Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:25, 13 August 2007

Additional statements before the case was accepted

Statement by User:Briangotts

Clerk note: This appears to be a response to this user's having originally named as a party to the case. This user was subsequently dropped as a party by Ideogram, who filed the case.

I don't know how I got lumped into this baseless and frivolous attack. I never said that Allegations of Israeli Apartheid should be deleted, to my recollection; in fact, I was the one who moved it to that name. None of the diffs provided appear to be edits of mine. I can only assume that I have been included because I generally oppose efforts to insert anti-Israeli POV and OR into articles; this should shed a very disturbing light on this particular request for arbitration. I also never said that all of the various Allegations of X Apartheid articles should be deleted or kept. I judge these articles on an individual basis. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC) As a side note, while I've had cordial relations with Jay on-wiki, I have never heard of or communicated with any of the others. It looks like Ideogram lumped together a bunch of editors he doesn't like in an outrageous display of bad faith. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 15:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Ideogram compounds his abuse, while ostensibly in the process of apologizing for adding me to this arbitration, by accusing me of a "meaningless vote" which "disturbed him." I reiterate that I find his conduct in this matter offensive and contrary to the principles of WP. Disagreement with a user's vote is not a proper motive for dragging them into an ArbCom proceeding; nor is being "disturbed" by them (as I am disturbed by Ideogram's conduct). His accusations that I fail to assume good faith ring hollow when it was he who haled me before ArbCom; he is now apparently also "disturbed" my my defense of myself and my conduct. --Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This is starting to get a little silly but since Ideogram keeps addressing me in his section I feel I should respond here (thought it would probably be easier to follow if I responded directly in his section; not sure what etiquette is on that). The reason I don't respond substantively to his charges is because I don't appear to be involved in any meaningful way with them, therefore I will leave it to others to respond as their consciences dictate (and they appear to be holding their own). The only charge Ideogram appears to have leveled against me is that I voted on an AFD in a manner that disagreed with him, and I don't intend to apologize to that. What he chooses to view as my attempts to "discredit" him are my reasoned responses to his bringing me into this RfAR, which I view as an entirely baseless personal attack. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 20:08, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by marginally involved User:MastCell

There is a problem here, and I think ArbCom is the best venue to handle it. The issue is not one of content, nor of which articles should be kept or deleted, but one of behavior and disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point.

Allegations of Israeli apartheid has been nominated for deletion 6 times, but has not been deleted. A number of other "Allegations of apartheid in..." articles have since been created and expanded, in many cases by editors who had argued for the deletion of the Israeli article as a POV fork. User:Sefringle, who has repeatedly argued for deletion of the Israeli article as a POV fork (and even nominated it once himself), has said that: "You clearly don't understand why we created other apartheid articles... Since these articles cannot be balanced on their own, the only way to balance them is to create similar articles about other countries, thus making the attack page have less effect since country X isn't the only one being alleged of being an apartheid state." Jayjg is correct in his earlier response: I don't know who Sefringle is, or what he means by "we". Maybe he's using the royal "we". But regardless, at least one editor is creating articles in protest because he disagrees with an AfD outcome.

Those articles, in turn nominated for deletion, have provoked intensely bitter discussion, accusations, and disruption. A full-blown edit-war is currently in progress at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid, for example.Perhaps a bit over-dramatic. Well-meaning AfD commenters who object to "Allegations of apartheid in XXX" are generally admonished that, instead of commenting on the article at hand, they should be advocating "systemic solutions". In context, I take this to mean that the articles and AfD's for "Allegations of apartheid in XXX" are being used to try to drum up support to delete Allegations of Israeli apartheid. That's kind of the definition of disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point, valid though that point may be; worse, these other articles and AfD's are being turned into a battleground over which editors with strong POV's on both sides are waging a scorched-earth campaign.

Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. On an issue as contentious as Israeli-Palestinian relations, we may never escape some level of combativeness. Still, what is going here needs to stop: articles and deletion debates are being used to fight an unrelated battle. Note that I think ArbCom would need to examine a much wider range of parties than those listed by Ideogram above; any solution, to be useful, would need to be applied universally and not to "one side", and there's poor conduct enough to go around. I urge ArbCom to look again at this situation and the behavior of the involved parties, because it's intensely disruptive and divisive and, given the complexity and size of the dispute and the stature of involved editors and admins, I think ArbCom is the only authority with a reasonable chance to effect a meaningful solution. MastCell 17:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by User:Nagle

I haven't been involved in the new articles mentioned above, but I've had editing conflicts in recent months with Jayjg (talk · contribs) regarding Hasbara, Separation program (Israel), the old Israeli Apartheid article, Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, and a few others.

We are now in the midst of several edit wars which are disrupting multiple articles. Some form of action is required to solve the problem.

Jayjg has a history of arbitrations in this area:

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/HistoryBuffEr and Jayjg (January 2005) Remedies: For the period of editing restrictions neither HistoryBuffEr nor Jayjg may remove any adequately referenced information from any article which relates to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Doing so may result in a 24-hour block imposed by any administrator. In the case of Jayjg, unblocking himself will be severely dealt with. ... For the period of editing restrictions edits by either HistoryBuffEr or Jayjg which are not referenced may be removed by any user. In the event the reference given does not support an edit made by either of them it may be removed after notification to them and an explanation made on the talk page of the article. ... For the period of editing restrictions, edits by HistoryBuffEr and Jayjg which violate them may be removed by any user. Repeat violations may be sanctioned by an adminstrator by a short ban (up to one day for intial violations, up to a week for repeat violations).
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid (September 2006) Remedies: All involved administrators are admonished not use their administrative tools without prior discussion and consensus, and to avoid using them so as to continue an editing dispute. Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur.

It seems to be necessary to take corrective action about once a year to keep this editor on track. --John Nagle 18:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by ChrisO

I'm not surprised to see that this matter has resulted in a request for arbitration. Although it involves content issues, the present conflict fundamentally centres on user conduct. I'll try to offer a reasonably neutral summary of events for the benefit of the ArbCom. Apologies in advance for the length, but I hope this summary will avert repetition by other contributors and provide enough detail to help the arbitrators to decide whether they want to take on this case.

This is a sequel to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid, which took place a year ago concerning the article now called Allegations of Israeli apartheid (AoIa for short). The conflict has its roots in a disagreement between the current editors of that article (I am not one of them, for the record) over the notability of AoIa. Despite the Commitee's earlier ruling, the editors of AoIa have failed to resolve their dispute. Instead, they have been responsible for starting a multi-article flame war involving hundreds of editors, dozens of articles and deletion reviews and a great deal of bitterness on all sides.

In concluding that earlier arbitration, the Committee directed that "Discussion of global issues which concern use of "apartheid" and all polls shall be at Misplaced Pages:Central discussions/Apartheid with subsidiary dialog on the talk page of affected articles". The global issues were discussed intensively on that page between June 2006 and November 2006 without a resolution being found. From mid-November 2006 to March 2007, discussions became sporadic, with no discussion at all between March and July 2007. Intensive discussions resumed in mid-July 2007 but still seem to be deadlocked.

During this period, AoIa was unsuccessfully nominated for deletion on five separate occasions (25 July 2006 - speedy keep, 8 August 2006 - no consensus, 30 March 2007 - keep, 19 April 2007 - no consensus, 26 June 2007 - speedy keep).

In March/April 2007, while AoIa was going through its fourth AfD, Urthogie and Jayjg, two Middle East-focused editors who have been heavily involved in editing and discussing AoIa and oppose its existence, began creating and developing a series of "Allegations of apartheid" articles. A second tranche of similar articles was created by Urthogie and three other users following the failure of the sixth AfD of AoIa. The articles created by Urthogie were as follows:

• Allegations of Brazilian apartheid (27 March 2007)
• Allegations of Australian apartheid (now deleted) (27 March 2007)
• Allegations of Islamic apartheid (now merged) (27 March 2007)
• Allegations of American apartheid (now deleted) (4 June 2007)
• Allegations of Chinese apartheid (13 July 2007)
• Allegations of French apartheid (14 July 2007 - Bastille Day, no less!)

The following articles were created by three Middle East-focused editors with a history of prior involvement in the AoIa dispute:

• Allegations of Saudi Arabian apartheid (6 April 2007) - Jayjg
• Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba (was Allegations of Cuban apartheid) (12 July 2006) - Briangotts
• Allegations of Jordanian apartheid (now deleted) (17 July 2007) - Chesdovi

Two further articles were created by Theo F, a France-focused editor, and Bleh999, who seems to focus mainly on generic military-related articles:

• Allegations of Northern Ireland apartheid (now Segregation in Northern Ireland) (22 July 2007) - Theo F
• Allegations of Puerto Rican apartheid (now deleted) (22 July 2007) - Bleh999

The creation of these articles has sparked a wide-ranging controversy that has lasted for several months. It has resulted in numerous highly contentious deletion debates involving (at the last count) more than 250 individual editors. A notable feature of these debates has been the involvement of a bloc of around 15 Middle East-focused editors who have consistently voted to delete AoIA but keep or merge all the other "Allegations of apartheid" articles. This has significantly affected the dynamics of AfD discussions on these articles, as there seems to be no equivalent or consistent anti-"Allegations of apartheid" voting bloc. Opposition to the apartheid articles has come mainly from a disparate group of editors who are involved in articles related to the country discussed in each individual article, but who are not focused on Middle Eastern articles.

The motives of the editors involved in creating and voting en bloc to keep "Allegations of apartheid" articles (other than AoIa, which they almost all want to delete) have been highly controversial. Sefringle, who is one of the editors in this bloc and the initiator of the 26 June AfD on AoIa, has stated that "You clearly don't understand why we created other apartheid articles. All allegations of apartheid articles are meant to antagonize people of that culture; the Israel one included. They are all POV forks. Their existance on wikipedia is proof that WP:NPOV does not apply to article titles or afd's. Since these articles cannot be balanced on their own, the only way to balance them is to create similar articles about other countries, thus making the attack page have less effect since country X isn't the only one being alleged of being an apartheid state. There is nothing encyclopediac about accusing somebody or some culture/country/religion of apartheid. It is all an attempt to push a POV."

Opponents of the apartheid articles have asserted that they have been deliberately created as part of a systematic effort to either force the deletion of AoIa through a bulk deletion of all "allegations of apartheid" articles, regardless of individual merit (per comments left by anti-AoIa editors in many AfDs, e.g. , ), or to provide "balance" by creating multiple POV forks to "neutralise" AoIa (per Sefringle's statement quoted above).

I strongly recommend that the Committee should take this case to determine whether, as many editors have alleged, there have been wilful and systemic policy violations in the creation and development of these "allegations of apartheid" articles and the subsequent deletion debates. I also recommend that, if the Committee takes this case, there should be an immediate injunction on the creation or deletion of any further "allegations of apartheid" articles (except for those currently at AfD) in order to prevent the dispute spreading any further. Finally, I recommend that the Committee should consider whether Israel-related articles should be put under article probation (similar to the measure taken in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo) in order to prevent disputes like this getting out of hand in future. -- ChrisO 18:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by marginally involved User:Jossi

I would argue that many articles named "Allegations of XXX apartheid" are POV magnets, and it is not surprising that when these are brought the AfDs process, the POV magnet intensifies. Bringing this issue in front of the ArbCom is not a solution. Rather, editors should look at the content of these articles, titles of these articles (that in my opinion are not neutral), and assess if it would not be better to incorporate any useful content of these obvious WP:POVFORKS, into other articles in which it can remain stable alongside competing viewpoints. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Also note that there are many possibilities that have not been explored by editors, such as summarizing these articles into Allegations of apartheid and redirecting the "Allegations of XXX apartheid" for specific countries, which may be violating system-wide NPOV. Unfortunately, in the current atmosphere, I doubt that these issues can be explored as there is not much good-will around to do that. Nevertheless, I still believe that ArbCom involvement is unnecessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

In response to User:Poppypetty comment below, and me being one that commented "keep all or delete all", I would like to clarify that the comment is valid: there is no reason whatsoever to single-out one specific country in these allegations, when there are allegations about other countries as well. For example, I did not know that there are so many countries in the world against which these type of allegations are leveled. The subject is encyclopedic, but needs to be reflected correctly in Misplaced Pages. My proposal remains to re-direct to Allegations of apartheid and summarize all article about specific countries there. In that manner, we have proper NPOV rather than WP:POVFORKs. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by User:Targeman

I was heavily involved in only one of the listed Afds, the one about "allegations of apartheid in France". As a newcomer at the time, and not knowing any of the users involved and totally unaware of the underlying conflict, I judged the article on its merits. Being familiar with France, I was astounded at how how misleading the title was and how the article put words into the mouth of its sources. At first, I dismissed it as another college essay written at 3 a.m. by a student desperately short of solid sources. My dissection of every single one of those sources at the AfD was met by deafening silence. However, once I realized the article was written by editors who had no knowledge whatsoever about France, I began to wonder. A quick research showed beyond doubt that the same editors penned several similar articles on countries they did not know, and yet insisted upon dealing with complex social issues in those countries. That plus the unwillingness of the said editors to address specific problems with their article made it impossible for me to continue assuming good faith. --Targeman 19:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

• Addendum. The fate of all the AfDd articles in this series relies solely on the willingness of voting editors to read the sources. Many of them don't, as the articles are carefully engineered to give a very favorable appearance at first glance. However, anyone who has taken the time to read the sources will have to conclude that their meaning is invariably distorted beyond recognition. The authors of the series are far too intelligent people not to realize this. Deleting several of these articles will only encourage the creation of others to replace them, all under the flamebait title of "Allegations of apartheid in _". And it's anybody's guess which county will receive this unwanted attention next time. Google will decide. And as always, editors familiar with the targeted country will be left rolling their eyes at the apparent naïveté of the authors.

This huge wast of time and resources has been going on for so long and the process is so transparent that the ArbCom must intervene. We are facing a systemic problem of hopelessly skewed articles lashing out at random countries with the excuse that since the title is about "allegations", it can insinuate whatever it pleases. As others have pointed out, this phenomenon will not go away, ever, if left alone. How many mastodontic AfDs and how many pissed off editors does it take to start taking the problem seriously? Abuses such as this (as I said before, the authors of this series have completely worn out my AGF) are the reason why serious and honest editors leave Misplaced Pages. --Targeman 14:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by marginally involved Poppypetty

I am very marginally involved but as a French wikipedia contributor and sysop, I have a strong opinion on it. I just have a few remarks on these users. It is clear in my opinion that a group of pro-Israel users have created a whole bunch of "articles" following failed RfDs for Allegations of Israeli apartheid. This is a clear violation of WP:POINT. Then, if you look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid, you have a good number of votes "keep or delete them all". This shows that there are many users whose only goal with these articles is to obtain the Israeli articles deletion. These behaviors are clearly unbearable on wikipedia. I am also wondering why all articles related to anglo-saxon topic (American, Australian and Northern Ireland apartheid) have been deleted when the other ones are kept, but I guess this isn't the matter of the ArbCom. I can really see this debate heating up on this wikipedia as well as other wikipedias. I think it would be a good decision by the ArbCom to judge them right now. Poppypetty 22:29, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I really don't understand why the first two arbitrators to express their opinions refuse to see that there is a very clear WP:POINT violation by creating the whole serie of articles just to get the Israeli article deleted. This is a behavioral problem and the ArbCom is relevant for that kind of issues. Poppypetty 08:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Leifern

Since I will undoubtedly eventually be named as one of this alleged cabal bloc of editors with some hidden agenda, let me weigh in with the following points:

• The discussions on the various "allegations of apartheid" articles are indeed getting tedious and repetitive, but they have some relevance to how Misplaced Pages deals with a number of issues. I think they need to run their course
• In the meantime the biggest damage is that editors who could be productive in other areas are sidetracked by this. (As an editorial aside, it is a bit curious that some editors are hell-bent on deleting articles entirely on the basis of how they perceive the motivation of those who have written them).
• Accusations against one party or another are sure to be met by counteraccusations, and I'd venture that the Arbcom could spend any amount of time working it all out and still not find any strong evidence of bad behavior beyond what you'd see in dozens of content disputes throughout Misplaced Pages
• In short, I would encourage the Arbcom to simply dismiss this petition, admonish the parties to behave, and let it all run its course. I think we're close to fatigue, anyway, and this will lead to a cooling-off period. --Leifern 23:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by greg park avenue

Kończ Waść, wstydu oszczędź - a very known line in Polish from the Deluge - a Henryk Sienkiewicz' novel, and it means literally this: Get this job done, Mister, don't make me suffer my shame no more - said by someone named Kmicic (one time Polish noble and adventurer), after he lost the duel in the sun (sabres) to someone named Pan Wołodyjowski - another novel by the same author. I think this line applies here. In Wikijive it means - "speedy delete" or get another POV. greg park avenue 00:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete all or rename "allegations" to "analogy". Most arguments for deletion is, for example: the Allegations that Bush is Hitler are notable because there are many hits on Google, etc. It doesn't make sense, right? We cannot allow to introduce such allegations into Misplaced Pages, because of an evident insult. Now, if we switch to analogy, the author of the "analogy" article must prove that such an analogy of apartheid South African style is valid. It means: 1. there is a valid analogy to race or etnic segregation ONLY, 2. it's a government's policy ONLY. I think it applies to three countries currently on the list of "allegations" - Israel, France and Saudi Arabia, but the latter one isn't documented yet. greg park avenue 18:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by 6SJ7

As has been noted, the facts referred to by Ideogram represent a content dispute. It is a somewhat complex content dispute, and it is certainly a "mess", but it is still a content dispute. If Misplaced Pages had a process for "content arbitration", this would would probably be a prime candidate, as the preferred methods of consensus, discussion, mediation etc. have not done the job to date -- but that process does not exist.

What does exist are numerous AfD's filed by several editors, despite attempts by myself and others to discuss this whole subject as a unified whole, on the centralized discussion page, without the distraction of nominations flying every-which-way. (I notice that the article regarding Saudi Arabia, having survived its AfD, now has a merge tag, so I guess the nominations never end.) I suppose that if the nominations had all resulted in "delete", this arb request would never have been filed, but instead we have some keeps, some deletes, and at least one merge, and now a DRV for one of the deletes, because the AfD was closed in a really improper manner. So the usual Misplaced Pages process is doing what it is supposed to do when some people want an article deleted.

As I just hinted, there have been some "conduct issues" associated with the recent part of this whole mess, but they are not part of this case at present. If this case is accepted, it can all come out then. The same is true for the inaccurate and misleading statements in some of the comments above, and I have to single out ChrisO's statement here, because what is introduced as a "reasonably neutral" summary turns out to be anything but. Again, it's not necessary to go point by point now -- if the case is accepted, it will all come out in the evidence. 6SJ7 01:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Zocky

On one hand, we have allegations in books and opinion pieces by Nobel peace laureates, a former American president, etc., comparing institutionalized treatment of Palestinians (defined by ethnicity, or as some would say, race) by Israel to the practices of South Africa before 1992. On the other, we have (probably correct) allegations of religious discrimination in Saudi Arabia, and more or less random usage of the word "apartheid" as a generic word for "racial discrimination" for non-institutionalized racism in places like Brazil, USA and China. We should probably have articles about all of those things, but the case for treating them all as the same kind of thing is extremely thin. Insisting on giving them all the same kind of title clearly has more to do with wikilawyering than any encyclopedic concerns.

I believe that most of the participants are well informed about theses issues, and therefore I find it hard to believe that all of them are doing their best to give priority to the interests of the encyclopedia. Especially worrying is the statement quoted above, where Sefringle bluntly informs us that the purpose is to create similar articles about other countries, thus making the attack page have less effect since country X isn't the only one being alleged of being an apartheid state.

If this is a correct description of the wishes of the whole "group", it's worrying for two reasons: One is the preparedness to engage in disruption over several pages and waste large amounts of everybody's time to counter perceived damage made by an article. While this is enough to raise many an eyebrow, I find myself astonished by the fact that this user(s?) believes that reporting well known, highly publicized opinions of globally known politicians constitutes an attack page.

I'm not sure what ArbCom can do about this, other than slap some wrists. But I do wish that these editors would stop pushing this, for the sake of not damaging the standing of their political cause, if not for the sake of reducing the overall quantity of drama. Zocky | picture popups 04:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: Any articles that are kept need to drop the "allegations" part from the title. Calling an article Israeli apartheid or Brazilian apartheid makes the existence of apartheid in those two countries no more automatically true than calling an article aromatherapy or radiesthesia makes those valid scientific disciplines.

Statement by Lothar of the Hill People

Simon, the user misbehavior is violating WP:POINT. CJCurrie uncovered a clear example of this which he's posted on the "Centralized Apartheid" discussion page:

Readers might be interested to view the page as it was originally created by User:Jayjg, on 6 April 2007: . It was quite obviously a quote-farm, and unsuitable for the project.

Now, please consider the status of Sex segregation on 22 March 2007, with particular reference to the heading "Saudi Arabia": . Consider also the current status of Sex segregation in Islam (a title that may be somewhat problematic, though I'll leave that aside for the moment). A stunning coincidence, as I think you'll agree.

Given that "Saudi apartheid" was created with material cut-and-pasted from other Misplaced Pages entries, perhaps it won't be too unreasonable to suggest that the content should be re-merged into the relevant entries.

The creation of a series of articles, some of which are so poor they have been quickly deleted by Misplaced Pages, and all given the dubious title "Allegations of..." is a clear WP:POINT violation and it's being used to give various individuals an "all or nothing" argument ie either delete all the "allegations of" articles (including the Allegations of Israeli apartheid bugaboo) or they all stay. Urthogie, Jayjg and others creating articles in the hopes that they will be DELETED (ie deleted simultaneously with all other Allegations of... articles) is acting in bad faith and a violation of WP:POINT. In debates on deleting the apartheid articles he repeatedly bring up Allegations of Israeli apartheid. For instance:

Targeman, there seems no good reason to "take off line" only one "Allegations of apartheid..." article; perhaps all of them should be taken "off line" at the same time. Jayjg (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC) "

By the way, why don't you bring up Allegations of Israeli apartheid in this regard?

Either the accusation of "apartheid" is meaningful, in which case they're related, or the accusation is a mere rhetorical device, in which case the articles should all be deleted,?

From what I can see the ongoing creation of these articles is disruptive to Wikipeida and editors have been unable to resolve the conflict at the "Centralized discussion" which seems to stretch back several years. With the level of disruption, and the systematic patter of WP:POINT violations, someone in authority needs to step in and sort it out and at the very least put an end to the disruption and POINT violations. If editors don't like the Israeli apartheid article they should deal with it directly rather than disrupt Misplaced Pages with a series of clones in hopes of rallying opposition against all of the articles including (of course) the one they don't like.

Statement by Humus sapiens

• The ALLORNOTHING accusation fails because weak articles (such as Allegations of Jordanian apartheid) were deleted - and rightly so.
• The POINT accusation fails because WP has series all over the place. Was it a POINT to follow Anglophobia with Francophobia, Indophobia, Sinophobia, Russophobia, etc? I don't think so.
• Conspiracy theories and personal attacks theoretically should fail, but unfortunately in practice we don't see much enforcement of that.

Of my colleagues I am asking for consistency: if an argument works in one case, it should work in others as well. I'd love to see the problems raised in Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Apartheid and related pages comprehensively resolved, but I don't think it is realistic to ask ArbCom do it for us. ←Humus sapiens 11:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by User:Mackan79

I believe the issues are largely behavioral, and that ArbCom should take the case. Essentially, a pattern of clear WP:POINT violations by primarily two users, followed by an insistence that these violations be ignored in the name of civility, has escalated into serious stress and disruption across diverse areas of Misplaced Pages. Despite numerous efforts to resolve this, these discussions have been stunted by the same WP:POINT violations, and their use in negotiating over the original. Extensive discussion shows little promise of resolution, and probably a need for intervention, if only to acknowledge the serious policy violations, deal with them, and put things back on track. Some evidence on behavioral issues include:

Clear WP:POINT violations and related disruption by User:Urthogie

Although much of the evidence has now been deleted, the fact that the articles created by Urthogie are a WP:POINT violation is beyond dispute. Exhibit A would have to be Allegations of Australian Apartheid, created by Urthogie on the same day as the Allegations of Apartheid template, and literally beginning, "Some go so far as to allege that there is racial apartheid in Australia." I only recall this because I mentioned it to him at the time. Unfortunately, the deletion of some of the worst articles also deletes much of the related evidence, but remaining comments include those throughout these discussions such as here and here. I'll note: Urthogie states that the articles have been created not to get AoIa deleted, but rather to show the absurdity of political rhetoric. While perhaps slightly more understandable, the aim is equally pointish and ultimately disruptive in terms of Misplaced Pages policy.

Clear WP:POINT violations and related disruption by User:Jayjg

Jayjg's defense throughout has been that he only created one of the articles, but his editing and commentary have been central. In regard to WP:POINT, first see his vote in the last AfD for AoIa, compared to his vote now on Allegations of French Apartheid. Specific actions then include repeatedly trying to enlist outside editors for deleting AoIa, demanding "systemic" solutions from editors not familiar with Israel/Palestine articles , and arguing for the deletion of all related articles despite his votes and arguments to keep. . This was followed by a continuing refusal to discuss with anyone who mentioned WP:POINT, while still accusing other editors of WP:POINT violations himself. Substantive editing issues included edits obscuring original synthesis by combining entirely unrelated claims as if they are responding to each other , a pattern seen throughout the articles.

In sum, we have a number of highly problematic actions which have contributed to a large disruption across Misplaced Pages, and which continued efforts have not been able to resolve. I might note particularly Jay's edit here, in which he combines the incivility, attempt to enlist editors, acknowledgment that he opposes the entire set of articles, and states that editors "seem to be coming around to a more reasonable approach." ArbCom can't decide content, but I think this goes well beyond that; it's really no different from an editor vehemently opposed to Allegations of state terrorism by the United States going and creating an poorly sourced "series" on that. However we feel about this type of article, I'd think we should establish that this is not the right approach. Mackan79 13:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved user:Vitalmove

So if I understand, jayjg and his friends tried to delete the Israeli apartheid article. I disgree with their attempt but the article survived so that dispute is moot. Now they have created other "apartheid" articles. This is what is being challenged. I don't see a problem with creating additional "apartheid" articles. First of all they don't take away from the Israeli apartheid article. It's not as if reading the Jordanian apartheid article is going to cut into the credibility of the Israeli apartheid article. Second, if there is a Jordanian apartheid (I have no idea if there is), I think wikipedia should have an article on it. The more articles the better in my opinion. I'm definitely not pro-Israeli in any way and really didn't like jayjg's behavior in another matter, but I have to side with him and his friends on this one. --Vitalmove 16:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved user Abe.Froman

I am new to this discussion. I think that if notable, verifiable citations can be found to justify articles on segregation within different nations, articles can be made about it. This discussion has veered into a debate over suitability of the word "Apartheid." Personally, I think segregation is a better word, and 'Apartheid' used outside its South African frame of reference is contextually meaningless. But "segregation" does not turn heads quite like "Apartheid" does. That said, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If notable sources are claiming a country engages in Apartheid, editors can make an Apartheid article for that nation. Abe Froman 17:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Clayoquot

The arbitrators' decision in the Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid case included, "If negotiation is unsuccessful, interested parties are required to enter into good faith mediation regarding the matter." Essjay had stated that, "voluntary mediation is simply not going to work for this one." If ArbCom chooses to reject the case, I ask that they give the parties a strong push towards mediation.

Statement by only marginally involved User:Carlossuarez46

Allegations of American apartheid is currently at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 July 30. Therein I made the following comment in endorsing the deletion:

• As a further note, only slightly off topic, it is also about time that we consider "apartheid" in the same vein as "cult" as a WP:WTA, even if a notable someone or lots of notable someones uses the term to describe the event, we don't need to adopt the alleger's words as a title in the article, unless we want to have articles such as this or Allegations that you-know-who is the worst president, Allegations that guess-who is the most overrated celebrity, etc., for which several notable people could be found to have made such accusations.

I urge the arbcom to accept the case to make the point that WP is not a battleground nor a forum to parrot the accusations of others nor must WP adopt the accuser's words to create POV article titles. The word "apartheid" outside of its South African context is just a lightning rod word (like "cult"), it is beneath an encyclopedia to adopt such a word in article titles. We do and should have articles Race relations in Fooland and therein certainly put "Famous person X accused the Fooland government's treatment of non-Foos as apartheid"(citation), that would be the neutral way of doing it rather than making the accusation the article's title. Aparently, no amount of cajolling the authors of these articles and those who seek to delete them will result in anything but edit wars, harsh words, and repeated visits to Afd, DRV, and then back here.

The arbcom should use its bully pulpit to focus these efforts toward building the encyclopedia. Carlossuarez46 19:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by marginally involved User:MartinDK

As noted by the arbitrators below this case is a mess. It is also, however, largely a content and deletion dispute. What complicates it is the fact that most of these articles were created in response to the Israeli article which, as noted above, has survived at least 6 attempts at getting it deleted. My personal view on this was noted on the AfD related to Allegations of French apartheid. The situation has been escalated for no reason because the keep side, in particular it's strongest proponents, chose to create a series of equally inherently POV articles rather than enter into a civil discussion or seek mediation/dispute resolution and accept the outcome of such a process. This situation has now been going on for a while and continues to resurface. It is not going to go away and any attempts to reason with those involved solely to prove a point has so far failed. Specifically, nothing useful has come from WP:APARTHEID. ArbCom should accept this case, not to settle the content dispute but to determine to what extend WP:POINT has been violated and put an end to the disruption and abuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground. Such a case would very much be within ArbCom's jurisdiction. MartinDK 12:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Addendum I second the plea below to reconsider your decision to reject this case. WP:POINT violations are not content disputes. We can argue over the title and even the existence of the article without ArbCom getting involved but to effectively stop the entire process by making blatant all or nothing demands is what WP:POINT is all about. ArbCom has previously accepted cases involving disruption disguised as content disputes and I do not see why this case would be any different, on the contrary given the history of the dispute and the determination by the keep side to continuously halt the entire process this is an even bigger ArbCom case waiting to happen. This will not go away by it self. Too many editors have now realized what is going on. MartinDK 13:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by semi-involved User:G-Dett

Actually I'm quite heavily involved, having successfully nominated two of these articles for deletion. But I'm not officially listed as an involved party, hence the subheader.

As has been pointed out, the “allegations of apartheid” series is a serial WP:POINT-violation conceived and deployed in bad faith. That is, the chief creators, contributors and defenders of the series are all on the record saying they believe “allegations of apartheid” to be a wholly inappropriate subject for Misplaced Pages. Having failed to delete Allegations of Israel apartheid in a total of six AfDs, they have created this series in the hopes of harnessing the ensuing disruption to leverage the deletion of the Israel article. This leveraging is carried out in two ways. Firstly, when editors in each of the target areas (Brazil, France, China, and so on) express their disgruntlement and bewilderment at the appearance of highly tendentious quote-farm articles in their area of interest – articles, moreover, apparently written by Wikipedians with no knowledge or interest in the area who are merely data-mining sources for instances where the word “apartheid” is used – it is coyly suggested that they redirect their ire to the Israel article. Examples of this “recruitment” are here and here. Secondly, to editors who support the Israel article and object to the creation of a series of sister articles (as well as the ostentatious original-research navbox template connecting them) on original-research and notability grounds, it is broadly insinuated that the authors of the sister articles will be happy to abandon and delete them in exchange for the deletion of the Israel article.

In addition to such broad hints and insinuations, the campaign of deletion-by-other-means requires no small amount of double-talk: on the one hand, the fundamental illegitimacy of articles on “allegations of apartheid” must be maintained in order to justify the demand for a “comprehensive” deletion; on the other hand, the encyclopedic merits of the individual “sister” articles must be extolled and marveled at during AfD debates, in order to justify the keep votes needed to retain them as bargaining chips. User:Jayjg has been particularly audacious in such double talk: in the AfD for the Israel article he described it as “inherently POV and unencylopedic," and went on: "Like a cancer, it grows without structure or value, harming the body around it, and sapping it of strength better used in meaningful articles. It needs to be excised." When the France article (written in large part by him) came up for AfD, by contrast, he voted "speedy keep," describing it as "well-written and encyclopedic." He voted "strong keep" for the Saudi article (created by himself) describing it as a "well-sourced, notable issue." On the very same day that Jay lamented the existence of "allegations of apartheid" articles and expressed his hopes that Misplaced Pages will "mature" to the point of having a "higher standard," he voted "strong keep" on Allegations of Chinese apartheid – again largely his creation – and describes it as "approaching some of Misplaced Pages's best work." Thus citing the need for "consistency," Jay is offering to exchange the deletion of Misplaced Pages's "best work" for the removal of a "cancer." This is either an exceedingly opaque notion of "consistency" or a rather transparent WP:POINT violation; Occam's razor leads me to conclude it's the latter.

Lastly but perhaps most importantly, it should be stressed that most of the “sister” articles (a dozen or so have been created, of which some six remain) are in gross violation of WP:NOR and WP:N. They have been researched by monkeys typing “apartheid” into search bars, and written by robots assembling the search results into quote farms. One thing all sides agreed upon with regards to the Israel article was that the article had to be about the apartheid allegation itself – not the issues animating it, which it made no sense to examine through the lens of a loaded metaphor. The Israel article is chock-a-block with secondary sources telling us about the analogy – its history, who makes it, who refutes it, why it’s so controversial, etc. The sister articles have by contrast no secondary sources, no evidence or indication of the analogy’s notability. They consist entirely of primary sources where someone uses the word “apartheid” or “apartheid-like” in passing while discussing this or that policy. The articles simply quote the sources at length talking about different issues, and present the quotations as if the issue were apartheid. (In most cases, the one quoted rhetorical use of “apartheid” will be the only appearance of that word in a several-hundred-page book). Each primary sources is distorted in this way (magnifying a rhetorical figure into a thesis), and then these distortions are joined together and presented as if they’re discussing a common topic, “apartheid” or “the apartheid.” So in the “criticism” section of the “French apartheid” article, for example, we are told that “Some have argued that the claims of apartheid in France are a consequence of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism among some French Muslims, and not just government policy...Some French Muslim women also see the "apartheid" as being internally imposed by the French Muslim community." If you read the sources cited, however, they do not refer to "claims of apartheid" and then rebut them in the way clearly suggested here. They simply talk about self-segregation among Muslim immigrants, and they use the metaphor of apartheid for this. In other words, the two sides here are not debating apartheid, or claims of apartheid, or anything of the sort; they're just debating the failure of immigrant assimilation, and in doing so each side happens of its own accord to reach for the "apartheid" metaphor (a fairly common metaphor, as these articles unwittingly demonstrate). Wikipedians have set up this phony back-and-forth over "the apartheid" in order to foster the illusion that there's actually a topic here, a set of "allegations of apartheid" recognized as an issue and criticized by some, rather than just a bunch of disparate voices that have had occasion to use the metaphor of apartheid at some point or another in discussing various things (Algeria, immigration, multiculturalism and secularism, the headscarf controversy, etc.) For another example of this mirage of continuity being created around the illusory topic of "the apartheid" (examples are literally everywhere), turn to the China article: after hearing that source A compares the occupation of Tibet to "apartheid," we are told that "these tensions have spilled over into the tourist industry," and then we're given source B's observation that hotels in Tibet "practice a form of apartheid," with Chinese hotels overcharging foreigners and Tibetan hotels catering to tourists but not Chinese settlers. No reliable source connects source A's observations about oppression and tyranny to source B's about commercial balkanization: the "spilling tensions" are pure original research, of course, but more importantly, the very idea that there is some continuity of topic here, some stable notion of "apartheid" being pursued from source to source is more than OR – it's a calculated illusion. What we actually have here are unrelated passages with chance metaphorical similarities merely being juxtaposed to create the illusion of a subject moving between them.

This is what I mean when I call the articles "hoax articles." I have been unsparing in my language, but the passages I've given you are not anomalous; they are the basic building blocks of the articles in question, and frankly it is a form of trickery. Passage after passage does exactly this: sets up a relay between a series of unrelated block quotes, between which is passed the baton of an incidental metaphor. Go to any sequence of two block quotes in any of the articles and you will find this pattern, this technique of the phantom baton. If you object to it, you're offered the "comprehensive solution" (you excise your cancer, I'll throw out my best work). If you point out that the Israel article actually has a recognized topic – there are hundreds of reliable secondary sources describing the controversy surrounding the "apartheid" meme as it's used in debate about Israel – the distinction is waived aside – ignored, not rebutted – and you are darkly accused of wishing to "single out Israel."

This is the pass we find ourselves in. It may have begun as a content issue, but it's metastasized into a behavioral issue, with enormously disruptive consequences. It is time for Arbcom to act.--G-Dett 23:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Teofilo

As the creator of Allegations of Northern Irish apartheid, I feel concerned by the present arbitration. I created Allegations of Northern Irish apartheid on 22 July 2007. The article's title has been later renamed into "Segregation in Northern Ireland" and I agree with the renaming. See why on that article's talk page. While French/France related articles are one of my focuses, please do not see me as French-focused "only". When I write about Northern Ireland, I try to be as much Northern Irish-focused as can be. Teofilo talk 11:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Reconsideration Statement by User:Cerejota

Having read the reasons for rejection given by the majority of ArbCom members and the sheer number of statements, from involved, semi-involved, and completely uninvolved editors, I kindly urge the ArbCom to reconsider.

I and many others feel it cannot continue to be ignored by ArbCom:

1. This is not a content dispute - There are content disputes around these articles, however, ArbCom should not rule over them. The key issue here is a behavioral one. The ArbCom should not allow the existence of editing disputes to distract them from ongoing behavioral issues.
2. Community resolution of content disputes is being disrupted - Almost all attempts to focus on editing content, on raising article quality, are met with personal digressions, circular arguments, and the worse kind of WP:SOAPBOX stuff imaginable.
3. ArbCom will have to deal with this sooner or later - its relatively mild actions in the previous arbitration only seemed to make matters worse, not better. It is too late to nip in the bud, but there is still time to draw this under control. While I do not subscribe to conspiracy theory, having been in the receiving end of some wanton incivility, and seeing the circular, unproductive environment.
4. The unresolved behavior issues themselves become WP:POINT - With so much back and forth, edit warring, circular arguments, and accusations that never reach formal WP:DR but taint the editing process, the environment becomes so tainted by mistrust, self-reference, and outright gang-like behavior, emboldened by the lack of any serious consequences, that WP:POINT is the talk pages and centralized discussion itself.
5. Serious accusations of WP:POINT must be dealt with - in all of the related pages, AfDs, and history of centralized discussions, there has been a common theme of accusations of meatpuppetry, vandalism, and willful violations of WP:5P policy, along with almost every other accusation imaginable. Furthermore, a number of editors use as an argument all or nothing argumentation that fits the bill of the WP:POINT accusations. This taints the serious, measured discussion that should inform debate. In fact, an involved administrator User:ChrisO was accused in an AfD and DRV of misusing his tools: however, he was not accused formally, just tainted. These types of attacks with a lack of any attempts at WP:DR are precisely why ArbCom should reconsider its running tally, and accept.

I created essay WP:UCEPE because I feel incivility is dealt with too lightly here. How are we supposed to dig sources and perform the task needed to make good content, if one is working in an environment full of incivility?

I do reserve my views on the facts for the future, but for me it is clear we need ArbCom like we need water.

ArbCom: do your job and promote civility. The community obviously begs you.

Listen to User:UninvitedCompany. He seems to get it.

Thanks!--Cerejota 06:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Seconding Cerejota's plea

I would point to the evidence outlined above (particularly by Mackan79 and G-Dett). This problem will continue to rage on and draw in more and more of the Misplaced Pages community as more and more articles of this type get created as WP:POINT. I'm rather surprised by the number of "decline" votes below. If you do not want to take the case, I can fully understand, (it's a mess) but to record your decline positions (in nearly identical terms) pre-empts the possibility for others with the stomach to, to take up the case. It's only going to get worse. Clear messages must be sent that such behavior is unacceptable.Tiamat 10:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Only one diff

Is this a content dispute ?

All or nothing, all or nothing, all or nothing, all or nothing, all or nothing, all or nothing, all or nothing. That's the only answer i get. I can't stand this anymore... I did not take part to the others allegation of apartheid articles debate. It seems that without any help from the outside, no consensus is ever going to be found for ALL the appartheid articles ; That sort of arguments keeps hijacking my work. If not asking for help from the ArbCom, what else can I do ? NicDumZ ~ 11:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess I should feel proud to be regarded as the most quotable proponent of fairness and consistency. It's still a content dispute, though. (Since this was not a formal "statement" I hope it is ok to respond in the same section.) 6SJ7 20:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Fourthing (?) Cerejota's plea

This isn't about content, as Cerejota mentions. It's not about what happens to the allegations of apartheid articles. There are very clear and very serious user conduct issues here in terms of how users have dealt with the existence of these articles. It goes to the heart of Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and don't disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. I would urge the ArbCom members who have voted to decline the case to reconsider. MastCell 15:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreement with Cerejota's plea

Most of the arbitrators that declined arbitration agreed that there is a serious problem, but don't want to deal with it. This is the dispute resolution system we have, and it's ArbComm's job to run it. If ArbComm declines the arbitration, the problem will get much worse. Hasbara Fellowships, sponsored by the Foreign Ministry of Israel, is actively recruiting people for this edit war. . ("You have the opportunity to stop this dangerous trend! If you are interested in joining a team of Wikipedians to make sure Israel is presented fairly and accurately, please contact director@israelactivism.com for details!") This may hit the mainstream press. This has to be dealt with. It can't be ducked. --John Nagle 07:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You are not in agreement with my plea, as you are one of the particularly disruptive and WP:POINT editors. When this hits the fan, even I might get a little crap on me. But you, my friend, are way up there with Uthorgie and Crew (who basically singlehandedly restarted the shitstorm by starting "Allegations of apartheid in x"). Conspiracy mongering (you do it here!) and doing POV forking (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Timeline relating to allegations of Israeli Apartheid), man you name it. Don't throw stones from glass houses... Thanks!--Cerejota 05:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, if the arbitration goes forward, we'll take a closer look at the history of that article in the evidence phase. --John Nagle 17:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Puzzlement: What is this case about?

There are an awful lot of statements being made, but what is this case about? The initiator's statement "How committed are you to your principles?" is not very detailed. I got railroaded through another poorly-defined case, so can someone state what this mess is about? (SEWilco 20:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC))

Mackan79's description above is the most detailed and relevant. Ideogram seems to have removed his more detailed outline of the case. Tiamat 10:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for case acceptance by GRBerry

WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND is the user-conduct based policy that is in question here. It says in relevant part "do not create or modify articles just to prove a point." I believe that the articles were created to make a point, and the creation and continued defense of these articles is being disruptive. This question is clearly within ArbComm's responsibility. Centralized discussion, if anything, has made the problem worse, not better. User conduct RFCs are just going to be another forum for the ongoing factional fighting. Mediation is impossible with factions this large. There is no reason to believe that any other form of dispute resolution will make things better. Unfortunately, diffs of clear admission of disruption are extremely unlikely to be found, as many of those involved are experienced Wikipedians who should know better than to do this, and do know enough not to admit on Misplaced Pages to intentionally violating policy. While I don't expect to find such diffs, as an admin that never saw this issue before it made it to DRV, I think the duck test is adequate evidence that there is problematic user conduct. Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Allegations of Chinese apartheid has gathered some personal attacks on ^demon, who closed one of the recently closed AFDs. The battle is not getting smaller, it is getting worse. GRBerry 14:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree fully. Thanks!--Cerejota 05:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by mostly uninvolved KWSN

I looked at the DRV linked by GRBerry, and quite frankly, I agree with him. My "involvement" in the case is participating in one DRV discussion, and only commenting once in it (it was endorsing the deletion, I have nothing to hide). If the case is accepted, I ask that all users that created threaded comments in response to other user's !votes be included, whether the comment was for keep, overturn, endorse, delete, or just a general comment. On a side comment, Ideogram's statement could have been better, which caused a lot of puzzlement among users. Kwsn 23:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to the ArbCom by alithien

I think I agree with Arbitrators comments stating it is not their role to set-up this matter but it is the community to resolve this.
Nevertheless arbitrators recognize the mess and ArbCom has been installed to solve disputes and is requested by many editors to accept the case.
Why not accept the case and speedily enforce a well-thought list of users involved and uninvolved to make this case ruled by wikipedia community as a whole, with eg a debate followed by proposals sanctionned by a vote ? Alithien 10:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Belated statement by CJCurrie

The ArbComm should certainly investigate this matter. This is more than simply a content dispute; serious allegations (pardon the phrase) have been raised about experienced Wikipedians engaging in serial WP:POINT violations in order to delete a page they disagree with. My own view is that these allegations have a strong basis in fact, and that the matter properly falls under the ArbComm's scrutiny. CJCurrie 02:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Sefringle

WP:POINT accusations have gone far enough There are clearly many editors on wikipedia who hate Israel, as obvious by the existence of the Allegations of Israeli apartheid article. It is also clear that they are unwilling to compromise, and will only agree to what is forced upon them. The main problem with wikipedia is that any article enough wikipedia editors like for one reason or another will not be deleted no matter how bad it is. This article is liked because many wikipedians (the ones who voted keep the Israel one, delete the others in the allegations of apartheid afds) hate Israel. Misplaced Pages policies like WP:NPOV, as a result no longer apply, and although it may not say so on the WP:NPOV article, it has been reduced from a policy to a guideline.

We (meaning the zionists and supporters of Israel) find the Israeli apartheid article insulting. It is an attack page against Israel, and it was created by anti-zionists to inflame us; it is a POV fork designed for that purpose, and to say that we are scum, and to convince readers of that article of that. No matter how much we may try to doctor it up, and make it NPOV, we will be unsuccessful. There is only one thing we can do to fix that article, and that is to dilute the attack against us, by pointing out that other countries are just as bad. Thus we are trying to NPOV the article by creating similar articles about other countries, and the more countries, the more neutral each article becomes.

However that won't work for one reason. The Israel haters saw that, and want to keep the article bias, so they started nominating them for afd's and voted delete in record numbers; many of the voters have never edited articles on this topic, but suddenly show up to get the other articles deleted, claiming they are bargaining chips to get rid of the Israel article, which never should have existed if WP:NPOV was an enforced policy. Yes, they could be viewed that way, but the main reason for their creations is that they are necessary to keep the article NPOV. Suddenly our attempts to create a neutral wikipedia are WP:POINT violations. This is ridiculous. WP:POINT is being used to say "screw the minority". If this is what WP:POINT is, WP:POINT should be deleted.--Sefringle 02:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)