Misplaced Pages

Excessive detail belongs in the 'battle article' - I agree. --AussieSoldier 13:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The above is not about 'defeat' at all - it seems you have read it incorrectly. --AussieSoldier 13:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suggest having a small paragraph about the battle itself which sets the scene for the occupation, and a link to the 'battle article'. --AussieSoldier 13:46, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Chineese were defeated by the japaneese during ww2 I think. I understand the nature of the battle was very unpleasant, brutal at least. Thats fine. The exact sentence above (my italicied text) for instance just is unnecesary. Do japaneese see this same? As traumatic/blody ? If so no need to tune this down or elaborade. --Cool Cat 14:17, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AussieSoldier, I see you as a reasonable, civil, and knowlegable individual. Would it be fair if I see you as the Chineese or Pro Massacre view? Would you mind me inviting people with same qualities as you to this article whom are likely to disagree with material? Perhaps you may choose the people you can discuss this as I dont want you to deal with an uncivilised attitude? I am not trying to provoke a revert-war but NPOV encourages any significant view be present, how contraversial they may be of course is open for debate. --Cool Cat 14:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

yes, whatever pleases you Coolcat - I am neutral here - but I hold neutrality to be about facts and not about the nationalistic veiws of Japan or China. AussieSoldier

Duplication

According to the history page, you seem to have duplicated the whole page. Please look at the index. Since I only know the way to delete section by section, by hand, I don't want to do that labour by myself. It would be nice if you could delete the latter half of the duplication. Please delete this section too once you have completed it.

I would also suggest you and others to click on the "Show preview" button before clicking "Save page" button all the time and leave your whole history of editing. --Gerryben 15:31, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is a result of the "Edit wars" I am having with parties not involved in the actual discussion but keep reverting points we agreed on. --Cool Cat 15:39, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cool Cat, It is duplicated solely by youself. Here is the evidence. Please recover. I would be grateful if you could listen to my second suggestion too. --Gerryben 15:58, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is a result of two people posting at the same time, I fixed it. You only need to tell me a problem once, I was working on it while you were typing. I actualy merged them rather than deleting. I thought you ment the article itself having this problem on my post above. --Cool Cat 16:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. (It seems that you deleted my post completely, i.e. deleted the first half half of the duplication rather than second, but I can recover it and don't worry. I wish you haven't deleted others' too, though.) Sorry for confusion but you can clearly see that there have never been "edit war" today if you look at the history page. (My second suggestion will help too in order to make the situation better.)

By the way, shouldn't this section be moved to the first half of the current version, since the latter half of the current version seems to be originally meant to be the exclusively an editing page for a better article. The classification would be better in the line of "Discussion" and "Edition" etc.

Anyway, thanks for your work.--Gerryben 16:20, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Chinese and Japanese only have one "e" in them. -Uther Dhoul.

Lead

The following rewording is suggested

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the ], including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to ] on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (a war that would later become a part of World War II). To this day, the event continues to stir Chinese anger.

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to conduct by the Imperial Japanese Army in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), later become a part of World War II. The Imperial Japanese Army is accused of looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians during the same era. The incident had been a diplomatic dispute between China and Japan since 1972.

• I assume this wasnt a diplomatic issue since 1972. Is this correct? I am basing this on the article already there. --Cool Cat 15:37, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Japan and China didn't have diplomatic relations before 1972. Until 1972 Japan recognized the Republic of China government in Taiwan. -- ran (talk) 16:41, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
• You see "what many historians recognize" as fary taling, I agree so no need for this. --Cool Cat 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • ... well, the only people who don't seem to agree are right-wing politicians and historians in Japan. -- ran (talk) 16:41, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
• Since this is a dispute its best not to start with conclusions. Starting with open mind and then making cases in the article is a good lead. --Cool Cat 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Disagreement with such a change? --Cool Cat 15:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looks okay to me. However I would also mention that this dispute does not only caused diplomatic discourse, but also met with public disapproval, as seen from recent widespread protests. --Kvasir 22:28, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What a mess

I got a scare after I returned to this topic after days. A revert war has started, the talk page has been a complete mess, and the amount of pointless drivel here in the past few days make me seem as if I ended in a forum page. What happened, and can you people exercise some restrain. Mandel 16:11, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

It seems that there was an machine error. See the Duplication section. --Gerryben 16:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

Here's an attempt at a rewrite:

Instead of:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the Japanese army, including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (a war that would later become a part of World War II). To this day, the event continues to stir Chinese anger.

I have:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the Japanese army, including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), a war that would later become a part of World War II. The Nanjing Massacre was quoted to have a death toll of 300,000 at the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal.

To this day, the event continues to be highly controversial. In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted, as are descriptions of various atrocities by both eyewitnesses and official government accounts. In Japan, opinions are more divided, with some people accepting the extent of the massacre as presented by the Tribunal, and others denying that it ever happened. There is a general sentiment in Japan, especially among the right wing, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions, however, are considered by Chinese people as historical revisionism, and as such continue to stir anger and resentment.

-- ran (talk) 16:53, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

It reads pretty NPOV to me at least, though the last sentence of the opening paragraph may be disputed by some users. The 300, 000 controversial figure ought to be mentioned later in the article - at least it won't read as if it is an accepted fact. Mandel 18:04, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

I second that. However, if the 300,000 figure had been decided upon in the Tribunal, i don't see why it can't be where it is. A figure is neccessary to illustrate why it was considered a massacre. --Kvasir 22:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Okay, like this then:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the Japanese army, including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), a war that would later become a part of World War II. The Nanjing Massacre was quoted to have a death toll of 300,000 at the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal, and there are also estimates ranging down to about 40,000.

To this day, the event continues to be highly controversial. In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted, as are descriptions of various atrocities by both eyewitnesses and official government accounts. In Japan, opinions are more divided, with some people accepting the extent of the massacre as presented by the Tribunal, and others denying that it ever happened. There is a general sentiment in Japan, especially among the right wing, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions, however, are considered by Chinese people as historical revisionism, and as such continue to stir anger and resentment.

-- ran (talk) 18:28, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC

I have to say that I'm really in favor of the direction that Ran is going with the writing. Here's my support for updating the article according to this kind of writing style. --Rroser167 18:59, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. The rewrite looks good to me. Nandesuka 22:12, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The rewrite looks good to me, but a small statement can be made on the general western perception and account, not just on the Chinese and Japanese claims. This article, for example, slightly leans towards the Chinese side, and there were also foreigners (esp Christian missionaries) present when the massacre occurred. --Jiang 01:50, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jiang - It must be stated that it is Japan only who hold such perception and it is NOT only China who hold the opposite perception, namely, the rest of the world hold that a massacre occured. --AussieSoldier 03:12, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If the statement "The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted" is meant to be "accepted by Chinese people", it must be made clearer.

Also, at least the following fact must be included in the article for NPOV: the Chinese delegate to the League of Nations at the time put the civilian toll at 20,000 and a Communist Chinese newspaper of the period put it at 42,000.

I have already linked the review article by an Australian researcher working on this subject. (This has been already linked in Archive 1 and I wonder why people do not try to start from basic facts.) If this was not enough for you, I show another article written by Nicholas D . Kristof on New York Times, December 20, 2003.

"Even the Chinese recounting of history has become hysterical. Take the Rape of Nanjing in 1937, which was so brutal that there's no need to exaggerate it. One appalled witness in the thick of the killing, John Rabe, put the death toll at 50,000 to 60,000. Another, Miner Searle Bates, estimated that 12,000 civilians and 28,000 soldiers had been killed. The Chinese delegate to the League of Nations at the time put the civilian toll at 20,000. A Communist Chinese newspaper of the period put it at 42,000."

"Yet China proclaims, based on accounts that stand little scrutiny, that 300,000 or more were killed. Such hyperbole abuses history as much as the denial by Japanese rightists that there was any Rape of Nanjing at all. It nurtures nationalism by defining China as a victim state, the world's punching bag, that must be more aggressive in defending its interests."

Note that he is not a ultra right wing Nazi sympathizer, nor does worship Emperor. (If so, he could not write any article on NYT.) Contrary, he is generally pro-China and describes himself as "one who loves China and is rooting for it to succeed", e.g. he has written an article reporting that Japan removed Nanjing Massacre material from original plan for museum on World War II.--Gerryben 05:29, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... So what is the lowest numbers japaneese claim and higest chineese? I see it as good practice to write the lowest and higest claims as a range. --Cool Cat 06:02, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Highest is in the range of 300,000 or so. Lowest would probably be 0. -- ran (talk) 15:36, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

this version is acceptable by me, good work. --Kvasir 22:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

..

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to what many historians recognize as widespread atrocities conducted by the ], including the looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to ] on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (a war that would later become a part of World War II). To this day, the event continues to stir Chinese anger.

• The statement above (last version you guys came up with) is a bit confusing, how about the follwoing? Keep in mind this is a lead statement while I also have difficulty to write a short lead statement on many articles it should contain maximum information and minimum and less perspectives. We can discuss that in detail below. --Cool Cat 06:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes in Japan as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to conduct by the Imperial Japanese Army in and around Nanjing, China after its fall to Japanese troops on December 13, 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945), later become a part of World War II. The Imperial Japanese Army is accused of looting, rape, and killing of Chinese civilians during the same era which a death toll is estimated in the range 40,000—300,000 however was quoted as 300,000 at the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal. The event continues to stay highly controversial and also is a diplomatic dispute between China and Japan

• Not exactly delete but relocate the material below. Its "details" right? --Cool Cat 06:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
• Lead should not alarm anybodies beliefs. That way people will read on. --Cool Cat 06:40, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• • Okay, I cannot accept the description of the Nanjing Massacre as the "conduct of the Japanese Imperial Army". That already alarms my beliefs (and a good indication too is how many people are complaining). The Nanjing Massacre is an accusation of horrendous atrocities. Either it happened or it didn't. Those who don't think any atrocities occurred wouldn't use the term in the first place. Those who think it did are going to call it an atrocity.
  • You have to see that NPOV is not about toning down language (atrocity -> conduct), because that offends even more people. How about toning down the Holocaust article ("The Holocaust refers to the conduct of the Nazis...") to please neo-Nazis? Or a less extreme example -- toning down (say) Islam ("Islam is a dubious and unsupported belief system") to please virulent anti-Islam fundies? NPOV is about presenting views in their full form. This means presenting the Nanjing Massacre both as an atrocity (since that's how people who believe in it view it) and also as a fabrication. (And to use the Islam example -- Islam should be described as whatever the Muslims think it to be in full, and also what everyone else thinks it to be in full, not some halfway compromise that will piss everyone off.) -- ran (talk) 15:31, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry, the lead statement can contain no conclusions in a well written article, that will promote the need of one of the disputed, pov. or totallydisputed tags. You are welcome to find a word defines the incident that wont bother both sides. Neither Islamic beliefs nor Holocaust is disputed either at a govermental or academic level. There is no serrious dispute, for najing that is the case. I do not determine international politics and acadamenia, it just is. I made minor research before comeing here, I was aware of the level of disagreements. I am not qulaified to discuss these disagreements, no one is. I am qualified to help them presented in a reasonable manner. --Cool Cat 09:33, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(Ran - I agree completely with what you have written above). --AussieSoldier 00:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks AussieSoldier. :)

Coolcat: You are welcome to find a word defines the incident that wont bother both sides. . There is no such word. That's the problem. -- ran (talk) 15:43, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Then the solution is easy, its not going to be displayed at all. You cannot start the lead by acknowlieging this as Massacre. --Cool Cat 02:45, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

To this day, the event continues to be highly controversial. In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. The given death toll of 300,000 is generally accepted, as are descriptions of various atrocities by both eyewitnesses and official government accounts. In Japan, opinions are more divided, with some people accepting the extent of the massacre as presented by the Tribunal, and others denying that it ever happened. There is a general sentiment in Japan, especially among the right wing, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions, however, are considered by Chinese people as historical revisionism, and as such continue to stir anger and resentment.

• One problem I have above is the level of generalisation, I not sure if all Chineese/Japaneese uniformaly agree to that statements. Also the usage of "historical revisionism" may appear like an accusation. What do you think? Generaly its good and NPOV, I dont think its lead material though. --Cool Cat 06:23, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Of course historical revisionism is an accusation. If Japanese accusations of "fabrication" are going to appear in the intro then so should Chinese accusations of "revisionism". Also, I don't see how this can be written with less generalization... after all, the article already states that some Japanese people do agree with the account of the Massacre. -- ran (talk) 15:33, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with ran as above --AussieSoldier 16:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Both sides are acussing each other of fabrication. Neither sides accusation should be presented as an accusation. --Cool Cat 09:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Then what do we present? There would be nothing left to say, except for a halfway account of things that will offend both sides. -- ran (talk) 15:43, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

• I honestly am impresed the way you guys are discussing this. Thanks. --Cool Cat 06:41, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC) Ok, this isnt going well... I take that back. --Cool Cat 09:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

CoolCat what are you doing? It is an encyclopedia and aint page of opinions! write what happend and not what any people think happend. doesnt matter if they all agree, its about what happend. it aint a reconciliation page of opinions.

Whoever youy are FIRST sign your post, you can do that by either clicking on the icon between W and -- on the top bar, 2nd rigten most or you could type: --~~~~. History has varous explanations. All notable views are REQUIRED to be present, this is an online Encyclopedia. Or you will have to deal with {{totallydisputed}} tag. What happened is not the issue here, you have to understand that this incident is seen diferently in Japan, as you can clearly see at the last paragraph, japaneese are not accepeting this as a massacre, like it or not those are notable views as far as NPOV is concerned. Therefore must be present. Even articles like creationism exists, wikipedia is based on everybodies facts even if those facts conflict. I am not suggesting you or the japaneese are lying. But this is how articles are written. Because I know nothing regarding the incident I see my self capable of pointing out when people get carried away. --Cool Cat 08:40, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Memorial Hall photo

There's a stark "carving" of sorts at the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall in Nanjing, which says in 3 languages; "遇难者 Victims 遭難者 300000". There's a photo at . I believe there's also a wall covered with the names of victims. I wonder if anyone has a GFDL version? -- ran (talk) 16:58, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Current 'neutraliser' is not neutral!!

Coolcat - I have had a look at the history of the 'Armenian Genocide' discussion page - you clearly have other intentions here - I ask you stand down as 'neutraliser' immediately. --AussieSoldier 04:15, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You can't order me around. You cant order anyone around. I will tag along as an adviser then. Just becasue I am polite I am accepting this. This article is NOT neutral. I was banned for 18 hours so that no one else in the discussion did, I see it as self sacrifice. Can you elaborate what my intentions are? --Cool Cat 08:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am acting as a mediator in nanjing massacre which requires me to not hold views either way. I am neither denying or acknowliging any material. It is hard to deal with NPOV when people have strong views regarding the article. --Cool Cat 08:27, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

User:Coolcat has no official role as a mediator; this is merely a self-applied label. He has previously attempted to cast himself in the role of 'mediator' on Talk:Armenian Genocide, Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh and Talk:Greco-Turkish relations, where he has met considerable resistance. He loves to use coloured text on talk pages and quote highly unique interpretations of Misplaced Pages policies, especially NPOV. Anyone is free to reject his self-styled 'mediation' and any advice he offers. He has been known to engage in personal attacks and edit other users talk page postings. — Davenbelle 09:00, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

You have no official status either. I am trying to help, you are not. --Cool Cat 09:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Talk:Armenian Genocide I was insulted on an edit basis.
• Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh I still apear as a mediator, no discussion has been made in this article last time I checked.
• Talk:Greco-Turkish relations My mediation attempt was destroyed by several people affiliated with Talk:Armenian Genocide, My suggestions are visible, my edits to the artilce is vissible. Misplaced Pages is anybody can edit median, I can assume any label. I never said I was official. I am only trying to help here regardless of the outside interference by several people affiliated with Talk:Armenian Genocide

"Official status" is such an Anti-wiki philosophy. I am a user, period. I am, however, most certainly here to help. — Davenbelle 09:37, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Hence no one can be an official mediator. thank you. --Cool Cat 09:38, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You just posted what 4th comment on which all you were discussing me. --Cool Cat 09:39, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

why were you banned for 18 hours?

I reverted the article more than 3 times. I did not want the version to change, and I did not want the image concenssus to be affected. 3rr (three revert rule) dictates article not to be reverted more than 3 times. This rule is enforced. --Cool Cat 08:52, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My first real mediation effort was in that article. That article is not Neutral. I was accused of many things and irritated/insulted on a daily basis. I learnt alot from past mistakes I am learning more about mediation while working here. Mediation is an art in which you never stop learning. Pretty much like Kung-fu, the chineese fighting art. I recomend ignoring outside interference from people in Armenian Genocide for their comments regarding me. I am ignoring them, so should you. The discussion started ok, lets not make a mess out of it. Random people who just locked the topic (like silsor did here) due to 3rr violations. --Cool Cat 09:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let me mention something about US History. Untill the modern times Indians (Native Americans) were accused of massacring pilgrims, soldiers, villeges. Every one believed this throughout the world. Even on compic books this was there. Today this is not the case. And even "Indians" are pardoned for the mistreatment and false accusations they recieved. What does this mean? Historic "facts" are not allways the way they appear. While I am not suggesting this is the case in this article, as far as the Japannese ("revisionists" as you call them) think otherwise. You are not required to accept their views by no means, and neither they are to accept yours. Please understand that they "believe" their facts are as factual as you believe yours are. That is why you should not accuse japan or the japannese. This is why you may not be able to see what appears to the other side as opinions. I can see this not been affected by either sides views. I am not trying to make things look nice, neither side is suggesting what happened was pretty. They see it as a consequence of war is that correct? Chineese see this as massacre right? See the conflict in facts? Now whenever the japannese comunity withdraws their opposition this wont be an issue, currently that is not the case. --Cool Cat 09:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Shall we follow suit and dimiss the Holocaust becuase some neo-Nazis have opposition that it happened?! AussieSoldier

No, because only a minority sees a problem. No issues at a govermental or academic level. --Cool Cat 09:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have accounted for the lack of government level recognition - please see above. AussieSoldier

Define "governmental or academic levels", If minor political parties say it, is it on a "governmental level"? If a small number of professors say it, is it on an "academic level"? -- ran (talk) 15:48, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

As an acting mediator I still will not take sides. I am not disputing or acknowlinging any material as facts because of my seat. Since you object me being a mediator, I will not conflict with you. I wish we could work on the problem in the same relationship. I dont want to leave the topic though untill either you can find a replacement for me, or withdraw your request. Meanwhile I will comment on things you ask me only. --Cool Cat 09:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coocat - you stated above, "All parties should not be discussing ... each others culture." It is sometimes pertinent to discuss the culture of Japan to elucidate the reason for such and such - if it is not allowed, then how can the article ever be 'neutral'. The purpose to discuss culture IS NOTHING to do with personal attacks, yet it is to do with the content of the article - you have to make such distinction otherwise you are not 'neutral' at all. --AussieSoldier 08:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As to motivation - it may be described in terms of nationalism and culture in general. The culture in Japan is complex. It is often described by foreigners as 'sadistic'.--AussieSoldier 13:05, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This above can lead to a persons block on wikipedia, evade such material I suggest. --Cool Cat 09:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Collcat - you stae yourself that ALL veiws must be presented as part of NPOV - if it is the common veiw by FOREIGNERS - it is not MY veiw - then what is the problem - you are far form neutral, and you are predjudiced as you seem to hold all cultures are alike. AussieSoldier

Being a foreigner that isnt how people I know who have been to japan described it there. They said: "Beaultifull people". People who also wnt to china said the samething about the people. No one is sadisctic here, thats a product of propoganda. --Cool Cat 09:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If it is the product of propaganda, then so is the nationalistic revisionist claim that the massacre never happened - if propaganda is not to be recognised, then the Japan veiw is not to be recognised indeed!

If it is offensive to quote what others have described, surely it is more offensive to state that a massacre never happened. AussieSoldier

Excuse me, I am not saying only you are wrong, I am saying all such comments are wrong. I never denied or acknowleged this as a massacre, and WP:NPOV dictates certain rules. I see you as an individual whom sincerely wants to see this artilce neutral. Please do not discuss me or other people, thats all I ask. --Cool Cat 09:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You will have to live with disputed tags or neutrality. I am telling you starting declaring it as a Massacre from beginning till end is not remotely neutral. --Cool Cat 02:48, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If it was a massacre by definition it should be referred to as such, from beginning to end. A Holocaust is a Holocaust is a Holocaust. No mainstream media is questioning the existence of it even there are groups denying it. Are we calling the report of the Holocaust not remotely neutral? Why are we siding with the minority here in this case and treating it as a disputed event? --Kvasir 13:25, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Koizumi

"In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations." Koizumi.

Can you please elaborate? --Cool Cat 08:48, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

do you even know who Koizumi is. --AussieSoldier 09:01, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No I dont, can you please elaborate? --Cool Cat 09:16, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ROTFLMAO! — Davenbelle 09:22, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

see: Prime Minister of Japan. — Davenbelle 10:13, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Davenbelle, it sounds like your purpose there is to annoy or insult Coolcat. Do you think you could show a little more Misplaced Pages:WikiLove? silsor 09:46, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the link; I will give it a try. I find it quite ironic that Misplaced Pages:WikiLove ends with a link to see also Misplaced Pages:Wikicrime. — Davenbelle 10:13, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

It is a bit rich that Cool Cat is trying to moderate this article when he doesn't even know who the current Prime Minister is. How can you decide what the facts are when you don't even know the basic ones? --Bathrobe 13:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Judging from this talk page, it looks like he deserves to be insulted.--220.240.177.5 18:41, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If the editor who first referred to "Koizumi" explained who he is we wouldn't have this discussion now. It is a good practice in any article to explicitly state who such a figure is when it is first introduced in an article by name. ie: "Current Prime Minister of Japan Junichiro Koizumi". And then this figure can be referred to as "Koizumi thereafter. --Kvasir 13:18, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

documentation - sadism

SIXTY years ago, Albert Cleary at last found comfort in the arms of his mates.

They took his filthy, battered and tormented body, washed it in a creek and cradled him until he died. His death ended 11 (perhaps 12) days of brutality during which the 22-year-old Australian had his hands tied high up behind his back and was made to kneel with a log tied behind his knees.

He was systematically kicked and beaten by guards; one held his head while the other repeatedly punched him in the throat.

To add to his agony, guards jumped on the log behind his knees and, every half-hour, forced him to stand, causing excruciating pain as the blood returned to his lower legs.

They beat Cleary with rifle butts, sticks and anything else that was handy.

They chained him to a tree, tortured him, humiliated him, starved him, beat him, spat on him and even urinated on him. When death was near they threw him into a ditch.

The young gunner's sin was to try to escape the hell that was Borneo near the end of World War II.

A cairn under a spreading tree on the outskirts of Ranau, an untidy and undistinguished town in the centre of Sabah, marks his martyrdom and the end of what has become known as the Sandakan Death March, Australia's Via Dolorosa.

Death March is a brutally evocative and accurate description of what happened but it reduces to one dramatic event – a campaign of murder that was the worst atrocity committed against Australians, and probably the least known.

At various times, about 2700 allied soldiers – most captured in Singapore – were held at Sandakan, on the northeast coast of what was then known as British North Borneo.

A steady toll of death and transfers meant that by January 1945, there were 1787 Australians and 641 British still in the camp.

By August all but six who escaped into the jungles were dead.

The rest were starved, condemned to death by disease and neglect, shot, bludgeoned, bayoneted and even crucified in a catalogue of purgatory that lasted three years.

They died at Sandakan, where they were brought in 1942 to labour on a military airfield, they died in a series of three marches through 260km of jungle, and they died at Ranau as the Japanese tried to complete a mission of annihilation and to silence the witnesses to their depravity.

The depth of their suffering can be judged by the fact that one of the escapees heard Chaplain Harold Wardale-Greenwood lament: "There cannot be a God, there just cannot be a God for men to suffer and be treated like this."

Seemingly forsaken by God, they were also forsaken by the top brass of the Australian Army who failed to rescue them.

General Sir Thomas Blamey tried to blame American General Douglas MacArthur for refusing the aerial support but the evidence points at Blamey's ineptitude and idleness.

Sandakan is story of extermination difficult to compile, more difficult to understand, despite the testimony of six escapees and their native helpers, the Borneo resistance, and the efforts of authors Lynette Silver (Sandakan: A Conspiracy of Silence) and Don Wall (Sandakan: The Last March) and Fevered, Laden, Starved (www.dva.gov.au/media/publicat/sandakan/index.htm).

It is a horror confused by the murder of witnesses, the destruction of records, the duplicity and lies of the Japanese who razed the camps and tried to expunge their deeds, and the relentless march of the tropical jungle.

However, we know the first Australian died at Sandakan on July 30, 1942.

The last was beheaded on August 15, 1945, the day Japan surrendered.

At Ranau, in the foothills of Mt Kinabalu, the last 15 prisoners were massacred on August 27, when the world had officially been at peace for almost a fortnight.

It was a campaign of torment, torture and murder driven by sadism, the insanity of the Japanese wartime code of bushido, and officially sanctioned by the highest authority.

After the war eight Japanese were hanged as war criminals and another 55 imprisoned, events little noted in Australia and little publicised by an army that had failed to rescue its own men.

Between 1945 and 1947, searches of the Sandakan site, Ranau, and along the jungle track found the personal relics and remains of more than 2163 POWs, most of whom were unidentified.

The remains of another 265 who are known to have been at Sandakan in early January 1945 were never found.

above post, by AussieSoldier restored by Davenbelle; User:Coolcat: Do not delete talk posted by others. — Davenbelle 10:45, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

User:Coolcat deleted this post again. Please do not delete or edit text posted by others on talk pages; restored by Davenbelle 08:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I think the deletion of the posted article was unwarranted. But I think AussieSoldier would've gotten his point across better if he/she cited the title and author for the article and/or give a link to where it was found. --Kvasir 13:11, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While I do side with the fact that sadism was a military practice in the Japanese Imperial Army, I don't think it's particularly NPOV to mention it in every instance as an added adjective to describe them. The sadistic nature is worth discussion in the "Causes" section of the article, however. In a Holocaust article, German civilian and the Nazi army are not described as "anti-semetic" and "racist" every instance. The same should go here. --Kvasir 13:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I do not hope it to be stated in 'every instance' - I hope it will be stated and recognised in the article, IN THE CONTEXT of the article, to elucidate the reasons behind the horror of the massacre, (as opposed to a 'systematic' way about it). It does NOT purport to be against Japan individulas, but a recognition of fact. --AussieSoldier 08:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[Article: Australian War memorial - referenced texts: Lynette Silver (Sandakan: A Conspiracy of Silence) and Don Wall (Sandakan: The Last March) and Fevered, Laden, Starve (www.dva.gov.au/media/publicat/sandakan/index.htm) - an Australian government site. --AussieSoldier 08:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While the article is locked

You can work on Nanjing Massacre/temp while the article stays locked. --Cool Cat 08:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

'Tom Uren, ex-prisoner and ex-Minister in the Whitlam government, made a clear distinction between "Japanese militarists" and their sadism and brutality ... A question was even asked in the Australian Parliament, and the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, Bruce Scott, assured members that ex-prisoners had told him that was accurate.'

--AussieSoldier 10:05, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please stop this, you will get yourself blocked, this isnt a threat, I am incapable of blokcing you and do not intend to request one, someone else might. Do not accuse the people of an entier nation as sadistic, also wikipedia does not allow copyrighted material and also Misplaced Pages:no original research policy. If you want to provide material regarding the discussion, you are welcome to use weblinks. --Cool Cat 10:20, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Now you listen to me Cooclat - I provided documentation to support that it is a common held veiw that Japan's soldiers and Japan is sadistic - it is a view held and it is in no way for the purpose of 'personal attacks'. The material is endorsed by the 'AUSTRALIAN WAR MEMORAIL' and relevant to the article to support my claims of sadistic mindset as motivation for the brutality involved in the Nanjing massacre. --AussieSoldier 10:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You do not recognise a veiw held by the Australian War Memorial, yet you recognise a racist veiw held by nationalistic, revisionists, 'sadistic' Japanese - you dishonour ALL those who were tortured, raped, mutilated and murdered in ALL massacres by Japan's Imperial Sadistic Soldiers! --AussieSoldier 10:44, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You dont need to ask me to listen to you. I am all ears all the time. I am not taking sides however. Material you have provided supports your case. Thats good. I wont acknowlege anything as facts or lies. I however need verifiable sources, Australian War memorial is one. I prefer a link to an australian goverment side so we can put that in the article. Japaneese dont see their action as "sadistic", I presume so thats a POV. --Cool Cat 02:38, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Australian War Memorial IS a government site! --AussieSoldier 03:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Factuality

I dont see discussion going productive. It may be best to establish what both sides agree up on. --Cool Cat 10:25, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What both sides agree with? As in the (nationalist) Japanese and (nationalist) Chinese sides? Well... there was a war. I think that's about it.

Actually I find this discussion very productive so far. The main problem, as I see it, is to write a lead that does not offend anyone. I've already written a lead above that both sides seem to agree on. -- ran (talk) 15:54, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I was refering to the issue way above as not being productive. In any disagrement there is always a common ground we can build up on. I do not want either "Nationalistic" propoganda. That falls under WP:What Misplaced Pages is not. I need scholaristicaly what japaneese say. --Cool Cat 02:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

On the causes of Nanking Massacre:

1. The Japanese replaced the Confucian doctorine of Benevolence with Loyalty, in order to suit their traditional militarism - Bushido.

2. Unlike the Westerners, whos behaviors are controlled by inner conscience (guilt culture); The Japanese orientalism sanctions its members by a sense of shame (shame culture); Unfortunately, the shame culture does not function very well, once the men leave the collectivity - their wives, parents, siblings and neighbours; That is why the Japanese can be so gentle at home, but so brutal aboard.

I asked for what both sides argee regarding the incident, I did not want an analysis of the japaneese culture. --Cool Cat 02:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If the article is limited to what BOTH sides agree upon it will be a BLANK page - the only way to navigate the page in a 'neutral' way is to state fact and also the contemporary veiws of Both sides - the veiws are of course of different sides and are therefore different. Although not agreed upon by ALL people of Both sides, it is agreed by MANY in Japan and China that atrocities took place on some level. As to culture, the two sides will never agree on that either, so we have another blank paragraph - it is only expedient to stop the focus of 'sides', and begin the focus on happenings of fact and sentiments, differing or not, opposed or not. AussieSolider

Suggestion to Coolcat

If you're going to appoint yourself mediator, at least try to learn the basics. Visit your local library and borrow a couple of books. Some good suggestions are cited in the "Further Reading" section. It would make things a lot easier.

With regards to finding reasons for the Nanjing incident, you won't find them. At least not any that meet your standards. Why? For the most part, this was not something that came from the top. Each soldier contributed on their own initiative. It's not like with Germany where you could say that you were just following orders. They did it all on their own.

While you'll probably be able to find plenty of discussion on what drove these people to behave the way they did, it will only remain discussion. You can either include the discussion with disclaimers, or you can leave no explanation. Both don't seem acceptable to you, but we can only go with one or the other.

1. Whoever you are sign your edits.
2. Dont tell me to do "Further Reading", instead please present your cases.

I will leave this article only when I see it as unbiased, even then I will ask for another review. You can feel very strong regarding your case. I am feeling very very strong on NPOVisation of this article. What Germans did was unacceptable, it was NOT ok. I am NOT saying/claiming it is ok to mass murder chineese or anything. I am saying, japaneese do not accept this as mass murder, Americans do not see Berlin Bombing as mass murder. Its about perspective. I am not concerned with the emotion behind the article, I can be understanding, but there is a limit. --Cool Cat 02:23, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am not asking for standards, I am asking the reasons either party sugests that lead to the incident. Just dont claim japaneese are traditionaly sadistic, thats far fetced and quite frankly is a product of propoganda. --Cool Cat 02:23, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I did not write that above - i sign posts. you say it is, "... far fetched ... a product of propaganda."?! i did present my caes to you as documentation, yet then below you stated you won't recognise it as fact anyway. --AussieSoldier 03:22, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You do not recognise a veiw held by the Australian War Memorial, yet you recognise a racist veiw held by nationalistic, revisionists, 'sadistic' Japanese - you dishonour ALL those who were tortured, raped, mutilated and murdered in ALL massacres by Japan's Imperial Sadistic Soldiers!

I have provided documentation CollCat, (you DELETED it), yet you state it is "... far fetched ... a product of propaganda"?! - your LACK OF NEUTRALITY is clear!

Educate yourself to the facts which are NOT in dispute by Japan in other massacres - The Nanjing Massacre is disputed by Japan, but other massacres are admitted by Japan. It is documentation of Japanese attrocites and sadism which Japan does not dispute at all - the torture, mutliation, and murder of Australian, NewZealand and British Prisoners - young boys. If this is the accepted sadistic mindset admitted by Japan in other massacres, then it is likely Japanese soldiers had the same mindset in the Nanjing massacre. AussieSoldier

It is ANZAC day today - I am highly offended that CoolCat state the war crimes against my countrymen are "... far fetched ... a product of propaganda." --AussieSoldier 03:22, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I completely sympathise with your position AussieSoldier. Before anyone would dispute even the very existence of an Australian War Memorial (which seems to be the route by the rate of things has been going on here), I would like to say, YES, it exists and I have visited it on my visit to Canberra.

Japan has, at the conclusion of WWII, already acknowledged the war crimes done against citizens of WESTERN allies and had compensated financially to survivors of the victims of those crimes. China was left out of the discussion table and there was no acknowledge nor compensation until recently. It is not far-fetched that the similar/or worse events happened in China. Yes, that was an episode in history so horrible that it seems unimaginable, and unbelievable today. There are groups out there claiming the Holocaust is a Jewish fabrication. Are we also to treat the Holocaust as a dispute? --Kvasir 03:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I THINK COOLCAT IS COOL BUT COOLCAT HAS NO KNOWLEDGE AT ALL ABOUT ASIAN HISTORY LET ALONE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN JAPAN AND CHINA. WE SHOULD APPOINT A NEW EDITOR TO THIS SECTION. COOLCAT COULD BE AN EXCELLENT EDITOR FOR THE CATS PAGE BUT DEFINITELY NOT FOR THE JAPANESE WAR ATROCITIES PAGE. BOTH AUSTRALIAN BRITISH CHINESE KOREAN HONG KONG SINGAPORE MALAYSIAN TEXTBOOKS HAVE DOCUMENTED MANY UNIMAGINABLE WAR ATROCITIES INCLUDING BAYONNETING PREGNANT MOTHERS TO FIND OUT THE GENDER OF THE CHILD DURING GAMBLING BETS, FORCING CHINESE PEASANTS TO DIG TRENCHES AND THEN BURY EACH OTHER ALIVE. The facts and photographs are too grotesque to recount and seem very fantastic to people who have no knowledge of wars or of war history. WE SORELY NEED AN EAST ASIAN STUDIES PROFESSOR AS AN EDITOR, PREFERABLY FIVE FROM CHINA, SEVERAL FROM U.S., BRITISH, KOREAN, HONG KONG, MALAYSIA, SINGAPORE, JAPAN NATIONALIST, JAPAN NON-NATIONALIST SOURCES. IN ADDITION, BEFORE WWII THE JAPANESE IMPERIAL ARMY INVENTED A SYSTEM WHERE THEY EXPORTED JAPANESE GIRLS TO WORK AS IMPERIAL BROTHELS TO SERVE THE JAPANESE ARMY, THESE GIRLS WERE REPLACED BY COMFORT WOMEN FROM KOREA AND CHINA AS THE WAR WAGED ON. THERE HAVE BEEN TONS OF BOOKS AND DOCUMENTARIES ON THIS SUBJECT BUT NOT TRANSLATED IN ENGLISH SINCE THE WEST DOES NOT CARE ABOUT ATROCITIES IN ASIA, THEY ARE MORE EURO AND AMERICANO-CENTRIC, FOCUSING ON THE HOLOCAUST, WHICH IS VERY UNDERSTABLE. HOWEVER INCREDULOUS THEY ARE TO WESTERN READERS, THESE ACCOUNTS ARE HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED FACTs, NOT POV and SHOULD NOT BE EDITED OUT. PLEASE LET US APPOINT NEW EDITORS FOR THIS VERY SENSITIVE SECTION. COOLCAT THANKS FOR YOUR HELP BUT BYE -- anon

Food for Thought

Do we all honestly think that we can untangle 60 years of unresolved dispute through a Wiki article? Accounts by witnesses of the crime didn't matter, nor did the cover up succeed. --Kvasir 22:53, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See below. --Cool Cat 02:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You are making this very difficult

I guess you wont be satisifed untill all japaneese are openly declared sadistic and all their arguments never been mentioned. You will have to deal with Template:Totallydisputed tag, other opinion is to chill. --Cool Cat 02:13, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please do not ask me to acknowlege Japaneese as sadisic or any material you provided as facts. I cannot due to my seat. I wont take sides. I just know what you provide here and in the article. I dont need lenghty websites or posts. This is a dispute, right? Can we please treat it LIKE a dispute? --Cool Cat 02:32, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Who are you refering to in "You"? I was referred to this heading in your reply, so I assume you meant me. For your information I have just entered this discussion and I don't know why you are treating everyone like they are your enemy and taking every opportunity to vent at people. --Kvasir 02:59, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

CoolCat - you stated above, "please do not ask me to acknowledge ... any materail you proivided as facts." - If you WILL NOT recognise documentaion, then the article will never be completed! You have some pre-defined veiws on the article and you WILL NOT recognise anything else, whether documented or not - you are not 'neutral'! --AussieSoldier 03:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry I cant mediate this, AussieSoldier I wont even bother answering you. I am only a Japaneese nationalist who wants to murder as many chineese as I can. I am also a Turkish nationalist and all your armenians are belong to us. Sarcasm aside, Davenbelle, since you know every wikipedia policy and know NPOV inside out, here, mediate this. Ill se your work. Take this as a challenge, I dare you. --Cool Cat 14:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're too predictable... quit this game please. Do you realise that you're playing with Wikipedias integrity just by doing the same thing you've been doing on the Armenian genocide entry, so that people stop suspecting you? The next time, read psychology books, to play a better "role." Fadix 16:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Back to the topic

This talk page is here for the purpose of writing this article. If anyone wants to start a debate on various aspects of Japanese culture, there are many Chinese and Korean political forums I can refer you to.

I have already written an alternate intro above. CoolCat: why do you not agree with it? Sorry if you've went over this before -- let's start afresh. -- ran (talk) 02:52, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Ran - It is highly pertinent to the writing of the article to discuss culture - other massacres by Japan soldiers have been documented, and it is established that a sadistic element in culture is reason for such pleasure in horror - accounts of laughter as soldiers were tortured for example.

The culture of Japan is pertinent to elucidate the reason for the horror in the Nanjing massacre.

The culture of Germany is also pertinent in the Holocaust discussion - on two levels - how a dictator came to power, and how ordinary people could commit such genocide - 'systematic' has come up a lot. --AussieSoldier 03:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let's get the intro done first. We can move on to that later. -- ran (talk) 03:44, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Section Levels

see: Misplaced Pages:How to edit a page#Sections, paragraphs, lists and lines; "Start with a second-level heading (==); do not use first-level headings (=)."

User:Coolcat has repeatedly adjusted the section levels of this talk page (and others) so that sections posted by him are first level headings which makes the posts of other users (who use the default second-level) subordinate to his "Lets get started" 'mediation' impertinence. This refactoring of talk pages is against policy and should be especially unwelcome here as I see no indication from other participants on this talk page that he has been accepted as any sort of mediator. I, for one, do not accept that he has any right to dictate the format of the discussion here. In his edit he asserts that he has done this for a reason, but does not give his reason. If he has a reason other than manipulation of the hierarchy of posts in the table of contents of this page in order to imply a structure of his choosing and an authority he merely presumes, he is welcome to post it. — Davenbelle 08:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I certainly think there is an agenda here. "Who died and made him boss?" as the proverbial expression goes. He said he appointed himself as the mediator yet his POV sides with the minority that denies the existence of the event. If this is not dictatorship I don't know what is. --Kvasir 13:44, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

More Images

see: http://www.princeton.edu/~nanking/html/nanking_gallery.html

The above site has 14 public domain images available, two of which are currently used in the article. They are all highly relevant and I have uploaded these two for inclusion once the page is unprotected. — Davenbelle 10:00, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

Is there any "official" caption to these images? We only know that they are images from Nanking 1937 because it's stated that they appeared in LIFE magazine. --Kvasir 13:06, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

see also .The photograph is Shanghai.Photo used with inaccuracy caption.--Snow steed 14:38, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The caption given on the 'BabyOnTracks' image from the Princeton site is "One of the earlier images of the war to come out from China, this photo appeared in LIFE magazine" with "Nanking 1937" as part of the page background. The second photo's caption is "A self-organized burial team after the massacre" with the same "Nanking 1937" in the background. These captions are given on the image description pages. I'm inclined to view the Princeton site as having more credibility than http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~sus/child.htm which appears to be a personal web page. I will seek further info re these images. — Davenbelle 18:11, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

The 'BabyOnTracks' image also appears here: jpg; page; main — Davenbelle 08:08, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. You're right, the caption is there, just not at the usual obvious place... It would be even better if there are images available directly from an original source. --Kvasir 18:27, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed the 'BabyOnTracks' image from the main page on the basis that it actually occurred on August 28, 1937 when the Japanese bombed the Shanghai South Railway Station. However, other photos apparently do exist and various groups and persons have raised accusations that the whole event was staged. An article on that matter that includes the other photos, with a view of the photo being false, is here.

I am uncertain as to whether or not the photo itself is really valid, but I think it still has a place (albeit in an article covering the fall of Shanghai in the war) due to its immense historical value. -- Xanadu 02:15, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Thoughts on restoring this image (removed here)

and these:

— Davenbelle 04:59, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Let's make some progress, shall we?

How about:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes, in Japan, as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese Army in and around Nanjing, China after the city's fall to Japanese troops on 13 December 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (later to become a part of World War II). The atrocities include looting, rape, and the killing of civilians and prisoners of war. The event and the actual extent of the misconduct are highly controversial, remaining a point of diplomatic dispute between China and Japan.

In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. In Japan, consensus among the public about the event is divided, with some sentiment, especially among comservatives, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions are considered by in China as historical revisionism, and as such they continue to stir anger and resentment.

First of all - I think that the word 'atrocity' has to be included in that first paragraph. We may debate the actual death toll or the source of pictures - and yes, the Chinese government isn't the most trustworthy source of information - but there's been plenty of independent testimony to confirm that atrocities did, in fact, occur.

Secondly - the death toll figures can be talked about in detail in the section that we've set up for it. Since there is no real consensus on the figures, I don't see us as putting them into the introductory paragraphs.

While I disagree with CoolCat that Ran's original second paragraph was accusatory, I agree with that there's a tone of generalization when talking about the Chinese and Japanese. Does anyone have any way to beef up the language with facts? Otherwise, I recommend we finish editing soon - and move onto teh rest of the article. A good way of doing that would be to debate CoolCat rationally, which I believe far too many of us are failing to do. --Rroser167 16:38, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat, read up on the Nanking Debate in Japan, mmkay? You'll find that there is disagreement but that it is between largely scholars (who accept the massacre did occur) and right-wing nationalists who don't. Claiming that the 'nanking massacre is not accepted as a massacre by the Japanese' is wrong and belies, as several other things, your total ignorance on the issue. I add my voice to several others who have asked you to step aside and appoint another mediator. And no, i'm not Chinese (or Japanese or even Asian). --128.100.29.55 17:06, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)Bobbay

Roser, Coolcat has already demonstrated that he is refusing to be rational. What else would you call it when everyone (not just the Chinese or Japanese) asks you to step aside because of your ignorance on the issue and you adamantly refuse saying you have a right to be here...etc --128.100.29.55 17:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)Bobbay

Listen - CoolCat is flat out wrong in a bunch of things - not wanting to use the term "massacre" sticks in my head as one of the stranger arguments he makes, but the fact of the matter is that this article, without opposition from someone like him, was turning into an emotion-driven POV POS.

But now, the time has come to finish this thing, and yes, I think he's being obstructionist. Let's get it done correctly. China-Japan relations are very much a current event, and there's no doubt that this page is probably getting more traffic than normal. Let's make a good page that describes what happened to the best of our factual knowledge without becoming a bloodthirsty hate article.

Cool-Cat, if you have any opposition to the two paragraphs I've presented above, please write it out now. I'll discuss it with you here, and in a rational tone, and if there is still disagreement, we'll go to the WikiGods for arbitration. --Rroser167 17:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rroser - the discussion turned emotive after Colcat's continued blocking of words such as 'atrocities' - and a perplexing interpretation of NPOV which would have seen the article become a blank page so as not to 'accuse' the other side, nor to 'alarm anyone's beleifs' whatever those belefs may have been. --AussieSoldier 12:21, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Headline text

Is there a way to block CoolCat from this? He's clearly a vandal.

Coolcat,

We are asking you in a very polite way: please let someone else be mediator.

I agree. Both CoolCat and AussieSoldier have swamped this page with barely coherent meta-discussion. I don't think either is actually capable of contributing positively to a NPOV article about Japanese war atrocities anyway: coolcat has demonstrated total ignorance of the subject matter and AussieSoldier a clear anti-Japanese bias.--Zaxios 05:06, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have no "anti-Japanese bias". I have referred to a 'sadistic' culture IN THE CONTEXT of the article, to elucidate the reasons behind the horror of the massacre, (as opposed to a 'systematic' way about it). It does NOT purport to be against Japan individulas, but a recognition of fact. --AussieSoldier 12:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, AussieSoldier, but I have to agree with Zaxios that you seem to have a bias. I know that you're going to argue that everything you've said is fact, and is well documented, but the point of the page is to make an encyclopedia article about the Nanjing Massacre, not to provide a list for as many demonizing facts about the Japanese as possible.

I'll quote the NPOV page here: "The only other important consideration is that while a fact is not POV in and of itself, adding facts, no matter how well cited, from only one side of a debate is a POV problem. So work for balance. " --Rroser167 13:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I am happy to work for a balance - I will be 'neutral'. I was always happy for the revisionist side to be presented as justly as it can be, just not at the expense and white-wash of the other side - a balance is exactly what I have been after. --AussieSoldier 13:55, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rroser - I am confident by the path you have taken that the article will be balanced. --AussieSoldier 13:55, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How can we move forward?

So, I'd like for us to agree on the intro and move on to the rest of the article. Does anyone have a problem with this:

The Nanjing Massacre (Chinese: 南京大屠杀, pinyin: Nánjīng Dàtúshā; Japanese: 南京大虐殺, Nankin Dai Gyaku-satsu), also known as the Rape of Nanking and sometimes, in Japan, as the Nanjing Incident (南京事件, Nankin Jiken), refers to atrocities committed by the Imperial Japanese Army in and around Nanjing, China after the city's fall to Japanese troops on 13 December 1937 in the Battle of Nanjing during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) (later to become a part of World War II). The atrocities include looting, rape, and the killing of civilians and prisoners of war. The event and the actual extent of the misconduct are highly controversial, remaining a point of diplomatic dispute between China and Japan.

In China, the event is a major focal point of Chinese nationalism. In Japan, consensus among the public about the event is divided, with some sentiment, especially among conservatives, that the Nanjing Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Such opinions are often considered to be in China as historical revisionism, and as such they continue to stir anger and resentment.

And I'll requote what I wrote about it earlier:

First of all - I think that the word 'atrocity' has to be included in that first paragraph. We may debate the actual death toll or the source of pictures - and yes, the Chinese government isn't the most trustworthy source of information - but there's been plenty of independent testimony to confirm that atrocities did, in fact, occur.

Secondly - the death toll figures can be talked about in detail in the section that we've set up for it. Since there is no real consensus on the figures, I don't see us as putting them into the introductory paragraphs.

I know that eveyrone blames CoolCat, but he hasn't posted in a few days. If no one else has a problem, can we agree on this and go to the rest of the article?--Rroser167 13:33, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The paragraphs look good to me. --Kvasir 13:43, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looks fine. -- ran (talk) 13:45, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, people. I should have already made it clear that the paragraphs are merely an edit of Ran's fine work.--Rroser167 13:59, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The paragrpah is prefect - i do contend the word 'conservative' - 'nationalisitc' is better placed - it is the same description used for China in the paragraph, and such veiw is more than common 'conservative' politics - I am confident that Japanese will not have a problem to be desribed as nationalistic as they are proud and patriotic. --AussieSoldier 14:07, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

AussieSoldier - excellent point - it seems wrong to use "nationalist" for the Chinese and "conservative" for the Japanese. However, it also seems to me that in the interests of good writing style, we should avoid using the word nationalist twice in two sentences so close together. Can anyone come up with a better way to describe the two groups? It also seems to me that this isn't a major sticking point - neither term could be considered derogatory to anyone involved in any side of the current debate.

Now, once we finish this up, should we just post it into the temp page, or should we see about getting the main page unlocked so that we can at least have the edited introduction available at the time. As I've mentioned before, Chinese/Japanese relations are a hot topic at this point, and the sooner we make visible progress, the better. --Rroser167 16:47, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The above are a better opening. My only concerns are that the view of denial being historical revisionism is not unique to China and that 'misconduct' is a pretty lightweight word. 'Widely viewed' and 'warcrimes' would be more appropriate. Specifically mentioning China's view of historical revisionism (which should be linked to Historical revisionism (political)) is appropriate.

Rather than work on a temp page, I feel that the article should be unprotected and defended against unilateral rewrites. — Davenbelle 17:53, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Davenbelle. You're right about misconduct. I'll insert "warcrimes" for one of the "atrocities" in the paragraph, and substitute "atrocities" for the "misconduct". I don't know if I want to use "widespread" where you were suggesting it, however. I wouldn't necessarily call a Japanese person a revisionist for believing that the Nanjing death toll has been exaggerated by the Chinese government. Could you suggest a good rewrite here?

I did not mean to imply that all Japanese critics of China's view are revisionists; there's a huge difference between outright denial and charges of fabrication, and debate over specific numbers.

"Such opinions are often considered to be historical revisionism, and as such they continue to stir anger and resentment, especially in China." ???

Be bold Rroser167; I suggest you update the page with an opening based on the talk in this section. — Davenbelle 17:55, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Also, I agree about making these changes live rather than putting them on the temp pages; I just don't know how we get around the article lock. Who do we appeal to? --Rroser167 20:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are some things problematic with this rewrite. For example, can you in good grammar say "consensus ... is divided". Consensus means "something people agree about", so "divided consensus" makes no sense. Ran's version sounds, at least to me, to make better sense ("opinions...are divided"). The sentence "The event and the actual extent of the misconduct are highly controversial" is also problematic - it implicitly implies that the event is fabricated, when almost everyone nowadays agrees to the contrary. "Right-wing" is also more descriptive and accurate than the feeble word to sanitize -"conservatives". All in all, I prefer Ran's earlier version. Mandel 04:40, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Uh, yes, "divided consensus" doesn't really work. The thing about the "event and the actual extent of the misconduct (now 'atrocities') are highly controversial" is tougher - I think we could eliminate "event", but the extent (ie, death toll) appears to be very much in dispute, and I believe that there certainly is controversy over it, especially between Japan and China.

As for the right-wing vs. conservative, others may have a different view, but I think that using "right wing" suggests that only the most extreme in Japan believe that the massacre has been exagerrated, whereas it seems to me that this belief actually extends to Japanese in the center-right, and because of this "conservative" is more appropriate. However, I have no factual basis for saying this - can anyone provide specific analysis of Japanese beliefs on the matter with respect to their political spectrum? --Rroser167 12:52, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mandel and Rroser - I agree the word 'event' is problematic and has to be taken out. Rroser - I agree, for a balance, the word 'extent' is necessary -the sentence should just read, "The 'extent' of the 'atrocities' is debated". --AussieSoldier 07:12, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

photos

I think the top photograph is excessive in that place, and belongs lower. -SV|t 02:37, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is an atrocity wether you like it or not. Its so interesting how you all try to whitewash this atrocity. Is it called "mis-conduct" when you go into a nation and rape and pillage the capital city and systematically murder countless thousands of people?

as to the above, whoever you are please sign posts. The use of the word 'misconduct' has been addressed - it will be replaced with 'war crimes' - please see above. If you had been with us in the above discussion, then you will reaslise it is the intention to write an article which presents both the revisionist side and the other side - no side will be presented at the expense of the other - the use of the words 'atrocities' and 'war crimes' was vehemently opposed by some here and one individual in particular is not with us anymore - not one person STILL HERE is "try to whitewash" what happened. The article will be written in a balanced fashion - please do not upset the process. --AussieSoldier 08:30, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(I almost suspect its my 'archenemy' CoolCat back to play the other side as the anonymous). --AussieSoldier 08:34, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The first photo seems highly appropriate as the first photo, given that the common name for this incident is The Rape of Nanking (which redirects here; and, of course, Iris Chang's book). — Davenbelle 17:39, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

I posted this above, but I've moved it here because it has been ignored until now (14 May). I hope to get an answer. If not, I will have no choice but to put a note below the photo that accusations have been made that it was staged. My original note:

Sorry, but accusations have been made that the Baby on Tracks photo was staged. See this web site:

http://www.thenausea.com/elements/japan/child.html

True, Fujioka Nobukatsu may be what is known as a 'revisionist' or 'denier', but he makes a prima facie case that the photo is staged. It's intellectually dishonest to present photos as truthful when there are doubts as to their authenticity, whatever version of the Nanjing Massacre you believe in. Iris Chang's book has been heavily criticised because its inaccuracies, which gave 'deniers' like Fujioka a field day.

Bathrobe 05:24, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I read the link and googled this guy and don't view his opinion as particularly credible. He's got an obvious agenda. Of some concern was the repeat of the view that the photo is from Shanghai (See User:Snow_steed, above). If this is the case, the entire photo is inappropriate here. If you're content to keep the photo, how about a mention of the dispute somewhere else — it is a minority view. Best, — Davenbelle 06:08, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the guy's views are distasteful, but I suggest that:

(1) he does present some actual evidence for his views (although how solid this may be is hard to judge) and

(2) he is not the only one with an agenda. The Chinese have an agenda in exaggerating the Massacre. Granted that the Chinese were the victims of this brutality, but there is no need to suspend your critical judgement as to their claims.

While you are at it, I would check out some of the guy's other analyses of faked photographs. Not all of them are convincing, but there does appear to have been some kind of tampering going on, sufficient to throw doubt on some photos.

I'm not sure if I agree with your 'minority view' comment. What is the 'majority view'? This is an issue on which no consensus has been reached. Iris Chang's book was eventually not published in a Japanese edition because even Japanese scholars who were totally in agreement that Nanjing was an unspeakable atrocity felt that the book contained too many errors to be published as it was. These errors, I believe, included the use of staged or fake photos.

The photo is certainly a graphic start to the article and presents a dramatic message. I suggest that since it is such a well-known photo that epitomises the massacre, this is precisely where a note on the dispute should be put. Where would you suggest putting it?

Bathrobe 13:55, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Is there any evidence of staging of the other photographs on this page? I'd hate to start this page with this photo with a caption under it stating that it may have been faked. --Rroser167 16:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Try this site for more claims of tampering: http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/fujioka/

The fourth photo in the Misplaced Pages article has the caption: 'Heaps of dead bodies wait for disposal on the wharves of Hsiakwan, the port suburb north of Nanjing.' There is no great problem with this as it stands (although the location is questioned). Fujioka has a note on this at http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/fujioka/4.html He claims that "(1) The corpses were not those of civilian residents of Nanking, but of Chinese soldiers who died in battle..., (2) these photographs are not from the land battle fought at Xinhezhen. Since some of the corpses are naked, they either died in combat on the Yangtze, or drowned, (3) The dead soldiers did not expire where the photograph was taken. Since the corpses all face in the same general direction, it is obvious that they had drifted, carried by the current of the river...Whatever the case, these photographs, which were for many years accepted as irrefutable evidence of a massacre in Nanking, cannot, under any circumstances, be connected with the massacre of civilian residents of that city."

The case made for some of the photos is extremely weak. In particular, the final one at has this paragraph:

"We will not reproduce Photograph D in this book, due to its gruesome nature. It shows a woman with her trousers pulled down, and her upper garments pulled up over her head. The lower half of her body has been stripped naked, and an object resembling a stick is protruding from her genitals. There is no precedent for such macabre deeds as this in Japan, but they were often perpetrated by the Chinese."

This is the second photo in the Wikipidea article. The problem with the 'proof' is that it is openly contemptuous of the Chinese -- racist, in fact -- without offering any kind of evidence whatsoever that it wasn't 'our boys' who did it.

I am not qualified to judge whether the proof presented by Fujioka, who is one of the infamous 'revisionists', is convincing or not. However, he does present what looks like independent evidence that some of the Nanjing photos were tampered with at some time (e.g., the row of heads photo).

The use of faked or unrelated photos to stir up nationalistic or ethnic sentiment is not uncommon, especially in a war-time context. I might point out (perhaps gratuitously) the recent manipulation occurred at the time of the anti-Chinese riots in Indonesia, when unrelated photos were posted at Chinese websites and stirred up considerable resentment amongst the Chinese. See http://www.ishipress.com/indofake.htm Unfortunately, these kinds of photo do harm because people then tend to discount the real atrocities that took place.

The fact that atrocities took place on a large scale is not in dispute. The problem is how factual the article is. No matter how strongly people feel about the massacre, I don't believe it's in Misplaced Pages's interest to use material that has question marks hanging over it.

Bathrobe 23:51, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Absolute bull****, why don't you go and use 'facts' from neo-Nazi sites on the Holocaust article huh? Is it because you are afraid of pissing off the Jews? Damn China-haters/Japanophiles.

protection

So - does anyone know who we write to ask for the page to be unprotected? --Rroser167 16:41, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I found you can submit unprotected requirment to Caiqian 17:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I left a request to unprotect the page at User talk:Silsor (who protected the page). I should have time to comment here further tonight... — Davenbelle 17:21, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

It's done; Thanks Silsor. — Davenbelle 17:34, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Davenbelle, thank you Silsor. Thank you AussieSoldier for your support. I'm updating the intro. I won't be able to touch the rest of the article until this weekend. If anyone wishes to begin, please go right ahead. --Rroser167 18:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Memorial Hall for Compatriot Victims of the Japanese Military's Nanjing Massacre

This building was mentioned in the article. Could someone add where this building is located? (at least the country, maybe even the city...) —Tokek 09:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's in Nanjing. (If this is the hall where all the photos of the massacre, etc. are on display, then it's in the suburbs of Nanjing).

Bathrobe 13:57, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Name change: Nanking Massacre

I am currently reading Iris Chang's The Rape of Nanking, and I noticed that she points out the fact that Nanjing was, at the time, known as Nanking. Even many Mandarin speakers referred to it as such, and it was universally known as such in the West. For this reason, I believe "Nanking Massacre" would be a superior title. Even though the universal spelling is Nanjing these days, a historic event should use the names of the day. (We don't call the Battle of Stalingrad "the Battle of Volgograd", for example.) - Gavin 05/27/2005

You should have consulted the community on such a change, at the very least inform them before you make the switch. Mandel 09:19, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

Iris Chang

Hello, I have been working on Iris Chang discussion. Ran proposed me to join the discussion here. I am an Irish Japanese electrical engineer living in the United States. As the first contribution to this article, I point it out that the third picture is not a part of Nanking Massacre. Carefully watch the picture, and you will find out those bodies are soldiers of Chinese Nationalist Government Army. One thing I'm disgusted with Nanking Massacre discussions(I'm not talking about this particular discussion) because people who support the incident ignores any proofs they do not favor. Princeton University is one of the leading university in the U.S., but they use pictures widely known as fabricated. (a baby sitting on the railroad is from Shanghai and trimmed not to allow us to see the parents were next to the baby; this fabrication is very malicious crime) I believe this is because they are "anti-Japan" groups and not interested in the truth. I and Ran are discussing about Chang was supported by "anti-Japan" groups or "plain" groups, by the way.--Flowerofchivalry 06:28, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's because you are a f*cking Jap Nazi. Are you saying that victims of the Nanjing Massacre are liars because they are Chinese and too old? There are lots of skinheads who have 'proofs' that the Holocaust never happened. Why don't you go and call the Jews anti-German for searching evidence about the Holocaust? If anyone who tries to find truth about Nanjing Massacre is anti-Japanese, then there's 2 billion of us, and you are outnumbered.