Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:55, 12 September 2007

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 15:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 14:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC).

• Epbr123 (talk · contribs · logs)

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

The user has engaged in an "article for deletion", nominating articles of the same ilk without use of AfD nomination bundling. Furthermore, the user has engaged in personal attacks such as name calling, demonstrated a lack of civility in his dealings with people on talk and AfD pages, and edits to pages (such as this) he himself has nominated for deletion in order to make deletion more likely.

In addition to his attacks against users who do not succumb to his point of view, the user has also willfully attacked an administrator who attempted to warn him about his uncivil behavior regarding the AfD process, claiming false etiquette accusations.

The culmination of the dispute happens to lie mainly with the List of big-bust models and performers article at present. His unilateral attempts to enforce his point of view on what should be criteria for such an article go beyond being bold and into a perverse form of establishing his ownership of the article, attacking everyone who, again, does not agree with his point of view and hounding anyone who votes "keep" with a never-ending stream of open-ended questions designed to wear the resistance of contributors down in order to discount their votes.

Desired outcome

This is a summary written by users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus.

The desired outcome is that User:Epbr123 desist in engaging in personal attacks, disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, and coached in the proper methods employed by civil, level-headed contributors with regard to conflict resolution and constructively contributing to Misplaced Pages without disrupting or assaulting fellow editors who do not agree. Failing this, the user should be placed on probation or banned from Misplaced Pages for a period of time as determined by those commenting on this RfC.

It would also be appropriate for Epbr123 to form a better, more appropriate understanding of when and how to nominate article(s) for deletion, because many of his AfD-related contributions are disruptive and seem to stem from a spiteful or bad-faith attempt to settle disputes that do not require AfDs, or to get articles deleted (as opposed to a more objective goal: deleting articles if they honestly should be deleted). His actions in the future should reflect a better understanding of deletion policy and how to participate in deletion discussions properly (regarding to deletion policy specifically, as well as regarding personal attacks and disruptive editing in general).

Description

I've taken the comments from User:Cheeser1 as they were posted the Wikiquette Alerts page, since he explains the situation quite aptly:

On this very WQA, Epbr took it upon himself to accuse an intervening administrator of etiquette violations just because the admin told him to stop disruptively nominating articles for deletion. He also made a personal attack against me calling me a "stalker" and a "schoolkid" in order to discredit my complaints against him. Interesting that his condescending "schoolmaster" approach was the initial reason this WQA was opened (although it's widened quite a bit in its scope since then). He nominated 11 articles for deletion in a single day, from Notable Usenet personalities, but instead of grouping them, he nominated them all at once (this is why the admin warned him). He justified it using an (invalid) citation of WP:SNOW, here. He has been extraordinarily uncivil for example. He constantly marks people's comments as "ILIKEIT" and makes other unfounded remarks in order to antagonize and discredit them.

The diffs for Epbr123's actions are listed below.

Sorry, I know that's a lot of links . If you only click one, click this one instead (note: this one is not included on the list). All these antagonistic, non-constructive comments, the result is undeniably to sour the AfD process and make it impossible to work together to discuss policy and work to form consensus on the issue. Instead, these bad-faith AfD nominations are marked with continued acts of unreasonable and uncivil behavior. It seems entirely inappropriate to respond condescendingly, or at least non-constructively, to every single "keep" vote. He even admits that his AfD was an attempt to prove a point about the subjectivity of the criteria - a point he could have made on the article's talk page, something to be discussed and resolved with other editors. Instead, he jumped ship on the discussion, because he has decided unilaterally that the article wasn't worth keeping. He's made it a point to drag irrelevant topics into the AfD by asking pedantic leading questions, as pointed out here by Xhir. He believes that the AfD page is the place to discuss content issues (see here). It appears that he believes that he is in charge of clean up, and that when edit wars ensue, he is in charge of fixing it by AfD'ing the whole thing (see here). He also seems to like to accuse people of the violations that they are accusing him of (when accused of bad faith, he accuses bad faith, and the same with POINT and CIVIL). He seems to believe that he is the only one in charge of deciding whether an article can be properly sourced. He seems to think he is appointed by Misplaced Pages to delete bad articles - he thinks he speaks for the entire Misplaced Pages community (despite the fact that many of his currently-running AfDs have snowballed-keep). He seems to be very proud of it, in fact. And yet he would accuse an admin of an abuse of power with no evidence whatsoever. His behavior has, from the start, been entirely out of line. I first encountered him here on the WQA, where he had accused User:georgewilliamherbert of abusing administrator power by warning him about his AfDs. I looked and was immediately surprised to see him going on what can only be described as a deletion spree. I can't speculate as to why, but User:Dekkappai has some ideas. Regardless, this is way out of hand. I believe something needs to be done. I may have more to add later, but I am fairly busy and may not be able to find the time. But this is what I've come up with now, in a bit of spare time I had this evening. Of course, there are also plenty of other users making points that I have not covered here (like Xhir's point about Epbr trying to move a page in the middle of an AfD he started for that page). Oh, and one more point: he lists every single one of his edits as "minor." Many people filter out minor edits, and he would effectively be able to edit without being noticed by these people. He could respond to their points, appropriately or not, and they'd never even see it. The "This is a minor edit" button is not supposed to be abused in this fashion.

I would like to elaborate/summarize points regarding this user's conduct regarding AfDs:

It appears as though Epbr123 has barraged a single topic (usenet), and its small set of primary editors, with a dozen AfDs (which should have been combined) in the hopes of getting as many deleted as possible - these actions go against the relevant procedure, and are reflective of his approach to this matter, which also involved considering no alternatives for deletion, which one is required to consider before nominating an AfD. Additionally, he initiated this AfD after he unilaterally that the article would never be improved, despite the fact that this (allegedly impossible) improvement is one relating to original research, which does not form immediate or automatic grounds for deletion (even if it were completely impassable as he contends). This reflects a poor understanding of deletion policy, applied in a spiteful and bad-faith way, in order to settle things like content disputes.

Evidence of disputed behavior

Unsubstantiated accusations of "bad faith" or frivolous accusations of "ILIKEIT":

Personally insulting responses:

Other non-constructive responses to keep votes:

Other non-constructive comments:

Epbr123's filing of an alert at WQA alleging Georgewilliamherbert's "lack of etiquette" in his communication regarding the disruptive, nonconstructive nature of his AfDs against Usenet personalities:

Applicable policies and guidelines

{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

1. No personal attacks, which Epbr123 has blatantly disregarded in his pursuit to delete articles, by attacking those who do not agree with him.
2. Taking ownership of articles in order that he can delete them, and then put them on his user page as a "trophie" of article he's "helped to delete".
3. Disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, as evidenced by the onslaught of AfDs that he's brought, particularly for Notable Usenet personalities and List of big-bust models and performers.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

1. Orangemike's attempt to resolve the issue of multiple AfD nominations for Usenet personalities.
2. Pmanderson files a WQA complaint against Epbr123 in an attempt to resolve the AfD and behavioral disputes.
3. Georgewilliamherbert's first warning about his AfDs being disruptive.
4. - Georgewillimaherbert's second attempt at working with Epbr123 regarding his AfD nominations of Usenet personalities.
5. - Joe Beaudoin Jr.'s first attempt at convincing Epbr123 that his means of doing things did not justify the desired end result.
6. - Bfigura notifies Epbr123 of the necessity of using WP:BUNDLE when bundling nominations.
7. And, of course, the most recent conversations at which lead to the necessity of the RfC:

1. Misplaced Pages: Wikiquette alerts#User:Epbr123
2. Misplaced Pages: Wikiquette alerts#User:Georgewilliamherbert - Epbr123's claims of being attacked and "stalked" by users are also here.
3. Talk:List of big-bust models and performers
4. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of big-bust models and performers

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

1. Joe Beaudoin Jr. 16:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
2. Cheeser1 18:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
3. Georgewilliamherbert 20:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
4. The Rypcord. 04:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
5. Xihr 04:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
6. Dekkappai 17:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

1. Bfigura 19:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
2. Slander 01:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Regarding personal attacks and the possibility that this a bad faith nomination, then I have no comments - the diffs should speak for themselves. I tried to clear up the debate a few times, not because I agree with Epbr (which I do not), but because I felt that he in turn was being derided by most people on the talk page (sometimes at least bordering on personal attacks), but mostly because people were strawmanning. I understand his frustration and some of his behavior on the talk page should only be judged when taking this into account.

Without passing judgement on whether this user habitually nominates for deletion in bad faith or whether this was initially the case here, then I do have a comment on the last part of the nomination reasoning, which states that Epbr is assuming his POV is correct and that he is being too bold. In my opinion, Epbr does not rely only on his dislike of the article nor, as people have been claiming, on the fact that current inclusion problems means we should delete. Epbr has, if nothing else, revised his statement and is claiming that these problems are unsolvable and that the article can therefore never become properly sourced. We may not agree, but this is not just pushing a POV - he is stating a real problem which, if his assesment is correct, means the article should be deleted.

Please note that I am not saying there is no case here, only that (at least towards the end) Epbr has been misrepresented and reviled for something which I do not think he is entirely guilty of. Also, at least some of the bad faith assumptions and personal attacks are directed against him.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Lundse 12:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete. Users signing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Outside Views") should not edit the "Response" section.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

I'll respond to each piece of evidence of disputed behavior individually.

Unsubstantiated accusations of "bad faith" or frivolous accusations of "ILIKEIT":

1. - I was perhaps a bit childish for responding to a "IDONTLIKE nom" accusation with an "ILIKEIT !vote" accusation, but it clearly wasn't just me in the wrong. The reasons for his accusation were unsubstantiated as I had never claimed Usenet was non-notable.
2. - I was defending myself against the bad faith accusations, but I was wrong to suggest that all the opposing comments were bad faith.
3. - again, I was a bit childish. I responded to what I thought was a baseless bad faith accusation with another bad faith accusation.
4. - defending myself against the bad faith accusations. I don't regret this.
5. - defending myself against the bad faith accusations. I don't regret this.
6. - this is the same edit as one already mentioned.

Personally insulting responses:

1. - the anonymous user pointed out that everyone was acting like mastodons; I merely pointed out that his aggressive comments also exhibited mastodon behaviour. This was perhaps too inflammatory of me, but I don't think it does any harm to notify someone when they're being hypocritical.
2. - this was childish of me. I replied to percieved personal attack with a sarcastic comment.
3. - I reverted this edit a few seconds later as I misunderstood what the other user said. I thought he implied that the article was notable as it had "notable" in the title.

Other non-constructive responses to keep votes:

1. - I didn't intend to sound aggressive. I was just pointing out flaws in his argument.
2. - again, I reverted this edit a few seconds later as I misunderstood what the other user said. I thought he meant the list should stay just because the people in it are notable.
3. - I was getting frustrted at this point, so I was overly stern. The user appeared to have misunderstood the main issues.
4. - same as the previous edit
5. - merely pointing out that a disagreement wouldn't have occured over who should be included if the inclusion criteria were clearly defined.
6. - merely pointing out that an article needs reliable sources
7. - a response to two "keep" comments given without an accompanying rationale.

Other non-constructive comments:

1. - just pointing out a fact to support my argument
2. - the "keeps despite being original research" comment was too offensive of me, but did appear to be true from looking at comments made.
3. - no regrets about this.

Epbr123's filing of an alert at WQA alleging Georgewilliamherbert's "lack of etiquette" in his communication regarding the disruptive, nonconstructive nature of his AfDs against Usenet personalities:

1. - this was far too inflammatory of me, but I felt justified at the time as I found it offensive to be called disruptive for making good faith AfDs. None of the Usenet personalities I nominated had any reliable sources at the time to back up their notability. Some of them still don't, despite surviving their AfDs. My decision not to group the Usenet nominations together, as per WP:BUNDLE, was justified and supported by an experienced user here. There were twelve Usenet personality articles listed at Notable Usenet personalities which I did not AfD, disproving the allegations that I am anti-Usenet and nominate articles unselectively.

Other

• - I regret using the word stalker as it was too strong. Our dispute began on the Usenet AfDs, but his subsequest involvement in the big-bust AfD and Wikiquette did seem as though he was following me. My "schoolkid" remark was a misunderstanding over the term "graduate school" on his userpage. I did honestly think he was a schoolkid at the time.
• - I did admit to trying to prove a point here, however, the point was that I thought the article should be deleted. Not the great confession it was made out to be above. Let's not forget that trying to prove a point is only bad if it damages Misplaced Pages.
• - this was the reason why I stopped editting the article and AfDed it.
• - this was my reply to the argument that I should have discussed it with Wikiproject Porn before nominating it. Anyway, the people at the project, most of whom are participating on this page, would not have changed my mind over the articles permanently subjective nature.
• - this was not a pedantic question by myself; I was demonstrating why the article will permanently be subjective.
• - similar to previous diff
• - my reply to the theory that the list should be for porn stars with DD+ breasts.

In summary, I've made a few minor mistakes in the past few days, but so have many others here. I have done my part in trying to resolve this situation: , .

The only thing I think I need to be punished for is making the big-bust AfD knowing that it would upset a lot of people. However, the attacks I have recieved for it is probably punishment enough. In defence of my bad-faith nomination accusations, I would like to remind people of one of my initial quotes on the big-bust talk page, "I hadn't thought it necessary to list my reasons at the start as I imagined the big-bust genre to be a well-defined objective genre, which everyone would easily agree on. Now that I've found it isn't, I'm very tempted to nominate this article for deletion. However, I'm willing to try to make the inclusion criteria less subjective first." The inclusion criteria couldn't be made less subjective, so I nominated it.

This is my evidence of disputed behavior by others involved.

User:Xihr

• - WP:OWN issues over List of big-bust models and performers. Edit-warred over two seperate disputes and violated the WP:3RR. He appeared unwilling to discuss the conflicts on the article talk page. Bad faith assumption about models I added to the article; User:Dekkappai agreed on a criteria for inclusion of porn movies stars and I was just adding some people who fit that criteria. I feel his WP:OWN issues mean that only he may decide who is added.

User:Dekkappai

• Became uncivil when I wouldn't accept his side of an argument during our discussion over whether the article could be made subject. Made a bad-faith assumption when I removed some people who were clearly not big-bust performers.

User:Cheeser1

• I have been reviled for making counter-arguments to every keep vote on the big-bust AfD but he made counter-arguments for each of my counter-arguments. I can't see the difference.

User:Rypcord

• Incivility here and here. Called me a vandal for correct my spelling mistake.

I believe that User:Georgewilliamherbert was acting in good faith and was just trying to protect articles on Usenet, which he has fond memories of. I believe User:Joe Beaudoin Jr. was acting in good-faith but I'd rather he'd tried to discuss the issues with me rather than starting this Request for comment.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Epbr123 14:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by Septentrionalis

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

I believe I can really comment as an outside view, since my post to WP:WQA has nothing to do with the issue under dispute, even though it turned into a dry run for this RfC. Not expecting an RfC, I did !vote in one of the AfD's as it floated past. It does, however, suggest that Epbr123 is having a bad week, or possibly a bad year.

On the matter on hand, most of the posts complained of are unwise, and at least somewhat uncivil. The WP:MASTODON post here suggests that Epbr123 could stand to read the essay; WP:MASTODON is not about the herd of independent minds; it's about not getting into a fighting frenzy.

This appears, btw, to be most of the problem. It is clear from the diffs that Epbr123 answered most or all of the !votes to keep the articles he AfD'd. This sort of chivvying is worse than a civility breach, because it is also a blunder: it will provoke sympathy for the beleaguered voters, and opposition to the Cause being so emotionally pushed.

My post to the Etiquette alert was about this remark of Epbr123's about FAC: If reviewers fix articles themselves, the main authors don't learn anything. If you guys fix these things yourself, you'll be more likely to remember to do them with your future articles. This still seems to me to be the voice of the country schoolmaster with his pupils, and uncalled for. (It is an aggravation of this that Epbr123 uses criteria as a singular here and in the links above. Even a country schoolmaster ought to know more than his pupils.)

Epbr123 is also one of the editors who make FAC so much fun, by insisting on every jot and tittle of WP:MOS, even the distinction between hyphens and en-dashes, without commenting materially on content. On this matter, I agree with Bishonen's comments here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

1. I do not endorse the complaint above, because I'm not sure Cheeser's analysis of Epbr123's motives is proven; but I certainly cannot endorse his response, with its repeated (although incomplete) insistence that many of his remarks were perfectly justified. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
2. Bishonen | talk 21:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC).
3. I can agree with most of what is said here. It is still possible that Epbr123 is having a very bad week, month, even year -- and if that's the case, then it would probably be in the best interests of the project to go on a wikibreak. Misplaced Pages is not an outlet for invoking catharsis and it is not our duty as contributors to wade through it. -- Joe Beaudoin Jr. 21:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Outside view by Maralia

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

I am including the summary I used in my own analysis, as I believe it contains some information that was not previously addressed.

AFDs

• Nominations
  • Editor's past nomination of two groups of related articles without bundling them was technically within policy but believed by many to be intentionally misleading.
  • Editor nominated List of big-bust models and performers while there was active discussion (in which he participated) on the article's talk page concerning improving the article. Additionally, while the AFD has been open, he has persisted in substantially rewriting it and adding questionable items to the list as well as proposing renaming it. Editor was subsequently accused of nominating this article in bad faith and essentially manipulating it to make it more deletable.
  • Editor has nominated many articles for deletion without making an attempt to improve them or tag them for improvement needed.
  • Editor maintains, on his user page, a list of articles he has helped delete. Others have interpreted this as a sign that he takes pride in getting articles deleted.
• Process
  • Editor in many cases responded to each opposing !vote in an attempt to discredit it. (numerous other examples previously cited by others)
  • Editor posted comments to the closing admin in which he characterized responses as bad faith or original research.
    • "The !votes so far are 6 delete, 3 keep per procedural reasons, and 6 keep despite it being original research. Epbr123 09:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)"
    • "Note to closing admin Please ignore these bizarre bad faith claims. I have no idea what they refer to and they seem to be being used as a way to keep the article despite it being original research. Epbr123 17:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)"

Behavior

• Behavior towards others
  • Editor disparaged editors with opposing views as "schoolkids", "kids", or by otherwise remarking on their education or age.
  • Editor characterized numerous AFD responses of others as 'bad faith'.
  • Editor was the subject of a WQA by an editor who believed he was needlessly condescending in an FA review.
• Perception and handling of correction/advice from others
  • A WQA complaint created by the editor alleging abuse was widely perceived as frivolous.
  • Editor objected to comments about his understanding of policy, labeling them as 'attacks', yet used similar language when commenting to other editors. When another editor posted "you fail to understand the policies of Misplaced Pages and the reasons why the process behind them exists" , the editor responded "Not keen on the personal attack". However, the editor himself used similar language with others: "This shows a lack of understanding of the multiple deletion procedure."

I am rather appalled by the blatant agenda pushing, attempts to manipulate outcomes, and lack of civility evidenced by the editor. After looking further at his other participation across Misplaced Pages, though, I find that he has a productive and generally non-confrontational history here, and I believe what we have here is an editor who honestly misunderstands the role of a nominator at AFD. Rather than proposing a deletion and trusting in the process to take it from there, he appears to be treating 'his' AFD nominations like candidates for GA/FA (processes with which he is experienced), by attempting to herd the articles through the process toward his end goal. This by no means excuses his lapses in civility, or the questionable methods he has employed - but it may, for me at least, answer 'what the hell was he thinking?'.

My WP:OR musings on his motives aside, I am not satisfied with the editor's summarizing these incidents as 'I've made a few minor mistakes'. These are more than a few, and more than minor in nature.

Users who endorse this summary:

1. Maralia 01:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
2. Joe Beaudoin Jr. 02:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
3. Bfigura 02:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
4. I can endorse most of this; it is not absolutely clear why adding to the list is disruptive, or that Epbr123 used his expansions to support his AfD, but I may be missing a diff - this is a long dispute. Nor is it required to attempt to improve all articles before AfD'ing them; some articles are hopeless. (I say nothing on whether these were.) But with those exceptions, I agree with the rest. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
5. Most of those comments seem factually accurate. I disagree with your interpretation of those facts, though. Epbr123 09:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
6. Maralia has summed up my feelings on this matter (aside from my "lulz wikidrama" sentiments and my opinion of Epbr's apparent anti-pornography crusade) perfectly. Thank you very much for an eloquent and, most importantly, objective response. --Slander 13:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Users who endorse this summary:

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.