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Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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I've archived this page again. 155 kilobytes moved to /Archive2 :-) Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 23:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Leif Ericson

I have removed but with some evidence suggesting the Norseman penetrated as far as Minnesota, either coming down from Hudson Bay or going west through the Great Lakes. from the article, please provide a source to make such a claim, as it standed it was more original research. Lincher 12:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. This claim can be referenced by William O Kellogg, who is former Head of the History Dept. at the highly esteemed St. Paul's School, in his texbook "American History th easy way,' 3rd Ed. ISBN 0-7641-1973-7, 2003. The actual section is on page 9 under "The Vikings." and page 8, "European Immigrants." Im sure if you researched this question, though, you'd find it in many other reputable academic sources.Giovanni33 21:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Zionism article

I was not planning to edit more than the intro to that article. It is indeed a notorious example of 'propaganda by Misplaced Pages', but this can not be corrected by individual users. The systemic preferences of Misplaced Pages are to blame, for instance Misplaced Pages gives a sourced false statement priority over an unsourced true statement. I suggest avoiding the circular discussions at the articles talk page, you could try village pump. Paul111 09:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your message on Zionism.

I have been pondering an RfC or some other administrative appeal to address the frankly embarrassing level of bias on the Zionism page for some time. Any thoughts on how we should proceed on dispute resolution? BYT 14:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Hallo Giovanni, thanks very much for your message. It gladened me especially since it came from you, with whom I have "fought many a battle".

To clear things up, I have not been officially banned from anywhere. It is just Jim making sniding remarks against me (and later also against Ann), answering any argument from my part with accusations of trying to whitewash. In this context he found out, by looking at my user page, that I was a Catholic, and he suggested that as such I couldn't legitimately edit on Catholic issues. And yes, the term "religious racism" is very polemic, being born out of a moment of ire: it's like "no blacks here, no Catholics here". Of course, he hasn't any means of enforcing this view. To protest against it, I have altered my user page for now.

Now, I know that you do not agree with all my edits, but in this case it was merely a disagreement of whether to include a "parade of critics" and their "name calling", which I considered bloating the section without giving substantial information After all, there is a main article on this subject, where all these quote are covered in detail. Jim however chose to accuse me that I wanted to mute criticism against the Pope, whereas I have repeatedly stated that I wouldn't object to a summary of the Muslim objection being included in this place.

I have tried some admins to admonish Jim, but the ones that answered have chosen to ingore it based on the argument that it were a "content dispute". I will not pursue this any further.

Thanks for your offer but I don't think you can be of assistance. Anyway the conflict has calmed down right now. But thanks again for your kind words. All the best, Str1977 10:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Problems with history section of Italy article

Giovanni, I have the Italy article on my watchlist, and I reviewed the history section a bit more closely after your edits to try and straighten it out. Eventually I tracked the problems down to some unreverted vandalism on the 14th of September(!), I think I've now restored the affected paras to their last good state (which coincidentally was a vandalism reversion I performed then), with a bit of copy-editing as I was going through. Please have a look and see what you think (for the most part it's completely over-written your changes). David Underdown 13:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

User notice: temporary 3RR block

Regarding reversions made on September 22 2006 to Zionism

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

Next time, you'd be better off actually admitting your 3RR unequivocally. And, of course, avoiding 3RR at all: WP:1RR is better William M. Connolley 08:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and thanks for only giving me 12 hours.Giovanni33 09:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

In fairness, though, he did unequivocally admit it here, and probably would have self-reverted if he had been given an opportunity to do so. Anyway, 12 hours isn't too harsh! AnnH ♫ 13:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Ann, but I'm happy with just 12 hours. I was just afraid of gettting a week! :)Giovanni33 16:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You need to learn your punctuation

From Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style:

When punctuating quoted passages, include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations).

One of the cited examples:

Arthur said the situation was "deplorable". (Only a fragment is quoted; the full stop is not part of the quotation.)

Next time, make sure your "corrections" conform to the accepted style, and especially avoid uncivil remarks such as accusing the person nice enough to clean up after you of ignorance. A.J.A. 04:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Zionism - links

I don't think edit warring will help. There are too many of them, blindly subscribing to the same crazy idea. IMO, an RfC etc. is the only way to go. --Anonymous44 21:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see that an edit war can be useful in some cases, but that would be the case if, for example, we were only facing A.J.A. and Hummus Sapiens. But what we have now is nearly every - what should I call them - pro-Israeli (?) editor on Misplaced Pages (including, sadly, an admin and ex-member of the Arbitration Committee), espousing exactly the same absurd view (the ideology of, well, POV segregation and cleansing of articles), as if it were something they learnt at primary school. They are inevitably going to be in the majority. People such as Jayjg haven't been - and apparently aren't going to be - influenced by the discussion regarding that matter on the talk page (either because they believe in their own arguments or for other reasons) and we can't expect them to give up before sheer force either, especially as we don't have sheer force anyway. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suspect that a continuation of the edit war strategy in such a situation can only weaken our position if anything. Formal Dispute Resolution could (and, I dare say, should) stop them; edit warring can't, in the long run. It's just a waste of time. --Anonymous44 08:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Please consider joining me in filing an RFC over the Zionism links issue.

I'd like to keep this as narrow as possible, and focus only on the links section. If you're interested, could I ask you to provide me with:

a) a few diffs illustrating reversions on the article page that reflect bias on the part of career editors there

b) (if you feel like it) specific instances of incivility or bias you encounted on the talk page there.

Thanks, BYT 12:24, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3ASOPHIA&diff=78930244&oldid=76109703

Al

If it was integrity of the encyclopedia they cared about he would never have been banned. None of his severest critics ever tried the line that he was harming the encyclopedia as that would call into question one of the biggest problems with this project (and in my view the thing that will eventually kill it) - biased editing and protectionism. Some of the drivers for his banning have themselves been censured by the arbcom for biased editing and wheel warring but no action was taken against them. Seems it's ok for some to violate procedures and abuse admin tools "in the heat of the moment" if they are editing a touchy subject. They don't seem to understand that wikipedia is full of "touchy subjects" with only those that edit them understanding the passions and problems raised. Either the rules are to be upheld or they are not. At the moment the rules are only applied if you have managed to get up the nose of someone influential.

You can follow this up if you wish but it will be wasted time as no-one cares and Al is doing just fine as he is. Sophia 22:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

She's right. See Centrx's response here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Centrx&diff=next&oldid=80361530 06:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Alienus was one of the most deadly edit warriors on Misplaced Pages. His response to any reasonable argument was to accuse his opponents of violating Misplaced Pages rules and edit warring from the outset, before they had even raised a point! His removal was a triumph for the organisation. There is indeed a God.

Deadly? I beg to differ, whoever you are. This disagreement is based on much interaction with the editor. Overall, his role was beneficial, esp. his edit warring--and his removal is, contrary to your point, suggestive that there is indeed NO god (which ofcourse there is not). Wikiepedia is better with Alienus than without him. But, he has never left. :) Giovanni33 19:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

A prime example of what you can accomplish if you know how to do it. Good luck to him if he can manage to do it without drawing attention to himself. --Deskana talk 23:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Citizendium

Thanks for that. Hopefully it should address some of the real issues here. It might be fun to get involved but I don't have much time at the moment and I'm very unsure about editing under my real name as there are some real cranks out there and I have kids. Sophia 22:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Giorgio Orsini

Hi Giovanni

We have a problem with editing the article about famous 15th century Italian architect - Giorgio Orsini. If you are knowledgeable about this man or if you know people who know about him - please, be involved or ask other people to be involved in the discussion and editing of the article about him.--GiorgioOrsini 15:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Israel/Zionism

What do you mean by a national homeland? Please define what this would entail. And also, do you oppose Muslim states that have been created by conquest? Please do respond to this because I've never been able to hold a Chomskyite in civilized conversation for more than a couple of minutes and would honestly like to hear your point of view. No kidding here at all, I'm being serious I want to hear Chomsky's point of view up to debate as both him and Finkelstein refuse to reply to mail. I'm being honest-- logic will sway me. I'm not solidly stuck in my position about Israel, but using logic and avoiding emotional storytelling are likely to convince me if your view holds up.--Urthogie 05:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure. First I'm not Chomsky or Finkelstein but their POV is similar to mine on many issues. But to explain my POV--and I hope I'm logical--I'm against all States. I'm not an anarchist, either; I see States as a necessary evil given the current state of human civilization. Some are better than others. None should ever be glorified, nor treated as an end, but rather as a means to an end, that end being peace, security for ALL, democracy, people before profits, equality ect (essentially progressive values). Note I'm an anti-nationalist. Nationalism, I hold as a reactionary ideology that doesnt service the best interests of mankind and leads to treating some people better than others. There should be no "me first" thinking on the individual or group level. They are all ethically repugnant and a prime ingredient to racism.

Of course States should never be supported when they rest on the oppresssion of others. I oppose all conquest and imperialism, past and present. As far as states created by conquest, what is important is current oppression, i.e. ending it,(esp. state-sponsored) that are in the bussiness of building based on conquest of others. This must be opposed equally in all cases, which a special responsiblity for those you can have the greatest effect in changing, stoping, i.e. if I live in the US, I have a special responsiblity to speak out against things this countries does (directly or indirectly as in the case of support for Israeli occupation).

As for the meaning of a national homeland, it could mean the country of origin and native land of a people who have a strong cultural connection and history within such a territory , a cultural geography. There are many ethnic groups who holds a long history and a deep cultural association different country or geographical regions, in particular where the national identity began. And, diffferent groups can live in peace side to side, with differenlanguage, cultures, co-existing with the same country, united under the common accepted cultural norms of democratic values. This does not negate a national homeland, only having it based on the oppression of others. Hence, I'm able to be for a national homeland for the Jewish people in the land of Israel while at the same time I'm anti-Zionist and advocate for a Binational solutionGiovanni33 06:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is your anti-State energy so focused on such a small country as compared to all of the countries around it which were formed by Muslim conquest. This is one part I don't understand. The histories of America, Australia, England-- they are not comparible to Israel. These are places that have commited genocide of millions. England had concentration camps. Australia wiped out certain tribal populations. Same with America.

I also find it strange that you think Israel is not very threatened by its neighbors. One of my biggest concerns is that Iran will develop nukes, and those nukes will fall into the hands of Islamist terrorists.

Also, I don't understand how your POV can be similar to Finkelstein, who supports Hezbollah, and at the same time claim that it's difficult to make a case against an Israeli state. If it's so difficult, why are you similar in your views to a man who supports organizations who want to eliminate the Jewish presence in the region?

Lastly, I think if you look at history you'll see there originally was a binational state (with UN approval), before Israel was attacked by its Arab nationalist neighbors from all sides. This was what everyone wanted-- binationalism (well-- to be specific it would be only one unique nationality as Palestinians weren't an ethnicity then) and a two state solution! The palestinians are actually not an ethnic group-- they are only a nationality because of the wars that have stemmed from the 1948 conflict. Israel originally wanted a two state solution, and now it is criticized by those who support its destruction. --Urthogie 18:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Your not understanding, as you say, seems to be based on an acceptance of a false premise with your questions. For example, what makes you think that my "Anti-State" engery is so focussed on any one country, and why is size of the country even relevant? Actually, most of my "energy" has been against the US illegal invastion and occupation of Iraq. The logically relevant factors concern oppression that is current and on-going, and importantly, oppression in which one is contributing to directly, i.e. the country that im paying a large amount of taxes by living and working in (the US), which is directly contributing to the illegal occupation and oppression of a people, and thus doing so itself indirectly. This is not an academic question of history either. What you say about genocide committed by other colonialist and imperialist ventures in their formative period of nationhood is correct. That is history. Is it happening now? Does the US still have concentration camps for Native Americans? To bring it up, and point to them as if doing so implies that one can not oppose strongly what Israel is NOW doing (or anyone else for that matter), is to commit a logical fallacy known as "two wrongs make a right." They don't. Its also rather disturbing and weak to say others are doing this, so don't look at me (even if they were doing it today).

Not that I think it is relevant but I disagree with you that "Palestinians" are not an ethnicity. But, why do you think it even matters? This is what I find strange. An ethnic group is cultural (unlike race). That is, any human population whose members identify with each other, united by certain common cultural, behavioural, linguistic and ritualistic or religious traits, and have a name that unites them with that identity, which they claim as some cultural continuity over time. It is rooted in the idea of social groups makred by these attributes and affinities. Ethnographers and linguists use the term Palestinian as an ethnic group as well, to denote the specific Arab subculture of the southern Levant; in that sense, it includes not only the Arabs of British Mandate Palestine, but also those inhabitants of Jordan who are originally from Palestine and the Druze, while excluding both Bedouin (who culturally and linguistically group with Arabia) and ethnic minorities such as the Dom and Samaritans. In common usage, the Samaritans of the West Bank are usually referred to as Palestinian. Again, all this doesnt matter for me. People are people. Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person, and affords the person the protection of the state; politically an ethnic group is distinguished from a nation-state by a lack of sovereignty.

I also think you are wrong about the history of Israel being origionally a binational state. It wasn't ever. Israel's native Arab population were displaced, and equal political rights was never granted. Read the article about this: Binational solution

Finally, if you don't see how my POV is similar to Chomsky and Finkelstien, I say look harder because I see the similiarities. I've read them and heard them enough to know my view points are quite similar indeed. Note that similar doesn't identical. With all the problems and reactionary religious ideology of Hezzbola, they stand in the right in their fight against Isreal given the important distinction between the oppressed and oppressors. As far as feeling threatened, I should say so, as should be the case against all criminal, rogue states, the US included. Oppression breeds resistence and it creates many enemies. This is to be expected, no? I think people everywhere should rise up against all such criminal states. I see Israel, though, as only an attack dog, a military outpost of US imperialism that is used to help to keep the oppressed arab people in the ME in check. Giovanni33 21:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

At first, I was going to respond to this reply with a point by point rebuttal of what I see as your extremely naive interpretations of history, current events, and politics. But then I recognized that would be too overarching a conversation. So lets focus on one issue, to highlight how misguided your views are. You say the problem in Iraq is US "oppression".

The United States is responsible for less than one third of the violent deaths in Iraq. The Iraqis are killing each other in a brutal tribal and religious civil war not because of the presence of the United States, but rather because of the lack of presence of Saddam Hussein, and a weak government that exists as a result of poor planning by the US. Bush did a great job deceiving the American people into this stupid war, but did a horrible job planning it. It was of course an unwinnable war, because they don't actually want democracy-- they want to support their various tribes and religious sects.

By the way. I'd like you to define oppression. You use this word quite often and I doubt you actually have a very concrete meaning to it, aside from using it for emotional charge. It seems to be your way of saying that two groups are fighting and one has more power than the other. I honestly don't support the underdog in all fights, so I don't automatically regard an unfair fight as unjust. That would be extremely irrational.--Urthogie 04:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Its late and I'm tired so I'm going to make this very short. Occupiers are fully responsible for what happens. They have no right, only responsibilities. Its funny how you say its not because of the United States, its because there is no Saddam Hussein. But, how did that come to be? By an act of the people of the country itself? No. And, why is it that Saddam Hussein can do something and the most powerful country in the history of the world can't? Sorry, but all the bloodshed in Iraq lies at the doorstep of the US. Its not poor planning, and being stupid, etc. Who is the naive one here? This is not the first time in history. About oppression, I sugggest you read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Oppression. Next I reccommend you look up Imperialism, another "charged" word but one that is quite real. I don't believe the underdog is always right, but I firmly stand with the oppressed against oppressors, even if the former are not always ethical in their own tactics. I don't blame the victim. And, we are not talking about just individuals here, we are talking about systems of oppression.Giovanni33 11:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The US can't control the population simply because it is not a brutal dictator, and actually has the false idea that the people there are ready for democracy. Both of us agree the US shouldn't have gone there-- but you seem to find a way to call the US oppressors nonetheless. That's ridiculous. The problem in Iraq is the lack of a very powerful opressor-- there is no tribal leader in power genociding the other tribes, which would keep peace. The US is not oppressing them-- the Iraqis are oppressing themselves in the absence of an evil dictator. They are not capable of living peacefully without an opressive tribal dictatorship in power-- you would claim that the problem is the "opressive" US, but in actuality the problem is the inept US, thinking it could succeed. Only the most naive understanding of military history could lead one to the opinion that having a powerful military assures success in peace once the war is one.

So is it the US's fault that Saddam isn't there? Yes. Is the US oppressing anyone? Of course not-- it's trying to do the exact opposite, and failing at it.

You still haven't given me your definition of opression. You just linked me to a wiki article. Please provide me, briefly, with the exact definition you use when you say this word.--Urthogie 14:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I see, so the problem is that the poor invader is just too nice, and the Iraqi people are just too much barbarians, not civilized, and that is why there is so much death and killing, eh? If only the US were more brutal then the country would be stabalized, again? This reminds me of the old Imperialists "white man's burden" outlook. You even say:"They are not capable of living peacefully without an oppressive tribal dictatorship" I disagree and find your thinking extremely naive as it pertains not noble but mistaken US motives and policies, and your view of the Iraqi people even bit racist. We agree we are talking about over 655,000 dead, constituting 2.4% of the population in Iraq. Using the same 2.4 percent on US population, it amounts to 6.72 million dead in the US. Yet, its because the US is being too nice? And, we do care?! Then why is there more torture in Iraq now (on an official level under the US puppet govt) than during Saddam's rule, if our occupation is not infact itself extremely brutal? The fact is the US didn’t care about security issues as it pertains the interests of the safety of the common people as much as they did care about securing control of the oil and establishing a base, as a test trial run invasion to maintain control of the M.E. It wasn't just lack of planning it was negligence according to priorities. The same reason why destroyed their safe drinking water and other basics, and even today its not up to the level it was during the pre-invasion conditions. This is indifference to things that didn't matter to them, such as the lives of the people. Much like how Israel will drop bombs on civilian areas. The US destabilized their country, disbanded their police and military, decimated through tons of bombs their infrastructure, and then neglected it and failed to put anything workable in its place--but its their fault their society is being torn part?

I do not believe that having a powerful military assures success. Imperialists are paper tigers and they don't have the ability to keep the masses of a country in revolt under their yoke for long. Empires are doomed to fail because they can't stand up to the spirit and determination of people to be free. And in the ultimate analysis, its people, not things, that are decisive. But, the question is, who is to blame for the violence in Iraq, including the sectarian violence? You blame the Iraqi's people themselves (like Bush). This is blaming the victims. I think this is backwards. The president try’s to blame the Iraqi people for their complete social breakdown the US destrucive forced destabilized the social fabric and basic infrastructure of the country? Not tenable. The responsibility rests with the occupation, and invasion, on the US for the bloodshed and continuing bloodshed. Just by looking the history and basis for the divisions, like other tribal divisions, we find the hand of colonialism implicated. Saddame Hussein’s own rule was the result of US imperialism (if you recall the CIA helped to put the Bath party in power in a coup in 1968, and involved in 1963), and supported the regime, esp. in the 80's. The current sectarian violence is also largely the result of the stage created by the US invasion. Sure, divisions and mistrust predates the US invasion but in the absence of a US invasion and in the absence of a dictator, we would not see the levels of violence we see today. This is because those who support the US invasion now become traitors. Before, families among different "enemy' tribes inter-married. Now they are divided as a result of the US invasion, with most Iraqi's wanting the US out, and saying that it’s worse off with the US there then without, including the sectarian violence. I'm sure you've seen the polls. A large majority of Iraqis -- 71% --want US-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less. Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent. This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks. More broadly, 79 percent of Iraqis say that the US is having a negative influence on the situation in Iraq, with just 14 percent saying that it is having a positive influence. Asked what effect it would have “if US-led forces withdraw from Iraq in the next six months,” 58 percent overall say that violence would decrease. Some 78 per cent of all Iraqis think the US military presence provokes more conflict than it prevents and 71 per cent want US-led forces out of Iraq within a year. But, you know more than those who live there, right?

You will notice that I did not get into the details of the above arguments to support some of my claims with details, which will take more time that I have. However, you can find these details in arguments from the following articles: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=3369 How the US set the stage for sectarian violence and encourages it: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=11948 http://quebec.indymedia.org/en/node/23750?PHPSESSID=b54265b1c98b367c670a9c1a70e94f60

As far as defining oppression, come on. Look at the first two paragraphs of the article on it, and then look up Imperialism. This is how I define and understand it. What objections do you have to these concepts as applied to this situation?Giovanni33 01:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"This reminds me of the old Imperialists "white man's burden" outlook. You even say:"They are not capable of living peacefully without an oppressive tribal dictatorship" I disagree and find your thinking extremely naive, and a bit racist, even."

It's funny how you were the first to bring race into the subject, and then accused me of being racist. No, the color of skin has nothing to do with a culture that is based on tribal divisions. But I suppose that accusing me of racism is a lot easier than actually arguing logically against my point. Anyways, moving on...

"We are talking about over 655,000 dead, which constituts 2.4% of the population in Iraq."

Do you really think I don't know how much they're killing each other because of our stupid failed occupation?

"Yes, its because the US is being too nice? Then why is there more torture in Iraq now (on an official level under the US puppet govt) than during Saddam's rule?"

Saddam has killed more people as a head of state than the US has killed in its entire war. That's a crazy fact: a leader who killed more of his own people than were ever killed by the occupier! Read: Human_rights_in_Saddam's_Iraq. There was more torture by Saddam's Iraq than by US troops. There was more killing by Saddam's Iraq than by US troops. Therefore, you have just lied: "Then why is there more torture in Iraq now than during Saddam's rule".

"The fact is the US didn’t care about security issues as it pertains the interests of the people as much as they did securing control of the oil and establishing a base, as a test trial run invasion to maintain control of the M.E"

This was likely their intention but they failed at it because of poor military planning. They have actually lost more control in the Middle East as a result of this war-- they have strengthened the religious tribal movements in the area.

"It wasn't lack of planning. It was indifference to things that didn't matter to them, such as the lives of the people."

OK, so lets take your position for a second. "The sole reason they're there is money and power." Then wouldn't it be in the interest of their greed to, I d'know, make money from a stable Iraq? To get power from a stable stronghold in the middle east that wasn't a stronghold of Islamic terror? The US wants submissive, oil-rich puppet countries. A full blown islamic mass movement, unrestricted by government, does not help US interests in the region. It's pretty basic logic. And I think your own reasoning counters itself.

"Much like how Israel will drop bombs on civilian areas"

What you fail to recognize is that states like Israel benefit from less terrorism. Why would they want to create a new generation of terrorists? Is there any concrete gain from bombing a civillian area? The poorer and angrier they are, the more likely Israel will be threatened. That's an established fact among counter-terrorists. You seem to have this myth in your head that randomly bombing citizens is what liberal democracies try to do, for apparently no reason but to create more terrorists. I can't blame you though, as you're constantly misinformed by the likes of Chomsky and Finkelstein.

"Empires are doomed to fail because they can't stand up to the spirit and determination of people to be free."

In the abstract I agree with this statement. But I don't agree with extending its logic to everything an empire does. The individual Iraqi citizen surely craves democracy. But Iraq's population, as a whole, does not. People join tribalistic groups and kill each other to run away from the prospect of freedom-- its actually a scary concept when you haven't had it for generations. The nazis, for example, often praised hitler because he made them "free from freedom". Your understanding of human nature is overly simplistic, and incredible similar to the Bush doctrine-- everyone is ready for democracy. Yeah, right. <-- bullshit

"You blame the Iraqi's people themselves (like Bush)."

No, I blame America. I made this clear already. It was a foolish war to get into because the Iraqi people are not capable of democracy at this point in time.

"This is blaming the victims."

First off, you have to recognize that the real oppressors at this point are the militant Iraqis. They were a bunch of rattlesnakes kept in check by an evil dictator. The true victims-- the average Iraqi people who are not killing anyone-- deserve no blame whatsoever. Only the US, for opening up the country, and the insurgents, for ruining it with their tribal and religious conflicts.

"Sure, divisions and mistrust predates the US invasion but in the absence of a US invasion and in the absence of a dictator, we would not see the levels of violence we see today."

Yes. I already made clear I oppose the entire idea of the Iraqi invasion. But I also oppose your whole myth that the US is oppressing anyone.

"I'm sure you've seen the polls. A large majority of Iraqis -- 71% --want US-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less. Support for attacks against US-led forces has increased sharply to 61 percent. This represents a 14-point increase from January 2006, when only 47 percent of Iraqis supported attacks. More broadly, 79 percent of Iraqis say that the US is having a negative influence on the situation in Iraq, with just 14 percent saying that it is having a positive influence. Asked what effect it would have “if US-led forces withdraw from Iraq in the next six months,” 58 percent overall say that violence would decrease. Some 78 per cent of all Iraqis think the US military presence provokes more conflict than it prevents and 71 per cent want US-led forces out of Iraq within a year. But, you know more than those who live there, right?"

Uh..this is the definition of a straw man argument. I agree compeltely that its a failed war and the US is making the problem worse. You wasted a paragraph, I don't know why. I'm sure the Iraqis would love to hear your theory about how Saddam's rule tortured more people than the US, though :)

"ZMag"

I don't read publications by the New Left or by neo conservatives (they're basically opposites). Convince me with mainstream sources.--Urthogie 02:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I misunderstood your possition. But, since you blame the US for causing the increase in violence, sectarian violence included, then we don't have a disagreement on this point. However, your conclusion is that the US is not an oppressor even though they are to blame because it was not their intention but just incompentance in unleashing the "rattlesnakes." But, even if its just negligence and not intentional, is not culpability the same, esp. when one can reasonably expect this to happen based on intellgence reports? If I go into your house and open up a basket of deadly snakes and the snakes end up biting your family and killing them, but I was just careless and didn't think twice about the result--I just wanted to steal your goods in your house (and come back to steal more later), am I off the hook morally any less than if had I planned it? But, I will argue my original point, even though I can see how it seems contradictory. Imperialism frequently does backfire and usually has negative spill over effects based on some gambles but serves intelligent and purposeful imperialist goals, and does ultimately fail. They are doomed to fail, but they have their own logic and dynamics that drive them to their own grave. Right now I need to leave the office and go home and take care of things so making this case will have to wait.

About the articles, yes, they from the New Left, however they cite mainstream sources. I don't discount them off hand. The BBC article below is mainstream enough, which is where I had the impression that tourture in Iraq is WORSE then it was under Hussein. It makes this point and this is according to an even-handed senior UN official, who is the chief anti-torture expert, so its expert opinion. See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1878099,00.html and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5368360.stm I suppose you will counter that even though it may be worse, this tourture includes sectarian violance, and we are back to the original point of dispute.Giovanni33 03:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• "I suppose you will counter that even though it may be worse, this tourture includes sectarian violance, and we are back to the original point of dispute." Earlier you said, "Yet, its because the US is being too nice? And, we do care?! Then why is there more torture in Iraq now (on an official level under the US puppet govt) than during Saddam's rule, if our occupation is not infact itself extremely brutal?" It seems like you've switched your view somewhat... earlier, you were saying the problem was "oppression" and you were sarcastically claiming the US was being too nice. Now it seems as though you recognize the problem was the ensuing chaos of the insurgents as a result of our failed military operation. So I don't feel as though we're going in circles. Perhaps we're getting somewhere, and can soon move on to the more contentious subject of Israel, using this as a launching point for analyzing that issue.

Oppression is not defined as ineptitude, but rather as unjust squashing of one's enemy. This is what Saddam did, but not the US. The US just failed in its mission and ruined hundreds of thousands of lives through its ineptitude.

• "But, I will argue my original point, even though I can see how it seems contradictory." The reason you insist on arguing your original point despite it seeming contradictory is because you are tied to the idea that everything is related to evil imperialism, and can't recognize that sometimes the failed means of government have a bigger effect on history than the government's ends. As I said before, this is a microcosm in the flaws of your argument about Israel-- which, unlike the US is pursuing a program of security rather than expansion and wealth. The flaws that it makes in this process are entirely unintentional. Like the US, Israel needs serious criticism, but it doesn't need more of this vilifaction as "imperialist, colonialist" that you offer, adding nearly no insight whatsoever into the depth of the conflict, and the various shades of gray that characterize it.

• Your metaphor about the snakes ignores the fact of the dictator. I'd rather have you steal from my house if you're gonna kill the murderer that's there. Assuming you can deal with the snakes, of course. The only problem is that america couldn't deal with the snakes, and wasn't even capable of it, and therefore never should have gone. it's going was not oppression. was it greedy/evil? sure. was it an effort to oppress the iraqis? no-- just the opposite. And that is a good microcosm of the complexity of history, politics, and current events that is distorted by the interpretations of the New Left.--Urthogie 03:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I think our disagreement centers on the concept of "inept" as it pertains to US military actions. So lets forget about arguing about what oppression means and imperialism (and other loaded, charged words) and try to focus on some practical points. I ask to consider the difference of an actor who engaged in a kind of reckless neglect and lack of concern/care for the cost to civilians vs. intentional klling of them? I agree, its not directly intentional in the way that someone who just wanted to kill the people for the sake of their death, but then again, its not innocent error, either. "Inept" in this circumstance is the kind of neglect that has predicable knowlege of the consequences, and thus, is just as bad as if it the people were intentionally targeted. Its an academic distinction without a difference when the lives of the people are concerned: dead is dead.

True, the law distinguishes between premeditated murder and accidental killing. But, consider a "mens rea" analysis of criminal law. To quote law professor Michael Tonry:

::"An action taken with a purpose to kill is no more culpable than an action taken with some other purpose in mind but with knowledge that a death will probably result. Blowing up an airplane to kill a passenger is equivalent to blowing up an airplane to destroy a fake painting and thereby to defraud an insurance company, knowing that the passengers will be killed. Both are murder. Most people would find the latter killing more despicable" (Malign Neglect, p. 32)."

And both are murder even if the bomber regretted the fact that innocent passengers had to die in the second example. Nor would the bomber be absolved if he expressed regret for the slaughtered passengers and then did the same thing again and again. Or say the bomber doesn't know that passengers will be killed -- the bomb may go off in the luggage hold before the passengers board -- but is indifferent to the passengers' fate. Knowlege and intent are both morally and legally cupable states of mind. Reckless abandon as the kind we saw with the US invasion of Iraq to the concerns of the welfare of the people of Iraq, even if caused by what you say is "ineptitude" is not innocent. They were warned that this could if not would happen and proceeded anyway, even criminally with respect to international law. Its not innocent error and there is no practical difference between it and death and suffering caused by direct design to oppress people with intent to do so.

Admittedly the U.S./Israeli military could easily kill more civilians if it wanted to. But that doesn't refute the claim that there is a morally unacceptable disregard for the lives of civllians (the basket of snakes being opened). Is it worse to kill a person eagerly than out of indifference? If I robbed your house but didnt care about the mess I'd cause, including leaving behind the deadly outcome of my actions (knocking over the basket of deadly snakes), wouldnt this be the same as if I had planned to release the snakes if I could be expected to have known that my actions would result in the same? When you look at the kind of war the US waged, the kind of weapons it used alone (no matter the military failure)--we have to conclude that it held the civilian population in low regard, and found "acceptable" a large number of deaths. The same goes for how Israel treats the Palestinian people its in state-terrorism aimed against the resistance fighters within the occupation terroritories.

So, let's assume that civilians are not being targeted. It doesn't matter. The first wave of attacks by the US reportedly consisted largely of "dumb" bombs dropped or launched from long distances, and even current "smart" bombs hit their targets only 70 to 80 percent of the time. So our leaders know full well that the bombs will kill innocent people, indeed admit as much. By the principles of our criminal law, they are therefore just as culpable for these deaths as they would be if innocents were targeted. For details of this point see: http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/sep02herman.html Giovanni33 01:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You use several very deceptive metaphors. The US did not "blow up the plane" of Iraq. It simply attempted to defraud the insurance company, and then some crazy terrorists blew up the plane in the havoc that ensued. Now, on the surface, it's arguable that the US, with its multi billion (trillion?) dollar military budget, should have seen this coming in the planning phases. This view is not entirely unreasonable; it is in part supported by the obvious lies and misrepresentations that the US made to our nation and to the rest of the world as the Bush administration pursued the Iraq war.

However, what this view ignores is that the Bush administration is composed of people who are experts at misleading people, but who are utter failures when it comes to organizing a war. The Bush Administration not only stifled evidence that there were no WMD's, they also stifled views that clearly showed the Iraqi's would not welcome them with open arms. This is why I ascribe the situation to the inept pursuit of somewhat moral goals, rather than to the malicious pursuit of immoral goals. Although what you said was merely a metaphor, it exposes your prejudice when it comes to judging the US (and one can logically infer, Israel... but we'll get to that later, I suppose).

Now, about "robbing my house". If you want to break in with the plan of killing who ever has kidnapped me, go ahead. Go ahead and "steal" from me-- if by that you mean setting up a non-genocidal capitalist puppet government. It's a well known fact that stable puppet capitalist governments have a much better quality of life for their citizens than do stable genocidal dictatorships. The central issue, then, is of course the issue of stability.

Now, it's clearly not in the US's interest to have knocked down that basket of snakes. You might respond by observing how much it helps Halliburton or the weapons industry, but this is a very superficial and short term analysis. As far as power and money-- which is what the American government presumably wants-- the terrorists are extremely bad news in the long-term. I don't think I even need to explain why several Islamist mass movements gaining a huge amount of steam in the region is not good for our interests in the Middle East, or why having all of our troops stuck in Iraq makes it very difficult to flex our muscles at other foreign policy concerns like North Korea and Afghanistan (which seems to have been a failure as well).

It's simply a foolish mission that was poorly planned. That's what it comes down to. It had selfish goals that were actually also in the interest of the Iraqis. Poor military planning is what has caused all of these problems.

If the "dumb" bombs would have been part of a complex, comprehensive military strategy that would actually have toppled Saddam and brought peace afterwards, I would of course support them. In my view, a just war is one which minimizes civillian casualties. The "dumb" bombs, had they been part of a comprehensive, successful military strategy, would actually have saved more lives from Saddam then they had taken away from their explosions.

As you can see, a detached, logical analysis of the issue leads to a much more nuanced criticism of the situation and what led us there. What further disagreements might you have with my assesment of the Iraq war?--Urthogie 02:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Christianity

Please stop the edit war as they never end nicely and any reasonable discussions get lost in the crossfire. Sophia 16:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Nazism and religion and Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you.

You are already in clear violation of WP:3RR - take a break before you get blocked. - WeniWidiWiki 18:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you show me where I have violated the 3RR rule? I don't believe I have. I, along with others, are simply removing original research, which the other party keeps replacing. I have already discussed and made clear on the talk pages the reasons why the text in question is unacceptable per the norms and standards of Misplaced Pages, and the other party has not addressed the problems (only make a small word change). I think that NPOV and OR, V, are more important rules than edit warring, provided that the latter is in service of the former, and provided that I do not violate the 3RR rule. Unverified, and Original Research, and violations of NPOV, should always be removed to protect the integrity of the project, even if it entails some unavoidable edit warring.Giovanni33 18:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Diff1, Diff2, Diff3. It is always better to have an RfC in instances such as this to get outside feedback and consensus, especially since the section you are removing is sourced. Discussion takes more than a unilateral statement on a talk page and summary removal. You could argue that the placement is undue weight or a fringe idea, etc. If you take the time to start an RfC and both sides make a statement I'll definitely give my opinion - right now all I see is edit-warring. - WeniWidiWiki 19:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree. This will be my next step to try to resolve this edit dispute. The the reverts are there, but I thought the rule was not MORE than three reverts. So, I don't think I violated the 3RR.Giovanni33 19:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for joinging the straw poll and clearly stating your position. It is honestly appreciated. Vassyana 23:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I think maybe we should request an RfC or mediation. It seems like the consensus was that the topic should be minimized from the solicitation for opinions I posted. Or perhaps just politely point out on the talk page that consensus leaned towards minimizing that section. What do you think? Vassyana 03:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Request

See and my request for you to follow that idea as well. Agathoclea 00:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup, I certainly agree with that idea. Thanks for pointing it out. It was getting crazy. :)Giovanni33 00:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Per this admin's request, I am notifying you of WP:RFAR action

Per this admin's request, I am notifying you of WP:RFAR action.

Even though I am not seeking the action against you, nonethheless, you are a party, and rules require that I notify you. Observe:

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#GordonWatts

--GordonWatts 07:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

userlinks

You might want to use {{user5}} instead - less controversial. Agathoclea 21:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!Giovanni33 21:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

gonna reply?

If so, reply to what I said below this, so that the section doesn't get too long.--Urthogie 23:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Still no response.--Urthogie 03:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yawn

No. Because I agreed to keep the bit about him leading China. I made other edits in the meantime. As to the rest, you're being extremely petty if you want that trivial stuff changed back. John Smith's 00:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Outstanding original quote award

		The dialectical interplay of this matter-in-motion
		Awarded for outstanding original quote. El_C 21:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

3RR?

No, I'm not. I reverted vandalism which does not count - you know this because you were told that when you commented on another report made against me. It's also on the 3RR rules page - so I've only made 3 reverts. Check for yourself on the CR page history. John Smith's 23:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33 22:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Article name

Hi Gio, are you aware of this article Pagan influences on Christianity? I'm not too happy about the name as it falls into the "heretic" trap as it's a name given to non Christians by Christians. I'm pretty stumped for an alternative but thought you might have ideas. Maybe something that highlighted the synthesis aspects of early christianity. Thanks for your help. Sophia 07:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Notification of arbitration case

I have attempted to open an arbitration case involving you, please see . Please don't be offended that I said you have a "history of edit warring", that is a statement of fact, and I bare no ill will towards you at all. I just want to see an end to the constant arguments between you and John Smith's, as I am sure you do. Thank you. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 22:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

While I appreciate your efforts and I assume good faith, I do take exception to your adding, "I am attempting this RfAr not only to attempt to see some resolution of the conflict between them, but also to seek guidance on Giovanni33's repeated history of edit warring across multiple articles." It may be a fact but its no less a fact that is true of John Smith. But, you only mention me, which is one-sided, I think, and unfair.Giovanni33 23:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That's because I can remember you edit warring in the past, but John Smith's is relatively new. I will add words to my statement to explain as such. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 23:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

*Bangs head* Apologies, I thought he was a new user. Thank you very much for pointing this out to me. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 23:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I have modified my statement. I'm sorry about that mixup, it was a mistake and bad assumption on my part. --Deskana (fry that thing!) 00:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I do appreciate that. I know we had a history of some conficts and edit waring in the past in the Christinaity related articles, but I've learned from my past mistakes and avoid such errors; I often times now just walk away from such content disputes. The edit waring with John Smith is in a different category, I think.Giovanni33 00:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is it a different category? Why can't you just walk away? John Smith's 19:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Because you follow me around, it seems just to edit war with me. So, walking away is non tenable in such a situation.Giovanni33 19:55, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I follow you around? You seem to be forgetting you were doing exactly what you're accusing me of a while ago. If you walk away I will not follow you onto articles I have no interest in. Go on - try it. Call my bluff. Go back to your philosophy/religion pages and we'll see what happens. John Smith's 20:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you going back to following me? I called your bluff and it appears I was right. An article you've never been to before, your first edit is to go an undo an edit I made: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=State_terrorism_by_the_United_States&diff=131750400&oldid=131729196 Giovanni33 19:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not to the same thing. I happen to go to one article only that you were on in which I have not been on before. What is your count? Three or four.Giovanni33 20:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You "happen" to go? Since when did you have an interest in naval technology? Be honest - you were following my edits.

Anyway, I find it strange you're playing a numbers game. Also we've been having disputes for a long time - you could have walked away many times.

I'll say it again - call my bluff. Or is the real reason you won't because you actually don't want to walk away? That's what it seems like me. I think you know that if you walked away you wouldn't hear from me again, but you're trying to pretend you "can't" to gain sympathy from other people. John Smith's 21:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I will, if you will, in the future. As of now, we should settle and find a resolution to the current issues given we have both invested a lot of time discussing them.Giovanni33 22:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Rfcs

As requested by yourself and the arbitrators, I have filed Rfcs on the matters we are in dispute with. Please leave your comments here, here and here. John Smith's 10:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as a note, can you please remember to express your comments on the other pages too when you have the time? Otherwise the RfCs will fail (I believe all parties have to involve themselves) and arbitration will have to be considered. Thanks, John Smith's 21:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Xiaodingjin

Xiaodingjin was warned by John Smith's to look at External Links policy, and he was also told to discuss his edits instead of just re-inserting his link. He had a good amount of time to read policy and to heed the warnings, but he failed to do so. If you feel the link is appropriate, then you may add it back, but I wouldn't be surprised if it would result in a content dispute later on. Nishkid64 23:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but that is the problem. Since John Smith told him, he probably did not take him seriously. I think he deserves a second chance, or there should be more of a community consensus about perm banning him. I also think that protecting the article against anon IP's will take care of a lot of the distruptions.Giovanni33 23:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I will semi-protect the page, but your idea about getting community consensus for a perm-ban seems a bit in excess. Permanent blocks are handed out on a daily basis, and that's why administrators are entrusted to issue them in the first place. Anyway, page protected now--hopefully that will solve some problems. Nishkid64 (talk) 23:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, please forward the email to me. If other users are in support of the link, then it can be added to the EL section. However, as I stated before, Xiao was sufficiently warned and was even blocked by me for 24 hours because of his edit warring and 3RR violation. I'm not sure if I would unblock him, but I'll decide later on. Nishkid64 (talk) 23:52, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'll forward the email to you. I'm sure something can be worked out to save him as a potencially vaulable contributor to the project.Giovanni33 00:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, you both need to take a break from getting into these heated and unproductive "discussions". Mudslinging is not going to do anything, so I suggest you both ignore the Xiaodingjin matter for now, and just focus on the article. Remember, we're not here to get in arguments over useless matters. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.Giovanni33 20:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Xiaodingjin is unblocked now, by the way. Thanks again for forwarding the emails to me. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Nishkid64, and you're very welcome. I'll advice him to ask before acting so as to stay out of trouble.Giovanni33 20:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Warning issued to John Smith and myself

Regarding your warning, Nishkid, I wan to thank you for your well considered and, apparently needed, intervention in this matter. I hope it works to reverse the recent trends. I have tried to avoid interaction and not responding, hence my removal of his constant messages to my talk page. I'll be extra careful to be extra civil, at least with my own conduct, which is all I really can control anyway. Thanks again.Giovanni33 21:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Nero

The section above says it: Enough! We shouldn't be spamming the article talk page. Therefore I move the discussion (or rather the postings, I have no interest in discussing this) to your talk page, as you seem to enjoy it. Str1977 22:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I agree with your desired edits here but we probably disagree as for the reasons. As to the fictional nature of the Bible and NT, I stand by that statement. It's a product of recycled myths that have been stripped of the more blatantly mystical parts and situated in more familiar geographical settings to ensure greater acceptability in an increasingly more skeptical world. So there is some historical value in these stories, parables and legends but they are on the whole fictional creations, fantastic propaganda, written by many unknown authors as far as a century or more after the events they describe, and not supported by secular sources--sales manuals for the new Christianity. You are correct there are different schools of thought on the matter, but the question of reliability encompasses the POV that the NT can be properly describing as a work of fiction. Its not your POV, but it is a legitimate POV. I refer to the radical school of New Testament scholarship, which is a part of the broader movement of critical New Testament studies. An example of such myths is the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh. Scholars draw what they describe as striking parallels between this account of a human sage and his interaction with the gods and the narrative of Jesus' life, and assert that both the myth and the gospel accounts derive from a common source of legends involving such supernatural beings as Osiris, Horus, Bacchus and Eanabi, in which virgin births, risings from the dead, journeys between Heaven and Earth, seclusion in wildernesses and celestial events in the wake of births, all feature as embroidery on an earnest recounting of events that never took place. For this POV, see: And: For those who wish to hold onto these alleged events based on faith, that is fine, too, but my reading of the evidence makes me fall into the camp that describes it as mostly fictional.Giovanni33 19:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I feel a bit sorry for that fact that your atheist faith is so weak that you need the most fringe views to bolster this weakness. However, I have no time for this. Good day, Str1977 20:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't incorporate faith, but facts. "Atheist faith" is an oxymoron, whist religious faith is a redundency. Religious beliefs must rely on faith because they lack evidence and are counter to logic and known laws of nature. When faith is all you have, I call that extreme weakness, and because the nature of faith is blind, the potencial danger of this type of thinking for those that adopt it, underscores this weakness. Therefore, the feeling of being sorry properly belongs for those trapped in its grip--not with atheists who rationally and correctly reject supernatural claims that are seemingly irrational without some very good evidence other than "faith." No disrespect intended, of course, and have a good day too.Giovanni33 21:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No disrespect intended but I believe and I know it. You believe but you do not know it. Actually you kid yourself into believing that you know. Faith is not opposed to logic nor to laws of nature (but it may go beyond it) - actually laws of nature already require faith. Who tells you that the sun will rise tomorrow? You do not doubt it because you have faith. And rightfully so. As for your atheist beliefs, you made a few positive statements that I would consider quite unreasonable. You don't have proof for them - you go by belief as well. Last time I looked you even had a creed like statement (by Mr Gould) on your user page. But never mind, keep your faith, I'll keep mine. Let's keep this talk page free from our squibbles. Str1977 22:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you have a confusion of scientific theories and the meaning of faith. The fact is that scientific theories (including its physical laws of nature) are always tentative in that we do not know for sure, but we can logically assume them to be true and hence believe logically. But we are always testing, always looking to see what makes best sense. If there is new evidence which no longer conforms to theory, then we disgard the theory or alter it to make it fit the best understanding of all the evidence. The degree of belief is likewise tied to actual evidence, with very strong theories conforming to everything we know (very strong and consistent evidence) termed "laws," followed by theories, and hypothesis.This is what my beliefs are based on--not faith. Faith is a belief that is maintained DESPITE the evidence, and/or without any evidence. That makes it not logical. My belief that the sun will come up tomorrrow, on the other hand, is prefectly reasonable based on logical assumption of all the evidence we have, based on theories that are supported by observations, etc. I could elaborate more on the difference of these kinds of beliefs, if need be, but I think most understand the difference, including you. Assumptions we all must make, true, but there is a world of difference between a scientific methodology and a religious one. Only the latter requires faith.Giovanni33 22:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh "we" are always testing too. The experiment is just not finished. It is you who is going against the evidence, especially in the issue of the historicity of Jesus. But what do I care that you are making a fool of yourself. Str1977 22:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you are still in the testing phase. I had thought I read that you said you 'know" already.:) I hope the "tests" adopt scientific protocol, i.e. double blind controls, observation, etc., and logical principals such as occams razor. Giovanni33 23:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure after such tests you would be forced to disgard the beliefs that don't hold up, and then join me. hehe Giovanni33 23:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I could tell you about that you should better read comments properly before you talk about me knowing. Or about how using faulty methodology dragged over from another field will not yield good results. Or that Occam was a (shock, horror, evil, evil) Catholic monkfriar. But I guess that I shall better leave you to your island xylophone. Str1977 23:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, now we come back to the real point and issue. What you call "faulty methodology" is none other than the methods of science, yes? Am I right? And, somehow scientific methods simply don't apply in this other "field." How convenient. Science is a method to find out the truth of the world around us. It is not restricted to only some "fields." You say they don't apply? Could that be because they prove that you lack evidence, and your beliefs are based on faith, not evidence? Just admit it.:)As I said that is fine, but don't make the claim that atheist beliefs are "weak" when the reverse is the case. Giovanni33 23:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and about Occam, no, he was not evil, although I'd say that for the Catholic Church heiarchy to force him to flee for frear imprisonment and execution for charges of "heresy" is the quite evil thing. Agree? Luckily, Ockham was only excommunicated, not murdered or tourtured like so many thousands of others who fell victim to the intolerance, inhumanity, and dogmatism of this religious institution, empowered by the State. And, yes, that that is indeed full of "shock, horror, evil, evil," as you put it. Giovanni33 05:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The methodology of natural science does indeed apply to natural science, not to history or philosophy, things you seem to be quite in the dark about. And indeed I feel sorrow for those tortured and killed by my own (but also for those killed by your buddy Mao) and even for William. However, indeed he was a heretic, but his errors were in no way as absurd as those of your ideology.

PS. And yes, I removed the falsified line again. Do not change the conversation afterwards. Or, if you want to, you should apply for a job here. Str1977 06:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

We are talking the scientific method, here. You say it does not apply to history? Wrong. Have you heard of something called the social sciences? History belongs in it. See History. Natural sciences study nature, and social sciences comprise a group of academic disciplines that study human aspects of the world. The line between the traditional "soft" and "hard" sciences is not hard fast, either. Both employ the scientific method. If you make a claim about the nature of reality around us, its history, you will use a method that is consistent with the principals and practices of science, which again are just based on logical principals, accepting that material reality around us and trusting our senses to make the best understanding we can through logical experimentation, observation, testing, etc. The theory must conform to the evidence, not the other way around. Note that the method of science incorporates only methodological naturalism, and thus does not assume the non-existence of supernatural causes as would be the case for ontological naturalism. It investigates everything according to logical princials. Perhaps you should talk about your method, and then we shall see the error of its ways, lending to the error of your conclusions. P.S. adding a line to complete a thought is not changing conversations. If it in any way impacts your response, then amend your response accordingly.Giovanni33 08:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Resetting indent — nothing to do with me, but since you're both squabbling over the fact that Giovanni wrote something and Str1977 replied to it and then Giovanni added an extra line to the original and Str1977 removed it (suggesting that it could be placed elsewhere) as he didn't want it to look as if his original and intact reply was to Giovanni's modified post, and Giovanni reverted him, etc. etc. etc., why not try to find a compromise? You know, um, show the moral superiority of Christians who don't unnecessarily antagonise atheists — or do I mean the moral superiority of atheists who don't unnecessarily antagonise Christians?

I certainly wouldn't make an issue out of it, but I've seen administrators enforcing Str1977's position in a slightly different context — that of deleting something you've already written which other people have replied to. Apparently the correct thing is to strike it through. So it makes sense that an addition to a post that someone has already responded to should be shown in some way to be an addition. Accordingly, though without any real interest, I've modified the thread to show Giovanni's post as a separate post, indented further than Str1977's reply, and with the correct timestamp, since it was not correct as it stood. The original post was at 23:01; the addition was at 23:12. Anyway, as I say, it's nothing to do with me, and I don't intend to fight the issue. ElinorD (talk) 08:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense to me, and I don't see how Str can object to the way it reads now. May we both strive to be as wise as you've shown yourself to be here.:)Giovanni33 08:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

Right, I have filed a formal request for mediation. I would appreciate it if you could sign "agree" so we can move on and have these problems resolved. John Smith's 10:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Request filed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story John Smith's 10:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, you have to sign off on it or it will be taken you rejected it. After all you are still editing wikipedia. It doesn't exactly take long to do - if you're serious about mediation you will take the opportunity. John Smith's 22:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Cheers. John Smith's 18:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

A Request for Mediation to which you are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story. For the Mediation Committee, ^demon This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to open new mediation cases. If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Would you guys please work it out somewhere other than the 3rr noticeboard? Tom Harrison 00:07, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly my sentiment.Giovanni33 00:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Totally disputed on State terrorism by the United States

I still think the tagline needs to be totally disputed; you reverted this unintentionally, I think. Yaf 01:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was not intentional. I'll restore it. Thanks.Giovanni33 01:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story

Good evening (GMT time); just a little note that Mediation has commenced on the above case, and is being held at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story. Your input is essential, and the other party has already became involved.

Further instructions are provided at the mediation location, and if you have any questions, don't hesitate to drop me a message at my talk page (or by any other method listed here).

Kindest regards,
Anthøny 20:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC) testGiovanni33 18:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring

How many times do you need to be blocked before you learn why we have a three revert rule...it's to prevent edit wars. Read the policy...if you revert again, I'll report it.--MONGO 19:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I did not violate the 3RR rule, and you are edit warring. I have asked that we stop the reverts until we have some consensus to the contested changes.Giovanni33 19:14, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Giovanni. What you keep adding severly violates NOR and indeed, you have violated 3RR. Therefore, you have been cautioned. I'm considering an afd anyway.--MONGO 19:39, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I double checked and I have not violated 3RR so that is not true. If I have show me the differences. I have reverted three time, just as you have. And, what I have added are referenced statements whose claims are supported by the sources that we should be reporting on. There is no OR, or SYn as I've shown on the talk page.Giovanni33 05:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:3RR

Giovanni, I have reported you for another 3RR violation here--MONGO 20:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Missed message

Hey, just thought I'd tell you that a user has added a message for you to one of your archives. Cheers. --Michael Billington (talk) 11:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

ARI

You might want to look at what's going on at Ayn Rand Institute. ThAtSo 17:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk:State terrorism by the United States

Hi. Can you please keep it on-topic? Thanks. --John 19:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yup, but that is what I've been asking everyone else to do with no improvement. So, can't beat them....although I only made one comment about their off topic discussion. I do hope your are telling the others to keep it on topic because I really want to get issues settled with that article and this mis-use of the talk page is causes us all to go no where fast. I even reverted some off topic trolling but they insisted to keep it back, which was a big waste of time, a distraction, and ultimately distruptive.Giovanni33 21:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

"So, can't beat them...." See WP:POINT Dman727 22:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I was not making a point. I was saying I gave up trying to get others to follow the rules, so since that has been allowed, then I might as well join in with my own off topic comment. Its a question of what is accepted and not having double standards.Giovanni33 23:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Better to behave well and set a high standard for others to follow. If you want to discuss another user's history, there are other places to discuss that.--John 01:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I stand corrected.Giovanni33 17:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this what you were wondering about btw? ^^James^^ 03:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, James. I might find it interesting reading, a break from the norm.Giovanni33 17:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Incorporating each other's edits

If you had looked more closely, you might have seen I worked to incorporate and nicely format some of your recent additions, and was doing more until I was stopped by an edit conflict - your revert of my changes, including formating and spelling corrections, accompanied by an edit summary condemning me for reverting. Please try to work with others. It is pointless to try to edit by reverting. It would probably be better to just use the edit summary to briefly describe your edit instead of crowing about what a bad example I set. Anyway, I'm done for tonight. Cheers, Tom Harrison 03:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that is what you were doing, and I take great objection to your comment that I should "work with others!" That is exactly what I was doing, and you FAILED to do. Fact: I worked hard to incorporate most of the many changes by the other side, even those I disagreed with. I addded changes I have discussed on talk, and opened up a new section to discuss the changes I made and why, and asked that we discuss this, working forward on more compromises. But what do I get instead for all this effort to work with others? Only to be reverted blindly no less than 2 mins later, staying that other version was better, clearer, etc.--when 2 minutes was not even enough time to consider my edits! No one can read that fast. What you reverted to was just the same old version, whiping out all my edits, except for three additional references I added. And, I'm sorry you did join in with this very poor edit editing behavior that in my opinion is not becoming an administrator.. I am done for tonight, as well.Giovanni33 03:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi Giovanni. I've noticed you've not commented on Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story yet. Since it's been about three weeks since mediation started, and mediation requires all parties involved to co-operate, I was wondering if you were going to comment? Mediation would be preferable to ArbCom, after all. Do you intend to comment there? Thanks for your time. --Deskana (talk) 16:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was going to but last time I checked the whole thing was postponed. If its back up, then I'll comment there today. Thanks for letting me know.Giovanni33 19:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The mediator is currently unavailable but commenting now before he gets back may help speed up the process. :-) --Deskana (talk) 19:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

thanks for helping in your latest edits! someone has to watch certain editors from blanking articles for their own POV I really appreciate your attention.Esmehwp 15:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI

just wanted to let you know that there are certain editors who have very narrow POV's and have been POV pushing for years now and do not act in good faith also they will spend most of their time on WP and force good faith editors into never ending discussions which only serve to wear them down these editors often can not be reasoned with as they treat WP as an adverserial arena where they, having a lot of free time will always beat any good faithed editor into giving up and moving on, i have found the best way to stop such editors is not to enter into discussion with them but instead simply revert the damage they cause while drawing the attention of more and more people to their behaviour. hope I was of some help.  ;) Esmehwp 20:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

regualrly inspecting such editor's contributions is also a good idea LOLEsmehwp 20:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Protection of state terrorism by the United States

I saw you messaged User talk:Phaedriel, however she will be out for a while; you may wish to notify User talk:Riana or User talk:KnowledgeOfSelf as they are both admins who know her. —  $PЯINGrαgђ  18:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

School of the Americas

Excellent work keeping up with Ultramarine's edits. Thanks for keeping wikipedia fair and accurate. Eclectek  19:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Straw poll on George Soros talk page

I'm asking for a straw poll to settle the Soros discussion. Please participate. Smallbones 18:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

US Invasions

Do not copy the text of other websites and claim it as your own. At US invasions you have been copying the content of http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/victims.htm and solely modifying it to comply with MediaWiki formatting. It is still plagiarism and a copyright violation. Do not replace the content, again, or you will be blocked.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong that its just been copied and pasted. Its been modified significantly and should be modified a lot more so. What is copied are only the skeletal frame work, but these is all referenced. But, I'll work on it on a sub page before replacing it so that it can't be said to be a copy vio.Giovanni33 23:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't suggest that. A copyright violation will still be a copyright violation in your user space. If you need to work on it, you'd be better off working on it on your hard disk, and perhaps occasionally pasting your work into the article and using "preview", but not "save". ElinorD (talk) 00:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll follow your advice, then.Giovanni33 00:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

ANI

You're the topic of discussion in a section of ANI. --ElKevbo 00:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll comment, there. These conservatives coming after me reminds me of that famous Mao quote whose point is that it's good to be attacked by the enemy. I guess in this case, ideological enemies. hehe I found the quote: "I hold that it is bad as far as we are concerned if a person, a political party, an army or a school is not attacked by the enemy, for in that case it would definitely mean that we have sunk to the level of the enemy. It is good if we are attacked by the enemy, since it proves that we have drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves. It is still better if the enemy attacks us wildly and paints us as utterly black and without a single virtue; it demonstrates that we have not only drawn a clear line of demarcation between the enemy and ourselves but achieved a great deal in our work."

To Be Attacked by the Enemy Is Not a Bad Thing but a Good Thing (May 26, 1939), 1st pocket ed., p. 2. Although, I don't think any WP editor is my enemy--just ideological opponents. The attacking is, indeed, a sign of weakness.:)Giovanni33 01:49, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Undoing a move

The easiest way to undo a move is to select the Move tab on the page the article was moved from and then selecting the revert link after the last move. But that only works if there hasn't been any edits on the article yet. --Bobblehead 05:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

New Soros Poll

I put up a compromise solution on the Soros page and wanted to see if you could stop by and give it a yea or nay so that we can resolve the whole thing. Also, any other input would be greatly appreciated. |3 E |_ |_ 0 VV E |) 14:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Mongo's Arbcom in progress

You may be interested in this: User:MONGO/arbcom ... Seabhcan (Here we go again!) 13:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Looks like Psychological projection to me. heheGiovanni33 16:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

From Bmedley Sutler

Hi, I have to get them converted to text files. They're all on paper now. Thanks for the message. Bmedley Sutler 01:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR report

Giovanni33, I have closed this as resolved, due to your self-revert. However, the case you are making for an exemption requires someone to closely examine the content dispute, which does not generally happen at WP:ANI/3RR. It's not blatant vandalism, where you would indeed be exempt. Had you not self-reverted, you would surely have been blocked (as may have been Ultramarine.) So, it would be wise to confine yourself to the talk page for a bit before proceeding.Proabivouac 02:37, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you G

Hey thank you for your comments here: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Removal_of_comments_on_article_talk_page Remember, us Time wasters, POV pushers, trolls...need to be shown the door Travb (talk) 15:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story

Good Evening (GMT time); the above case is awaiting your input at the Mediation location.

Have a nice day;

Anthøny 17:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding me, and sorry for neglecting this matter. I'll get to it right away. CiaoGiovanni33 04:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR discussion

The following discussion has been removed from the 3RR noticeboard. If you would like to continue the argument, please do so here. Kafziel 12:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Giovanni33 reported by User:MONGO (Result:)

• Three-revert rule violation on

Talk:Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log): Time reported: 14:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Previous version reverted to: 07:45, July 17, 2007

• 1st revert: 07:56, July 17, 2007
• 2nd revert: 08:11, July 17, 2007
• 3rd revert: 08:20, July 17, 2007 changes to using my name to "with one editor who insists on being unamed here"
• 4th revert: 08:56, July 17, 2007 again to "with one editor who insists on being unamed here"

Giovanni33 knows that 3RR isn't an entitlement so I didn't bother to warn him. I asked him four times (here, here, here and here) to not put my name in the talkpage discussion heading and he repeatedly put it back and then added the silly "with one editor who insists on being unamed here" just to be childish. This guy edit wars constantly all the way up to 3RR and has been blocked by more than a dozen administrators including one as recently as June 29th, albeit he was soon unblocked since the page was protected. He was almost blocked again on July 12th and was given a reprieve since he self reverted.. I feel that I had a right to not have him post my name repeatedly in the heading, especially after I had asked him numerous times (ie...argue about the message, not the messenger) to not put my name there. He is also currently sitting on the line on the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki article with an initial installment and three reverts again., , , . This is par for the course. Giovanni33 sees the 3RR rule as an entitlement, he has been blocked and counseled repeatedly yet he doesn't seem to get it.--MONGO 14:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a 24 hour block for both of them would do, MONGO seems to be doing his fair share of reverting as well, which I wouldn't be surprised is disrupting the talk page there. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

And article edits: Geez. Talk about throwing stones in glass houses. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop following MONGO around. ElinorD (talk) 23:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop following me around? He vandalized my page, I understand you were using your discretion not to warn him. However then following me around, does not seem to help anything. --SevenOfDiamonds 23:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

SevenOfDiamonds is a sockpuppet, probably of a banned editor. I have asked him repeatedly to not wikistalk my edits but he seems to not know how to read. I have the right to remove my name which was posted repeatedly and deliberately even after I asked Giovanni33 to not do so.--MONGO 21:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

MONGO has since gone on to vandalize my talk page. It seems perhaps they need a cooling off period. --SevenOfDiamonds 22:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Mongo brought this talk page incident to ANI already where the issue was resolved by another admin who told both of us to knock it off. Mongo seems persistent not to let go, and wants punitive action taken. No block is needed as this has been arleady been resolved. Admins on ANI reviewed the incident and consensus was that no block is called for, unless it continued. Read here:] This report seems to be POINT violation, and further distruption (I also note Mongo has still not bothered to talk about the actual edit conflict in which he reverted 3 times in less than 3 hours, with 3 other editors total. He claimed not to have time, but he does have time to bring frivilous and disruptive reports to this board and to ANI.Giovanni33 21:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing frivilous about you repeatedly reposting my name and violating 3RR after I asked you repeatedly to cease doing so. You are the POINT violation. You always edit war right up to 3RR, and in this case, you did so for the most stupid of reasons, so I guess the next stop is an Rfc on your actions.--MONGO 21:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The above difs show you doing quite the same. Again glass houses. Further you went and vandalized my page because I noted your 3RR violations? That is not cool at all. --SevenOfDiamonds 22:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is frivilous for you, Mongo, to continue to disrupt the various WP boards with an issue that is done and over with, already handled by resolved by other admins. Don't be a baby. WP is big enough and its not a battleground. And, no I don't alwas edit war--again you seem to be describing yourself. You were edit waring with three other editors and went right up to 3 RR in less than three hours, with zero discussion about your conflict on the talk page. But, you dont see me wikistalking you, and trying to get you blocked by posting on all the boards, after other admins told you to knock it off, and go to your own corner. This report is thus frivious and distrupting WP to make a point.Giovanni33 22:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Wake up call...I asked you 4 times to not post my name, yet you did so anyway, repeatedly...what you did was just to disrupt the project and to harass me. Don't misrepresent your actions.--MONGO 22:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

You barked orders and were incivil, and ignored my repeated questions about what problem you had with my edits on the talk page, which as I explained, I felt were an accurate and fair representation of the situation and content dispute--you wanted to misrepresent the conflict which was just you--one editor--reverting (btw, you should not alter other editors comments on the talk page). Instead of explaining yourself and answering my repeated attempts to explain yourself--that is instead of assuming good faith--you attacked me and assumed "harassment." Still, even though you failed to provide any reasons, I relented, as I indicated on the page, and yet you still did not even address your dispute. You continued to edit war with three editors alone, maxing up your 3RR in less than three hours--while I asked you repeatedly on talk to address your objections. You already brought this up on ANI. It was resolved by other admins. They told you to back off, stop it, and go back to your corner. WP is a big place. Yet, you don't seem to get the point. Perhaps you need a block for continued disruption? This issue, as I've said, had been resolved as of last night by other admins from ANI. Bringing up a solved issue just to generate further conflict on WP is distruptive. Block are not punitive, they are preventive.Giovanni33 22:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) shows up above with 3RR as well. Seems a block is in order. As for the other incivility alleged, it seems we have stalking and personal attacks by SevenOfDiamonds (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and defense by MONGO. Collateral damage to the problem created by user:Giovanni33. --Tbeatty 23:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes MONGO was defending himself by vandalizing my talk page ... how serious is anyone suppose to take that? He has already been warned by two other admins anyway, so I think that says more then your vandalism in defense claim. --SevenOfDiamonds 23:15, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Look at the history. You posted a troll notice immediately after he left a message (that you reverted) on your talk page. After seeing your actions, I think he was spot on and your personal atack was unwarranted. --Tbeatty 03:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is MONGO's original comment , Here's the reversion and snarky edit summary and immediately you followed up with a troll warning . I think it's pretty clear who the troll is. --Tbeatty 03:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Commment Giovanni, it seems that every time you breaking the 3RR rule and get reported, you show up here to explain to administrators that "no block is necessary". It would be appreciated if you could 1) stop breaking the rule, especially over something so petty as your latest violation, and 2) leave it to administrators to decide on the necessity of a block. I'm personally not going to take any action (I've recently been leaving messages on MONGO's page), but I wouldn't object if another administrator does. ElinorD (talk) 23:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to condone his actions but Giovanni was right when he said the issue was resolved on the AN. It looks to me like MONGO is board shopping. He didn't get a block on the AN/I so he came here to get one. Quite frankly I find such behaviour bloody rude. If he's not willing to abide by the admin's decisions on the incidents noticeboard then why bother posting a complaint there? My advice to MONGO. Let the matter drop already. My advice to SevenOfDiamonds - take the stupid termplate off the top of your talk page. Matter settled. My advice to Giovanni, limit yourself to less than one revert a day then you'll never need to explain yourself here again.Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is a 3RR violation report, which appears to be valid. All this extra bull doesn't belong on this noticeboard. - Crockspot 23:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes but the point is, this 3RR violation was already reported at the AN/I and the matter was resolved by me deleting the crap form the talk page in question, changing the header to somthing acceptable to MONGO, and telling them both to knock it off.Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 23:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

You failed to act to do something about this guy and his disruption at AN/I, so yeah, since no one there wanted to do anything about this I had no choice really but to bring it here. That you think that your word should be the final word and that I shouldn't be able to seek other methods of having this editor dealt with is, well, "bloody rude". Enforce the 3RR and send the message that termangent editing where I repeatedly ask another editor to cease from posting my name in a talkpage heading and he does it anyway just to POINT the issue isn't something we have to tolerate on this website.--MONGO 03:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

She did act. She did do something about it. She told us both to knock it off. Apparently, you don't care what others think. You only do what you want to do, and "damn" what the community thinks? See this on his talk page where he is cursing at admins in general:]. Mongo, you do not come here with clean hand--even if you had a valid point, once long ago. Maybe I'm missing something but did you not violate the 3RR rule by undoing my edits on the talk page 4 times yourself? The fact is that I was only restoring my talk page comments you removed, and only because you refused to communicate, and giving me a reason that I asked for. I explained my self, and then accommodated your request by changing it. Finally, I let you have your way. You could have chosen to instead discuss your differences--in particular the actual content of the article-- which was my goal. Instead you continued to edit war (with three editor), with no discussion, and in fact artificially create conflict---and then run with it, getting as much mileage as you can.

Civility goes a long way--unless you goal is to accomplish something else? One could easy conclude so....Most editors on WP, esp. senior ones, and admins, would have been able to avoided all this completely unnecessary bickering and wasting of everyone’s time by simply talking about why you did not like my talk page heading, for example. (I did ask several times but you ignored it), or letting it go after it was a moot issue, since I gave in. Most people would have dropped it when the Admins on ANI resolved by removing all the off-topic stuff (which meant ALL your contributions to the talk page, I might add). A senior editor actually interested in improving this encyclopedia, or this article would have acted in a constructive manner by actually talking about the actual content dispute. Still, you choose to ignore that, and continue on with what everyone told you to stop already. When you ignored Theresa request to drop it already, another admin and beacrat tried to close the discussion, as it was serving no useful purpose, anymore, stating, " issue resolved, lets leave it be,"you reverted him, and in a threatening tone, no less:] Again, this shows contempt for the community, just as you show contempt for other editors here, esp. if they happen to disagree with you. When I asked you to explain yourself, you refused, and only kept shouting demands.

This arrogance and incivility is a chronic problem. Even when I let you get your way on the talk page, that was not good enough. You took it to ANI. And, even then when admins dealt with it appropriately (what good is a block that stops discussion? Besides you'd have to be blocked, as well, then), it was not enough for you to move on, still. They had to tell you to knock it off, and essentially go to each of our respective corners and cool off. But you defied them, too. Now you come here to seek a block way after the fact that this is long done and over with, solved---and its only you who continue to beat this dead horse, and force everyone else to deal with this, long ago resolved issue. This is classic disruption. And, when other admins disagree with you, and point out that I am right about this point, you call them rude?! Make no mistake, I am not perfect, and I admit fault. But do you ever admit being wrong, Mongo? No, you only attack others, when its obvious your hands are very dirty. Now the more you dig, the more dirty you get. I'm trying to help you from digging yourself into a hole you can't get out off. I strongly recommend you drop it, move on, and reflect on how to be more constructive moving forward, esp. in dealing with conflicts. The point is not to escalate but to defuse. Why are you here anyway? Are we not all here to write an encyclopedia? Let get to it. Surely, you don't need to have to be blocked before you get the point, since that defeats the purpose (unless that is not why you are here?)Giovanni33 06:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do not chastise MONGO for calling me rude, when I, in fact called him rude and he quoted my own words back at me. (No need to reply to this message, just bear it in mind for the future)Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 10:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I have never seen a more disgusting line of insults and transagressions in my life...you are so outrageously mistaken it is comical. I should have done an indef ban on you long ago, at the same time I was banning all your sock accounts.--MONGO 08:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

As nor have I with your repugnant transgressions, which far surpass anythign else I've yet to see with any established editor. You will note that different, though, between my claims and yours: you only shout hollow proclamations with your attacks, while I document, prove, and comment on your unacceptable behaviors, which many other editors likewise condemn. Your weak ploy of pointing out socks from last year is not fooling anyone.Giovanni33 18:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, I don't like to counter other admins, so I'm not going to go beyond anything Theresa said. But I'm this close to blocking you for quite awhile for your constant edit warring. There is no reason Misplaced Pages should put up with this. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 09:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have to agree with you regarding edit waring, but I have to say that the point applies twice as much to Mongo than it does for myself. Having said that, I'm going to self limit my reverts to 2 as my personal max (and even then, its my least perferred option. I think edit waring is bad, but its non-cooperative, combative editing behavior such as Mongo's above, that result in edit warring. I'll certainly do more on my end, but I hope he also takes the advice I and others have been giving him. In his case it seems to fall in deaf ears.Giovanni33 18:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

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