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== Is Castro a Dictator? ==
Dear Michael and Michaels of the world
I am glad we have got rid of the "" you place on my discussion page and can have a meaningful dialog now. I was not planning to respond again but then I ask myself why not. I am not trying to convince you or anyone of anything here. I am trying to have civilize conversation only. Explaining my points of view as to why I do not like Castro and his system and why I think he is a "]" and should be called one here.

You do have some points that are very similar if not the same to the points that were explained to me once and many more times back in Cuba and I could never understand them. As you can see Not because I have no intellect or even because I can not listen to reasons.
Please, understand that I am not trying to convince you of anything I repeat but please just listen to my voice the voice I never had in Cuba. I am also trying hard to understand also why you think the way you do. To see if maybe I am on error after all, we all make mistakes. The first step to knowledge as some old Greek used to said is "to know what you don't know" or as some ] used to said "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"!
We all humans are very quick to generalized and as always generalization are incorrect and conduces all of us to errors.

Re:"I'm sorry but I think this is an example of the exaggeration which gives the anti-revolutionary Cubans a poor reputation."

Just as you claimed in my page I have exaggerated so have you. No all the people that speak ill of the Cuban ] and Castro are the same we all have different points of view as it should be because we all have all encounter different experiences while traveling thru time with the revolution, some experiences were good some were very bad some peoples experiences have being very horrific ending by them loosing their most precious thing here on earth "One's own life" just killed for their own convictions, for standing on principle on what they believe to be true. Some others have rejoice in that system and multiple others have used it in their favor and profit from it even people outside of Cuba.

When I try now to balance the good and the bad from the society I was born into and educated my balance goes very very heavy on the bad side and that is not just my experience that is the experience of millions of others that choose to live in exile like me here in the US and all around the world. We Cubans are everywhere. Exiled from our homeland and I am sure the many other millions that remain in the island and still have not give up like we did and are still struggling over there without surrendering as we see in the news every day and that he still place them in prison. Just because one man, just one idea , his.

I was label in Cuba "'''a gusano'''" a worm like many others that seek other future just because I decide to live somewhere else to have different choices. Many people here in the US and many other free countries go and live in different countries other than their own fatherland for many reasons and that does not make them less patriotic or less desirable sons of the country where they were born and above all they are never label traitors to the fatherland, all called "worms" as in liking decay and putrefaction. etc and above all they are always allow to come back and forth as many time as they want to without having to ask for special permit to enter your own country something I have to do if I like to visit Cuba! Nobody will think ill of some British person living in Cuba and liking Castro and portrait him as an anti-British.

Why does my desire to experience for myself other places or the imperialism as he put it makes me automatically a traitor and an anti-revolutionary? what makes one an anti-revolutionary? is it not agreeing with everything the Commander says? Is it not being an adulator? a system unconditional? is it having your own voice? having your own light and not being a "shadow person" with a need for someone to lead them in the right path? for messiahnism? Maybe at times I am weak maybe at times I am strong but "I am" as in "''']'''" (think therefore I am).
I was never given the right to choose. What you have called in a softer tone ''paternalistic'' I call '']'' and ] were things are chosen for me as if I was a little kid that does not know what it wants that has not yet grow up into adulthood. Why do some people get to chose for me? I want to be an adult like I am. I want to choose myself. I want to have responsibilities. I don't need a strong government that dictates to me what I have to do, that tells me who I should meet. Who I should love , who I should hate. How I should behave.(Love the Soviet Union Hate the US that was the slogan)(read ]) that was Cuba unfortunately the Cuba I remember.(I happen to like American music and not Russian, again pun intended) and I wanted to be independent.

Be for good or Bad I wanted to be myself. I wanted to revolt, even knowing that I may be wrong at times and could make mistakes from which I could always hope to learn, or just to show that I am here living. I want the experience I want to learn in essence "I want to LIVE"! So I want to be in command of my choices. I do not want any government paternalistic or not making choices for me or even giving me menu of choices like "o te vaz o te acomodas" that is "either you go on exiled or you start liking the system we have here" or consistently choose for me all the things I did not want or maybe some things I really wanted because every time they did it they took a little piece away from me, they take away my self determination, my self reliance a bit of my ''']''' a bit of me. I am sure some will like it and some will not and obviously that tents to create opposition. From all the things I have experience thru live to me maybe because of my experiences in Cuba one of the most precious and that I value most is that of being able to choose and to be able to voice my point of view by myself without government intervention and interference without fear. To be able to want something and to struggle to get it. Not of things being given to you as handouts or getting things I wanted but did not earn or maybe not wanted. We humans are very complex and should never be placed like caged animals in a zoo were food should be ration and provided to us.(Cuba still have rationing books) Where maybe Lions are feed bananas and monkeys meat. :-) I am not kidding. That is what it feel like to live in that system. Where dietitians decided for you what's best for you to eat. where someone is watching you weight and telling you, you need to exercise because you are overweight and could get hight blood pressure! All those things are charming but sorry I do not want it. Just remember I am speaking metaphorically there.

My uncle back in Cuba was telling us on the phone once a while back during the so called "]" that he had years without eating beef. The one every foreigner in Cuba easily have access at the hotels but Cubans don't even remember the smell(please to all of you going to Cuba for a visit please invite a few friendly Cubans to eat meat with you at a hotel! they will love you for it :-)). He said that he almost forgot what meat tasted like. I jokingly said to him "Uncle here in this country very good doctors have made research and published results in a research medical Journal and have determined that eating meat is dangerous for all of us it can give you cancer so please think of the government refusal or impossibility to provide meat for you as something good not something bad. Think of it as they want you to live longer to die very old"!
His response was. I don't need their love I just like to die happy eating what I want even if my live is shorter I had the taste of meat I crave so much! (Honest this is true! I am not making this up here on the fly to illuminate my point or to make a pun this time)

Why are you thinking that Fidel Castro's way is the only way? Why everything that opposes his point of view have to be reactionary or counter-revolutionary? Why only one party?
We all know why! Is part of having his way or there is no other way. I want to have choices just like my uncle. I don't just want to be able to eat meat, I also like chicken and fish and vegetables (and now I am being metaphoric here) if you like to be vegan or vegetarian that is your choice and you should not impose it on me no matter how you think about the poor animals getting kill or about me dying young. We humans are killing far too many of our own kind and even in some places on earth even eat them to have not learn something out of it yet.
What about asking the people what they want to do instead of directing, dictating (of Dictator) what they have to do?

About the dictator word I will tell you something else. In my time in Cuba in the Communism lectures at university I was forced to take (otherwise I would not get a degree) I remember between ourself we jokingly used to called them with a lot of fear and smiles mixed in "]" classes. We called "]" because that is what they claim ] was. A Science and believe me I know science I study math and love math. We learned in class that communism was a science as in hypotheses and proof or theses as in inexorable laws of nature that will exist independent of what we believe as objective and concrete things we could never change just as in ] being always true even before Pythagoras discovered it!. But this was something they were never able to scientifically proof! It was not even a pseudo science from my understanding of what science was.To me It is just a view on how to solve some of the human problems. Is not even a philosophy like they claimed. They created nothing new that had not already existed before.

We also called it "]" because they were talking about things we will never see. Like people only using what they needed and about a level of consciousness that people will care for each either in a collective way and money will not exist either and everything will be taken care off. All malice will be magically gone in essence some sort of magic kingdom without wars, without hunger without illiteracy and were people will not be in prison, no criminals no deviant behavior. "Everyone EQUAL". Why then there is a refusal from Castro's government to release any statistical information about Cuba? how many criminals his dreamy n] society generates. how many whores or "world fame gineteras" that attracts the wrong kind of tourism into a country, created out of a need for a simple bar of soap and tooth paste something ridiculously simple to obtain in a society like ours. But that only a foreigner with dollars and access to foreigner stores in Cuba could get! Don't go claiming American blockade like Castro does. I think all this basic needs are unnecessarily unavailable in Cuba since he is able to sell it for dollars to foreigners and also to Cubans with chavitos (secondary currency created by the Cuban government instead of the standard currency the government uses to pay people that is the Cuban peso) why the distinction? why can the Cuban government pay them with chavitos to all of them? or even dollars why can't they earn a living working honestly? why is the government "force" and nurture many of them into "]" is it their choice? or is it the governments choice? who should be to blame?

I see then that for him is more important to squeeze a few dollars out of the very poor he is ruling and their families abroad. About him pimping Cubans into prostitution. I am not kidding I saw in horror as the great leader on TV somewhere explaining why Cuba's gineteras ("whores") had law degrees and were doctors in medicine and he look to me like he was proud to have the most highly educated whores in the world. If someone can find this somewhere please bring it here. Then I figured maybe this whole thing about things being scarce in Cuba is all made up. So that everyone is most worry about what to eat and not about bringing down a system that does not work. What is more important? your immediate need of feeding your hungry child or maybe finding medicines for a dying mother without medicines blame on an American blockade when foreigners go in Cuba to special clinics for foreigner and paying with dollars get the treatment denied to the more undeserving simple Cubans that supported him all the way? Clinics he had just for foreigners only or the top hierarchy of his system that could rival the Mayo clinic here in the US! tell me do you think a person like that has principles? do you think he care about "the people" never mind all the rhetoric and all the talk on his very looong speeches always saying the same thing. How good he is for Cuba and the Cuban people and that all malice comes from as he put it with arrogance the imperialism that is the (USA) the enemy!

I see that he does not sell them those basic things for Cuban pesos their normal currency not only in order to maybe squeeze a few more dollars out of them. I will even venture to say in order to have youth prostituted then self. So I guess that also makes him a pimp! can we put that right next to dictator and also called him a Cuban pimp?
From the Communism classes we learned we were in the initial stages of communism. I was only seeing this things they talk in paper never in practice and no one ever have seen it not even the poor Russians that spend so much time at it and with much better resources that we did, they had decide to throw the towel. As they said for true communism to be. All countries had to be communist. Meanwhile we where building this horrendous system I had personal experience with and that they called "]"! or "Dictadura del proletariado" "''']'''" derive from "]" :-) (Notice even ] and Engels knew and called it for the right word that is dictatorship or maybe was ] or ] or ], I fail to remember who, sorry for that. Meanwhile we where all stuck in this horrendous ]n system were '''"some are more Equal"''' than others just like the one described in ].
I have nothing against "Equality" is a beautiful word but can it be archive for real? Is just too hard! We may all try but is very hard to be '''"EQUAL"'''. I hope you will also agree with me that human nature and instincts will always take over and make us be what each of us want to be. To develop our own personality where we each are individuals not necessarily with same levels of experience and knowledge or intelligence levels or even beauty. To desired the best for our own blood. Who would not like to have their own children educated in the best universities the world have? With the best educators and teachers? You have to recognized that we all are not really born equal no matter how many words to that effect we can put idealistically in many constitutions of many countries.

Just like in this country (US) our founding father ] place these most beautiful words in the "]" --"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that '']'', that they are endowed by their Creator with certain ], that among these are Life, ], and the ]." or maybe the French flavor slogan of the "]" one of the oldest ] "''']'''" sorry I left out "'''ou la mort!'''" "'''or death'''" (I am being '']'' here for those that will shriek at the presence of death in French and that only speak one language! :-) pun intended ) to softening the way the harshest part of any revolution ] is where some people have to die or do they?
Does it have to be '''"Patria o Muerte"'''? (Fatherland or Death!) as in every ending of a Castro speech? Are we still living in barbarism where we need to quash people like ants just because they do not happen to follow the same line we do?

Tell me Michael how many people have you have killed that do not agree with you? I am hoping your answer is none. Can Castro said the same? Is it so bad for him that he has to resort to kill people to get his point of view succeed? Why all the killing why not forgiving why not understanding? why not tolerance?

I tell you why he and all the other dictators need to be ruthless and need to kill.
The simple answer is. Is the way to instilled ] on people so they will do as commanded, is the way you play on the same level as ] by having command over their very own life. Did you notice that only by having command of other people life we get close to having GOD like power?
This is common to every dictator.

They kill and torture the opposition or place them in prison with very long sentences or exiled them. Do you think they could hold on to power if they did not instill these deep fears into people? I think not. When the pope ] visited Cuba the phrase that resonate the most for all Cubans inside Cuba and outside was probably “No tengan miedo!” That is “Don’t be afraid!”
If the system was not hard on dissent like it is. If the system did not punished deviants outside the lines they want you to be in. Do you think they will still follow a system that is not able or does not want for whatever reason to feed them, to dress them and to even cure them no matter all the ] coming from him?

Do you think he will not do truly democratic elections where people will be allow to vote for whomever they choose and have multiple parties if he thought that he could win?
He knows he will be defeated. He knows his system is a failure. His system is design to keep people barely alive with a minimum expenditure on his part. So they can work for him and pay them next to nothing just as ].

Have you noticed that every time pressure builds up in the system, his system he opens the pressure valve and let the flow gate of immigrants go to the USA and other countries as we have seen many times before (Something interesting to notice is the pressure releases usually happened during democratic presidents in the US like with Kennedy, Carter, Clinton). Some other country is solving his problems taking in the people tired of struggling for something that will never be. Funny that country is as he always put it “The enemy!”
From my point of view I say that the USA is probably the biggest friend he’s got. Just think this the US takes in all the people that can not tolerate his system anymore. It is estimated about 2 million Cubans are in the USA maybe another million in other countries. He should know the real numbers. Can you imagine if he had to place all of us in prison? Or get all of us Kill?
The USA does not stop being friendly towards him there. It is also the escape goat he is used many times to justify his failures! That is priceless. Any failure he can blame the USA and the USA blockade!
He is always crying wolf “The Americans are coming, we need to be ready!” and on and on. Again “Fear”! controlling people by fear! Read the speeches!

Do you know what Cubans themselves called what they are building? Do not think of ] because they know is not socialism. They have two names for it.
One is ] and the other one is ]. Sociolismois very well explained in that link as to fidelism you are probably very familiar with. Is that everybody following Castro as GOD and whatever he says is just as if it was Gods commandments dictated to Moses!

So we can see that many people have used "equality,égalité, igualdad" thru real history and even fiction ] maybe each with different ], But yet let us say we all seem to be wanting to be needing this equality between people between nations but that it is so elusive and always is the first thing to go in the presence of ]s,]s, ]s ]s, and why not let us also called by their named that is "]S" like ] like ] like ] like ] like ] like Kin Ill Son father and his son. and like '''Fidel Castro''' and countless others before them. Interesting is to note that each of them had different definitions for what they mean by "]" different ]s! They learned maybe with ] to attach any meaning or multiple meanings to a word.

Why does saying Fidel Castro is a dictator is bad? I tell you why I think many think is bad. Because that puts him in the same company as those others that were truly more horrific and committed bigger crimes that he has done. Stalin murder millions and so did Hitler but obviously Fidel Castro is not at that level at the same scale yet he has done it maybe a thousand maybe 2000 or maybe 100 thousand and that not matter the number places him at that level!. To start if he had killed millions he may have being left by himself in the Island without ] to ruled.

Just look at the equality desired by Hitler was it equality of people "all people" or "all his people". He try to archive his superior super race maybe using genetic selection to obtain the perfect arian all equal and all powerful! etc... was he right or wrong? Some people still this day and age still agree with him! still have not learned but should we impose our views on them? should we be paternalistic as you put it describing Castro and dictated to them how they should think? should we dictated to them as children and tell them you are wrong and if you don't change what you think I will punish you with prison or maybe dead for what you think?

I was thinking a bit more. And maybe instead of just classifying dictators as such we should call them by a measuring unit. Normally in physics you use let say meters or feet depending on who you talk since I am Cuban American I propose to use as a unit of dictatorship a 'Castro' so we could possibly say something like Hitler was a Dictator of 200 Castros , Stalin may have being a 190 Castros, A Hugo Chavez so far seem to be about .7 Castro on the dictatorship scale. Obviously I have not define what exactly we are measuring is it how many people are defecting the systems they create? compare to the total percent of the population of the countries they rule? is it how many people they murder while they stay in power? is it how intolerant they are of opposition? or how many years they have of absolute power?, or we could even used a ] of all those factors to define the unit of measure that is '''a dictator of One Castro''' that is '''Fidel Castro'''.

So concluding "We the people" do have things that make us equal but we also all have things that make us very disparate. I still do not see it as bad. If you tell me I have to live in the idyllic society were everyone have to think the same ] and I am exaggerating here then I think is boring is far more interesting the daily struggle we have to do on systems like ours were everyone is got an opinion on everything! maybe a different idea a different solution to the same problem that maybe could even be or is better than mine! and in all honesty I am able to recognized that and to embraced without fear of loosing my job or not getting a job or etc..
Why should we just listen to one person more than anybody else? What entitles this person to be the unique voice of so many people, the messiah? And to have power over their life of everyone?


'''To be a ]?'''

Sorry for the long argument but this is important for people in other parts to learn from others mistakes.

Best regards

I am not so ] 18:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)! now?
with pun intended ;-).
:This long winded posting (by SilentVoice), belongs on a ''Blog'', not here. ] 21:27, 18 July 2007 (UTC)




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To-do list for Fidel Castro: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2013-12-07

  • The article is longer than appropriate for a Misplaced Pages article. Would it make sense to spin off some parts into separate, topical pages?
  • Is Castro alive or dead? (I know he was very ill) I recommend to change the "summary box" on the right side of his page to start with "Born xxxx" and either "Died xxxx" or "Present age, xxxx", as is done for many other personalities. Otherwise, I hunt through the entire article and still find nothing conclusive.

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Infant mortality in the intro

Does this belong here? At best it is misleading; I'm thinking of rewriting or removing as its not an accurate comparison (no matter how much Moore wants it to be) as the statistics are calculated differently (what is considered a "live" birth) between the US and just about everywhere else (including most of europe), and if you read the literature almost all of the US rate is due to infants that other countries would not even list in their statistics (see PEDIATRICS Vol. 116 No. 6 December 2005, pp. 1487-1491 (doi:10.1542/peds.2005-0392)The Contribution of Withholding or Withdrawing Care to Newborn Mortality Lorayne Barton, MD, MPH and Joan E. Hodgman, MD ). Gtadoc 20:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Any truth to Fidel and baseball?

I forget where I heard it, and I'm not sure of its legitimacy, but is it true that Fidel actually tried out in the '50s as a pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles and was rejected? If that's the case, can we blame the O's for the Cuban Missile Crisis? Is there any information regarding this anywhere, or has this been misinterpreted/fabricated throughout the decades since? EaglesFanInTampa 18:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

There's absolutely no truth to that. He wasn't a very good baseball player in the first place, and he was never given the opportunity to try out for any professional baseball team. 68.155.127.112 04:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

JP II is dead...

"Later in the day, though, the pope also made his most critical reference yet to the American economic embargo of Cuba."

I doubt JP II will make any further such references.

Guess not. GoodDay 22:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Clearly the intended meaning is that JPII made his most critical statement up to that point, not until the present. Nicolasdz 14:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Fidel Castro/Che Guevara Song

There was a song sung by one Christy Moore involving both Fidel Castro and Che Guevera. It praises them for "freeing" Cuba, and is called "Companeros". So shouldn't there be a mention of that in the "Public image" section? Thanks. 81.145.240.114 14:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Only in the trivia section. If there's no 'trivia' section, then mention it at Christy Moore. GoodDay 21:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Other women, other children

For years now diligent "editors" have been erasing reference to Castro's other women and other children. And yet there is considerable evidence that there are such. El Jigue208.65.188.149 01:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

EJ - do you have some references that we can cite ? -- Beardo 03:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


Will post when I recover them again....perhaps they are in the Fuentes "Auto" biography but that is an iffy book and will look for a better source. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Fidel 'Casanova' Castro? His beard must have been ticklish. GoodDay 21:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


reports on Castro's health

According to some exile sources Castro's condition is worsening rapidly El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"Coma Andante", "Caga Andante" and "muerto-vivo" you got to give that to the exiles they are ingenious, however I doubt we can use this as a reliable source because of the nature of it, en otras palabras los gringos se van a quejar si la informacion viene de una fuente que ellos no consideren "confiable". -- Caribbean~H.Q. 23:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's waint until he's dead, before adding further 'health' imformation. Afterall, he won't recovery at that point (though he's doctors might dispute that). GoodDay 20:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

A LETTER TO FIDEL CASTRO

Excuse me, I want to write a letter to Fidel Castro. I am from Europe, from Bulgaria. But I don`t know the exact address which I am supposed to write to. Please help me! bulgaria. Please tell me how to find the address or tell me it. Thank you beforehand!!! Ivan from bulgaria bulgaria bulgaria.

This isn't the correct place to make that request. This page is for suggestions on 'improving' this article. GoodDay 17:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, well -- you are, of course, correct GoodDay, but since time may be running out , why not help out this would-be correspondent? Here is the address to which you can write, Ivan, assuming your intended recipient is still in this world -- but you would probably be well-advised to send your letter via DHL Express:
Dr. Fidel Castro Ruz
Presidente del Consejo de Estado
Palacio de la Revolución
La Habana - CUBA.

Thanks a lot, but do i have to write a postal code???:)

No postal code is necessary, but be sure to put your return address on the envelope if you send it via regular mail. -- Polaris999 17:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Polaris999 (talk • contribs) 07:22, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Castro is dead?

I just heard Castro died from someone that knows someone in Cuba. Cannot verify it. BrknPhoenix 01:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Not a verified source, but perezhilton.comand many other news mediums are reporting that Castro is dead.

If he is, I'm sure his doctors will tells us he'll recover. GoodDay 16:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't get your comment, they can't hide something like this for long its not like they can rebuild him. Or have the technology or the capability to make the world’s first bionic man. They can't turn a dead man into that nor they can make him better,stronger or faster.”. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I heard the Miami Rumor: Castro is dead, Raul and Ricardo Alarcon feuding. Arrests in the department of the Interior ("secret" police), and regular police gathering to prevent riots. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Reddit has picked the story up and a conversation is starting there. TheArcologist 20:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Not to sound American biased, but we should wait until CNN confirms Castro's death, before adding it to the article. GoodDay 20:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree, although it is something to watch. I haven't heard much about this since yesterday and nothing has been confirmed. We'd have nothing to source but PerezHilton if we added it today... TheArcologist 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Castro has been rumored to be dead since 2006, anyways if he is the goverment wouldn't let the public know at the moment because the island is on a category 4 huriccane alert (see Hurricane Dean for more info) and doing so may result in a civil crisis. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"Norra Skåne", a Swedish paper with supposedly good sources has just recently published (!) Castro's death. Norra Skåne is a serious and reliable albeit very small Swedish paper based in the Scania region. Wouldn't it be quite a sensation if a minor Swedish paper is the first one to break the news. I'm not suggesting we change the article or anything. Check http://www.nsk.se/apps/pbcs.dll/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.248.242.190 (talk) 20:25, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

An Announcement will be made Friday 8/24 about his death.

And when it is we will add it here. I have opposed Caribbean's full protectiuon request because if this is true we need the article unprotected. So please help by not adding this until it appears on a page like this. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Need help with opening box

Could a more tech savvy Misplaced Pages user alter the article's opening box to add the fact that Castro is the head of the Non-Aligned Movement. You know, create one of those categories that has listings of predecessor and successor and whatnot... It would be much appreciated. Nicolasdz 14:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Lets see I can probably give it a try, now who was his predecesor? - Caribbean~H.Q. 14:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The head of state of the country where the immediately previous NAM meeting was held would have been his predecessor in this post which is sometimes called "president", sometimes "chairman". Judging from http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200609/16/eng20060916_303402.html, it would seem that this person was the Malaysian prime minister, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi. -- Polaris999 15:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


Its 1927 not 1926

I can't believe I appear to be the only one around here who knows Fidel Castro was born in 1927, not 1926. Here's the proof:

] ]

I think Castro & Cuba disagree - remember the 80th birthday party bash, in 2006? GoodDay 21:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Fidel Castro is Dead

Hes dead today. August 24, 2007 2:45PM (EST). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.151.73.165 (talk • contribs)

This source seems pretty shaky, first of all why would the University of Miami know if Castro is dead? second why of all publications would they select a swedish one? Nope not reliable at all we better wait until BBC or CNN report something if they do. - Caribbean~H.Q. 18:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Can someone change the DATE OF DEATH on the page? Even if he happened to have died today, the death is listed as taking place last week on the page.71.56.34.233 19:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
No evidence of death and any claims on the page that he is will be treated as simple vandalism just as this thread is trolling so lets not feed them, SqueakBox 19:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
dude castro is truly dead sorry Apelike 20:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Well when it comes out it'll dominate every newspaper in the world so we wont have any problems sourcing it. Until then we wait, SqueakBox 20:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I already requested full protection for this page as a result of all the speculative edits going on in here. - Caribbean~H.Q. 20:10, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as of today, August 24, 2007 there have been several rumors circulating here in Miami, Florida that Fidel Castro has died. Reportedly, several people from Cuba have called their families here in Miami telling them that Fidel Castro is in fact dead, although it has not officially been announced to Cubans. Nothing has been made official yet, and since these reports on Castro's death began just today the news sources have not begun to pick up the story. In the coming weeks news sources will probably pick up the story, but I doubt the Cuban government will make an official announcement any time soon. Until then, I don’t think this rumor belongs in the article, but of course they are coming from reliable sources directly in Cuba. He’s dead, we’ll just have to wait and see for now. 68.212.153.60 20:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC) Wiki user: Chris150x

If there are rumours in Florida I suggest you folk go tellt eh press. personally I dont believe it but whatever this will be treated as trolling without it first dominating the news, SqueakBox 20:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry I can't undestand what you suggested, can you explain it again? - Caribbean~H.Q. 20:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
That if people believe genuinely that Fidel is dead they should report it to the press not wikipedia, SqueakBox 20:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. These kinds of rumors have been so rampant the past year, that we should wait for a picture of the corpse. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have contacted the local media here in Miami, Florida. They are well aware, but for now it is just simply a rumor and they don't want to start talking about it on the news because that would cause chaos here in South Florida since a great majority of our population is Cuban. I don’t think we will get a picture of the corpse or confirmation from Cuban government any time soon. It could be months until they know for sure. Agreed, the rumor does not belong in the article yet until news sources pick up the story. 68.212.153.60 20:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC) Wiki user: Chris150x

the rumour is genuine but without a proper source even that should not be mentioned, some fascist Swedish newspaper wont do (as was inserted). As an encyclopedia we are fine to just wait, SqueakBox 21:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
What fascist newspaper?? Cite? --85.164.185.108 21:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Norra Skåne reported that Castro was dead yesterday, or at least so I read in another Swedish newspaper (probably Expressen). Now I can neither find the original report from Norra Skåne, nor the quotation in Expressen, so maybe they were taken off the Internet sites of the respective newspapers. I guess I could go to a library to check if there is anything in the paper edition of either newspaper, but since it seems to have disappeared from the Internet altogether, I would presume that everything is a hoax. I think that Expressen wrote that Norra Skåne had got the information from an unspecified source in Miami. Norra Skåne is a very small, regional, Swedish newspaper, so it would seem highly unlikely that they would be the only one to receive any information about the death of Fidel Castro. Maybe it was just something they came up with in order to sell some extra copies of (presumably) yesterday's issue of the newspaper. (Stefan2 12:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC))
Here is the link to the Norra Skåne re Fidel Castro article which was available on the internet as of 30 seconds ago. The article clearly states that the story is totally based on rumors circulating in Miami. -- Polaris999 15:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
We are still missing a cite for that newspaper being fascist. It is a very serious allegation and as such a proper cite is called for. --22:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.185.108 (talk)
I don't regularly read that newspaper, so I can't tell if it's fascist or not, but Swedish Misplaced Pages states that the newspaper supports the Centre Party (which isn't a fascist party) so I would assume that it's not a fascist newspaper. (Stefan2 08:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC))

Prepared to Apologize?

User:Caribbean H.Q., et al: Are you prepared to apologize to your fellow editors when you are proven wrong? --Namescases 21:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Apologies will not be necessary. Rumors are not verifiable. android79 21:19, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • (ec)Under no circumstances. We report sourced and notable information we do not break ground on new stories or use rumours to support our artiicles. Whether he is dead or not has no relevance tot his stance right now, SqueakBox 21:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
    • False. It is more than a rumor and an apology will be necessary. Its been cited by several sources. Given that we have now established that it is not a rumor, are you prepared to apologize to your fellow editors when you are proven wrong? --Namescases 21:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Lol, come on, mate, dont take us for fools. Until its in a reliable source (for me that would be the BBC and I am sure my fellow Americans have their own equivalents) it wont be here, we are an encyclopedia not a news agency, SqueakBox 00:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Links, please? Keep in mind that sources need to be reliable. android79 21:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
        • for one of many. But I am tired of asking if you will apologize or not. We will find out soon enough if you will apologize by yourself, or if we have to go through arbcom. We *will* be made whole. --Namescases 21:28, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Er, no, arbcom wont take any case re the actions of folk like me on thios one, believe me, SqueakBox 00:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
          • a) That's not a reliable source. For news of this magnitude, only a major newspaper or other news outlet will do. b) What's been done here that's actionable by the ArbCom? android79 21:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
            • Well, you are entitled to your opinion on the reliability of that source. Secondly, as of this moment you have not done anything to warrant seeking relief from arbcom. What will be actionable is if you fail to apologize to us once it is crystal clear that he is dead. --21:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Me apologize for enforcing the project's policies? hahahahahaha! - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes. There is this little thing called humility. But again, we'll see what the arbcom results are. --Namescases 21:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Whoa! Perez Hilton is not a notable source! WP:V and WP:RS is what guides here. If it is true, it will be added and sourced. Until a reliable source publishes it and verfication can happen, this needs to be sat on. Spryde 21:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Castro is dead and brother is with him, Police departments in FL getting ready and news will break.

Not on your life kid I won't apologize for enforcing the rules, the request is quite pathetic by itself. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
That is most disappointing, but we will proceed accordingly. --Namescases 21:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
To clarify, the first step will actually be an RfC, not arbcom. Sorry for any confusion. --Namescases 21:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I still think you need to hold off. I have no stake in this fight but wait until something more reliable and verifiable is published! Spryde 21:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course we will hold off. At this point, the misconduct is only potential. --Namescases 21:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, User:Caribbean H.Q., et al are following the rules. There has been no misconduct yet. A little borderline WP:CIVIL maybe but until a reliable verifiable source comes along, this bickering is all for naught. Spryde 21:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
To clarify, we never asserted that there was any misconduct, nor are we seeking relief beyond an apology. --Namescases 21:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Just for my clairfication, who is "we" :-) Spryde 21:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I assume that you work at perezhilton.com? - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Me? Heck no. Spryde 21:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Not you they, your reply just got in the way, sorry for that. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This case wont be going to Rfc or Rfa. Caribbean or I might persuade an admin to do a little blocking but it wont go further than that. I recognise I am a controversial editor but there isnt a single admin that wouldnt support not only my and Caribbean's actions but any reverts of any attempts to Rfc let alone Rfa on this issue. So please stop trolling as it is getting tiresome thias "you've got to apologise if you are wrong". Wrong in what? Fidel may be dead and perhaps not but the line Caribbean and I have taken up is pure policy either way and trying to troll us or anyone following actual policy will just end up in indef blocks for the trollers. Please dont take that path, help us make a better article instead, SqueakBox 00:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
We will bring it to RfC if needed and start that process rolling. I honestly doubt I will be blocked just for suggesting that I bring a matter up for arbitration, as that will be a disastrous precedent indeed. --Namescases 00:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Not in this case. Please read our policies before doing anything else, i'll give you a link to a few. Whetehr Fidel is dead or alive has no bearing whatsoever in this case, oyistes? SqueakBox 00:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Again, what we are seeking is an "Sorry we doubted you" from certain editors. This is not earth shattering; don't you apologize when you accidentally step on someone's foot? --Namescases 00:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If I doubted that there were rumours, well I was wrong and quickly made up for it. The runmours are genuine. And no, they dont have a place on wikipedia, SqueakBox 00:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Again, what I said was we should receive an apology from the editors who removed mentions of Fidel Castro's death from the article on the grounds they are rumors, and said apology should come if and when such a fact becomes crystal clear. I never said Misplaced Pages was a place for rumors. --Namescases 00:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Namescases you can open a RfC if you want, I'm not sure what you are going to debate there but sure go ahead and open one and tell them that you opened it because you demand an apology, but before that make sure you make yourself familiar with WP:HARASS, cheers. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Again, it is premature to open the RfC (see my earlier comments), but if necessary we shall. We shall argue that, as editors we should give and expect apologies when required. Read the relevant article on apology. --Namescases 00:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Great this just keeps getting even more hilarious, Names you (whatever ammount of people that might be) can't do anything, its that simple, you can ask for an apology but if the user(s) don't give it to you there is nothing you can do there is no policy that states someone has to apologize if they offend another users, actually the best you can get is a block for trolling and harrasing other users. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:33, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Well that isn't how the world works. I know I've been forced to apologize before, so if I can do it so can you. --Namescases 01:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I for one know how wikipedia works (and the world too as it happens, its the price one pays for being middle-aged), if you have apologised before you can do so again. please do so, your attacks on Caribbean given his record today are well out of order because he was never sceptical of the rumours, SqueakBox 01:58, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Names, that my apology didnt sink in isnt to your advantage, and Caribbean was actually more on the ball than me, ie he picked up that the rumours were genuine more quickly than I did. And, hey, we are both Caribbean people who speak Spanish so we really care about this issue as I imagine you do, albeit knowing nothing about you, SqueakBox 01:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually I am not Spanish. To be honest I wish nothing but the best for the Cuban people. --Namescases 01:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Me neither but I am a businessman in the Caribbean so I do care about economic growth, and yeah the Cuban people deserve all the best, as do all the Caribbean peoples, SqueakBox 02:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Names it won't happen, that's about it. I will leave it here, if you do open a RfC let me know so I can laught a little. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:21, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Purported death

Alright, The Miami Herald is now reporting on the rumors that have been circulating today regarding Fidel Castro's death. You can find the article here: http://www.miamiherald.com/581/story/214415.html

Would it be OK to add the information to the Fidel Castro page now that an official media source has reported on the story? Its not official yet, but at least we have a solid news source reporting on the matter. 68.212.153.60 21:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think WP does rumors. Let me check policy on that. Spryde 21:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The Miami Herald is reporting on the rumours themselves, not the content of the rumour. I should think that the MH is exactly the reliable source needed if there were legitimate reports about Castro's death - they would be amongst the first to find out - and by their expressed view I would think that they are giving little credence to the rumours. I think it is still too early to even note this recent rash of rumour. LessHeard vanU 21:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Facist newspaper? Cut the bullshit ok? I honestly think it's true this time. Something is going on.

Citing "reliable" sources at the Miami University, the Swedish broad sheet newspaper Norra Skåne reports that Cuban leader Fidel Castro is dead. (Norra Skåne)

Hmm, I don't know what to say, but the Norra Skåne newspaper is not known for making false claims, so who knows... --Camptown 22:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The journalist at Norra Skåne newspaper that wrote about it was later threatened to death by several cuban journalists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Namram (talk • contribs) 22:13, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

"We received the news from a very reliable source in Miami", the chief editor of Norra Skåne says, adding that the Mr. Castro's death is expected to be officially announced shortly... Well, well.... (The Expressen) --Camptown 22:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Another source --User:Charitwo/Sig 05:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Blogs aren't a reliable source. The only legitimate source that are reporting on this are simply reporting on the phenomenon of what Perez Hilton's blog started. Nothing is confirmed yet, and it has been almost three days since they have been saying "they will announce it in a few minutes". 72 hours later, nothings announced. Castro just released another essay. From the grave? Misplaced Pages isn't going to put up blog articles OR news articles that are saying he MIGHT be dead, thats for the premature death rumour section. - IamMcLovin 05:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Page protection

I have been asked to protect this page and have (for the moment) declined, because I want us to be able to respond quickly and make rapid updates if Castro's death is announced. However, if people continue to add it to the page, in violation of WIkipedia's rules, I will fully protect the page. Please, understand that we don't have to be the "first" to report it. We're not a news service. Everyone take a big deep breath and let's wait and see. If the edit war continues, I will protect the page. - Philippe | Talk 22:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Death

I have, on very good authority, learned that Castro died today (24 AUG 07), sometime before 1430 hrs EST. Rodak1 22:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

do you or do you not have any good source? 23:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.203.24 (talk)

He's dead. No credible source yet. Give it a day, max. http://www.nbc6.net/news/13972518/detail.html --Camipco 05:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe Perez Hilton is a credible source. 69.183.31.4 05:49, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

A good source is the BBC, CNN, Granma etc, nothing less will do, SqueakBox 22:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Someone suggested that if an announcement of this nature were about to be made, we would see a lot more police on the streets of Havana. No sign of any such yet. -- Beardo 21:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Phenomenon of death rumors

I think a section of the very phenomenon of the continuous rumors of Castro's death might well be appropriate. --Camptown 22:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Forbes is reporting on the phenomenon. Rumors on Castro's Health Swirl in Miami TransUtopian 23:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This is just an event. Making a phenomenon out of it would be WP:OR --lucid 23:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

And a POV. --Boricuaeddie 23:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm...k, can we have a more reliable source than Perez Hilton ..such as AP or Miami Harold on the Castro death rumors going on today. I dont think Perez is a very reliable source, he's just a blogger, put up Miami Harold or AP as a source, they had articles on the matter too. 68.212.155.163 02:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

We have a death rumours section already, and it wouldnt be inappropriate to add to it, but do sensitively and using good sources, SqueakBox 02:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Hugo Chávez has just announced that not only is Fidel Castro not dead, he will "never die". A somewhat confusing statement (at least as reported) that perhaps raises more questions than it answers. See Chávez re Castro immortality for details. -- Polaris999 17:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Well if its sourced we must add that he will never die! lol, SqueakBox 19:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
What he said was: "For those who want Fidel to die, they are going to end up frustrated because Fidel Castro will never die. He will always live on." I think he meant that his "ideals" would live on, not necessarily himself. IamMcLovin 08:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Or perhaps he meant something like this: Sharon's condition unchanged after 2 years -- Polaris999 22:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Added the story about him publishing an essay on August 26 (today) from the International Herald Tribune onto the premature death rumors section. - IamMcLovin 19:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Apology

Looks like we owe the editors that doubted us an apology. Speaking for myself, I am sorry about it. --Namescases 16:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheers, mate. Appreciated, SqueakBox 22:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
It has absolutely nothing to do with doubt. It's about WP:RS, even if we had seen it with our own eyes --lucid 17:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Death of Castro just announced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.221.118.231 (talk) 03:20, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

No...it wasn't. - IamMcLovin 08:16, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Again (as I requested before), let's wait until CNN reports & confirms Castro demise, before adopting it to the article. GoodDay 21:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
We certainly will do...well I'll be waiting for the BBC, but that is the same thing really, SqueakBox 22:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Why not Reuters or the Associated Press? That's where everyone else gets their news anyone --lucid 08:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
In agreement with 'SqueakBox'; let's wait until international news coverage - confirms. GoodDay 21:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

IT IS NOT A RUMOR CASTRO HAS BEEN DEAD FOR OVER A WEEK I HAVE A FAMILY FRIEND FROM CUBA AND SHE HAS TALKED TO HER RELATIVES WHO ALL SAY CASTRO HAS DIED. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.83.72 (talk) 22:06, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

If it isn't a rumor, and all your Cuban relatives are in the know for some reason, there are other people that aren't Cuban's, including news correspondents. These correspondents know people within the Cuban community and it isn't possible for something like that to be kept quiet except for all the Cuban families. The only source that actually reported it was PerezHilton.com and Castro has also been public last Sunday and Monday. CNN and all the other have simply reported on the rumor. Get over it, without any really sources, even if we don't hear about him for thirty years, we need SOURCES. IamMcLovin 23:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


Castro is not dead until a body is seen. It doesn;t matter who says it, I will not believe it until I hear it from a reliable source, accompanied by a picture of him, dead. Until then, he is alive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.142.244 (talk) 21:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Afterall, he's gonna live 'til 150 (so his doctors, once predicted). Anways, nothing will be changed until international news networks confirm his demise. GoodDay 23:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Just "(born August 13, 1926)"?

Is there any kind of policy on what follows DOB in an article on someone who may or may not be dead? Does it just read as any other article on a currently living person? I don't belong to any side of this "Is castro dead?" debate going on, but I'd say the rumours are too strong to just ignore the possibility that he is already deceased in the opening. 75.69.110.227 02:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Castro is alive until proven dead. Besides which, he's not dead. Grandmasterka 02:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I know what WP:VERIFY says, thank you very much.

Think of it this way. If someone was lost at sea, you might never prove when or if they died. However, you use the knowledge that they were lost at sea to come to the reasonable conclusion that in all likelihood they are dead. Would you leave the opening of their wikipedia article with just a date of birth? Based on a substantial amount of information from various international media sources over the past year or so, we know that it's very possible that Castro has died (or that his health is continuing to fail). This isn't original research, but it is speculation. But my point here is that it doesn't matter whether he's dead or not, it matters that his health is the subject of widespread rumors and speculation. It's unlikely that so many people would pick up on whispers of Castro's death if the claim had absolutely no basis of merit. Rather than leave the article in the state you would find it if Castro was in perfect health like any other living person article on wikipedia, I feel like something should identify this in the opening. You can add speculation about pretty much anything to wikipedia as long as it's properly sourced. Why can't you add speculation relating to one of the simplest pieces of information in the entire article? 75.69.110.227 06:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a lot of people that think that the earth is flat, too. That doesn't make them correct. Until an official or extremely reliable announcement is given, Misplaced Pages should assume they are still alive. If someone was lost at sea, we'd wait at least for a formal funeral or such before we add anything, and we'd still only put it down in the death section. Right now, they're nothing more than rumours, and shouldn't be treated as such. --lucid 06:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
In addition, Osama Bin Laden has been reported dead for awhile now but Misplaced Pages still does not have a date of death because there is no verifibility of it. Spryde 11:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Has he? I suppose several magazines have claimed that over the years, but how would they know? do they have a special correspondent in Al-Qaeda or something? did they find his body in a river? My point is, just because someone says a person dead, does not prove in any way he is actually dead, so until then lets just keep it as is. IamMcLovin 18:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  1. http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_238083047.html
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