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	Pedophilia Article Watch (defunct)
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Medical definition

The lead paragraph seems to imply that there is a scientific definition of paedophilia that references puberty, and that an understanding of paedophila as being more generally an attraction to children is "colloquial" (ie technincally incorrect). However, no supporting evidence is given for this assertion. In fact, the link to the Merck site provided does not support the definition.

I don't have a medical background, but wouldn't paedophilia be considered a psychological condition? Assuming this is the case, then what would be relvant would be a concept of "child", which would be variable (for example, culturally). And wouldn't an attempt to give it a rigid definition be considered scientism? --88.111.32.112 18:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The definition of pedophilia is the sexual attraction of people 16+ years of age to prepubescent kids, if that attraction is acted upon, or if it messes up the life of the adult concerned. A lot of legally defined "child molesters" do not fit this description, and many DSM-defined pedophiles never touch a child, which is confusing enough. But the colloquial use discussed goes beyond that. Many jurisdictions have distinct offenses for molesting children under age 11 or so, and a "statutory rape" offense which deals with teenagers, hence statutory rapists in those places would be neither child molesters or pedophiles. Add in the fact that the age of consent varies by jurisdiction from 0 (several African and Asian countries) to 12 (Mexico, others) to 21 (Madagasgar) to infinite-unless-you're-married (several Islamic countries), and it becomes clear how worthless the colloquial term becomes when applied as a universal. In short, I think the colloquial "definition" is utter rubbish, and doesn't belong in the article. (Do we give the colloquial definition of "retard" on the Down's Syndrome page?)

But you're free to call DSM's definition "scientism" if you like. Poindexter Propellerhead 06:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You make a compelling point in favor of removing the "colloquial" definition. I would support it's removal, though I am also willing to consider some re-wording so that it specifically points to a particular culture where such a colloquial term is generally applied. Sadly, there seems to be a priori assumption among certain Wikipedians that prevalent US beliefs are somehow empirically relevant for the rest of the world. Equilibrist 00:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

According to my dictionary (OED), the definition of "paedophilia" is "sexual attraction felt by adults towards children". It doesn't used the word "pre-pubescent" or the word "youth" and the definition isn't marked "colloq.". Now, I'm not claiming that dictionaries (any more than medical textbooks) are divine. But if the dictionary definition is to be rejected or downgraded for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, then grounds for this ought to be referenced in the article.

From looking at the article, it is not clear that there exists a singular and (more or less) incontrovertible medical definition of paedophilia. Maybe there idoes. But, for most people, I think, paedophilia is seen as being primarily about a subject-object relationship, and only secondarily about the age or biological condition of the parties (this is why, for example, attraction between children is not normally classed as "paedophilia"). In other words, its a bit woolly, as are the categories "child" and "adult". There doesn't seem to be an obvious (or, more to the point, cited) reason why doctors should take a different view.

However, let's say there is a singular medical definition, which almost no specialist would dispute. What is still not clear is why this defintion should be considered superior to any other. To say "there is a general defintion and a medical defintion" is not the same as to say "there is a medical definition and a colloquial definition".

Incidentally, I do not think the existence of various laws around the world relating to consent and sexual offences make the general definition of "paedophilia" in any sense "worthless", because they are nothing to do with it. It is an error to think that paedophilia is commonly legally definied, in any case, since what is outlawed is usually behaviour. What I am not proposing is that there should be an alternative arbitrary cut-off point (between when someone may be considered the object of paedophilia and when they may not) in the primary definition. I am proposing that there should be no such cut off point, and the terms "adult" and "child" will do just fine, with more specific medical, legal etc definitions, such as there may be, to follow in the article.

The possibility does occur to me that the medical term "paedophilia" as defined currently at the top of the article may be part of a schema of different categories within what is more generally termed "paedophilia". If this is the case, then the definition currently in the article may be correct, but would be very much subordinate to the general defnition (in the same way that the medical term "schizophrenia" would subordinate to the general term "mad" in an article about madness - the complication that here we have two uses of the same word does not change this picture).

Cheers. --Jamesleg 12:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Child Vs. pre-pubescent

Any concerns over removing the word child and replacing it with pre-pubescent should be adressed to me. In the states a child is anyone that is below 18 (by the way I think this to be correct so you might accuse me of Yankism but never pedophilia), but in many countries the def of a child is below this age. In think pre-pubescent is a term that is multi-national and more scientifically exact. Jmm6f488 06:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It's already addressed to you as much as to anyone else, please see above.

This isn't an arctile primarly about US law, and so US law should not be relevant to the framing of the definition. "Child" is also not primarly a legal term (ie the wikipedia entry "child" does not start with a legal definition), and is perfectly multi-national term. There does not seem to me to be any need, in forming a primary defintion here, for scientific exactness.--Jamesleg 12:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Preferential Or Exclusive Sexual Attraction

According to this article, pedophilia is a preferential or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent youths. What if it's not preferential or exclusive (if an adult is sexually attracted to prepubescent youths as well as adults but more to adults)? Would that person still be classified as a pedophile? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WikiBone (talk • contribs) 02:22, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure about scientifically but yes I would say they are a pedophile. Sort of like a Bi-sexual is still considered gay. Jmm6f488 07:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Pedophilia is a relatively modern term invented by psychologists at the end of the 19th century. At the time they defined it as an almost exclusive, recurring sexual interest in youths that does not extend to any noticeable signs of pubertal development (which would exclude those who fit WikiBone's description). Until then, for all practical purposes, there was really no such thing as "pedophilia". It is hardly surprising that the term causes confusion. Judging by the available historical records, it seems that most adults had a relatively arbitrary attraction span, often descending slightly below the pre-pubertal age, and typically ranging from ca. 8 years to adulthood (adolescent above the ages 8-10 were usually refferred to as "young men/women" instead of "children", a term that was reserved for toddlers). So generally, I would say no. A pedophile, as understood by the psychological criteria, is someone who is "fixated" on children, ie. that most, if not all, of their sexual attention is directed exclusively toward pre-pubescents. The other group is defined as expressing a so-called "situational pedophilia", which is characterized by the ability (as opposed to preference) to respond to children. Just as we would not normally define prison male-male contact (heterosexual men engaging in sodomy due to sexual frustration) as "homosexuals", most situational pedophiles would not normally be described as pedophiles in strictly clnical terms (otherwise, we would have to define at least 30% of all adult populaton as pedophiles!). Equilibrist 12:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about, Jmm6f488. Bisexuals are considered bisexual and homosexuals are considered homosexuals, that's why they are called that. And EVERYBODY has at least some level of attraction towards everyone else. For example, it wouldn't be right for someone who is 100 times more attracted to adults than they are to children (in other words, 1% attracted to children and 99% to adults) to be called a pedophile. Just like you wouldn't call someone who is 100 times more attracted to the opposite sex than they are to the same sex, a homosexual. That's why we say "preferencial or exclusive." Ospinad 19:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality and Pedophilia

An editor reverted without a proper explanation this section added by me. He claimed that the theory that homosexuality is linked to pedophilia is WP:Fringe. "One important bellwether for determining the notability and level of acceptance of fringe ideas related to science, history or other academic pursuits is the presence or absence of peer reviewed research on the subject."

However, "Archives of Sexual Behavior" is a peer-reviewed journal and the authors are respected academics.

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a link between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults.

The abstract: Whether homosexual pedophiles have more older brothers (a higher fraternal birth order) than do heterosexual pedophiles was investigated. Subjects were 260 sex offenders (against children age 14 or younger) and 260 matched volunteer controls. The subject's relative attraction to male and female children was assessed by phallometric testing in one analysis, and by his offense history in another. Both methods showed that fraternal birth order correlates with homosexuality in pedophiles, just as it does in men attracted to physically mature partners. Results suggest that fraternal birth order (or the underlying variable it represents) may prove the first identified universal factor in homosexual development. Results also argue against a previous explanation of the high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles (25% in this study), namely, that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. An alternative explanation in terms of canalization of development is suggested. http://www.springerlink.com/content/hh300395g834h386/ MoritzB 20:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's more than enough for wikipedia standards. Happy Camper II 20:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not without consensus it isnt, we dont allow POV pushing here merely because it can be sourced, and this is anti-gay POV pushing. Edit warring this against a number of editors isnt going to bring its inclusion a reality, ie edit warring doesnt work, SqueakBox 21:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophilia. Again POV pushing rampage. - Jeeny  21:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

However, according to Bogaert there is a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia and that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults.

Er, well, I'm kind of dubious for the following reason: 2-4% to 25-40% is not 620 times, but rather TEN times. Moreover, homosexual behavior =! homosexual; the percentage of men who have engaged in homosexual behavior is much greater than 4%, up to 10%. Even more so, you have to consider the very large problem of sampling bias; a lot of people who admit to being attracted towards children are gay males because of organizations like NAMBLA, as well as because a lot of these people most likely prey on boys because they don't have access to male adults. Even more interesting would be to ask what gender of adult they were more attracted to (if any).

The link may well exist, or it may simply be a result of society's marginalization of homosexuals as well as sampling bias. However, if it is a solid, peer-reviewed article published in a reputable magazine, I see no reason why it shouldn't be included. Titanium Dragon 06:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2–4% of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al., 1993; Fay et al., 1989; Johnson et al., 1992); in contrast, around 25–40% of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al., 1999; Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6–20 times higher among pedophiles."MoritzB 07:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not POV-pushing. Advocates of pedophilia are obviously trying to censor information.MoritzB 22:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol, you clearly havent looked at my contribs but I can assure you I have a reputation of being one of the most militantly anti pedophilia editors on the project as many would confirm. Your comment is both ridiculous and a personal attack, albeit a bizarre one. Indeed when you have a record like mine of fighting pro-pedophilia activism on the site you can start to criticise, otherwise desist from juvenile personal attacks, SqueakBox 23:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

However, besides the already known hypothesis that gender preference might be less resolved in pedophiliacs than non-pedophiliacs, I don't see that the results quoted in the article suggest any causal relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia, or vice-versa for that matter. Also, if someone can explain how comparing an incidence of 2-4% with an incidence of 25-40% gives a rate that is 620 times higher; straight math gives me a 10-fold higher rate, no 620-fold.--Ramdrake 23:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

First off, just because something has been published or been advocated by academics does not protect it from falling under the purview of WP:FRINGE. Nazi eugenics got plenty of academic support in their day, and we certainly don't give white supremacists equal weight with the scientific consensus on racial issues. Second, by your quote there, they are obviously flawed studies. They are both begging the question and confusing correlation with causation. Hardly good science. Frankly, creating a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia is a pet project of the conservative christian lobby one would find on Conservapedia. One peer journal article out of multitudes that oppose the idea is not the mainstream. According to the contemporary scientific consensus is a patently fringe concept. Not to mention being completely bigoted. But most importantly, the reason your addition is unacceptable is that it takes statistics from a reliable source and then draws its own conclusions. That's original research. VanTucky 23:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The best scientific studies available indicate that there is a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia. Your analogy to Nazi eugenics is flawed because these studies were not done in the 1930s.

“approximately one-third of had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls.”

“Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at least 20 to 1." Freund, K., Watson, R. & Rienzo, D. (1989). Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference. The Journal of Sex Research, 26, p. 107

According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented." John M. W. Bradford, et al., “The Heterogeneity/Homogeneity of Pedophilia,” Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa 13 (1988): 225. Elsewhere the study notes: “Researchers have variously estimated the incidence of homosexual pedophilia between 19 percent and 33 percent of reported molestations,” p. 218.

A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation. Michele Elliott, “Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell Us,” Child Abuse and Neglect 19 (1995): 581. MoritzB 23:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There is also the issue about handedness :

Lalumiere, M. L., R. Blanchard, et al. (2000). Sexual orientation and handedness in men and women: a meta­analysis. Psychol Bull 126(4): 575­92. Lalumiere 2000

Cantor, J, M. & P. E. Klassen, R. Dickey, B. K. Christensen, M. E. Kuban, T. Blak, N. S. Williams, and R. Blanchard. (2005). Handedness in pedophilia and hebephilia. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 34, No. 4, Aug. 2005, 447­59.

VanTucky and others are free to provide criticism that has high enough quality to be published in a journal if needed. If you think the studies are flawed, that's the level you need to reach. Happy Camper II 05:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Whoever keeps removing the material has some serious explaining to do. Lets hear it. Happy Camper II 05:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Article fully protected

The article has now been fully protected as there's a full-on edit war over that Ray Blanchard study. Folks - please work out your differences here on the talk page or come to some consensus over the paragraph. When you're ready, just get back to me or file a request for unprotect at WP:RPP. Thanks - Alison ☺ 05:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A compromise wording?

An extended version of this debate is at Talk:Homosexuality. By and large it involves the same people so there's no need to revise it here (except for Happy Camper II who is a new editor and has not contributed over there. Welcome to Misplaced Pages).

My view, for what it is worth:

• User:MoritzB has added some content to this article, and provided sources to support it. Thanks to him/her for that.
• However, the various talk page discussions have made clear there is no consensus for this material, as there is a substantial body of evidence opposing the studies MoritzB refers to and including this minority view gives it undue weight.
• As a compromse, we could perhaps adopt the middle-of-the-road wording from Homosexuality:

Gay men are also often alleged as having pedophiliac tendencies and more likely to commit child sexual abuse than the heterosexual male population, a view rejected by mainstream psychiatric groups and contradicted by research (add a couple of links here).

The above would seem to address both views in proper context. As always, any other ideas or suggestions welcome. Euryalus 06:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I read the discussion and its clear that there has been a missunderstanding, sexual abuse against children and development factors among pedophiles and homosexuals are two separate issues, one cannot be used to settle the other. User:MoritzB's material should be added unless someone has a serious criticism against them. Happy Camper II 06:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

My view:

• There is (scientific) evidence that Blanchard's paper is a minority view. Five different studies confirm the association between homosexuality and pedophilia. Some of them propose causality, others only correlation.
• The opposing studies are old compared to the recent studies I provided. (Jones) and (Blanchard et. al.)
• As the link between pedophilia and homosexuality is certainly notable there should be a separate section about this. See also: WP:PAPER

A compromise proposal:

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 620 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. According to W.H. James there seem likely to be causes common to male homosexuality and paedophilia. However, according to earlier studies the correlation is less significant. An empirical study found that homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population.

+ all other studies we may find. MoritzB 06:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Happy Camper, the serious arguments against it include:

• It contains elements of synthesis (that is, it draws conclusions from data rather than simply noting the findings). This is against a Misplaced Pages policy titled WP:SYN.
• While the quoted studies exist, they represent a minority view when compared to the volume of material rejecting the view that homosexuals are more likely to be pediophiles. Detailed coverage of these studies might give undue weight to the minority view and distort the overall presentation.
• There is also a minor problem of quoting from sources that require payment or registration to be viewed. Sources such as these are discouraged as the backup they provide to statements in the article may not be accessible to most editors. Compared to the above this is a fairly minor issue, but would need to be addressed if the studies were to be referenced.

MoritzB, I welcome your suggestion of a compromise but it still presents only one view, and that is a distinct minority. That seems to me to be give it undue weight, again. Adding this much text woudlr equire serious mountains of opposing studies to balance it, which as you indicate would be too long for this article and distort the overall presentation.Euryalus 06:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, why do you say that Blanchard's view is in the minority? What (scientific) evidence is there? Five different studies state the association between homosexuality and pedophilia. MoritzB 06:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• It's not the case, but even if it was, its a small problem that is easy to fix. It doesn't warrant the deletion of all material.
• You have offered no proof for this.
• This does not warrant the deletion of the material. Happy Camper II 07:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

A summary of sorts

It would help if we had this conversation in one place, instead of both here and the Talk:Homosexuality page.

Happy Camper - we will have to agree to disagree on synthesis. I think it is a major problem as it moves articles away from their factual base into original research. This does not suggest the original research or the synthsized conclusion is right or wrong, but synthesis converts Misplaced Pages from an encyclopedia into a collection of essays. On the second point, a sample of the contrary views can be found in footnotes 29 and 30 of the Homosexuality article, the papers listed by User:Tim Vickers on that talk page, and the commetns by User:Becksguy regarding the Blanchard study. I don't think MoritzB is suggesting that the Blanchard study represents a majority view - only that it and similar deserve a mention.

In summary -

I proposed words to the effect of this:

Gay men are also often alleged as having pedophiliac tendencies and more likely to commit child sexual abuse than the heterosexual male population, a view rejected by mainstream psychiatric groups and contradicted by research (add a couple of links here).

MoritzB proposed this:

Some scientific studies indicate that there is a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. According to Blanchard et. al. "The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men. In contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles." The high prevalence of homosexuality in pedophiles indicates that that the factors that determine sexual preference in pedophiles are not different from those that determine sexual preference in men attracted to adults. According to W.H. James there seem likely to be causes common to male homosexuality and paedophilia. However, according to earlier studies the correlation is less significant. An empirical study found that homosexuals are at about a 11:1 ratio in the pedophile population and at a 20:1 ratio in the general population.

Happy Camper supports MoritzB's alternative. I think it gives too much weight to one side and overstates the reliability of the Blanchard study.

Does anyone else have an opinion? Euryalus 07:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Look, there are two different questions here:

• What developmental factors are behind pedophilia and homosexuality, is there a link?
• Does homosexuals commit a disproportional amount of child sexual abuse?

Your proposal takes a rather one sided view on the second question while completely ignoring the first. Both issues should be addressed and properly sourced (Maritz did his part already). Happy Camper II 07:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a few questions on the research. Are these statistics for men who identify as homosexuals or are all underage sexual contact listed as homosexual because they occur between two males? Jmm6f488 07:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Homosexual pedophiles" are exclusively attracted to boys (25-40%), "heterosexual pedophiles" are exclusively attracted to girls. Also, I noticed an important clarification: "Ordinary (teleiophilic) homosexual men are no more likely to molest boys than ordinary (teleiophilic) heterosexual men are to molest girls."

This should be added, too.

MoritzB 07:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess my question is some heterosexuals molest young boys because essentially "they can" it is more of a power thing, like some heterosexuals will rape men in prison as a form of dominance. Does the study differentiate between people who are heterosexual that molest boys and those that are homosexual and molest boys? Jmm6f488 08:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

1. Ray Blanchard, Howard E. Barbaree, Anthony F. Bogaert, Robert Dickey, Philip Klassen, Michael E. Kuban and Kenneth J. Zucker: Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior, Volume 29, Number 5 (2000), pages 463 to 478.

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