Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:14, 21 July 2007

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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What does porn have to do with an Encyclopedia?

Why does Misplaced Pages allow porn?  Tcrow777  talk  02:46, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Because it isn't censored. --The Raven's Apprentice 02:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I know, but isn't that taking it to the extreme.  Tcrow777  talk  03:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't like we host pornography, we just don't censor images relevant to an article. Usually, they are fairly tasteful. Is there a particular image that you are objecting to?--Cronholm 03:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Technically, the Wikimedia Foundation does host porn because it is stored on their servers and is freely available. I object to all porn.  Tcrow777  talk  03:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't be unreasonable about it—it does not show explicit sexual acts (such as a facial actually happening or anal sex being done by two guys), and therefore is not pornography. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  03:23, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Check out fellatio, Spring. Or List of sex positions. An illustration is as bad as a photograph. But the fact remains, Misplaced Pages is not censored, and IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason for removal. --The Raven's Apprentice 03:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Information about sex is a part of "the sum of all human knowledge." We present it in an encyclopedic way, and I very much doubt that people come to wikipedia seeking the titillation that the word "porn" suggests.--Cronholm 03:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

These illustrations do not show it happening. They show what does happen, but they do not show it happening. —  $PЯIПGrαgђ  03:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Porn (and sex in general) is a very common field of human endeavor. Therefore, it makes sense for Misplaced Pages to document it. --Carnildo 04:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess a more relevant question is not "Why does Misplaced Pages host porn?" but "Why am I so obsessed with porn I feel the need to "take a stand" against encylopedically written articles on it?" Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Or, alternatively, one might ask "Why do I reflexively and obsequiously defend a former porn king (Jimbo Wales) when the subject comes up here?".+ILike2BeAnonymous 12:16, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this editor should be blocked for violation of WP:NPA. I won't do it myself because I am personally involved.--Jimbo Wales 15:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sternly warned, if that is sufficient, GDonato (talk) 16:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Im Deutschen haben wir dafür ein Sprichwort: "Was stört es die Eiche, wenn sich ein Schwein an ihr reibt?" - in diesem Sinne - auf sowas gar nicht eingehen. Wenn man es beachtet, wird es erst wichtig. Marcus Cyron 17:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, since I don't speak German (and neither do many others here, no doubt, this being the English Misplaced Pages), here's a rough translation (very rough, rendered by freetranslation.com) of your comments:

In the German, we have for that a proverb: "What it disturbs itself the oak, if a pig at its reibt?" - In this sense - on such a thing do not go in at all. If one notes it, it becomes first important. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd translate the proverb as "What does the oak care when a pig rubs against it?" --Dapeteばか 09:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

To which I would reply, "Why do you infer that by expressing an opinion a person is acting in defence of a third party on the basis that said third party may have or might have had an interest in the subject being discussed?" LessHeard vanU 13:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, because Bomis and Misplaced Pages have SO MUCH IN COMMON THAT YOU CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH US. They were both started by Jimbo Wales. They both have some content you probably wouldn't show your kids. 'Oh god, Misplaced Pages is a porn site!'

Please. We aren't censored, we aren't for little kids, and we don't want to be. The sum of human knowledge doesn't end at names and dates. Mike the headless chicken- Fucking, Austria- hell, pretty much anything in WP:ODD might not be something you'd find in Britannica, but they're sure as heck notable and interesting subjects. WP isn't meant to be a free Britannica, or a free Encarta. We're meant to be a 💕, and that's free as in speech, too. Unless you can provide a good reason why things that are probably the only reason you are alive right now are unencyclopedic, you should probably stop flinging crap. --L 13:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The wonderful thing about this encyclopedia is that it aims to cover EVERY single topic in the world in great detail. That's why it is so popular. It doesn't shy away from various topics for fear of upsetting people. Why should all articles with images of nice, juicy, blood dripping slices of meat be deleted just because vegetarians might riot on looking at them? The world's best encyclopedia covers everything and anything, going to any length to explain it properly. This is why this encyclopedia is (in that sense) the best there is and why it is used so much. Shouldn't all encyclopedias (other than children's encyclopedias) be like that? Lradrama 09:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

How many pictures of Erections do we need to illustrate an article? And why do we keep both unused images and the editors who seek imaginative ways to display them to the unsuspecting? (Example problem - graphic) Note that the image in question was deleted from Misplaced Pages but re-uploaded to Commons. Rklawton 17:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I know there was a warning, but I clicked anyway. I wish I didn't, but I did. the_undertow 07:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we should leave it how it is. After all, Misplaced Pages has lots of stuff that arn't in other encyclopedias. And there arn't any "porny" pictures even on the porn article itself. ⊕Assasin Joe 18:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

An answer to the question at the begining: Why not? It depends to live like to eat, to drink or to sleep. Not to talk (and write) about those things would be very bad. Sexuality, and this includes Pornography and Prostitution, is a normal thing, only the world dont want it to know or realize. Misplaced Pages will show the world. And Pornography is everywhere. And people who don't want to read about it musn't look out for these themes. Marcus Cyron 17:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Most of the images of Erection also have very odd liscencing. (An image the uploader took,... yeah right) If wikipedia is to have any images, then they should at least have correct liscencing that corresponds to Misplaced Pages's Fair-Use policy.

Fair use doesn't apply here because the photographers are wikieditors and released the image with a free licence. There is nothing strange about that, it is the normal situation on En.Misplaced Pages and the only situation on commons. BTW please always sign your posts so we can see who is saying what. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 18:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, might I reccomend that if you have a problem with wikipedias stance on censorship, porn and sex. you might want to check out this project which believes porn does not exist as well as many other controversial topics. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 18:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

That project was deleted! I want Misplaced Pages to be safe for all users, an Elementary School user might be able to handle profanity (as long as G.D. is not mentioned more then it needs to be), but porn is something no Elementary School user should see.  Tcrow777  talk  08:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The deletion was the joke. Encyclopedia's are not meant for elementary school students(we have a different wiki for that). Another thing, what self respecting parent would let their child have unrestricted internet access, responsibility lies with them. Lord knows if the child searches "porn" he would be lucky to get the wiki article over the other stuff that is out there. Also, porn isn't the only thing on wiki inappropriate for young 'uns, so you propose censoring of a massive amount of material. --Cronholm 08:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

TCrow, every elementary school student knows what a naked person looks like, and many of them have had some kind of sex education. A few images demonstrating (most of the sex ones are drawings and not even real images) sex or genitalia are not porn. Its the same thing you'd find in a sex ed class, health class, or a biology/human anatomy class. What elementary school child would be looking up what a Penis or the Kama Sutra is on Misplaced Pages anyways? You also seem to be showing a Christian bias with that profanity comment, Misplaced Pages is for all walks of life and what offends one person may not bother someone else at all, we don't have to view something we see as offensive; there is no need to censor the whole project. DarthGriz98 14:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? If I'd had access to Misplaced Pages in elementary school, penis would have been one of the first things I'd have looked up (as would fart, and poop, and...) --Carnildo 19:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

@tis true that children do have a natural curiosity about all things sexual and bodily functional. The nice thing about wikipedia is, that if their parents decide they are mature enough to use it, they will (we hope) find accurate and well written information as opposed to playground myths. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Hm, now that I think about it, that is the first thing I would have looked for. Well, if they are actually looking for it, then why stop them? The point is that the information on Misplaced Pages is factual information on the subject of sex rather than overly pornographic like, well porn. Let's put it this way, if we were born naked, and nudity is all around us, what's the big deal if it's natural? DarthGriz98 00:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Tcrow777, can you answer the following questions:

1. What is your definition of pornography?
2. What is your understanding of the mission of Misplaced Pages?
3. Why do you believe that poronography does not fit with the mission of Misplaced Pages?
4. What do you think are Misplaced Pages's obligations to parents and children?
5. What criteria do you think should be applied to determine what images and what article text are "appropriate" for Misplaced Pages?

--Richard 19:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Gladly,

1. Any picture showing anything.
2. An Encyclopedia with all free content that anyone can edit and add to, anyone should be able to look up anything without having to shield their eyes. An Encyclopedia for all.
3. It is unnecessary and the primary reason it is on Misplaced Pages is that it causes sexual atraction.
4. Viewing porn on Misplaced Pages should be optional.
5. Does it add important information? Could what the picture is trying to explain be better explained it text, pictures should be a last resort? Is the primary reason that it is there is because it causes sexual atraction?

—  Tcrow777  talk  22:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, ignoring your blatent religious views, why exactly must children be shielded from sex at all? It's something almost every adult does and something they too will do when they are adults. We don't guard our children from learning about cars even though they can't drive one, and cars are a hell of a lot more dangerous than bonking. I finished reading For Tibet, with Love today and Isabel Losada was describing how when she walking around Dharamsala, she saw nearly every kind of native animal - monkeys, dogs, goats - all at it in public at one time or another, and not one of the children who were running around was the slightest bit bothered. It's only when you try to conceal something that children get interested, and what is otherwise a universal fact of life becomes something obsessive. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate, for someone who thinks an image is pornographic, to replace that image with an image they think is not pornographic, but still enhances the article? (Sounds like a challenge to me.) (When I was an adolescent, I did look up the "naughty" words and pictures in encyclopedias and dictionaries. It was there in the public library, and my parents weren't looking over my shoulder when I was in the reference section. Parents have a lot more control over the internet in their own home, than they do the public libraries.) But seriously, if you think an image is pornographic to the point it doesn't contribute to the article, try making your own image. gnomelock 20:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Smatprt violations

There is an annoying user who has been complained about by at least six editors for obstructing the development of the Shakespeare project. I suggest a long ban. Testimony can be found here.Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#User:Smatprt_violations (Felsommerfeld 22:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

On second thoughts, maybe on reading those comments from editors he has learnt how distressing his behaviour has been to people and he can become a better person. So I withdraw my previous request with this hope in mind. (Felsommerfeld 23:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC))

If he keeps it up post on WP:ANI, they should help you. Otherwise continue improving articles.--Cronholm 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Felsommerfeld has posted there, and on at least a dozen different admin and article talk pages. So far, the responding administrators have found NO reason for action and, in fact, have advised Felsommerfeld to stop deleting properly referenced material (that happens to disagree with his POV). He has also been advised to work things out at talk, instead of making false accusations of sock-puppetry (proven untrue) and the like.Smatprt 04:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Felsommerfeld's complaint-spree appeared after I filed an administrative incident report against him for making mass deletions of referenced material. The administrator on that case has warned Felsommerfeld about this and posted advice to the other mainstream editors of the Shakespeare Authorship page (who keep deleting material there, too) here: and here: . Felsommerfeld's implied threats to retaliate on pages like this are here: and here: and here: Thanks for considering this info. Smatprt 14:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

On third thoughts, I don't think he's learnt anything and judging by this tirade will probably continue on his mission to rid the Shakespeare articles of all mention of the Stratford man, replacing him with the Earl of Oxford. It can't all be me if at least six editors have testified against him here!!! ] (Felsommerfeld 09:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC))

This is definitely not the place to discuss this--Cronholm 15:53, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Just in case...

Someone's been playing around with TOR nodes tonight, and I've done a handful of blocks on those that I found being abused by at least a banned user. However, someone on a separate TOR node decided to point me to the conversation above, and has since been using others to replace the message and be a general pain in the butt. It's very likely that some other IP is going to bastardize this message or tack on a ZOMG ADMINABUSE to this, but I believe the message about you thinking no one should be using an open proxy (or a TOR proxy) to be editting Misplaced Pages holds in this situation.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was close.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

zOMGadminabuse --L 19:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment on your user page

I hate to say this, but the edit count/summary/usage link in the top right is incompatible with classic skin, as it falls on top of the links to my use page, talk, preferences etc. Can something be done about this? – Tivedshambo (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Should be easy. I'll take a look. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

OKI've fixed it in classic. Doesn't look too bad in Monobook, perhaps someone else would like to play with css a bit . If you do though, please check the classic skin (and the others) to make sure your changes do not look awful in the other skins. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn

Thanks. – Tivedshambo (talk) 05:47, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

SCOX Trolls

These accounts are at it again. How about some help Mr. Wales, if you have time. It may be a good idea for you to refer the entire mess over to the arbcom to sort it all out.

• User:Pfagerburg
• User:Aim Here
• User:Kebron

They have been repeatedly told to stay away from me, but have not gotten the message. I will be out of town until next Tuesday on business in Texas. I can be reached by email.

Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 03:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you gone through the typical series of steps to resolve this problem? Reasoned conversation, WP:WQA, WP:RFC, WP:ANI, WP:MC, WP:ARBCOM. --Cronholm 03:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

No, he hasn't. But he insists that most people who criticise him are trolling, and for some odd reason, people actually believe him often. -Amarkov moo! 03:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

He might have a case with Pfagerburg but the others don't appear to be trolls.--Cronholm 03:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't really matter know. Someone's blocked everyone involved except me, including these three. So they'll be reflexively unblocked, and we'll go to Arbcom really fast. Enjoy the circus, I have to figure out how to not be listed as a party to the dispute. -Amarkov moo! 03:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Does Mr. Merkey have some kind of power here? It seems unreasonable to block users at his beck and call.--Cronholm 03:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Never mind he got blocked too. This could make for an interesting case.--Cronholm 04:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfair actions by an admin and a serious issue plaguing Misplaced Pages.

Dear Mr. Wales,

I, User:Altruism would like to bring to your notice the repeated abuse of admin powers by User:Blnguyen.

This is the second time in a fortnight that I've been blocked for 'violations' in Telugu script. Incidentally, this time User:Blnguyen not only unprotected the article (which was in deep conflict) but was also involved in "major edits", when he should have recused himself due to a "conflict of interest." He was not explicit in mentioning the reasons for the "major edits" in the "edit summary," only caring to mention "rm dubious pictures." This only shows his suspicion at those pictures. After I reverted his edits twice, another user reverted my reverts by explicitly mentioned the reasons in the "edit summary," which I respected. User:Blnguyen has been extremely hasty and violated the last guideline of Misplaced Pages:Copyright_violations as no appropriate warnings, nor any explicit mention of his reasons was made in the edit summary of Telugu script .

Please see my earlier conversation with User:Blnguyen. He is dangerously courteous and evasive in answering, when asked about why he was biased and hasty in blocking me. I strongly feel that Admin privileges are probably the last thing to be vested with such biased users.

I also have concrete evidence of User:Blnguyen supporting and succumbing to bait from a gang of users, engaged in widespread vandalism/trolling in several articles, especially those pertaining to Andhra Pradesh, Telugu script, Beary bashe, Belgaum border dispute etc. Plz. see a complaint of mine, which fell on deaf ears; a complaint of sock-puppetry.

I request your immediate intervention in this major dispute especially the users ganging up plaguing and disturbing at least several hundreds of users. I'm bothering you because I like many others had no other recourse anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Thanking You, Altruism 07:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The first block was for 5RR. After that it was brought to my attention that there were copyvios on the page, so I made my edits to remove these copyvios. Then I unprotected the page so that everyone could have an editing opportunity. Altruism decided to reinstate unsrouced pictures, which were already tagged as problematic on the caption on the screen. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Have you tried ANI or RFC?--Cronholm 07:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sigh... I figured as much. Can you two find some way to work it out?--Cronholm 08:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I did make 5RRs the first time I was blocked. But all I did was to keep the content intact before my request for re-protection was acceded. I requested unprotection in the first place, only in WP:AGF , in order to arrive at a consensus on Telugu script on the lines of Telugu language. I can definitely say that User:Blnguyen reacts to different users in very different ways, not uniformly, which is why he should be relieved of his "admin responsibilities." He is biased. I'd apologise to Mr. Wales for spamming his discussion page, but for the importance of the larger issue. Thanking You, Altruism 08:29, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

He might not even comment, and this kind of thing seems all to common here. I suggest you work it out between yourselves, or, if that is not possible, you seek help via the WP:RFC process. If that fails then go to mediation. These steps were put in place specifically for cases like these.--Cronholm 08:36, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It just may not work because he's an admin, whose powers he's least hesitant of using.

My main message to Mr. Wales is to highlight the traumatic case of users ganging up and/or indulging in Sock puppetry and getting away, probably in collusion with some admins!! --Altruism 08:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

They are not socks, unless someone has the time and energy to create and maintain 5 very active accounts with a variety of edit patterns just to gang up on you. I think ganging up in this case might be WP:CON and you might want to try to work with them rather than against them.--Cronholm 08:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

To say the least, I've pro-actively tried to collaborate and do constructive edits. I've tried arbitration, but to little or no avail. At least 2 of the 5 mentioned may be indulging in Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry, one case of which was confirmed by an investigator, only to be cleared of the charges on the basis of User:Blnguyen and others' report. Is it appropriate to discuss this on Mr. Wales' page? Thanking You, Altruism 08:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration?(I don't think you have gone to Arbcom have you?) that would be premature. It seems mediation WP:M is the correct venue at this point. Yes, this is semi-inappropriate for this venue, but it happens all the time anyway. --Cronholm 09:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm open to WP:M but what about the damage already done. My unblemished track record in Misplaced Pages was spoilt not once but twice.

More importantly, what about the larger issue (different/same users ganging up) of repeated reverts, deletions by absolutely rigid users. Shouldn't this be examined by a larger audience, probably to block any loopholes that WP policy may have, currently. Could you throw any solutions? Thanking You, Altruism 09:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Mediation. That leaves it open to a wider audience, where people will comment. If you feel it really needs lots of opinions, go to WP:RFC and create a RFC on either yourself or the admin. Mediation is definately the best option. Also, even if you were trying to do good, breaching 3RR is a serious offense. WP:AGF does not count in that case. Also, in the case of copyvios, it is normal to remove until investigation - having them online can cause major problems and/or legal troubles for Misplaced Pages and the Wikimedia Foundation. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The Mediation Committee does not deal with user conduct disputes. Therefore, if you were to file an RfM, the only thing we'd be interested in hearing about is the content issues, and would ignore/remove discussion about sockpuppetry, edit warring and blocks. To quote Essjay, former Chair of the MedCom and former Arbitrator, amongst other things:

I believe strongly that most user-conduct cases are a matter for Arbitration, where actual, meaningful decisions can be made about conduct and sanctions imposed where necessary. The Arbitration Committee is in a position to say "You are wrong and must stop." The Mediation Committee is, in most user disputes, completely useless: We can neither offer an analysis of the dispute, because we must remain neutral facilitators, nor can we offer any resolution to the problem, as we are completely powerless to even offer a decision, much less enforce it. We can't say "you are wrong" nor can we make them stop. In most cases, we can't even get the two sides to admit that their conduct might have been wrong; if we could, the Arbitration Committee wouldn't be anywhere near as busy as it is. When it comes to matters of behavior that rise to the level of formal dispute resolution, the parties aren't at a place where they can discuss it over tea and come away with an "I'm sorry."
I may be completely wrong in my understanding of the Committee and its place, but I see mediation as being the complement to Arbitration, not the preceeding step. (I take this from the description of the Commmittee: The role of the mediation committee is explicitly to try to resolve disputes to the mutual satisfaction of all, and not simply a first step towards banning or for vetting candidates for the Arbitration Committee to ban. Mediation is instead an honest attempt to resolve the problem.) Arbitration doesn't handle content disputes precisely because the nature of the commmittee is to investigate a situation, come to a binding decision, and then enforce it upon all parties. Misplaced Pages content doesn't work that way; everything is subject to consensus, and the best way to determine consensus is to work together, not to have it decreed from the top. That's why Mediation is so well suited to content disputes between parties who have a good faith desire to solve them: We can be the neutral facilitator they need to work out a consensus position. The key to solving content disputes is to get people talking with each other who were previously talking at each other, and mediation does that spectacularly.

—Essjay

Just thought I'd drop by and give my thoughts :) Daniel 00:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

But shouldn't copyvio or something to that effect have been mentioned in the "edit summary." User:Blnguyen only says "rm dubious pictures." As far as the dictionary goes, it only indicates suspicion, which is why I reverted. But after User:Zamkudi mentioned the reasons, I stopped. Despite stopping, I was blocked by the same admin User:Blnguyen for the 2 time in a fortnight. Yes, I did violate 3RR the first time. Thanking You, Altruism 09:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, the "larger audience" usually(hopefully) gets involved when you post at RFC or a a relevant wikiproject. As for ganging up, that is their consensus versus your lone view. Unless you can convince somebody or them that you are in the right on an issue, then your edits won't stand. I recommend using policy WP:V and WP:RS when in a content dispute and WP:AGF when in a personal one. Try to find some common ground and engage them on the talkpage with suggestions. You might consider making a sandbox that demonstrates what you would like the article to look like. This will avoid mainspace conflict. I think this is probably a good start anyway.--Cronholm 09:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There is probably much more to it than just 'consensus' and I'm not the lone person to feel this. I can assure you that there are at least several tens of editors, who feel the same as myself. In brief, the problem is that the "gang," is from a state in India, whose neighbouring states' editors feel wronged, mainly to due to their very unusual, highly systematic and efficient co-operation between them. Please see "Article historys" and decide for yourself. What else would or should be their reason to disgustingly interfere in all major articles pertaining to those of their neighbouring states? I'm not making a mine out of a molehill. What I'm saying is the "Gospel truth." I can provide the names, proofs etc. if needed. Thanking You, Altruism 09:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Am I to understand that there is some ethnocentrism involved in this case? If so this might be a little more problematic(my recommendations stand however.) I advise that you gather your evidence and supporters and go to the mediation committee. ButOnly after you have tried one last time sincerely to work it out. There is not much more to say and this thread is getting rather long. So lets try to wrap it up on this particular talkpage. --Cronholm 10:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely, I'm more of a pacifist than an aggressor (at least in WP). I've tried explaining and reasoning it out with at least some members of the "gang." This may not be with respect to different ethnic groups, but to people from different parts (unfortunately, only neighbouring states) of India, divided in this case by language, culture etc.. Why should anybody show an unusual amount of interest in removing facts (no citations), deletions, including objectionable portions etc.? Telugu script is a good example of this. I suggest that you please have a look at it, its contributors, their contributions etc. --Altruism 10:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I will take a look as time allows, I hope that you find a resolution--Cronholm 11:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I eagerly look forward to an amicable resolution of the dispute. The last I want is animosity. Thank You. Altruism 11:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

DEMANDING FAIR WIKIPEDIA FOR THOUSANDS DISSIDENTS

  Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004

 Feynman's Cargo cult science 

  p.775ff. (mainly p.777).

MYSELF: I am our club’s writer also no more sufficiently perfect in English (with a little help understandable?).

Halton Arp praised article's content of section TIRED LIGHT's but not the Englisch, Assis wished us good luck for our (well-known:) desperate fight...

Please apologize our faults and to involve you personally but we mean that objectivy is your sense.

wfc-k (IP see above) 84.158.210.237 13:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear sir or madam, I have restored your edit but be aware that this lengthy comment is not appropriate in the least bit for this talk page. Also it seems that your grammar and spelling suffer at certain points. While I do not mean this as an insult, such problems can lead to a misinterpretation of your intent. Please consider moving your comments to a more appropriate venue (like your talk page for instance). Thank you--Cronholm 14:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Consider also enlisting a translator and posting at WP:PHYS. I cannot promise that they will appreciate such a long comment but perhaps you could pare it down to some key points. They certainly would be more well equipped to handle your concern.--Cronholm 14:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You are right, we are Germans as mentioned, my personal English certainly (after too many years) worse than the German language, as User:Jimbo Wales has learnt (recently?).

As you will see, the matter (I hope understood by clear links) is a rather serious one for WIKIPEDIA.

wfc-k 84.158.253.105 14:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source, so hopefully we can avoid being involved in conflicts within academic communities by adhering to our policies of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:RS--Cronholm 15:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

From above: Assis wished us god luck for a desperate fight (to put by him also supported Tired Light theorie in a more serious manner (a "shooting star" in searching this); AND "Talk pages of by us 2 involved Admins were promptly cleared." (no answer, to be found if you want). - Our common problem is: also WP:PHYS-members seem mainstream-"dedicated followers of fashion". Above meantioned well-known in WIKI-articles living physicians trying to correct THEIR matter were obviously affected by Administrators; we were accused to rv: "disrupted", "spam" (our old Astronom Dr.Kiesslinger linked 15p. offered payment for print cost), "krank physics" etc. was supported.

wfc-k (dyn IP, see above) 84.158.253.105 15:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

If I am understanding you correctly, you have been reverted by the admins for creating articles outside the mainstream. If this is the case, then it would be best to approach those admins and give them specific sources establishing notability. Be warned that it will be difficult to create more than stub articles that acknowledge the existence of these theories until they are published in accredited peer-reviewed academic journals. (doesn't necessarily have to be "mainstream"). This is the system here, like it or not. --Cronholm 15:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

sorry, an error, see below. We cannot talk for related named important persons, but

BTW I think you mean physicist not physician.--Cronholm 15:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Cronholm: physicists of course! - Confusing basic words by decades of no practice and/or nervous?

SEARCH LEFT BUTTON ABOVE TO READ TEXT

sorry, Astro-friend did not find it wfc-k 84.158.206.96 17:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Imagine millions see and learn only one version (here of physics)

  Big hope: Clear links above speak quite clearly for themselves without words!

• ANSWER: No Article(s) was CREATED, in Astronomy only Fritz Zwicky 80% enhanced since 3 months.

Please compare old version already enhanced formerly by an Astro-friend, quality:

This article may require cleanup to meet Misplaced Pages's quality standards in

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Fritz_Zwicky&oldid=130857447

with http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Fritz_Zwicky&oldid=144259101 especially section

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Fritz_Zwicky&oldid=144259101#Tired_Light

OUR FAULT: I personally confess that our Astro-club could no more be stopped, finally rehabilitating Zwicky enthusiastically finding always new papers, too much?. We regret with zwo of above named - in WIKI-pages related well-known - alternative physicists what happened. We feel a destruction of his main and our common work:

User:Duae Quartunciae was honored now (therefore) and put in WIKI-Project: He was allowed to disqualify (also) Zwicky’s, quasi naming his idea an error of physics. Until 1953 THE MAINSTREAM. Destroyed WIKI-chance. You find nearly 10.000 entries under "ZWICKY TIRED LIGHT" quite obviously his main work ("what have they done with my song ma")?, see newest part

http://en.wikipedia.org/Fritz_Zwicky#Tired_Light

REMINDER: Our section Tired light therein had tried to inform for the first time in WIKI more objectively about one of all more or less depreciated Non-Standard cosmologies: It was strange how we all found suddenly more and more that he was anyhow right. Above linked recent proofs show at least partially(!) significantly better given results for several effects than the Standard model. Searching TIRED LIGHT, it jumped before WIKI's not very objective Tired light. Indicating that people anyhow had found therein something not covered in the normal WIKI ARTICLE Tired light?

• I personally had created - since I got DSL in March - one German WIKI article completely, had enhanced about 25 enhancemants or corr. in different fields; mainly not reverted, e.g. in

NEW 80% of (German Data recovery),

all of a former stub Geröllzyste, (initiated by my accident),

30% of German Arthrosis structured, my sections trans. Prevention, Therapy, and many simple corrections of old articles

Nearly all not reverted and something like "shooting stars" in relation to former ranks by completing most important things that people search...

wfc-k 84.158.216.71 18:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems like you are making progress, yes? In that case is there a particular problem you would like to have addressed? Other than working towards consensus and always following the policies around here, I am not sure what else can be done/said. Just keep on trying to improve the encyclopedia in the spirit of our project, right?--Cronholm 19:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Doomed to mediocrity?

I was bouncing around Misplaced Pages and landed on regression toward the mean and it made me realize that Misplaced Pages is likely doomed to mediocrity unless something changes. To rise above mediocrity (the mean) requires that exceptional editors make exceptional edits. Misplaced Pages, however, has no effective means of noticing, validating, and protecting those exceptional edits or those exceptional editors. Therefore it is inevitable that the mob of mediocre editors will make a sufficient number of mediocre edits to eventually return even the best article to a mediocre state. Perhaps this process is forestalled a bit for featured articles that stay on people's watchlists for extended periods but I will wager that the vast majority of Misplaced Pages articles fluctuate around a mean of mediocrity (at best). The regression toward the mean article itself is a good example as, IMO, the earliest available version is, in some ways, better written than the current version. --Justanother 20:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

{{sofixit}} - CHAIRBOY (☎) 01:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

{{allofit}} and {{rightnow}}, too! --Justanother 01:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, this is what Citizendium is for. --L 02:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Featured article status and good article status is something of a buffer against this phenomenon. dr.ef.tymac 03:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be assuming that only authors capable of writing good articles are capable of recognising bad edits and protecting an article. In reality this is not the case. Even if it's true that only certain editors are capable of making better then mediocre edits (whatever that means), it's definitely not true that only they are capable of recognising these mediocore edits. In fact, I think the whole idea is a false principle anyway. Misplaced Pages never really arises above the mean. We have some good articles, some exceptional articles and a lot of mediocore or worse articles. The rate that more articles are being added is higher then or equivalent to the rate we are improving articles therefore we don't raise above the mean. But this doesn't mean we aren't getting an increasing number of good articles Nil Einne 07:48, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Regression toward the mean implies that each individual article gravitates toward mediocrity as well as the project as a whole. Statistically, and barring any protection of "exceptional" edits, the greater the number of edits or editors in any given article, the more likely that that article will be mediocre. Articles with fewer edits or editors have a better chance of being truly good or truly bad. I think that I could argue that the number of editors is more a factor than the number of edits. --Justanother 11:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Think of wikipedia as asymptotic towards more accuracy and verifiability. The reason your argument doesn't work in this case is because all of the positives add up and all of the negatives get reverted. This view is in keeping with the trend observed in studies regarding the quality of articles.--Cronholm 11:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Incrementalism applies also. I was taught in a public administration graduate course that incrementalism equals mediocrity, but there are arguments against that view. Cla68 00:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

No fear, due to our revision history system. Say that despite everyone's best efforts, due to the efforts of a hundred mediocre editors over six months, a good or featured article gets dragged down into the mire, so much that it is clearly worse. Finding the version at which it was marked good or featured and reverting to it, takes one editor less than six minutes. --AnonEMouse 07:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, to the degree that Misplaced Pages models a statistically random system, i.e. editors to any given article are drawn from a large random pool, then the laws of entropy also apply and the system and each article will tend to be more chaotic (less ordered). --Justanother 12:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Humans regularly "defy" entropy. Whenever we build something we are defying it, of course it is doomed to fall apart unless we maintain it(but that is what we are doing here at the 'pedia). --Cronholm 12:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are mitigating factors. However, I think that we can see entropy at work in the continual creep toward WP:TRIVIA in articles. I am not talking a million monkeys at a million keyboards. I am talking the tendency of each article to move toward a somewhat chaotic mean of poor grammar, poor exposition, and a looooong "Trivia" section. --Justanother 13:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yikes, I don't know what articles you have been working on, but I very rarely see trivia sections anymore (I am a maths editor so I might be immune to this). As for the others, that's what we have the league o' copyeditors for!--Cronholm 13:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture. I rest my case. --Justanother 13:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you cannot use a Misplaced Pages article as a citation for itself. Therefore, you win, case closed. dr.ef.tymac 13:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Wow oh wow, I asked for that. --Justanother 14:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

There is an inherent assumption at the core of your argument that I want to point out: mean=mediocre. The mean is NOT mediocrity. Mean is a measure of central tendency, i.e., a quantitative descriptor of a set. Mediocre is a qualitative descriptor of any number of things not necessarily related to mathematics. Just because something is average, doesn't mean it is mediocre. Would you consider the average salary of a professional athlete to be mediocre? Especially considering the fact that having a team that has 40 players making 200,000 a year and 40 making between 5 and 20 million a year? I'd say the mean certainly is not mediocre in that case.

My inherent assumption is that the large random pool of Misplaced Pages editors has a certain mean of perhaps an American college sophomore with concomitant command of the English language, understanding of complex subjects, and ability to see the "big picture". At best. And consider how the command of the English language of the average college sophomore today relates to what might be a standard of literacy of an educated man of 100 years ago. I do think that, for the population of Misplaced Pages editors as a whole, yes, mean = mediocrity. --Justanother 17:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, and I once shared them when I first started out on Misplaced Pages. But, when you work on your favourite articles, properly, for a good length of time, you begin to see the Misplaced Pages community develops into certain groups, (i.e. Wikiprojects, etc) that work tirelessly to ensure that the articles of their interest are kept upto scratch. Any nonsense is quickly spotted and removes by those knowledgeable people. Infact, during my time, there's been a visible increase of people on PC Patrol, meaning vandalism and rumours and false statements are even less likely to remain on Misplaced Pages for long. Lradrama 17:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Questions regarding community evolution

Hi Jimmy,

A company I work for has recently launched a wiki using MediaWiki software (thank you!) for the free, open development of a science fiction universe. The wiki is starting to grow rapidly, and I have some questions about how one should guide community evolution. I see the necessity in a community-governed, community-driven system, and am convinced that is what will make the wiki successful in the long term. However, I suspect that communities can occasionally evolve themselves out of existence, and I wonder if you've ever seen Misplaced Pages (in the early days) moving in that direction, and needed to take a more active role in guiding policy back to something that was going to provide for longevity of the community. In other words, has the community ever started moving in a direction that conflicted with your vision in such a way that you had to step in and say "While I appreciate your sentiment, these ideas will hurt the community in the long term, therefore, we need to follow 'x' course of action."? For example, if early on the majority of editors favored voting over the current consensus model, would you have acquiesced? Will you let the community decide something you think will hurt Misplaced Pages in time? I've asked a lot of questions here. If you are too busy to respond, I would also appreciate hearing from someone else who either is close to you and/or was with you near the Beginning. Thanks for your time. Archer904 17:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't here in the early days, but I'm experienced enough to tell you that, all to often, there are individuals who wish to pull off the normal running-course of things and go along their own path with their own ideas. However, most of the community stick firm by the rules that were set down originally anyway, and little comes of the incident. Sorry, but that's all I can offer, but I was so glad that for once, there wasn't a negative question on Jimbo's page that abused him or his creation (Misplaced Pages) or one whihc voiced their dislike over something. A welcome change. Lradrama 17:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That's very nice of you to say, thank you. I believe that a collective community voice is the strongest normative power, so it is easy for the community to defend itself against crackpots and (often) people who don't share the community's goals. However, I have a vision for what my wiki can become, and part of that vision relies on community evolution. However, strong minorities have torn apart some of the biggest institutions in history, and it is completely conceivable that the same could happen to my wiki, or to wikipedia. What if the community starts to evolve into something that Jimmy is convinced is going to ultimately diminish its scope and mission? Does he let it happen? Does he make convincing arguments and pray they are enough to sway public opinion and get a consensus going, a la Twelve Angry Men? Or does he do nothing and watch it happen? These are some of the things I'm grappling with. Archer904 18:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good question, and the answer that's best can only be provided by Jimbo himself. There are so many, many Wikipedians that affect change on this site, and together, we can be a very powerful force, but this is under Jimbo's ownership. He can decide what he likes and dislikes, and if we were to plan something he hated, does he have the ability to block us all as a last resort? I don't know really, but I'm very interested in the topic you've chosen to discuss - not that I am planning anything of the sort! I love it the way things are. We need Jimbo to comment. Jimbo? JIMBO! Please comment here! Lradrama 18:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems like fighting windmills

Once I tried to change "Gravitation" to the way as it is now considered by the mainstream (Einstinian) science and consensus of editors (9:1), including one physicist, reverted it to the Newtonian version (with "attractive force", just read the first sentence of "Gravitation") thinking that what I tried to do was pushing my point of view on gravitation. Since Newtonian gravitation is what they still teach in high schools, editors (rather intelligent ones) are sure that this is right gravitation, possibly with gravitons mediating the "attractive force". So Misplaced Pages science is still about 100 years away from contemporary science and you want to make it into an advanced scientific thought. That's why I think it is a hopeless enterprise. It is not even a mediocre science it is awfully outdated one. I could predict that Big Bang will be the longest promoted in Misplaced Pages, while all physicists already switch to newer version of general relativity with stationary universe (as they should by now because of observational data). Until all old editors die out. They still, nearly 100 years after Einstein, believe in "gravitational attraction". Jim 00:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source, so until certain theories are published in accredited peer-reviewed journals(or some equivalently reliable source WP:RS) its inclusion in wikipedia cannot be allow because of our original research policy WP:OR. If you would like to address this concern further please use my talkpage as this does not seem to concern Mr. Wales directly.--Cronholm 00:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• At the heart of a great debate, are the very nature, basis, and essence of your comments, Jim. When does consensus turn against the better good and the truth? Can a wiki / consensus based system ever be cutting edge; close to the edge? The answer is quite clear to me and it is no. There is the greater fool theory and the theory that there is always a more likely story. Therefore, everything here will be changed until it conforms to some ultimate neutral common man state. 24.1.125.21 03:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Administrators restoring and endorsing fake Misplaced Pages warnings

Dear Mr. Wales, I went to the user page of another editor with whom I have a little difference of opinion and was met with the fake Misplaced Pages 'new message' warning below:

I brought this to the attention of 2 Misplaced Pages administratiors, Kurykh, and Chaser, who both feel that "a computer hack meant to mimic a legitmate warning of a new message" as being perfectly approriate for Misplaced Pages. Link Link I deleted it from the user's page, and the administrator Chaser actually restored it to the user's page. I would hope hope that after the Essjay controversy and the other 'black eyes' like Sinbad, Seigenthaler, and Chris Benoit that Misplaced Pages would be more interested in protecting its reputation than in hijinks, but jokes and stunts and defense of such actions are apparently more important to 2 of your administrators! Maybe you feel otherwise. In the meantime I added the hoax to my userpage and talk page, and I encourage you to do the same. It's so funny! I changed the link in mine though, and might change it to link to the Wiki Goatse.cx page. Would that be ok? Think if every user on Wiki had this hoax warning on their user and talk page each with a different link? Wouldn't that be great fun? Especially for users like academics and historians who might really get a kick out of it! It would be a real 'barrel of laughs'! Don't you think? Thanks for your time. Bmedley Sutler 07:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)