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For discussion around the Allegations of apartheid articles.

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Should Misplaced Pages have articles on "Allegations of apartheid"?

Only if the allegations are notable and well sourced, and fit the common sense definition of analogy.--Cerejota 02:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion moved below. Anyway, I don't think allegations of apartheid articeles should exist at all for the simple reason that thay are all attacks against a country and clear POV forks. But if we allow the attack against some, we should allow it against all.--Sefringle 05:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Cerejota. It's unfortunate when any state or religion is accused of apartheid-like behavior, and in my view it's usually not an appropriate analogy, but it seems to me that there are some real-world memes concerning apartheid allegations and then there are some manufactured-for-Misplaced Pages grasping-at-straws-to-create-a-false-equivalence allegations. Only the former are notable and worthy of articles. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:30, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Prehaps such allegations belong on other articles with more neutral names? Misplaced Pages doesn't have to (and often doesn't) do what is the most common name for something is, often for POV reasons.--Sefringle 06:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

We can not put all the apartheid articles in the same box. First we had Allegations of Israeli apartheid. Apologists for the Israeli government tried to get the article deleted many times but they failed, because the subject is notable (Jimmy Carter even wrote a book with this title). So having failed to get Allegations of Israeli apartheid deleted they set about creating a series of articles on allegations of apartheid in Brazil, France, Cuba etc. These editors had not shown any previous interest in affairs in these countries, and created these new articles to prove a WP:POINT -- as bargaining chips. They tell us that they will agree to delete these articles if we agree to delete Allegations of Israeli apartheid. It has not occurred to these individuals that in this way they will antagonize many editors who have up till now had no experience of Zionism and of the tactics of its advocates. This blindness to the unintended effects of ones own actions is something of a trend amongst Zionists.

There is no way a consensus will be reached to delete these articles, as the pro-Israel editors seem to have locked themselves into this suicidal course and are determined to go all the way. And they will attack anyone who tries to save them from their folly.

I say let these articles stay. An interested reader can see the history, find out who created these articles and examine their contributions and in this way discover much about their ideology and how this ideology manifests itself in their dealings with others. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 13:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Ignoring your personal attacks aimed at all zionists on wikipedia, I will respond to the legitimate part of your comment. You clearly don't understand why we created other apartheid articles. All allegations of apartheid articles are meant to antagonize people of that culture; the Israel one included. They are all POV forks. Their existance on wikipedia is proof that WP:NPOV does not apply to article titles or afd's. Since these articles cannot be balanced on their own, the only way to balance them is to create similar articles about other countries, thus making the attack page have less effect since country X isn't the only one being alleged of being an apartheid state. There is nothing encyclopediac about accusing somebody or some culture/country/religion of apartheid. It is all an attempt to push a POV. Anything legitimate belongs in an article like Criticism of Israel, or Human rights in Israel. --Sefringle 02:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Shalom Sefringle, Your comment says it All allegations of apartheid articles are meant to antagonize people of that culture. This is an admission that you created your article in order to antagonize French people. I say to all french people who are enraged at this article: Look who created it, check is contributions, discover his ideology and draw the necessary conclusions.ابو علي (Abu Ali) 11:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

A Consensus?

Template:Allegations of apartheid Allmost all of the users that voted "keep" did so with the proviso that they could accept a deletion if all article in the series were deleted (I will not make pithy comments on their... hrm, anyway). To wit:

Beit Or, Urthogie, Sefringle, Carlossuarez46, Humus sapiens, Jayjg, IronDuke, ≈ jossi ≈, -tickle me, Taprobanus, Amoruso, ابو علي (Abu Ali), 6SJ7, altmany, Tewfik, Shuki, <<-armon->>.

Though I first voted DELETE, I think it would be an error to do so. They would only metastase to new nooks and crannies like Apartheid allegations against France or suchlike.

I think RENAME and REDIRECT is the way to root them out. This would also require some heavy copyediting of their tone, such as deleting "apartheid" where it is gratuitous, that is in almost all instances. A retitling would encourage editors to at least have a try to make them neutral, whereas the current one are just baits for disinformation wars.

I made some dummies to illustrate:

• Segregation by country (now:Allegations of apartheid) The mother article, that actually contains some informative and helpful entries already (as you note, I've also made a "segregation by country" template to replace the apartheid allegations one).

• Segregation in Brazil (now:Allegations of Brazilian apartheid) I found an article that contains some interesting material. Merging those two has a clear potential for a decent article.

• Segregation in China (now:Allegations of Chinese apartheid)

• The content of Allegations of French apartheid should be split up between French rule in Algeria#Hegemony of the Colons, Social situation in the French suburbs, and 2005 civil unrest in France. The current article would become a redirect to Segregation by country#France

• Allegations of Jordanian apartheid should also be rolled back into the main article. The bulk of it now is: the Iraqi refugee situation, an extra-ordinary crisis, and the banning of the sale of property to foreigners, which is not exactly hard-core segregation.

• Segregation in Saudi Arabia (now:Allegations of Saudi Arabian apartheid)

• Allegations of American apartheid should be merged into Racial segregation in the United States#Comparaisons with apartheid

• Tourist segregation (now:Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba) This is my favourite, now it's also about how Krazy Kim the Nork treats visiting imperialist lackey-dogs. Maybe there should also be a section about the limey ghettoes in Costa del Sol and Costa Brava?

• Allegations of Israeli apartheid should be moved to Segregation in the West Bank and Discrimination in Israel (suggestion from User:Urthogie)

• I thought of this, that maybe it should be split into Segregation in Israel and Segregation in the Occupied Territories, its current structure lends itself quite nicely to it, but I didn't dare propose it... so I'm glad you do! (:--Victor falk 15:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do leave some comments--Victor falk 14:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I find this to be an excellent suggestion. Congratulations. Rama 14:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I find this to be an interesting, but misguided suggestion. If you want to make a big change to all these articles, we can start a discussion on that. Right now we're discussing only "France apartheid."--Urthogie 14:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Which does not even exist as a myth. Rama 15:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• I suggest that we start a big discussion about all of these articles on someone's talk page. like User:Urthogie/allegations--Urthogie 15:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• I think Victor's proposal is the place to start. It strikes exactly the right sort of balance between a comprehensive solution and a case-by-case approach. An element of comprehensiveness is necessary when organized and relentless editors present one WP:ALLORNOTHING ultimatum after another, and use a spurious infobox/"navigation template" to consolidate and enforce their demands.--G-Dett 15:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• My (almost final) comment. I strongly oppose using the word "apartheid" as an article's title in any context other than South Africa. All the cited sources have been apparently chosen for containing the apartheid metaphor. I always assume good faith, so I'll put this one on the editors' lack of understanding of the word, their limited knowledge of France, and their limited experience of serious academic writing. You'll find many more good sources using metaphors such as segregation, ghettoization, etc, all of which are appropriate for the subjects here discussed. Secondly, a perfunctory glance suggests all of these articles need more balanced writing and more good (and on topic) sources. I'll be glad to help, drop me a note any time. Furthermore, references from any Saudi paper or website cannot be considered reputable or independent, I think that doesn't need explaining. Conclusion. I am not inherently opposed to the existence of any of these articles. The titles, however, are extremely misleading and if left, would result in continuous and absolutely needless edit wars/AfDs, and I have a feeling we've all had enough of this, haven't we? Finally, kudos to those who have refrained from personal attacks. Here's to more fruitful and honest debate in the future. --Targeman 15:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • P.S. Victor's proposal is excellent.--Targeman 15:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I like consensus, and won't certainly oppose this one. And I do agree with Targeman that comparisons with South African appartheid are misguided. But: there is nonetheless such accusation towards Israel, and a genuine debate about them. So, there should be a section in like Segregation_in_Israel#Comparisons_with_south_african_apartheid where the content of Allegations of Israeli apartheid should be merged and neutralized.Gedefr 15:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
• Here are dummy proposals forSegregation in Israel and Segregation in the Occupied Territories--Victor falk 15:49, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • The second would have to be Segregation in the West Bank or something similar - there are no Israelis living in the Gaza Strip. Jayjg 16:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Procedural proposal: If we are going to have a "global" discussion of the "apartheid" articles we can use the page that was created about a year ago for that purpose, Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Apartheid. I think this entire discussion could just be moved there, perhaps after archiving the rather old discussions that are on that page now. Unless I am mistaken, the ArbComm specifically suggested that discussions on an overall solution take place on that page. I believe there are existing templates that can be placed on the articles involved, and/or their talk pages, to direct people to the centralized discussion. The dummy articles can then be linked-to from the centralized discussion page. This sort of systematic solution seems more appropriate than using someone's user-space. As for the proposal itself, I am not sure that "segregation" is the correct word in all cases, and there already are segregation articles for some countries, so there needs to be further discussion and coordination. In the meantime, I think all the AfD's, merge proposals (like for the U.S. article), etc. should be dropped so that we can have a meaningful centralized discussion without the distraction of articles disappearing and reappearing at random. 6SJ7 16:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I certainly think a comprehensive solution might help here; however, the solution will have to be truly comprehensive for it to be acceptable. Jayjg 16:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, Jayjg , it'd be less creepy if you just stated what you mean clearly, like "it will have to address the issue of the article on Israel". For which I also find the term "apartheid" inappropriate, incidentally. But I am accustomed to people solving their problems, not exporting them to other realms. Rama 17:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You do realize that there is no substitute for AfD unless you believe that the other articles can be speedy deleted? Attempts to have an article deleted by voting keep on other otherwise blatantly POV articles like this one are futile because such deletions will end up at DRV as being out of process anyway. If this is truly going to work then we will need one mass AfD of all these articles once and for all. In order for that to happen you will need to be more specific Jayjg. I for one would love to see all of these "allegations...." articles and related POV pushing and political/religous manifests in disguise removed. Let's do this, Let's agree not to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground once and for all. The question is... are you ready to delete all of thse articles? MartinDK 17:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Response I agree that Victor's proposal is a good place to start. For my part, I would have no objection to merging some of the current content from Allegations of Israeli Apartheid into new articles entitled Segregration in Israel and Segregation in the West Bank, which could be supplemented with further information from other sources. (I could add that I do not believe the other proposed changes will be the subject of much controvery, one way or the other.)

I would also propose that we create a page entitled Israeli Apartheid Analogy (or something similar), to address occasions and contexts in which Israeli policies have been explictly compared with the experience of apartheid in South Africa. Would this be reasonable? CJCurrie 17:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with that approach. "Israeli apartheid analogy" is no different than allegations of Israeli apartheid.--Urthogie 17:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's a much more appropriate title. More to the point, it deals with an analogy that's been been raised in a variety of contexts, and is entirely encyclopedic. CJCurrie 17:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I am a priori very cautious with any article on a propaganda term (and if the introduction of "apartheid" in the context of the Middle East is not gross propaganda, I don't know what is). The fact that the term is used could be addressed somewhere, but this is a footnote in another article. I can't dream of a reason for having an article name with "Israel" and "Apartheid" -- unless the Knesset votes a law named "apartheid", which I daresay is unlikely to happen. Rama 17:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The analogy itself may or may not be gross propaganda, but the fact remains that it has been raised by diverse sources. It's hardly propagandistic or unencyclopedic to have an article about the term's usage. CJCurrie 17:42, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest Segregation_in_Israel#Comparisons_with_south_african_apartheid as per the suggestion of Gedefr 15:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC) --Victor falk 17:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I cannot think of a propaganda term so important that it'd warrant its own article, and "apartheid" related to Israel is certainly not on the top of the list. Furthermore,

• having the matter clearly identified and stated in a neutral way is a manner for Misplaced Pages to appropriate the subject without swallowing the rotten rhetorics with it (For instance we have 2003 invasion of Iraq, not "Operation Iraqi Freedom", in spite of the documents by the US Army beating the term over and over).
• addressing the issue in the framework of a larger self-sustaining article is a way to refrain the debate from slipping, something to which is seems prone. Rama 18:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the issue isn't just "segregation," but a variety of others which unfortunately very specifically involve the comparison to Sourth African apartheid. Largely it is a debate about rhetoric, but a highly prominent one nonetheless. That's to say, it's not a debate between "separate but equal" and the opposite, but something completely different. Of course, the same is true in France; "segregation" may be one way of discussing the issue, but doesn't seem to be the natural way that an article on France generally would. Considering Israel, however, I simply have a hard time seeing how the apartheid debate can avoid an article of its own, considering the huge amount of material. Still, the question does remain finding an agreeable name for that article, though I'm also not sure that can be resolved here. Mackan79 18:26, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Rama's position on all this, though simply substituting "segregation" for "apartheid" suffers the same problems and would be most unhelpful. What seems logical to me is a merge of all encyclopaedic information to "Human rights in X", with any forking only per policy as applied in the rest of the encyclopaedia. Perhaps maintaining something along the lines of the Allegations of apartheid entry for discussion of the term would be a good middle ground. Tewfik 19:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Rama wrote "I cannot think of a propaganda term so important that it'd warrant its own article, and and "apartheid" related to Israel is certainly not on the top of the list". With respect to your first point, take a look at Zionism and racism allegations and And you are lynching Negroes. (Those are off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.) With respect to your second point, based on what I hear and read the charge that Israel is an apartheid state seems to be second only to the charge that Zionism is racism in terms of its "popularity". So yes, it is so important that it would warrant its own article, just as Blood libel against Jews, Zionist Occupation Government, Rootless cosmopolitan, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Jewish Bolshevism, The Cause of World Unrest, and The International Jew, (many of which are far more obscure than accusations that Israel is an apartheid state). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

@Tewfik: That's too comprehensive. Misplaced Pages is not Amnesty International. And segregation is not a slur like apartheid is.

@Mackan: There will never be an agreeable name for all. Some will always wish it'd be called zionist apartheid pigs or baby-killing suicide towelheads. What's important is that the name neutral enough to be agreeable to the world at large.

@Malik: Thank for you for your zionism and racism allegations! I think it would be natural for apartheid to be part of those more general ones!.... --Victor falk 20:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Tewfik, I agree with Victor's point about WP not being Amnesty International, but my objection to Human Rights in Israel-Palestine is slightly different. What would happen, for example, to the Adam and Moodley material? That has been regarded as one of the most valuable sources in the article, and one of the only ones respected by partisans of both sides. Their book isn't about Human Rights, except quite indirectly. Their book is about a broad historical, ethical, and pragmatic comparison between South African apartheid and the Israeli occupation, and an application of "lessons learned" from the successful South African peace process. It is a book that takes for granted, as its very foundations, an extensive preexisting discourse likening the I-P conflict to the South African one. And that's really the tip of the iceberg. A lot of material has as its central subject not human rights per se, but rather this contentious issue: the validity and/or usefulness of the South African model for thinking about Israel-Palestine. There is a lot of work of this kind, in which the comparison is examined from every possible angle ranging from the experience of apartheid to the historical roots of the conflict to the efficacy of international sanctions to the appropriateness of a South Africa-style Truth and Reconciliation Commission for the I-P conflict. And this work in turn generates more controversy among pundits, activists, etc.; it generates boycott proposals and divestment campaigns and articles like Ian Buruma's "Do not treat Israel like apartheid South Africa" and Joel Pollack's "The Trouble With the Apartheid Analogy." This work, that is, along with the preexisting discourse/meme/debate/whatever that it builds on, as well as the further controversy it generates, together constitute a coherent subject which does not fit comfortably into the Human Rights in X paradigm.

Urthogie, I see your signpost inviting us to discuss over at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Apartheid, but I do not even agree with the framing assumptions of the question you've posed there. It begs the question. It assumes that the articles grouped together without consensus in the "Allegations of Apartheid" template are equally legitimate, and form a natural family, rather than representing a species of hoax, whereby a heavy cargo of counterfeit goods has been loaded onto a ship in order to sink its legitimate freight. This is one of the core elements of the dispute at hand. If you'll rephrase your opening question/discussion rubric so as not to foreclose that important aspect of the debate, I'll be happy to post there.--G-Dett 20:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Although I disagree with most of what G-Dett has said here, I can agree that what is now on the "centralized discussion" page is not what I had in mind when I suggested taking the discussion there. What I thought would happen is to move this discussion there and let it continue and see where it goes. I am not sure of the best way to do that, since a cut-and-paste move would wipe out the edit history. Since this is not an article, I don't know if that matters so much. I also don't know if this talk page can be renamed without also renaming the AfD page, which obviously shouldn't happen. I do know that continuing a global discussion of the apartheid issue on the talk page of the AfD for the France article is not a good idea. 6SJ7 21:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz, almost all the points you cite to counter my argument are backing it. The only article titles that you cite which are true propaganda terms are Jewish Bolshevism, Rootless cosmopolitan and Zionist Occupation Government.

All the others are neutral and factual titles which describe the general subject, Zionism and racism allegations being a canonical example. Your other citations are either titles of books or other works (The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, The Cause of World Unrest, The International Jew) or abstract concepts (Blood libel against Jews, Zionism and racism allegations).

Also, you will kindly notice that, the lead image of Jewish Bolshevism, showing a caricature of Trotsky, has absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism, which beautifully illustrate my point that giving in to propaganda by aknowleging a term as a legitimate stand-alone concept induces people into deforming things. Rama 08:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with all of this. It think the solution of a main page Allegations of apartheid and sub-pages was a great one, and has created some great content. What we are doing here, in fact, is eliminating content that would have nowhere else to go. Adam and Moodley in the Israel article, kaput. Le Monde Diplomatique in the France article, Kaput. Tobias Hecht in the Brazil article, kaput.

If something this entire year+ episode shows is that the information is out there. Just because a bunch of Francophile editors are upset that they can't find any other way to get rid of the article than to create an Unholy Francophile-Ultra-Zionist(the UFUZ™) alliance :D, doesn't mean we go around auto-magically POV renaming this baby.

Fact is that notoriety of Allegations of apartheid for a number of countries has been proven. All of the sudden we can't just turn around a deny it. It would be historical revisionism of the worse kind.--Cerejota 12:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Noboby denies that diverse countries have been accused of apartheid.--Victor falk 13:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• The point of the article on Irsael is to say Israel is the only country in the world that has apartheid. The point of the slew of articles about the other countries is no it is not, look here, here, here and her.--Victor falk 13:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Is wikipedia the place for that kind of articles?--Victor falk 13:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Urthogie's debate topic – Should Misplaced Pages have articles on "Allegations of apartheid"? – clearly begs the question. It assumes that if you think the Israel-Palestine article is well-sourced and notable and should stay, then you have to agree to keep the seven original-research junk articles that have been artificially chained to it. This was the point of Jay and Urthogie's hoax. The original article by itself is solid enough in its foundations to survive six (6) AfDs. The deletionists then had a brainstorm. A sturdily built ship doesn't sink. A sturdily built ship chained to a chunk of concrete eight times its size does sink.

If Urthogie's trick question at the top of the page works, and editors simply assume that because all eight articles have the word "apartheid" in their titles, then all eight articles must have been written with the same respect for WP's core policies, then this "centralized discussion" will have been worthless.

Here is the most succinct – in fact the only – argument put forth by Jay or Urthogie or anyone in support of the assumption outlined in the previous paragraph:

There is an apartheid "meme" or "analogy" or "epithet" that is in common used in regards to all sorts of things, and it's no more nor less valid in any one situation than in any other.

This is sophistry. The question before us as editors is not whether the analogy is "valid" in this or that case. The question is whether use of the analogy has become a notable subject in itself. Here the distinction between primary and secondary sources becomes crucial. For articles about the use of the analogy to be legitimate, they need to cite secondary sources that discuss the analogy and demonstrate its notability. If you cite only primary sources that merely use the analogy, and its notability is implied only by you the Wikipedian, the result is an original research essay. Like the "French apartheid" article.

The question of whether the analogy is offensive or incendiary is totally beside the point. The only question is whether it's notable, and the only way to demonstrate its notability is through secondary sources. To illustrate the point, let's say we accept Jay's position that "Israeli apartheid" is a mere epithet. OK, let's look at a word everyone agrees is an epithet. Let's consider "nigger." Of course we have an article called Nigger, because the significance – historical, cultural, political, psychological – of that epithet in American history is huge. How do we know this? The secondary sources. Books like Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word. Prominent public debates about whether Huckleberry Finn should be taught in elementary schools. And so on. Now let's say someone opposes the existence of the article Nigger, but can't convince enough people to share his position in five or six deletion discussions, so he takes a different tack. He creates Jungle Bunny, Slanty-eyes, Jewball, etc. There are no secondary sources describing the use of such epithets, so instead of finding proper sources he fires up Google and finds every instance where the epithet is used in a primary source. Then he creates a narrative of his own about the history of the epithet, and weaves it around the quotations. Then he creates a template that groups these together with Nigger. Then when anyone nominates Slanty-eyes for deletion on grounds that's it's non-notable and original research, he says "if Slanty-eyes goes, Nigger has to go. No playing favorites." And creates a "centralized discussion" page asking, "Should Misplaced Pages have articles on racial epithets?"

The answer to this leading question is, "if and only if the use of the epithet is a notable topic in itself, as demonstrated by reliable secondary sources."

That is exactly the situation we have here. The secondary-source material on "Israeli apartheid" is voluminous. The comparison is such a controversy in and of itself that there are articles talking about "Israel and the A-word." Kinda like "the N-word." Not so with "French apartheid." There are no secondary sources; it is not a recognized topic outside of Misplaced Pages. There are controversies around France's colonial history, its current problems with assimilation and secularism, and of course the headscarf issue, and in the course of discussing such controversies some scattered voices have found occasion to use the word "apartheid," but the South Africa comparison has never become a topic in its own right. So you can't have a Misplaced Pages article on it. It's that simple.

One last note. If the Israel-Palestine article were sourced in the manner of the France article – that is, if every RS that used the word "apartheid" in connection with Israel were introduced and quoted at length – the article would have not 115+ sources but thousands if not tens of thousands of sources, and it would be the longest article on Misplaced Pages. Though the article in its current form does cite primary sources here and there that use the term if the figures involved are highly notable (as in Desmond Tutu – Idi Amin – Jimmy Carter level of notability), the basic foundations of the article are its secondary sources.

Thanks for reading. Hopefully this will dispel the fog of past sophistries and discourage future ones.--G-Dett 17:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't bother reading past "Jay and Urthogie's hoax". Please review WP:CIVIL. If you can come up with arguments that don't involved ad hominems I might read them. Jayjg 22:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

And yet you seemed to have read the closer, hmmm. You can lead a horse to water...ah, it's not worth it, you probably stopped at "horse".--G-Dett 03:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. Actually, I would gladly write an article of the allegation series titled Allegations of Polish apartheid, and I'm not even a Zionist, rather a Catholic, though I didn't see inside of church since years. What about it? There are pretty good basics to do that - the current president of Poland - Lech Kaczyński's discrimination of gays and lesbians (well documented) would be the topic; denouncing exclusively handful of Polish priests as former SB (Urząd Bezpieczeństwa) agents, while protecting 2 million others including himself, would be the next issue. The third one would be his refusing to pay ex-snitches the special annuity recompensation which is about ten times higher than the average pension, including someone named Morel until recently. I would love to do that, but better be ready then to expect the invasion of body snatchers from Polish Wiki, the brats who descend of that 2 million. An average Polish family cannot afford internet yet, but those brats can and they have nothing else to do but spit. You don't want me to do that, do you? greg park avenue 19:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

For all I know, Greg, your plan to make an allegation of Polish apartheid, or to write an essay about a handful of existing allegations, is a marvelous one. Pitch it to Harpers, or Index on Censorship, or whatever. But if you plan to write a Misplaced Pages article, put your moral arguments and investigative-journalist instincts aside and find some secondary sources who have treated the allegations as a notable topic. I know next to nothing about Polish body snatchers, but a great deal indeed about Wikibrats, and the best way to forfend an article from their onslaught is to write it in compliance with policy. Allegations of Israeli apartheid survived six deletion attempts, for example, while neither Allegations of French apartheid nor Allegations of Jordanian apartheid looks likely to survive even one.--G-Dett 19:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Copy. I love this phrase Wikibrats. Maybe an article titled like that would be more proper? Allegations of French apartheid is not my kind of town but I repeat after Al Pacino in Godfather Part II about the determined Cuban rebels - they may win. greg park avenue 19:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

So you were wrong, G-Dett, the article survived. You were also wrong suggesting that this was one of a chain of superficial junk articles created only to intimidiate the Israeli-Palestine article. If that suggestion was true they would create the Allegations of apartheid in Serbia in first place, but no one did that. Simply because Europe is conveniently silent about what happened in South Bosnia and there are not any allegations of apartheid in Serbia, or at least not so many as these regarding France. We are not here to decide if there is or was any apartheid in Serbia or France, just to acknowledge if such allegations exist or don't exist, right? greg park avenue 15:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I would refer you to Sefringle's comments cited here, where he says explictly that the people responsible for the apartheid articles (he is one of them) are doing it "to antagonize people". It's reprehensible behaviour but I suppose we should thank him for being so honest about the rationale. -- ChrisO 15:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)