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Monicasdude and undiscussed major overhaul

Monicasdude, the wiki is having big problems right now so I'm not going to get into it much today, but please step back and consider what you're trying to do. I don't know if you're new to Misplaced Pages or what, but I can tell you that if we have to go to arbitration on this you will not come out ahead. Total overhaul of Featured Articles without any discussion is not acceptable. You invoke the "be bold" statement on the FA page. Did you read further along in that statement:

But please note: be bold in updating pages does not mean that you should make deletions to long articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories . In many such cases, the text as you find it has come into being after long and arduous negotiations between Wikipedians of diverse backgrounds and points of view. An incautious edit to such an article can be akin to stirring up a hornet's nest, and other users who are involved in the page may react angrily. Even so, the editing of gross grammatical errors is welcome.

I did read some of your edits. You're a capable writer. However, you introduced probably more factual errors than you fixed and, overall, your version is far from an improvement in my judgment. I think you have the Dylan knowledge and overall literacy to improve this article, but it will have to be on a statement-by-statement basis, with Talk.

I won't be back on Misplaced Pages for the rest of today and maybe not at all tomorrow. If you persist in the revert war without discussion, your work will be reverted immediately on my return and arbitrators will be called in. (Also, why don't you have a User Talk page? It's your choice but it's another iffy kinda thing, you know?). JDG 17:34, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

You didn't read the revision before you reverted it. You don't cite any errors in the revisions. Bob Dylan's public career is not a complex and controversial subject, and you don't cite any examples of revisions which violate the policy section you quote. You're not an admin, and your demand for "statement-by-statement" pre-review of contributions I might make -- to say nothing of your declaration that you are going to premptively revert any contributions I may make until your "return" is an unmistakeable demonstration of your bad faith and refusal to abide by community rules. Dispute resolution has been contacted. It's plain from your comments to other users here that you lack respect for opinions which do not conform to yours. My contributions will continue.

User: Monicasdude 3:40 PM EST 30 May 2005

"You didn't read the revision before you reverted it." Wrong. I did read it before reverting. "...you don't cite any examples of revisions which violate the policy section you quote". Your main policy violation is that you're doing a major overhaul of a FA without discussion. "It's plain from your comments to other users here that you lack respect for opinions which do not conform to yours". I have been with Misplaced Pages since early `02 and have successfully collaborated with dozens of editors on hundreds of articles, some of them recognized as among the best. I show respect where it is due. You say you have "contacted dispute resolution". Who?. When?. Let's get on with it. JDG 01:22, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I haven't read the changes very closely so I don't know which version is better. However, there's no Misplaced Pages policy stating that changes to a featured article need to be approved first. It's wise to discuss changes and form a consensus of course, but there is no requirement that every change to an FA needs to be debated first. If that was the case, we might as well lock featured articles. Rhobite 02:20, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not saying every change needs to be "approved" first. I am saying (and I think it is the mainstream Misplaced Pages approach) that a featured article carries a serious built-in weight of consensus which should be respected, and this respect should take the form of discussion *before* substantial changes. This discussion is not necessarily an "approval" process by some self-appointed article-guardian (if more people liked Monicasdude's version I would instantly bow to consensus). Monicasdude has done none of this. He simply bulldozed in and totally re-arranged an article of very high quality. Perhaps no single policy provision is being violated, but any responsible admin would be asking Monicasdude to slow down and discuss. Normally I would fully engage here and there's little doubt continued intransigence by Monicasdude would lead to some form of intervention having the net result of restoring the article. However, I'm very ill and cannot devote the time/energy. So it's so long for now, fellas. If I get a respite (damn chemotherapy), I'll be back to fight for the right. Those who are now editing off of this new, worse version should bear in mind that a large battle is probably ahead, two or so months from now, one that will likely result in a giant reversion. So if you want to make sure your own efforts count you might think about resisting M's overhaul now. JDG 19:12, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article has been edited hundreds of times since the "Featured" tag was applied, often substantially, with hardly a dozen subjects discussed on the talk page. That's more than an edit a day. What's being preached now is not what's been practiced.
I'm not going to sling mud back. I think that if you look at the series of edits I've made, they consist principally of correcting a significant number of undisputed factual errors (e.g., where the Zimmerman family lived when Robert was born, the name of Dylan's first wife), rearranging discussions of events into chronological order, and removing a number of clear violations of the NPOV policy (often recitations of lyrics with accompanying subjective praise). I've filled in some gaps; more remain, especially in the post-1975 discussions that I've yet done very little with (e.g., Bob and Sara Dylan's divorce). I believe I've improved the article; I've to hear any good faith disagreement on substantive points. Monicasdude 00:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"The article has been edited hundreds of times since the "Featured" tag was applied, often substantially, with hardly a dozen subjects discussed on the talk page." But don't you see? Nearly all of these edits were small and measured (the substantial ones mostly *were* discussed here), often small enough so that a good edit summary served to justify them. What you've done is something else entirely-- a total all-at-once overhaul..."I think that if you look at the series of edits I've made..." No, many of your edits are complete reworkings of entire paragraphs. For instance, the "Tom Paine Award" paragraph. In the previous version it was a full, detailed treatment giving the reader some real flavor of "back in the day". Probably thinking you're being tight and concise, you chopped it to two bare sentences evocative of nothing (yes, these are subjective judgments but, for my money, where there is a one-on-one dispute, tie goes to the FA version as it carries the weight of consensus) I have allowed a good number of my own edits on other articles to be canceled for this very reason... Now, about factual errors. A ten second glance brings up these questions: 1) Your version says Dylan's forebears were "Lithuanian, Russian and Ukranian". In fact, no scholar or writer I'm aware of has taken this up as an issue to be verified, so we are left with Dylan's own statements, many made in his younger days when he demonstrably fabricated tales from whole cloth. Most of the names themselves clearly appear to be of German-Jewish derivation (Zimmerman, Greenstein, Edelstein, etc.,.) and until some real investigation is carried out, a responsible article can only say what the names look like and what Dylan claims, as did the old version. Yours instead makes an unsupported flat statement;

You're dead wrong here. The information was first presented in Robert Shelton's No Direction Home; Shelton was the only biographer to get a substantial interview with Abraham Zimmerman; he also interviewed Beatty, and David Zimmerman, as well as, if I remember correctly, at least one of Abraham's brothers. The family history is corroborated in Heylin's BTS2, which has additional details from other sources. Monicasdude

What did Abraham Zimmerman say? I have read elsewhere that his antecedents need looking into, and as such the old version is plainly better for now. (JDG)

That you read something, somewhere, that you can't cite is no reason to reject well-sourced, reliable, published information. Monicasdude

You remembered the title of a book! That's quite something. Pray what did the book *say*?? (JDG)

2) Your version says "He quit formal studies in early 1961, heading directly to New York City..." He did not go directly to NYC upon leaving university. There is a documented stint in a Denver dive in this interval and in Chronicles he mentions some extended time back in Hibbing before departing. The old version's "eventually landing in New York City" is accurate;

I probably should have made even more substantial changes here. I let the 1961 date for quitting formal studies stand, because I don't have a rock-solid alternative date. However, there's a fairly solid chronology here. Dylan spent the summer of 1960 in Denver, and returned to the Minneapolis area in the fall of 1960, at about the time the fall semester began. Whether he'd technically quit college at that point isn't clear enough to me, but it looks like his family paid for the fall 1960 semester. At the December/winter break, he finally told his family that he was not continuing in school, then spent the semester break in Chicago. He then headed back toward Minneapolis, but during a stayover in Madison, WI, decided to (finally) act on his desire to try his luck in New York City. He took a well-documented ride with Fred Underhill and Dave Berger from Madison to New York City, arriving January 24, 1961. Documented, in various stages, by Shelton (who bought into some of Dylan's fabrications), Heylin, and John Bauldie. If you put Dylan's decision to quit college in 1961, the only event you can associate it with is his decision to abandon Minneapolis as his home base, and when he made that decision he headed directly to NYC. The version of events you cite looks to be straight out of Bob Spitz, and it's long been discredited.
It would be better to say "Dylan quit college at the end of his freshman year, but stayed in Minneapolis, working the folk circuit there, with temporary sojourns in Denver and Chicago. In January 1961, while heading to Minneapolis from Chicago, he changed course, and headed to New York City." But that change would have been even more drastic, and imposed my opinion on a debatable point (the date Dylan formally quit college). Monicasdude

From this muddle you get "heading directly to New York City"?? Again, after all that, it's clear the old version is nearer the mark. (JDG)

Since the old version is long-discredited misinformation, it should be corrected, not reinstated. Monicasdude

What in tarnation are you trying to say? Your own account above admits there was substantial time between quitting college and arriving in NYC, which is exactly what the real version said. Then you characterize that as "long-discredited misinformation"... At the moment, of the 4 potential factual problems I identified a few days ago with a 10-second glance at your hacks, 3 remain in grave doubt. Johnjacobjingleheimerschmidt what a slog this already is and it's obviously only beginning. JDG 04:24, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your version has Dylan quitting college early in 1961, then going from Minneapolis to Hibbing to Denver to Chicago to Madison to Greenwich Village in the span of about 3 weeks, probably less. And that's dead wrong, and it's long-discredited. As for the rest, your being in a state of denial is hardly reason for anyone to entertain "grave doubts" about anyone's accuracy but your own. Monicasdude 01:04, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh, the old version said "eventually heading to NYC". That's all I'm talking about and it's more accurate than yours. As for the rest, we'll see in a few days who else has grave doubts. Where's Monica? Maybe she can help you see what you're doing here before... I'm starting to think you're an old hand at this. You prolly decided not to have a User Talk page because it would just fill up with people wailing over your evisceration of their work. You can run but JDG

The old version said "He quit formal studies in early 1961, eventually drifting to New York City." And it's wrong. Just a few paragraphs back, you insisted that Dylan went to Hibbing and Denver in January 1961; the Chicago and Madison stays in January 1961 are well-documented and undeniable. Your version of events doesn't square up with the documented record, with interviews with people who knew Dylan at that time, etc, etc. Monicasdude 19:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

3) A sentence in your new "Tom Paine Award" paragraph reads: "Accepting the "Tom Paine Award" from the National Emergency Civil Liberties Committee at a ceremony shortly after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, a drunken, rambling Dylan questioned the role of the committee, insulted its members as overweight and balding, and claimed to see something of himself (and of everyman) in assassin Lee Harvey Oswald." The literal meaning of this is that *all* the committee's members were overweight and balding. The old version's "many overweight and balding members" was good. Also, to my knowledge Dylan said nothing pointing to some sort of "everyman" significance. Where did you get this?;

Another case where I probably should have made even more substantial changes. Dylan didn't insult members of the committee as "overweight"; he did say they were "old" and implied they "haven't got any hair on their head." The version you prefer states that the members of the committee actually were overweight and balding, a factually unsupported generalization. As for the "everyman" reference, that comes out of Dylan's apology/explanation to the committee; he says that "when I spoke of Lee Oswald, I was speakin of the times"; and goes on to claim, rather inchoately, that violent times put violent impulses in men -- in Oswald, in Dylan, and by implication in everyone. Monicasdude

Can't check now, but I distinctly remember "overweight", and in any case the literal meaning of your sentence is just plain wrong. I accept your explanation for "everyman". (JDG)

You "distinctly remember" wrongly, and the transcript of the speech is directly linked from the article. Monicasdude

4) You say "Dylan secretly married Sara Lownds..." Are you sure you're not thinking of his later marriage, which was in secret? I haven't read that Sara was secret in any way...

Then you're poorly read. Dylan concealed his marriage from virtually everyone; no public announcements, no disclosures even to longtime friends. Heylin, in "Day By Day," calls it "secret"; Shelton, in "No Direction Home," said Dylan "kept quiet." Dave Van Ronk tells of meeting Dylan with Sara in December 1965, and not hearing of the marriage; Jack Elliott, as I recall, told a story about asking Dylan about a rumored marriage, with Dylan denying it. The story was broken three months later by Nora Ephron in the New York Post, treating it as a headline-worthy disclosure of a previously unknown event. Monicasdude

So, you are sure. Very good. As I said, we should have been going through like this *before* your massive Save. I've no doubt much of your factual material would withstand scrutiny. Stylistically and thematically, I'm not so sure. We'll see what others say. (JDG)

Your being poorly read is hardly justification for demanding that changes be pre-screened for your approval. Monicasdude

Being a wiseass won't get you too far here. It so happens I hadn't read specifically on the Lownds marriage. There are plenty of other areas in this topic on which I could take you to school. Please respond to the basic point being made here: that your giant overhaul of this FA is against guidelines and should be reversed. JDG 06:45, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is after just a 10-second glance. But I don't want to haggle over this or that sentence. You are simply in the wrong to roll out a massive, undiscussed overhaul to this FA. Please be big and revert yourself and I promise you many of your edits will get in after due deliberation. JDG 01:40, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can I suggest that somebody take on the task of listing the points of difference (besides style) between the 2 versions. I think Monicasdude would be in a good position to present such a list, since he? best knows what is included, but perhaps there is some other party interested enough to do some of it --JimWae 06:59, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

There are three major differences: style, in that I've boiled tsome sections down and tried to maintain a consistent tone; chronology, since I've rearranged discussion to keep events, as much as practical, in chronological order; and NPOV-adherence, where I've removed several blocs of text which plainly violated the applicable standard, and were added to the article without talk activity. It's the latter that seems to have triggered JDG's responses. I've also cleaned up a significant number of minor (and unquestionable) factual errors -- e.g., the number of nontopical songs on Dylan's 3rd album, the date of the "Last Waltz" concert, where the Zimmerman family lived when Robert was born -- and added some linking text to fill in gaps in the chronology. I've also added the major biographies and recordings references to the "Further Reading" section, cleaned up the links a bit, and worked on several of the affiliated pages.

The dispute isn't about the substance of my edits. User JDG has been quite explicit in his comments, in the talk page and his edit summaries, that he is reverting the page not because of substance -- he has made virtually no substantive objections -- but because he demands that editors of this page comply with his own policies regarding editing rather than the standard Misplaced Pages guidelines. Monicasdude 14:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Will everyone please tone down the rhetoric here and in the edit summaries? There is no call for throwing around terms like "thuggery" and "vandalism". Gamaliel 07:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, JDG, do you dispute the substance of any of Monicasdude's edits? If yes, please list the edits that trouble you. If you are only disputing the fact that the eidts were made, and not their substance, then this page should revert to Monicasdude's edits. Steve block 10:56, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Couple" v. "Few"

Minor point, but: The sentence begins "His performances, like his album . . ." There were more than 2 original songs in his live sets then, but only about half a dozen appeared regularly (and not all in the same set, of course). Heylin's "Day By Day" gives some setlists from the period, some have 3, 4, maybe 5 originals mixed in. That's why I think "couple" is a shade too specific, since the main (grammatical) subject is the live sets. Monicasdude 19:44, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're right. Sorry for the oversight.

Christian Conversion

I made an edit earlier about Dylan's pre-Slow Train Coming hints of Christianity, but it was taken out. I think it might be of interest to the reader that the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) and Christian tradition had greatly influenced much of Dylan's work, especially since his motorcycle crash, after which he started to extensively read the Bible. John Wesley Harding in 1967 is stock full of religious stuff, even extrabiblical Christian material (St. Augustine). Blood on the Tracks in 1975 references crucifixion in "Idiot Wind" and "Shelter From The Storm." Desire in 1976, although only cowritten by Dylan (except for "Sara"), contains explicit Christian language in "Oh, Sister": "We died and were reborn, and then mysteriously saved." Also in "Sara," a song about his wife since 1965 (I believe), he mentions those Methodist bells, suggesting that they married in a Christian church, which could explain who personally introduced him to Christianity (as early as 65). And of course on Street Legal in 1978, there is extensive (though subtle) Christian and apocalyptic imagery. Obviously all this information should not go in our favorite featured article, but maybe a brief mention of his pre-1979 Christian leanings. Tix 21:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tixity, I encourage you to stay on top of this page to make sure your work survives the current troubles. As you can see above, Monicasdude has embarked on a very unfortunate, undiscussed major overhaul to a very popular, recognized article and his intransigence has resulted in messy reversions that can't help but endanger the work of more responsible editors. Judging from his past behavior, the current version will soon be knocked back to his private concoction and you will have to make sure your edits survive the jump. As noted above, when I have the time and energy I will be bringing fullblown arbitration to bear on this article. Hopefully after that you'll be able to contribute without worries. JDG 22:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tixity, please note that JDG was the one who removed the edit you're talking about, and that I have restored it each time I reverted the page after his (to my mind) vandalism. Monicasdude 23:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Of course you "restored" it. His edit was made while your version was live, so reverting to yourself brings it back. Tix, it's going to be a rough slog, judging from this chap's out-of-all-proportion self-confidence. Keep it on Watch. JDG 00:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please give your opinions.

Anyone reading this, please review the dispute between Monicasdude and myself (see above on this Talk page and the Edit History) and record your vote below: Do you prefer the version he keeps reverting to, or the one I keep reverting to? We have to get this beyond a one-on-one battle. Mdude carries no more authority than I do, and vice-versa. Neither of us is backing down. Please, we need your opinion. JDG 19:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the long-established version favored by JDG:
JDG  

For Monicasdude's overhauled version:
User:Monicasdude  

Please note that I did not vote in this excessively personalized poll, and that User JDG took it upon himself to cast "my" vote. I do not believe it is appropriate, or consistent with overall Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies, to vote this way. Instead, I would hope that users raise whatever questions they may have about the accuracy and appropriateness of the edits I have made in accordance with the standard Misplaced Pages processes. I believe the edits I made produced a more accurate and reliable article, more consistent with Misplaced Pages guidelines; and that, rather than simply arguing JDG v MD, editors whould engage in the continuous process of improvement. In comparison to other FAs regarding important American musicians, like the ones regarding Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis, the Dylan article was grossly inferior, and while "my version" (which includes recent edits from other users) has reduced the distance, it is still substantial, and much more improvement is possible. Monicasdude 20:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) (Accept no substitutes!)

Informal polling is a time-honored first-tier dispute resolution mechanism on Misplaced Pages. I did not "vote" for Mdude. I listed his username under the obvious position he holds. Mdude is trying to muscle aside all opinion but his own. Do not let this happen, folks. JDG 22:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Only the sith deal in absolutes. I think that there are good parts to them both - the new one has some sections too cut up to even make sense, but the old one did have some unnecessary paragraph structure and crap. Overall, i'd have to go with monica's dudes' one, with some additions from JDG's. SECProto 16:07, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC) Abstain I'm not sure this can be sorted by a poll. Could you not just discuss the veracity of the two versions and settle on a compromise? Steve block 10:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. It's not as though Monicasdude's version has major POV issues or whatnot...a compromise of the two versions would be better. ~~Shiri — Talk~~ 14:05, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I'm thinking of a way to propose this that might have a remote chance of getting Mdude's participation. JDG 15:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Forget the poll. The only way to sort this out is to form some kind of compromise. JDG, do you feel that any material as been taken out or put in? Or this a re-arranging? I did try and compare the two versions, but my monitor is not wide enough! Monicasdude, do you feel you edits have to be 'all at once'? Or are you prepared to take it one section at a time? Dan100 (Talk) 16:39, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Given the amount of disentangling and rearranging that had to be done just to arrive at a reasonably straightforward and accurate chronology (up through 1978; the later period needs major work), it seemed to me more appropriate to make one integrated edit. As the history shows, I'd been trying to make individual changes for a few weeks previously -- only one of which raised any substantive questions -- but that process wasn't terribly efficient.

As a starting point, I'll give a half dozen example of changes I've made, which should be non-controversial, but at the same time demonstrate the serious flaws in the article as it stood. (When I refer to the pre-existing article, I'm generally referring to the article as it stood on 01:37, 15 May 2005, before my series of edits began.)

1. Duluth v. Hibbing. The pre-existing version of the article said Dylan and his family lived in Hibbing when he was born. The major Dylan bios -- Heylin and Shelton in particular -- say that the Zimmerman family lived in Duluth, but moved to Hibbing after Dylan's father contracted polio. The same version of events is found in the Life In Hibbing link I added (coincidentally) this morning.

2. Times They Are A-Changin'. Pre-existing article said the album was almost entirely downbeat/topical songs, with one exception. Actually three nontopical songs on the album, as simple reference to the tracklist demonstrates.

3. Newport 1965. Dylan was not backed by the Butterfield Blues Band. Neither Butterfield nor keyboardist Mark Naftalin played with Dylan that night. Al Kooper and Barry Goldberg did; neither was a member of the PBBB. See http://www.bjorner.com/DSN00785%20(65).htm#_Toc490789042 for backup. A similar error afflicts the report of Dylan's Forest Hills/Hollywood Bowl 1965 concerts, since Dylan did not perform with the Hawks at those shows, but hired two members for his own band.

4. Levon Helm/Basement Tapes. Pre-existing article has Levon Helm rejoining the Hawks/Band at "Big Pink" early in 1967 and playing on the Basement Tapes. Helm actually returned late in 1967 and played on few if any of the Basement Tape sessions. Backup: Clinton Heylin's "Recording Sessions" book; Levon Helm's autobiography. "This Wheel's On Fire."

5. "First explicit protest song in 10 years." The pre-existing article describes the 1975 "Hurricane" this way, and it's dead wrong. Dylan wrote, recorded, and released "George Jackson" in 1971. Backup: http://www.bjorner.com/DSN01885%201971.htm#DSN01980 His last explicit topical songs prior to that were written in 1963, released early in 1964 on Times They Are A-Changin'.

6. "Gospel" tours. The pre-existing article that Dylan refused to play any secular songs while touring to support his "Gotta Serve Somebody" (1979), "Saved" (1980), and "Shot Of Love" (1981) albums. This is dead wrong. Dylan's purely "gospel" concerts were during his three relatively short tours in the fall of 1979, the winter of 1980, and the spring of 1980, ending May 21, 1980. Saved was released on June 20, 1980. Dylan resumed touring on November 9, 1980; during this "Musical Retrospective" tour (a name apparently provided by Bill Graham), he mixed religious and secular music. During the tour, he sang 40 different songs; about two dozen of them were secular. That breakdown is a bit misleading, because he pretty much played the same set of "gospel" songs on most nights, while mixing up the covers and selections from his own older songs. By the last night of that tour, he'd reached a 50/50 mix. See Olof's Files, at http://www.bjorner.com, for backup and details.

That's a representative sample. None of these should be at all controversial; all of them are commonly reported, and rarely if ever disputed. It's a measure of how poor the scrutiny of Dylan article was that the errors were left standing for so long.

There were also a large number of NPOV violations in the pre-existing article; I'll give one egregious example:

"Solid Rock", "Saving Grace", "Pressing On" and "In the Garden" from Saved (1980), plus "Every Grain of Sand" and the title song from Shot of Love (1981), along with the Shot of Love outtakes "Caribbean Wind" and "Angelina", have been recognized by many as among the greatest contributions to gospel music by a 20th century white composer.

This is completely unsourced nonsense, sheer puffery for some editor's favorite songs.

The pre-existing article is laced with highly subjective comments about "masterpieces" and "gems," expositions of favored lyrics (without regard to copyright problems), and downright odd observations (saying that "nearly an entire generation" of Americans memorized "Subterranean Homesick Blues," for example.

The links were weirdly incomplete; the "further reading" omitted most of the major biographies. Several of the subordinate pages -- the discography, some of the individual album pages -- were seriously fouled up. And so forth. I have yet to see any substantive quarrel with my edits; JDG provided a small, superficial reply a while back, but falls back only on broad and unsourced denials.

Monicasdude 19:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is your list of these issues (which are generally not the ones I am most concerned with), your way of giving me an assurance you are ready to work in a spirit of compromise? JDG 19:21, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. It's a direct response to Dan100's question, and should remain threaded that way. I don't accept the subtext of your question, implying that I haven't previously shown an willingness to work in a "spirit of compromise"; you are, after all, the one who reverted the article a dozen or so times without addressing substance. If you have substantive objections, you should set them out, at whatever pace you choose, so that everyone who's interested can address them and determine whatever compromises, if any, are appropriate. Monicasdude 20:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Dan100, Shiri, Steve Block and SECProto. This is how I propose to go forward... Normally I would immediately list side-by-side comparisons of sentences and paragraphs and try to get Mdude to see why one or another should be changed from his version, but this is a big article and just listing the comparisons would take a lot of effort, nevermind the haggling on each one. I don't object to effort, but, as you may have read above, I am seriously ill and cannot sit at the computer for more than about 8 minutes at a time. So to do this right away would be totally draining and I need to keep something in the tank for things like forcing myself to eat, forcing myself into the shower, etc.,. SO, if I can get an assurance here from Monicasdude that he is ready to work in something like a spirit of compromise, I will list one or two comparisons as energy allows and we can take it from there over the next few weeks. What do you say Mdude? JDG 18:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)