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I, personally, do not like the new category and rather have it deleted. The reason that it is not helpful for the Encyclopedia and potentially can be quite divisive. We already have Babel userboxes. People who has native level of Russian language are probably belong to Russian culture in some way. The way you have added the category seems to put people with vaguely "pro-Russian" point of view. It makes very easy to canvass pro-Russian users into any editorial conflict. I think it is wrong, editors should act as individuals rather than large discipline parties. That is why we do not have categories like ] or ] or ]. There is T1 criteria in ], I think it should be applied to categories as well. ] 05:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I, personally, do not like the new category and rather have it deleted. The reason that it is not helpful for the Encyclopedia and potentially can be quite divisive. We already have Babel userboxes. People who has native level of Russian language are probably belong to Russian culture in some way. The way you have added the category seems to put people with vaguely "pro-Russian" point of view. It makes very easy to canvass pro-Russian users into any editorial conflict. I think it is wrong, editors should act as individuals rather than large discipline parties. That is why we do not have categories like ] or ] or ]. There is T1 criteria in ], I think it should be applied to categories as well. ] 05:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
::Not having such categories is certainly not of any help against canvassing. This rationale doesn't go. ] 10:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
:Umm… can we say "promise not to add ''any'' category to users' pages"? Even if the category was nice and proper you cannot simply go and tag other users' pages, in my opinion it's uncivil ∴ ] 05:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
:Umm… can we say "promise not to add ''any'' category to users' pages"? Even if the category was nice and proper you cannot simply go and tag other users' pages, in my opinion it's uncivil ∴ ] 05:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
::I agree. Userpage-labelling should be left to the users in question, not to any third party. ] 10:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Revision as of 10:01, 8 August 2007
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I like your version of the English people picture. Just one thing, do you think we could have at least one woman? Someone from an ethnic minority would be a good idea as well. What do you think? Alun10:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
please review Talk:Jew to understand the coordination and collaboration that took place in choosing the image for the temple (the section "Collage image", "Ashkenazi-centric portrait collage", "Smaller collage" and later "Come one now! How are those pictures fair?" which was a reaction to your edits). This is not to say we are not open to other idea for collage but please talk about on the talk page first. While wikipedia is not an bureaucracy it is also not an anarchy but works by its own rules which you much understand in order to be a valued contributor. I hope that you continue to edit wikipedia, but please "play nice" and understand that you are not the only person trying to make wikipedia the best encyclopedia it can be. Jon51320:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Wrong address
I did not remove the image. As you can see, I am not alone rejecting it. I would suggest you listen to what people say and try to improve. Using elbows won't work. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens11:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
3RR
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Thank you. ←Humus sapiens11:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
You were warned about 3RR but you chose to violate it. Unless you self-revert quickly, you are subject to be reported and blocked. If you continue misbehaving, every subsequent block will become longer and eventually you will be banned. ←Humus sapiens11:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Hours later, and you still did not revert. OK, I will let it go this first time, because you are a new user, and in the spirit of good faith. Nobody is against a good photo collage, but a few problems with yours are:
You forgot to include women. At least Golda Meir and Ayn Rand should be there.
You've just made a 4th revert on the Ashkenazi Jews page. That violates the Misplaced Pages 3Rs rule. --Metzenberg20:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
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Hi! Wanted to alert you that Misplaced Pages has a Three Revert Rule which prohibits editors from reverting an article more than 3 times in a 24-hour period. The purpose of the rule is to prevent an edit war between editors with different views from disrupting the encyclopedia. Violating the rule can result in being blocked. I don't feel inclined to enforce the rule as a first step, so I'm not going to check exactly how many reverts you made when, but please discuss differences with other editors rather than using back-and-forth reverting, and please do be aware of the rule and be sure to observe it in the future. If necessaary you can ask an administrator to help you, including protecting the page to prevent further problems. Thanks! Best, --Shirahadasha15:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I have protected the page to stop an edit war from disrupting this page. Please discuss this matter on the article's talk page. I would suggest consulting the association of members' advocates or the mediation cabal if you find yourself having difficulty discussing this matter by yourself. Best, --Shirahadasha17:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Got your note. The page is currently protected for the time being, so no-one can edit it for now. Please explain on Talk:Ashkenazi Jews why you think the set of pictures you are proposing is a better choice. Best, --Shirahadasha18:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, please be sure to use the signature button on the edit tools or to add four tildes (~~~~) after your message. This "signs" your name and creates a link to your user page. Best, --Shirahadasha18:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks like you were outvoted on this one - some of the other editors who weighed in are regular editors on the page and they would probably have visited it anyway. No worries -- these things happen. Suggest finding something else to help out with or another article of interest for the time being. Best, --Shirahadasha14:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
A final thought. I wanted to thank you for coming up with the idea of adding a collage of pictures as a way to help spruce up the article. It's a really good touch. It adds a lot to the way the article looks. Even if others wanted to change some of the individual pictures, having a collage was your idea and you've made a lasting improvement. Best, --Shirahadasha01:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Thankyou, you can take of the protection now. Thanks for stoping the Edit-War there.M.V.E.i. 21:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
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Take a look. I tried to be politicaaly correct. Hope it's well done.
Those Estonians who we argue with are eated with self-hate. They know that their grandfathers from the forest brothers and the ss were creeps, and the fact that those creeps lost makes them even more self-hated. They will say enything to reduce their shame somehow. M.V.E.i. 21:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
See thats funny, they started an edit war, lost it, so now the're runing and complaining to anyone they could, they proved themselves to be true balts! Thats the baltic way, cheat, lie, and when they loose they run to Europe and NATO to complain they are being smashed. Those Balts here are nothing but trolls (see: Misplaced Pages:What is a troll). M.V.E.i. 19:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but what war did we start and what did we lost? The arguments we have very clearly won, as you have yet to answer adequately answer any of the questions (something that requires you to actually read those sources you give - it is now blindingly obvious that you haven't read them (that was made clear by your refutal of source you gave yourself) and, in fact, have no knowledge of history other then neo-Stalinist/neo-Nazi propaganda - all your "knowledge" comes from Google). You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view.
Your tactics so far have been dropping sources without reading them - and when asked a question, you ignore the question or try to lead the conversation to another topic - at best claiming that "sources" have the answers, even when they rather obviously don't. DLX19:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
1) It's not polite to burge into other peoples conversations. 2) I have answered to all your questions and gave reliable links, but you everytime i proved your clain to be wrong moved from version to version. Actually, this one "You have proven yourself to be incredibly biased and racist, believing only what fits your world-view" is presicely about you. By the way, i'm anti-Stalinist (The communists i support are Rikov and others like him). My knowledge comes from real historicle books, i gave you names. I used facts agreed by the whole world, exept the Baltic states, whose history books are widely recognized as Fiction. All your "knowledge" comes from Baltic-propoganda which's only cause is to reduce the Baltic shame. M.V.E.i. 19:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
i live in Israel since the age of five so hhh unfortunatly i dont. Now i learn to write Russian and it goes quite well but nevertheless i still write with many mistakes and i write only with Capital letters. But i know how to read and talk Russian. M.V.E.i. 20:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
If i will try to write an article for the Russian Misplaced Pages it will have to much spelling mistakes. M.V.E.i. 20:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Little Tragedies? Their amazing. You must hear them, try downloading in eMule. When i heard them i said, one of the best Progressive-Rock bands in the world and almost unknown? Not fair. What they do is realy amazing. M.V.E.i. 20:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you like the translation. May I ask to say your word here. Talk:Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn "Political & other reaction to separate article" ))) Beatle Fab Four16:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
DLX-Dumm Lonely Xerox. Hih, now i know what it means. Now lets start the coumtdown, it's a question of minutes for him to run and complain to the EU that i called him like that, because, you know, he's so gentil. M.V.E.i. 16:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is not forum or soapbox (WP:NOT), not is it a battleground (WP:NOT#Misplaced Pages is not a battleground). Users are required to be civil and use civil language - "people must act with civility toward one another" (WP:CIV). Also, please stop edits to talk archive pages, they are called "Archives" for a reason.
You have been neither civil or reasonable - and you haven't used your edit rights for bettering Misplaced Pages. Instead you are pushing your very highly POV views (which differ significantly from any source in the world, including Soviet and Russian sources. Next time, please try to give some sources to outrageous claims).
What am I talking about? These: , , , , , , - I will not go to older edits then few days, though.
Now, as for user Beatles FF, I did not ask for his block - although, I have started to suspect that it was the best solution. His highly insulting edit summaries, promotion of racial hatred, edit warring without giving any reasons, refusing to discuss things without YELLING, bold and civilly ("Well, I get bored of your annoying comments.", "I presume you are a denier of the Holocost"), editing/deleting others and his own comments, refusing to accept even mildest criticism and taking it as a personal attack... I seriously doubt that he would have become a good editor and contributor to Misplaced Pages in the near future.
As for you, I do hope that you can find it in your heart to become civil, calm and reliable editor, who can meaningfully contribute to Misplaced Pages, always following NPOV guidelines, giving sources to your edits in articles - or sources to your claims in talk pages. DLX16:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
DLX, i have been there, i took part in the arguments so don't try to fool me. Your comments were really ennoying because they were full of lies you wrote to make you feel better about your nationality. He already became a good editor, he deleted lies you wrote. He fought against vandalism, because you writing lies in articles is vandalism. My sources are the most real sorces in the world, my family in which everybody fought at The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945, and those who were under Nazi occupation and saw it all. M.V.E.i. 16:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please at least try to be calm and reasonable, I don't think it is too much to ask. Now, can you give some examples of my "lies" in both talk pages and in article, because as far as I know, I haven't said or inserted anything unsourced. Also, your family is not an acceptable source for Misplaced Pages, we really rather have verifiable sources here. And another thing - please give an example of few "good edits" done by Beatles Fab Four. DLX16:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
If you want good edits then check out all the times that Fab Four deleted your lies from articles. Examples of youre lies? easy:
Claiming Estonian SS was "didnt have a politcle wing" (Yeah, right, so they insisted to have the SS initials in their name because they liked the combination of the letters), claiming that the Estonian SS didnt kill any Jews (Thought the Estonians started the Holocaust in Estonia even before the Germans arrived their), and there was many other lies you wrote their, i just gave the to examples that came to my mind. M.V.E.i. 16:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Please, let us stay on one talk page, easier for us both.
Now, here is the edit list for user Beatles Fab Four: . Please go though that and give examples where he "deleted my lies".
I am not sure what you mean by "didnt have a politcle wing", as I am not familiar with the word "politcle". But, being WWII expert that you are, you must know that no Estonian was a member of Nazi party nor did any Estonian belong to SS-proper, only Waffen-SS. Like I quoted in the talk page:
The Nuremberg Trials, in declaring the Waffen SS a criminal organisation, explicitly excluded conscripts in the following terms:
Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organisation with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter or who were personally implicated as members of the organisation in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes.
In April 13, 1950, a message from the U.S. High Commission in Germany (HICOG), signed by John McCloy to the Secretary of State, clarified the US position on the "Baltic Legions": they were not to be seen as "movements", "volunteer", or "SS". In short, they were not given the training, indoctrination, and induction normally given to SS members. Subsequently the US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:
The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.
It is simply ridiculous to think, that U.S. High Commission in Germany or Nurenberg Trials would have declared anything like that if there would have been even minor suspicion that the Baltic Waffen SS Units would have been involved in holocaust.
As for your repeated claim, that "the Estonians started the Holocaust in Estonia even before the Germans arrived", that is very clearly just a lie. See History of the Jews in Estonia - let me quote some relevant passages to you from there:
Approximately 200 Jews fought in combat in the Estonian War of Independence (1918-1920) for the creation of the Republic of Estonia. 70 of these men were volunteers. The creation of the Republic of Estonia in 1918 marked the beginning of a new era in the life of the Jews.
From the very first days of her existence as a state, Estonia showed her tolerance towards all ethnic and religious minorities. This set the stage for energetic growth in the political and cultural activities of Jewish society.
The cultural autonomy of minority peoples is an exceptional phenomenon in European cultural history. Therefore Jewish cultural autonomy was of great interest to global Jewish community. The Jewish National Endowment Keren Kajamet presented the Estonian government with a certificate of gratitude for this achievement.
The peaceful and active life of the small Jewish community in Estonia came to an abrupt halt in 1940 with the Soviet occupation of Estonia. Cultural autonomy in addition to all of its institutions was liquidated in July 1940. In July and August of the same year all organisations, associations, societies and corporations were closed. A large group of Jews (about 400) were deported into prison camps in Russia by the Soviet authorities on June 14, 1941.
Round-ups and killings of Jews began immediately following the arrival of the first German troops in Estonia in the summer of 1941, who were closely followed by the extermination squad Einsatzkommando (Sonderkommando) 1A, part of Einsatzgruppe A. Arrests and executions continued as the Germans advanced through Estonia. About 75% of Estonia's Jewish community, aware of the fate that otherwise awaited them, had managed to escape to the Soviet Union; virtually all the remainder (between 950 and 1000 men, women and children) were killed before the end of 1941. Fewer than a dozen Estonian Jews are known to have survived the war in Estonia.
From 1944 until 1988 the Estonian Jewish community, as elsewhere in the territories controlled by the Soviet Union, had no organisations, associations nor even clubs. The Soviet authorities were intolerant towards Zionism and all Jewry was generally equalled with Zionism.
So... let us see. Cultural independence, tolerance towards all ethnic and religious minorities, certificate of gratitude. Then, Soviets occupied Estonia and immediately sent 400 (or 500, number varies in different sources) Jews to prison camps. Very few of them were seen alive ever again.
75% of the rest fled to Soviet Union, as it was only way to go (actually, some escaped to Sweden, too - but I cannot find quickly a source for that. Nor is it relevant just now.). Germans came - and murdered the remaining Jews, no surprises there.
Soviets came back again. No cultural independence, no tolerance towards all ethnic and religious minorities, no organisations, associations nor even clubs.
Perestroika and Estonia regains independence:
Jewish Cultural Society was established in Tallinn. It was the first of its kind in the entire Soviet Union. Exceptionally in the Soviet Union, there were no problems with registering either the society or its symbols. The Society began by organising concerts and lectures. Soon the question of founding a Jewish school surfaced. As a start, a Sunday school was established in 1989. The Tallinn Jewish Gymnasium on Karu Street was being used by a vocational school. In 1990, a Jewish School with classes 1 through 9 was established.
Jewish culture clubs, which remained under the wing of the Cultural Society, were started in Tartu, Narva and Kohtla-Järve. Other organisations followed; the sports society Maccabi, the Society for the Gurini Goodwill Endowment and the Jewish Veterans Union. Life returned to the Jewish congregation. Courses in Hebrew were re-established. Thanks to the Jewish communities of Israel and other countries a relatively large library was opened.
The restoration of Estonian independence in 1991 brought about numerous political, economic and social changes. The Jews living in Estonia could now defend their rights as a national minority. The Jewish Community was established in 1992, and its charter was approved on April 11, 1992. Likewise, Estonia has traditionally regarded its Jews with friendship and accommodation. To illustrate this a new Cultural Autonomy Act, based on the 1925 law, was passed in Estonia in October 1993. This law grants minority peoples, such as Jews, a legal guarantee to preserve their national identities.
In 2005, construction began on a new building in Tallinn, which will house a sanctuary, mikvah, and restaurant, and will be a memorial to the pre-war synagogue. Opening is scheduled for May 2007.
Now... please tell me again, who mistreated Jews? And don't even try to claim that the article is written by "Nazi revisionists", as there are several Jews among the editors of the article - you cannot claim that they would allow any wrong ("Fascist") information to be said about history of the Jews. DLX17:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
They had a choice, they were the once who chose it. Again, they started the holocaust before the Germans came.
Who cares what they decided in 1950. It was already the cold war offcourse they will try to suck-up to ex-Nazis to tear the Soviet Union from the inside. They were involved in the holocaust, it's a fact, ask any Estonian Jew. Jews always were in every independence movement so somwhere they would be excepted. I saw a ducumentary with Jews from Estonia who menneged to escape with the Soviets, and also Estinian vitnesses, and they told how Estonians closed hundreeds of Jews in every synogoge and burned them down. You're right about what was with the Jews in USSR (I'm half Jewish, my mother is Jewish, and my grand-grandpa set in Jail there for a short time for teaching Hebrew), but nevertheless, the Soviets didn't give to Estonians to make pogroms at Jews. By the way, at the days of the Tallin Liberator reburial there were many interviews with Jews from Estonia telling how Estonians murdered their people then.
All the Jewqish community activities in the 80s and 90s was spoonsored by the Jews, and dont forget in 1987-1989 it was still the Soviet Union. Estonia is desperate for world support, thats why for now the Jews are safe there. Offcourse there are Jews among the writers of the article, but there are also Estonians. M.V.E.i. 17:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You know, you are pushing your personal - and I might add, highly racist - opinion. Come up with a single source of "started the holocaust before the Germans came", because now it has as much base as my claim that President Putin is a Tooth Fairy. And do you really think cold war matters (it had not started during the Nuremberg Trials, fyi), when we are talking about crimes against humanity? How petty-minded can you get? Please look at the sources, the facts... none of them support your version of history, just face it, you are wrong.
And please do not disregard my other questions/replies, that was the favourite tactic of FBB as well - yell really loudly "You all are fascists" and keep repeating it, no matter what is said by others. DLX17:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
It's a fact and i explained you why and from where i took it. Putin cant be a Tuth Fairy, she's to tall for him. The cold war began when USSR was founded, it just didn't have the name yet. And abou your question, America spreat so much lies about the USSR, like saying Borman is a Russian spy (And todey even they confess it was a lie), and Senathor Joseph MacArthy who even commited crimed against humanity. Infact, USA contenued the previously-stoped cold war already at the Race For Berlin, which the Soviets won. Already at the founding of the United Nations Security Council Britain made shure France will get a seat there so the west could have more seats there (France, the country who lay as a carpet infront of the Nazis). The cold war was always in the air. M.V.E.i. 18:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I think I've done with both this discussion and editing Misplaced Pages for today. There is really no point to discuss this further, as you fail to provide any sources (where is the explanation for "why and from where i took it"?) or even look at any source/information I provide. Estonians have never hated or hurt the Jews, that is a simple fact (fyi, my best friend is a Jew, several Estonian "national treasures" are Jews (Eino Baskin and Eri Klas, for example)). Hopefully in the future you can open your mind for different views - for example, read different history books, all Russian, English and American. You cannot presume all of them are lying. Thank you for the discussion and I hope that our next meeting will be in better circumstances. DLX18:34, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
We will prove that DLX is a constant lier. READ THIS DLX
In May 2005, Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip gave a speech while visiting Klooga in which he both condemned the Holocaust and accepted that Estonian citizens were complicit in committing war crimes during WWII: Although these murderers must answer for their crimes as individuals, the Estonian Government continues to do everything possible to expose these crimes.
I apologise for the fact that Estonian citizens could be found among those who participated in the murdering of people or assisted in the perpetration of these crimes.
THATS what i was talking about. It's a fact that Estonians, together with Latvians and Lithuenians had the highest precent of population helping to the Nazis in Europe. And DLX saying that the Estonians didn't participate in the German war-crimes, just proves my point, im Psychology this is called denial, one of the most not healthiest in Defence Mechanism. M.V.E.i. 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how the Ansip quote makes DLX a lier. The tragic fact is there were Nazi collaborators throughout Europe. The French did not necessarily acquit themselves well, either. All DLX said was Estonia wasn't murdering Jews to make less work for the Nazis when they arrived: which is your contention. All the Baltic states have acknowledged those who were complicit in Nazi crimes. The Latvian president, in fact, just received the highest award which the American Jewish Council bestows.
Your tirades about Baltic Nazis ("highest percentage of population participating"--your source would be?) are your opinion only.
I do not deny Russia and her Soviet-era veterans celebrating the victory over Nazism. However, I do deny Russia still insisting the Soviet Union "liberated" the Baltics--and that anything anti-Soviet = anti-(anti-Nazi hero) = Nazi. You have been listening to too much Russian propaganda. You are welcome to believe what you wish, but you are not welcome to spew it without reputable sources to properly substantiate your statements. — Pēters J. Vecrumba07:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The Balts started murdering Jews so when German arrive they will see how loytal they are. YOU have been listening to much to Baltic lies that the whole world critisizes. The French colaborate with everybody they are not a role model for a brave nation, but nevertheless, the Balts colaborated more then anybody else. The soviet uniaon Liberated the Baloric states from the Nazis, anyway, the Balts who don't agree with that aw ho dont feel liberated, why dont they agree with that? Because they though that in the Nazi world they would get a place for "loyalty" to the Nazis and finaly will feel "Big People". M.V.E.i.
Please provide evidence citing a respected Jewish organization, say the American Jewish Council or the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which backs up your claim that the Balts were murdering Jews to ingratiate themselves to the Nazis before the Nazis even arrived.
Don't mistake the initial welcoming of the invading Nazis for eagerly embracing Jew-murderers, it was purely a response to the Soviets having been driven out after a year of the NKVD and Red Army having ravaged the Baltics and its inhabitants. The Nazis had their own plans for subjugating the Baltics, but for the moment, they allowed the national anthems to once again play on the airwaves.
In reference to Baltic Jews, in that first year of Soviet occupation prior to the Nazi invasion, Stalin had already decimated the Jewish merchant ("bourgeousie") class, liquidating thousands of Jews--murdered or deported to their deaths in Siberia, just like the Balts--before Hitler even arrived. If you had Jewish family or relatives in the Baltics who were murdered during the first Soviet occupation, it was Stalinism, not Nazism, that killed them. — Pēters J. Vecrumba15:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
(Ok there are to much Balts spoiling MY talk page). ITS A KNOWN FACT, it's like asking: Find me a link in the internet that fire burns if you touch it, but if you want, please:
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/lithuania1/lithuania1.html
and the quotes:
Unlike other Nazi-occupied countries, where most Jewish citizens were put to death in gas chambers, a large majority of Jews in the Baltic countries were slaughtered brutally with firearms and other weapons by their Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian neighbors (sometimes under German supervision).
Children in the Kovno ghetto, whose friends had been murdered by Lithuanians, wrote in Lithuanian a bitter parody of the national anthem "Lithuania, Our Homeland":
Lithuania, Our Blood-Land
May you be accursed for centuries
Let your blood flow
Like the blood of Jewish children". (and so on)
Just type Baltic states jews murder in google and you will get more, this are only the forst two.
Finaly, you can read the book Tiggers in the Mudd, written by a Nazi soldier, where he wrote that when they arrived to Estonia all the Jewish houses were already smashed and many Jews were killed.
and there are many more like this! M.V.E.i. 17:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
No response? That's just nice. M.V.E.i. 11:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't check your userpage for messages unless we are actively discussing something. Secondly, the question here is whether Estonians had massacred Jews before arrival of Germans.
Your source says "...Lithuanian, Latvian, and Estonian neighbors..". Mass pogroms in Latvia and Lithuania happened, but in Estonia, Soviets had deported all wealthier Jews (remember those 500 that were sent to Siberia? Shop and factory owners, university professors and scientists) and majority of other Jews had already gone to Soviet Union before Germans got there - around 1500 were still in Estonia. There were simply not enough Jews - nor wealthy Jews - for pogroms to happen (I think I will send an email to the professor that wrote it and ask for clarification). Those "smashed Jewish houses" that your beloved Nazi speaks of belonged to those that were already gone from Estonia - killed/deported by Soviets or fled. By the way, why do you think that he, a Nazi, spoke the truth, instead of trying to look as innocent as possible, by trying to drop guilt on others?
Also, none of your sources actually mentions that Jews were mass-killed before arrival of German troops in Estonia. See : "Of the approximately 4,300 Jews in Estonia prior to the war, between 1,500 and 2,000 were entrapped by the Nazis. These Jews also met their death at the hands of the German Einsatzgruppe.", "...1,000 Estonian Jews were killed three months after the Nazi army entered Estonia in 1941." , "From early on, the Germans subjected Estonian Jews to harsh measures including confiscation of property and forcing them to wear yellow badges identifying them as Jews. These measures were only temporary as the Nazis prepared to murder all Estonian Jews. German SS and police units, together with Estonian auxiliaries, massacred the Jews of Estonia by the end of 1941.".
Nobody has denied that there were collaborators - in Baltic countries, same as in Russia and all over Europe - and that they participated in Holocaust. Soviet Union did extensive investigations after they re-occupied Estonia, I think I remember (not sure of this fact, but won't look for source just now - will do that later, though) that they had trials of 16 Estonians for participation in Holocaust. Most of those involved were probably killed during the war or fled Estonia, but altogether there may have been perhaps at most 100..200 Estonians involved (probably less). DLX10:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
My friend, now we know that even freaks can start learning how to read. Do you remember his answer: none of Estonian ss legioners killed civil jews, Russians, etc. Now he admits that the figure is 100-200. It’s a big progress in his sad study, yeah. Beatle Fab Four15:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I am not (and won't ever be) your friend. Don't twist my words, I have "admitted" nothing like that. Waffen SS legion and collaborators are totally different things - these collaborators were not in Waffen SS legion, like you have been repeatedly told, especially since that aforementioned legion was not even formed then. I am sorry, if you cannot to understand even simplest words. Perhaps some additional pre-school classes are required? DLX17:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
We won, now i argue with them just for fun, its just nice watching them trying to defend their-"dignity" (As if they have any left) and changing from one version to another (I already have a few more links prepared, but i wanna see them talking some more bullshit). M.V.E.i.
DLX, if anyone here should sit quiet it's you. You proved yourself as a true Estonian, trying to hit and when you see your to week going crying to administrators who are lazy to learn the case. Youve lost, then and now, as they say in those films, you have the right to remain silent everything you say will be used against you, it's called a knockout. M.V.E.i.
Also, you neglect Stalin's effect before the Nazis arrived. (Krushschev described Stalin as a virulent anti-Semite.) The Soviets deported or killed the Jewish civic and political elite during the first occupation, and Jews were included in the mass deportations of Balts the week before the Nazi invasion. www.jewishgen.org, the very site you mention (these numbers are only with regard to Latvia, the number across the Baltics is obviously a good deal higher):
estimates Jews were deported in the thousands; articles cited estimate 4,000-5,000, suffering numerically proportionally more at Stalin's hands than any other part of the Latvian population
and also suffering more than other ethnicities once deported (research by Dov Levin).
Because the Baltics had authoritarian regimes (as did pretty much all of Europe), that does not mean authoritarian equates to (bourgeousie) fascist equates to Nazi. That's Soviet propaganda, nothing more.
The most heinous manufacture of Soviet propaganda is not that the Soviets liberated the Baltics, but that Stalin and his Red Army were the glorious liberator of Hitler's death camps and saviors of the Jews--conveniently omitting Stalin's atrocities against the Jews of Eastern Europe. — Pēters J. Vecrumba15:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. The Waffen SS Eastern European units were formed after the Nazi Holocaust had taken its toll. They were created to fight against the Red Army. — Pēters J. Vecrumba15:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
THIS RESPONSE IS TO BOTH ESTONIANS. Read the book Tigers in the Mudd, written by a Nazi soldier, where it's written black on white that when the Nazis arrived there were already burning pofroms made by the Estonians. Dont say same as in all Europe, you cant delete numbers from history. They didn't just shut up like the French (And French ain't an example of a people with dignity aren't they, thats why in comedies the French is always a coward), they colloborated more then anybody else, unlike Russia where only a few collaborated, the masses fought against the Nazis, that's why villages were burned and people hung all over, just read this book and other books. The Red Army libarated the Jews, it's a fact, don't try to change it (Like, who are you trying to say saved them, and don't tell me Estonians). YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE LINKS, it's written their about the Estonian SS to, your trying to change history thats all. And i'm not a deffender of Stalin, he's a creep alright, but in the competition "Creep no. 1" the Estonians manegged to goin Hittler in the first place, but you dont say congratulations for that do you. The Estonian SS also took part in the murder of Jews in death camps. M.V.E.i.
AND HERE IS THE KNOCKOUT. The two Estonians here first said that Estonians didn't killed Jews, after a gave them the links that prove they speak lies, they moved to a version that the Estonian SS didn't kill Jews, and here are the links that prove they are wrong:
There are more where that came from, it's juat the first links that came out in Google, just type Estonian SS Killing Jews. I've got Google so, knockout. M.V.E.i.
I've been following this discussion for quite a long time and I feel I can't keep silent anymore.
2. I really can't remember DLX claiming that "Estonians didn't killed Jews" (your words), so could you point out that place? Otherwise it seems that you are simply lying.
3. You should really read the articles that you link to, not simply look them up in Google. The second of your links (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005448) doesn't mention Estonian SS with a single word. Both others are part of Russian propaganda.
4. Read again what DLX wrote about your "Tiger in the Mud". Do you really think a Nazi soldier is a reliable source? Seems you trust Nazis too much.
5. A couple of links for you (seems you like adding links very much): http://www.holocausttaskforce.org/speeches/details/2006-07-04/document.pdf (I recommend page 16 especially). And one more - http://home.mira.net/~vanagi/AV/Latvian_Legion.pdf (about Latvian legion). A little quote: "We Americans were surprised with the just, good behaviour, kindness, and first class accuracy of the guards of the camp. Very soon, we found out that the guards of the camp were Latvians. Each of them kept hidden the Latvian national flag somewhere under their German uniform. They explained to us: "you Americans are our real friends and hope. The Germans are our hated enemies. Our dream and aim is the independent Latvia".
6. I tried to google "estonian ss kill jews" as you offered and got 50 100 results. You might think that's a lot? But then I tried to google "russia kill jews" and got 1 190 000 results! Yeah, Google really is a simple thing to find out the truth. Quercus schnobur12:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
1. All those baltic residents are the same for me, if you combine them into one you will get a 1/25 of a nation. 2. Just go to the talk page about the Liberator Of Tallinn, when he was asked how many Jews did estonians kill, he said "o because they didnt participate in the holocaust". 3. For you even if you will read British history books you will say "Russian Propaganda". i gave you facts, so sit quiet. 4. It's funny, you make out excuses to push out reliable sources. It's a reliabnle source because he just told what happend, offcourse he would try to show the German soldiers "as id they had no choice", but still it was recognized as a reliable objective source. He told only the truth there, if he would want to lie he would push it all on Russians, like you do, and he wouldn't agree how strong the Russians are. 5. The links you gave me are not reliable, esspecialy the second one, but the first one to. If you'll enter to Who We Are there you will see that this organization features representetives from many countries, including the Baltic ones, and they offcaurse affect there. It's not nutral. Yeah, the Germans are your Enemies yet you were their uniforms and also "worked hard" for the SS in their name. And offcaurse America would write it, after world War 2 when the Cold War is burning and they need friends agains the Russians. P.S. if you want a real american link that could be trusted check this out http://www.remember.org/secrets/ and heres an Australian one http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1997/2214/ozols.html and another nice one http://www.jewishgen.org/latvia/SIG_Newsletter/0702_SIG_January_2003.pdf 6. Results 1 - 10 of about 50,100 for Estonian SS kill Jews. (0.09 seconds). You Balts try to represent lies as truth so you could lower your national shame, it will never happen, the history is against you. M.V.E.i. 18:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Am I dreaming? You call an organization an unreliable source because it "features representetives from many countries"? You must be joking. And you still haven't provided a proof that DLX said that Estonians didn't kill jews, I couldn't find nothing of that kind in Bronze Soldier of Tallinn talk page (I guess that's what you mean with "Liberator Of Tallinn"). If there is one, it should easily be found here. If you can't find it you have to admit that you have lied. And still, none of the three sources you provided doesn't mention Baltic legions with a single word. Quercus schnobur11:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Just ask Fab Four, he've seen it i think, or even better, ask DLX, i'm not shore he'll denie it. The quote, i said, when we asked him how many Jews were killed by the Estonians he said "0, because they didn't participate in the holocaust". Estonian SS, Latvian police, it aint enough for you huh? than take this http://depts.washington.edu/baltic/papers/worldwar2.htm (go to Holocaust, paragraph 2). http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/nollend_hist.htm . There are many more from where those came from. M.V.E.i. 17:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, what I said was that Estonian SS-Legion didn't participate in Holocaust in Estonia (they weren't formed before 1942, Holocaust in Estonia was done by the end of 1941) - or abroad. This still stands, and you haven't given any sources contradicting that (actually, that "abroad" is questionable, as they were stationed in a city (in Belorus, if my memory serves me correctly), during a murder of Jews there. However, they were one unit out of many there and there is no evidence of their involvement. Also, Germans usually used purely German units in such places.). But enough of that - did you actually read the second source that you gave, History of the Occupation of Latvia (1940-1991)? This is an excellent source about Soviet and German occupations - and Holocaust - which contradicts many things that you have claimed. Everything in there seems to be very solidly sourced in both English and Latvian, cannot say for sure, as I read it only briefly. DLX18:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Check out all the links i have given here, and you will see that the Estonian SS was not only in Estonia but elso in other countries, where it participated in the murdering of Jews. In Estonia etself most of the Jews were destroyed by 1943, by Germans and mainy by the locals, but some were still left after 1943, and they were destroyed by the Estonian SS. Just read the links i have given here. And the web site you gave me is not reliable, it's Latvian, and the Baltic goverments now try to re-write history so it would lower their shame, esspecially now that thay want to be Europe (thought they didn't make and contribution to Europe, the opposite is true). The text i gave you are perfectly sourced and are basid on historic document, if you want read it word by word and not briefly. M.V.E.i. 18:34, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Blocked
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 31 hours in accordance with Misplaced Pages's blocking policy for repeated abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.
You, sir, have been disrupting various talk pages with your personal attacks against all and sundry who do not share your particular point of view. This stops now. Once your block expires, you can disagree with whomever you want as strongly as you want, but you will please do it with perfect civility, or you will face decidedly longer blocks. Sandstein21:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't write PD-old, i wrote PD-art. Point of view?? You started blocking people and you didn't even learn the case. This Estonian wrote lies, he tried to lie about World War 2 to make himself feel less shame about his nationallity. He wrote such obvious lies, that it was just pure vandalism. You, by blocking us instead of him, took part in this vandalism, because now those few Estonians who write lies there could write anything they want, and there will be no one to stop them. M.V.E.i. 16:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
You, dear sir, are a liar. I am in no way shamed about my "nationallity", perhaps the opposite might apply. How about actually showing where I lied or vandalized the article, instead of using Soviet-style propaganda BS? I have asked for proof from you quite several times by now - you have failed to respond. And you really should apologize to Estonians for your racist remarks. DLX20:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm proud of mine. You are shames, thats why you lie, to reduce your shame. Examples of lies are when you said Estonian SS didn't kill any Jews, and you had many other like that. M.V.E.i. 21:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Together we will win. We all ordinary Russians condemn Stalin crimes, but this DLX cannot admit elementary things about Estonian WW2 crimes. BTW he constantly purges wiki articles on such crimes. LOVE AND PEACE 85.140.211.20021:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
We already won, in 1945. The truth is one, and there are to many people that know it, so DLX could not change it. By the way, about the Sandstein or whatever who blocked us, i knew that would happen. He's a German, so i expected it. He didn't say anything to DLX about what he does. M.V.E.i. 21:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Those Estonians can shout till the morrning, that still won't change the fact there liers. I dont even care about the block, its temporery, the truth is eternal. M.V.E.i. 21:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. you were blocked for violating the 3 revert rule right? check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules i think that fighting vandalizm improves articles. By fighting vandalism and ignoring the 3 revert rule you followed by this rule that i gave you the link to it. M.V.E.i. 21:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:8_May_2007.JPG listed for deletion
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They are not copyrigted, cmmon is that your way to fight me? Saying on Free-Domains there copyrighted? Nice. Their license were copied excecly as they were writen on their original pages on Misplaced Pages. M.V.E.i. 18:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I am not fighting you. I am trying to make you conform to our policies. You did not specify the images' source, as you must under the image use policy. Please read it, and follow it. These were Soviet medals, and I am quite sure the Soviet government didn't licence anything under a Creative Commons licence. Sandstein18:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Go to the Soviet Medals page and see. M.V.E.i. 18:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok that i didn't know, thanks. M.V.E.i. 20:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
License tagging for Image:FromSiezd.JPG
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Listen, you must urgently read and apply our image use policy. The image you uploaded, File:FromSiezd.JPG (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), has no source ("the website" isn't a valid source) and you have improperly tagged it as {{PD-Art}}. It's a contemporary photograph, and obviously not a reproduction of a two-dimensional work of art that is in the public domain. Please bring this image and all the other images you uploaded into compliance with the image use policy immediately. You will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages for any further copyright violations. Sandstein05:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you spying on my contribution pahe or somthing so you could find a reasin to block me?? I saw it doesnt fit so i deleted it after a few minutes. M.V.E.i. 18:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not trying to find a reason to block you, I'm trying to make you conform to our policies. And no, you did not delete the image, because you cannot. It is still uploaded. Click here to see it. Please bring it into conformance with the WP:IUP immediately. Sandstein18:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
That i don't know hoe to do, BUT if you like you can do that. I nevertheless de;eted it from the article i have puted it into. If you would like you can explaine me the next thing, what license fits a public domain from the internet. M.V.E.i. 19:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
No, it is important that you know how to handle images properly, or you could get Misplaced Pages into legal trouble. Please read WP:IUP and ask if you have any specific questions. As to your question, if an image is in the public domain, it does not have a licence. It must have a image copyright tag, though. You must now add the correct source of the image to the image page, and then you must apply the correct image copyright tag, which you can select from here. Sandstein19:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I tried to follow what they say but it still didn't come out right. M.V.E.i. 19:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's wrong. The source link must be outside the template. There is no copyright tag {{CopyrightedFreeUse}}. And why do you think this image is in the public domain? Where does it say so on the website? Sandstein19:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I know the menneger of the website, it's free alright. Anyway, please help, what licence do i put if it's a free photo from the Internet? M.V.E.i. 16:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The correct tag would be {{PD-author}}. But that you know the manager of the website is not enough. You must only upload Web-found PD images if there is proof, which others can verify, that the image is PD. For instance, a statement on the website that says "our images are public domain". Without such proof, your uploads are presumed to be copyright infringements. Sandstein18:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Do not troll article talk pages.
This is a final warning. Your recent additions to Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn were removed for containing inflammatory political discourse completely foreign to the article's subject. Misplaced Pages talk pages are not a general discussion forum. See WP:TPG. Repeated trolling of this sort may lead to blocks. Sandstein18:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You didn't delete their lies, by nevertheless you deleted the links i gave that prove my point. M.V.E.i. 18:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours in accordance with Misplaced Pages's blocking policy for repeated disruption of article talk pages with offtopic inflammatory political discourse. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below. Sandstein20:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
How do they give people like you to be administrators. M.V.E.i. 21:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
image: 8_May_2007.JPG
The image file name and quote is inaccurate:
"The statue at the new location. Photo taken on May 8, 2007 (European VE Day), when a quiet ceremony was held. On the next day, May 9, 2007 (Russian Victory Day), the place was crowded with people and flowers."
On the picture the visible people include from the left:
2nd: Nikolay Uspensky - Russian ambassador in Estonia
4th (with white hair): Nikolay Kovalev - leader of the Russian State Duma delegation
6th (younger man at the forefront): Leonid Slutsky - member of the Russian State Duma delegation
Russian State Duma delegation visited the new location of the statue on May 1st. On 8th May they had already left Estonia. Russian Embassy and the ambassador in Estonia refused to take part in the 8th May activities of reopening the site. Russian Embassy visited site on 9th May.
This photograph is most certainly taken on May 1st.
Notable is also, that contrary to WIKI traditions, the image is supplied only in low resolution thumbnail, without original version in actual resolution, including EXIF data.
Yeah but it's afree domain so many could use it. For East-Europeans the 9th May is the Victory Day. M.V.E.i. 10:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I understand from the image summary that you've received permission from the copyright owner of this image to release it into the public domain. For this to be valid on Misplaced Pages you need to send it in to permissions-en@wikimedia.org - full details can be found Misplaced Pages:Requesting copyright permission. Without this evidence, the image may still be deleted. 09:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I already deleted it from the E-Mail, but the fact that people found it on different Web-Sites it's the prove that it's a Public Domain. Besides, it's not a special permission for Misplaced Pages to use it, it's just me asking if it's a public domain and them answering that it is. The article from which i took it was from the 8th may, so. ok this one came out as a stupid mistake from me. Anyway, it does'nt change the fact that it's a Public Domain. M.V.E.i. 11:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The fact that other websites use it does not automatically make the image public domain. Without the evidence it it just your word and Misplaced Pages relies on the principles of verification - WP:V so unfortunately that isn't good enough. I'm going to tag the image as {{PUIdisputed}} as this needs to be discussed further.Madmedea15:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The guys from the web-site told me so, that it's a PD. M.V.E.i. 19:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
It's a shame if you'll take it of there, it's a really good photo. M.V.E.i. 20:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
"Stupid" arguments
Please refrain from using offensive language in your discussions, like the one on the discussion page of Russians in Ukraine. Characterizing an opponent or his comments as "stupid" is uncivil and is uncalled for. (see WP:NPA) If your behaviour doesn't change you will be reported to the administrators. Hope it will not be necessary.--Hillock6519:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
When did i call nyone stupid there? M.V.E.i. 19:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, i have seen. Sorry, i ment that trying to hurt other nationalities is stupid i didn't try to insult you, sorry. M.V.E.i. 19:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
On the image illustrating ethnic Russians
The article is not about the history of culture in the Russian state, it's about ethnic Russians. There is a wide variety of famous ethnic Russians to represent the ethnicity, and there is no need in providing a picture with those who are in some way not fully representative of the Russian ethnicity. So please, let's keep Pushkin out of this, and let's not confuse ethnicity with nationality (as in citizenship). I'm not that sure about Donskoi myself, I would actually prefer Nevsky, as he is extremely famous (and not for his cooperation with the Golden Horde). However, you can offer some other medieval ruler, if you want. Or maybe a saint, like Sergiy Radonezhsky, though his appearance is inconspicious, whereas it would certainly be proper to underline the rugged nature of Medieval Russians. The size of the image is identical to the one used on the Polish and the English sites, and smaller than the Italian one. Speaking of Mendeleev, the picture is simply not good. Besides, his periodic table isn't used in English-speaking countries, so he's not that famous. At any rate, there is a huge variety of important Russian inventors, but I believe that Mikhail Lomonosov is an adequate representative of the whole Russian scientific community, a Renaissanse man as he was. I'm opposed to increasing the number of pictures on the image. It's an illustration, after all, and not a hall of fame. And we'll have to make the portraits really narrow, since at the moment they properly correspond with the proportions of an average human face. Will it be okay if I simply replace Vasnetsov with Dostoevsky? Humanophage 20:42, 23 May, 2007 (UTC)
Why Pushkin can't be considered Russian? Because one of his grand-granndfathers was black? It's a stupid argument, I believe. Beatle Fab Four19:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree on that, i mean, Chikovski was half French (which explains his sexual orientation), and yet he considered himself Ethnic Russian thought he was only half Ethnic Russian, and he's the greatest composer of Russia and maybe the worlds. Pushknin is a symbol, he started what eventually ended with Russian literature being the greatest in the world, and he was mostly Ethnic Russian. M.V.E.i. 20:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Donskoy is exelent, but if Ivan III of Russia fits here. With all respect to Vasnetsov, i thing that replace Vasnetsov with Dostoevsky is a great idea. Pushkin was mostly Ethnic Russian. Mendeleyevs table is tought everywere, it doesn't netter if it's called The Mendeleyevs Table or just the Periodic Table. Anyway, about making the image biger your right, so lets agree on puting Ivan III instead od Donskoy and replace Vasnetsov with Dostoevsky, but i still think that Pushkin should replace Yesenin (but i can see that on that we have no concensus, so just lets agree on the Ivan III and Dostoyevski). M.V.E.i. 20:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Glad that we managed to reach an agreement. I actually don't mind Donskoy at all, it's just that I had certain objections regarding Nevsky. The problem with Donskoy is that he's not so well-known outside Russia. Ivan III is a nice suggestion, but he isn't famous either, so I'd say it's better to keep Doskoy there, since he is so symbolic for the Russians. Hopefully, the rest of the world shall know him better one day. As for Ivan III, his first Misplaced Pages image isn't particularly complimentary, although the icon is fine (even though a bit abstract in comparison to that of Donskoy) and a freedom-fighting duke such as Donskoy would probably be more appealing to the public than Ivan III with his authoritarian style. What are your thoughts on this subject? P.S. Oh, and I actually agree with you on Dostoyevsky. Indeed, it's often noted that literature somewhat overweights the rest of Russian cultural achievements. The same thing as with all the British ethnicities. Humanophage 21:42, 23 May, 2007 (UTC)
Bro, frankly, I'm shocked by these Stone Age arguments, or more correctly, crap. "Esenin is a liitle bit better ethnically than Pushkin, as his lips and eyes are right." Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Beatle Fab Four20:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I also still think the Pushkin fits more then Yesenin. M.V.E.i. 09:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that now it's perfect, we've reached the complete consensus. About Ivan III, actually, to the people he was nice, he was bad to the Boyars, but he had a reason for that. They were cruel to the people and took to much part in the government, but nevertheless, Donskoy is a symbol for the ideal freedom-fighter, he's the most not-controversious man there is Yesterday i wanted to offer Tarkovsky but there is no place there, so the current image is the most perfect it can be, but i still belive that Pushkin fits here. M.V.E.i. 09:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Please don't troll checkuser requests
While I understand, and on some levels share, your concerns about the nationalist editors, trolling checkuser requests is not constructive. Please stop. --Selket22:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
If they want me to be honest, they should be to. They start edit wars and vandalize articles. It's not ok from their side, i just wanted them to fill how it fills when someone uses not-fair methods against them. M.V.E.i. 09:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Why are you ignoring the E-Mails i send you? You didn't even learn and try to understand my side of the conflict. M.V.E.i. 16:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
.
Following the discussion on WP:AN/I#User:M.V.E.i. I have decided to shorten your block to 1 month. Please never again try to evade your block by sockpuppeting or editing as IP. It would make your block reset and possibly increased. Many good but short-tempered users were caught in the vicious cycle block-avoidance-longer block-sock puppeting-...-permablock please do not follow their steps. The correct way to answer an argument or correct an article while blocked is to post suggestion on your talk page or E-mail a user (e.g. me). I would be happy to make correction or post your argument on your behalf.
When the block would expire please behave civilly. There are many points of view presented on Misplaced Pages. As a rule of thumb the more foreign and wrong the POV is the more restrained you should be in your approach to the carrier. Alex Bakharev01:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, your an honest guy! M.V.E.i. 22:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid Alex failed to discuss the block with the blocking admin. Until he does so I have reverted your block to indefinite. Neil╦10:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Holocaust denial
In the heated argument, one of your opponents posted a comment or edit summary stating that (20,000) Jews could not have been exterminated in Estonia in 1943 - 1944, because Estonia was declared Judenfrei already in 1941. I could not find the post now. You might be able to locate it. -- Petri Krohn15:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I searched for it but couldn't find it. If i woldn't be blocked i could response them on some of the stuff they write on me, they just say so many things which are absurd. M.V.E.i. 17:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
That bullshit is on your page. See "...Holocaust in Estonia was done by the end of 1941. ...". Definitely, NOT. Well, yes, it shows his dilettantism, to speak softly.
Hh, found it. So i wasted time on the Bronze Liberator talk page to find it for nothing. P.S. I left you a time ago a messege on your talk page. M.V.E.i. 19:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok the one who said it was DLX on my talk page. You can find in in the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:M.V.E.i.&redirect=no#Your_recent_actions
Here is the quote-"Round-ups and killings of Jews began immediately following the arrival of the first German troops in Estonia in the summer of 1941, who were closely followed by the extermination squad Einsatzkommando (Sonderkommando) 1A, part of Einsatzgruppe A. Arrests and executions continued as the Germans advanced through Estonia. About 75% of Estonia's Jewish community, aware of the fate that otherwise awaited them, had managed to escape to the Soviet Union; virtually all the remainder (between 950 and 1000 men, women and children) were killed before the end of 1941. Fewer than a dozen Estonian Jews are known to have survived the war in Estonia.". M.V.E.i. 19:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Another time they denial partas of Holocaust history is claiming "Estonian SS didn't kill Jews". Maybe the Estonian collaborators were fast in killing the Estonian Jews, but the Estonian SS took part on killing Jews in a few labour camps and in Belarus. M.V.E.i. 19:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
O'mi, he keeps repeating it. M.V.E.i. 17:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Beatle, Petri, check this out
In the Bronze Liberator article, in the bottom you can see:
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to
Andrus Ansip.
I think it's irrelevant to the article, could anybody delete this? because i'm blocked and can write only on my talk page, so i cant delete. M.V.E.i. 20:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Your right, thats why i told you about it. M.V.E.i. 21:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Guys
On the new discussion on me on the Administrators page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Sanity_check_please) among the froups i "hate" they have put Israelis. Could someone please explain them i'm an Israeli and that i said it that someone used a census that says there are 2.5 Million Russians in USA, i said that the same census shows a number of Israelis, and their aint such a narionality. But their really aint, we Israelis are Jews, just like their aint such nationality Rossiyani. I said that so they would undertand that this census talks about Citizenship not Ethnic group. M.V.E.i. 22:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Alex, here is the explanation note you asked me to write, you can give the link to it on the page the discussion is now held.
Because of me being blocked, i could'nt explain many stuff said on me, which usually was wrong understood and shown.
Among the groups i "hate" Neil gave Israelis because i said "theres no such race as Israelis". I'm an Israeli and i said itwhen someone used a census that says there are 2.5 Million Russians in USA, i said that the same census shows a number of Israelis, and their aint such a nationality. But their really aint, we Israelis are Jews, just like their aint such nationality Rossiyani. I said that so the user i talked to would see that this census talks about Citizenship not Ethnic group. About the other groups, i dont hate any. About the French, it's a joke guys. About the Germans, i like Rammstein, and it came from anger. About the Balts, i don't hate those who didn't collaborate.
I never called races subhuman, i calles those people who collaborated with the Nazis subhuman, and i still think this way.
When i really used the phrase "little people" towords balts is because i came from a family of those who fought against the Nazis for the USSR at World War 2, and i had many who died at the holocaust at my Jewish side (Jewish mother), ond of hunger (Russian Side), and some things DLX here said made me mad, i shouldn't loose my temper there.
I relly shouldn't have lost my temper, actually i'm not a conflict person. If anybody wants to know, when their was an edit war on an article i've created i tryed to make peace beetwen the wariers. The current Russian people image came after a compromise between me and the one who uploaded it. I came to Misplaced Pages to contribute, and more in Music then in Politics. I still hold the same views on DLX, but i agree a shouldn't have lost my temper, and be shure from now i will express my views without frases like "little People", i learned my lesson. I'm glad most support to reduce my block to one month, because it's not easy to keep the articles i now write for Misplaced Pages as Word documents on my computer. M.V.E.i. 17:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Block length
M.V.E.i., it would be better if you could avoid expressing your political views in any way on Misplaced Pages. There isn't really a consensus on the admin noticeboard about what to do about your block - half want it to be a month, half want it to be indefinite. If you can agree to watch what you say, and avoid making any kind of nationalistic comments, or anything that could be perceived as grossly anti-Estonian, anti-Balt, or anti-French (I think those were the main peoples you kept denigrating), or anti-anyone, I will reduce the block to 2 months (from the date of the original offence) - how does that sound?
In particular, I would like you to stop arguing to DLX. If he says something that upsets you, try to just go and do something else (on or off Misplaced Pages) - you do not have to respond, I think this is what has gotten you into trouble. I will wait to see your response here; if you can promise to be nice, I'll reduce your block length to expire on the 4th of August. I'll also roll back your user page.
I would warn you that any further kind of racism or hatespeech would see you indefinitely blocked and nobody would listen to your appeal then. Neil╦21:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that if M.V.E.i. would just stay clear of the "political" articles, he wouldn't make bigoted slurs? Digwuren05:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I actually dont make those in political articles to, here i just got pissed off, and in that case i will not loose my temper in the future and would talk civil. M.V.E.i. 14:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm just going to do it in a more civil way, without leting myself loose it if i get pissed-off. I'm not a nationalist, i used ethnic insults because, i already explained why, but i'm aware it was not ok. Some things he said made me mad, like "Estonian SS didn't kill any Jews" (Thought i had many who were killed in the holocaust in Belarus, and i know that the Estonian SS took part there), and like claiming the Holocause in Estonia started with the German arrival thought a German-Officer in the book Tiggers in the Mudd said that when the Germans arrived the Estonians already finished most of the Jews. During this argument, i lost my temper and talked uncivil, and that was my mistake, which in the future i will avoid to make. I'm not Anti-French (it was a joke, probablly not a good one) or anti-German (i'm a fan of Rammstein) and i'm not Anti-Baltic, just anti those who collaborated with the Nazis. M.V.E.i. 14:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Block length reduced
After a conversation with Alex Bakharev, your block will now expire on 4 August. Trying to post anywhere other than this talk page between now and then will probably lead to the block becoming indefinite again. Neil╦10:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. M.V.E.i. 14:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Alex, Beatle, Petri, thank you
You helped me and while i was blocked you held my defence, thank you! After my block will be finished i'm gonna add thank-you medals on your pages. Thank you! M.V.E.i. 14:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Digwuren again
Digwuren created this document against Petri Krohn. All i can say is that always when someone looses a war, he starts cursing the winner, and that's what happened, after Petri won the war here. Alex puted this page in the category of Miscellaneous pages for deletion, which is the right move, but Nevertheless, i dont think that a user who creates hate-pages on Misplaced Pages desurves to stay unpunished. That is a hate page which's only intention is to humiliate another user. May i say, that by creating this page Digwuren humiliated only himself. M.V.E.i. 16:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
After my block will be over i could wright even a funier page on you and your friends, but i wont do it, because unlike you, i dont have time to create a whole page just to humiliate somebody. The really funny thing is that the things Petri said, which you gave links to, are completely true. The rest you added, where you widely allowed youeself to use imagination, just shows your hate to him, nothing else. Again, you humiliated only yourself. M.V.E.i. 19:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
The reason there are few references is that in the initial stages of the compilation, it was intended for a private map of Petri Krohn's weird ideas. Know thy enemy, as the old Romans said. I only started adding external references when I thought it might be of wider use -- and somebody not familiar with his history might consider his advocating some of the weirder ideas -- such as the "Bronze Soldier as a place of worship" -- unbelievable otherwise. I believe, however, that pretty much everything is traceable to actual Petri Krohn's quotations -- with the possible exception of the semiartificial "In the beginning ..." cutoff, which I borrowed from Roobit. Nevertheless, I can support even this choice.
By the way, you've still not pointed at anything particularly wrong about this article. As long as you limit yourself to making vague accusations of 'ridiculing', your opinion in this matter remains worthless. Digwuren20:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Thats the whole thing, you've taken real facts and you showed them as rediculous once, except adding compliments towords Stalin, but that Petri never said. And about the Red Army, for many, they are god, at least for all of those that were turned to slaves by the Nazis. Ask any Jews from Auswitz, or every Polish that was sent to labour camps. Read any book of a holocaust survivor, and in every book you could read how the people waited for the Red Army, and how the people were happy when the Red Army came. The Red Army saved the world. Who didn't want the Red Army to arrive? Those who collaborated with the Nazis, those who were Politzeis while the Nazis were in control, those who during the Nazis felt high because of them being ethnicaly close to the Germans. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Who didn't want the Red Army to arrive? Maybe those who had got taste of freedom under Stalin(deportations and executions) before. World is not black and white.--Staberinde15:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Exaclly, the world is not black and white, so you can't denie that the Red Army saved the world. Stalin is a criminal, and nevertheless, this was not what the Great Patriotic War was about. Nobody in the USSR liked him, but not for him the people were fighting. They were fighting against occupation, against those who burned their houses and took their lands, against those who came to destroy. During the war people didn't even think about Stalin, even people who were perviously hurt by Stalin went to fight against the Nazis for the red Army (like the father of my father, who was a war-hero fighting for the Red Army against the Nazis, thought his father was a peasent killed by the NKVD at 1930, on fales ocusations of "anti societ propoganda). So as you can see, real-freedom lovers didn't like Stalin, but they knew Hittler who openly wanted to turn them into slaves is much worse. M.V.E.i. 16:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
There was good saying about that how Soviet and German occupations changed, rough translation: "one robberer saved us from another robberer". I do not deny that Russians had full right to fight aganist Hitler, but that did not give them any right to occupy baltic states at first place(which btw was done by Molotov-Ribbentrop pact), kill their political and cultural elite, and then after war continue occupying for 50 years.--Staberinde19:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Wow wow, for those 50 years of "occupation" the Baltic states were technologicaly improved and rebuilt. I'm not in favour of occupation, i think it was not fair what was done to the Finns, but about the Baltic states, if USSR wouldn't occupie them then Germany would, USSR couldnt alow itself to make this mistake in the long run. The Soviet soldiers were not "robbers", the NKVD, yes, but the once who were hurt by it the most were the Russians themselves.
I know it's a kind of shock, but has anybody told you that Germany was in no position to occupy anything after the WWII? Digwuren20:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
That i said about the Pre-war time, the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact? That is the time i was talking about. M.V.E.i. 20:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Explain what exacly doesn't make sense. M.V.E.i. 12:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah, at one sentence you say how nobody liked Stalin etc, and in other one you already start justifying his actions, interesting why I am not suprized at all. And that "technological improvization" is classical example of soviet propaganda. Pre-war Estonia was at Finland's level, currently it is still far behind even though economical growth at last few years has been extremely fast.--Staberinde20:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Finland back then was not very developed, now they are a modern state (and must i say, a beautiful one, by the photos i've seen, but that i belive it always had). Anyway, as part of the USSR, in the 60s and 70s it was more developed then Finland because then it was the "Golden Era" of USSR. It had an economic crash in the 80s, which continued in the 90s, but that all the USSR-CIS had. And the fast economic growth comes not thanks to the Baltic governments but to the natural proces of "stabilization", it happens in the whole CIS. And another thing about Finland, don't forget that World War Two never touched her territory, that helped her to develope nice and fast (I'm talking about the war itself, not about the Ice War). M.V.E.i. 20:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
You might be interested in the summary of occupation damages at Estonian SSR. The damages were not qualitatively different wrt other Soviet-occupied territories. Digwuren20:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Russia, Ukraine and Belarus had much more damage in them. M.V.E.i. 20:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I already have 4 new articles i will upload after my block expires, 3 about Russian rock (about 3 bands) and one about the Russian Culture House in Lvov. What Soviet demege? During the Tsar all the residents of those states were peasents who were Slaves of the Tsar and his gang, while the Soviet regime turned USSR, and esspecialy those three countries into an Empire, and gave everybody a chance to get education. The Cheka/NKVD really were sadists who didn't want to work so they invented fictional enemies, but the Soviet method is actually exelent. M.V.E.i. 11:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
A question, all of you who supported me being indefinitely blocked, have you made my user page as your Home Page or are you on guard to see me say something you could go and complain about at the administrators page? M.V.E.i. 17:58, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hhh while i'm blocked iv'e got nothing better to do in Misplaced Pages (nevertheless, iv'e got 4 new articles written on my computer), and i didn't like them making a hate page against Petri. The new DDT cd is out now, now that's interesting (the previous one was one of their highlights, i wonder what the new one is like)! M.V.E.i. 17:50, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Orphaned non-free image (Image:Novorossiya.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:Novorossiya.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).
If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot02:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
At the time it was the only-map that was available, but since then someone added a self-made map of the area, so the one i uploaded can be deleted. M.V.E.i. 13:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Zinchuk.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Ricky81682 (talk) 19:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm kind-of blocked now so i cant write there. Anyway, its fair use because it's a promotional photo from his 12 Guitars Of The Master tour. I used it because i didnt find a public domain to use there. M.V.E.i. 22:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Bi-2.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. MER-C09:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok sorry, you just seem to be interested in Russia so i took you for Russian. I'm just filling this category i've created, Russian Wikipedians. M.V.E.i. 19:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
MVEi, no one is doubting your best intentions but please understand that it is easy to make an error when judging another person's ethnicity in general. Most importantly, Russian users may or may not want to be listed in such category for various reasons such as unwillingness to be judged as pushers or Russian POV, cosmopolitism, etc. It is sufficient to create the cat, announce it and give users a chance to add the cat to their page themselves. Please self-revert your addition of the users to the cat. TIA, --Irpen19:57, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
From now on i will be more cerfull, sorry for the mistakes. But the thing is that the category is new, i'm shure that not many know about this announcment page, so thats how i try to notify the users of its appearance. M.V.E.i. 20:07, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I dont refuse to stop vandalism. Ok i'll stop adding people to the category. I still don't anderstand why people didn't like me doing this, but anyway, i'll stop. M.V.E.i. 22:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
And please read what i responsed down here to the user Alex Smotrov. M.V.E.i. 22:37, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
But it's a new category how else would people know about it? When a friend here edited my user page, i loved it, and i know that if someone would help me with the categories thing i would love it to. I mean, people who don't want to have this category will delete it, but people who wanted but didnt know about it will be thankful. I set here a long time searching for people who fit and it wasnt easey, and in Israel, wher i live, it's already 1:26 at night, and now i get scandals. I dont think it's fair! M.V.E.i. 22:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I dont refuse, i responsed to you once i've seen your messege. I didn't think it bugs people that much, i thout it bugs only a not-Russian person being added to the category. I responsed to your messege once i've seen it, and the catigorisation, only a few minutes later i understood that i was also blocked. I didn't even know the rules about it, i didn't think i was doing sonthing wrong i thought i was saving people work, i mean, why else i would spend hours till 1:36 at night by Israeli time if i wouldnt think i'm doing sonthing good? I really didnt want no harm. M.V.E.i. 22:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Please also understand that the block wasn't meant to punish you for your intentions, which were certainly good, but to minimize further damage until it's clear that you understood what others have been pointing out to you, and until you stop adding the categories. Irpen and Míkka suggested other ways of "advertising" the newly created category. If you feel so strongly about it, you can draw other users' attention to your category on their talk page, and let them add it, if they wish. In general, it's "Keep Your Hands Off My User Page" and many users are sensitive about this. There are some guidelines under Misplaced Pages:User page. ---Sluzzelintalk22:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
M.V.E.i, if you promise not to add the controversial category to people's user pages then John or me would immediately unblock you.
I, personally, do not like the new category and rather have it deleted. The reason that it is not helpful for the Encyclopedia and potentially can be quite divisive. We already have Babel userboxes. People who has native level of Russian language are probably belong to Russian culture in some way. The way you have added the category seems to put people with vaguely "pro-Russian" point of view. It makes very easy to canvass pro-Russian users into any editorial conflict. I think it is wrong, editors should act as individuals rather than large discipline parties. That is why we do not have categories like Category:Republican wikipedians or Category:Wikipedians supporting abortion or Category:Communist wikipedians. There is T1 criteria in WP:CSD, I think it should be applied to categories as well. Alex Bakharev05:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Not having such categories is certainly not of any help against canvassing. This rationale doesn't go. Digwuren10:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Umm… can we say "promise not to add any category to users' pages"? Even if the category was nice and proper you cannot simply go and tag other users' pages, in my opinion it's uncivil ∴ Alex Smotrov05:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
This is your last warning. The next time you upload an inappropriate image, such as Image:NotGivinUp.JPG, you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. This also applies to Image:Anti-Vandalism.JPG and Image:Honour.JPG. You re-uploaded these presumably copyrighted images after being warned about it, and you mislabeled them as {{cc-by-2.5}}. Sandstein 18:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
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