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Latvia Unassessed

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Former countries Unassessed

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Request for Comment: Noncompliant

Template:RFChist Template:RFCpol

Does the article contain in your opinion any violations of WP:NPOV ,WP:Verifiability, WP:What Misplaced Pages is not and WP:OR?!! 08:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Statements by those previously involved

Comments by User:Novickas

Responding to request for comments at WP:Lith.

The article as written looks NPOV to me. Only 1 citation needed tag is in it; the German occupation section does need some inline citations.

The title could be considered POV, and hence problematic, because a significant minority - the Russian government - objects to the term "occupation". Their acknowlegment of that word would open the door to discussing reparations to this and other former Soviet republics. Citation needed, but shouldn't be too hard to find, and would add a valuable perspective.

The majority of the article covers Latvia during WWII, so I would vote for that name - with a good-sized aftermath section. More could be put into other articles, and the lead would have to be rewritten (which is of course not a trivial task). It does seem customary for historians to divide the 20th century into WWI, interwar, WWII, and post-war eras - that would also accomodate the expansions that will come to Latvian history on WP.

It would be a loss if this were to be derailed from Good Article over the title - so much good work and references. I completely understand the wish to link the series of occupations together - one long nightmare - but also think readers will find the events dreadful no matter how it's titled.

Hope this all works out. I would be happy to help when the dust settles a bit. Novickas 15:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

PS The pictures are definitely POV unless they can be balanced with pictures of Latvians in the concentration camps - a well-referenced event - and those pictures are nonexistent. Novickas 15:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments by User:Vecrumba

The article has not been allowed to develop because of ceasless attacks and diversion of editing resources into these endless disputes. Absolutely zero evidence has been produced from any reputable source by any editor opposing the article title or content to support the official Russian position, therefore it is noted appropriately but not dealt with as an "equal but opposing viewpoint." It is merely a "version" of history.
     The article is specifically NOT just about WWII, it only appears to be that way currently because, in fact, only the very first section regarding the initial Soviet occupation (prior to Nazi invasion/occupation) has been completed.
     I expect we'll have the usual accusations of tenditious editing, allegations of Nazi hate speech, denouncements of equating of Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe with the Holocaust, accusations of Holocaust denial, representation of the majority of Latvians being all to eager for Nazi guns so they could shoot Jews... I believe I've covered them all.
     Now that I've put the stake in the ground, yet again, I'm hoping to sit out this round of RfCs. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• As long as we're at it, I have not seen it pop up yet in both categories. If we're going to get the widest audience, let's make sure we get one. Hope springs eternal. I wish Termer luck in this venture, the last editor from the oppose-those-who-oppose-occupation camp who tried to bring things to a head eventually gave up and abandoned Misplaced Pages. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments by User:Termer

For now I'm just going to continue counting on Encyclopædia Britannica as the reliable Encyclopædia instead of WP. The Encyclopædia that is widely considered to be the most scholarly of encyclopedias. The encyclopedia that has an article:Latvia The Soviet occupation and incorporation , the article this one here is based on including the events from 1940, from July 1941 to October 1944. The article that in Encyclopædia Britannica includes A national renaissance developed in the late 1980s in connection with the Soviet campaigns for glasnost (“openness”) and perestroika + Soviet efforts to restore the earlier situation culminated in violent incidents in Riga in January 1991 . After a failed coup in Moscow in August, the Latvian legislature declared full independence, which was recognized by the Soviet Union on September 6.. Thanks!--Termer 18:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Title and scope.

This article covers both Soviet occupations thus time limit was not justified. I have moved it but I suspect that after discussion of over an appropriate name there may be another move. Latvian SSR is an article about a member state of SU not the occupation itself so merging the second occupation to that one is not appropriate.I hope this settles the issue.--Alexia Death the Grey 11:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought we are getting somewhere from Termer's actions but since AD renewed the Soapbox, I am restoring the tag for the same reasons described multiple times at the talk page of the original article. Soapboxing won't be tolerated. --Irpen 15:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You were getting exactly nowhere, to get somewhere you need consensus. Two people aren't it. Please be specific, WHAT exactly you don't like as a list. It looks VERY sourced to me.--Alexia Death the Grey 15:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I have moved here the RFC and the tags that were lost in the splits.Feel free to continue, Im goning to change your noncmpilant tag to disputed until you provide proof.--Alexia Death the Grey 15:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Disputed" applies only to factual accuracy. The article also suffers from WP:SYNT as explained ad naseum. Do not remove good-faithed tags over editor's objections. I've said all there is to it in the previous discussions. --Irpen 15:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually the tag is now "POV" because you haven provided any material to support others. You are saying this POV is not neutral...--Alexia Death the Grey 15:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

To have a dispute you need to provide SPECIFIC complaints. Why haven't you done so?--Alexia Death the Grey 15:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

(EC) I've done so multiple times. That you refuse to acknowledge what you don't like is a poor excuse. You can't force me to repeat the objections time after time by not addressing them properly and then asking again what they are. --Irpen 16:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You haven't. Slapping on MORE tags on top of the article does not make it more specific. Occupation is not A pov. Its a term used by sources, lots of the linked in the article.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, "Soviet occupations of Latvia" is even more clumsy title for the article than Occupations of Latvia. Occupied Latvia was clearly preferred on the talk page over there. Now, once and for all, lets get few things straight, since Latvia was incorporated into USSR in 1941, illegally or not, it doesn't matter. There always is going to no consensus regarding occupied Latvia 1944-1991. Since WP is working on building a consensus, and it doesn't make any difference how the story gets told here, I'd suggest Alexia Death the Grey restore the title Occupied Latvia (1940-41). As a compromise, so that it could be interpreted either ways, I'd also suggest Occupied Latvia 1940, or Occupation of Latvia 1940 once some editors think that mentioning Occupation in the title has such an importance. Since countries get occupied during wars anyway, it just comes with it, I personally would prefer Latvia in WWII that would include all other aspects of the events and the story than just "occupation". Thanks--Termer 15:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Occupied Latvia is a country in a state, even more so when limited to 1940-41. It would be an article of the same type as Latvian SSR This is not it. That misunderstanding is the root of your problem. Occupied Latvia is territory in a state and would constitute retasking of the article as this article is about the occupation as a process and a concept itself and that retasking as you can see made a LOT of editors unhappy. Consensus should not prosecuted at the expense of sourced facts.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Alexia Death the Grey, didn't get any of this what you were saying -"country in a state"? Please consider renaming the article like suggested to reach a consensus. Thanks--Termer 16:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it does seem weird no that I look at the explanation. I'll try again. This article is about historic events/phenomena in a territory spanning much bigger timespan than what you are proposing. You try to make it about a territory in a very restrictive time frame. You are trying to retask the article to be about something out of a very different category not speaking about the fact that this move would mean pruning the work of many editors. And with that other editors, like me, are not agreeing. You do not seem to understand consensus at all. Consensus happens when everybody agree. I and others don't agree, there is no consensus and you cannot achieve any by moving this page around. However you are welcome to start an article Occupied Latvia(1940-1941) and link it under see also on this page. That article would be limited to the time frame proposed, talking about only issues concerning that particular period of occupation focusing on the occupied territory itself.--Alexia Death the Grey 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Unassessed Latvia articles
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