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Career Stats in Infobox need help
Due to the unreliability of Negro League stats, I think it would be best to hide that section, but I don't know how. Otherwise, we need better stats in there, but I don't know which to use. I think they should at least be all from one source. Guanxi 04:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Josh Gibson Homers
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016050.html - almost 800 (which is what his MLB hall of fame plaque says. http://www.pittsburghlive.com/photos/2006-06-19/0619pGibson2-a.jpg
http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballplayers/player.php?name=Josh_Gibson_1911 "For the next five years the Crawfords dominated Negro League play. Gibson slugged long home runs -- 69 in 1934 -- and recorded astoundingly high batting averages. In 137 games with the Crawfords in 1933 he batted .467 with 55 home runs. " In 2 years , 1934 he hit 69 homers, and in 1933 he hit 55 homers. For a total of 126 home runs! http://www.toad.net/~andrews/josh.html "The records for the Negro National League show that in 1936 Gibson hit 84 home runs in 170 games, according to the Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues. "
http://www.nlbpa.com/gibson__josh.html Negro Leagues "Josh led the Negro National League in home runs for 10 consecutive years; credited with 75 home runs in 1931."
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/search/s_458633.html 64.131.205.111 22:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-233289/Josh-Gibson " In a recorded 61 at bats against the likes of Dizzy and Daffy Dean, Johnny Vander Meer and others, Josh hit .426, including five home runs" http://www.psacard.com/articles/article4210.chtml
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06192/701548-341.stm
http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sbnslegends/id1.html
64.131.205.111 00:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I see no reason not to include this since reliable references have been provided. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree, it currently states 126 homers (but with no strong reference) other references all show over 800 homers. Including in leagues like the Puerto Rican League, the Mexican League and the Dominican League. Just because he played against other nations doesnt discount his records. Minority groups weren't allowed to play in MLB in those days. Today minorities account for 41% of baseball players. So the argument that minority leagues were weaker competition can easily be debated. 64.131.205.111 00:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I have not said that minority leagues were weaker competition. The source of 146 home runs is The Macmillan Baseball Encyclopedia (see the fourth bullet under Josh Gibson#Notes) and is based on Negro league games only. The origin of the statistic of 800 career home runs is unclear, but it is just an estimate that is based on games against all competition, including games played against semipro and amateur teams. BRMo 00:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
User 64.131.205.111, the statistics that you are citing (for example, 75 home runs in 1931) are based on play against all competition. Negro league teams typically played many fewer league games than major league teams, but more games overall, because they barnstormed against semipro and amateur teams. In 1931, for example, Gibson's Homestead Grays played 65 official games. In 1936, Gibson's Pittsburgh Crawfords played 60 games. Gibson may have hit 84 home runs in 170 games, but most of them were non-league games. The statistics I posted (and that you deleted) are not controversial. They are from the best available statistical sources for official league games, which is how they were presented. I think if the article includes statistics that include non-league games, readers also ought to have access to the best available official league statistics. BRMo 00:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
You can place in the negro league statistics (where he played against only negro leage teams) in a sub directory, but you have also place in his professional home run totals. Professional meaning he got paid! 64.131.205.111 01:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- There have never been official statistics compiled for all of his games. What I posted earlier included everything I've found so far (Negro leagues, Mexican League, Cuban League, Dominican League), but he also played in the Puerto Rican League, for which I haven't yet found complete statistics. I believe he also played in the California Winter League. And statistics for most games against non-league opponents are not recorded anywhere on a systematic basis. BRMo 01:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Past that I have almost a dozen sources which place him as having over 800 homers. The vast majority being strong sources including Major league baseball hall of fame. 64.131.205.111 01:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- There is no actual documentation of 800 homers. It is an estimate that has been repeated on many sites. BRMo 01:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry but you'll have to familiarize yourself with the Misplaced Pages policy of no original research. The 800+ homers is actually on his Hall of Fame plaque. Which was made by the baseball hall of fame. The statistics you use don't add up to his 70+ home run seasons and other documented facts. . Until things are verified by reliable sources I propose you keep them in the talk section. 64.131.205.111 01:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- None of the information that you deleted was original research. All of the statistics come from published, reliable sources. The Negro league statistics come from Shades of Glory, pages 388-391, by Dr. Lawrence D. Hogan, senior professor of history at Union County College in New Jersey. In 2006, Dr. Hogan served on the special committee appointed by the National Baseball Hall of Fame to select Negro league players for enshrinement. The Mexican League statistics are from The Mexican League, page 151, by Pedro Treto Cisneros. The Cuban League statistics are from Cuban Baseball: A Statistical History, pages 222 and 225, by Jorge S. Figueredo. BRMo 03:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
ESPN is a published reliable source as is the Negro Leagues Player association website. Not an Amazon book review. You are quite free to refer this issue for an RFC. 64.131.205.111 03:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am apparently not making myself clear. The reliable sources that I've cited are the books themselves, not the book reviews that are shown in the links. BRMo 04:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Let me try again to explain why these league statistics don't match the other statistics you've mentioned. Gibson's Hall of Fame plaque says, "Considered greatest slugger in Negro Baseball Leagues. Power-hitting catcher who hit almost 800 home runs in league and independent baseball during his 17-year career." Please notice that the plaque says "in league and independent baseball." The numbers I've posted are for the league games. His teams also played many non-league games; probably many more non-league games than league games. Statistics were not regularly kept for non-league games. For a few years, someone kept track of the home runs, which is where the numbers like "75 home runs in 1931," "55 home runs in 1933," and "69 home runs in 1934" come from. But there are no complete statistics for all of these non-league games, and for many years there are no data at all. The number 800 home runs that is cited on his Hall of Fame plaque is an estimate, not a documented count. There is no table of statistics available that records all of his non-league homers (which is why the Hall of Fame says "almost 800" rather than giving us the exact number). I don't disagree with the Hall of Fame's estimate, and I haven't tried to delete it from the article. Readers should know that Gibson played many non-league games and hit many home runs outside the ones recorded in the official statistics. But I think it would also be helpful for the article to include the more complete and better verified data from the latest statistics compiled by respected experts on the Negro and Latin American leagues. These statistics are not controversial; they are just measuring statistics from league games rather than from all games. That is what I tried to add to the article, and which you've twice deleted. BRMo 03:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
You ignore the fact that he was more than a Negro League player. He played in multiple league's. He was a professional baseball player. During the time in which he played MLB had an established system of teams and was a profitable economic model. Black players did not have the same option and to remain profitable they relied on various other outlets to survive. Including different leagues in different nations. The tracking of the homers of Josh Gibson has been verifed on more than one website. If you look below there were several independent negro leagues as well as other places where black players played against each other. I think that if you included a notation that his records in some negro leagues are a small amount of his actual recorded statistics a compromise can be made but with that compromise his career statistics must be changed to reflect more than just his negro league record. I.E a raising of 146 HR's to his true career statistic of 800 or so homeruns.
Ps he never played in MLB so that must be changed as well. it is inaccurate 64.131.205.111 03:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- What? I certainly haven't ignored the fact that he played in multiple leagues! In fact I tried to post the statistics from all the leagues for which I could find data, including the Mexican, Cuban, and Dominican leagues, though you've deleted those statistics. Personally, I would be agreeable to showing both numbers on the infobox--the official number from Negro league games (which is actually 115 according to the Hogan book), and "about 800 (including non-league games)." But there are other editors who may have an opinion. Neither of us owns this article. BRMo 04:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I know you're using the Hogan book, but the information is inconsistant with other sources. Including the Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues which leads you to and consequently and "Leaving the Grays to join Gus Greenlee's Pittsburgh Crawfords in 1932, Gibson combined 34 home runs with a .380 batting average in his initial season with the club. Thereafter he recorded batting averages of .464, .384, .440, and .457, and he slugged 69 home runs in 1934 to become a star among stars on the great Crawfords teams of the 1930s" . Sources are extremely varying in their statistics. 115 to 962 (highest number) . We need more wikipedians to look over this. 64.131.205.111 06:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- In the Introduction to The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues (page 5), James Riley writes: "There is no single source for complete and accurate Negro League statistics. Anyone delving into the miasmic quagmire of this area of research has encountered conflicting and often confusing data. Some sources purporting to be valid representations of Negro League statistics are tainted from flawed research techniques. The statistics used in this volume are drawn from diverse sources, including contemporary press accounts and reconstructed data from box scores, scorebooks, and written summaries, and represent the data with the highest degree of reliability and validity that currently exists. Because of the diversity of performance data, semantic qualifiers are utilized to present a more comprehensive basis for analysis."
- In Shades of Glory (pages 380-381), Lawrence Hogan writes: "Baseball fans are used to the abundant supply of precise and accurate statistics for most contemporary baseball operations. Unfortunately, data of this caliber is not available for Negro leagues baseball. There exists no official source of statistics for these leagues, there are no compilations of scorecards, and modern researchers have had to dig deep to locate credible figures. There have been several outstanding attempts to rebuild this history, most notably by John Holway, Jim Riley, Phil Dixon, Larry Lester and Dick Clark, but many gaps still exist in the historical record... As part of the Hall of Fame sponsored study, Larry Lester and Dick Clark supervised an effort to rebuild the Negro leagues statistics in order to help historians better understand the game. They labored under a strict guideline to include only those numbers for league-sanctioned games where boxscores did exist. Their research team tracked down thousands of entries from over 120 period newspapers, and these have been used to build their data base. The other criterion is that these boxscores must be made available to the archive of the National Baseball Hall of Fame so that others could verify and duplicate their effort. The statistical charts used in this volume are a direct result of their monumental effort."
- In other words, the two sets of numbers are not necessarily inconsistent. They are measuring different things. The numbers published by Lawrence Hogan, which come from a study sponsored by the Hall of Fame, are limited to league games for which there are boxscores. The numbers published by James Riley and by the Web sites like the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum may include non-league games and reports from games for which there is no boxscore. In my opinion, there is no reason not to include both types of statistics in the article. BRMo 12:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- again you are discounting that the Josh Gibson played under different type of rules than lets say Joe Dimaggio. Comparing the schedule of lets say the Homestead Greys to the NY Yankees would be similiar to comparing the schedule of the NY Knicks and the New York Renaissance . It was a different era and a different type of playing schedule. You can't place modern perspective on a game that is generations old. His whole career should be listed not just numbers in one perspective. 64.131.205.111 16:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please stop trying to engage me in a debate that I do not wish to have. I am well aware that Josh Gibson played under a different system than Joe DiMaggio and have never claimed otherwise. I have explicitly pointed out the differences in playing schedule. I have not argued that only one perspective should be presented in the article. Please stop mischaracterizing my position. This discussion is not helpful. BRMo 18:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- again you are discounting that the Josh Gibson played under different type of rules than lets say Joe Dimaggio. Comparing the schedule of lets say the Homestead Greys to the NY Yankees would be similiar to comparing the schedule of the NY Knicks and the New York Renaissance . It was a different era and a different type of playing schedule. You can't place modern perspective on a game that is generations old. His whole career should be listed not just numbers in one perspective. 64.131.205.111 16:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
At the beginning of the 17th century, everyone knew that the Earth was the center of the universe; all published sources accepted that as a truth. By the end of that century, we knew that the Earth revolved around the Sun. It didn’t matter what those older sources said; we knew them to be wrong.
You can have a thousand different sources asserting an untruth, and it is still an untruth.
I mention this because of the erroneous claim about Josh Gibson’s home run totals. When Gibson was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1972, we knew few statistical facts about his career, and relied on anecdotal evidence of his greatness. The figure of "over 800" home runs was drawn from vague estimates of old timers who counted every single home run hit against every level of competition, whether a box score could be found or not. Some (if not many) were double-counted.
There are estimates (as opposed to actual counts) that Gibson hit in excess of 80 home runs in some single seasons. It should be pointed out that there is now a book out that claims that Babe Ruth hit as many as 104 home runs in one season; it counts every exhibition game he played that season: every spring training game, every post-season exhibition game against semi-pro (i.e., "batting practice") competition. In truth, those records cannot be added to Ruth’s totals. His single season best is still 60, his lifetime total 714. He gets no extra credit for the extra games, either barnstorm, spring training, or World Series.
Until the Hall of Fame publishes its long-awaited book on Negro Leagues statistics, complied by the SABR Negro League Committee a few years ago (a committee of which I am a member), the best and most official stats we have on Gibson are those published in the book Shades of Glory, written by Dr. Lawrence Hogan, and published by the National Geographic Society under the auspices of the Hall. According to the numbers in Dr. Hogan’s book, Gibson played in the Negro Leagues 1930-40 and 1942-46, and hit 115 home runs in Negro League competition. This does not count Mexican League games (where he played 1940-41), or anything else except officially sanctioned Negro League games. It is likely the number will increase by a few after all last-minute additions are counted, but he will still have fewer than 200 home runs in league competition.
You can add in the Mexican and all other league competition in, and he will still be only near 200. Those other 600 (if indeed the number reached that high) or so were counted against minor league, semi-pro or worse competition. They were not official games and were against uneven levels of competition, and fair or unfair, they are not counted. In fact, most cannot even be documented.
Baseball is a zero-sum game. For every hit made, a hit is given up; for every run scored, a run is given up; for every win, there is a loss. When counting exhibition games to add up Josh’s huge HR totals, old researchers never actually bothered to collect whole box scores (usually cherry-picking the data for the stars in which they were interested), never tallied the opposing side (one can imagine that if that had happened, there would be 4,000 teams listed, with about 100 wins and 6,000 losses between them), and frequently counted one to three HR for Josh without even bothering to count his at bat and hit totals. It is bad record-keeping, bad research, and should not by the wildest stretch of the imagination be considered a "reliable" source.
Just because someone says "800" and someone else repeats that claim, based on the first, does not make any of them "reliable" sources. As Mark Twain said, "It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so."' This argument is a perfect example of Mr. Twain’s observation.
The number currently sanctioned by the Hall is 115 home runs (and a .359 BA). John Holway’s numbers (last published in the Macmillan Baseball Encyclopedia in 1996) was 146 HR and a .362 BA. Those are the only numbers that have ever been taken to be in any way "official". Use whichever you choose, but "over 800" is 'just plain wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Couillaud (talk • contribs) 19:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
You can say what you feel, about uneven level of competition. It can easily be asserted that MLB was a minor league until black players came around. You can easily state this using current date due to the dominiance of non white players in the game of baseball. The NBA prior to allowing black players come around wasn't as good as it is now. I won't even mention the NFL or BOXING. The macmillan encyclopedia is just another book as is Hogan's book. They weren't around to judge the standards of competition nor to actually make an accounting. Black players played under different conditions and it was normal for them to play whomever and whoever was available. It was the time of segregation. White players had a working economic model. The number on his plaque says over 800. The ESPN article says over 800. The negro leagues player association says over 800. Those are strong sources. The 2 books aren't strong sources. As the fact stands he has over 800 total homers. It is what is documented in reputable sources. 64.131.205.111 21:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- "User 64.131.205.111", you did not read my comment thoroughly. It doesn't matter how many sources you find that say 800 or more, they are all demonstrably wrong, because none of them base their "fact" on an actual and recognized count, but on anecdote and legend, and in most cases they are simply repeating the original error on the Hall of Fame's plaque. No one ever counted Josh Gibson's home runs and came up with that total; they based it upon a few old timers with no documentation. The lower number, however unfair it might be, is the most accurate count known, based upon reliable research. The Hall does not make such a claim for Gibson anywhere on its website, and it has been known to change the plaques very infrequently. Repeating an error a thousand times will not render it more accurate.
- Negro League players played (depending upon the era in which they played) between 30 and 80 official games per season. We cannot even things out by giving them credit for games against every podunk town team and every semi-pro team against which they played. The fact that Negro League games have now been compiled is a major step in itself, one where we can leave the wild estimates behind and start engaging in factual analysis. There are statistical analysts working on models to "normalize" Negro League stats with the white majors to make a better estimate of what they would have hit had there been no segregation, and Gibson's totals suggest he would have been the best power-hitting catcher of all time, but he would have been lucky to get to 500 (12-year career, demanding position); had he switched to outfield or first base instead of catching, he still would not have hit 800 home runs in 12 years.
- You are wrong in asserting the quality of your sources. While ESPN and the Hall are generally reputable, their information in this case is simply repeating a myth over 50 years old that has been debunked. The Hall put its plaque up for Gibson in 1972 before serious research had begun, and one article at ESPN cannot be taken for canon. The Hall's most recent statement on the matter is what is contained in Hogan's book, as they commissioned it. If you wish to assert that the Macmillan Official Baseball Encyclopedia and a publication commissioned by the Hall are "not strong sources", please state your objection to them. As a 26-year member of SABR, I have much more respect for them than a single article on the ESPN website. I am also aware that Cooperstown plaques are frequently incorrect on the statistics they quote, if only because they didn't have the accurate information available. I know from personal experience that the NBPA's web site is itself not a reliable source for statistics.
- Somewhere in the article, it can be stated that it was once estimated that Gibson hit over 800 HR in his career, but that this does not reflect his totals in official Negro League games, is based upon all games against a variety of levels of competition, and has never been accurately confirmed, but 800 cannot be accepted as an official total.
- I continue to hear from SABR members and friends in other fields about how bad WikiPedia is, and they sometimes refer to the recent story about how many entries get edited by people with a vested interest (like politicians or corporations), but this is another example, when people who insist on placing inaccurate and discredited information in articles because they can find a source for it.
- And I believe that the majority of editors will agree that the newer, carefully researched numbers will replace the old anecdotal numbers, no matter how many times they are repeated.
- --Couillaud 23:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Please famiarize yourself with the wikipedia policy of No original research. Also wikipedia is based on the use of substantitiated research. On a side note you should know that as I wrote before the Blacks and Whites had very different ways of playing ball and running their ball clubs. As you can't compare boxing during a time of segregation and today. Or when Rocky Marciano weighed 178 lbs as a heavyweight while todays heavyweights weight over 250lbs easily. It's a different time and different era. blacks played under different rules. Feel free to file an RFC i'd be delighted as to what other wikipedian's have to day about this. 64.131.205.111 23:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Having "famiarized" myself with your argumentative history (as well as already being familiar with Wiki's NOR policy), I'm not going to play your game. The official number of home runs I have quoted is based upon primary published research, and the "over 800" number is based upon tertiary sources that have been proven inaccurate. We are not here to debate the relativity of the environment, merely the raw number. If you want to add a section in the article about the discrepancies of Negro League numbers (if you can speak authoritatively on the subject) and how the numbers must be taken with certain caveats. However, we can't add phantom stats to someone's career to make up for what was done.
- I will not file an RFC, because I feel confident in my sources, and I'm quite familiar with the ones you cited. If you wish to do so, then please make the request yourself. --- Couillaud 23:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
If you're taking about the RAW number you're saying 800 homers. Point blank! The stats aren't phantom, they were documented and shown on various sources. I have familiarized myself with your argument history and you seem to have a thing of downplaying the numbers of minority groups. Which I find to be extremely interesting. 64.131.205.111 04:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Additional comment:
- This is probably not appropriate to the comments section (it should be about the merits of the article), but I want to add this anyway:
- My personal goal in working on these articles is to add the most accurate known information available, and Gibson's "800 home runs" is one of those that leads Negro League research into discredit; it is simply not possible that a man playing a 17-year career in the 30s and 40s could have hit 800+ HR in an integrated majors, and continuing to quote it as gospel makes the Negro Leagues look like an inferior league, which I do not believe they were.
That is pretty funny. It's not possible for a man to do this or to do that. IT didn't seem possible for Cy Young to win 511 games, but he did! It didn't seem possible for a man to score 100 in a game, but it happened! There are records and records to be broken. There are always doubters who will downplay things. The Negro leagues were far from inferior, the records were not as well. Satchell Paige must not have been inferior if he was able to be the oldest man to play in a major leage game or rookie pitcher! IT says something about his ability about MLB if it was able to be over taken by a man so old! 64.131.205.111 04:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- There will come a time when we will have in our hands all available Negro League stats (the aforementioned HoF encyclopedia), and the next step will be coming up with a formula to estimate equivalencies between the white and black leagues. Until that day, let's go with the most accurate, best researched data available.
Best data available is the Hall of Fame plaque! 64.131.205.111 04:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Barn Storming
there were numerous other black leagues outside of the negro leagues West Coast Negro League (West Coast Baseball Association) that played in 1946 64.131.205.111 01:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Tons of varous "Negro Leagues"
American Negro League , East-West League, Eastern Colored League , League of Colored Baseball Clubs , Negro American League , Negro National League , Negro Southern League , West Coast Negro Baseball League
64.131.205.111 01:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
ANL- American Negro League 1929. After the collapse of the ECL in the spring of 1928, the member teams reemerged in 1929 as the American Negro League. ECL- Eastern Colored League 1922-1928. On December 16, 1922, the Eastern Colored League (chartered as the Mutual Association of Eastern Colored Baseball Clubs) is formally organized. The league will complete five seasons before folding in midsummer of 1928 IND - (I) Independent Club, no league affiliation. LCBC - League of Colored Baseball Clubs; formed in 1887 and consisted of eight teams in Baltimore, Boston, Cincinnati, Louisville, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Washington. The league is recognized as an official minor league and protected under baseball's National Agreement, but it folded 13 games into its only season. MSL - Middle States League 1889, a mixed color league (reorganized as the Eastern Interstate League in 1890) had the New York Gorhams and the Cuban Giants as member clubs. Unfortunately the Eastern Interstate League died mid-season with the Cuban Giants resurfacing in the Connecticut State League. That league also folded (1891) and the Cuban Giants returned to independent status. NAL- Negro American League 1937-1950. NNL- Negro National League 1920-1948 NSL- Negro Southern League 1932 - The Negro Southern League was the only major circuit to complete its schedule in 1932. The NSL was a minor league before and after the 1932 season. NEWL - Negro East West League. Formed in 1932 and folded during its only season. WCNBL- West Coast Negro Baseball League 1946 64.131.205.111 01:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
PRE-NEGRO LEAGUES
Cuban Giants 1885-1889 Independent
Buffalo International League 1886-1888
Page Fence Giants 1894-1898 Independent
Cuban "X" Giants 1897-1907 Independent
Chicago Union Giants 1901-1904 Independent
Columbia Giants of Chicago 1899-1900 New York Lincoln Giants 1911-1930
Philadelphia Giants 1902-1916 Leland Giants 1905-1910
Royal Poinciana Team 1890s-1920s Palm Beach Association 64.131.205.111 01:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
BARNSTORMERS & TRAVELING TEAMS:
Many squads hosted Negro players in competition against major league, minor league, barnstormers, or other Negro League teams. While technically not part of any formal Negro League, the following teams all played a part in the history of Negro baseball : 1945 American All Stars, Ethiopian Clowns, Harlem Globe Trotters
64.131.205.111 01:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
infobox
Trying to create an info box some help would be appreciated
http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Satchel_Paige&diff=156400538&oldid=156367484 64.131.205.111 02:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
RFC
Feel free to file one concerning the josh homers issues
http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:RFC#Instructions
64.131.205.111 21:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Josh Gibson homers
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