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Revision as of 12:22, 22 August 2007

Your edits to Bronze Soldier

Thank you for your interest in Estonia-related topics, but, however, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the events mentioned in these edits? And using international sources, not just Russian or new agencies who picked up the story from Russian sources. Russian sources tend to give very... slanted, perhaps - view on events in Estonia, usually not giving background or omitting critical facts and viewpoints. Russian version of Bronze Soldier controversy tends to differ significantly from international sources. If I may suggest, then an article in The Economist is a good starting point, The truth about eSStonia (mirror). Sander Säde 08:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, as for the Monument of Lihula, there are no German/nazi symbols on that statue, see this image. Afaik, that has been discussed on Monument of Lihula talk page, the Baltic Times correspondent erred - there never was Waffen-SS symbol on that statue. The cross on the chest of the soldier is a Cross of Liberty originating from 1919., before Nazis chose swastika as theit symbol. Sander Säde 08:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you show me a source that confirms this (English language).--Ilya1166 08:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry you were blocked, I was not behind this in any way. I'll try to find a source you asked, which is not that easy - how can you find a source on something that doesn't exist. Looking at the picture might be the easiest way to convince yourself. Sander Säde 08:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well how did editors come to the conclusion that that is not a German/Nazi/SS uniform as media outlets reported? Unless the creator of the monument stated that it is not a Nazi uniform and that it is a Cross of Liberty, it would seem like this is original research. Just from looking at the image it certainly looks like a German uniform with a Nazi Iron Cross, holding a German MP40 to me.--Ilya1166 09:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it is a German heer uniform - but there are no Nazi symbols on it (I think you missed what I was trying to say). The cross is Cross of Liberty, see the image here. Although, that is only what the artist intended, it may as well considered to be Iron Cross (which, by the way is not "Nazi Iron Cross", Germany has had it since 1813). Perhaps you would be happy with the wording "alleged Nazi symbols" in the article? BTW, as an interesting sidenote, Estonia is going to build a Liberty monument, which carries the same Cross of Liberty, see here. I am willing to bet that Russian media will spin it as another attempt of Nazi glorification. And imho that monument is rather ugly anyway, hopefully they'll change it. Sander Säde 09:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes but where did you get the idea that the cross on his chest is a Cross of Liberty rather than an Iron Cross-did the artist specifically state that it is a Cross of Liberty on his chest? Nazi symbols or not, why do you say that it resembles a German military uniform, when you just admitted and it clearly is a German military uniform that he is wearing? Yes I believe the Russian media spins things (all media spins things depending on which country they operate in, western media portrays Russia as a enemy, Putin as an authoratative dictator, "exerting political pressure through energy" when it cuts off gas supplies to its ex-Soviet neighbours after they refuse to pay market prices but want to continue being subsidised by Russia, etc) but they make some valid points, and Estonian media/officials similarly spins issues relating to Estonian-Nazi collaboration/Soviet occupation/Russia issues.--Ilya1166 09:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There is an Estonian source - - which in short says that the Estonian police ordered an analysis from Peeter Torop, Professor of Semiotics in University of Tartu, one of leading European semiotics. He found that:

1. There are no SS symbols whatsoever on the statue
2. He wears the universal German WWII helmet and uniform common in Wehrmacht
3. On his sleeve is Estonian tricolor
4. In neck he wears Cross of Estonian Liberation War
5. It is not possible to say anything about the cross on chest, as it has no details

Sander Säde 10:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, seeing as the creator didn't specify the details and we can only rely outside interpretations and Peeter Torop disputes worldwide media/organisations in saying that the soldier is not wearing any SS symbols, we should include both opinions. Also, I don't understand why you added the sentence Mostly civilian targets were destroyed by the air raid, as it doesn't have anything to do with the topic and seems like bitter, anti-Soviet polemic, and that they were specifically targeting civilians. Civilians were always the most killed when cities were bombed, the bombing of Berlin by the US and Britain in addition to other German cities killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Although killing German civilians was never explicitly adopted as a policy by the Allies, it was obvious that area bombing must lead to large-scale civilian casualties.--Ilya1166 10:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked for 24 hours for edit warring and WP:3RR on Bronze Soldier, an article that had previously dealt with a controversial subject in a balanced manner. Please desist. Promise you will and I'll remove the block. ProhibitOnions 08:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Ilya1166 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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