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Revision as of 18:21, 22 August 2007 editYksin (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,177 edits →[]: if you decide on an article RfC, I'll be glad to help set it up← Previous edit Revision as of 18:52, 22 August 2007 edit undoBenjiboi (talk | contribs)50,496 edits →[]: thanks and replyNext edit →
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:::I agree with the admin at ] that this is not a vandalism issue -- it's a content dispute, which is what mediation is designed to help -- ''if'' both you & 192.250.34.161 can pull back from your anger with each other & agree to undergo that process... ] & all that. If you can't agree to mediation, there's are other avenues of the ]. One I can recommend in particular is an article RfC (Requests for comment), which you can initiate with or without the other editor's cooperation. It can draw more people into the discussion about the article's content issues & help to create a consensus, which right now seems to be lacking on that article. We were able to break a month-&-a-half full protection on ] through an article RfC (see ] for all the gory details). It's important that in creating an article RfC you be able to state both your & the other editor's positions in neutral language. But it's eminently worth it. Hope this helps. --] 17:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :::I agree with the admin at ] that this is not a vandalism issue -- it's a content dispute, which is what mediation is designed to help -- ''if'' both you & 192.250.34.161 can pull back from your anger with each other & agree to undergo that process... ] & all that. If you can't agree to mediation, there's are other avenues of the ]. One I can recommend in particular is an article RfC (Requests for comment), which you can initiate with or without the other editor's cooperation. It can draw more people into the discussion about the article's content issues & help to create a consensus, which right now seems to be lacking on that article. We were able to break a month-&-a-half full protection on ] through an article RfC (see ] for all the gory details). It's important that in creating an article RfC you be able to state both your & the other editor's positions in neutral language. But it's eminently worth it. Hope this helps. --] 17:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
::::P.S. If you do decide to try an ], I'd be glad to help you set it up. --] 18:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC) ::::P.S. If you do decide to try an ], I'd be glad to help you set it up. --] 18:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for the feedback and I'll look at the section you cite to moving to a more appropriate article. I'm sure that won't appease the other editors concerns but if it makes sense to have it there then that's where it should go.] 18:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
:::::I'd rather just do what fixing needs to be done while the gettings good and the article is protected before giving them a new platform to screed at this time in an RfC. I spent hours doing all that research and am less inclined to spend even more time defending it all. For now though just improving the article and finding more appropriate homes for some of the material makes sense. I'm working on a another article but will return to this soonly. Thanks again! ] 18:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

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Template:LGBT Navigation

Some recent Shankbone LGBT photos

Upcoming:

BloomingOUT Gay radio show up for deletion

Afd discussion here

It seems to me that this article is simply an advert for the show without any particularly useful information in it. (Pi 21:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC))

Judy Garland bisexual?

I've just deleted Judy Garland from List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/F-J, where she was listed as bisexual. I read her mainspace article twice, and there's no mention of bisexuality in there. Whoever posted her to the list gave only one reference, a 2006 book by Darwin Porter, Katharine the Great: A Lifetime of Secrets Revealed (1907-1950).

Looking at the review of this book on Amazon.com, I see more than one reviewer has noted that it is based on uncorroborated rumor and gossip. Apparently, Porter's thesis is that Hepburn slept with everybody in Hollywood, male and female (I haven't gone to the Hepburn article to check it out). I haven't seen Porter's book myself; but a quick Google search doesn't seem to turn up any other sources for Garland's bisexuality, other than reviews and mentions of Porter's book.

We know the divine Miss G liked men well enough to marry five of them; I'd be just as happy to learn that she liked women, too, but I'd like to see a reliable, fact-checked source for this assertion. Hollywood gossip just ain't good enough for an encyclopedia, IMHO. I was about to remove the LGBT template from Judy's talk page, but I'll leave it there until others have a chance to look at this matter too. What do y'all think?--Textorus 20:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I saw a TV programme a few years ago where someone who knew her when she was young said something about Garland having affairs/an affair with women/a woman, and getting into trouble with film studio peope. I can't really remember, certainly don't know any reliable sources, and chances are it was just gossip, but it might be worth a further look. --Belovedfreak 21:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, her bisexuality is addressed in Judy Garland: The Secret Life of an American Legend, by David Shipman. The New York Times gives the book a very good review, and even mentions that her bisexuality was well known in Hollywood. Put her back in or leave her out. But it is verifiable, which is the only criteria for Wiki. Jeffpw 08:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

DYK process?

Anyone know anything about the DYK process? I've just created glbtq.com and think it could qualify. Help? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty simple. Just list a short (approx. 200 characters) hook - something like "...that glbtq.com is an online encycolpedia?" (but more interesting) - at Template talk:Did you know under the day that the article was created. If other editors think the nomination is problematic in some way, they'll comment, otherwise, it will most likely be listed some time in the next few days. Carom 03:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
How does this sound?
glbtq.com says that Joris-Karl Huysmans was gay. Yet see . Maybe the biography that the person refers to is wrong?Zigzig20s 07:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I've just done a pretty thorough Google (and Google Book) search on Huysmans. Most biographies don't say he was gay. However, a couple do. And furthermore (as far as the LGBT Project banner goes), Huysmans was important in early gay literature - his work A rebours, for one, is an explicitly gay book. And a lot of his work influenced Oscar Wilde. I'm off to edit the article - and I may jot a note to the guy that wrote the glbtq.com article to see if he has any further information. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
That seems like an interesting enough hook. Carom 16:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Yaay! It's going to be on tomorrow! :) :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Congrats - always satisfying to have your work displayed (more or less) prominently! Carom 02:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggested a factoid for DYK for Patience and Sarah for the August 17 date, and it's gone. I updated it again last night, now it's not there this morning. Was it deleted by a vandal, or was it taken out by an admin??Moni3 12:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3

Dude! I'm such an idiot!! It was posted today!! Yay!!! Moni3 13:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3

Aiza Seguerra, Filipina Musician/Actor

Someone not logged in added this lesbian musician to the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/P-T, and I had to adjust the entry and had never heard of her before. In Googling her, there is quite a bit of information, even on YouTube but much of it is in Tagalog, which I don't read or speak. Does anyone read it and can add to her article?

Femslash

The article on Femslash has been prodded a couple of different ways now. My resources for referencing are limited. If others could help out here, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks ZueJay (talk) 04:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly notable. Check out GoogleScholar. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Dev. Added some sources from those searches. Another editor has removed the Notability tag (wheh - the 150 MB of word files on my computer are still femslash and notable), but more sources are still needed. ZueJay (talk) 01:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese?

Can anyone read Portuguese? I've placed the LGBT Project banner on Rosely Roth, but before I add her to the list of people, I'd like to verify that she is a lesbian. Help? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, none of them actually say she is a lesbian, but it's quite implicit. I don't think there can be any doubt about it, considering her entire career. :-P Cheers Raystorm (¿Sí?) 10:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Merging Kinsey Scale & Kein Grid into new article: Measures of Sexual Orientation

There was an untagged request for a merge and a bit of discussion on Talk:Klein Sexual Orientation Grid about merging the Klein grid article into the Kinsey scale article. Rather than that, I thought that the two articles should be merged into a third new article, Measures of Sexual Orientation (as a suggestion), leaving the redirects in place, of course. There is a longish comment by me on the Klein talk page. Right now, one article (Klein) is a stub, the other a start class. Continue to discuss on (to be created) Talk:Measures of Sexual Orientation rather than here? Or where? I'm not sure on process for this kind of discussion. Any thoughts? — Becksguy 16:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There was no discussion on Kinsey scale so I left well enough alone but did comment at Talk:Klein Sexual Orientation Grid that I feel both articles should be developed and simply reference each other appropriately. Other article can then reference either or both for issues that are well sourced. Benjiboi 10:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

French or German speakers?

Jacques Teyssier is on our list of people to be referenced and I'm unable to find reliable sources in English, though Google News does return several results in French and German (scroll through to find the ones that don't have a price or the word "Subscription"). If someone could a) verify that he's gay, and b) verify that he's notable for something other than being Volker Beck's boyfriend, I'd much appreciate it! Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This link is talking about the LSVD's campaign in the UN last year for recognition in the UN (I think). I am certain that this news article refers to Teyssier as the spokesman (Sprecher) for the LSVD. What sort of information are you looking to add into the article (this link is more about the organization than about him) I'll continue looking through these results to see what I can find. CaveatLector 03:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Nothing shows up when combining his name with "homosexuel," "pede" or "gay". Haiduc 03:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The LSVD's website says that he is the treasurer and that he was among two to represent the LSVD at the first conference of the 'year of equal rights' in Europe (which I am not familiar with). And he's definitely queer. His name turns up plenty of results with 'homosexuelle' and 'schwule' on the German google. I'm having a hard time believing that he's notable enough to garner an article for just himself, though. CaveatLector 03:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
That's what I was afraid of. He's somebody's boyfriend, which unfortunately doesn't satisfy WP:N :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Time to prod then? CaveatLector 05:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Why not be bold and merge it into Volker Beck, which could have a brief discussion about his partner? That way people who search for Jacques Teyssier still find out about him (and in the context that they're most likely to have heard of him)... WjBscribe 08:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

LGBT project IRC Channel

Thanks to the amazing help of Siabef (one of my admin pals at es:wiki), we now have our brand new, shiny & registered, official (did I say new?) IRC channel!!! ;-) Simply register your desired nicks following normal irc procedures (it will make things easier in the long run, though it's not a prerequisite), and join irc://irc.freenode.net/LGBTproject. Enjoy! :-) Raystorm (¿Sí?) 12:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Not working for me. It says, "Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because the protocol (irc) isn't associated with any program.".Zigzig20s 14:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
That's weird, because I'm talking with Dev there. :) Perhaps you should download X-Chat before joining #LGBTproject? Check out this tutorial, you may find it helpful. :-) Raystorm (¿Sí?) 14:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Zig, just go here and put in #LGBTproject. It'll be easier for you. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
We are having a blast at the irc channel, just so those people who haven't visited us know (you know who you are). ;-) Cheers Raystorm (¿Sí?) 18:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Aside from once when I should have been in bed asleep, it's always been empty (aside from Dev's away placeholder) when I've been in there. :( --AliceJMarkham 01:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, we've talked about that there Alice. I'm really sorry about it (did you see the message we put for you at the top?), but you being in Australia makes it somewhat difficult to synchronize with the other user's time zones. Keep trying though! :-) Raystorm (¿Sí?) 19:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

(indent reset) Nope. No message there now. What sort of time is anyone in there, anyway? --AliceJMarkham 02:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say 8ish pm, CEST. :-) Someone took out the message, I'll see if I can put it back up. Cheers! Raystorm (¿Sí?) 17:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Graphic Design request

Could someone please take this image and stripe it diagonally with the rainbow flag? Please? Thanks. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey Dev920, if you haven't gotten that resolved yet I found Misplaced Pages:Graphic Lab/Images to improve to be quite helpful. Benjiboi 01:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I am right on it Dev Pi 13:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I have created the new image:

If this is not what you meant just let me know.

I changed the file name so as not to delete the other image, the new one is located at Image:Rainbowghost.jpg (Pi 13:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC))

What in the world is this for, Dev!?!? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It's the ghost of gay cabals future. Benjiboi 15:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol. Thanks ever so much, Pi (is it Pi?). I saw the original image on Crockspot with the caption "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy - Spectres and Apparitions Directorate (VRWC-SAD)", and I thought modified it would make a great gay cabal image. Just thought it might be a good piccie for any future eventualities... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Commons, please! X-D Raystorm (¿Sí?) 16:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 Done :-) - Alison ☺ 17:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Alison!!! ;-D Raystorm (¿Sí?) 17:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyone in LA or Alabama to get Fannie Flagg photo?

Her schedule isn't made public that I can see. She does book signings all over the US. She lives half her time in LA and the other half in Birmingham, AL. Does anyone know how to contact a publisher to get her schedule?Moni3 15:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3

Reassessment from Stub to...?

I'm still learning here, obviously. Not sure how to go about getting reassessed for quality, but can I get a reassessment on 2 articles I've been working on from Stub to a higher class? Desert Hearts and Patience and Sarah? Both are under different projects as well as LGBT - films and novels. Do I need to have those projects reassess the articles for quality, too? Was thinking of submitting a DYK for either or both and one of the first rule says they can't be Stub class articles. What if it's start class under one project and stub class under another?Moni3 16:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3

I've upgraded it. I went ahead and graded it for the films and novels project too, so that you can submit it to DYK. They can change the grading if they feel it necessary, but I think it's pretty clear it's no longer a stub. Kudos on the job with the article, btw. :-) Raystorm (¿Sí?) 17:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Sweet! Yay!! Anyone care to reassess Patience and Sarah? Moni3 18:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3
I went ahead and assessed it too (forgot you had mentioned two articles, heh). ;-P Less clear on this one -Start or B? Would appreciate someone else's input. Cheers! Raystorm (¿Sí?) 18:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, I didn't add the part about the opera, but I think it needs better references, so I'll work on that. Can the B class stay as long as I promise to put better refs to the opera part? And do you (you=anyone) have any idea how hard it is to find references regarding the impact of gay/lesbian books from 1949-1973? I've just about had to give up on my pet Ann Bannon project of the individual book articles. I can't get them past start class. Thanks again, Raystorm! Moni3 18:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3
If I were you, Moni, I would leave it at start, then upgrade it yourself to B when you've reached that point. There's no policy saying someone else has to re-grade :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
See, I didn't know these things. Didn't know I could make all my articles Good Article class if I felt like it...Not that I'm going to do that, but still... Moni3 20:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3
Well, that's actually the one grade (+ FA, for obvious reasons) you can't put for yourself. ;-) It has to be evaluated by another person following the standard GA routine (nomination, eternal wait, corrections, etc...). Although you could grade yourself the article, it's not a bad idea to ask someone else to do it. Main contributors tend to be protective of their babies. ;-) Cheers Raystorm (¿Sí?) 21:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Scrolling tag questions

Heyall, I have a question about scrolling tags and, I guess, scrolling in general. My understanding was that scrolling tags and other templates were discouraged as they didn't work in some web browsers and had readability issues (like interpretive software for sight impaired users, etc.). The Feminists For Life article has the tag "Articleissues" on it to see what I mean. I personally find them hard to use but if they are considered the best option to replace multiple tags then so be it. Comments, ideas, alternatives? Benjiboi 19:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As I've recently been told, scrolling boxes are discouraged for several reasons - readability, accessibility, printing, site mirroring, and browser-compatibility. Plus (IMHO) it looks terrible! :) I've left word with the template-talk page and with some more knowledgeable template creators to have that changed. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I've never seen a tag like thatb here before. It works fine on my browser, but as SatyrTN said, it looks dreadful! I would can it on aesthetic grounds alone. Jeffpw 20:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for the info! Benjiboi 03:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Work, grrl! Is there a "Beautification Barnstar"? Oh - wait - here it is :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Questions about Notability, Etc.

I've been engaged for the past month or so in documenting anti-LGBT hate crimes here on Misplaced Pages. To date I've added the following:

I also added significant information to the Paul Broussard article.

I have several more articles that I'm researching and intend to add. I'm currently working on articles about: Ukea Davis and Stephanie Thomas, Edgar Garzon, Sandetar Singh, Dwan Prince, and James Maestas. I also plan to update the Danny Overstreet article in the same way I did with Paul Broussard.

I'm concerned because twice I've had articles challenged on grounds of notability. An article on the death of Erika Keel, a transgender woman, was deleted entirely. Most recently, the article about Roberto Duncanson was flagged due to notability because, according to the person who flagged it, it was "a routine hate crime-apparently no controversy, no major protests, no new laws."

I am new to Misplaced Pages, but having read the notability guidelines, I'm not sure where it reads that major protests, new laws, etc., are a prerequisite where hate crimes are concerned. If those criteria are to be applied, then most of the anti-LGBT hate crimes recorded on Misplaced Pages should be disqualified. Can someone explain to me that aspect of notability, because it seems a bit subjective.

Is Misplaced Pages the wrong place for this project, or these articles? Where should I put them if not here?

Also, I'd like to improve my articles by adding pictures. However, given my earlier experience, I'm concerned that articles might suffer for violating image guidelines. Most of the images I have of the hate crime victims I've covered are from news articles and are almost certainly copyrighted. I've read the guidelines, but I'm not sure I understand them well enough to avoid trouble.

Can someone explain to me in simple terms the guidelines for using copyrighted images from news articles, and the likelihood that they fall under fair use? TerranceDC 15:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Now the article on Nireah Johnson has been threatened with deletion. After being featured on the front page.
I also noticed someone left a message challenging the notability of that case. The same happened with the article I just published on Roberto Duncanson. Plus the Erica Keel article was deleted entirely a while back. The problem I have is that notability seems to be subjective. I've read Misplaced Pages's notability guidelines and I don't see how the those cases fell short.
Does anyone know the politics of Misplaced Pages very well? It seems that at least some people think that if a hate crime didn't get widespread coverage, wasn't the first of its kind, and didn't inspire new legislation, etc., that it doesn't belong there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that criteria could be used to disqualify most of the anti-LGBT hate crimes already documented there.
The articles that have been challenged on those grounds have all involved LGBT people of color; people whose deaths would never receive widespread coverage anyway, which is the reason I started this project: so they wouldn't not be entirely forgotten. But I am getting the sense that there is some hostility to these cases being documented on Misplaced Pages, and that it the attention the project has received has increased that. My guess is that every article I put up may be "watched" and challenged on some grounds.
I mentioned the other articles I am working on. My sense right now is that most of them will face similar challenges as the articles I've mentioned above.
If anyone has any knowledge of how Misplaced Pages works, or any advice on how to deal with this, I'd appreciate hearing it.
I want to continue this project, as I believe in its importance. But I'm concerned that efforts at Misplaced Pages will be further impeded, and I don't know of a better place for this project to live. I've saved copies of all the articles I've written. So, they could potentially be posted elsewhere.
But where are they more likely to be accessed by as many people as on Misplaced Pages? The whole point was to make information about these hate crimes and these victims accessible to more people in the first place. TerranceDC 20:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
As long as the subjects are sourced to notable sources, such as mainstream newspapers, etc., then it should be fine. However, Misplaced Pages is not a place for memorials (see WP:NOT) so some of what you want to do may fall outside the realm of the scope of the project. Murders happen every day, as do hate crimes. This isn't the place to catalog them all outside of the ones that do not meet the WP:BIO notability standards. I would read up on those policies and guidelines to stop yourself from doing work that may be undone. --David Shankbone 20:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, then there's nothing more for me to do with this at Misplaced Pages. It looks like I picked the wrong place to tell these stories. But then I think that they're all worthy of notice. Somewhere. TerranceDC 22:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Good luck with it. --David Shankbone 22:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Disagree. There's a difference between a memorial to someone whose died with accurate statements and an encyclopedic article with verifiable statements of the events. If you're citing sources (which it looks like you are) then the article might not be a wow fantastic one but it should survive the onslaught of deletionists. Also try not to take other editors tags and edits personally, they might have a point that "most" readers or the "average" reader is going to read the top section of the article (only) and needs to understand from that who the person was and why should they care.Benjiboi 22:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid that the notability requirements are so subjective and arbitrary that the only "safe" material to put on Misplaced Pages is that which has already been so widely covered as to be known to a great many people.
Many of the cases I'm writing about were not widely covered beyond where they happened, and almost certainly didn't get national coverage. In many cases that's at least in part because the victims were LGBT, and in many cases people of color, whose stories would never take up, say, a great deal of Nancy Grace's time, or any other major media outlet.
If I compile the objections to the stories mentioned above, these are the notability requirements I have to keep in mind:
  • Is it the first of its kind?
  • Did it receive wide mainstream coverage?
  • Was it "high profile"? Was the victim "high profile"?
  • Did it cause large protests or demonstrations?
  • Did it inspire new legislation?
In most of the cases I have left to research and write up, the answer to all of the above is "No." And so, if I don't want to spend the hours researching and documenting them only to see them deleted, I probably shouldn't put them here.
I won't go so far as to say that it was a mistake to start the process of adding them to Misplaced Pages. But even upon reading the guidelines, or as many of them as I could get through, I realized that it might be impossible to complete and abide by all of the guidelines.
I'd never contributed to Misplaced Pages before, and I'm sorry it wasn't a better experience. I'm not sure how to contribute at this point and abide by the various guidelines. TerranceDC 23:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it feasible to create an all-encompassing victims of hate crimes article? Power in numbers and all...Moni3 01:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3
I don't know. There's already Violence against LGBT people. But given the level of detail I've been providing, that would make for one very long article, unless it was just short summaries. But what would they link to? Longer articles? That's what I'd pefer, but that brings us back to square one. Most of the articles I'd write at this point would be vulnerable to notability challenges, for the reasons stated above. At this point I could add a dozen or more bullet points (sans links to longer articles) at Violence against LGBT people and let it go at that. But that doesn't tell these stories in the way I'd hoped to do. TerranceDC 02:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it's quite hard to define a hate-crime. There are so many crimes with either a slight racial/sexual motivation behind them or with disputible aggrivation which could be considered hate-crime or standard crime (Pi 10:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC))
Is it possible for me to delete the articles I've contributed to Misplaced Pages thus far? Rather than wait for someone else to do it? I honestly now feel that the time spent posting them here was wasted and that the information is not wanted here and has no place here.TerranceDC 05:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
You need to contact an administrator for that. Or place a delete tag on them. Sure you can't do a subarticle in Violence against LGBT people, and place some of your info there? Cheers Raystorm (¿Sí?) 10:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I've already contributed short summaries all along to Violence against LGBT people - Individual violence for all the articles I've done thus far, but there's apparently nowhere on Misplaced Pages that's appropriate to tell these stories in the detail that I've been telling them. None of them are the first of their kind. None have spawned major protests. None have gotten widespread coverage beyond the areas where they happened. None have spawned new lesgislation, etc. And none of them are recent enough to qualify for WikiNews. At best, I can add summaries and post the full length stories on another site, and use them as citations on the Misplaced Pages article. That's probably what I'll do.
There isn't much more I can do here, since it's likely that the full length articles I've been doing would violate the guidelines here. I read the notability guidelines before I started, but I didn't realize how subjectively they can be applied. I though it was enough if I could cite enough verifiable resources to show that the information recorded was factual. But verifiability isn't enough. The subject apparently has to be somewhat recent and already somewhat famous to qualify for an entry, along with either being a first or establishing other record. By that token, outside of Matthew Shepard, Brandon Teena, Gwen Araujo, Allen Schindler, Barry Winchell and a few others, most of the other hate crime cases on Misplaced Pages probably shouldn't be here either.
Including most of the ones I've added, since none of them meet the standards above. Roxanne Ellis and Michelle Abdill shouldn't be here. Roberto Duncanson shouldn't be here. Steen Fenrich shouldn't' be here. Jason Gage shouldn't be here. Nireah Johnson shouldn't be here. Glenn Kopitske shouldn't be here. Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder shouldn't be here. Nizah Morris shouldn't be here. Ronnie Paris shouldn't be here. Richie Phillilps shouldn't be here. Michael Sandy shouldn't be here. Arthur Warren shouldn't be here. Rebecca Wight shouldn't be here.


None of them would pass muster as far as notability is concerned, at least according to some of the people who've commented on some of them recently. They're either too old or not widely known enough to actually make the cut, depending on who's making the judgment. Most of these people were not notable in life as far as most people are concerned, so they're not notable in death either. And most of the cases I'll be writing about from here on out are even less recent and even less widely known.
None of them are recent. Most of their stories have been buried in news archives that nobody can read without paying to see them. And very few will do that. So, except for a few scattered sites on the internet that arent' all that regularly updated, their stories pretty much fade into invisibility. That's what I'd hoped to change.
So, I've decided to establish a freestanding wiki for LGBT-related hate crimes. I'll post copies there of the articles I've posted on Misplaced Pages, as well as new ones that I'm researching.

(outdent)After looking at Michael Sandy, I hope you don't leave us! That article is absolutely amazing!!!! Extremely well sourced, well written, just beautiful! Please contribute here when the articles warrant it! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Same sex marriage in Malaysia

There is this marriage by Joshua Beh and Jessie Chung in Kuching, Malaysia. Joshua is a male, while Jessie was born male (Jeffrey), now a lady. Their marriage is not recognized by Malaysian law. And i dont think Jessie's sex change is recognised. Would this fall under same-sex marriage? Which category would this fall under. If i created an article on Jessie Chung will it satisfy the notability criteria? Thanks and Good day.. :) kawaputra 06:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

And here's some links:

kawaputra 06:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont think that we can call it same-sex marriage if the state doesnt recognise it. I have lesbian friends who performed a wedding in the UK before same sex unions came in and so their marriage wouldnt have been recognised due to there not being same-sex marriage allowed by law at that time. I think the same must apply in this case (Pi 10:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC))
I concur, in the movie Shotgun the female couple had one who was still transitioning so they quickly married to be legally married before the driver's license was amending to reflect that she was no longer male. The marriage was legal by sttae standards though. Benjiboi 15:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Baltimora

Is Baltimora a band or a person? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe it's a pseudonym of Jimmy McShane (Pi 10:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

"Word is Out"

Does anyone have the Nancy Adair book "Word is Out"? Is her coming out story one of the ones presented? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Gender binary

I just started the article Gender binary. Take a look if you're interested and please peer review. --Ephilei 02:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Confrontational vandal at Transgender

It seems that we have a new, rather confrontational vandal attacking the transgender article and putting some very inflammatory statements in the talk page. I've had to refrain from responding to the most recent remarks because I'm completely unable to form a civil response to them. This vandal has so far been Greghist (talk · contribs) and R jay72 (talk · contribs). Their general claims (all completely unreferenced) are:

  1. Gay men are being forced into sex changes as an alternative to death in Iran
  2. Transgender people are homophobic and are trying to distance themselves from LGB
  3. Crossdressers are gay and only dress to have sex with other men (contradicts existing ref in article)

Perhaps someone from the gay cabal might like to have a quiet word with them? :p --AliceJMarkham 07:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been pretty entertaining so far and (gasp) I've actually learned something when I was trying so hard not to! This reminds me of an idea I had for rainbow burkas which I'm glad I never did. But they would have been fab! Benjiboi 17:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Twinkie defense

Could someone please advise me on this editors mass deletions at Twinkie defense, the editor at vandalism said it wasn't vandalism and I should take it up with mediation which I've not familiar with. Any advice/help appreciated. Benjiboi 16:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know enough about this topic really to assist you, but jeez. Thanks for assuming good faith and being polite. What a prat this person is...Sorry - hope someone else can help you. Moni3 16:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Moni3
It's been given what looks like 10-day Anonymous protection, but the user seems to pop up every couple of day so will probably just return and revert at that time. They don't seem to believe that the Twinkie defense had anything to do with Dan White and has nothing to do with Milk being gay which is why I did the work I did. Benjiboi 17:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Having read both your preferred & the other editor's preferred version of the article (granted that in either case it's still a "work in progress"), I think the other editor 192.250.34.161 (talk · contribs) does have a point about your preferred version being far more detailed about the Moscone-Milk than is necessary. For example, in the subsection Twinkie defense#Background to assassinations, only the first paragraph seems to me to be relevant to the article at hand (Twinkie defense); the rest of it belongs in the article on the Moscone-Milk assassinations. On the other hand, I think the other editor is probably deleting too much -- as Mwelch (talk · contribs) notes on the talk page), "Clearly many felt and feel that homophobia on the part of the jurors made them more willing to buy than they might have been otherwise. So that is valid point." -- & I don't get the impression that 192.250.34.161 recognizes that.
I agree with the admin at WP:AIV that this is not a vandalism issue -- it's a content dispute, which is what mediation is designed to help -- if both you & 192.250.34.161 can pull back from your anger with each other & agree to undergo that process... assume good faith & all that. If you can't agree to mediation, there's are other avenues of the dispute resolution. One I can recommend in particular is an article RfC (Requests for comment), which you can initiate with or without the other editor's cooperation. It can draw more people into the discussion about the article's content issues & help to create a consensus, which right now seems to be lacking on that article. We were able to break a month-&-a-half full protection on Battle of Washita River through an article RfC (see Talk:Battle of Washita River for all the gory details). It's important that in creating an article RfC you be able to state both your & the other editor's positions in neutral language. But it's eminently worth it. Hope this helps. --Yksin 17:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
P.S. If you do decide to try an article RfC, I'd be glad to help you set it up. --Yksin 18:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the feedback and I'll look at the section you cite to moving to a more appropriate article. I'm sure that won't appease the other editors concerns but if it makes sense to have it there then that's where it should go.Benjiboi 18:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd rather just do what fixing needs to be done while the gettings good and the article is protected before giving them a new platform to screed at this time in an RfC. I spent hours doing all that research and am less inclined to spend even more time defending it all. For now though just improving the article and finding more appropriate homes for some of the material makes sense. I'm working on a another article but will return to this soonly. Thanks again! Benjiboi 18:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
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