://go.to/madonna -- FAQ --- the webmaster discusses the records that Madonna, Elvis, The Beatles, etc. hold. The site is down but will be up soon... MadonnaFan 04:41, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why is ELV1S 30 #1 Hits spelled with a "1"?

A- Because that's the way BMG decided to spell it.

Category:Identical twins

Jesse Garon Presley was Elvis' stillborn identical twin. Here's the link to his bio at the official site. In the interest of completeness, I added both to the category. I think its appropriate, but im not looking for a fight, i wont re-apply it if it disappears again. popefauvexxiii 11:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Johnny Hallyday

I removed this:

In France, singer Johnny Hallyday copied Presley in the French language, becoming a huge star in that country.

I don't know much about either of them, but I haven't found any source to support the theory that Johnny Hallyday is nothing but a French-language Elvis impersonator. It might be accurate to say he was strongly influenced by him, but then who wasn't? Deco 01:52, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Spelling The Jordonaires/Jordanaires

I read the booklet of my "The complete 50's masters" (5 CD-box, RCA, bought 1993).

• It has pictures of posters, saying "The Jordonaires".

page sessionography, second page

page starting with 'Tutti Frutti', background picture.

• But the same chapter, recording personnel-lists say "Vocals: The Jordanaires".

Fed investigation requested. -DePiep 14:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have many of their autographed pictures, the correct spelling is Jordanaires.

Aight Kids, Reel it in a little

Hey, stop it with the edit-summary-challenged reverts. Before anyone else reverts any more changes, please discuss these edits here. I'm sure we can come to a solution that everyone is happy with- some people here don't want Elvis to be slandered posthumously, and others want possibly relevant biographical information to be included somehow. I'm sure we can couch the information properly so that it can be included with a grain of salt. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:20, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Well, if it's written by David Bret it SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt. He's a modern day Albert Goldman! Here's some facts about Elvis' sexuality. I am in close contact with many of Elvis' friends, former employees and family. At one time or another at least one of these people were always with Elvis. According to them, Elvis never lost his interest in women,and he was never faithful to any one woman! While married, he slept with hundreds of other women, then when Linda Thompson-Jenner-Foster came into the picture and lived at Graceland he cheated on her. While he was engaged to Ginger Alden he had a tryst with Alicia Kerwin(a bank teller from Memphis), and a few others in Las Vegas. Just because he knew Nick Adams does not make EP gay! I have gay friends too....does that automatically make me gay?

As for his step-mother Dee, she has made some very unsavory remarks about Elvis and his own mother! (Gladys) If she can say something that vile, then she's capable of saying anything. Besides, she's mentally unstable.

Also, this Bret creature claims Elvis and Priscilla only made love one time... HOW would he know such a thing?

I will not stand by and let him tarnish the name of one of the greatest entertainers of all time and a true American Icon.

Many of the Memphis Mafia have written tell-all books and if this gay factor fit in they would have used it to boost sales. They are all in total agreement that Bret is full of .....well, you know what.

A devoted Elvis fan is constantly deleting what is written about Presley's possible homosexuality in two different books on Elvis and some other sources. One of these sources is written by the king's stepmother, Dee Presley. In the article on Elvis is only written that some authors claim that Elvis was gay. The reader may decide whether or not this accusation is true. This Elvis fan seems to be the same guy who is still under a Misplaced Pages hard ban. He is even deleting parts of the present discussion and claims, without proof, that Elvis slept with hundreds of women. I do not understand why this Elvis fan sees the king's possible homosexuality as a problem. ~~~~

It's a problem because it's a LIE!

This is your opinion. Others would say that there is enough evidence that it's true. ~~~~

• Produce the evidence then. There is none.

But, there is plenty of evidence to prove EP was Not GAY!

• • Actually, the "devoted fan" is someone who knew Elvis all of his life.

This is what you claim you are. Sorry, it seems more likely that you are a member of the Elvis Mafia who wants to make money selling "girl's guides to Elvis Presley" and all of this stuff and therefore wants to keep alive the story of Elvis the prodigious lover of women. Why are you so keenly interested in suppressing other opinions in this talk on Elvis? According to the Misplaced Pages guidelines, you are not allowed to delete contributions by other users on discussion pages. ~~~~

The above paragraph is a personal attack on the integrity of the MM. They have never written any silly "girls guides to Elvis Presley". Most of their books on EP have become the Definitive books, and even Peter Guarlnick used their books as his personal reference. As I mentioned earlier, there have been over 2000 books published on Elvis and the most factual and honest of them were penned by the MM.´The more I read remarks like the one referenced, the more I'm convinced David Bret is indeed here plugging himself (haha) and his book.

You are indeed joking around. ~~~~

There is nothing for the reader to decide about Elvis' sexuality, he was 100% heterosexual. It's a shame someone is taking the word of Dee Presley, one of the few women Elvis despised! There have been over 2,000 books written about Elvis, and only 2 (two) of them mention him being gay.....one is by Dee Presley and the other is by a plagiarist named David Bret.

Sorry, this is not true. There are even some discussions how gay some Elvis lyrics may have been, for example in the song, "Teddy Bear":

Baby let me be,

your lovin' Teddy Bear

Put a chain around my neck,

and lead me anywhere

Oh let me be

Your teddy bear.

Once the reader gets past the requisite Abu Ghraib reference, it could well be that Elvis is singing about the leather-laded gay bear scene.

• • What an idiotic conclusion!!!

As for Abu Ghraib, let us further examine the king's famous "Jailhouse Rock":

The drummer boy from Illinois went crash, boom, bang,

the whole rhythm section was the Purple Gang.

Let's rock, everybody, let's rock.

Everybody in the whole cell block

was dancin' to the Jailhouse Rock.

Number forty-seven said to number three:

"You're the cutest jailbird I ever did see.

I sure would be delighted with your company,

come on and do the Jailhouse Rock with me."

Let's rock, everybody, let's rock.

Everybody in the whole cell block

was dancin' to the Jailhouse Rock.

The sad sack was a sittin' on a block of stone

way over in the corner weepin' all alone.

The warden said, "Hey, buddy, don't you be no square.

If you can't find a partner use a wooden chair.

When was the last time you heard of a co-ed prison? There is also the expression "Purple gang". The reader may know that lavender is the official gay color. Number 47 also seems to have something for fellow inmates. In addition, you may try to figure out what two partners might do with a wooden chair. If you have any ideas, let me know.

--OH now that is rich! Elvis didn't write those songs....and even if he did. Are you saying that Eminem is a rapist/murderer because he "sings" about rape and murder? Your logic is twisted, and you're sadly mistaken about Elvis having ANY gay tendencies. No, I'm not a member of the MM, but let me tell you some of them have written factual books about EP, such as: Revelations of the Memphis Mafia, Elvis What Happened, Portrait of a Friend, Elvis From Memphis to Hollywood. Perhaps you need to contact Elvis historian and former Memphis entertainment reporter Bill E Burk. He has several highly accliamed Elvis books in print, and he was a personal friend as well. He believes in researching his work, not listening to idle gossip the way Bret does.

What shall we do now? Despite recent claims by some authors, among them Elvis's stepmother Dee Presley, that the king may have been gay as he had an affair with homosexual actor Nick Adams, there is the opinion of many others that such accusations are only based on hearsay. I think that both opinions should be mentioned in the article. At the beginning, the said passage on the king's relationships clearly says "From the beginning of his career, Elvis was a sex symbol who sent legions of women swooning. He had a string of girlfriends, before and after he became famous, including celebrities such as Mamie Van Doren, Natalie Wood, Tuesday Weld, Cybill Shepherd and Ann-Margret." Therefore, I have now added at the end the sentence, "Despite these accusations, many other authors believe that there is still much evidence that Elvis was heterosexual." I hope that this is satisfactory and acceptable to all. ~~~~

Dee Presley is not a credible source. David Bret is a sleeze chaser.

This is your personal opinion. ~~~~

• Hey, sorry I wasn't able to follow this debate over the weekend, but I'm finding it really hard to follow the debate retrospectively, as you guys aren't signing your comments. So I have a few requests, if this debate is to continue:

1. Can everyone start signing their comments with ~~~~? This is good advice for any wikipedia talk page.
2. Can we refrain from the personal attacks? Even though "idiotic conclusion" is not a direct attack on a person, it is still unnecessary for these procedings.
3. I think we all acknowledge that our encyclopedia article should include all important sources. Though some people may discredit Dee Presley and David Bret's credibility, the fact that they are significant biographers or characters in Elvis' life means that their opinions should be presented as such in the article, although they can be given with a disclaimer. If these claims are later resoundingly disproven, we can remove the topics.

OK guys, are we cool? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I just had to re-add some comments that were deleted by User:66.61.69.65, who is still failing to sign his posts. If you continue to not follow wiki procedure, you may be blocked from editing. Please follow decorum here. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:32, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I just saw the same removal on the article and the talk page by User:24.165.212.202. If anyone makes these same removals without further discussion or descriptive edit summaries, I will block their IP for 24 hours. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:15, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Same warning for User:82.40.81.132. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:38, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I have now rearranged the discussion text to make it more readable. No part of the original text is missing. ~~~~

One last thing, I would like to refocus the debate on this page slightly. Keep in mind that we are not debating here whether or not Elvis was or was not gay, but whether or not the 'rumors that he was gay are encyclopedic. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:45, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

In an article by David S. Wall there is an interesting discussion of radical policing strategies implemented over the years by Elvis fan clubs and organisations. See The article clearly states that one of these strategies is " 'community policing' to achieve governance at a distance and typically effected through the various fan clubs and appreciation societies to which the bulk of Elvis fans belong. These organisations have, through their membership magazines, activities and sales operations, created a powerful moral majority that can be influenced in order to exercise its considerable economic power. Policing by mobilising the organic ‘Elvis community’ – the fan and fan club networks – has been achieved in a number of different ways, for example, when Dee Presley, nee Stanley, Elvis’s former step-mother, wrote a supposedly whistle blowing account of Elvis’s last years. The fan clubs refused to endorse the book and condemned it in their editorials. The combined effect of this economic action and negative publicity was poor sales and the apparent withdrawal of the book. With a combined membership of millions, the fans form a formidable constituency of consumer power. Dee Presley subsequently wrote an article in the National Enquirer about Elvis’s alleged incestuous relationship with his mother. This action invoked an angry reaction from the fans; for example, the T.C.B. Gazette, journal of the Looking for Elvis Fan Club in Mobile, Alabama, published an open letter by Midge Smith to encourage all fans to boycott the Star, a US tabloid: ‘s Elvis fans, we all feel compelled to protect Elvis from those that profit from his name and image, only to turn the truth into trash’. Smith’s stance was supported by the fan club, which appealed to ‘‘‘Elvis’’ fans world-wide not to purchase the Star magazine any more’.

Another interesting, but slightly complicated, example of the de facto ‘community’ policing of Elvis occurred after the organisers of the Second International Elvis Presley Conference, held at the University of Oxford, Mississippi in August 1996, invited San Francisco-based Elvis Herselvis, a lesbian Elvis impersonator, to perform at the conference. The conference organiser, Professor Vernon Chadwick, sought ‘not to provoke controversy gratuitously’, rather, ‘to test the limits of race, class, sexuality and property, and when these traditional strongholds are challenged, controversies arise from the subjects themselves’. Furthermore, as an official University event, the conference must comply ‘with all applicable laws regarding affirmative action and equal opportunity in all its activities and programs and does not discriminate against anyone protected by law because of age, creed, colour, national origin, race, religion, sex, handicap, veteran, or other status’. Whilst these intentions were widely known, a number of local Baptist Ministers complained to the Mayor of Tupelo about the inclusion of Elvis Herselvis on the conference programme and sought to block funding for the conference. The church’s concerns were supported by the organiser of the Elvis birthplace and Museum, then EPE followed suit. Conference organiser Chadwick argued that these actions ‘really get interesting when you throw in all the indigenous racism, homophobia, and class distinction that Elvis suffered in the South and throughout his career’. Chadwick received a formal, but diplomatic, letter from EPE’s licensing officer which formally POLICING ELVIS withdrew support for the conference. It referred specifically to the controversial nature of the ‘performers’ invited to the 1996 conference and alluded to the ‘possible media exposure of this controversial event’. Indeed, it seems probable that the estate’s own actions were themselves forced by the broader community view. Whilst the withdrawal of Graceland’s support was not critical to the survival of the conference, the organisers were disappointed because of the event’s cultural affinity with Graceland."

It could well be that the ample suppression of the opinion Elvis may have been gay on the present discussion page must be seen in the same light. Therefore, the passage, "just about every other author, writing in the vein of the worldwide Elvis industry which has a tendency toward supporting only a 'favorable' view of the king, believes that Elvis was heterosexual", should be included in the Misplaced Pages article. ~~~~

First - terminology: "Gay" commonly refers to people who "strongly" prefer to have sex with people of the same sex. (Most often refering to male homosexuals). Since Elvis is reported to have had sufficient (in my judgement) liaisons with the opposite sex, he was unlikely to be "gay". -- The questions of how you define a person's sex and just how strong the preference must be, I'll leave to others to wrangle over - I don't think they matter here. Can we agree that the argument here is whether he could be described as a bisexual?

Second - "100% hetrosexual". Unless a man gets physically sick at the sight of another man or in any other man's presence, the idea that he is 100% of any sexual orientation is silly. We are talking about preferences, right? If we are talking about behaviour, then there may be a factual basis to base conclusions on. These "facts", if subjected to sufficient examination or corroboration, may be accepted by a rational unbiased observer or may be discredited. Proof is evidence sufficient to convince, nothing more nor less.

Third - Negative Proof. In order to "prove" that Elvis was not bisexual, you would have to prove that he never ever engaged in sex acts with another male. This is an impossible task: he was not monitored by unbiased, honest observers 24/7, birth to death.

Fourth - I assert that given his own self-interest (for all the financial, social and personal reasons you can think of in those "enlightened" times) he would reasonably be expected to keep his "preferences" a secret. Given the "show-biz" reality then and now it is likely (again IMHO) that some of his "girlfriends" were only there for the publicity (like Rock Hudson's career) or for the money ( examples are infinite). BOTH for their part and on his part. We CAN agree, I believe that he did NOT leave behind a hoarde of male lovers - else we would have heard from some of them by now. So, would it be also reasonable to agree that he preferred women? (The question, irrelevant as whether he put his left shoe on first or his right, is did he have a significant interest in men (as sexual partners)?) The answer (to repeat myself) seems to be that he preferred women. Why isn't that enough?

Fifth - His daughter is still with us (I think?) I therefore assert that it is hurtful to SPECULATE about her father. It is unkind, uncharitable, unChristian and just plain mean. It is gossip. Just nasty.

Sixth - As stated by others above, the question is what are the facts? Not assertions unsupported by any verifiable facts, but plain old facts. Not he said she said, but verifiable facts. The idea that he couldn't have had any secrets from his inner circle is (IMHO) silly - we all have secrets. The idea that his inner circle must know something is also speculation. How does any of this affect his legacy?

Seventh - There are those who do not want to blemish his "reputation" for any reason and there are those who want to throw mud, need to throw mud. Neither of these camps will EVER have proof sufficient to get them to change their mind. These two camps are talking past one another.

Eighth - ANYBODY can "conclude" that Mr. X was a "Y". Solid biographers will document the factual basis for this claim in their publications. Often, the fact that someone made a claim is treated as a fact supporting the same claim. This is circular group think. From what I read here about Bret's claim, I saw NO facts entered as evidence simply his compilation of others claims/opinions. This is poor journalism and terrible biography - I'm talking about the Wiki article not Bret's book. Either substantiate Bret's claim with facts garnered from his book, or remove the reference to it.

Ninth - PP is HOT. Yeah even at 60. Makes you wonder....

) 02:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)~

Hyperbole?

Has Elvis really had an "immeasurable" effect on world culture? What does that even mean in this context - that we can't measure it or that it's somehow off the scale? It could be "measurable" and probably be more sensible. All in all I think the article is a bit over the top. Differing opinions? Hardwick 20:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)