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Mkmcconn, your removal of 'as opposed to impersonal processes of nature' is correct. It was a sentence which was already there, I didn't notice the difference. But now your removal seems to be correct because when creationism theory/ belief would have first made its appearance it is unlikely that there would have been scientific theories of evolution. So there would not have been anything that Creationism would have consciously wanted to oppose.KRS 09:06, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Reading your suggestions more attentively, I think I've undone some of the damage. What do you think? Mkmcconn 16:00, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

New New Preface

I have come to the conclusion that further participation in the creationism page is a waste of time. It would appear the overwhelming majority of people find it acceptable to delete factual representation of creationism beliefs because they don't meet their personal goals. There has also been several attempts to show both sides of the issue and these have fallen into one of two patterns. Where creationism shows weakness there is very unprofessional exploitation at the expense of creationists, and where creationism shows strength there is deletion or what is worse, more unproven theories are given as rebuttal.

By the way, I can't help but point out to all the pseudo-scientists that populate this page; two unproven theories that reach the same conclusion means nothing. Were math to be approached in such a manner we would've put all the mathematicians in treatment long ago.

Jtocci 09:55, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm about to give up too. My only hope would be if rednblu would agree to butt out for a week or 2 and let KRS and the 4 M's work on creationism without his interference. Eloquence can referee.

How about that, everybody? --Uncle Ed 14:44, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

If you could please tell your specific viewpoints in terms of your dissatisfaction, it would be good. As Miguel had suggested, and the general consensus is, is to start from the preface. The other topics can be dealt with subsequently.Do you have any objectios to the preface?KRS 16:59, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Jtocci, I don't object to the removal of the "Introduction" label, but I do think that we should keep some kind of demarcation between the disambiguating preface, and the main body of the material where we descend into details. What would you suggest as an alternative? Mkmcconn 15:07, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed it, not Jtocci.

Normally "primary topic" disambiguation is done in italics, as on Paris, and kept very short. Perhaps we need creationism (disambiguation)? Martin 15:51, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The reason that I like KRS's approach to the preface, is because the basic meaning behind the uses of the word is really the same - the difference between them is only point of view and context: especially historical context. I think that she is right, that the introduction must comprehend these diverse uses. I only quibble with trying to make the statements which summarize the POVs and contexts so brief and compacted together, that they are unclear in their meaning. Mkmcconn 16:00, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

OK, I can accept that. I tried to make a disambig page, but couldn't do it very well, so I'll concede that her approach is superior.

I've reinstated an "introduction" header at a different point, to cause maximum confusion... :) Martin

rather than traducianism which holds that the sould is inherited from parents.

I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's looking much better, and clear. Mkmcconn 16:01, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be worth adding ", rather than inherited", though... not sure. Martin 16:13, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm going to leave it for a while, and let all my brain-knots relax. It seems clear enough. The preface is now a gem, in my opinion. I especially like the use of wiktionary there. Mkmcconn 16:21, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The first two sentences in the preface are good,especially the way the links come naturally. But you

(cutting in) That's good! :) When you have a truly co-operative effort going, I often find that myself - edits get made, and because everyone's working in the same direction, I've got no idea who made them - or even if I made them myself! Precious times, and a lot of fun. :) Martin 22:26, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

...seem to have removed the Creationismway of linking so there are 4 words 'creationism is the doctrine' serving as link. Can something be done about that? Most important problem is that the last sentence comes too abruptly. You describe creationism, and suddenly come to the creation controversy- the reader is clueless about this sudden creation controversy.I think the substance of my last sentence in the earlier preface can be reworded/ rephrased according to how you see fit wherein there is a description of how the new creationists see a direct challenge in science to their creation beliefs. You can easily make this in one sentence.KRS 16:53, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Go ahead, KRS. I'm soaking my head. Mkmcconn 16:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

... On second thought, you have given me some ideas. I'll fiddle. Keep critiquing (and feel free to edit). Mkmcconn 17:02, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

KRS, do you have an idea for how to thin out the excursus (in the west, in the US, among fundamentalists) in the preface? The briefer, the better, as long as it's clear, I think. Mkmcconn 17:12, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I will think about it. But I am totally ignorant of the whole subject, so I would never use terms such as Christian fundamentalist, etc., even if it were warranted,because I am a non- ChristianKRS 17:19, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Just hack away at the preface, to tidy it up. There is a thin and beautiful preface within, just waiting to get out. Mkmcconn 17:25, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

fleshing out the historical background

I think the preface is looking really good. KRS is doing a great job and we have Mkmcconn to make sure we get our Christian theology right.

Accordingly, I have moved on to the Introduction. I think the characterization of the controversy and its history is a little simplistic. I have distinguished between Darwin's books Origin of Species and the later Descent of Man. The first one was only really controversial among naturalists (Continental Europe clung to Lamarckism for a really long time), it left plenty of room for God's acts of creation, and did not threaten man's position as God-appointed Lord of Creation. It was the second book that suggested that men and apes had common descent, and left no room for a literal interpretation of Genesis.

I have rearranged the section slightly, and now it doesn't quite seems as coherent as before. Please feel free to hack at it!

I have said that the overview of the controversy is a little simplistic because, from the outset (around 1800) it involves much more than the origin of species. There were huge controversies regarding the age of the Earth, as geologists were beginning to discover that Earth had to be at least hundreds of thousands of years old, not just thousands.

The controversy seems to involve primarily evolution, but that's just scretching the surface. Both creationists and mainstream scientists have been aware from the start that there is an interplay among astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology when it comes to the problem of origins, and that often evolution is not attacked on biological grounds, but by undermining some other science's "theory of origins". For this reason, I would be happier if the article did not stress evolution as the only point of contention.

-- Miguel

The section reads a little bumpy, but you're on the right track. Can you address the flow of thought through this section?

I wonder what the weekend will bring? Looking forward to Monday, I hope I can keep my mind on my holiday. :-) Mkmcconn 22:03, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I have done some reorganisation. Hack away as you please. I want to get out of this:-)---KRS 18:27, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed the following from the preface:

More specifically, it is used in the context of the three important monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity,Judaism and Islam.

It's probably true, but it's only important for a dictionary. For our purposes, I don't think it's necessary.

Also, I removed the word "traducianism" again, as I'd previously mentioned on Talk, for much the same reasons. This time, I replaced it with a piped link to the same place - perhaps this will serve us all sufficiently? Martin

Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. Just a reminder... ;-) Martin

--- I am pleased to find that despite my edit conflict with Martin - losing three paragraphs of changes-- that his edits and mine were quite close, and indeed his were improved over mine own. Thus I am satisfied. :)-戴&#30505sv 19:09, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

Oops - Sorry Stevertigo! :) Martin

Moderates

Martin, you have added so much information on moderate creationism after disambiguating in the preface. Isn't it inappropriate?- KRS 04:36, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well, there are two competing prefaces:

This article describes the modern Creationism controversy, a debate concerning the modern theory of evolution, predominantly associated with Fundamentalist Christianity in the United States.

and:

This article describes Fundamentalist, Christian forms of creationism that see certain theories and findings of science - especially the Theory of Evolution - as directly contradicting its creation beliefs.

I personally prefer the first version, but there's not a vast amount in it. I think the weak attachment to findamentalism is important, as a strong attachment means that we cannot talk about the beliefs and theories of Michael Behe, a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Can we discuss the creationism controversy without reference to irreducible complexity? I don't think so.

Setting aside that issue, I think the beliefs of moderate Intelligent Design advocates are very relevant to this article, as they are an important part of the creationist controversy. While Evolutionary creationists may not themselves be part of the "creationism" we discuss in the preface, their views are just as relevant as the views of materialistic evolutionists, who are certainly well covered. Martin

Martin points out - Do arguments against evolution support creationism? The answer - Nope. Arguments against evidence for biological evolution only could prove that the mechanisms described by scientists are not at play, and that some other mechanism is at play. That's it. These other mechanisms could (in theory) be some form of science we don't understand or know about; they could be a form of magick; they even could be the workings of the Greek and Norse pagan gods! But refuting evidence for evolution does not automatically give logical support for Christian, or any other form of, creationism. However, it seems that most Protestant Christians in the USA are pretty sure that evidence against evolution somehow is evidence for creationism, if not outright proof. Its not strictly logical, but its commonly held. RK 23:12, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

These are certainly solid arguments against the teleological argument: specifically, they suggest that said argument is an argument by lack of imagination. But surely we should cover such arguments in depth there, not here? It's a genuinely interesting philosophical debate, and I'm not sure we'll do it justice on this page. Martin 23:31, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Traducianism

rather than traducianism which holds that the sould is inherited from parents.

I don't think we need it in the intro. On the one hand, it does clarify what material is covered at creationism (theology), but anyone who knows what traducianism will already know what we're covering there. So we can tighten the thing further, like this. Martin 15:57, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Also, I removed the word "traducianism" again, as I'd previously mentioned on Talk, for much the same reasons. This time, I replaced it with a piped link to the same place - perhaps this will serve us all sufficiently? Martin Aug 30, 2003

And once more. Say, does anyone actually read this stuff? ;-) Martin 20:12, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Martin, hiding links, as you did with traducianism, is generally a bad usability practice. It should be clear from a link title what page I'm going to end up on.—Eloquence 02:50, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't think the word "traducianism" provides any extra information to most readers. Either they know about the creationism/traducianism dichotomy, in which case they'll know where the link will go, or they won't, in which case "traducianism" is meaningless anyway.

However, I'll try a slightly different wording. Martin 09:41, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The point is not to use a word that readers will know, the point is to use a link title that clearly shows that this link points to another definition. If we use the specific term for one link, and an unspecific term for another, that might lead readers to believe that the belief that souls are inherited does not have a substantial theological tradition. Furthermore, by using the word in the text, we provide a reasonably short definition for both terms without a need for readers to waste their time reading tons of exegesis.—Eloquence

I still believe that people coming here don't want, or need, a link or explanation of traducianism - it's purely a disambiguation issue. However, I'll give way. Martin 12:37, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have no problem with turning the whole thing into a standard disambig notice in italics on top of the article that only points to creationism (theology). If it's in the text, however, it should be reasonably descriptive.—Eloquence 13:30, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Right direction?

In spite of Eloquence's sarcasm- and also because of his additions now, I think there is some amount of coherence now in the preface and in the historical overview- especially now that the last para of the historical overview outlines the current definition.I hope that no one tampers with it now without discussion on the talk page. But just to add some more controversy:-) now that the creationism is built into the introduction, because the link has the same name as the page do you think people would follow such a link? Otherwise, I think one can move further to the next section.--KRS 05:20, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

While much improved, the current article still emphasizes a very myopic view of creationism. To wit, creationism qua creation science. Even the disambiguation of creationism (theology) in re the genesis of souls is incomplete and incorrect, reflecting the bias of a scientific point of view rather than an NPOV discussion which would include a theological discussion of the underlying issue of what was the first cause. Nonetheless, as the content of the current article is expanded, I believe that the need for a separate article entitled creation science will become obvious. -- NetEsq 06:07, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I agree with NetEsq that creationism and creation science are not the same thing. -- Miguel

KRS, Eloquence, etc.: the "Creationism (theology)" link is buried, and is somewhat misleading. As written, it sounds as though the "traditional Christian doctrine" holds that God has only created individual souls of people, but has no doctrine that all things are created by God. What it means to say is that "the traditional Christian doctrine, called creationism, is not the same thing as the traditional doctrine of creation. I would like to see another round of edits on the preface, to fix this problem. Can you stand it? Mkmcconn 16:04, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I didn't mean it quite that way. I just meant that you could have clarity as to the fact that there is a traditional/ moderate/ theological/whatever type of creationism by either 1] having some word in the bracket or whatever or 2]the usual disambiguation clause along with the disambiguation of creation beliefI don't think your point about the meaning is well taken because the first sentence clearly brings out the general meaning of the term- which includes creation of everything. The next sentence on creationism theology has to be 'read' along with the first sentence and includes the meaning of the first sentence, you don't have to again bring in the same idea.So I don't think there is a problem there at all--KRS 16:35, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Also, the sentence on creationism is the same as you had written previously--KRS 16:49, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Regardless of who wrote the sentence, it strikes me now as not being clear, situated as it is in the paragraph. '"Xism refers to act X for all things. Traditionally, Xism refers to act X for soul." Is familiarity with the subject required, in order to understand how "traditional" implicitly contrasts the meanings? It seems that the two sentences together unintentionally imply a contrast of, "soul" with "all things", instead of "use B" with "use A". You don't think so? Mkmcconn 17:14, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Will re-read it and get back-KRS 17:28, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

How about something more like this:

This article describes the creation beliefs primarily of Fundamentalist Christianity, that are strongly opposed to some findings of mainstream biology and cosmology, and to the Theory of Evolution in particular. The popular use of the term is assumed, rather than the terminology of traditional Christian theology according to which creationism is the doctrine that every human soul is created by God, as opposed to inherited (traducianism).

Mkmcconn 18:27, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Progress over Labor Day Weekend

I would like to thank everyone for laboring over the creationism article while I rested! It begins better, and reads more smoothly. Hats off to User:Rednblu who apparently abstained from the process for awhile.

One area of weakness remains: the treatment of intelligent design is little better than a rebuttal: it's almost entirely an argment against, and contains hardly any information about ID itself. The central thrust of ID, its contention that life shows "signs of having been designed" or its appeal to the concept of irreducible complexity, are both hard to find in the article as of Sept. 2nd 2003.

But otherwise, great work! -- Uncle Ed 17:59, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Maybe the whole intelligent design subject should be treated at intelligent design exclusively.—Eloquence

Joyce Arthur about creationism

• Arthur, Joyce: Creationism: Bad Science or Immoral Pseudoscience? About creationist Duane Gish. Published in the Skeptic, magazine of the Skeptic Society, Vol. 4, No. 4, 1996, pp. 88-93.

The tone of the web site mentioned above is rather polemic. It doesn't do the whole debate a favor basically calling religious people liars, asking some rhetoric questions and then telling stories which may or may not be true. The other two references under evolution are of good quality. Isn't it possible to handle the whole stuff a bit less emotional? There are surely other good web pages. JackH 14:35, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Are we reading the same article? The article does not call religious people liars, and it does not tell stories "which may or may not be true". In fact, you have totally distorted it beyond reason. This article contains a very serious and well documented expose of the way that certain religious fundamentlists brazenly lie, plagarize and deceive their readers in order to attack science and push their religious views. This article is very representative of the complaints that scientists have about the way their work is deliberately misrepresented by the religious right-wing. (And I say this as a person long on the record as a religious person, as well as a scientist.) if countering scientific dishonesty, plagiarism and deception is "polemic" then all of science and history is polemic. RK 23:31, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

JackH, please do not remove links because you do not agree with the tone of presentation. Links may well be one-sided -- NPOV applies to Misplaced Pages articles, not to links. That's why we have plenty of pro-creationist links, even though creationists spend much of their time spreading fraudulent information about science and scientists.—Eloquence 04:37, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

@RK: Yes, we are reading the same websit ;-) If you think that the article well represents the level of argumentation of anti-creationists than we should include it. I wonder that you as a religious person don't feel offended by the very questionable opening citation of Martin Luther where he seems to be in favor of lying for a good cause. An opening citation is like a motto. Within this context it means that creationist are religious people thinking it is necessary to tell lies in favor of a good cause. To me doesn't seem to be a particularily good environment for a helpful debate. It rather heats up the discussion in an emotionalized way. I wonder if there are no better sites with arguments against creationism. However I agree with you that there might be right-wing people using unfair methods of debate. Within the context of the article it means that pro-evolutionists seem to be ill equipped if they have to resort to such a style.

@Eloquence: You are right. We probably should have this citation unless we have something better. However I took the liberty to attribute this source to make my views represented.

To all: As this seems to be an interesting topic for many I suggest that we put some energy in the article itself. For example we could deal with the individual arguments in a more intensive way.

I put the pro and con arguments in a table. They are mere outlines and need considerably more flesh. Neither pros or cons are really convincing unless more details are given. Who could help? --JackH 10:42, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Eloquence seems to think still that the Arthur site is a valuable resource against creationism. I do not share this view. The article cites the page as if it is an authoritative thing and even does a generalisation about all creationists as beeing similar to Gish who is severly bashed. This is not decent style. In fact Eloquence has wiped out such a tiny remark of mine as that labels the Arthur page as an example of an anti-creationist page. Really weird. He depicted the remark as 'POV'. However Eloquence may have it his way. There are other things to do ;-)

You just don't get it, do you? You want to modify the description of a single link you do not like to say that it is "an example of an anti-creationist page" (implying that it is representative, which may or may not be the case, but which is certainly a point of view that, if it is held, needs to be attributed), while ignoring the fact that we list 7 (!) pro-creationist websites without any commentary whatsoever as to their content. Both types of websites are clearly listed in their respective categories. What you are trying to do is to preemptively create an impression of bias or an inappropriate style for links which point to a side of the argument which you do not like -- attacking creationists where it hurts, their personal credibility (or lack thereof), credulity, and unfortunate tendency to distort the truth for their own purposes. This, however, is not a POV that Misplaced Pages itself assumes -- it is merely one which needs to be represented, among the other idiotic creationist diatribes, "creationist news" websites and the various other crap which your ridiculous movement keeps churning out at an impressive rate, fattened with the funds stolen from the gullible fools who fall for the idiot religion which this movement represents and who would love nothing better than to live in the kind of shallow and repressive theocracy which it seeks to create. Your point of view is noted, but it is not one which Misplaced Pages itself will ever assume, and the lies and distortions made by the creationists need to be pointed out whenever and wherever they occur.—Eloquence 21:23, Sep 18, 2003 (UTC)

describe your links (but on both sides). Martin 22:03, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The link is described, Martin. JackH does not merely want to describe it -- he wants the description to reflect an opinion.—Eloquence

Look past his bigotry toward the Christian religion, and listen to Eloquence on this issue. He is right. Please drop it. Mkmcconn 22:42, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

OK, I'll drop the issue attributing the Jocye reference. Perhaps somebody other might pick this up. A summary for those who didn't follow the discussion: Eloquence deleted my attribute to the Joyce reference which was worded as follows. A particular example of an anti-creationist page. Contrariwise he seems to think it is necessary to tell the readers that Joyce reference is a "critical review". In fact it is a primitive elaborate just bashing a creationist. The whole thing is cited in the wp article as if this is something authoritative. One would expect that we find the results of an effort of careful work not just hate-speech like the one above by Eloquence. If this is anti-creationism at it's best - well then .... :-) But why do we label this as critical? It is not so much the reference as such but the use of the reference which I think is not OK. Let's look at the individual arguments in the future. --JackH 14:02, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

<< is a primitive elaborate just bashing a creationist.>>

The above discussion prompted me to read the Joyce article, and I found it to be a very accurate narrative exposition of the fallacious forensic tactics that are typically employed by creation scientists. The use of such tactics is the essence of the creation science controversy and is the true source of the animosity that most mainstream evolutionary biologists have for Fundamentalist Christians, whether those biologists be Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, etc., etc., or secular agnostics/atheists.

Those who interpret the Joyce article as an indictment of Gish are correct in doing so, as Gish has always demonstrated a reckless disregard for the truth, and no amount of equivocation can change that fact. But for the tactics employed by Gish and his ilk, the topic of creationism would have moved on to more scholarly theological and philosophical questions long ago, such as the nature of the primordial first cause. -- NetEsq 20:49, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Why didn't God create the world as scientists see and explain it?

Would a Creationist or two, of differning views, please explin to me why, or if, Creationists believe that God didn't create the world complete with all of the scientific evidence to stimulate man, just as the many beautiful aspects of the world do so. It's surely within the capability of an omnipotent god to do so, so why isn't this answer used to eliminate the conflict between Creationism and science and have scientists be exploring the world god created for them to explore?

There are a couple of double-negatives in there, that make the question hard to follow. Maybe your question could be rephrased? If you have the impression from the article that, creationists do not encourage the exploration of the world on the presupposition that God created the world for just this purpose among other things, then that should be fixed. This is precisely what the creationists do argue. Mkmcconn 00:33, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well, I frankly don't understand conflict between Creationism and science (and the fundamental beliefs of Creationists in relation to scientific records), so I'm seeking to try to better understand it, in the hope that curing some of my ignorance might resut in some questions or answers which can improve the article. I see no way for a scientist to counter an argument that an omnipotent god created the world complete with an intact fossil record, evolution to be discovered and whatever else, just as part of the design of the god, for the benefit of the humans created. Given that, I also don't see why teaching science is any more controversial than teaching art, for they both become no more than ways to study the creation. Scientist says "fossil record shows x billion years of history", Creationist says "Yes, isn't it wonderful how God created that record". Seems to me to be a very short conversation, ending in an a point which is completely irrefutable by any scientific method, but given all of the heat I must be missing something very significant.

It's a very old argument - as old as the discovery of fossils <G> - and the problem is that it requires a deceptive God - one who plants clues to a false past. Those who are uncomfortable with the notion of a deceptive God will therefore be uncomfortable with it. -- Someone else 01:17, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The "apparent age" way of harmonizing science with creation gives up the argument of creation science (CS of one sort, anyway). Creation science says that flood geology and miraculous creation are evident. "Apparent age" says that these are not evident, and attempts to explain why. Mkmcconn 02:48, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Also:

• Those who support a literal interpretation of the Bible believe that evolution is an out-and-out falsehood (and possibly a deliberate deception as well).
• Since some sects of Christians are encouraged to witness for Christ, they tend to be unwilling to walk away from the argument. Some evolution supporters take atheism as an "article of faith", and are equally unwilling to walk away from the argument.
• Creationists may also believe that the preponderance of the evidence supports (some form of) Creationism, leading to arguments about data interpretation. -- Cyan 01:52, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I still don't know what people mean by "literal", here. If this is short-hand for a particular interpretation, it would help me if "six twenty-four hour days, global flood, and Bishop Ussher timetable" were indicated, instead of "literal". Too often "literal" seems to be a mild criticism instead of a description. Mkmcconn 02:48, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Reptile - mammal transition

Argument number 6 on the evolutionist side gives a reference - . Could somebody specifiy which link is meant? --JackH 16:00, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

On the history of "the controversy"

I just tweaked the historical section again. I realize there is a disagreement in the interpretation of the facts, and the motivation of the actual events. So let's debate this ourselves in the talk page. Let me spell out my POV on this, so we can discuss it while I look for references to fully document it.

My idea is to frame the evolution/creation debate withing the larger question of the "problem of origins" (which should have its own page). Religious cosmologies are not limited to the origin of the species of living things, and humanity in particular, but include accounts of the origin of the Earth, and untimately the whole universe, more or less detailed depending on ow explicit the description of the actual cosmology is. Scientific theories of origins are similarly broad in scope.

Regarding the origin of the Earth (and the solar system), at the turn of the 19th century, Laplace put forth his theory of planetesimals. There is a famous anecdote in which Laplace recounts his theory to Napoleon, and remarks that God isn't a necessary hypothesis.

At around the same time, geologists were starting to discover that the Earth could not possibly be 6,000 years old, for a variety of reasons. See The Map That Changed the World: William Smith and the Birth of Modern Geology.

Also around this time, Lamarck's theory of evolution by inheritance of acquired characteristics was widely accepted, and there was no significant religious debate presumably because there was no concept of speciation, and more importantly, because nobody dared postulate a common origin for men and beasts.

When Darwin (himself an ordained minister) came along, the controversy was not with Christian cosmology, but with Lamarckism. This is actually the origin of the modern debate on macro/microevolution, on speciation as an observable phenomenon, etc.

It is only when Darwin applies his theory to humans that the religious debate starts in earnest. However, already in the 18th century Linnaeus had classified humans among the apes, but putting humans in a genus (homo) containing a single species. The point is that Darwin was not the first to challenge man's unique position in creation, but he was the first to do so in a way that was obvious to most people, which ignited the debate.

In the late 19th century, the geological dating of the Earth ran into trouble because it was impossible to explain where the sun could get the energy to shine for so long. The discovery of radioactivity solved this particular problem, dealing the final blow to young earth theories and also providing the basis for radioactive dating.

By the turn of the 20th century evolution is widely accepted, and the intensity of the religious debate is rather low. The creationist movement experiences a resurgence in the US around WWI. If I am not mistaken this coincides with the birth of the modern fundamentalist christians.

But the problem is that, by this time, the scientific debate has moved on. The fundamentalists were about 100 years late to influence the discussion of the scientific theories. Even their opposition to Darwin's theory is of a different character than the Victorian opposition.

Anyway, the current historical overview actually covers the prehistory of creationism (understood as an offshoot of fundamentalist christianity). A history of creationism since about 1915 is sorely lacking. -- Miguel

Yes, more on history would be great! --JackH 18:25, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Miguel, Playing the Devil's Advocate, or rather God's advocate,I feel that your current elaboration of the historical overview makes it look more like a historical overview of evolution. Can you make it into one para? You yourself have said that it lacks the 20th century history. Probably adding that would make it more balanced.

I made the changes I made because it seemed to me that the account of the when and why the reaction to Darwin happened was misleading. I will condense all of it into one paragraph. It is not my intention to make it look like an introduction to evolution. And I totally agree that Creationism should be presented on its own merits, and the scientific arguments against evolution belong squarely in the creation science article.

Regarding the history of creationism proper, in encyclopedia articles we have a tendency to overemphasize the oldest roots of whatever we are writing about. In this case, however, since it is agreed that the article is primarily about the fundamentalist christian creationist movement, all we have written on the history is actually prehistory, and that situation should be remedied.

Now, I am not qualified to write the 20th century history of creationism, as I can only write from the history of science side and, as I argue here, the scientific side of the debate was pretty much closed by the time the fundamentalists came about . Since I don't know that much about the specific history, I found the article fundamentalism very instructive. -- Miguel

In an encylopedia Creationism should be understood for what it is rather than proving one's point either way. The talk page discussion looks as if a theological discussion is going on rather than arriving at encycopaedic definitions. And the arguments for and against Creationism in a tabular form makes it even more so.A summary would be much better than a tabular column. Everyday the balance seems to be tilted one way or the other.KRS 14:56, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The two creation stories in the Bible

I feel that the whole issue of creationism cannot be discussed properly without considering what the Bible actually says about creation in the two stories at the beginning of the Book of Genesis. I hope that other readers and contributors will find this of interest and use. (MG)

The Genesis stories are only relevant as an issue to Young Earth Creationism. Therefore, I propose moving the section into the article on YEC. Martin 09:49, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This is a bit of an overstatement. The way that the Genesis story is interpreted has very much to do with all versions of Christian Creationism. Genesis is supposedly irrelevant to "scientific creationism" (predominantly advanced by Young Earth proponents, to adapt their view for the public school classroom), but I'm not alone in thinking that this is a very strange claim. Mkmcconn 15:22, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. You're right: I didn't express myself clearly, and my thoughts weren't too clear too start off with. I'll come back later. Martin 16:33, 22 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I would like to reiterate my point above. Creationism cannot be discussed properly unless we consider what the Bible actually says in the two creation stories. Then, and only then, is it possible to consider critically how the two stories are interpreted by various parties, both Creationist and not.(MG)