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Revision as of 23:37, 15 September 2007

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To-do: E · H · W · RUpdated 2006-05-09

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Suggestions for maintaining FA status

Well, the article is worthy of FA. Something bugs me though: an unwiedly list of books he wrote and see also farm. I recommend some clean-up. WikiNew 21:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for a tidyup, but wiping the whole list of his bibliography 3 days later seems a little heavy handed (see edit here). Perhaps something like a "selected bibliography" would be preferable to losing the whole section. This approach seems to work well on the Isaac Asimov article, a writer with over 500 books to his credit. Any thoughts? --Oscarthecat 15:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The Asimov article, which wouldn't pass at FA today, is discussing an author who wrote an enormous amount. Tolkien in contrast, was a University professor first and in terms of output was an incredibly talented amateur. In my view, sometimes going back to the drawing board is a good thing. WikiNew 15:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Think we agree that the original list was unwieldly, how about breaking it down to just this? --Oscarthecat 16:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the list, the article passed FAC with it, and I don't see why we should change it now... dab (𒁳) 18:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The posthumous works: rephrasing?

The article currently has 'Most of the posthumously published books were compiled from Tolkien's notes by his son Christopher Tolkien.' While this is perhaps not strictly inaccurate, it is highly misleading, and similar statements have given rise to the notion that CRT has done a Brian Herbert job on his father's legendarium. Perhaps a better statement would be, 'After his death, his son and literary executor Christopher Tolkien edited a coherent version of the Silmarillion from his father's many disparate texts. Christopher subsequently published the greater part of Tolkien's drafts and incomplete manuscripts in Unfinished Tales and the twelve-volume History of Middle-earth.' Solicitr 13:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Rather than expand toward the explanation given later in the article, I shorten the sentence in the lead to "The posthumous books were edited by his son Christopher Tolkien". Do you think the explanation given further down the article is adequate? Carcharoth 11:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not bad, although I think I still prefer the phrase 'coherent version.' Perhaps HoME shouldn't be described as 'background material', though, but as a scholarly presentation of the original texts. Solicitr 16:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten that bit. Does it read any better now? Carcharoth 02:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Lyndney Park

'He also assisted Sir Mortimer Wheeler in the unearthing of a Roman Asclepieion at Lydney Park, Gloucestershire, in 1928.'

This is simply incorrect. There's no evidence that Tolkien ever so much as visited the dig. The limit of his involvement was to write a philological note on the name Nodens (a Celtic deity), which was included in the excavation report as an appendix. The notion that Tolkien was somehow involved in the 'unearthing' has unfortunately been pushed recently by those taken with the idea that a Romano-British ring found at the site somehow inspired the One Ring, in defiance of all known facts. Solicitr 14:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Changed and tidied up. Thanks. Carcharoth 11:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Bibliography article

Someone started a fork at List of books by J. R. R. Tolkien. Apart from the fact that the bibliography is not all books (many are essays and poems), a title already exists waiting for such a spin-off article: Bibliography of J. R. R. Tolkien (currently a redirect to the section). The article is already out-of-sync with the section, so I propose putting the article up for deletion and keeping the bibliography as a section in the main article. It is not that long, and it is better for it to be comprehensive than a selected list with a slightly longer article including everything. In future, maybe an annotated list of his works might be an idea, but then so would a timeline. See what I did at User:Carcharoth/Tolkien timeline. If we are going to have a separate article for the bibliography, how about one for a timeline? Carcharoth 11:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Cover design for the three volumes of The Lord of the Rings by Tolkien" Picture

I've noticed that this seemingly innocent picture links to a picture of a somewhat chubby guy smoking a...cigar? I don't know how to revert it to its original picture, but I am praying that this isn't really the cover of the three volumes of The Lord of the Rings as published in Tolkien's lifetime...it doesn't do a lot to suggest what it is in the books themselves. I'm a little new here, so I'm uncertain of how to restore the original image. --Chirpish 06:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Translation

I noticed that there are many language versions for this article. i though that there could be a Quenya or Sindarin version to honour Tolkien's fictional languages. i don't know if it sound's stupid (and i hope not) or if there should be a separate section of the site (like en. wikipedia or gr.wikipedia...) but it is just a suggestion. - Jimmakos

Unfortunately, Quenya and especially Sindarin are not complete enough to translate his whole book into, or even this article. Also, the whole idea about language versions is that it links to another Misplaced Pages in the same language. For that to happen there would have to be a whole wiki in Quenya/Sindarin, which would certainly rely on someone or some people practically creating 2/3rds or more of the vocabulary. Sorry, but we appreciate your suggestions. --Narfil Palùrfalas 13:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

South African-hood

Since his parents were both British (not South African; they just happened to live there when he was born), he is British. Similarly, Basil Rathbone (born only some months after Tolkien) was born in South Africa to British parents, but is British. Is Category: South African emigrants justified for Tolkien? Rathbone doesn't have it. I guess both could retroactively be considered South African (by land of birth only), but isn't that like making Achilles a citizen of the Hellenic Republic? Uthanc 14:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

External links

The external links section is running a little rich on extraneous links - For an FA candidate, it should adhere to the guidelines of WP:EL, particularly the links normally to be avoided section. - Tiswas 16:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien was in H.O.G.D.

Lewis and Tolkien were initiated into the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and were active in it for at least 5 years.

Here's the excerpt from here: http://www.illuminati-news.com/tolkien-occult.htm

Interestingly enough, shortly after I had published the first version of this article on the Internet in 1998, I got a letter from a visitor, who was told by a high initiated witch, that both Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were initiated in the H.O.G.D. (The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn), which is a deeply occult, black magic secret society. The Golden Dawn is closely related to Madame Blavatsky's "Theosophical Society". During a discussion about Tolkien and his work, this male witch commented that "The Hobbit" and the rest of the Middle-Earth series was merely an elementary 'primer' for witchcraft. He was even a bit irritated at the lack of background knowledge about Tolkien among the people gathered. Later he added C.S. Lewis to the conversation as another well known literary figure who was initiated in the H.O.G.D. If this is true or not is hard to say, but it is interesting and well worth looking further into. However, there are more indications that both Tolkien and Lewis had Golden Dawn connections. The following website is no longer on the Internet, but I still have a saved copy of it, so I am hereby re-posting it: "Hermetic Imagination: The Effect Of The Golden Dawn On Fantasy Literature".

Wikinger 08:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What a load of horseshit. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
indeed. I would call it pure fantasy (no pun intended:) dab (𒁳) 09:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This seems to arise as a piece of wishful fantasy on someone's part. It is almost certainly the case that Charles Williams was connected with the Golden Dawn, but there no evidence that his friend C. S. Lewis had the slightest involvement with it, and it is inconceivable for Tolkien, who was a rather traditional Roman Catholic. Myopic Bookworm 11:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, all forms of black magic and occult are connected with evil in Tolkien's books. Aminullah 08:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The Golden Dawn did not practice black magic! TharkunColl 10:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Are you so sure that's true of everyone who was in it, while they were in it, and operating under its aegis? It was certainly an occult organization, in any event. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
White magic is evil too, because always magic = satanism. Wikinger 19:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Category madness

please help keep down the category cruft. I mean, "victims of animal attacks", where is this going? also "anarchists" and "illustrators" isn't appropriate: Tolkien called himself an "anarchist" in some private letter at some point, he is nothing like a publicly avowed anarchist writer. Similarly, he privately drew images, but he never published them. Just because every shred of his private life is being published doesn't mean that every private pursuit of his should be reflected in Misplaced Pages categorization. Please use some common sense. I also object to "Catholic traditionalist": he certainly was a Catholic, but his position is very far from "traditionalism". Indeed, his views border on the heretical in some areas. dab (𒁳) 06:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

alright, so Tolkien was a "Tolkien artist", how silly is that? He has not "illustrated Tolkien", he has drawn pictures, at the same time being Tolkien, that's really a bit of a different case. dab (𒁳) 12:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
"Tolkien artists" is shorthand for "artists who have illustrated writings by Tolkien," and Tolkien himself certainly falls into that category. It's not a trivial category, it's certainly important to know that Tolkien at times illustrated his own stories. (If it were trivial, then it would be true for most writers, which is not the case.) Both the writing and the drawing are acts of creation (or, as he would have it, "sub-creation"), valid in themselves, and both worthy of notice. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 17:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't suggest we remove all mention of his drawings. I am suggesting that we can make a statement in actual prose (as opposed to 'by categorization'). What you are saying is undisputed, but it leaves open the question of whether Tolkien is a "Tolkien artist". I maintain that it is silly to say this. dab (𒁳) 12:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
We do have him under Category:Writers who illustrated their own writing, so maybe we can remove Category:Tolkien artists, and add a note to the category page changing the criteria and reminding people that he illustrated his own works. Carcharoth 22:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why he is categorized under "South African Emigrants". He was an Englishman who happened to be born in the Orange Free State because his father had been sent out to head the Bloemfonetin office of the bank he worked for. Ojevindlang 13:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

He shouldn't be categorised this way. Unfortuntately, this is how Misplaced Pages works. The editors of an article have to perpetually watch out for, and remove, this sort of thing. Carcharoth 22:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed Category:Marquette University, as it should be the collection that is categorised there, not the author. I created J. R. R. Tolkien Collection as a redirect pointing at Marquette University. The redirect is now categorised in Category:Middle-earth redirects with possibilities, in case anyone wants to have a go at creating an article for it. See here for lots of information. Carcharoth 23:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparent desire to remove anything even remotely negative about Tolkien

I object at the way three additions to the article I had made were excised with the lofty claim that they "didn't improve the article". Since they were all referenced, I suppose that was the only argument the perpetrator could find. Mentioning that many think Tolkien and Robert E. Howard must share the honour as the progenitors of modern fantasy is perfectly valid. The same goes for pointing out that on one occasion Tolkien did break his word to Father Morgan about not meeting Edith, and that this made Father Morgan threaten to curtail Tolkien's university career. And the way Tolkien was charmed by Roy Campbell (attested to in a letter to his son) is embarrassing for Tolkien's reputation, but it is nonetheless an interesting example of how his intense religious feelings could kill his critical facilities. If anything, I have been too tactful here. This is a Misplaced Pages article, not a fansite, isn't it?

Ojevindlang 20:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree your contributions are valid, although I have doubts whether "sometimes led him off the beaten track" or "he was not even disturbed by the celebration of fascism" is an adequate phrasing. Regarding the "father of modern fantasy" thing, this shouldn't be discussed in too much detail here. I suggest the discussion should be moved to High Fantasy. dab (𒁳) 12:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
We have to mention people other than Howard, as neither he or Tolkien came up with high fantasy out of the blue, as some may think when seeing only Howard. 222.127.199.48 13:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
nobody claims JRRT single-handedly invented the fantasy genre. But he is the single author with the greatest influence by far. dab (𒁳) 13:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the reorganization of material has improved the article. I have recast what I regard as clumsy phrasing in the mention of Roy Campbell. Ojevindlang 13:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Views

I've been asked to provide evidence and quote sources for "what kind of Fascist" Roy Campbell was. I don't think the article about Tolkien is the proper place for that. But here is a representative quotation from Campbell's first autobiography, Broken Record:

"Although it was very difficult to acquire literary fame without kowtowing to the homosexual and yiddish freemasonries, I knew that I could eventually pierce through any screen they tried to set up between me and the public."

I can find out the page number and add other quotations, if necessary, but isn't that a waste of space in this article? When Campbell is called a Fascist, the word isn't used loosely. That's what he was. He stands convicted on his own writings and statements. Today the word "Fascist" is often used as a term of abuse, and often it only tells you that the person using it disapproves of the person he or she uses it about. But in the 1930's, the meaning was pretty unambiguous. A Fascist was a person who admired Mussolini, Hitler and Franco. Originally, before the rise of Hitler, a Fascist was not necessarily also a Jew-baiter, though it was often the case; after 1938, hating Jews became a sort of mandatory thing for Fascists. Campbell, incidentally, was an anti-Semitic long before 1938. Oh yes, and freemasons waere another bugbear for Fascists.

I hope this ends this particular discussion, which would be more relevant on websites about Campbell, Ezra Pound, Wyndham Lewis and their kind.

Ojevindlang 23:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

indeed. Campbell makes for an interesting note, but it's not like he was a great influence on JRRT or something. Fwiiw, the letter on Campbell has the following to say:

Especially as C.S.L. had not long ago violently lampooned him in the Oxford Magazine, and his press-cutters miss nothing. ... It was (perhaps) gratifying to find that this powerful poet and soldier desired in Oxford chiefly to see Lewis (and myself). We made an appointment for Thursday (that is last) night. If I could remember all that I heard in C.S.L.'s room last night it would fill several airletters. C.S.L. had taken a fair deal of port and was a little belligerent (insisted on reading out his lampoon again while R.C. laughed at him), but we were mostly obliged to listen to the guest. A window on a wild world, yet the man is in himself gentle, modest, and compassionate. Mostly it interested me to learn that this old-looking war-scarred Trotter, limping from recent wounds, is 9 years younger than I am, and we prob. met when he was a lad, as he lived in O at the time when we lived in Pusey Street.... What he has done since beggars description. Here is a scion of an Ulster prot family resident in S. Africa, most of whom fought in both wars, who became a Catholic after sheltering the Carmelite fathers in Barcelona -- in vain, they were caught & butchered, and R.C. nearly lost his life. But he got the Carmelite archives from the burning library and took them through the Red country. He speaks Spanish fluently (he has been a professional bullfighter). As you know he then fought through the war on Franco's side, and among other things was in the van of the company that chased the Reds out of Malaga in such haste that their general (Villalba I believe) could not carry off his loot -- and left on his table St. Teresa's hand with all its jewels. He had most interesting things to say about the situation at Gib, since the war (in Spain). But he is a patriotic man, and has fought for the B Army since. Well, well. Martin D'Arcy vouches for him, and told him to seek us out. But I wish I could remember half his picaresque stories, about poets and musicians etc. from Peter Warlock to Aldous Huxley. The one I most enjoyed was the tale of greasy Epstein (the sculptor) and how he fought him and put him in hospital for a week. However it is not possible to convey an impression of such a rare character, both a soldier and a poet, and a Christian convert. How unlike the Left - the 'corduroy panzers' who fled to America (Auden among them who with his friends got R.C.'s works banned by the Birmingham T. Council!). I hope to see this man again next week. We did not leave Magdalen until midnight, and I walked up to Beaumont Street with him. C.S.L.'s reactions were odd. Nothing is a greater tribute to Red propaganda than the fact that he (who knows they are in all other subjects liars and traducers) believes all that is said against Franco, and nothing that is said for him. Even Churchill's open speech in Parliament left him unshaken. But hatred of our church is after all the real only final foundation of the C of E - so deep laid that it remains even when all the superstructure seems removed (C.S.L. for instance reveres the Blessed Sacrament, and admires nuns!). Yet if a Lutheran is put in jail he is up in arms; but if Catholic priests are slaughtered - he disbelieves it (and I daresay really thinks they asked for it). But R.C. shook him a bit. ....

I am not sure we can characterise this in a general statement of "JRRT admired RC". It is also important to note that this is a statement made in private conversation. But I agree we should state JRRT was much taken in by RC. dab (𒁳) 10:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Ojevindlang, Do not misunderstand my caution with regard to the words "Fascist" and "Anti-Semite." I am a Traditionalist Catholic and a Paleoconservative. Therefore, I have known both terms to be thrown around quite frivilously in the direction of myself and my fellows. I am very uncomfortable with regard to how casually the words are used today and consider both to be too serious an accusation to be taken lightly. Therefore, I requested clarification on both pages that accuse Campbell of it. BTW, you might wish to add the quote, along with book and page number, to the Campbell article.

Mr. Dbachmann, The paragraph you cited from Tolkien's letters would make a rich addition to the Campbell article. I will leave it up to you to decide whether you wish to place it there.

Kingstowngalway 13:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

you are right, I'll try to do that. --dab (𒁳) 14:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

alright, I just noted I had missed the second half of the letter, and I admit that "admiration" is not too strong a term here. But it appears JRRT was somehow mesmerized by the immediate effect of the meeting, and the admiration doesn't seem to have lasted. At least I don't know that he referred to Campbell again on later occasions. --dab (𒁳) 14:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Kingstongalway, I can understand your concern, but trying to claim that Campbell was not a Fascist does not serve your faith or your political agenda well. The man repeatedly expressed anti-Semitic views and riled against homosexual "nancy boys" and freemasonic conspiracies. Even after the Second World War, he did not hesitate to contribute to Diana Mosley's magazine The European, which also counted Ezra Pound and Henry Wilkinson (an old member of Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists) as contributors. The Mosleys, like Pound, remained unrepentant Fascists. Campbell, according to his own statements, physically attacked Jews and Leftists. There is no way one can deny that the man was and remained a Fascist, in the original, unreconstructed sense of the word. You don't repeatedly say and do the things he said and did without a reason; and you don't keep the company he did (which also included Wyndham Lewis), unless you feel in sympathy with the people in question. If you for some reason find yourself unable to accept that, further discussion of this should be conducted somewhere else, not in the context of the article about Tolkien. BTW, I am looking for copies of Campbell's autobiographies so I can cite the exact page numbers for the horrible things he is universally admitted to have said. But the citations won't go into the article about Tolkien, of course.

Ojevindlang 15:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

indeed, please take it to Talk:Roy Campbell (poet). I think the Campbell episode is now duly addressed in this article. --dab (𒁳) 15:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien's Inspiration

Tolkien may have used historical names for his characters in The Lord of the Rings. For instance, Frodo from Frodi Fridleifsson, a Viking King. Others include Gandalf from Gandolf Alfgeirsson, a King in Norway; Meriadoc from Merodachus, a Sicambrian/Frankish King; Pippin from Pbepin “The Short,” King of France; the Sea of Rhun from Rhun "Hir (Tall)" Ap Maelgwn, a Welsch King; and Smeagol from Smiorgoill, an Irish King. Likewise, he may have borrowed from historical situations. For instance, the Stewards of Gondor in The Lord of the Rings ruled in the absence of the kings much the same way that the Mayors of the Palace ruled France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billandbeckypaul (talk • contribs) 06:43, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious about where Tolkien got inspiration for his stories. For instance, do the small, white flowers that grow on the graves of King Theoden’s ancestors have any correlation in Europe? Bill and Becky Paul 05:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

He documented most of the sources of his name choices himself - some in an LOTR appendix, and others in History of Middle-earth material, and in private letters.
  • Gandalf - Gandalfr is a name of a dwarf in the Old Norse poem Völuspá, part of the Elder Edda. See Norse_dwarves#List_of_Norse_dwarves
  • Meriadoc - pretending the events of LOTR were real, he said this was just representative of Merry's real name Kalimac. His real nickname Kali meant "happy" so he used a historical name with a concievable similar nickname (Meriadoc - Merry)
  • Pippin is a similar case - his real name in-universe was "Razanur", "Razar" for short. Razar meant "a small apple". Pippin is also a term for apple. See, for example, Cox's Orange Pippin. Razanur and Peregrin also are meant to have the same meaning of "traveler, stranger". See Westron (which English represents)
  • Sméagol - Old English smygel, "burrow". His real name was Trahald, meaning "burrowing".
  • Frodo - replaced "real" "Maura", meaning "wise, experienced". Frodo means about the same (Latinized Fróði; also Old English fród means "wise by experience").

Uthanc 07:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


Blue Plague

Is there one at the The Oratory Schoolas it quotes on the wikipedia page of this school that tolkien stayed there and wrote some of LOTR there Dingyv03 02:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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