Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:58, 15 September 2007

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Apple Inc., a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Apple, Mac, iOS and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Apple Inc.Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Apple Inc.Template:WikiProject Apple Inc.Apple Inc. Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

iMac Santa Rosa

I have boldly changed references to the latest iMac to iMac Santa Rosa. This better encompasses the technological changes, particularly the high end option for a Core 2 Extreme processor. An alternative name change that occurred to me after editing the Macintosh Timeline is iMac Core 2 Second Generation. Thoughts? Comments? Apple is referring to the new line as iMac Mid 2007. -GnuTurbo 20:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Changed it back. They do not have the Santa Rosa chipsets in them. Apple refers to them as Mid-2007, and they are. --Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 22:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, but they do have the Santa Rosa chipsets in them. And there are many other sources that confirm. Because of this, I am reverting your change. Please note additionally that the mid-2007 moniker was not previously applied to these models on this article. -GnuTurbo 19:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The iMac has a Crestline chipset, but it doesn't use the Santa Rosa platform. See wikipedia's own page on Sant Rosa. The iMac does not have Intel Wifi, as is required for Santa Rosa. http://en.wikipedia.org/Centrino#Santa_Rosa_platform_.282007.29 --Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 01:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Making reference to Misplaced Pages's page on Santa Rosa does not resolve the issue. I have provided ample verifiable sources in support of my claim. To convincingly contradict my claim you will need to provide verification from outside Misplaced Pages. You will also need to avoid original research. -GnuTurbo 11:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that my research is not valid, however, neither is yours. In all your links, it is only CALLED santa rosa, just as you are (incorrectly) calling it. Show some links about the insides of the iMac and the requirements for Santa Rosa and how it meets said requirements. Until then , I am reverting your change and am going to do research on my end.--Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 15:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Adam is right, it does not use the full Santa Rosa specs - it is often (erroneously) called that because it shares many things in common. 216.99.217.92 16:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20060307corp_b.htm Prove to me it has the Intel WiFi, and you can call it Santa Rosa. --Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 17:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not have to "prove" to you it has Intel WiFi. You are claiming the new iMac does not use the Santa Rosa platform. Multiple sources say otherwise. So my claim is verifiable. So far your claim is not. The only article you have cited outside Misplaced Pages is an Intel press release from a year and a half prior to the release of the new iMac. Your article says nothing about the iMac. It appears to me you need to find multiple reliable sources that say the iMac is not based on Santa Rosa or is based on something else before you can substantiate your claim. Even then, you may only have established controversy. Something that so far does not exist according to the cited sources. -GnuTurbo 00:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you realize that none of your sources say or prove that the iMac uses the Santa Rosa platform? They just call it the "imac Santa Rosa." I'm not going to argue with you any more, but none of your links prove that the iMac has Santa Rosa. To verify that it has Santa Rosa, you need to link to a source that says "The iMac runs on the Santa Rosa platform." I am changing the name back to mid-2007, because that is the name. Once I find a source, and I will be looking, as you should be too, because neither of us have any evidence at tis point, I will change the processor info, too.--Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 02:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have edited out all references to Santa Rosa, and until we get this straightened out, I don't think it needs to be put back in. I have sourced the fact that it uses Intel Core 2 Duo and have changed the title to reflect the actual name (iMac (Mid-2007)) I have also added a note about discussing any santa rosa edits on the talk page first. --Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 02:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not proof. Misplaced Pages is verifiability. You keep saying I need to prove something. I do not. All I need do is provide verifiability. I have. Many times over. If you are not going to argue with me anymore, I will take that as an admission that you will now follow the rules instead of making up your own. From the reference I added to the article (also one of the links above) before you reverted my edits:

The systems contain the same Intel Santa Rosa-based internals as the MacBook Pro, with Core 2 Duo processors at up to 2.4GHz.

Statement from another reference linked above:

So what kind of pricing and specs will we see inside the iMacs? They’ll have Santa Rosa chips running at up to 2.8Ghz, and up to 4GB of RAM and 1TB of storage.

Statement from another reference linked above:

Like the recently released MacBook Pro, the new iMacs use Intel's Santa Rosa/Centrino Duo platform. That means a higher front side bus speed, integrated support for 802.11n, and future drop-in support for Penryn when Intel's 45nm CPUs begin shipping later this year.

Statement from another reference linked above:

while it may sound odd to refer to a desktop Mac as getting a Santa Rosa update, that is exactly what is going on with Steve Job’s latest,

Statement from another reference linked above:

The new 24-inch iMacs sport two major advantages over the older 24-inch iMacs; they have faster processors, and they use the new Santa Rosa chipset (instead of the Napa chipset used in the older 24-inch iMacs).

Statement from another reference linked above:

Apple's new iMacs will likely sell well amongst potential 'switchers' as well as college students hoping to acquire new computers before heading back to the classroom, according to American Technology Research senior analyst Shaw Wu. Apple CEO Steve Jobs unveiled the sleek new systems yesterday during a special event at the company's campus in Cupertino, CA. "We find the new iMacs impressive with their thinner and sleeker aluminum and glass enclosure (similar to iPhone), new Intel Santa Rosa platform with faster Core 2 Duo processors, advanced ATI Radeon HD graphics, and lower price points," Wu wrote in a research note obtained by MacNN.

By some cosmic misalignment, it may turn out the information in these links is incorrect. But until you can provide some sources to show this, Santa Rosa is both the name and platform the latest iMac is based on. If you wish to reach a compromise, you are going to have to discuss it here with me first before reverting my edits based on your faulty reasoning and lack of sources. Btw, the change you are suggesting for the name is much broader than you realize. To be minimally consistent, you would need to rename iMac Core Duo to iMac (Early 2006), iMac Core 2 Duo to iMac (Late 2006), and since you want to follow Apple's support website's naming conventions, the iMac Santa Rosa is actually iMac (20-inch Mid 2007). You have taken the context of Apple providing support for a product and decided as an edit it is the best way for the public at large to refer to these models. I gotta say, I completely disagree with you here. And so have all of the other editors to the Intel iMac article until you arrived here. -GnuTurbo 01:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm having someone with a new iMac run a test on it to see about the WiFi. when he gets the results, I will source them, and we will decide then.--Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 19:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

You need to read this again: no original research. If somehow you and your friend overcome the verifiability problems of conducting your own research (for instance, your friend has access to a well-known publication that accepts his work), you still have to overcome the undue weight requirements and maintain a neutral point of view. There are a lot of problems with what you are proposing. It seems unlikely any decision will be made in your favor. -GnuTurbo 23:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to invest any more time in this. If I come across a "well known publication" I'll get back to you. I'm not going to fight with you, as you seem to have plenty of time to revert and revert. However, if the iMac in question ITSELF states IN its OWN firmware that it does NOT meet the requirements for Santa Rosa, as seen here: http://forums.macnn.com/58/imac-emac-and-mac-mini/346932/what-is-the-name-new-imac/#post3477399, then I don't think the "Original Research" GUIDELINE (i.e. not rule) should usurp that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamfc (talk • contribs) 20:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

That was amusing. I actually thought you were going to point me at this forum thread. What I would suggest is gather your best evidence (try to find a more recent Intel article) and email that to the various editors/authors of the articles I have cited and see if you can convince them to change their position on whether the new iMac is Santa Rosa or not. I am not sure if this kind of "tampering" is legit, but you could probably if you are successful at least establish controversy, even if you are a part of it. iMac Crestline, anyone? ;-) -GnuTurbo 23:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I am, however, going to change the NAME of the iMac on this page because it doesn't follow naming convwentions previously used here. The other iMacs here are named core duo and core 2 duo, respectively. Those are processors. Then this one is named Santa Rosa, which is a platform. So I am changing the name to Core 2 Duo (Aluminum) (the processor, followed by Aluminum to differentiate it.)--Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 02:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The new iMac, at least the 24-inch model, uses both Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Extreme processors. Also, as noted in the link you provided, aluminum is a bad way to differentiate the model since it is very likely the next models will also continue to be aluminum. It also does not tell us about the technology inside, whereas Core Duo, Core 2 Duo, and Santa Rosa do. Reverted. -GnuTurbo 17:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

GnuTurbo: Do you dispute that Santa Rosa requires Intel wifi or that the iMac has non-Intel wifi? Once you put the two of those together, you must come to the conclusion that the iMac does not deserve the Santa Rosa brand. Mduell2 20:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because a few people in journalism have been sloppy and referred to the current iMac as using Santa Rosa doesn't mean that the wikipedia should. You can't show that the iMac uses Santa Rosa because you can't show the iMac uses Intel's wifi, a necessary component to be branded as Santa Rosa. Call it Crestline, Aluminum, or Mid-2007, but don't call it something that it has been shown not to be. 24.128.81.148 20:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Please Stop Spreading Misinformation

There is no such thing as a "Santa Rosa chipset". Santa Rosa is a platform. This platform consists (among other things) of a Crestline chipset. If you want to call the iMac by its chipset, call it Crestline. In addition, Santa Rosa is a Centrino platform. Centrino requires Intel CPU, chipset, and WiFi card. Apple has never *ever* used an Intel wireless chipset hence not a single Mac can be called Centrino at all (that's also why you never see Apple using the Centrino moniker or label). Therefore this iMac also can certainly not be Santa Rosa.

Also, please don't tell me that many Mac sites call it Santa Rosa. That's entirely irrelevant because there's ample proof that it can't be:

• Intel Santa Rosa specs showing SR requires Intel WiFi chipset: http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20060307corp_b.htm
• New iMac doesn't have Intel WiFi: http://forums.macnn.com/58/imac-emac-and-mac-mini/346932/what-is-the-name-new-imac/#post3477399

The reason they are doing this is because for a long time all Intel released was the platform name Santa Rosa. The Crestline codename was only published later. By that time everybody had already started using Santa Rosa for the platform and th chipset. In the PC world this isn;t such a problem, because most notebooks not only use Crestline, but also the Intel Kedron WiFi chipset and are actually Centrinos (Santa Rosa). The iM<ac and MacBook Pro however, definitely don't use Intel's Kedron, but an Atheros chipset.

It is understandable how so many sites started publishing the wrong name and using the wrong chipset codename., Nevertheless, the facts are clear and there is zero doubt that

• SR isn't a chipset
• Macs don't use Intel WiFi chipsets.--84.73.140.109 20:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

"Santa Rosa" iMacs

Template:RFCsci

There is a discussion on whether the latest revision of the iMacs should be referred to as "Santa Rosa" iMacs. Evidence that they do not fit the description is being ignored with the "Original Research" policy as an argument.

It appears you have not correctly applied the request for comment tag or signed your comment. Your definition of "evidence" is not applicable to Misplaced Pages if you think I am ignoring it. So far as this online encyclopedia is concerned, you have not provided any evidence in support of your claim certain info should be included in the article. Forum threads are not evidence here. Old press releases that do not mention the article topic are not evidence here. You are inferring certain things and making those inferences is against the rules here. You must provide reliable published sources to support your claims. I have. You have not. My claim may be wrong because my reliable published sources may be wrong. But you have no claim so far as Misplaced Pages is concerned because your counterclaim is wholly unsupported. You do not have any reliable published sources making your claim. Find some or kindly withdraw. -GnuTurbo 00:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, GnuTurbo. If you invest your time in Misplaced Pages, you want to see it have the correct info, right? You have a lot of people on this page telling you that the iMac does not have Santa Rosa inside. I have provided you the link to Intel's Own website stating the requirements for Santa Rosa. So far, no one agrees with you that the requirements are met. Specifically, we have stated that the WiFi chip is not inside. Why don't you prove yourself right, and us wrong, but sourcing a website that specifically states that the iMac meets the requirements for Santa Rosa. Or send an email to Apple. And if you don't, I already have, and I will put it on my website and link to it as a source when I recieve a response. --Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 19:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you prove your sourcing a website that specifically states that the iMac Santa Rosa ?

To reiterate:

From the reference I added to the article  :

The systems contain the same Intel Santa Rosa-based internals as the MacBook Pro, with Core 2 Duo processors at up to 2.4GHz.

Statement from another reference linked above:

So what kind of pricing and specs will we see inside the iMacs? They’ll have Santa Rosa chips running at up to 2.8Ghz, and up to 4GB of RAM and 1TB of storage.

Statement from another reference linked above:

Like the recently released MacBook Pro, the new iMacs use Intel's Santa Rosa/Centrino Duo platform. That means a higher front side bus speed, integrated support for 802.11n, and future drop-in support for Penryn when Intel's 45nm CPUs begin shipping later this year.

Statement from another reference linked above:

while it may sound odd to refer to a desktop Mac as getting a Santa Rosa update, that is exactly what is going on with Steve Job’s latest,

Statement from another reference linked above:

The new 24-inch iMacs sport two major advantages over the older 24-inch iMacs; they have faster processors, and they use the new Santa Rosa chipset (instead of the Napa chipset used in the older 24-inch iMacs).

Statement from another reference linked above:

Apple's new iMacs will likely sell well amongst potential 'switchers' as well as college students hoping to acquire new computers before heading back to the classroom, according to American Technology Research senior analyst Shaw Wu. Apple CEO Steve Jobs unveiled the sleek new systems yesterday during a special event at the company's campus in Cupertino, CA. "We find the new iMacs impressive with their thinner and sleeker aluminum and glass enclosure (similar to iPhone), new Intel Santa Rosa platform with faster Core 2 Duo processors, advanced ATI Radeon HD graphics, and lower price points," Wu wrote in a research note obtained by MacNN.

Now it is up to you to provide sources that talk about the iMac and also support whatever claim you wish to support. -GnuTurbo 04:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It has been repeatedly pointed out by SEVERAL USERS HERE that those sources are simply wrong due to a misunderstanding of what Santa Rosa actually means (platform vs. chipset). Sources have been supplied to prove this. In fact every Mac owner can easily verify by himself/herself that their Mac isn't Santa Rosa/Centrino compliant. The fact that you *alone* stubbornly resist to understand that makes assuming 'good faith' increasingly difficult.--84.73.140.109 04:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No. Those all call the update Santa Rosa, because except for the WiFi card it is. Can you find a source showing all of the iMac's components SPECIFICALLY, and show that they all match up with Intel's Santa Rosa requirements? By the by, I'm still waiting for an answer from the Apple Press Contact. Oh, and also, Santa Rosa-based means that is is near to Santa Rosa. They have it right. The internals are Santa Rosa BASED. There's just ONE modification... The WiFi card. --Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 04:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

They call it Santa Rosa because that is what it is. I do not have to source each of the iMac's components. I only have to find sources that say the iMac is Santa Rosa. I have. It is your turn now. Find sources that mention the iMac and your claim. -GnuTurbo 04:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It really isn't much of an issue people, simply compromise of the wording. It's technically called crestline chipset, which is part of the Santa Rosa platform. Thus why not include that statement in the article and be done with it? Doing otherwise is disregarding the entire Mac community who refers to these models as Santa Rosa models, but on the flip side not mentioning Crestline would be incorrect. Therefore add both, which makes the article complete, technically correct and puts an end to this bitch fest. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nja247 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The way we have it now is factually correct and still mentions Santa Rosa. Can we agree to keep it this way?--Adam Fisher-Cox (criticize or compliment) 12:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Why drag Santa Rosa into the Mac pages at all? Just because they use Crestline does not mean they have anything to do with Santa Rosa. A SR computer requires Crestline, but just because a computer has Crestline, does not make it SR. I suggest for the new Macs we use Crestline which is *technically correct* and then link from Crestline to the Centrino page (since there is no Crestline page) where people can read that Crestline is a chipset and also happens to be the chipset that SR requires. That way people won't be confused by a platform Apple doesn't use and they won't get the impression Macs are actually part of the Santa Rosa platform (or Centrino).--84.73.140.109 15:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You need sources that say the iMac has a Crestline chipset. At present, it appears you are relying on the sources that say the iMac is Santa Rosa to draw your conclusion the chipset is Crestline. -GnuTurbo 15:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay listen. I am accepting that the Crestline chipset is used (even without sources), however as indicated in your Wiki link it's (Crestline) part of the Santa Rosa platform. So why not mention it. Saying that it is confusing is your point of view. Further you asked "why bring SR into it" --- because the Mac community as a whole refer to the new models as Santa Rosa. Go to discussions.apple.com, the official Apple forums and you will notice users referring to the new models, especially the MacBook Pro's as "Santa Rosa". This is just how it is and you need to accept it. Further, it's technically correct and more thourough to state Crestline, part of Santa Rosa.

There is no reason whatsoever for you to continue to disagree with what is a reasonable compromise. The statement that the Macbook Pro and iMac "use the Crestline chipset, which is part of the SR platform" not only resolves all issues, but it more thourough and encyclopedic. You need to review Misplaced Pages guidelines and accept this compromise as you nor no one owns this article WP:OWN. Misplaced Pages is built upon verifiability and consensous and I believe this has been reached, so think hard about it before continuing this quite pointless dispute. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It is technically NOT CORRECT to call any Mac Santa Rosa because they are simply not SR. SR requires Intel WiFi and ample source show no Mac actually does. Just because a lot of people have repeated a mistake made by a few, does not make it correct. WP should give correct information, not help spread misinformation.--84.73.140.109 16:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You say it's incorrect, but click your Wikilink for Crestline and tell me where it links to? Does it link to the Santa Rosa platform? Yes it does. Stating facts is not misinformation. I really don't understand the point you're trying to make? How is it incorrect to state the fact that "The Crestline chipset is PART OF THE SANTA ROSA PLATFORM?!?!?" You are starting to disrupt Misplaced Pages by removing factual information and continuing to revert could get you blocked from editing. There is no reason that you cannot compromise since my proposed compromise included your point of view as well as that of the other editors, myself included. Also, I ran "Santa Rosa MacBook Pro" into google and got numerous sources, however "Crestline MacBook Pro" returns only a few forum posts (which are not encyclopedic) and a couple real sources which clearly stated "Crestline, part of the Santa Rosa platform". The point I'm making is that your knowledge is not in the majority, and thus not including a mention of Santa Rosa would cause confusion. Further not mentioning that Crestline is part of Santa Rosa is not very thorough and is not the way an encyclopedia should be written.

A sample of real sources from a "Santa Rosa MacBook Pro" hit on google (over 15 pages):

http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2007/06/mbpupdate/index.php http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/macbook-pro-santa-rosa.ars http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/santa-rosa/new-apple-macbook-pros-with-led+backlit-display-265939.php http://news.worldofapple.com/archives/2007/05/09/macbook-pro-rumours-in-light-of-santa-rosa-launch/ http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3747 http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/05/09/intel_rolls_out_santa_rosa_notebook_platform_macs_to_benefit.html http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/reviews/index.cfm?reviewid=975 http://www.barefeats.com/santarosa.html http://crave.cnet.co.uk/laptops/0,39029450,49290900,00.htm http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/22/santa-rosa-based-macbook-pro-review-roundup/ http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/mobiletechreview_new_apple_macbook_pro_santa_rosa_buy_it/ http://stuff.tv/news/macbook-pro-makes-it-to-santa-rosa/default.aspx http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/06/1257243&from=rss http://www.looprumors.com/index.php?apple-releases-santa-rosa-macbook-pro-with-led-dis http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/06/_apple_macbook.html http://lowendmac.com/bookrev/07/0608.html

others, just got tired. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion

I believe enough articles and websites have been provided to show that the chipset is, in fact, Santa Rosa. I looked around a bit, and I cannot find any articles that use "Crestline"; rather, they all use "Santa Rosa." As per Misplaced Pages's policy on verifiability, it seems apparent to me that "Santa Rosa" should be included on the page. I would implore 84.73.140.109 to calm down a bit and to read and understand the articles on verifiability and on original research. Additionally, everyone here should understand the three revert rule; I see some users here have come close to violating the rule, and I'd remind you that exceeding three reverts in a day will get you banned for 24 hours. — HelloAnnyong 19:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Reality flash: There is no such thing as a Santa Rosa chipset. Santa Rosa is a code name for a feature list. One requirement in that list is the Crestline chipset. This is all sourced on intel.com. Only people w/o a clue about Intel don't know these simple facts. I don't really care about the threats. I can live with a ban and hop to the next public IP if it means making sure WP doesn't spread misinformation simply becxause a couple of illiterate kids are on a power trip. There are tons of sources that claim Auschwitz never was a concentration camp. And yet, we still know it was. I don't care what Macworld.com says. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "SANTA ROSA CHIPSET". If you can't accept that, you're - excuse my French - an idiot.

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