| Revision as of 18:21, 15 September 2007 editFeloniousMonk (talk | contribs)18,409 edits →Serious Violation of NPOV: reply to comment← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:32, 15 September 2007 edit undoMatthewHoffman (talk | contribs)25 edits →Serious Violation of NPOVNext edit → | ||
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| :Yes, no doubt ID proponents object to the term being identified for what it is, but their view is in the extreme minority in the field they make their claim, the scientific community is the majority view there. And the scientific community says ID is creationism. As does the courts, educators, etc. Please take the time to read ]. ] 18:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC) | :Yes, no doubt ID proponents object to the term being identified for what it is, but their view is in the extreme minority in the field they make their claim, the scientific community is the majority view there. And the scientific community says ID is creationism. As does the courts, educators, etc. Please take the time to read ]. ] 18:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC) | ||
| ::A) You are acting in what seems to be a very biased and partisan way. You claim the "scientific community" says that ID is creationism, but no source is provided excepta public policy paper, which has nothing to do with a "scientific consensus". B) A term's definition must be understood according to the originators of the term. The opponents of an idea can't change its meaning and then attack it based on their altered definition. ID, according to its advocates, does not assume the existence of God, even though it is certainly compatible with such a belief, and such a belief may be the motive for promoting ID. You need to answer these objections according to Misplaced Pages policy. ] 18:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC) | |||
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Fair use rationale for Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg
Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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"Intelligent design creationism"
I've placed brackets (and a ?) on 'creationism' in the statement "intelligent design " in this article because, even though I'm aware of how much a problem I.D. is for Scientismists (that is Sceintific Fundamentalists), I.D. in-and-of-itself is NOT creationism and neither should it be PURPOSELY expounded as such. Some supporters of I.D. may in fact have creationist leanings but that does not mean all do, nor does it mean that they automatically must assume {stereotypically implied by opponents} that they believe the "intelligence" is a deity of whatever theological conceptualized sort. Indeed this was not a very OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED description of the idea of Irreducible Complexity. --Carlon 19:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- The place to argue whether ID is creationism is at Talk:Intelligent design. As far as this article is concerned, the source quoted immediately after the phrase 'intelligent design creationism' uses that phrase to describe the ID campaign.
I'll edit the article to make that a little more clear.Another editor already reverted that change; obviously I'm not the only one who thinks it problematic. Sheffield Steelstalkers 21:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, the place to argue the point of view isn't on article talk pages, though the question of the wording is appropriately discussed here. The reliable secondary source cited is clear that ID is indeed creationism, and we should not give undue weight to the religiously motivated legalistic denials of its proponents which are essentially primary sources. .. dave souza, talk 21:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- It is very strange to claim that you have a "reliable secondary source" in a policy position paper of an advocacy organization. Also, your remark simply dismissing the statements made by intelligent design advocates for having religious convictions is itself an NPOV violation. They do not define intelligent design that way. It seems that most ID advocates are theistic (which does not in and of itself imply that they are religious...religion and theism are two different things, although they can be related), but simply showing this doesn't prove dishonesty or some sort of illegitimate "bias", any more than pointing out that opponents of ID most often have a materialist worldview. 200.56.182.195 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 15:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair use of Image:Darwinsblackbox.jpg
There is a dispute over whether fair use applies to the image on this page. Please join the debate at Image talk:Darwinsblackbox.jpg#Use of this image in Irreducible complexity. Rossami (talk) 01:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Serious Violation of NPOV
I would like to say that, in general, this article constitutes a serious violation of NPOV. Two salient examples of this can be found at the beginning of the article. The first is "intelligent design creationism", a term that directly contradicts the definition given to "intelligent design" by its advocates. The citation cannot prove that the term is correct because it is a matter of definition...no peer-reviewed paper or other form of "authority" can determine the meaning of a word as it is used by another. If the advocates of intelligent design define the term in a certain way, that definition must be accepted.
A second salient example is the unbalanced presentation of the arguments for ID with regard to the bacterial flagellum, which also appears near the beginning of the piece. ID advocates have answered the criticisms placed here, but they are presented as if no answer has been given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MatthewHoffman (talk • contribs) 13:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, no doubt ID proponents object to the term being identified for what it is, but their view is in the extreme minority in the field they make their claim, the scientific community is the majority view there. And the scientific community says ID is creationism. As does the courts, educators, etc. Please take the time to read WP:UNDUE. FeloniousMonk 18:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- A) You are acting in what seems to be a very biased and partisan way. You claim the "scientific community" says that ID is creationism, but no source is provided excepta public policy paper, which has nothing to do with a "scientific consensus". B) A term's definition must be understood according to the originators of the term. The opponents of an idea can't change its meaning and then attack it based on their altered definition. ID, according to its advocates, does not assume the existence of God, even though it is certainly compatible with such a belief, and such a belief may be the motive for promoting ID. You need to answer these objections according to Misplaced Pages policy. MatthewHoffman 18:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)