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Ratify indefinite ban of Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Issue referred to Arbitration. MastCell 18:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

From AN/I. After an extensive block log and two very recent, lengthy blocks for edit warring and gaming the 3RR system, User:Giovanni33 has been blocked indefintely by User:Durova. His previous block on 15 August 2007 was reduced by User:El_C.

• Endorse indefinite ban. --DHeyward 05:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• I don't think dispute resolutions have worked in the case of Giovanni33 or would work now. Would be nice if he would change his ways, but after this many blocks and disruption, I doubt it. I have to support the indef block. --Aude (talk) 05:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse indefinite ban. Like I said at the ANI discussion, this is disappointing because Giovanni33 has a fantastic work ethic, but his block log and contributions show that he cannot refrain from edit warring and gaming the system to avoid 3RR. Pablo Talk | Contributions 05:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Unhelpful. There is an ongoing discussion at WP:ANI. Reopening it here (and with a leading request at that) is not helpful. Durova herself (!) is trying to work out a less radical solution. --Stephan Schulz 05:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The community may ban Giovanni33 regardless of Durova's wishes. Pablo Talk | Contributions 05:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Sure it may. That does not mean that it should rush to it, especially not as long as there is a productive ongoing discussion about this topic.--Stephan Schulz 05:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse this guy has caused more than enough trouble. -- Anonymous Dissident 06:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Do not endorse and am suspicious at attempts to reduce this to a vote. AGF and all but as is said above - this is unhelpful and anyone calling for the perm ban of an editor when the "straw that broke the camels back" was him reporting a known pov pusher for 3rr needs to examine their decision criteria. Sophia 06:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You must be confused. It doesn't matter what the "straw the broke the camel's back" is. What matters is Giovanni's lengthy block log and the disruptive nature of his contributions to the encyclopedia. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Never mind the quality feel the width - great judgment criteria. I suppose it's easier than bothering with the background details. The perm ban of an established editor is a serious matter that should not be decided just by the length of the block log - most of which is over a year old. Sophia 06:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, we should just ignore his block log. Good call. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a whole area of options between "ban" and "ignore". I am not advocating "ignore" but still fail to see why this particular incident has attracted so much attention. Check out WP:RfC and WP:RfAr and you will see there are many ways to skin a cat. Of course you can always shoot the poor thing and be done with it. Sophia 08:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's not jsut one incident. It's the fourth edit warring incident in 2 months involving 4 differnt article and 4 different editors. All involved gaming the system. 3 of which ended in blocks and one of which ended in his 2RR pledge in July. His last block of two weeks was reduced by El_C for all the reasons that are being stated for why he should not receive an indefinite ban. Indeed, El_C is threatening to unilaterally reduce his block again. IT's clear that G33 has not taken his admonishments or his pledges to heart. --DHeyward 14:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Sarcasm will not get you the community ban you seek, Pablo. In fact, it increasingly appears to be a form of intimidation. Please try to be a bit more collegial, if not friendly, to your follow editors. Thanks. El_C 10:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Object to sanctions here while ANI discussion is ongoing. Let the dust settle and see what happens with Durova's offer. R. Baley 06:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Object - Length of block log is as much dependent on how quick admins are to block someone as to their actual actions. There are many users with just as extensive a history of edit warring and POV pushing as Giovanni33... several of them actively campaigning for this ban. That their block logs are not, in some cases, as lengthy as Giovanni33's demonstrates to me why such a criteria is a poor choice. Much (though not all) of the impetus for this ban is an effort by one set of edit warriors to banish their opponent. That isn't something we should ever encourage, and if it succeeds it should be applied equally to long term edit warriors of all stripes with similar histories... whether they have the block log to show for it or not. --CBD 07:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse indefinite ban for Giovanni33, or alternatively a 3 month block followed by a 1-year probation period allowing for 1RR only. Breaking 1RR during probation shall result in an automatic indef-ban. If this alternate suggestion is taken, force the resumption of Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story 2‎, which may be escalated into WP:RfArb if the mediation fails again. Those requesting for "parity" here should rather join the aforementioned mediation/arbitration on Mao/Jung Chang to pursue their content disputes. No sanctions are necessary for other editors at this point.--Endroit 14:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• I was inclined to support a short-term ban from the whole project, to be followed by a permanent topic ban on all Asia-related articles. But after seeing the evidence of stalking, I have to reluctantly endorse an indefinite ban. Blueboy96 14:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Stalking?????? No one is actually taking that one seriously as it's absurd and an accusation put out by the editor who Gio was in conflict with. Sophia 14:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That was me, providing the diff's at ANI. I don't believe I ever was in a conflict with Giovanni33. Do you have any proof of it, Sophia?--Endroit 14:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. It takes two to edit-war; it seems unfair to indef-ban one side in a war (particularly when it's the opposing side in this case that actually violated 3RR). This seems to be another case of a double standard being imposed by the ruling clique. *Dan T.* 14:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Object. Duplicating an ongoing discussion at ANI here is a bad idea, and this discussion was only started after it become obvious that there was not consensus for an indefinite ban at ANI. On his talk page, after being prompted by Durova, Giovanni (following others before him) has proposed alternate remedies of 1RR probation or a topic ban on Mao related articles (with both remedies to be in effect for himself and the editor he edit warred with). Let's pursue those options for now and keep the discussion in the place which it began. I'd rather not even comment here and lend credence to this thread, but I don't want a few editors who have been in content disputes with Giovanni in the past to do an end-around on the dialogue that is already happening.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. The behavior of other users should also be looked into, but that doesn't excuse Giovanni33. A fairly lengthy ban (at least 6 months) would be my second choice, though still acceptable. Chaz 17:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Other solutions should be tried before an end-all-be-all indefinite block. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Agree with many here, a contributing editor should not be blocked, especially after showing such an ability to improve in bahavior. If an admin finds themself loosing patience, perhaps they should step back, patience is required to deal with situations. Their proposal, Giovanni33 that is, seems to be the best implementation to avoiding further edit warring over the issue. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33's offer

Reposted from user talk:

:Thanks for your offer and being amicable. For the good of the project, I propose a 1RR limit for myself and John Smiths as fair. I self imposed a 2 RR for myself, and only went to 3 when I saw what he was pushing. I'll happily go to 1 revert as a limit for a proposed lenght of time as is agreed per consensus (1 year, 6 months?), with the condition that the same applies to the other editor in these edit wars with me, who has been reverting in excess of what I have been doing over several articles (more than myself). Since this ANI is considering both of us (or should be, per the 3RR report), its apropos that both are dealt with in a similar manner with a solution that benefits the project. It would also dispel appearances of being one-side, unfair, etc.Giovanni33 03:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose a 2nd solution that I think would be better for WP: a topic ban on Mao related articles--but again for both parties. The edit wars all center around the Jung Chang book and Mao's China, and I'd be happy to accept a topic ban on these articles provided John Smiths included, as well. This would be my first choice, and I think a better solution as it would end the edit wars period, instead of slowing them down (I can see John Smith doing 1 revert a day, and this would not a real solution).Giovanni33 03:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Both of these suggestions include reciprocal sanctions on another editor. I would really need to see evidence in support of such a thing before backing that idea, but I have an alternative proposal: this type of remedy fits within the scope of community enforceable mediation where two editors can come together and agree to binding remedies upon themselves. If John Smith is agreeable, I propose a limited unblock of Giovanni33 for the exclusive purpose of community enforceable mediation, which would last until CEM concludes or for one month: if no agreement is forthcoming by that deadline I'd refer to arbitration (shifting the limited unblock to arbitration). This comes with no automatic limitation on John Smith's editing privileges, although I or any other administrator may take action as appropriate. Durova 17:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed it would be best for all concerned if the two can reach a settlement between themselves. If this fails, actions with respect to Giovanni33 and John Smith should each be considered on their individual merits. Raymond Arritt 17:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Option One proposed by Gio seems more favourable to me. As someone who have seen the work of both editors, I know that they have valuable contributions. Only they need to be more willing to give-and-take when they disagree. But I have a question for this Option One - would it be a 1RR/article/week? And is it limited to those articles they have edit warred over? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The idea of community enforceable mediation floated by Durova sounds excellent to me, and is probably largely in line with the spirit of Giovanni's suggestions which seem to revolve around both parties agreeing to some wrongdoing, agreeing to dial down the level of conflict, and submitting to restrictions on their editing activities. Has User:John Smith's been contacted about this proposal? I think he is blocked now but it seems like it would be useful to bring him into the discussion via his talk page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's and I have traded e-mails and had an online chat. He's preparing a proposal. I'll post here when it's ready. Durova 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This was his pledge 6 weeks ago on a 3RR/edit warring transgression that went unblocked. A few weeks later, he was blocked again for edit warring with a different editor on a different article. That block was reduced by El_C. This weeks edit war was with yet a different editor, a different blocking admin and a different article. If the 2RR pledge didn't mean anything and his blocks keep getting reduced, why is their a belief that anything other that a long period of quiet reflection will produce a change in behaviour? --DHeyward 22:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment — This appears to be an effort by Giovanni33 to shirk responsibility by blaming it all on one user. However, Mongo and others were involved the last time, not John Smith's. I believe the admins from the other recent incidents need to be consulted to determine the appropriate action here. At least a 3-month block on Giovanni33 is in order, for his general disruptions, in addition to the WP:CEM suggested above by Durova.--Endroit 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's offer

This is longer so I'll link to it. Reactions and comments are welcome, and Giovanni33 may respond by talk page posts, e-mail, or chat. Durova 21:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's basically a rant, devoid of any introspection (in it, John Smith doesn't acknowledge his pov pushing of Changism for years). The proposal, if I could parse it, involves himself having some sort of revert advantage, that he promises not to use to his advantage. As a sign of good faith, he asks that his version in the dispute be retained. Feel free to stop me at any time. El_C 22:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please do stop. I'm seeking an effective community solution here to avoid arbitration, which is where things will go if we can't achieve consensus. If there's something constructive to build upon please focus on that, or if there's nothing of value then please say so without placing additional strain on the discussion. Durova 23:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

If you're unwilling, or unable, to reach parity, which thus far seems to be the case, perhaps arbitration would be the best recourse. El_C 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I certainly am willing and able to reach parity if I see a good case that parity is appropriate. You're welcome to make such a case. Please offer evidence in a dry just-the-facts-ma'am presentation. Durova 23:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I just am not sure you are capable of being evenhanded, seeing that your first action will need to be justified in the result. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

If you need any evidence of my impartiality, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Agapetos angel where I was the sole defender of an editor whose ideology I abhorred. I simply don't accept the paradigm that it takes two to tango: I've seen enough editors where there was a primary antagonist, and it's a very commonplace tactic for a primary antagonist to invoke it takes two to tango in a bid for retributive action when sanctions appeared to be imminent. So I examine each instance separately and so far I'm not impressed by the direction that this conversation has taken: rather than a presentation of evidence for analysis and judgement this approaches challenges to my capacity for analysis and judgement. WP:AGF should weigh here. Please, if you have evidence to present for community discussion then do present it. Durova 01:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of your impressions, I object to you deciding the content end of an edit war that's been going on for years via clumsy action that obviously lacks consensus and is only supported by seemingly well-defined circles. El_C 03:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Reposting: I think Giovanni sees the world too politically and categorises people as being "with him", "against him" or "not involved". He also has trouble accepting that others may have a valid point and trying to find compromise that maybe he doesn't agree with but is a "halfway house" that can move things on. So whilst he was blocked, I would suggest we get a mediator (maybe 2-3) to chat things over with him every so often to see how he was feeling. I think he could do with a sort of "behavioural mentor", someone (or some people) to try to get him to be more flexible and less prone to just want to get what he initially thinks is right. If for some reason they thought he hadn't changed they could recommend he stay blocked, but generally they would be there to help him out.

After the X weeks/months were up, Giovanni would be allowed back. He would be put on 1-revert parole (either per article per week or week) for 6 months/1 year. If he started breaking the terms he would be indef blocked. Also if he was referred again by wikipedians for repeated disruptive behaviour even after the parole was up he might be indef blocked, though that would depend on how people felt at the time.

As for myself, I would re-assure Giovanni I wouldn't game his parole by agreeing not to get involved in articles he has edited and/or still edits which I have not edited. He would draw up a list of articles he is interested in that he thinks apply and we could agree them with someone like Durova. If I started reverting his changes on those articles we had agreed on, I would get a 72-hour ban.

In regards to the points we had been mediating, I would agree not to use my revert "advantage" to change them. In return he would agree to med-arb with three administrators who have not been involved in blocking/unblocking us, editing in our favours/against us, etc. I would suggest Durova (again as a very non-partisan admin) be chair admin, and if we couldn't agree on the other two she would find them herself. As a sign of good faith I would ask that Giovanni not try to change the recent edits I proposed to the lead of the Mao: The Unknown Story article - if he was not happy with them after he returned from his block he could ask they be included in the med-arb.

Some wikipedians sympathetic to Giovanni may think this proposal unfair, but I would point out that if we can't agree to a resolution the matter will go to arbitration, which will be long-winded and probably eventually ban Giovanni or otherwise censor him more severely. There is no reason why we can't get to the position where Giovanni never edit-wars again, but I think a bit of "tough love" is is required here to do that. John Smith's 20:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

First you link to it, now you're "reposting it"? Is this some sort of rhetorical device? It looks like it serves to drown the discussion. El_C 23:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

To be candid, your comment looked like an attempt at poisoning the well. I'm not attempting any sort of rhetoric: I have no dog in this race. I'd just rather achieve a workable consensus if it's possible to do that without referring the matter to WP:RFAR. Durova 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am still talking about parity. I find tou are not being responsive about this limited point. El_C 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

My view of parity is that we consider each case equally dispassionately on its own merits. Giovanni33's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. John Smith's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. The "if you block one of mine, then we have to block one of theirs" approach uncomfortably resembles tit-for-tat rather than true parity. Raymond Arritt 00:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Block-log and political-derived prejudice appears headed to skew any notions of fair review, leading to such distortion. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

My worry is that many seem to not be reading the block log correctly, citing each line as a seperate block, and ignoring the time many of those took place and the long stretch between them. They should also take note of who the last blocking admin was back in 2006, and who seems to be advocating the block now. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni's remedies seem to be first more fair, limiting one user and not the other, is just telling one its ok to war and the other its not. What prevents the one not limited from continuing to drown the other out? I am more in favor of the first then the second, however if the belief is the topic and their views, then 2 should be studied. I agree with others, John seems to just be ranting, not actually making a solid proposal. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a worry that John Smith is getting off lightly while Giovanni33 bears the brunt of the punishment. Since this is a CSN notice about Giovanni33, this would be appropriate. JS has a much less impressive block log. I have not seen him reported on ANI or CSN previously as Giovanni33 has. He has not violated other rules such as gaming the system and sockpuppet policies as Giovanni33. In fact, he received one the harshest 3RR penalties from El_C given his block log and he chose to block JS but not Giovanni for edit warring on April 4 (yes they were both involved, it was the same article). It's clear that El_C has a conflict with JS and feels some affinity for Giovanni33 as he has inly blocked JS and only unblocked Giovanni33. Bringing JS into Giovanni33's CSN is more of a red herring. This is about Giovanni33's inability to act civillly within the bounds of consensus and the community adopted policies such as 3RR, Sockpuppetry and Gaming the System and his inability to live up to his previous commitments and promises. --DHeyward 02:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You really should try not to accuse admins of anything unless you are going to stand by them and report it properly. Slinging mud is not appropriate. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I accused anybody of anything here except Giovanni33 who should be blocked indefinitely. I know of no policy that El_C has broken so there is nothing to report. It certainly would be wildly inappropriate for him to use his admin tools to change the blocks of either Giovanni33 or John Smith as he has a history with both of them. --DHeyward 03:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration request opened

This thread can close now. It appears unlikely to generate consensus so I've taken it to arbitration and given limited unblocks for both John Smith's and Giovanni33 for the purpose of participation there. Other editors may wish to revise and expand the lists of involved parties and dispute resolution attempts. Durova 03:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Proposing Community Ban on User:Gold heart

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The community consensus here is clearly to have Gold heart banned. It is highly unlikely that any administrator would be willing to unblock him, as the behavior demonstrated by the user is beyond unacceptable. As such, Gold heart can be considered banned. Acalamari 21:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing a community ban for User:Gold heart, per suggestion of Fred Bauder in "The Troubles" ArbCom case. He was a somewhat good user, who suddenly decided to retire from Misplaced Pages and scrambled his password, but when The Troubles Arbcom case started. he activated an up till then dormant account, User:Thepiper and attempted to contribute to that case (without letting folks know that he was Gold heart). He also created another account, User:Gold Heart (Temp), which violates WP:SOCK and ArbCom Rules. This started a downward spiral which continues to the present time.

Recently, this user has created several sockpuppets to harass User:Alison, both on and off-Misplaced Pages. This harassment included outing of personal, medical data about Alison on Misplaced Pages, and the use of anonymous remailers to harass her off-Misplaced Pages. You can see his on-Misplaced Pages harassment from the contributions of sockpuppets Pronterra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Perolla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Alison has taken the incredibly brave step of stepping forward to show her harrasser for what he is at User_talk:Alison#Public_statement. Now it's time for the rest of us to step forward. I call for a community ban on User:Gold heart and all accounts that they may possess. SirFozzie 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: In order to consider a community ban, we will need diffs to the different allegations that you are making against User:Gold heart. Without seeing links to the actual evidence to these charges (and not a general link, but specific diffs), I personally will not support any ban.--Alabamaboy 23:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Pronterra Perella , , and trying to explain why he's doing this, using another sock account today, SirFozzie 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse witch burning. His trolling using multiple sockpuppets during the ArbCom was a very unwelcome distraction to begin with, and now his sinister behaviour and harassment are becoming totally unacceptable. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to see evidence that these accounts are the same editor. If so, then I'd support. Has there been a checkuser? Durova 23:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The user has confirmed that they were User:Gold heart . When I brought this up with ArbCom member Fred Bauder privately off-wiki (due to the sensitive nature of the issue, he confirmed that they were the same account but it would be hard to block the range, because the IP changes). Fred Bauder then directed me over here in the ArbCom case , and suggested an indefinite community ban would be in order here. SirFozzie 23:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

All right then, I endorse it. Sockpuppetry to confound an arbitration case is a very serious matter, and the accusations against another editor are nontrivial. Durova 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse I see no reason not to. Abusing multiple accounts, trolling in an ArbCom case, the positive checkuser request, and the on and off-wiki harassment to an editor in good standing provide no alternative. Arky 02:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse community ban absolutely. I found that comment posted to RfARB (link 42 posted above by Fozzie) declaring his love genuinely disturbing. The sooner this gets chopped off at the knees, the better. There is no reason whatsoever for us to allow a user to use Misplaced Pages to harass and stalk one of our editors. I have reblocked Gold Heart (Temp), Gold heart, Perolla with email disabled (partly to disable email and partly to put the blocks in a third party's name rather than his victim's name). This will have no affect on his ability to email Alison, but at least will prevent him from abusing the email function to harass anyone else. Sarah 04:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. What this user has done is unforgivable. Sam Blacketer 13:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strongest possible support The conduct demonstrated is unacceptable in any civilized online community. Would advise contacting his ISP as well, in light of the serious off-wiki abuse. Blueboy96 14:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Alison is probably the only person who the ISP would listen to as a complainant in this case, but if they need any help, I'd support any efforts made by wikipedia to supply them with relevant information. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. Wholly unacceptable behaviour. Worth checking other wikis too. - Kittybrewster (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse community ban, per Sarah. Second chances are for people who do a bit of edit warring or POV pushing, or get a bit disruptive. They are NOT for people who start real life harassment of our contributors. ElinorD (talk) 14:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. I'm not familiar with the background to this dispute, but the comments by the user (and his sockpuppets) about Alison's medical history certainly do seem unacceptable. Lots of Wikipedians have medical, personal or emotional issues of various kinds in their lives; publicising details like that about someone else in an attempt to discredit them is not acceptable. As such, I endorse the proposed ban, based solely on the comments made towards Alison; I'm not factoring in the behaviour on the arbitration case, since I don't know the issues involved. Walton 14:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong endorse ban. Blatant sockpuppetry, and now harassment of an editor including breach of privacy: there's no wiggle room here. Away with him, and I sincerely hope that he takes time to seek whatever help he needs. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Unquestionably endorse ban. This user's behavior has been absolutely despicable. --krimpet⟲ 17:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban now that links to the evidence were provided. This behavior should not be tolerated.--Alabamaboy 17:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban - completely unacceptable behavior. Cheers, Lights (♣ • ♦) 18:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban - For all the reasons stated above. Serious abuse on numerous fronts. - Crockspot 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• I move to close--is there any objection? I see it snowing outside ... granted, it's been open a day, but I can't see why anyone would ever unblock this guy. Blueboy96 19:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban, and second motion to close, per WP:SNOW and the unacceptable behaviour of the subject. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban and motion to close. I was the target of Gold Heart's socks at WP:RfAr. Those were ridiculous enough to be little more than a distraction. However, after his account was publically revealed to be a sock, he emailed with with an apology and explained that his actions at ArbCom were more to do with his issues with Alison than myself. That he will go so far to create socks to attack me just because I happened to support Alison's actions is both scary and indicative of the lengths this editor will go. Lets put an end to this now. Rockpocket 19:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Let it Snow!

• Pile-on support I know this is closed, but I just wanted to register my support of Alison. She's a great admin and crap like this won't be allowed. Of course it's snowing. . .as well it should be. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. R. Baley 07:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topics

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to topic ban, ban or block Space Cadet at this time. KillerChihuahua 15:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Space Cadet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been disruptive for about five years now in this field. Notified, he seemed willing to change ( ). Some days on, however, a single-purpose account appeared in a WP:POINT campaign, to whom Space Cadet could not help but express his approval and vowed to help himself after his break (). Now he has notified me that his break was over and violated the Gdansk-vote twice again ( ). I suggest he has long exhausted the community's patience regarding German-Polish-related areas. Sciurinæ 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a more accurate description of the problem is: for five years, Space Cadet has held a completely different POV from Sciurinæ. The last time I checked, we don't ban people for that. I don't see any revert warring or incivility in Cadet's recent edits you linked above, so there is no serious disruption to consider.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You are clearly presenting a straw man argument, because you claim that the reason for banning him would be my different POV when in fact I want him banned from Polish-German related topics given his obvious, recurring and never-ending violations of the Gdansk/Vote. You also seem to present an ad hominem argument, because you play down my presentation by pointing out my different POV. I did not even cite revert warring in the two edits (though actually it is on a slow level), nor did I cite incivility, though incivility, too, is an issue (eg against interfering admins for blocking User:Molobo or this more recently one in which an admin just tried to mediate in some Gdansk-related struggle ). It's about a topical ban and not a block for incivility. Sciurinæ 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. I see no evidence of recent disruption in the cited links. In the first of the two "incivility" diffs provided (), it looked like the phrase "what an idiot" was referring self-deprecatingly to himself, not to another user. In the second instance () I agree that he was being uncivil towards Anthony.bradbury (a respected admin), but the incivility wasn't severe enough to merit a block or ban, IMO. Although I understand that this WP:LAME content dispute has been going on a very long time, I don't see any reason to ban this user. I may change my mind if any evidence of actual recent disruption is provided. Walton 18:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Space cadet has never been blocked. This is not a place to continue disputes. Take it elsewhere. Banno 21:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually Space Cadet has been blocked six times. The most recent was in April 2006. I'd like to see a compelling argument that this is not an extension of a POV dispute. Durova 00:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe banning Spacer is out of question. I must say that it has been a while since I've seen a useful edit from him (if ever). Most of edits that I have seen was adding a Polish name to an article and nothing else often without a good reason. He occasionally revert warred too but never even close to the amount of grief brought to this project by Piotrus' most important protegé Molobo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) after the latter's last return from a one year block alone. Also, Spacer is good natured, friendly and sometimes admits to past mistakes and even apologizes for them. I would like to see doing some useful activity but not doing anything useful on the project is by itself not a reason for a ban. --Irpen 01:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It took me a second reading to understand the irony. :-) Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

For Durova: The Gdansk vote was the climax of a long-runing POV dispute, to finish it after all was said time and time again. It was intended as a community decision and most voted for its enforcement (including Piotrus), meaning its persistent violation was to be considered an act of vandalism. There was enforcement long ago, most decisively in the cases of Halibut (WP:POINT campaign) and of Molobo ( ). Even so, that was discouraging due to wheel warring by Piotrus ( respectively), so that now after the last attempt of enforcement (wheel warring over Molobo), as far as I'm aware, enforcement through blocking other than 3RR has completely died out. Although Piotrus had certainly been inexperienced as an admin then and you can't bear him any grudge for that now, it is unbelievable that he has managed to make this here look like a content or POV dispute (and "we don't ban people for that" -- Piotrus) rather than someone actively resisting a community's decision. This creeping and never-ending campaign of Space Cadet's five-year-long disruption finally has to be tackled and if that's not the way, then what is? Revert warring against "vandalism"? Or another pointless arbitration case featuring Piotrus? Of all choices, this one seemed to me to be the most rational. Please reconsider it. Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

To Irpen: if you can't recall seeing a useful edit from this person and perhaps never have seen one, then why oppose banning? Each editor's contributions (or lack thereof) stand on their own merits. Congenial people who aren't building an encyclopedia can easily find a niche at MySpace or some other site. Durova 05:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Durova, I am simply a humanist. I don't like harsh measures without a very strong reason. Besides, banning editors for not being useful while tolerating editors who clearly bring more harm than good to the project just does not make much sense. Nationalist extremist POV-pushers roam freely wasting our potentially productive time on dealing with their edits or endless "discussions" about nonsense at the talk pages and in order to get banned they have to make a mistake of also attacking users in especially horrific ways. Or violate 3RR repeatedly (10 times or so and 3RR reports are not even handled these days). Others spend entire days chatting on IRC, hardly make content edits at all (some none at all) but join every possible policy debate with comments that are completely detached from real Misplaced Pages needs (because someone who does not edit cannot understand the encyclopedia's concerns.) We do not ban those, do we? Sad but true. And here is just a guy who occasionally needs to be reverted. Big deal! If we are serious about improving the project through community sanctions, it is only sensible to start with much more grievously users. --Irpen 07:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Then by all means raise those serious cases in separate proposals. At AFD there's a term for that argument, and although I don't mean it disparagingly toward the individual as opposed to the behavior, that class of argument is known as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I wish I had a more polite term for it in this context, but it carries no more weight here than it does there. Durova 07:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Durova, I am not only a great humanist but also a sober realist :) Do you really believe any of the editors like I named above are bannable through this board? I mean some names popped at the top of your head when I gave some typical descriptions, right? Yes, you guessed right. And that one too.

Now, do you believe those users we thought of are bannable through this board? Realistically? And the reasons why it is impossible have nothing to do with their not being harmful enough. So, why waste time? I mean, if you insist that my pessimism is unwarranted I can try and initiated a couple of threads but both of us know that this is futile. So, why start from Spacer? This is simply unfair. When he adds Kijow or Krolewiec once in a while, I would revert him and not see him for another 3 months. But some of his talk page remarks are truly funny and none of them are offensive. --Irpen 08:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The activity of the Piotrus-Space Cadet edit-warring tandem was discussed as part of a recent ArbCom case. One of the key disruptors during the infamous Gdanzig dispute several years ago, Space Cadet has evolved into a "little helper" of Piotrus in his never-ending POV disputes with Lithuanians and Germans, whose occasional revert may prove inesteemable for Molobo and whose fraudulent edit summaries are still mildly amusing. His activity is not nearly as disruptive as that of his comrades-in-arms, so I think that a suspension of his editing rights may be premature at this juncture. --Ghirla 10:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The ArbCom found no wrongdoings on my part, but Ghirlandajo still goes around various boards and discussion pages repeating accusations discarded by ArbCom. I'd appreciate if the community would put an end to smearing my name by Ghirlandajo.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As someone who doesn't share the opinion that neutrality can miraculously emerge from opposing sides pushing their respective POV, I strongly support the motion to take "official" steps against Space Cadet's Poland-related activities. Look at it this way: Diverting Space Cadet's attention to other topics for some time might actually help him demonstrate to the community that he is not a nationalist one-trick troll, but intends and is able to make useful objective contributions to Misplaced Pages. Personally, I don't suppose he would succeed, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone. --Thorsten1 15:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

What is being asked is that we set up an agreement according to which, if Space Cadet edits certain pages, he will be blocked. So here are the important questions:

• Are there any administrators willing to implement such a block?
• If such a block were implemented, are there administrators who would disagree, and unblock?

If no admin is willing to implement the block - I certainly would not on the basis of the info presented here - then we can close this discussion. Banno 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support ban of Space Cadet as his long time record speaks for itself - and against him. Recently, Olessi made some suggestions regarding categorization of Germans/German-speakers at German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I've responded that the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users, giving seven recent diffs of Space Cadet removing the Category:German natives of East Prussia (No East Prussia before 1772) from persons like Frederick I of Prussia who were born in Königsberg (important Królewiec according to Space Cadet). Apart from biographies, he also "restores POV" to the articles on places like Frauenburg, which is called Frombork only since 1945, but not during the Copernican era . Denying centuries of German history by pushing Polish POV over it is Space Cadet's only agenda. As long as he is around, development of the German-Polish-related topics on Misplaced Pages will stagnate as his behaviour is driving away good faith editors. After five years, it should be him who is made to go elsewhere, e.g. to the Wiki articles covering central oder modern Poland. -- Matthead      O       00:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You can support it all you like. Unless an admin is willing to impliment it, it's dead in the water. Banno 00:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess "Community sanction noticeboard" means that if the Community agrees on a sanction, and it is violated, and evidence is presented, then one of the admins will enforce it. "Load sharing" seems to work in other admins business, too. Do you really expect that first an admin has to be identified before the pros and cons of a sanction may be discussed? BTW: no violation of the community sanction, no admin needed. It can be that simple. -- Matthead      O       01:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should have a look at the policy. The "community topic ban" idea is fraught. It is not obvious that you have a consensus here, I doubt that any admin would block on the evidence presented. Hence my question - is there an admin willing to block on this evidence? (I hope not, since the evidence presented is years old). If so, then this can proceed. If not, then let's close this discussion. Banno 02:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If the community agrees on a remedy then I am willing to enforce it. So far I'm neutral on the merits of the proposal. Furthermore, any editor can report evidence of a topic ban violation to WP:ANI and get action. The question isn't dearth of administrators willing to act; the question is whether consensus exists for action. I am categorically disregarding attempts to establish linkage between this discussion and other editors. We all know the Eastern European topics are a mess, but no heap ever got sorted by wailing about what a mess it is. One chooses a particular part of the problem and solves it, then moves on to the next part. Durova 02:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. There are many POVed editors in Poland-German area. But after the great Danzig/Gdansk vote, the area is relatively peaceful. As I explained above, to ban one semi-active editor from one side of the dispute would be petty and hardly constructive. I am not surprised to find that POV-pushers from one side would like to see the others banned - but this is not how this project works; we are supposed to reach consensus by discussions and meet mid-way, not try to ban the other side. Lastly: it would be nice if somebody could actually show that Cadet has violated the Gdansk Vote - citing the relevant part of the vote and relevant diff.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, now you are getting ridiculous. Is the "Poland-German area" and the Gdansk vote again extended to the West bank of the Rhine? Next stop, French-Polish border? -- Matthead      O       04:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ekhm, Matthead, why do you give us diffs from non-Space Cadet editor and from 2005, too? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

ROFL, although this underscores my longstanding opinion that community sanction consensus should be established by uninvolved editors rather than by partisans to a dispute. BTW what's Polish for Koblenz? Durova 05:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point: so far all critics of Space Cadet are the users who have disagreed with him in the content dispute. Considering Cadet's inactivity in past months, that doesn't seem fair.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I came across with Space Cadet contributions back in 2006 in regards of his possible sock puppetry case involving User:Tirid Tirid . That draw my additional attention was his provocative edit summaries as further events shows such practice is carried on till recent . I made impression that attempts to discuss issues with this contributor is hard as he tries to derail them with flaming or irrelevancies . However at that time I did not regard his contributions as extremely disruptive, but Sciurinæ presentation of overall picture of his offensives made me evaluate his behavior more strictly. Regular attempts to go against consensus can be seen as disruptive and neglect towards WP:POINT, which disregard I criticize in other cases too, is especially frustrating. However I do knot know if a ban is a solution here, in other hand I would voice support for additional supervision of Cadet’s future conducts by neutral administrator. M.K. 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. Space Cadet is relentless in long term dealing with historical revisionism and equivocation, thus providing a much needed balance to other POV warriors who hold views opposing to his. Interestingly enough, Space Cadet gets occasional support from the German editors as well, not only from the Polish ones. Please take a look at this series of quick reverts. Matthead, Space Cadet, Matthead, and finally, Rex Germanus,. --Poeticbent talk 15:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As my name just popped up, I thought I'd join the discussion. First of all, despite what's implied above, I'm not a German editor, though I understand that my user:name might act as a false friend. Talking about 'false friends', I would like to warn everyone (especially the admins and persons unfamiliar with him) do not trust the person behind the 'EU' pic. ("     O      ") I can assure all of you (and a simple look at his contributions will say more than what I'm about to write) that the thing on this persons mind is not the EU, but to infect wikipedia with Pro-German and Anti-Polish nationalistic POV. So naturally he's against a Polish user like Spacecadet, and will try to do everything to get him banned (as proven by his numerous reactions above). I'll say this. Yes, Spacecadet is pro-polish, and yes, a little less Polish POV wouldn't hurt, but given that persons, like Matthead, are currently active on Poland-related articles ... we need all the spacecadets in this world just to compensate.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Naturally I STRONGLY OPPOSE the proposed bann.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

this sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" or "POINT counter-POINT / troll counter-troll" arithmetics is unhelpful, and of course very unwikilike. --dab (𒁳) 17:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah I see, and your 'the enemy of my friend is my enemy' is somehow morally superior? Please. It's fine with me that you don't like me Dbachman, absolutely fine, but keep it to yourself, and don't support 'users' like matthead to prove the proven.Rex 17:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I cannot conceive of any way to read my above comment as ad hominem, or supportive of Matthead. --dab (𒁳) 17:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Then I guess I'm not as limited as you are.Rex 20:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• SpaceCadet's pov is irrelevant, the question is, does he make an arguable effort to establish compromise. I see nothing blatant enough to warrant a topic ban. These slow Crossen/Krosno type toponym-wars are annoying, but they occur spontaneously from driveby IPs anyway, SpaceCadet doesn't need his account for that. If we can show that a significant portion of SpaceCadet's efforts on Misplaced Pages go into such toponym-wars, we should impose a toponym revert ban, or 1RR parole, not a topic-ban. Such a specialized ban could help him contentrating on adding content or building consensus instead of obsessing over placenames. --dab (𒁳) 17:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose ban the offense is way too minor for such a heavy action. German vs other language names (not only Polish, e.g. I know that the Dutch and Italians also have these issues with German editors) is a highly politicised issue. I am afraid nothing but banning all German and all Polish editors and IP's from these articles will help. Many good editors seem to get carried away, and I don't see SpaceDadet being other than the others. Hence no reason to ban him (alone) for this. Arnoutf 17:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Wissen Sie, daß diese Lösung nicht genug ist? Durova 04:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I like to notify 'Durova' that this is the Anglophone wikipedia. Say it in a way understandable to all or refrain from saying it. Show some respect.Rex 16:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

No offense intended. Arnoutf's post appeared humorous and I responded in kind. He had suggested a topic ban for all German and Polish editors, so I (an American) answered in German that his solution might not be sufficient. Durova 04:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

When I proposed this, I thought that this board had the main or only focus on long-term disruption rather than a recent and more urgent problem, and that bans can be appealed at the Arbitration Committee if a promising change of direction becomes obvious. Therefore I picked this board because I believed that this naming disruption was destined for eternity. I still believe in this eternity (yesterday, as ever ), though I agree with Banno that this here is going nowhere and apologize for the time this has all cost you. If there will be no end in sight and especially should it erupt in a more extreme way, I should like to take this to the Arbitration Committee, where also Dbachmann's suggestion could be considered and which should do justice to the concerns of it being a content dispute and Space Cadet in relative terms. I think it can be closed now. Sciurinæ 18:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Am I supposed to say something now? Well, I'm glad it's over, that's for sure. I wrote a beautiful response, just didn't enclose it early enough before the whole thing ended. I guess I'll save it for later, just in case. I will definitely try to learn from this experience. Happy editing, everyone! Space Cadet 20:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Move to close discussion. There is clearly no consensus for banning this editor. I don't think CSN is the correct forum for this dispute. Walton 15:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Seconded. Durova 04:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Catalonia closed

The above arbitration case has closed. Maurice27 (talk · contribs) is banned for 30 days, and the parties to the underlying content disputes are encouraged to continue with the normal consensus-building process to produce high-quality articles. For the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 02:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposing Community Ban on User:Ferrylodge

Ferrylodge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Perhaps some of you recall Ferrylodge, who has been waging a low-level edit war via attrition on Abortion and related pages since December 2006. His technique has been successful enough to drive at least one contributor (one of our better and more productive ones) from the project altogether. He has now turned his attention to harassing, attacking, and maligning me - using the same just-under-the-radar techniques - while continuing his tendentious editing. I have been ignoring this, but it has reached a point where I am now asking for community involvement.

His approach is that of a 'victim bully,' using claims of having been wronged to attempt to gain leverage over others. He has twisted my attempt to support consensus into me being an "edit warrior", my attempts to enforce policy and guidelines into "harassment" and so on. Examples, all taken from today: In the "edit war", he was blocked by MastCell for 3RR on Stillbirth, for insertion of the word "womb". My count (and I may have missed some) is six editors supporting "uterus" over "womb" as a more accurate and appropriate term, and one or two "no preference" editors, and one, Ferrylodge, edit warring to use the word "womb" - the debate has been spread over multiple articles. This is indeed a content dispute, I am well aware of that. I am not here for suggestions or help on the content dispute. I am here because Ferrylodge is maintaining his position that he alone is correct, that he alone is NPOV, that editors who disagree with him are disruptive edit warring POV pushers. No one supports his preferred phrasing and since his block, no one has reverted to his version or inserted the word. He added a POV tag to Abortion because his edit did not have consensus nor even support. This is dishearteningly similar to Sam Spade - in specific, that he "wages POV war designed to wear down opposition, even where he is in a minority of one, by sheer unreasonable persistence in the face of consensus", and he maligns those opposing him to make it appear that it is a personal matter on their part, rather than a policy matter on his. He even "strongly recommended" (on Talk:Pregnancy) that an opposing editor on the Stillbirth article be blocked for disruption, because of course it could not be a simple case of Ferrylodge editing against consensus - it must be that the other editor is disruptive!

He consistently cherry-picks my words to twist them into false meaning - for example, when I referred to a word as "vulgar" and to clarify I posted the definition link to the meaning of vulgar I was using (commonly used language), he removed it with the edit summary " Please do not post at my talk page, KC." - then proceeded to post on his talk page that "she said that I was trying to insert a "vulgar" word into the article. It astounds me that an admin can get away with such incivility, and I find it very difficult to respond in a constructive way to her personal attacks" - which is typical of his tactics, for I must either ignore his misrepresentation of my statement, or ignore his request to not post on his talk page - which surely he learned in his block for harassment would be harassment, as that is precisely what he was last blocked for. In short, he's using the "lessons learned" not to be a better Wikipedian, but to game the system so that he is "innocent" and I am "doing wrong." I am not the only editor he uses these tactics against, if similar evidence for these actions against other users is desired I can dig though his history and place them here.

I doubt that an Rfc would be of any help, because in the few previous instances I have seen of community input, Ferrylodge showed himself resistant to the concept that he could possibly have erred at all. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive252#Harassment Charge By Bishonen Against Ferrylodge, followed by Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Bishonen 2, followed by Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive259#Disruptive editing at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment by Ferrylodge - all of which stemmed from one 24-hour block, and all but the last were Ferrylodge stridently defending himself and accusing all and sundry. The last was a suggestion that he'd become disruptive enough on the Rfc talk page (post-closing) to be blocked. I argued against blocking for disruption, because the minute that was posted, he ceased the disruption. My mistake. I note a similar pattern of behavior every time attention is focused on Ferrylodge - he fades quietly into the background for a brief spell, then returns renewed to the attack. This has gone on long enough. KillerChihuahua 23:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• Hmmm, blocked once for harrassment already and still at it. Doesn't seem amendable to any view other than his own or willing to let matters drop, and too willing to carry a grudge. I doubt other forms of WP:DR will yield other outcomes. A ban seems warranted, and I'd support one. Odd nature 23:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support per all the evidence presented by KillerChihuahua, and the fact that he has been warned dozens of times to stop harassing KC, and he still continues with no attempt to be civil. Need I note that he was recently featured in the Washington Post for edit warring on the Fred Thompson article? ⇒ SWATJester 23:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Also would support a ban on Ferrylodge, or at minimum a topic ban of all pregnancy-related articles and all politics related articles. Incidentally, the article that Swatjester refers to can be found here. JoshuaZ 00:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support for ban However, per KC's comments and my own personal observations including this response, he needs to go. Moreover, this offensive RfC just begs for removal of this person from the project. OrangeMarlin 00:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• I admit that I am the contributor who has stopped editing Misplaced Pages due to having to deal with Ferrylodge's tendentious editing. I first encountered him in December 2006, when he came to Abortion,, which ended up leading to his first block for 3RR. I was accused of "request that be blocked," although I'd only reminded him to watch out for 3RR in an edit summary, and the blocking admin confirmed that he had acted indepedently. I tried to put this behind, and to focus on content, not the contributor, during the many disagreements that arose between Ferrylodge, myself, and other editors on abortion and pregnancy-related articles in the following months. It was difficult, though, because I sometimes got the impression that Ferrylodge was trying to make things personal, such as when he apparently went out of his way to insert himself into a minor dispute which arose between myself and an anonymous editor on Vaccine controversy, although the dispute did not involve Ferrylodge, and Ferrylodge had never edited the article in question. I am surprised to find that he is still making disruptive edits on the same constellation of articles — Abortion, Pregnancy, Stillbirth — after almost nine months. I think this is a very long time to learn the ropes on Misplaced Pages; Ferrylodge has had ample time to learn how to work cooperatively with other editors. When I felt that my personal frustation was beginning to compromise my ability to contribute to this community, I left, but Ferrylodge continues to edit despite the chip on his shoulder, and refuses to let bygones be bygones with regard to users like KillerChihuahua. I don't think it's fair to editors who have dedicated themselves to building this encyclopedia to have to sort out Ferrylodge's disruptive editing and confrontational behavior any longer than they already have. -Severa 01:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support motion. I just thought I would clarify in case this was unclear from the statement above. -Severa 02:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Please note that I have unblocked Ferrylodge so that he can participate and respond here. I had blocked him earlier today for violating 3RR; he requested an unblock to respond here, and I felt that was only fair. MastCell 03:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree, but only for commenting here. Any other editing or disruption and it's right back to blocksville. FeloniousMonk 03:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support block. He's a chronic troublemaker, unlikely to change. FeloniousMonk 03:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Also supporting. KillerChihuahua makes a strong case. As a second choice, would support a topic ban on reproduction and political articles. Durova 04:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban

Firstly, perhaps I should say that I personally am strongly inclined to side with KC on the issues in question and to oppose Ferrylodge's POV. But while Ferrylodge is clearly an obstinate editor, I don't believe the evidence presented by KillerChihuahua here is enough to warrant a ban. Nor do I see any evidence, that some have alluded to, of "harassment".

One inadvertent breach of 3RR in a year hardly constitutes grounds for a permaban, and I see little evidence of KC's assertion that Ferrylodge routinely defies consensus. For example, recent discussion at Talk:Abortion indicates that Ferrylodge has as much support for his views as opposition.

Ferrylodge seems prepared to discuss his concerns at length on talk pages, and I think if he were to make a commitment to agree to abide by consensus, that ought to be sufficient at this stage. If not, then I think this is a problem that would be best handled by an RFC, I don't see that it's severe enough at present to warrant intervention here. Gatoclass 07:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: This has nothing to do with POV - there are always editors of all POVs on the articles in question, and generally, we all work well together, or at least, well enough. This is an issue of low-level, constant warring, both on the articles, and against any editor FL perceives as "in his way". Like Sam Spade, the individual instances are annoying and bothersome, but not enough to bother doing much about - the volume is such that I haven't even bothered responding to most of his misrepresentations of my statements and views. But the sheer volume of it makes it impossible to ignore. If it were just that he accused me of harassment, I'd ignore. If it were just that he twisted everything I said into something else, I'd probably keep it between us. But he's driven off one editor completely, he is working on Tvoz, as seen by her lengthly evidence - and that from only 10 days. The three here are not the only ones. I posted instances from only one day, and could easily write a full page correcting his false representations and misleading statements from his response, below - and this is one reason he's a problem. He "responds" by a series of false or misleading statements about what "KC asserts" - all of which instances are utterly false or grossly inaccurate or misleading. His "willingness to discuss at length" bears this same flavor. Its not willingness to discuss, its wearing out the opposition in bullheaded obstinacy and unsupported accusations and misleading representations of the other party. What purpose would it serve if I were to spend the full page necessary to correct his false allegations against me in his response, below? We'd get the same kind of thing as we saw on ANI, where all but one editor told him the same exact thing, and he did not change his view or even concede that others might have any validity. He actually escalated it, having gotten no joy on ANI, to an Rfc. Read the ANI thread, read the Rfc, and I don't see how anyone can think an Rfc might have a positive effect. Actually, just read his response, which has nothing to do with him addressing any problems in his behavior, and everything to do with making it personal by attacking me, Bishonen, and Severa. Because, as usual, FL cannot possibly have erred at all - its everyone else who is in the wrong. KillerChihuahua 10:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Like Sam Spade...the sheer volume of it makes it impossible to ignore - KC

That may be the case, but perhaps I should remind you that Sam Spade was never permabanned from Wiki. Rather, he was placed on indefinite probation - after which he chose to cease editing of his own accord.

My concern is that CSN is being used to simply dispose of editors who hold unpopular positions. IMO, Wiki needs the editors who hold unpopular views, because they help to keep the majority honest. Maybe it's the case that Ferrylodge is just a disruptive troll, I don't know - but the case you have presented here is rather long on accusations and short on substance. Permabanning is a radical step, and IMO it should only be used in the worst cases, and backed up by the strongest possible evidence - everything else should go through normal arbitration processes. And while Ferrylodge plainly has made few friends on Misplaced Pages, I've yet to see much evidence to suggest that he has in recent times been anything more than a minor nuisance for editors who don't like his views or his obstinate approach. Gatoclass 17:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you might examine that statement. Are you saying that I, and Severa, and Tvoz, and Pleasantville, are "using" CSN to "dump" someone we don't agree with? That's a fairly strong insinuation that someone is gaming the system, and as the one who started this process, I can only take it that your "concern" is that it is I who am most likely to be guilty of "using CSN". I take exception to your hint that this might be a method to remove an editor I disagree with. KillerChihuahua 17:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with KC here. Tendentiousness is actually quite damaging to a project which functions on consensus, and in which one determined, obstinate editor can stall an article or discussion indefinitely. It's actually a far worse problem than vandalism (yet we keep hearing the arguments on this board that "well, he may be a tendentious POV-pusher, but at least he's not a vandal!") Lots of people hold "unpopular" opinions, but advancing those opinions in a disruptive or tendentious manner is the issue. MastCell 18:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, sorry, that was intended as a criticism of the process, not of the person or persons making use of it. I just happen to think that the process appears to lack adequate safeguards for the protection of users who take unpopular positions, that's all. You are of course perfectly entitled to bring up another editor's behaviour at this page, and even to call for their permanent banning if you feel so inclined. It's just that I am concerned that users may not always get the kind of process here that I think is warranted by the severe penalties that can be handed down. Gatoclass 18:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support - I have had numerous dealings with Ferrylodge (including, but not limited to, the Freddie/Fred dispute on Talk: Fred Thompson referred to in the Sept 17 Washington Post article) and several times in the last 10 days he misrepresented my edits or comments. I called him on it each time, and he has yet to retract or apologize for any of them. None of them are grievous, or the end of the world, but it is the pattern that I am raising here:

-On September 9, here, he erroneously claims that I had previously "urged" that the name be rendered in the way that he preferred and claimed that all he was doing was advocating the same thing I had advocated (which I had not); when I pointed out here that he misrepresented my edit, and that I had not even addressed the rendering of the name in that edit - just provided citations for it - he neither retracted his comment nor apologized for it as an error.

-On September 10 he went to WP:MOSBIO and tried to modify the relevant section to support his position on Fred/Freddie, but neglected to say why he was so interested in that section, claiming to only be looking at John Edwards' name; in the middle of the argument he claimed here that "Tvoz suggested I visited here, and I have taken up her suggestion", including this diff of mine which clearly indicates that in fact I asked him if he was planning to go to John Edwards' page to advocate changing his name rendering to match - if indeed his concern was that saying that Thompson was named Freddie would make him look silly, then surely the same would apply to Johnny Reid "John" Edwards. I clearly was not suggesting that he try to reword MOS policy to conform to his position. (My position was consistently that Edwards and Thompson's names should be handled in the same way as they are virtually identical situations.) When I pointed out that he was again misrepresenting my comments, he ignores the comment and does not apologize or rescind it, but goes on to ask me to AGF - he's the injured party. This misrepresentation is important because I think changing policy or guideline wording should not be done to bolster one's position in a content dispute - especially in a stealth manner - and his prominent and incorrect claim that he was doing so at my suggestion is putting words in my mouth that I never said - this is unacceptable, and I've yet to receive an apology.

-The third instance of his misrepresentation of my edits in the last 10 days came on Sept 15, in regards to a sourced comment by George Will in the Washington Post where he compares the launch of the Thompson campaign to the launch of New Coke. Ferrylodge claims "The article has again been edited (by Tvoz) to reinsert this material" and goes on to say that editors should "work by consensus, and not insist on inserting material into the article when it has been removed and rejected by multiple other editors", citing SBowers3 as one of the "multiple editors". First, I only made that edit once, not "again", and second, SBowers3 made his comments opposing the Will quote after I reinstated it, and indeed SBowers3 did not remove the George Will material at all, because he, unlike Ferrylodge, correctly recognized that there was an ongoing discussion and did not choose to edit war, just to discuss. Ferrylodge doesn't do that - he'll discuss, but only if his preferred wording is in place in an article, and he'll revert to his wording repeatedly, even when several editors are changing it. At the time I reinstated the material there were three editors including me who spoke up for including the material, and only two, Ferrylodge and Rosspz, who opposed it. I pointed out to Ferrylodge that he had misrepresented me for the third time, asked him to correct his comment on both counts. No apology for misrepresenting me was given, and although he edited his comment here, he did it in a way that didn't really address my objection.

-The fourth problem occurred on Sept 19, when Ferrylodge, by innuendo, falsely accused me of wikistalking because I commented in support of another editor's point that disagreed with his; I objected to the accusation, and he disingenuously said that some editors don't know what wikistalking is, and that he wasn't making accusations. Meanwhile I brought the conversation to his talk page and asked him to point out where I was harassing him or disrupting anything - which as another editor also pointed out is the key point in identifying wikistalking. He has had no reply, as I have done no such thing, yet he again did not apologize or rescind his accusation, only implied that I was accusing him of harassment which I was not.

Although on their own, individually, these instances are not particularly grievous (except perhaps the MOSBIO manipulation), taken together I think this reveals a pattern that is very disturbing, and I am only speaking here of the recent instances where I noticed his misrepresentations and unwillingness to admit error and apologize. I also have observed that often Ferrylodge's edits express his POV, rather than neutrally approaching the subject of reproduction on the one hand and political candidates on the other, and he tends to use bully tactics, editing in a tendentious manner, making disingenuous arguments. For all of these reasons, and based on comments of the editors above, I think that a ban is in order. Short of that I would concur with Durova in support of at least a partial ban on editing all reproduction and political articles. Tvoz |talk 09:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Regarding the MOSBIO issue, you have misrepresented the facts. As you can see in the history, Ferrylodge made only three edits, each time reverting Threeafterthree's attempt to manipulate the MOS to support their position on Fred/Freddie. The text after his final edit is identical to what it was before Threeafterthree messed with it. That's the exact opposite of your claim that he "tried to modify the relevant section to support his position". Now I'm not sure what he was thinking when he said that you had referred him there – maybe he confused you with Threeafterthree, since your names both start with T? – but your recounting of events is at least as flawed. (And to pick a truly minuscule nit, Ferrylodge's edits were on 9-Sep, not 10-Sep as you wrote - I point this out merely to demonstrate that memories aren't 100% perfect.) -- Zsero 18:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I was talking about his proposal on Misplaced Pages talk:MOSBIO of September 10, not his edits of Threeafterthree on September 9. See the diff I posted last night. He proposed a MOSBIO change here and the objection I raised above was not about the substance of his proposal, but about his misrepresentation of my role in it. I have not misrepresented the facts, Zsero. Tvoz |talk 20:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment about edit warring on Fred Thompson regarding Fred/Freddie. Regardless of what one can conclude from reading the Washpo article, and contrary to what is asserted below, Ferrylodge, with 7 reverts in one day on this one point, accused me - with only 2 - of edit warring. I'll leave it to others to reach conclusions, except to say that "one inadvertent breach of 3RR" is not quite the situation - it's just the only time he was called on it recently:

These are diffs of relevant edits by Ferrylodge on September 9, all but one of which are haggling about word order regarding Fred/Freddie, the other one was removing Freddie altogether:

1st revert: 05:52, 9 September 2007

2nd revert: 06:05, 9 September 2007

3rd revert: 06:20, 9 September 2007

4th revert: 06:33, 9 September 2007 (this one completely removed "Freddie" despite the reliable sources that accompanied the name)

5th revert: 16:09, 9 September 2007

6th revert: 17:41, 9 September 2007

7th revert: 17:50, 9 September 2007

These are my relevant diffs on September 9:

1st revert: 9:21 9 September 2007 (putting "Freddie" and sources back in)

2nd revert: 18:08, 9 September 2007

Tvoz |talk 09:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support I have had only limited and very recent interaction with Ferrylodge, but overall his tone was hostile and I asked repeatedly that he adopt a more civil tone, with no particular effect. Also disturbing was his tendency to preemptive accusation: accusing TVoz of wikistalking and then (on another page) clarifying that she hadn't wikistalked him yet but that he (apparently) anticipated that she would; preemptively accusing me of making unsourced modifications to an article, when I had not yet made the modifications, etc. He gave no explanation for his position that "motherhood" begins at conception and not, as it is usually defined, at the birth of one's child, but defended it simply with hostility.

Checking into his history, I find that he is a Men's Rights activist who's focus is the abortion issue (see the bottom of this page). In keeping with that, his Misplaced Pages edits focus strongly on abortion and related subjects: 511 edits to Roe v. Wade, 297 edits to Fetus, and many edits to Abortion in the United States, Intact dilation and extraction, Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, etc. This focus and his abrasive manner has lead to his being blocked twice, and seems to underly his insistance that his description of gestation be featured in the lede of the article Mother.

In summary, he has a strong point of view and seems to be using intimidation tactics to defend it. --Pleasantville 14:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Ok, now that's interesting. I'm not sure if this is germane or not, but I just noticed that all four of the editors who have posted evidence of having been seriously harassed by Ferrylodge, and the one administrator whose block he has protested for months, are female. And clearly self-identify as female. He has maligned Bishonen endlessly since she blocked him; he has never offered a peep about his other two blocks, and even apologized for breaking 3RR. KillerChihuahua 15:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  Ah, so now I'm a misogynist? If Pleasantville is female, I had no idea of that until just now. What I do know about Pleasantville is that she is a very unkind editor. I refer any interested readers to this discussion which is the only discussion I ever had with Pleasantville. KC has edited many abortion-related articles, and that mere fact does not imply anything about her POV; likewise, I fail to see how some DMOZ editor's POV can be deduced from a category that he or she edits. But apparently any shred of alleged information is fair game here.Ferrylodge 16:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  I'm missing where "Ferrylodge, please maintain a civil tone" is unkind, although your accusations she was "condescending, psychoanalyzing, and pretending that tone is not civil" in response to that gentle request seems a bit confrontational. KillerChihuahua 16:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  For clarification: My initials are also KC as in Kathryn Cramer; I presume for the purposes of this discussion,"KC" refers to KillerChihuahua. --Pleasantville 16:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, sorry about that. If anyone shortens your name, it will probably be "PV" for Pleasantville, which I hope will not be unduly confusing for everyone. KillerChihuahua 16:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support - Obvious case of WP:TE and of exhausting the community's patience. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I would also consider a topic ban on Abortion-related and other articles in which these behaviors have been observed, and a strong caution issued so that repeating that behavior in other articles will result in a full ban. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The behavior is troubling, but it does not seem to rise to the level of an outright community ban. I would support a topic ban and some sort of behavioral probation. Maybe mentoring is also appropriate. Dean Wormer 16:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to opine that I oppose this proposed ban. And rather strongly at that. I haven't had that much interaction with Ferrylodge, but it seems to me that Misplaced Pages would be better off if we were discussing something better than banning a contributor who, contrary to some people's opinions, does actually improve the encyclopedia. I can't comment on the uterus/womb dispute, but in a lot of cases, it does look like he is being railroaded because of his point of view. There is a content dispute that he is a part of. But it takes two (or more) to edit war. I've seen Ferrylodge be a helpful contributor on the Fred Thompson article, and agree with some of what he says below. I didn't follow Bishonen's 2nd RfC, but at first glance it does seem like people were just laughing at Ferrylodge. I don't know the full details, but community bans are not for useful contributors. If he was revert warring, block him accordingly. No need to deprive the project of a helpful contributor forever. He's not a vandal, he's not unhelpful, he participates in discussion (although sometimes not as well as we'd all like), and he's not creating a big enough disruption that it is shutting the encyclopedia down. He may deserve to be blocked, but he doesn't deserve this. Mahalo. --Ali'i 16:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment How about instead of an outright ban or a topic ban, a restriction to one revert per week (that is per 168 hours) per article? Or something like that, anyway. Perhaps that's too strict, perhaps that's not strict enough. Perhaps 2RR per week with a maximum of 3RR per month. This would seem likely to take care of many of the concerns raised above. --Yamla 16:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • That might be a workable solution. I think that the major problem here is indeed tendentiousness; Ferrylodge has often persisted in beating a dead horse when he's failed to convince anyone else of his argument. Restricting him from edit-warring (e.g. with 0RR or 1RR) would allow him to continue to contribute, but he would need to actually build consensus to see his proposed edits enacted. I do think that continuing the status quo is a bad idea, as there's clearly a problem here; I also wonder whether a full siteban without an intermediate step is overkill, though I'm not categorically opposed. MastCell 17:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
    • That sounds more reasonable to me. I think an approach along these lines would probably be more appropriate at this stage. Gatoclass 17:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• • • (after ec) Which would be acceptable were it only his DE; however, its also the harassment and accusations he bogs people down with which is a massive problem. Did you not see his accusation that Pleasantville is "not nice" and when one looks, oh hey, she asked him very nicely and politely and delicately to be civil - which resulted in a response of him making further and FAR more hostile accusations. I don't know how anyone can see his history and the linked information and somehow conclude this has anything to do with his POV. No one cares what his POV is, so far as I know - I certainly don't, its irrelevant - its his nasty insinuations, false accusations, personalizing of any type of disputes, and edit warring as a minority of one which is the problem. He was blocked for 3RR, and his disingenuous argument below is that "there was only one edit on talk:stillbirth - conveniently ignoring the thirty or so on the previous articles where he was waging that little war before taking it to other articles. This is precisely the situation with his RCOG edit warring: everyone but he stated clearly there was zero reason to characterize RCOG as "pro-choice" - on talk:abortion. When he took the term off to the RCOG article that very same day, he stridently protested that there had been no discussion, because it hadn't been discussed on the RCOG talk page. Now, this is beyond nonsensical. If they aren't pro-choice, and there are no sources to say they are pro-choice, it really doesn't matter where that statement is made, its unsourced. Its not the revert warring. Its the approach and the treatment of others. I see some people are actually swallowing his story that there is some kind of dispute between the two of us. If the community wishes to give a topic ban, I selfishly would be happy enough, as if he's off the pregnancy and abortion articles I won't have to deal with him any more, and hopefully we won't lose Pleasantville as we lost Severa. However, from what I see here, Swatjester and Tvoz among others might object to continuing to deal with him on political articles. I have no idea about the legal articles, I don't edit or watch them. But if there is to be any kind of helpful resolution, it must address his behavior towards others. I cannot spend the hours of time it would take to refute and correct every spurious charge he makes against me, and it is wearing to the spirit to have to contend with that kind of character assassination day in day out. its why Severa left. Its why the other people who have been treated this way are here. Its not something "between me and FL" it is something about how FL treats others. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. All I know about is what happened at the Fred Thompson, and it's been completely misrepresented here. Ferrylodge was simply maintaining the status quo while a contention proposed change was being discussed. That's what's meant to happen, isn't it? If you want to make a change to an article, and it's strongly opposed, you're meant to discuss it on the Talk page and see whether a consensus develops for or against it. You do not keep re-inserting your change while the discussion is going on. The status quo should be maintained, and that's exactly what Ferrylodge was doing. Any blame for edit-warring belongs squarely on the shoulders of those who insisted on making their change without first achieving consensus for it.

As for the 3RR that got him blocked, which is supposedly the trigger for this discussion, I disagree with Yamla's claim that the four reverts were all essentially the same because they all "serve to reintroduce "womb" each time in any case". At first he seems to have tried to revert the unilateral attempt to change "womb" to uterus, as was his right; when that encountered opposition, he seems to have tried for a compromise that would include both words. That's a substantive difference, and should not have been counted as a continuation of the same revert. He should never have been blocked in the first place, and this discussion should not have been initiated.

-- Zsero 19:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Say what you will about the community ban, but you're wrong about the 3RR block. Four edits in the space of a few hours which undo another editor's work, in full or in part, violate not only the spirit but the letter of 3RR. You may want to re-read WP:3RR, because this one was open-and-shut. MastCell 20:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have interacted with Ferrylodge since roughly January of this year. Things got so intense that I had to take a wikibreak, and consciously avoided FL for a while. I think a good example of what many people find objectionable is this: Talk:Abortion#New paragraph and technical language. Reasonable objections to the proposal are ignored, and the replies are short, smug, and throwing back a strawman caricature of what the previous person had said. If this isn't patronizing, or an attempt to bait, then I don't know what is. So after 4 different editors objected the the proposal, FL makes a threat to " a POV tag on this article", which he later fulfills (and decided to make the same general arguments from 4 days before while attacking myself and KC). It is just frustrating to try to work with someone who is combative and defensive. While we can't make people be nice to one another, it sure is civil to have humility and sympathy with those you disagree with.

One of the issues is, the negative conduct only comes out during content disputes. From having interacted with FL, and reading all these others who have interacted with him on other articles, it seems clear that this is more than just a handful of people trying to get a user who they politically disagree with banned. It's about if you say something critical about FL, you are bound to get something worse and more hurtful thrown back at you (i.e. Pleasantville saying Please try to adopt a more civil tone. You seem to be extremely anxious about this and FL responding Please stop condescending, psychoanalyzing, and pretending that my tone is not civil. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in that regard. ), it's about an editor who behaves childishly when he doesn't get his way, and editor who leaves editors hurt after content disputes, and has no regrets or apologies.

So what will a topic ban do? Will it prevent him from getting in content disputes? Will it make him realize that his editing has hurt a lot of editors? That reasonably, he should feel guilt or remorse and apologize, even though that seems to go against his very nature. Clearly a topic ban will not solve these underlying issues. It will just help the editors with whom he spars feel more comfortable in the topics they regularly edit, knowing that they don't have a difficult editor to deal with anymore. Limiting the number of reverts wouldn't help because the main issue is how he handles himself on talk pages during disputes, not his excessive breaking of revert rules.

Now, I do not believe that those of us who have interacted with FL should be the ones to decide his editing fate on wikipedia. And because of that, I will not vote one way or another (at least not yet) in regards to a block or topic ban or whatever. It does seem a little suspicious that editors who have disagreed with FL in the past are now here in troves saying he be permibanned, while editors who have sided with him are saying he shouldn't (with a few uninvolved parties on both sides). I believe the ban was given out too early, and I believe we should wait for more uninvolved parties to examine this.

For those uninvolved parties, I'd say look at FL's recent edit history at Talk:Pregnancy, Talk:Abortion, Talk:Mother. There is a pattern of moving debates from one article to the next, even if (and perhaps especially if) consensus is not going his way. There is a pattern of boarderline incivility (and clearly patronizing) posts when consensus isn't going his way or if he is called out on his editing behavior. If anyone examining this case decided to look at FL's talk page, I recommend searching through the page history, because not all posts that were made to FL are represented in the linked "archives". Additionally, the RfC is an example of FL knowing that he can never be wrong taken to the extreme (just see how he still refers to this day). I'd be glad to discuss the conflicts from early 2007 that I/Severa were involved with, but I think the important thing is that concerns of FL's talk page behavior during disputes date back to then. And not a whole lot has changed. -Andrew c  22:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply to KillerChihuahua's Proposed Community Ban

I have been editing at Misplaced Pages since April of 2004. As KillerChihuahua knows, I was blocked today for the third time, so I have been blocked on average once per year. The current block was for 3RR when I reverted KillerChihuahua, and I have already apologized repeatedly for it at my talk page. As MastCell put it, I "did show contrition for violating 3RR." If anyone wants to read the details at my talk page, here's the link. Mastcell also noted that, "There's been incivility on both sides."

KillerChihuahua has taken this opportunity to build a case for banning me. I disagree with her, and would like to explain why.

KillerChihuahua has been uncivil to me today. At the abortion article today, she asserted that my words are "bullshit". At the pregnancy article today, she suggested that I am "naive and disingenuous." More recently, at the stillbirth article, she said that I am a "spammer". Actually, the "spam" to which she referred was a list of definitions of the word "womb" from reliable sources, and I had not previously listed those definitions (or any of them) anywhere else, prior to listing them in the stillbirth article. More examples of incivility abound. Here, KC said that my words are "inane." Here she said that my behaviour served no purpose, "unless your purpose is to convince others that you are congenitally dense."

Let's look at KC's allegations. She says that I have been waging a low-level edit war via attrition on abortion and related pages since December 2006, fading in and out like some kind of guerilla. It is true that I have edited those pages, among many many others, as can be seen from my contribution history. I have 271 articles on my watchlist, and I do not enjoy the hassles of continuously editing the abortion-related articles, so I revisit them now and then.

I will pass over KC's generalized allegations (which I deny) and go to her specific examples. She starts with the example of the stillbirth article, which involved the 3RR for which I have apologized today (involving my third block in as many years). KC says: "My count (and I may have missed some) is six editors supporting 'uterus' over 'womb' as a more accurate and appropriate term, and one or two 'no preference' editors, and one, Ferrylodge, edit warring to use the word 'womb' - the debate has been spread over multiple articles....Ferrylodge is maintaining his position that he alone is correct, that he alone is NPOV, that editors who disagree with him are disruptive edit warring POV pushers. No one supports his preferred phrasing and since his block, no one has reverted to his version or inserted the word."

But look at the actual discussion at stillbirth that KC emphasizes. Prior to KC's appearance at that article, a grand total of one single editor (ConfuciusOrnis) sought to completely remove the word "womb" from that stillbirth article. I wrote a talk page response to that one single editor, in which I pointed out that I was not seeking to introduce the word "womb" into the article, seeing as how that word had been in the article long before I ever touched that stillbirth article.. Moreover, I explained that I was not advocating removing the word "uterus" from the article, but rather believed the article should contain both words, which are synonymous.

If there had been more than just one other editor trying to change the stillbirth article to completely delete the word "womb", then I would have acquiesced, with objections. But there was only one. KillerChihuahua then came to the stillbirth article today, and reverted in favor of ConfuciusOrnius here. I now quote her edit summary verbatim: "Ferrylodge I have no idea why you are so in love with the word 'womb' but please stop this silly campaign to use an inaccurate and non-specific vulgar term. Write a poem or something. 'Ode to the womb.'" I am not in love with the word "womb". Rather, I objected to the recent effort (of the last two days) to completely delete this word "womb" from all of Misplaced Pages's abortion-related and pregnancy-related articles. I have never suggested that either the word "uterus" or the word "womb" should be completely removed, but have instead contended that they are synonymous words so that neither should be eliminated from Misplaced Pages. After all, Misplaced Pages guidelines say: "Write for the average reader and a general audience—not professionals or patients. Explain medical jargon or use plain English instead if possible."

In addition to KillerChihuahua's rude edit summary (accusing me of a silly campaign and telling me to go write a poem), Killerchihuahua also commented very briefly at the talk page, accusing me of spamming the stillbirth talk page. Please look at what she erroneously called "spam": a detailed list of reliable sources stating that those two words ("womb" and "uterus") are synonymous --- at that time (14:13 on 20 September) I had not shown that list anywhere else but at the stillbirth talk page (I would later copy the list at 14:45 in the pregnancy discussion because people were similarly attempting to completely delete the longstanding word "womb" from that pregnancy article as well). Instead of replying civilly at the stillbirth discussion page, KillerChihuahua blithely called the list of references in the stillbirth talk page "spam", and reverted my edit without addressing that list of references whatsoever (beyond her insults in the edit summary and her accusation of spam at the talk page).

Killerchihuahua suggests that no one has agreed with me that the word "womb" can sometimes be used in addition to the word "uterus" in these types of articles. She is incorrect. Hoplon has agreed with me today. Also, Agne has also agreed with me that "'womb' is undoubtedly the more common term. Both Misplaced Pages policies and common sense implores us to look at the context of each usage and decide which one is one appropriate." I understand the need to acquiesce when outnumbered. I've done it a million times at Misplaced Pages (more than I would like). And I am prepared to do it here as well, though I detest the effort to completely delete the word "womb" from numerous Misplaced Pages articles where it has coexisted with the word "uterus" for years, without any fuss at all.

KillerChihuahua's next example is the POV tag that I added to the abortion article. In my entire three years at Misplaced Pages, I have never before added a POV tag once until this week. I do it twice this week and that's grounds for banishment? Killerchihuahua is incorrect when she says that I had no support at the abortion article; you can go to the discussion page and see the support. For example, LCP wrote today that his "main argument is that the lack of any image of what is aborted or any mention of how what is aborted is disposed of harms the credibility of this article." When the POV tag was removed for a second time, I did not edit-war about its removal. And I stand by my contention that the abortion article is slanted; it contains virtually no description of what is aborted, and KC has insisted yet again this week that the article not even contain a single image of what is aborted.

KC also criticizes me because I "strongly recommended" (on Talk:Pregnancy) that an opposing editor on the Stillbirth article be blocked for disruption; she sarcastically writes: "of course it could not be a simple case of Ferrylodge editing against consensus." As I already pointed out, at that time there was only one single editor (ConfuciusOrnis) at the stillbirth article who wanted the word "womb" to be completely deleted from that article though it had been in that article for years. ConfuciusOrnis was edit-warring about it, as the article's edit history shows. If one editor supports a change in the article, and another editor opposes the change, how does that create a "consensus" for changing the article? KC is flat wrong about that.

KC also asserts that I should be banned because I asked her today to not post on my talk page. I have previously been accused of harassing KC at her talk page, and I have not gone anywhere near her talk page since that accusation. Am I under an obligation to allow her to post at my talk page? Is it grounds for banishment for an editor to politely ask another editor to post elsewhere than at the first editor's talk page? KC also complains that I cherry-pick her statements. I quoted her above several times, and I provided a link every time. Is it cherry-picking to mention that she characterizes my words as "bullshit"? If KC does not want such insults to be cherry-picked, then she should not utter them in the first place.

KC also asserts that "Ferrylodge showed himself resistant to the concept that he could possibly have erred at all." That is obviously false, and she knows it. Earlier today, I repeatedly apologized for my 3RR error. Likewise, yesterday, I specifically apologized to KC for another error here. When I make mistakes, I try to own up to them.

Lastly, KC complains about an RfC that I initiated against Bishonen. That was the only RfC that I have ever initiated against anyone during my entire three years at Misplaced Pages, although I did once join an RfC launched by someone else. KC is now seeking to dredge up that incident, and to get the last word. I feel compelled to briefly respond yet again. In my view, the harassment charge against me several months ago was inappropriate. Killerchihuahua never asked me to leave her talk page. Bishonen asked me to leave KC's talk page, but Killerchihuahua did not. I did leave KC's talk page after denying the harassment charge, and I was blocked for denying the charge. How many other people at Misplaced Pages are blocked for harassing someone who never asked to be left alone? When I subsequently brought an RfC against Bishonen, Bishonen rounded up her friends, who proceeded to abuse the RfC, for example byposting images of food and the like. Neither I, nor the editor who joined me in the RfC, agreed with the outcome, but I dropped the matter rather than going through a time-consuming and disruptive arbitration.

So, those are my responses to KC's initial post here. I may or may not have further comments, depending upon whether time permits, although I will be travelling on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (September 21-23) and therefore will not have internet access.

I would like to very briefly respond now to Swatjester, who mentions a recent article in the Washington Post, which mentioned me. No objective person could read that article and conclude that I was edit-warring, anymore than they conclude that the other mentioned editor (Tvoz) was edit-warring. The fact of the matter is that there was a lot of controversy at the Fred Thompson article, and the majority of editors agreed with my position. Why should I be banned from Misplaced Pages because a majority of editors agreed with me about a particular matter?

You know quite well that's not why you're being requested to be banned. Don't attempt to hide this in a content issue; this is about your disruptive behavior. ⇒ SWATJester 17:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I will also briefly respond now to Severa. KillerChihuahua accuses me above of "using claims of having been wronged to attempt to gain leverage over others." Then Severa posts her comment that she "stopped editing Misplaced Pages due to having to deal with Ferrylodge's tendentious editing." I wonder if KC will criticize Severa for "using claims of having been wronged to attempt to gain leverage over others."

Severa is upset about a comment that I made at a talk page over six months ago, and here is the entire comment: "I have posted a general comment about reverts, and the need to explain them, here." That's it. I have little recollection of it, but if people really believe that such a brief comment six months ago supports banning me, then I will investigate further, and try to reconstruct why Severa could have been so offended by such a brief remark by me. My understanding of "wikistalking" is that it's done to harass, whereas it's perfectly OK to monitor a user if one believes that the user's edits are suspect and need another eye. I hardly think that that one brief sentence over six months ago is even remotely related to wikistalking.

I have no grudge against anyone at Misplaced Pages, including KillerChihuahua. But that does not mean I should relax and accept being called a "bullshit" artist, or the like, does it? My goal is to calmly develop a neutral and well-referenced incredible encyclopedia. If anyone looks at my contributions in toto, I believe you will find that they have helped reach that goal, including my edits to abortion-related articles. Among other things, I brought the Roe v. Wade article through a featured article review, and have done much else to improve Misplaced Pages, and I am proud of it.Ferrylodge 05:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Given your repeated claims that you will not apologize ever to KillerChihuahua, you most certainly do have a grudge. ⇒ SWATJester 17:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I will tell you what the concern is, Ferrylodge. Had you responded in a manner that shows some kind of understanding and acceptance that your behavior has been disruptive, I would have reconsidered my support for a community ban or a topic ban. We all make mistakes, and can learn not to repeat them, if willing. That is a choice we all have. But your response is a defense in which you claim that you have not erred, when the evidence is overwhelming that you did. That's a pity. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Tvoz

Tvoz has made some pretty extensive comments above, and so I should respond. Tvoz and I were both honored to appear in a Washington Post article together recently. The subject was the rather trivial matter about how Fred Thompson's name should be presented in his Misplaced Pages article. Ultimately, the position that I supported prevailed (at least for the time being), and Tvoz is understandably not happy about that.

Tvoz now charges me with four separate "misrepresentations." However, she mischaracterizes all four of those matters.

Tvoz, please look at this edit of yours on September 9. When a person (such as yourself) footnotes a proposition, the implication is that the person supports the proposition. You are wrong to seek my banishment merely because I inferred your support for a proposition that you yourself footnoted. You’re entitled to correct the misimpression left by your edit, but please don’t demand apologies from me for drawing a perfectly reasonable inference. People do not normally footnote propositions with which they disagree.

I'll quibble with that: in that very same matter, I introduced a link to an image of Thompson's first marriage certificate, and argued for retaining it, although it tended on the whole to support Tvoz's position rather than ours. OTOH, Tvoz expressed surprise at my action, and seemed to think I didn't realise that it tended to support her position, which tends to support your claim that this behaviour is unusual. But it's all a bit murky. -- Zsero 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Tvoz's suggestion that I crept over to the wp:mosbio and supposedly neglected to say why I was so interested, please look again. Before I ever suggested any change to the mosbio, I loudly and plainly announced at mosbio that I was concerned about Fred Thompson.

Tvoz also says that I “misrepresented” her suggestion that I visit the John Edwards page to argue about how Edwards's name should be presented. I visited the MOSBIO (instead of John Edwards's page) and mentioned that Tvoz had suggested I do so. What difference does this miniscule error make? Tvoz was suggesting that I argue about how John Edwards’s name is presented, so what difference does it make if I ended up making that argument at MOSBIO as opposed to at the John Edwards article? Why is this more than splitting hairs? What possible benefit could I derive from this incredibly slight imprecision? Tvoz keeps saying that I “misrepresented” her, but there was no dishonesty on my part, only an extremely slight imprecision.

Then Tvoz piles on with alleged misrepresentation #3: that I said “The article has again been edited (by Tvoz) to reinsert this material.” I only meant that the article had been edited to reinsert the material more than once, and that Tvoz was the person who did so the last time. After Tvoz requested that I clarify, I did here, in order to emphasize that the material was previously reinserted by another editor instead of by Tvoz. What more could I possibly do than correct myself? These are extremely slight matters, and not relevant to a proposed ban.

Then Tvoz alleges a fourth misrepresentation: she says that I falsely accused her of wikistalking. But I told Tvoz point blank: “I am not making accusations. Some users are unaware that it is bad form to follow other users around. If you are following me around (from Fred Thompson to abortion to mother), then I would kindly ask you to please stop.” Do you want me to engrave that in gold and send it to you, Tvoz? How can I say that I am not making accusations any better than that?

And as for the other events at the Fred Thompson article, here’s a link in case anyone’s interested.Ferrylodge 10:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Your point? I was in the WaPo article as well. Doesn't dismiss Tvoz's evidence that you have been edit warring on the FredThompson page. The fact that your tendentious editing rose to the level of finding its way to the FRONT PAGE of the Washington Post due to your edit war over Fred Thompson's name, should be a telling sign of your tendentious editing tendencies. That Pleasantville suggests that you may also be misogynist only makes even more sense; the weight of the evidence apparently supports it, and it is pretty widely known that my history with Pleasantville has been less than stellar. At your fourth "misrepresentation" it does not matter how you couch your words in the illegitimate form of a question. You were accusing Tvoz of stalking you. Saying "I'm not making accusations. Stop stalking me." is itself a clear accusation. At your second "misrepresentation" you say "Tvoz keeps saying that I “misrepresented” her". Your entire freaking argument is about how she's misrepresenting you. Which is it? ⇒ SWATJester 17:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is completely wrong. The WaPo piece was not about Ferrylodge's "edit war"; it would be just as fair to say that it was about Tvoz's "edit war". Tvoz was the one who insisted on making a change without first achieving consensus for it.

Pleasantville's accusation of misogyny is contemptible, and there's nothing at all to support it - we generally don't know each other's sexes around here. I only learned that Tvoz was a woman from the WaPo.

And no, Ferrylodge did not say or imply "Stop stalking me", which would indeed be an accusation; he said, in effect, "please don't stalk me". When asked about this, he made it clear that his warning was preemptive, not an accusation of misconduct that had already happened.

Zsero 19:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Where have I allegded that Ferrylodge is a misogynist? I have pointed out (correctly) that he is the editor of a "Men's Rights" page concerning reproductive rights. If in Zsero's opinion, "Men's rights" are misogynist, he is entitled to his opinion, but that is not my opinion. --Pleasantville 21:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Pleasantville didn't. Ferrylodge accused Pleasantville of alleging he was a misogynist. Or he accused me, that part is unclear. I think it was probably me. However, it was a fairly typical case of Ferrylodge inflating and twisting what someone else said, so that now Zsero is left with the impression Pleasantville alleged something she didn't. KillerChihuahua 22:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Summary so Far

So, it seems that there are a few choices after some discussion:

• - Outright ban (seems excessive)
• - Topic ban on reproduction and US politics
• - Edit Warring parole (1RR or similar)

After reading this I think that an edit warring parole is the place to start, and that the specifics of it should not be limited to reverts of article space. The parole should include all facets that have been discussed of tenditious distruptive behavior. --Rocksanddirt 17:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

1RR per week site-wide in all namespaces and topic ban from reproduction-related and U.S. politics articles, per Yamla. Also, an immediate, total site ban if Ferrylodge is discovered circumventing his restrictions with sockpuppets.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.94.194 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 21 September 2007

• I support an outright ban. Reading his comments and viewing his history he's not ammenable to change. Odd nature 18:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that this matter, seeing opposition (including my own) to the outright ban, should be requested to be discussed by the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration committee. The top of this page reads, "Complex or ambiguous cases should go to dispute resolution." This isn't the type of case that should really be handled by the community sanction noticeboard. I know some of you have said, "I don't think dispute resolution would work", but you never bothered to try the next steps. Bans are supposed to be a last resort. Please consider taking this to the ArbCom. Mahalo nui loa. --Ali'i 18:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Banned

Based on the overwhelming consensus for a ban seen here, I've blocked Ferrylodge idedfinitely. FeloniousMonk 18:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Concur. (See Tom Harrison's quote on my user page.) Raymond Arritt 18:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose this (in my opinion, premature) indef block, as I don't think you can determine "overwhelming consensus" after less than 24 hours of discussion. (However, I have no opinion on the overall merits of the case against Ferrylodge yet, as I haven't had the chance to fully review his contributions). JavaTenor 18:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

He can appeal it if he wants. But this was approaching snowball's chance in Tahiti of not happening. OrangeMarlin 18:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I object to such a quick decision, and also object to this being characterized as a WP:SNOW situation. There are numerous objections above, which, if you read WP:SNOW, is not a snowball. - Dean Wormer 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support Odd nature 18:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strongest Possible Support Filll 18:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support OrangeMarlin 19:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support. He can show some contrition and appeal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support (obviously, but just for the record) KillerChihuahua 19:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - "overwhelming consensus"? I make the vote thus far 9 to 6 in favour of an outright ban versus a lesser penalty measure. That doesn't seem very "overwhelming" to me. Gatoclass 19:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  comment: Its not a "penalty". Please feel free to ask me about this on my talk page, but blocks are always preventative, not punitive. That you so clearly misunderstand the purpose and intent of blocking and banning leads me to be concerned that your reasoning in other areas concerning this may be somewhat faulty as well. KillerChihuahua 19:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite frankly, the difference seems semantic to me. You may throw someone in jail as a "preventative measure" rather than a "punishment", but I doubt the terminology makes much difference to the timeserver. Gatoclass 19:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• I object, strongly. This was a fucking terrible call. See my statement above this section for my reasoning. Mahalo. --Ali'i 19:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: After months after months of low-level disruptive editing, this editor has to be dealt with, IMHO. If there are not enough people to support this ban, and/or if this editor successfully appeals, then of course he should be welcomed back to WP. For now, this gives the community time to look at his egregious and shameful record of past abuses and consider if this is the kind of element we support having here. And we can do so without his excessive interference and personal attacks on those considering the situation while we contemplate his record, as he has done in the past when corrective measures and guidance were suggested or offered. If it is decided this was done with excessive alacrity, then it can of course be reversed, right?--Filll 19:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support -Severa 19:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support a full ban (though I do think the implementation of it was premature). I read all of the evidence (and more) yesterday and waited until Ferrylodge had a chance to respond (perhaps others did the same?). I found his response lacking in both remorse for his incorrect actions and truth. I looked at the things he claimed supported his position, and his misrepresentations of what actually happened were clear, which is in keeping with all of the other evidence presented I'd love it if a parole or topic ban would help, but based on his past, I don't think either will. It's a fundamental issue here. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  I concur. It did happen rather fast, but apparently was driven largely by his own response (based on edit summaries.) And it was much longer than the time it took for Theodore7's ban, for example. KillerChihuahua 19:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support ban Ugh, just finished going through his responses and some of his earlier talk page contribs. The user is incorrigible, a ban is the only way to stop his disruption. ornis (t) 19:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose and object. There's hardly been time - I only learned about this last night. Of course there's an initial surge of support for a ban, because those users knew about it first. It's especially unfair since Ferrylodge's ability to respond to accusations has been extremely limited (his IP at work remains blocked, and he's already said he'll be away from the net over the weekend). This block is completely unfair, and all on its own justifies Ferrylodge's claim to be the victim here. It looks to me like a lynching. I demand that it be reversed at once. -- Zsero 19:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the IP not working... it was a lingering autoblock from my 3RR block. I used our autoblock-finding tool to undo it when I unblocked Ferrylodge's main account, but it didn't show any autoblocks, so I was confused. As it turns out, the autoblock finder was malfunctioning, so I was unable to find and undo the autoblock on Ferrylodge's work IP. I apologize for this technical problem. MastCell 20:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• • Especially when the one doing the final deed is involved in the discussion. Like I said... this has all the appearances of a railroading. Oh, the irony. --Ali'i 19:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it does not pass the smell test. It should be reversed for further discussion, to allow an actual "overwhelming" consensus to form. Several options were proposed, and were not discussed fully. Dean Wormer 19:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

2.5:1 in favor of a ban passes my smell test, pal. Odd nature 20:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Your use of the word "pal" in this context is decidedly uncivil. Please reformulate your response. 2.5:1 is certainly not an "overwhelming" consensus, nor a snowball. The discussion isn't over yet. Dean Wormer 21:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

At the moment it is running 4:1 in favor of a ban, so if something is rotten in Denmark here, it is not the consensus for a ban. It must be something else. Hmm...I wonder what that might be?--Filll 20:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

And what exactly is it you are implying with that thinly veiled lack of AGF? Dean Wormer 21:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Come now, this can easily be reversed if the situation is as unfair, biased and one-sided as you assert it is. What this does is, create a breathing space for the community to consider this festering DE problem that has polluted WP for at least 9 months in an unimpeded manner. Past evidence suggests that in some cases, pre-emptive measures are appropriate and prudent since those considering the record of this editor do not themselves want to be subjected to intimidation and harassment and wikilawyering. If in a calm, contemplative atmosphere, it is determined by the community that some mistake has been made, or some rules violated, or some element of protocol applied inappropriately, this decision can be revisited and reversed, of course.--Filll 19:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, let's tape the defendant's mouth while we all discuss which tree to hang him from. This is a f---ing travesty. -- Zsero 19:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is more like taking the defendant's gun away from him while we discuss his fate, when the defendant has previously fired his gun at those who dared suggest he had done anything inappropriate.--Filll 19:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What gun? You're assuming what it's up to you to prove. All he's done that I can see is defended himself when attacked, and pointed out that he has not in fact done the things people have accused him of. And now you're taping his mouth shut to prevent him from doing so. Verdict first, trial after. In any case, he's already said he'll be away from home over the weekend, and he can't edit from work, so what are you afraid of? That he'll get a word in edgewise when he can manage a net connection that isn't blocked? -- Zsero 20:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I suspect Zsero is unaware of this editor's past behavior when challenged, which goes well beyond "defending himself". I suggest you review the record carefully before making such statements.--Filll 20:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Zsero here is a frequent revert-partner (I'd go so far as to say an accomplice) in Ferrylodge's tendentious editing. Zsero should probably be on revert parole himself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.174.171.187 (talk • contribs)

Please do not make personal attacks. It is not productive, and your reasoning is flawed. We are not all in cohoots with Ferrylodge. Dean Wormer 19:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose block (for now at least) per Ali'i and the lack of time. As I read more about Ferrylodge's action, I became more incline to advocate a strong topic ban (including contact with KC) with 1RR but action was taken far to prematurely without clear consensus to do so. This was far from a WP:SNOW situation. Agne/ 19:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh, I don't know about that, there was a clear consensus and whatever support for Ferrylodge there was was weak and scatered, and none made very compelling arguments for not banning. Add that to his total lack of contrition and the additional evidence presented by Raymond Arritt, and I don't see how he wouldn't be banned. He practically begged for it in his response. Odd nature 19:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree there was consensus for some kind of sanction but I don't see how you can read the above small sampling of response and see anything close to a WP:SNOW consensus for indef ban. Couple that with the incredibly short time frame and it clear that the block was premature and (right now) inappropriate. Agne/ 19:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Object I am adding my objection here, as my objection above is nested within a sub thread. Dean Wormer 19:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support, we must always protect our project and its volunteers from chronic harassment and abuse. How much longer do we accommodate Ferrylodge's disruption? 84.174.171.187 19:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support, for reasons argued in the initial discussion; Ferrylodge is an activist with an unremitting agenda. --Pleasantville 20:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hold on there, are you saying that there are political motivations at play here? Then I object even more strenuously. This is starting to sound like a content dispute. Dean Wormer 20:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to his contributions. I have severe objections to his past behavior, which is well beyond what should be allowed in the project. And this is true no matter what is personal political position or agenda might be on any particular issue.--Filll 20:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Dean Wormer: I was summarizing my initial statement. See above in the first discussion. My remarks pertain to behavior rather than to the specifics of his opinions. --Pleasantville 20:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support ban. Guettarda 20:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support a full ban – dave souza, talk 20:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• CommentA pre-emptive block during an ongoing discussion is very poor form, especially when it undermines the actions of another admin - Mastcell specifically unblocked Ferrylodge so that he could participate in this discussion. See Misplaced Pages:Wheel war. I note that FeloniousMonk has also tagged Ferrylodge's userpage with the community ban template, without closing this discussion. Very poor choices for an admin. Banno 21:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not pretend to know all the niceties and protocols that hold here. However, I do know what the past record shows. And I for one, would not welcome a personal attackod or having an RfC filed against me for no good reason, or other tactics this editor has employed in the past. Enough is enough.--Filll 21:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not preemptive block. FM's block summary implies just the opposite, that the block was instantiating a ban which had consensus, both true BTW. Odd nature 21:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: FeloniousMonk didn't add the tags to Ferrylodge's page. KillerChihuahua 21:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk wasn't wheel-warring. I unblocked Ferrylodge so he could contribute to this discussion. FeloniousMonk blocked him in consequence of this discussion. He wasn't undoing my administrative action; regardless of what you think of the propriety of the block, he was not wheel-warring. MastCell 21:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

FM and Swatjester both added templates, but where is it written that the person issuing the block has to close the discussion here? I don't see anything that says FM should have done that. Odd nature 21:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

My error, I only saw Swat's. Thanks for the correction, ON. I have to say I don't see why FM should be criticised for not closing this, as clearly some contributors feel more discussion and input is needed. That seems to conflict with the concerns that this was a "too rapid response". I'm perplexed by the contradictory assertions. And no, the blocking admin doesn't have to close, nor is it written anywhere that he does. KillerChihuahua 21:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I supported sanctions short of a full community ban, and questioned the speed with which a not-yet-formulated consensus was carried out, and characterized. For that, I have been treated uncivilly, and had my good faith questioned. I have more important wiki work to do, so I will participate in this drumhead court no longer. Dean Wormer 21:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Unblock please

I'd strongly urge FeloniousMonk to unblock Ferrylodge at least until the conclusion of proceedings here, and until stronger consensus for a ban appears, a simple vote count (I know, evil) reveals something around 65% support for a ban at the present time, not really a firm enough consensus to warrant a definitive, final ban. Nick 21:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually its a 4:1 consensus in favor of the ban. Why on earth would should FM unblock him? Odd nature 21:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely with KillerChihuahua's formulation of the problem here. Yes, Ferrylodge is a tendentious editor; yes, interacting with him has driven at least one highly valued contributor from the project, a significant loss for Misplaced Pages; yes, I personally feel that a siteban is a reasonable, if somewhat strong, remedy. But I don't think anyone can dispute that some significant objections have been voiced here, and there's been some support for discussing alternative remedies like 0RR/1RR or topic bans. I think that if we enact a siteban in the face of real, good-faith dissent, then we're undermining the credibility this process in the long run. Far more tendentious editors have been given a last-chance topic ban or revert limitation. I don't think anyone has seriously disputed that Ferrylodge's approach is problematic; why not take the opportunity to discuss our options in dealing with it a little further and try to bring some of the editors who have opposed a siteban into the consensus? If we block him now, then the discussion is going to be viewed as closed, for all intents and purposes. Like Nick, I'd just rather see a little more before we take that step. MastCell 21:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Despite what you may have read in the Washington Post :-P , I have seen Ferrylodge be a helpful contributor at Fred Thompson, and would support a topical ban from abortion/pregnency articles or a revert limit if that is where he is being disruptive. But I've been maligned enough in this "discussion", so I'm taking a break. Mahalo. --Ali'i 21:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

(ec)I strongly feel that eventually it will have to be a site ban, as I just don't see Ferrylodge ever seeing anything problematic about his behavior. I think unblocking him will simply take more time and waste more virtual ink. However, I do not object to unblocking him if anyone feels his lengthly diatribe against those who presented evidence here and supported his block has afforded him insufficient response. Meanwhile, the "ban" section above seems to consist of those supporting the block, and those opposing it as enacted too quickly. I again point to Theodore7's ban, as precedent, that "fast" isn't always the wrong choice, and suggest that merely opposing on the grounds of rapidity is unhelpful. Fast is sometimes better than slow, if it merely serves to prolong the agony. I suggest if anyone wishes to make an argument for another remedy, such as 0RR, 1RR, topic bans, and the like, that a section be created for that purpose. However, as opinions are split, care will have to be taken not to conflate opposition to the ban with support of Ferrylodge's behavior. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 21:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with KC that Ferrylodge will end up with a site ban as he cannot learn, I do not like implementation of such a ban prior to the completion of this discussion, unless there was disruption somewhere else. I agree with Mastcel that it undermines the integrity of this forum, which is part a way to speed up the process of dealing with disruptive editors. --Rocksanddirt 21:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

at the risk of sounding dense... you think he should be site banned, but you object that its been done? I'm sorry, that reads like "we should spend lots of time discussing it, then do it." Rather than "its going to happen anyway, why waste everyone's time?" KillerChihuahua 22:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the rush? 24 more hours isn't going to change consensus for banning him amongst the community he's pissed of. --Rocksanddirt 22:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

If the editor is going to be banned, sit back, relax and wait for consensus to emerge, don't cut the guy off and stop him from mounting a defence, no matter how ridiculous or an attack on others, if he is to avoid being banned, he deserves every change to do so, and if he is going to be banned, allowing things to run to their conclusion isn't hurting anyone. If it takes another few hours, a day or more before everyone is happy to close the discussion and ban the guy, so what. Rushing everything through is just causing more problems than it solves, as we see here. I don't see any reason to block the guy while there is still discussion ongoing about a ban or other measures though. Nick 22:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. However, this has gone on for 9 or 10 months at this point, with repeated problems along the way. Also, this editor has shown a strong propensity to attack those who question him. So I see no particular reason to give this person more rope to hang us with.--Filll 22:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I"m sorry, but why do we have to walk gently around an editor like this one. Who cares how fast this went? He's not at all useful to the project (look at how long this thing has gotten). And frankly, why don't we get rid of people like this and spend equivalent or more energy in supporting individuals who actually work on this project in a productive manner. I don't know you NIck, but why do you even care about a tendentious editor like Ferrylodge? How does he help the project? It's time to move on. OrangeMarlin 22:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we are walking gently, I think we are trying to have a process that will stand up to community scrutiny. I don't care about ferrylodge, I care about the process here. leaving him unbanned to contribute here only is hardly walking gently. If he edits out side of this discussion or in any manner disruptively then it doesn't matter. --Rocksanddirt 22:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Nick, are you seariously saying he didn't have an opportunity to defend himself? Did you read his long-winded non-responses above? He mounted a defense, and it consisted of blaming and re-attacking others. And he'd apparently stopped editing prior to the block. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the claim that he was given the bum rush. Odd nature 22:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

(Outdenting) As I've been the subject of an RfC brought by Ferrylodge, which he discusses in his response above, I think it best not to register an opinion at all in the section below. I agree with Andrew c's point that Ferrylodge's Misplaced Pages fate ought to be decided by uninvolved editors, not by those of us who have interacted or clashed with him. So I'm not here to opine, so much, as to really, really recommend these uninvolved editors to read that RfC/Bishonen and most especially its talkpage. No, I do know that you already have enough to read! In fact the amount of information in this thread is becoming quite forbidding. But that's exactly my point: the RfC talkpage is a kind of easy-to-access concentrate of the thing at issue here, which is Ferrylodge's demeanour and argumentation technique in debate and disagreement. Going straight to that page could save you some time. And if you need a really lightning-quick mini-fix, try going straight to the last section on the RfC talkpage, the discussion of the closing procedure. Bishonen | talk 23:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC).

Proposals

Endorse current ban

• Support ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support Odd nature 22:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support --Pleasantville 22:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support Exactly how many times do I have to vote on this ban?OrangeMarlin 22:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support --Filll 22:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support KillerChihuahua 22:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support -Severa 22:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - EdJohnston 22:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support ornis (t) 22:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Indef topic ban on all pregnancy and abortion related articles, zero tolerance on continuing WP:TE on other articles

• -
• -

Indef topic ban on all pregnancy and abortion and political related articles, zero tolerance on continuing WP:TE on other articles

• -
• -

Ratify indefinite ban of Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Issue referred to Arbitration. MastCell 18:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

From AN/I. After an extensive block log and two very recent, lengthy blocks for edit warring and gaming the 3RR system, User:Giovanni33 has been blocked indefintely by User:Durova. His previous block on 15 August 2007 was reduced by User:El_C.

• Endorse indefinite ban. --DHeyward 05:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• I don't think dispute resolutions have worked in the case of Giovanni33 or would work now. Would be nice if he would change his ways, but after this many blocks and disruption, I doubt it. I have to support the indef block. --Aude (talk) 05:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse indefinite ban. Like I said at the ANI discussion, this is disappointing because Giovanni33 has a fantastic work ethic, but his block log and contributions show that he cannot refrain from edit warring and gaming the system to avoid 3RR. Pablo Talk | Contributions 05:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Unhelpful. There is an ongoing discussion at WP:ANI. Reopening it here (and with a leading request at that) is not helpful. Durova herself (!) is trying to work out a less radical solution. --Stephan Schulz 05:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The community may ban Giovanni33 regardless of Durova's wishes. Pablo Talk | Contributions 05:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Sure it may. That does not mean that it should rush to it, especially not as long as there is a productive ongoing discussion about this topic.--Stephan Schulz 05:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse this guy has caused more than enough trouble. -- Anonymous Dissident 06:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Do not endorse and am suspicious at attempts to reduce this to a vote. AGF and all but as is said above - this is unhelpful and anyone calling for the perm ban of an editor when the "straw that broke the camels back" was him reporting a known pov pusher for 3rr needs to examine their decision criteria. Sophia 06:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You must be confused. It doesn't matter what the "straw the broke the camel's back" is. What matters is Giovanni's lengthy block log and the disruptive nature of his contributions to the encyclopedia. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:26, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Never mind the quality feel the width - great judgment criteria. I suppose it's easier than bothering with the background details. The perm ban of an established editor is a serious matter that should not be decided just by the length of the block log - most of which is over a year old. Sophia 06:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, we should just ignore his block log. Good call. Pablo Talk | Contributions 06:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a whole area of options between "ban" and "ignore". I am not advocating "ignore" but still fail to see why this particular incident has attracted so much attention. Check out WP:RfC and WP:RfAr and you will see there are many ways to skin a cat. Of course you can always shoot the poor thing and be done with it. Sophia 08:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's not jsut one incident. It's the fourth edit warring incident in 2 months involving 4 differnt article and 4 different editors. All involved gaming the system. 3 of which ended in blocks and one of which ended in his 2RR pledge in July. His last block of two weeks was reduced by El_C for all the reasons that are being stated for why he should not receive an indefinite ban. Indeed, El_C is threatening to unilaterally reduce his block again. IT's clear that G33 has not taken his admonishments or his pledges to heart. --DHeyward 14:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Sarcasm will not get you the community ban you seek, Pablo. In fact, it increasingly appears to be a form of intimidation. Please try to be a bit more collegial, if not friendly, to your follow editors. Thanks. El_C 10:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Object to sanctions here while ANI discussion is ongoing. Let the dust settle and see what happens with Durova's offer. R. Baley 06:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Object - Length of block log is as much dependent on how quick admins are to block someone as to their actual actions. There are many users with just as extensive a history of edit warring and POV pushing as Giovanni33... several of them actively campaigning for this ban. That their block logs are not, in some cases, as lengthy as Giovanni33's demonstrates to me why such a criteria is a poor choice. Much (though not all) of the impetus for this ban is an effort by one set of edit warriors to banish their opponent. That isn't something we should ever encourage, and if it succeeds it should be applied equally to long term edit warriors of all stripes with similar histories... whether they have the block log to show for it or not. --CBD 07:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse indefinite ban for Giovanni33, or alternatively a 3 month block followed by a 1-year probation period allowing for 1RR only. Breaking 1RR during probation shall result in an automatic indef-ban. If this alternate suggestion is taken, force the resumption of Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Mao: The Unknown Story 2‎, which may be escalated into WP:RfArb if the mediation fails again. Those requesting for "parity" here should rather join the aforementioned mediation/arbitration on Mao/Jung Chang to pursue their content disputes. No sanctions are necessary for other editors at this point.--Endroit 14:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• I was inclined to support a short-term ban from the whole project, to be followed by a permanent topic ban on all Asia-related articles. But after seeing the evidence of stalking, I have to reluctantly endorse an indefinite ban. Blueboy96 14:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Stalking?????? No one is actually taking that one seriously as it's absurd and an accusation put out by the editor who Gio was in conflict with. Sophia 14:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That was me, providing the diff's at ANI. I don't believe I ever was in a conflict with Giovanni33. Do you have any proof of it, Sophia?--Endroit 14:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. It takes two to edit-war; it seems unfair to indef-ban one side in a war (particularly when it's the opposing side in this case that actually violated 3RR). This seems to be another case of a double standard being imposed by the ruling clique. *Dan T.* 14:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Object. Duplicating an ongoing discussion at ANI here is a bad idea, and this discussion was only started after it become obvious that there was not consensus for an indefinite ban at ANI. On his talk page, after being prompted by Durova, Giovanni (following others before him) has proposed alternate remedies of 1RR probation or a topic ban on Mao related articles (with both remedies to be in effect for himself and the editor he edit warred with). Let's pursue those options for now and keep the discussion in the place which it began. I'd rather not even comment here and lend credence to this thread, but I don't want a few editors who have been in content disputes with Giovanni in the past to do an end-around on the dialogue that is already happening.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 16:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. The behavior of other users should also be looked into, but that doesn't excuse Giovanni33. A fairly lengthy ban (at least 6 months) would be my second choice, though still acceptable. Chaz 17:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Other solutions should be tried before an end-all-be-all indefinite block. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Agree with many here, a contributing editor should not be blocked, especially after showing such an ability to improve in bahavior. If an admin finds themself loosing patience, perhaps they should step back, patience is required to deal with situations. Their proposal, Giovanni33 that is, seems to be the best implementation to avoiding further edit warring over the issue. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni33's offer

Reposted from user talk:

:Thanks for your offer and being amicable. For the good of the project, I propose a 1RR limit for myself and John Smiths as fair. I self imposed a 2 RR for myself, and only went to 3 when I saw what he was pushing. I'll happily go to 1 revert as a limit for a proposed lenght of time as is agreed per consensus (1 year, 6 months?), with the condition that the same applies to the other editor in these edit wars with me, who has been reverting in excess of what I have been doing over several articles (more than myself). Since this ANI is considering both of us (or should be, per the 3RR report), its apropos that both are dealt with in a similar manner with a solution that benefits the project. It would also dispel appearances of being one-side, unfair, etc.Giovanni33 03:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to propose a 2nd solution that I think would be better for WP: a topic ban on Mao related articles--but again for both parties. The edit wars all center around the Jung Chang book and Mao's China, and I'd be happy to accept a topic ban on these articles provided John Smiths included, as well. This would be my first choice, and I think a better solution as it would end the edit wars period, instead of slowing them down (I can see John Smith doing 1 revert a day, and this would not a real solution).Giovanni33 03:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Both of these suggestions include reciprocal sanctions on another editor. I would really need to see evidence in support of such a thing before backing that idea, but I have an alternative proposal: this type of remedy fits within the scope of community enforceable mediation where two editors can come together and agree to binding remedies upon themselves. If John Smith is agreeable, I propose a limited unblock of Giovanni33 for the exclusive purpose of community enforceable mediation, which would last until CEM concludes or for one month: if no agreement is forthcoming by that deadline I'd refer to arbitration (shifting the limited unblock to arbitration). This comes with no automatic limitation on John Smith's editing privileges, although I or any other administrator may take action as appropriate. Durova 17:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed it would be best for all concerned if the two can reach a settlement between themselves. If this fails, actions with respect to Giovanni33 and John Smith should each be considered on their individual merits. Raymond Arritt 17:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Option One proposed by Gio seems more favourable to me. As someone who have seen the work of both editors, I know that they have valuable contributions. Only they need to be more willing to give-and-take when they disagree. But I have a question for this Option One - would it be a 1RR/article/week? And is it limited to those articles they have edit warred over? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The idea of community enforceable mediation floated by Durova sounds excellent to me, and is probably largely in line with the spirit of Giovanni's suggestions which seem to revolve around both parties agreeing to some wrongdoing, agreeing to dial down the level of conflict, and submitting to restrictions on their editing activities. Has User:John Smith's been contacted about this proposal? I think he is blocked now but it seems like it would be useful to bring him into the discussion via his talk page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's and I have traded e-mails and had an online chat. He's preparing a proposal. I'll post here when it's ready. Durova 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This was his pledge 6 weeks ago on a 3RR/edit warring transgression that went unblocked. A few weeks later, he was blocked again for edit warring with a different editor on a different article. That block was reduced by El_C. This weeks edit war was with yet a different editor, a different blocking admin and a different article. If the 2RR pledge didn't mean anything and his blocks keep getting reduced, why is their a belief that anything other that a long period of quiet reflection will produce a change in behaviour? --DHeyward 22:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment — This appears to be an effort by Giovanni33 to shirk responsibility by blaming it all on one user. However, Mongo and others were involved the last time, not John Smith's. I believe the admins from the other recent incidents need to be consulted to determine the appropriate action here. At least a 3-month block on Giovanni33 is in order, for his general disruptions, in addition to the WP:CEM suggested above by Durova.--Endroit 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's offer

This is longer so I'll link to it. Reactions and comments are welcome, and Giovanni33 may respond by talk page posts, e-mail, or chat. Durova 21:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It's basically a rant, devoid of any introspection (in it, John Smith doesn't acknowledge his pov pushing of Changism for years). The proposal, if I could parse it, involves himself having some sort of revert advantage, that he promises not to use to his advantage. As a sign of good faith, he asks that his version in the dispute be retained. Feel free to stop me at any time. El_C 22:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please do stop. I'm seeking an effective community solution here to avoid arbitration, which is where things will go if we can't achieve consensus. If there's something constructive to build upon please focus on that, or if there's nothing of value then please say so without placing additional strain on the discussion. Durova 23:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

If you're unwilling, or unable, to reach parity, which thus far seems to be the case, perhaps arbitration would be the best recourse. El_C 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I certainly am willing and able to reach parity if I see a good case that parity is appropriate. You're welcome to make such a case. Please offer evidence in a dry just-the-facts-ma'am presentation. Durova 23:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I just am not sure you are capable of being evenhanded, seeing that your first action will need to be justified in the result. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

If you need any evidence of my impartiality, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Agapetos angel where I was the sole defender of an editor whose ideology I abhorred. I simply don't accept the paradigm that it takes two to tango: I've seen enough editors where there was a primary antagonist, and it's a very commonplace tactic for a primary antagonist to invoke it takes two to tango in a bid for retributive action when sanctions appeared to be imminent. So I examine each instance separately and so far I'm not impressed by the direction that this conversation has taken: rather than a presentation of evidence for analysis and judgement this approaches challenges to my capacity for analysis and judgement. WP:AGF should weigh here. Please, if you have evidence to present for community discussion then do present it. Durova 01:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of your impressions, I object to you deciding the content end of an edit war that's been going on for years via clumsy action that obviously lacks consensus and is only supported by seemingly well-defined circles. El_C 03:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Reposting: I think Giovanni sees the world too politically and categorises people as being "with him", "against him" or "not involved". He also has trouble accepting that others may have a valid point and trying to find compromise that maybe he doesn't agree with but is a "halfway house" that can move things on. So whilst he was blocked, I would suggest we get a mediator (maybe 2-3) to chat things over with him every so often to see how he was feeling. I think he could do with a sort of "behavioural mentor", someone (or some people) to try to get him to be more flexible and less prone to just want to get what he initially thinks is right. If for some reason they thought he hadn't changed they could recommend he stay blocked, but generally they would be there to help him out.

After the X weeks/months were up, Giovanni would be allowed back. He would be put on 1-revert parole (either per article per week or week) for 6 months/1 year. If he started breaking the terms he would be indef blocked. Also if he was referred again by wikipedians for repeated disruptive behaviour even after the parole was up he might be indef blocked, though that would depend on how people felt at the time.

As for myself, I would re-assure Giovanni I wouldn't game his parole by agreeing not to get involved in articles he has edited and/or still edits which I have not edited. He would draw up a list of articles he is interested in that he thinks apply and we could agree them with someone like Durova. If I started reverting his changes on those articles we had agreed on, I would get a 72-hour ban.

In regards to the points we had been mediating, I would agree not to use my revert "advantage" to change them. In return he would agree to med-arb with three administrators who have not been involved in blocking/unblocking us, editing in our favours/against us, etc. I would suggest Durova (again as a very non-partisan admin) be chair admin, and if we couldn't agree on the other two she would find them herself. As a sign of good faith I would ask that Giovanni not try to change the recent edits I proposed to the lead of the Mao: The Unknown Story article - if he was not happy with them after he returned from his block he could ask they be included in the med-arb.

Some wikipedians sympathetic to Giovanni may think this proposal unfair, but I would point out that if we can't agree to a resolution the matter will go to arbitration, which will be long-winded and probably eventually ban Giovanni or otherwise censor him more severely. There is no reason why we can't get to the position where Giovanni never edit-wars again, but I think a bit of "tough love" is is required here to do that. John Smith's 20:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

First you link to it, now you're "reposting it"? Is this some sort of rhetorical device? It looks like it serves to drown the discussion. El_C 23:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

To be candid, your comment looked like an attempt at poisoning the well. I'm not attempting any sort of rhetoric: I have no dog in this race. I'd just rather achieve a workable consensus if it's possible to do that without referring the matter to WP:RFAR. Durova 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am still talking about parity. I find tou are not being responsive about this limited point. El_C 00:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

My view of parity is that we consider each case equally dispassionately on its own merits. Giovanni33's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. John Smith's case should be considered on its merits, including present behavior in light of prior context. The "if you block one of mine, then we have to block one of theirs" approach uncomfortably resembles tit-for-tat rather than true parity. Raymond Arritt 00:19, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Block-log and political-derived prejudice appears headed to skew any notions of fair review, leading to such distortion. El_C 01:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

My worry is that many seem to not be reading the block log correctly, citing each line as a seperate block, and ignoring the time many of those took place and the long stretch between them. They should also take note of who the last blocking admin was back in 2006, and who seems to be advocating the block now. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni's remedies seem to be first more fair, limiting one user and not the other, is just telling one its ok to war and the other its not. What prevents the one not limited from continuing to drown the other out? I am more in favor of the first then the second, however if the belief is the topic and their views, then 2 should be studied. I agree with others, John seems to just be ranting, not actually making a solid proposal. --SevenOfDiamonds 01:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a worry that John Smith is getting off lightly while Giovanni33 bears the brunt of the punishment. Since this is a CSN notice about Giovanni33, this would be appropriate. JS has a much less impressive block log. I have not seen him reported on ANI or CSN previously as Giovanni33 has. He has not violated other rules such as gaming the system and sockpuppet policies as Giovanni33. In fact, he received one the harshest 3RR penalties from El_C given his block log and he chose to block JS but not Giovanni for edit warring on April 4 (yes they were both involved, it was the same article). It's clear that El_C has a conflict with JS and feels some affinity for Giovanni33 as he has inly blocked JS and only unblocked Giovanni33. Bringing JS into Giovanni33's CSN is more of a red herring. This is about Giovanni33's inability to act civillly within the bounds of consensus and the community adopted policies such as 3RR, Sockpuppetry and Gaming the System and his inability to live up to his previous commitments and promises. --DHeyward 02:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You really should try not to accuse admins of anything unless you are going to stand by them and report it properly. Slinging mud is not appropriate. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I accused anybody of anything here except Giovanni33 who should be blocked indefinitely. I know of no policy that El_C has broken so there is nothing to report. It certainly would be wildly inappropriate for him to use his admin tools to change the blocks of either Giovanni33 or John Smith as he has a history with both of them. --DHeyward 03:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration request opened

This thread can close now. It appears unlikely to generate consensus so I've taken it to arbitration and given limited unblocks for both John Smith's and Giovanni33 for the purpose of participation there. Other editors may wish to revise and expand the lists of involved parties and dispute resolution attempts. Durova 03:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Proposing Community Ban on User:Gold heart

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The community consensus here is clearly to have Gold heart banned. It is highly unlikely that any administrator would be willing to unblock him, as the behavior demonstrated by the user is beyond unacceptable. As such, Gold heart can be considered banned. Acalamari 21:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing a community ban for User:Gold heart, per suggestion of Fred Bauder in "The Troubles" ArbCom case. He was a somewhat good user, who suddenly decided to retire from Misplaced Pages and scrambled his password, but when The Troubles Arbcom case started. he activated an up till then dormant account, User:Thepiper and attempted to contribute to that case (without letting folks know that he was Gold heart). He also created another account, User:Gold Heart (Temp), which violates WP:SOCK and ArbCom Rules. This started a downward spiral which continues to the present time.

Recently, this user has created several sockpuppets to harass User:Alison, both on and off-Misplaced Pages. This harassment included outing of personal, medical data about Alison on Misplaced Pages, and the use of anonymous remailers to harass her off-Misplaced Pages. You can see his on-Misplaced Pages harassment from the contributions of sockpuppets Pronterra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Perolla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Alison has taken the incredibly brave step of stepping forward to show her harrasser for what he is at User_talk:Alison#Public_statement. Now it's time for the rest of us to step forward. I call for a community ban on User:Gold heart and all accounts that they may possess. SirFozzie 23:28, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: In order to consider a community ban, we will need diffs to the different allegations that you are making against User:Gold heart. Without seeing links to the actual evidence to these charges (and not a general link, but specific diffs), I personally will not support any ban.--Alabamaboy 23:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Pronterra Perella , , and trying to explain why he's doing this, using another sock account today, SirFozzie 23:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse witch burning. His trolling using multiple sockpuppets during the ArbCom was a very unwelcome distraction to begin with, and now his sinister behaviour and harassment are becoming totally unacceptable. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to see evidence that these accounts are the same editor. If so, then I'd support. Has there been a checkuser? Durova 23:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The user has confirmed that they were User:Gold heart . When I brought this up with ArbCom member Fred Bauder privately off-wiki (due to the sensitive nature of the issue, he confirmed that they were the same account but it would be hard to block the range, because the IP changes). Fred Bauder then directed me over here in the ArbCom case , and suggested an indefinite community ban would be in order here. SirFozzie 23:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

All right then, I endorse it. Sockpuppetry to confound an arbitration case is a very serious matter, and the accusations against another editor are nontrivial. Durova 00:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Endorse I see no reason not to. Abusing multiple accounts, trolling in an ArbCom case, the positive checkuser request, and the on and off-wiki harassment to an editor in good standing provide no alternative. Arky 02:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse community ban absolutely. I found that comment posted to RfARB (link 42 posted above by Fozzie) declaring his love genuinely disturbing. The sooner this gets chopped off at the knees, the better. There is no reason whatsoever for us to allow a user to use Misplaced Pages to harass and stalk one of our editors. I have reblocked Gold Heart (Temp), Gold heart, Perolla with email disabled (partly to disable email and partly to put the blocks in a third party's name rather than his victim's name). This will have no affect on his ability to email Alison, but at least will prevent him from abusing the email function to harass anyone else. Sarah 04:33, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. What this user has done is unforgivable. Sam Blacketer 13:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strongest possible support The conduct demonstrated is unacceptable in any civilized online community. Would advise contacting his ISP as well, in light of the serious off-wiki abuse. Blueboy96 14:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Alison is probably the only person who the ISP would listen to as a complainant in this case, but if they need any help, I'd support any efforts made by wikipedia to supply them with relevant information. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. Wholly unacceptable behaviour. Worth checking other wikis too. - Kittybrewster (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse community ban, per Sarah. Second chances are for people who do a bit of edit warring or POV pushing, or get a bit disruptive. They are NOT for people who start real life harassment of our contributors. ElinorD (talk) 14:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban. I'm not familiar with the background to this dispute, but the comments by the user (and his sockpuppets) about Alison's medical history certainly do seem unacceptable. Lots of Wikipedians have medical, personal or emotional issues of various kinds in their lives; publicising details like that about someone else in an attempt to discredit them is not acceptable. As such, I endorse the proposed ban, based solely on the comments made towards Alison; I'm not factoring in the behaviour on the arbitration case, since I don't know the issues involved. Walton 14:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong endorse ban. Blatant sockpuppetry, and now harassment of an editor including breach of privacy: there's no wiggle room here. Away with him, and I sincerely hope that he takes time to seek whatever help he needs. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Unquestionably endorse ban. This user's behavior has been absolutely despicable. --krimpet⟲ 17:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban now that links to the evidence were provided. This behavior should not be tolerated.--Alabamaboy 17:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban - completely unacceptable behavior. Cheers, Lights (♣ • ♦) 18:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban - For all the reasons stated above. Serious abuse on numerous fronts. - Crockspot 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• I move to close--is there any objection? I see it snowing outside ... granted, it's been open a day, but I can't see why anyone would ever unblock this guy. Blueboy96 19:34, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban, and second motion to close, per WP:SNOW and the unacceptable behaviour of the subject. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse ban and motion to close. I was the target of Gold Heart's socks at WP:RfAr. Those were ridiculous enough to be little more than a distraction. However, after his account was publically revealed to be a sock, he emailed with with an apology and explained that his actions at ArbCom were more to do with his issues with Alison than myself. That he will go so far to create socks to attack me just because I happened to support Alison's actions is both scary and indicative of the lengths this editor will go. Lets put an end to this now. Rockpocket 19:58, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Let it Snow!

• Pile-on support I know this is closed, but I just wanted to register my support of Alison. She's a great admin and crap like this won't be allowed. Of course it's snowing. . .as well it should be. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow. R. Baley 07:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topics

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to topic ban, ban or block Space Cadet at this time. KillerChihuahua 15:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Space Cadet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been disruptive for about five years now in this field. Notified, he seemed willing to change ( ). Some days on, however, a single-purpose account appeared in a WP:POINT campaign, to whom Space Cadet could not help but express his approval and vowed to help himself after his break (). Now he has notified me that his break was over and violated the Gdansk-vote twice again ( ). I suggest he has long exhausted the community's patience regarding German-Polish-related areas. Sciurinæ 01:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a more accurate description of the problem is: for five years, Space Cadet has held a completely different POV from Sciurinæ. The last time I checked, we don't ban people for that. I don't see any revert warring or incivility in Cadet's recent edits you linked above, so there is no serious disruption to consider.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

You are clearly presenting a straw man argument, because you claim that the reason for banning him would be my different POV when in fact I want him banned from Polish-German related topics given his obvious, recurring and never-ending violations of the Gdansk/Vote. You also seem to present an ad hominem argument, because you play down my presentation by pointing out my different POV. I did not even cite revert warring in the two edits (though actually it is on a slow level), nor did I cite incivility, though incivility, too, is an issue (eg against interfering admins for blocking User:Molobo or this more recently one in which an admin just tried to mediate in some Gdansk-related struggle ). It's about a topical ban and not a block for incivility. Sciurinæ 16:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. I see no evidence of recent disruption in the cited links. In the first of the two "incivility" diffs provided (), it looked like the phrase "what an idiot" was referring self-deprecatingly to himself, not to another user. In the second instance () I agree that he was being uncivil towards Anthony.bradbury (a respected admin), but the incivility wasn't severe enough to merit a block or ban, IMO. Although I understand that this WP:LAME content dispute has been going on a very long time, I don't see any reason to ban this user. I may change my mind if any evidence of actual recent disruption is provided. Walton 18:39, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Space cadet has never been blocked. This is not a place to continue disputes. Take it elsewhere. Banno 21:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually Space Cadet has been blocked six times. The most recent was in April 2006. I'd like to see a compelling argument that this is not an extension of a POV dispute. Durova 00:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe banning Spacer is out of question. I must say that it has been a while since I've seen a useful edit from him (if ever). Most of edits that I have seen was adding a Polish name to an article and nothing else often without a good reason. He occasionally revert warred too but never even close to the amount of grief brought to this project by Piotrus' most important protegé Molobo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) after the latter's last return from a one year block alone. Also, Spacer is good natured, friendly and sometimes admits to past mistakes and even apologizes for them. I would like to see doing some useful activity but not doing anything useful on the project is by itself not a reason for a ban. --Irpen 01:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It took me a second reading to understand the irony. :-) Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

For Durova: The Gdansk vote was the climax of a long-runing POV dispute, to finish it after all was said time and time again. It was intended as a community decision and most voted for its enforcement (including Piotrus), meaning its persistent violation was to be considered an act of vandalism. There was enforcement long ago, most decisively in the cases of Halibut (WP:POINT campaign) and of Molobo ( ). Even so, that was discouraging due to wheel warring by Piotrus ( respectively), so that now after the last attempt of enforcement (wheel warring over Molobo), as far as I'm aware, enforcement through blocking other than 3RR has completely died out. Although Piotrus had certainly been inexperienced as an admin then and you can't bear him any grudge for that now, it is unbelievable that he has managed to make this here look like a content or POV dispute (and "we don't ban people for that" -- Piotrus) rather than someone actively resisting a community's decision. This creeping and never-ending campaign of Space Cadet's five-year-long disruption finally has to be tackled and if that's not the way, then what is? Revert warring against "vandalism"? Or another pointless arbitration case featuring Piotrus? Of all choices, this one seemed to me to be the most rational. Please reconsider it. Sciurinæ 03:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

To Irpen: if you can't recall seeing a useful edit from this person and perhaps never have seen one, then why oppose banning? Each editor's contributions (or lack thereof) stand on their own merits. Congenial people who aren't building an encyclopedia can easily find a niche at MySpace or some other site. Durova 05:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Durova, I am simply a humanist. I don't like harsh measures without a very strong reason. Besides, banning editors for not being useful while tolerating editors who clearly bring more harm than good to the project just does not make much sense. Nationalist extremist POV-pushers roam freely wasting our potentially productive time on dealing with their edits or endless "discussions" about nonsense at the talk pages and in order to get banned they have to make a mistake of also attacking users in especially horrific ways. Or violate 3RR repeatedly (10 times or so and 3RR reports are not even handled these days). Others spend entire days chatting on IRC, hardly make content edits at all (some none at all) but join every possible policy debate with comments that are completely detached from real Misplaced Pages needs (because someone who does not edit cannot understand the encyclopedia's concerns.) We do not ban those, do we? Sad but true. And here is just a guy who occasionally needs to be reverted. Big deal! If we are serious about improving the project through community sanctions, it is only sensible to start with much more grievously users. --Irpen 07:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Then by all means raise those serious cases in separate proposals. At AFD there's a term for that argument, and although I don't mean it disparagingly toward the individual as opposed to the behavior, that class of argument is known as WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. I wish I had a more polite term for it in this context, but it carries no more weight here than it does there. Durova 07:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Durova, I am not only a great humanist but also a sober realist :) Do you really believe any of the editors like I named above are bannable through this board? I mean some names popped at the top of your head when I gave some typical descriptions, right? Yes, you guessed right. And that one too.

Now, do you believe those users we thought of are bannable through this board? Realistically? And the reasons why it is impossible have nothing to do with their not being harmful enough. So, why waste time? I mean, if you insist that my pessimism is unwarranted I can try and initiated a couple of threads but both of us know that this is futile. So, why start from Spacer? This is simply unfair. When he adds Kijow or Krolewiec once in a while, I would revert him and not see him for another 3 months. But some of his talk page remarks are truly funny and none of them are offensive. --Irpen 08:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The activity of the Piotrus-Space Cadet edit-warring tandem was discussed as part of a recent ArbCom case. One of the key disruptors during the infamous Gdanzig dispute several years ago, Space Cadet has evolved into a "little helper" of Piotrus in his never-ending POV disputes with Lithuanians and Germans, whose occasional revert may prove inesteemable for Molobo and whose fraudulent edit summaries are still mildly amusing. His activity is not nearly as disruptive as that of his comrades-in-arms, so I think that a suspension of his editing rights may be premature at this juncture. --Ghirla 10:16, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The ArbCom found no wrongdoings on my part, but Ghirlandajo still goes around various boards and discussion pages repeating accusations discarded by ArbCom. I'd appreciate if the community would put an end to smearing my name by Ghirlandajo.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As someone who doesn't share the opinion that neutrality can miraculously emerge from opposing sides pushing their respective POV, I strongly support the motion to take "official" steps against Space Cadet's Poland-related activities. Look at it this way: Diverting Space Cadet's attention to other topics for some time might actually help him demonstrate to the community that he is not a nationalist one-trick troll, but intends and is able to make useful objective contributions to Misplaced Pages. Personally, I don't suppose he would succeed, but he deserves the benefit of the doubt as much as anyone. --Thorsten1 15:01, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

What is being asked is that we set up an agreement according to which, if Space Cadet edits certain pages, he will be blocked. So here are the important questions:

• Are there any administrators willing to implement such a block?
• If such a block were implemented, are there administrators who would disagree, and unblock?

If no admin is willing to implement the block - I certainly would not on the basis of the info presented here - then we can close this discussion. Banno 22:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support ban of Space Cadet as his long time record speaks for itself - and against him. Recently, Olessi made some suggestions regarding categorization of Germans/German-speakers at German-speaking Wikipedians' notice board. I've responded that the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users, giving seven recent diffs of Space Cadet removing the Category:German natives of East Prussia (No East Prussia before 1772) from persons like Frederick I of Prussia who were born in Königsberg (important Królewiec according to Space Cadet). Apart from biographies, he also "restores POV" to the articles on places like Frauenburg, which is called Frombork only since 1945, but not during the Copernican era . Denying centuries of German history by pushing Polish POV over it is Space Cadet's only agenda. As long as he is around, development of the German-Polish-related topics on Misplaced Pages will stagnate as his behaviour is driving away good faith editors. After five years, it should be him who is made to go elsewhere, e.g. to the Wiki articles covering central oder modern Poland. -- Matthead      O       00:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You can support it all you like. Unless an admin is willing to impliment it, it's dead in the water. Banno 00:48, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I guess "Community sanction noticeboard" means that if the Community agrees on a sanction, and it is violated, and evidence is presented, then one of the admins will enforce it. "Load sharing" seems to work in other admins business, too. Do you really expect that first an admin has to be identified before the pros and cons of a sanction may be discussed? BTW: no violation of the community sanction, no admin needed. It can be that simple. -- Matthead      O       01:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should have a look at the policy. The "community topic ban" idea is fraught. It is not obvious that you have a consensus here, I doubt that any admin would block on the evidence presented. Hence my question - is there an admin willing to block on this evidence? (I hope not, since the evidence presented is years old). If so, then this can proceed. If not, then let's close this discussion. Banno 02:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If the community agrees on a remedy then I am willing to enforce it. So far I'm neutral on the merits of the proposal. Furthermore, any editor can report evidence of a topic ban violation to WP:ANI and get action. The question isn't dearth of administrators willing to act; the question is whether consensus exists for action. I am categorically disregarding attempts to establish linkage between this discussion and other editors. We all know the Eastern European topics are a mess, but no heap ever got sorted by wailing about what a mess it is. One chooses a particular part of the problem and solves it, then moves on to the next part. Durova 02:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. There are many POVed editors in Poland-German area. But after the great Danzig/Gdansk vote, the area is relatively peaceful. As I explained above, to ban one semi-active editor from one side of the dispute would be petty and hardly constructive. I am not surprised to find that POV-pushers from one side would like to see the others banned - but this is not how this project works; we are supposed to reach consensus by discussions and meet mid-way, not try to ban the other side. Lastly: it would be nice if somebody could actually show that Cadet has violated the Gdansk Vote - citing the relevant part of the vote and relevant diff.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, now you are getting ridiculous. Is the "Poland-German area" and the Gdansk vote again extended to the West bank of the Rhine? Next stop, French-Polish border? -- Matthead      O       04:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ekhm, Matthead, why do you give us diffs from non-Space Cadet editor and from 2005, too? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

ROFL, although this underscores my longstanding opinion that community sanction consensus should be established by uninvolved editors rather than by partisans to a dispute. BTW what's Polish for Koblenz? Durova 05:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point: so far all critics of Space Cadet are the users who have disagreed with him in the content dispute. Considering Cadet's inactivity in past months, that doesn't seem fair.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I came across with Space Cadet contributions back in 2006 in regards of his possible sock puppetry case involving User:Tirid Tirid . That draw my additional attention was his provocative edit summaries as further events shows such practice is carried on till recent . I made impression that attempts to discuss issues with this contributor is hard as he tries to derail them with flaming or irrelevancies . However at that time I did not regard his contributions as extremely disruptive, but Sciurinæ presentation of overall picture of his offensives made me evaluate his behavior more strictly. Regular attempts to go against consensus can be seen as disruptive and neglect towards WP:POINT, which disregard I criticize in other cases too, is especially frustrating. However I do knot know if a ban is a solution here, in other hand I would voice support for additional supervision of Cadet’s future conducts by neutral administrator. M.K. 13:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. Space Cadet is relentless in long term dealing with historical revisionism and equivocation, thus providing a much needed balance to other POV warriors who hold views opposing to his. Interestingly enough, Space Cadet gets occasional support from the German editors as well, not only from the Polish ones. Please take a look at this series of quick reverts. Matthead, Space Cadet, Matthead, and finally, Rex Germanus,. --Poeticbent talk 15:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As my name just popped up, I thought I'd join the discussion. First of all, despite what's implied above, I'm not a German editor, though I understand that my user:name might act as a false friend. Talking about 'false friends', I would like to warn everyone (especially the admins and persons unfamiliar with him) do not trust the person behind the 'EU' pic. ("     O      ") I can assure all of you (and a simple look at his contributions will say more than what I'm about to write) that the thing on this persons mind is not the EU, but to infect wikipedia with Pro-German and Anti-Polish nationalistic POV. So naturally he's against a Polish user like Spacecadet, and will try to do everything to get him banned (as proven by his numerous reactions above). I'll say this. Yes, Spacecadet is pro-polish, and yes, a little less Polish POV wouldn't hurt, but given that persons, like Matthead, are currently active on Poland-related articles ... we need all the spacecadets in this world just to compensate.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Naturally I STRONGLY OPPOSE the proposed bann.Rex 16:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

this sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" or "POINT counter-POINT / troll counter-troll" arithmetics is unhelpful, and of course very unwikilike. --dab (𒁳) 17:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah I see, and your 'the enemy of my friend is my enemy' is somehow morally superior? Please. It's fine with me that you don't like me Dbachman, absolutely fine, but keep it to yourself, and don't support 'users' like matthead to prove the proven.Rex 17:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I cannot conceive of any way to read my above comment as ad hominem, or supportive of Matthead. --dab (𒁳) 17:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Then I guess I'm not as limited as you are.Rex 20:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• SpaceCadet's pov is irrelevant, the question is, does he make an arguable effort to establish compromise. I see nothing blatant enough to warrant a topic ban. These slow Crossen/Krosno type toponym-wars are annoying, but they occur spontaneously from driveby IPs anyway, SpaceCadet doesn't need his account for that. If we can show that a significant portion of SpaceCadet's efforts on Misplaced Pages go into such toponym-wars, we should impose a toponym revert ban, or 1RR parole, not a topic-ban. Such a specialized ban could help him contentrating on adding content or building consensus instead of obsessing over placenames. --dab (𒁳) 17:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Oppose ban the offense is way too minor for such a heavy action. German vs other language names (not only Polish, e.g. I know that the Dutch and Italians also have these issues with German editors) is a highly politicised issue. I am afraid nothing but banning all German and all Polish editors and IP's from these articles will help. Many good editors seem to get carried away, and I don't see SpaceDadet being other than the others. Hence no reason to ban him (alone) for this. Arnoutf 17:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Wissen Sie, daß diese Lösung nicht genug ist? Durova 04:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I like to notify 'Durova' that this is the Anglophone wikipedia. Say it in a way understandable to all or refrain from saying it. Show some respect.Rex 16:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

No offense intended. Arnoutf's post appeared humorous and I responded in kind. He had suggested a topic ban for all German and Polish editors, so I (an American) answered in German that his solution might not be sufficient. Durova 04:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

When I proposed this, I thought that this board had the main or only focus on long-term disruption rather than a recent and more urgent problem, and that bans can be appealed at the Arbitration Committee if a promising change of direction becomes obvious. Therefore I picked this board because I believed that this naming disruption was destined for eternity. I still believe in this eternity (yesterday, as ever ), though I agree with Banno that this here is going nowhere and apologize for the time this has all cost you. If there will be no end in sight and especially should it erupt in a more extreme way, I should like to take this to the Arbitration Committee, where also Dbachmann's suggestion could be considered and which should do justice to the concerns of it being a content dispute and Space Cadet in relative terms. I think it can be closed now. Sciurinæ 18:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Am I supposed to say something now? Well, I'm glad it's over, that's for sure. I wrote a beautiful response, just didn't enclose it early enough before the whole thing ended. I guess I'll save it for later, just in case. I will definitely try to learn from this experience. Happy editing, everyone! Space Cadet 20:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

• Move to close discussion. There is clearly no consensus for banning this editor. I don't think CSN is the correct forum for this dispute. Walton 15:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Seconded. Durova 04:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Catalonia closed

The above arbitration case has closed. Maurice27 (talk · contribs) is banned for 30 days, and the parties to the underlying content disputes are encouraged to continue with the normal consensus-building process to produce high-quality articles. For the Arbitration Committee, Picaroon (t) 02:14, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposing Community Ban on User:Ferrylodge

Ferrylodge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Perhaps some of you recall Ferrylodge, who has been waging a low-level edit war via attrition on Abortion and related pages since December 2006. His technique has been successful enough to drive at least one contributor (one of our better and more productive ones) from the project altogether. He has now turned his attention to harassing, attacking, and maligning me - using the same just-under-the-radar techniques - while continuing his tendentious editing. I have been ignoring this, but it has reached a point where I am now asking for community involvement.

His approach is that of a 'victim bully,' using claims of having been wronged to attempt to gain leverage over others. He has twisted my attempt to support consensus into me being an "edit warrior", my attempts to enforce policy and guidelines into "harassment" and so on. Examples, all taken from today: In the "edit war", he was blocked by MastCell for 3RR on Stillbirth, for insertion of the word "womb". My count (and I may have missed some) is six editors supporting "uterus" over "womb" as a more accurate and appropriate term, and one or two "no preference" editors, and one, Ferrylodge, edit warring to use the word "womb" - the debate has been spread over multiple articles. This is indeed a content dispute, I am well aware of that. I am not here for suggestions or help on the content dispute. I am here because Ferrylodge is maintaining his position that he alone is correct, that he alone is NPOV, that editors who disagree with him are disruptive edit warring POV pushers. No one supports his preferred phrasing and since his block, no one has reverted to his version or inserted the word. He added a POV tag to Abortion because his edit did not have consensus nor even support. This is dishearteningly similar to Sam Spade - in specific, that he "wages POV war designed to wear down opposition, even where he is in a minority of one, by sheer unreasonable persistence in the face of consensus", and he maligns those opposing him to make it appear that it is a personal matter on their part, rather than a policy matter on his. He even "strongly recommended" (on Talk:Pregnancy) that an opposing editor on the Stillbirth article be blocked for disruption, because of course it could not be a simple case of Ferrylodge editing against consensus - it must be that the other editor is disruptive!

He consistently cherry-picks my words to twist them into false meaning - for example, when I referred to a word as "vulgar" and to clarify I posted the definition link to the meaning of vulgar I was using (commonly used language), he removed it with the edit summary " Please do not post at my talk page, KC." - then proceeded to post on his talk page that "she said that I was trying to insert a "vulgar" word into the article. It astounds me that an admin can get away with such incivility, and I find it very difficult to respond in a constructive way to her personal attacks" - which is typical of his tactics, for I must either ignore his misrepresentation of my statement, or ignore his request to not post on his talk page - which surely he learned in his block for harassment would be harassment, as that is precisely what he was last blocked for. In short, he's using the "lessons learned" not to be a better Wikipedian, but to game the system so that he is "innocent" and I am "doing wrong." I am not the only editor he uses these tactics against, if similar evidence for these actions against other users is desired I can dig though his history and place them here.

I doubt that an Rfc would be of any help, because in the few previous instances I have seen of community input, Ferrylodge showed himself resistant to the concept that he could possibly have erred at all. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive252#Harassment Charge By Bishonen Against Ferrylodge, followed by Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Bishonen 2, followed by Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive259#Disruptive editing at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for comment by Ferrylodge - all of which stemmed from one 24-hour block, and all but the last were Ferrylodge stridently defending himself and accusing all and sundry. The last was a suggestion that he'd become disruptive enough on the Rfc talk page (post-closing) to be blocked. I argued against blocking for disruption, because the minute that was posted, he ceased the disruption. My mistake. I note a similar pattern of behavior every time attention is focused on Ferrylodge - he fades quietly into the background for a brief spell, then returns renewed to the attack. This has gone on long enough. KillerChihuahua 23:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• Hmmm, blocked once for harrassment already and still at it. Doesn't seem amendable to any view other than his own or willing to let matters drop, and too willing to carry a grudge. I doubt other forms of WP:DR will yield other outcomes. A ban seems warranted, and I'd support one. Odd nature 23:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support per all the evidence presented by KillerChihuahua, and the fact that he has been warned dozens of times to stop harassing KC, and he still continues with no attempt to be civil. Need I note that he was recently featured in the Washington Post for edit warring on the Fred Thompson article? ⇒ SWATJester 23:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Also would support a ban on Ferrylodge, or at minimum a topic ban of all pregnancy-related articles and all politics related articles. Incidentally, the article that Swatjester refers to can be found here. JoshuaZ 00:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support for ban However, per KC's comments and my own personal observations including this response, he needs to go. Moreover, this offensive RfC just begs for removal of this person from the project. OrangeMarlin 00:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• I admit that I am the contributor who has stopped editing Misplaced Pages due to having to deal with Ferrylodge's tendentious editing. I first encountered him in December 2006, when he came to Abortion,, which ended up leading to his first block for 3RR. I was accused of "request that be blocked," although I'd only reminded him to watch out for 3RR in an edit summary, and the blocking admin confirmed that he had acted indepedently. I tried to put this behind, and to focus on content, not the contributor, during the many disagreements that arose between Ferrylodge, myself, and other editors on abortion and pregnancy-related articles in the following months. It was difficult, though, because I sometimes got the impression that Ferrylodge was trying to make things personal, such as when he apparently went out of his way to insert himself into a minor dispute which arose between myself and an anonymous editor on Vaccine controversy, although the dispute did not involve Ferrylodge, and Ferrylodge had never edited the article in question. I am surprised to find that he is still making disruptive edits on the same constellation of articles — Abortion, Pregnancy, Stillbirth — after almost nine months. I think this is a very long time to learn the ropes on Misplaced Pages; Ferrylodge has had ample time to learn how to work cooperatively with other editors. When I felt that my personal frustation was beginning to compromise my ability to contribute to this community, I left, but Ferrylodge continues to edit despite the chip on his shoulder, and refuses to let bygones be bygones with regard to users like KillerChihuahua. I don't think it's fair to editors who have dedicated themselves to building this encyclopedia to have to sort out Ferrylodge's disruptive editing and confrontational behavior any longer than they already have. -Severa 01:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support motion. I just thought I would clarify in case this was unclear from the statement above. -Severa 02:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Please note that I have unblocked Ferrylodge so that he can participate and respond here. I had blocked him earlier today for violating 3RR; he requested an unblock to respond here, and I felt that was only fair. MastCell 03:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree, but only for commenting here. Any other editing or disruption and it's right back to blocksville. FeloniousMonk 03:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support block. He's a chronic troublemaker, unlikely to change. FeloniousMonk 03:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Also supporting. KillerChihuahua makes a strong case. As a second choice, would support a topic ban on reproduction and political articles. Durova 04:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose ban

Firstly, perhaps I should say that I personally am strongly inclined to side with KC on the issues in question and to oppose Ferrylodge's POV. But while Ferrylodge is clearly an obstinate editor, I don't believe the evidence presented by KillerChihuahua here is enough to warrant a ban. Nor do I see any evidence, that some have alluded to, of "harassment".

One inadvertent breach of 3RR in a year hardly constitutes grounds for a permaban, and I see little evidence of KC's assertion that Ferrylodge routinely defies consensus. For example, recent discussion at Talk:Abortion indicates that Ferrylodge has as much support for his views as opposition.

Ferrylodge seems prepared to discuss his concerns at length on talk pages, and I think if he were to make a commitment to agree to abide by consensus, that ought to be sufficient at this stage. If not, then I think this is a problem that would be best handled by an RFC, I don't see that it's severe enough at present to warrant intervention here. Gatoclass 07:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: This has nothing to do with POV - there are always editors of all POVs on the articles in question, and generally, we all work well together, or at least, well enough. This is an issue of low-level, constant warring, both on the articles, and against any editor FL perceives as "in his way". Like Sam Spade, the individual instances are annoying and bothersome, but not enough to bother doing much about - the volume is such that I haven't even bothered responding to most of his misrepresentations of my statements and views. But the sheer volume of it makes it impossible to ignore. If it were just that he accused me of harassment, I'd ignore. If it were just that he twisted everything I said into something else, I'd probably keep it between us. But he's driven off one editor completely, he is working on Tvoz, as seen by her lengthly evidence - and that from only 10 days. The three here are not the only ones. I posted instances from only one day, and could easily write a full page correcting his false representations and misleading statements from his response, below - and this is one reason he's a problem. He "responds" by a series of false or misleading statements about what "KC asserts" - all of which instances are utterly false or grossly inaccurate or misleading. His "willingness to discuss at length" bears this same flavor. Its not willingness to discuss, its wearing out the opposition in bullheaded obstinacy and unsupported accusations and misleading representations of the other party. What purpose would it serve if I were to spend the full page necessary to correct his false allegations against me in his response, below? We'd get the same kind of thing as we saw on ANI, where all but one editor told him the same exact thing, and he did not change his view or even concede that others might have any validity. He actually escalated it, having gotten no joy on ANI, to an Rfc. Read the ANI thread, read the Rfc, and I don't see how anyone can think an Rfc might have a positive effect. Actually, just read his response, which has nothing to do with him addressing any problems in his behavior, and everything to do with making it personal by attacking me, Bishonen, and Severa. Because, as usual, FL cannot possibly have erred at all - its everyone else who is in the wrong. KillerChihuahua 10:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Like Sam Spade...the sheer volume of it makes it impossible to ignore - KC

That may be the case, but perhaps I should remind you that Sam Spade was never permabanned from Wiki. Rather, he was placed on indefinite probation - after which he chose to cease editing of his own accord.

My concern is that CSN is being used to simply dispose of editors who hold unpopular positions. IMO, Wiki needs the editors who hold unpopular views, because they help to keep the majority honest. Maybe it's the case that Ferrylodge is just a disruptive troll, I don't know - but the case you have presented here is rather long on accusations and short on substance. Permabanning is a radical step, and IMO it should only be used in the worst cases, and backed up by the strongest possible evidence - everything else should go through normal arbitration processes. And while Ferrylodge plainly has made few friends on Misplaced Pages, I've yet to see much evidence to suggest that he has in recent times been anything more than a minor nuisance for editors who don't like his views or his obstinate approach. Gatoclass 17:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you might examine that statement. Are you saying that I, and Severa, and Tvoz, and Pleasantville, are "using" CSN to "dump" someone we don't agree with? That's a fairly strong insinuation that someone is gaming the system, and as the one who started this process, I can only take it that your "concern" is that it is I who am most likely to be guilty of "using CSN". I take exception to your hint that this might be a method to remove an editor I disagree with. KillerChihuahua 17:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with KC here. Tendentiousness is actually quite damaging to a project which functions on consensus, and in which one determined, obstinate editor can stall an article or discussion indefinitely. It's actually a far worse problem than vandalism (yet we keep hearing the arguments on this board that "well, he may be a tendentious POV-pusher, but at least he's not a vandal!") Lots of people hold "unpopular" opinions, but advancing those opinions in a disruptive or tendentious manner is the issue. MastCell 18:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, sorry, that was intended as a criticism of the process, not of the person or persons making use of it. I just happen to think that the process appears to lack adequate safeguards for the protection of users who take unpopular positions, that's all. You are of course perfectly entitled to bring up another editor's behaviour at this page, and even to call for their permanent banning if you feel so inclined. It's just that I am concerned that users may not always get the kind of process here that I think is warranted by the severe penalties that can be handed down. Gatoclass 18:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support - I have had numerous dealings with Ferrylodge (including, but not limited to, the Freddie/Fred dispute on Talk: Fred Thompson referred to in the Sept 17 Washington Post article) and several times in the last 10 days he misrepresented my edits or comments. I called him on it each time, and he has yet to retract or apologize for any of them. None of them are grievous, or the end of the world, but it is the pattern that I am raising here:

-On September 9, here, he erroneously claims that I had previously "urged" that the name be rendered in the way that he preferred and claimed that all he was doing was advocating the same thing I had advocated (which I had not); when I pointed out here that he misrepresented my edit, and that I had not even addressed the rendering of the name in that edit - just provided citations for it - he neither retracted his comment nor apologized for it as an error.

-On September 10 he went to WP:MOSBIO and tried to modify the relevant section to support his position on Fred/Freddie, but neglected to say why he was so interested in that section, claiming to only be looking at John Edwards' name; in the middle of the argument he claimed here that "Tvoz suggested I visited here, and I have taken up her suggestion", including this diff of mine which clearly indicates that in fact I asked him if he was planning to go to John Edwards' page to advocate changing his name rendering to match - if indeed his concern was that saying that Thompson was named Freddie would make him look silly, then surely the same would apply to Johnny Reid "John" Edwards. I clearly was not suggesting that he try to reword MOS policy to conform to his position. (My position was consistently that Edwards and Thompson's names should be handled in the same way as they are virtually identical situations.) When I pointed out that he was again misrepresenting my comments, he ignores the comment and does not apologize or rescind it, but goes on to ask me to AGF - he's the injured party. This misrepresentation is important because I think changing policy or guideline wording should not be done to bolster one's position in a content dispute - especially in a stealth manner - and his prominent and incorrect claim that he was doing so at my suggestion is putting words in my mouth that I never said - this is unacceptable, and I've yet to receive an apology.

-The third instance of his misrepresentation of my edits in the last 10 days came on Sept 15, in regards to a sourced comment by George Will in the Washington Post where he compares the launch of the Thompson campaign to the launch of New Coke. Ferrylodge claims "The article has again been edited (by Tvoz) to reinsert this material" and goes on to say that editors should "work by consensus, and not insist on inserting material into the article when it has been removed and rejected by multiple other editors", citing SBowers3 as one of the "multiple editors". First, I only made that edit once, not "again", and second, SBowers3 made his comments opposing the Will quote after I reinstated it, and indeed SBowers3 did not remove the George Will material at all, because he, unlike Ferrylodge, correctly recognized that there was an ongoing discussion and did not choose to edit war, just to discuss. Ferrylodge doesn't do that - he'll discuss, but only if his preferred wording is in place in an article, and he'll revert to his wording repeatedly, even when several editors are changing it. At the time I reinstated the material there were three editors including me who spoke up for including the material, and only two, Ferrylodge and Rosspz, who opposed it. I pointed out to Ferrylodge that he had misrepresented me for the third time, asked him to correct his comment on both counts. No apology for misrepresenting me was given, and although he edited his comment here, he did it in a way that didn't really address my objection.

-The fourth problem occurred on Sept 19, when Ferrylodge, by innuendo, falsely accused me of wikistalking because I commented in support of another editor's point that disagreed with his; I objected to the accusation, and he disingenuously said that some editors don't know what wikistalking is, and that he wasn't making accusations. Meanwhile I brought the conversation to his talk page and asked him to point out where I was harassing him or disrupting anything - which as another editor also pointed out is the key point in identifying wikistalking. He has had no reply, as I have done no such thing, yet he again did not apologize or rescind his accusation, only implied that I was accusing him of harassment which I was not.

Although on their own, individually, these instances are not particularly grievous (except perhaps the MOSBIO manipulation), taken together I think this reveals a pattern that is very disturbing, and I am only speaking here of the recent instances where I noticed his misrepresentations and unwillingness to admit error and apologize. I also have observed that often Ferrylodge's edits express his POV, rather than neutrally approaching the subject of reproduction on the one hand and political candidates on the other, and he tends to use bully tactics, editing in a tendentious manner, making disingenuous arguments. For all of these reasons, and based on comments of the editors above, I think that a ban is in order. Short of that I would concur with Durova in support of at least a partial ban on editing all reproduction and political articles. Tvoz |talk 09:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Regarding the MOSBIO issue, you have misrepresented the facts. As you can see in the history, Ferrylodge made only three edits, each time reverting Threeafterthree's attempt to manipulate the MOS to support their position on Fred/Freddie. The text after his final edit is identical to what it was before Threeafterthree messed with it. That's the exact opposite of your claim that he "tried to modify the relevant section to support his position". Now I'm not sure what he was thinking when he said that you had referred him there – maybe he confused you with Threeafterthree, since your names both start with T? – but your recounting of events is at least as flawed. (And to pick a truly minuscule nit, Ferrylodge's edits were on 9-Sep, not 10-Sep as you wrote - I point this out merely to demonstrate that memories aren't 100% perfect.) -- Zsero 18:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear: I was talking about his proposal on Misplaced Pages talk:MOSBIO of September 10, not his edits of Threeafterthree on September 9. See the diff I posted last night. He proposed a MOSBIO change here and the objection I raised above was not about the substance of his proposal, but about his misrepresentation of my role in it. I have not misrepresented the facts, Zsero. Tvoz |talk 20:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment about edit warring on Fred Thompson regarding Fred/Freddie. Regardless of what one can conclude from reading the Washpo article, and contrary to what is asserted below, Ferrylodge, with 7 reverts in one day on this one point, accused me - with only 2 - of edit warring. I'll leave it to others to reach conclusions, except to say that "one inadvertent breach of 3RR" is not quite the situation - it's just the only time he was called on it recently:

These are diffs of relevant edits by Ferrylodge on September 9, all but one of which are haggling about word order regarding Fred/Freddie, the other one was removing Freddie altogether:

1st revert: 05:52, 9 September 2007

2nd revert: 06:05, 9 September 2007

3rd revert: 06:20, 9 September 2007

4th revert: 06:33, 9 September 2007 (this one completely removed "Freddie" despite the reliable sources that accompanied the name)

5th revert: 16:09, 9 September 2007

6th revert: 17:41, 9 September 2007

7th revert: 17:50, 9 September 2007

These are my relevant diffs on September 9:

1st revert: 9:21 9 September 2007 (putting "Freddie" and sources back in)

2nd revert: 18:08, 9 September 2007

Tvoz |talk 09:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support I have had only limited and very recent interaction with Ferrylodge, but overall his tone was hostile and I asked repeatedly that he adopt a more civil tone, with no particular effect. Also disturbing was his tendency to preemptive accusation: accusing TVoz of wikistalking and then (on another page) clarifying that she hadn't wikistalked him yet but that he (apparently) anticipated that she would; preemptively accusing me of making unsourced modifications to an article, when I had not yet made the modifications, etc. He gave no explanation for his position that "motherhood" begins at conception and not, as it is usually defined, at the birth of one's child, but defended it simply with hostility.

Checking into his history, I find that he is a Men's Rights activist who's focus is the abortion issue (see the bottom of this page). In keeping with that, his Misplaced Pages edits focus strongly on abortion and related subjects: 511 edits to Roe v. Wade, 297 edits to Fetus, and many edits to Abortion in the United States, Intact dilation and extraction, Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, etc. This focus and his abrasive manner has lead to his being blocked twice, and seems to underly his insistance that his description of gestation be featured in the lede of the article Mother.

In summary, he has a strong point of view and seems to be using intimidation tactics to defend it. --Pleasantville 14:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Ok, now that's interesting. I'm not sure if this is germane or not, but I just noticed that all four of the editors who have posted evidence of having been seriously harassed by Ferrylodge, and the one administrator whose block he has protested for months, are female. And clearly self-identify as female. He has maligned Bishonen endlessly since she blocked him; he has never offered a peep about his other two blocks, and even apologized for breaking 3RR. KillerChihuahua 15:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  Ah, so now I'm a misogynist? If Pleasantville is female, I had no idea of that until just now. What I do know about Pleasantville is that she is a very unkind editor. I refer any interested readers to this discussion which is the only discussion I ever had with Pleasantville. KC has edited many abortion-related articles, and that mere fact does not imply anything about her POV; likewise, I fail to see how some DMOZ editor's POV can be deduced from a category that he or she edits. But apparently any shred of alleged information is fair game here.Ferrylodge 16:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  I'm missing where "Ferrylodge, please maintain a civil tone" is unkind, although your accusations she was "condescending, psychoanalyzing, and pretending that tone is not civil" in response to that gentle request seems a bit confrontational. KillerChihuahua 16:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  For clarification: My initials are also KC as in Kathryn Cramer; I presume for the purposes of this discussion,"KC" refers to KillerChihuahua. --Pleasantville 16:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  Yes, sorry about that. If anyone shortens your name, it will probably be "PV" for Pleasantville, which I hope will not be unduly confusing for everyone. KillerChihuahua 16:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support - Obvious case of WP:TE and of exhausting the community's patience. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I would also consider a topic ban on Abortion-related and other articles in which these behaviors have been observed, and a strong caution issued so that repeating that behavior in other articles will result in a full ban. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The behavior is troubling, but it does not seem to rise to the level of an outright community ban. I would support a topic ban and some sort of behavioral probation. Maybe mentoring is also appropriate. Dean Wormer 16:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to opine that I oppose this proposed ban. And rather strongly at that. I haven't had that much interaction with Ferrylodge, but it seems to me that Misplaced Pages would be better off if we were discussing something better than banning a contributor who, contrary to some people's opinions, does actually improve the encyclopedia. I can't comment on the uterus/womb dispute, but in a lot of cases, it does look like he is being railroaded because of his point of view. There is a content dispute that he is a part of. But it takes two (or more) to edit war. I've seen Ferrylodge be a helpful contributor on the Fred Thompson article, and agree with some of what he says below. I didn't follow Bishonen's 2nd RfC, but at first glance it does seem like people were just laughing at Ferrylodge. I don't know the full details, but community bans are not for useful contributors. If he was revert warring, block him accordingly. No need to deprive the project of a helpful contributor forever. He's not a vandal, he's not unhelpful, he participates in discussion (although sometimes not as well as we'd all like), and he's not creating a big enough disruption that it is shutting the encyclopedia down. He may deserve to be blocked, but he doesn't deserve this. Mahalo. --Ali'i 16:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment How about instead of an outright ban or a topic ban, a restriction to one revert per week (that is per 168 hours) per article? Or something like that, anyway. Perhaps that's too strict, perhaps that's not strict enough. Perhaps 2RR per week with a maximum of 3RR per month. This would seem likely to take care of many of the concerns raised above. --Yamla 16:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • That might be a workable solution. I think that the major problem here is indeed tendentiousness; Ferrylodge has often persisted in beating a dead horse when he's failed to convince anyone else of his argument. Restricting him from edit-warring (e.g. with 0RR or 1RR) would allow him to continue to contribute, but he would need to actually build consensus to see his proposed edits enacted. I do think that continuing the status quo is a bad idea, as there's clearly a problem here; I also wonder whether a full siteban without an intermediate step is overkill, though I'm not categorically opposed. MastCell 17:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
    • That sounds more reasonable to me. I think an approach along these lines would probably be more appropriate at this stage. Gatoclass 17:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• • • (after ec) Which would be acceptable were it only his DE; however, its also the harassment and accusations he bogs people down with which is a massive problem. Did you not see his accusation that Pleasantville is "not nice" and when one looks, oh hey, she asked him very nicely and politely and delicately to be civil - which resulted in a response of him making further and FAR more hostile accusations. I don't know how anyone can see his history and the linked information and somehow conclude this has anything to do with his POV. No one cares what his POV is, so far as I know - I certainly don't, its irrelevant - its his nasty insinuations, false accusations, personalizing of any type of disputes, and edit warring as a minority of one which is the problem. He was blocked for 3RR, and his disingenuous argument below is that "there was only one edit on talk:stillbirth - conveniently ignoring the thirty or so on the previous articles where he was waging that little war before taking it to other articles. This is precisely the situation with his RCOG edit warring: everyone but he stated clearly there was zero reason to characterize RCOG as "pro-choice" - on talk:abortion. When he took the term off to the RCOG article that very same day, he stridently protested that there had been no discussion, because it hadn't been discussed on the RCOG talk page. Now, this is beyond nonsensical. If they aren't pro-choice, and there are no sources to say they are pro-choice, it really doesn't matter where that statement is made, its unsourced. Its not the revert warring. Its the approach and the treatment of others. I see some people are actually swallowing his story that there is some kind of dispute between the two of us. If the community wishes to give a topic ban, I selfishly would be happy enough, as if he's off the pregnancy and abortion articles I won't have to deal with him any more, and hopefully we won't lose Pleasantville as we lost Severa. However, from what I see here, Swatjester and Tvoz among others might object to continuing to deal with him on political articles. I have no idea about the legal articles, I don't edit or watch them. But if there is to be any kind of helpful resolution, it must address his behavior towards others. I cannot spend the hours of time it would take to refute and correct every spurious charge he makes against me, and it is wearing to the spirit to have to contend with that kind of character assassination day in day out. its why Severa left. Its why the other people who have been treated this way are here. Its not something "between me and FL" it is something about how FL treats others. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 17:37, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. All I know about is what happened at the Fred Thompson, and it's been completely misrepresented here. Ferrylodge was simply maintaining the status quo while a contention proposed change was being discussed. That's what's meant to happen, isn't it? If you want to make a change to an article, and it's strongly opposed, you're meant to discuss it on the Talk page and see whether a consensus develops for or against it. You do not keep re-inserting your change while the discussion is going on. The status quo should be maintained, and that's exactly what Ferrylodge was doing. Any blame for edit-warring belongs squarely on the shoulders of those who insisted on making their change without first achieving consensus for it.

As for the 3RR that got him blocked, which is supposedly the trigger for this discussion, I disagree with Yamla's claim that the four reverts were all essentially the same because they all "serve to reintroduce "womb" each time in any case". At first he seems to have tried to revert the unilateral attempt to change "womb" to uterus, as was his right; when that encountered opposition, he seems to have tried for a compromise that would include both words. That's a substantive difference, and should not have been counted as a continuation of the same revert. He should never have been blocked in the first place, and this discussion should not have been initiated.

-- Zsero 19:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Say what you will about the community ban, but you're wrong about the 3RR block. Four edits in the space of a few hours which undo another editor's work, in full or in part, violate not only the spirit but the letter of 3RR. You may want to re-read WP:3RR, because this one was open-and-shut. MastCell 20:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have interacted with Ferrylodge since roughly January of this year. Things got so intense that I had to take a wikibreak, and consciously avoided FL for a while. I think a good example of what many people find objectionable is this: Talk:Abortion#New paragraph and technical language. Reasonable objections to the proposal are ignored, and the replies are short, smug, and throwing back a strawman caricature of what the previous person had said. If this isn't patronizing, or an attempt to bait, then I don't know what is. So after 4 different editors objected the the proposal, FL makes a threat to " a POV tag on this article", which he later fulfills (and decided to make the same general arguments from 4 days before while attacking myself and KC). It is just frustrating to try to work with someone who is combative and defensive. While we can't make people be nice to one another, it sure is civil to have humility and sympathy with those you disagree with.

One of the issues is, the negative conduct only comes out during content disputes. From having interacted with FL, and reading all these others who have interacted with him on other articles, it seems clear that this is more than just a handful of people trying to get a user who they politically disagree with banned. It's about if you say something critical about FL, you are bound to get something worse and more hurtful thrown back at you (i.e. Pleasantville saying Please try to adopt a more civil tone. You seem to be extremely anxious about this and FL responding Please stop condescending, psychoanalyzing, and pretending that my tone is not civil. Thank you in advance for your cooperation in that regard. ), it's about an editor who behaves childishly when he doesn't get his way, and editor who leaves editors hurt after content disputes, and has no regrets or apologies.

So what will a topic ban do? Will it prevent him from getting in content disputes? Will it make him realize that his editing has hurt a lot of editors? That reasonably, he should feel guilt or remorse and apologize, even though that seems to go against his very nature. Clearly a topic ban will not solve these underlying issues. It will just help the editors with whom he spars feel more comfortable in the topics they regularly edit, knowing that they don't have a difficult editor to deal with anymore. Limiting the number of reverts wouldn't help because the main issue is how he handles himself on talk pages during disputes, not his excessive breaking of revert rules.

Now, I do not believe that those of us who have interacted with FL should be the ones to decide his editing fate on wikipedia. And because of that, I will not vote one way or another (at least not yet) in regards to a block or topic ban or whatever. It does seem a little suspicious that editors who have disagreed with FL in the past are now here in troves saying he be permibanned, while editors who have sided with him are saying he shouldn't (with a few uninvolved parties on both sides). I believe the ban was given out too early, and I believe we should wait for more uninvolved parties to examine this.

For those uninvolved parties, I'd say look at FL's recent edit history at Talk:Pregnancy, Talk:Abortion, Talk:Mother. There is a pattern of moving debates from one article to the next, even if (and perhaps especially if) consensus is not going his way. There is a pattern of boarderline incivility (and clearly patronizing) posts when consensus isn't going his way or if he is called out on his editing behavior. If anyone examining this case decided to look at FL's talk page, I recommend searching through the page history, because not all posts that were made to FL are represented in the linked "archives". Additionally, the RfC is an example of FL knowing that he can never be wrong taken to the extreme (just see how he still refers to this day). I'd be glad to discuss the conflicts from early 2007 that I/Severa were involved with, but I think the important thing is that concerns of FL's talk page behavior during disputes date back to then. And not a whole lot has changed. -Andrew c  22:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply to KillerChihuahua's Proposed Community Ban

I have been editing at Misplaced Pages since April of 2004. As KillerChihuahua knows, I was blocked today for the third time, so I have been blocked on average once per year. The current block was for 3RR when I reverted KillerChihuahua, and I have already apologized repeatedly for it at my talk page. As MastCell put it, I "did show contrition for violating 3RR." If anyone wants to read the details at my talk page, here's the link. Mastcell also noted that, "There's been incivility on both sides."

KillerChihuahua has taken this opportunity to build a case for banning me. I disagree with her, and would like to explain why.

KillerChihuahua has been uncivil to me today. At the abortion article today, she asserted that my words are "bullshit". At the pregnancy article today, she suggested that I am "naive and disingenuous." More recently, at the stillbirth article, she said that I am a "spammer". Actually, the "spam" to which she referred was a list of definitions of the word "womb" from reliable sources, and I had not previously listed those definitions (or any of them) anywhere else, prior to listing them in the stillbirth article. More examples of incivility abound. Here, KC said that my words are "inane." Here she said that my behaviour served no purpose, "unless your purpose is to convince others that you are congenitally dense."

Let's look at KC's allegations. She says that I have been waging a low-level edit war via attrition on abortion and related pages since December 2006, fading in and out like some kind of guerilla. It is true that I have edited those pages, among many many others, as can be seen from my contribution history. I have 271 articles on my watchlist, and I do not enjoy the hassles of continuously editing the abortion-related articles, so I revisit them now and then.

I will pass over KC's generalized allegations (which I deny) and go to her specific examples. She starts with the example of the stillbirth article, which involved the 3RR for which I have apologized today (involving my third block in as many years). KC says: "My count (and I may have missed some) is six editors supporting 'uterus' over 'womb' as a more accurate and appropriate term, and one or two 'no preference' editors, and one, Ferrylodge, edit warring to use the word 'womb' - the debate has been spread over multiple articles....Ferrylodge is maintaining his position that he alone is correct, that he alone is NPOV, that editors who disagree with him are disruptive edit warring POV pushers. No one supports his preferred phrasing and since his block, no one has reverted to his version or inserted the word."

But look at the actual discussion at stillbirth that KC emphasizes. Prior to KC's appearance at that article, a grand total of one single editor (ConfuciusOrnis) sought to completely remove the word "womb" from that stillbirth article. I wrote a talk page response to that one single editor, in which I pointed out that I was not seeking to introduce the word "womb" into the article, seeing as how that word had been in the article long before I ever touched that stillbirth article.. Moreover, I explained that I was not advocating removing the word "uterus" from the article, but rather believed the article should contain both words, which are synonymous.

If there had been more than just one other editor trying to change the stillbirth article to completely delete the word "womb", then I would have acquiesced, with objections. But there was only one. KillerChihuahua then came to the stillbirth article today, and reverted in favor of ConfuciusOrnius here. I now quote her edit summary verbatim: "Ferrylodge I have no idea why you are so in love with the word 'womb' but please stop this silly campaign to use an inaccurate and non-specific vulgar term. Write a poem or something. 'Ode to the womb.'" I am not in love with the word "womb". Rather, I objected to the recent effort (of the last two days) to completely delete this word "womb" from all of Misplaced Pages's abortion-related and pregnancy-related articles. I have never suggested that either the word "uterus" or the word "womb" should be completely removed, but have instead contended that they are synonymous words so that neither should be eliminated from Misplaced Pages. After all, Misplaced Pages guidelines say: "Write for the average reader and a general audience—not professionals or patients. Explain medical jargon or use plain English instead if possible."

In addition to KillerChihuahua's rude edit summary (accusing me of a silly campaign and telling me to go write a poem), Killerchihuahua also commented very briefly at the talk page, accusing me of spamming the stillbirth talk page. Please look at what she erroneously called "spam": a detailed list of reliable sources stating that those two words ("womb" and "uterus") are synonymous --- at that time (14:13 on 20 September) I had not shown that list anywhere else but at the stillbirth talk page (I would later copy the list at 14:45 in the pregnancy discussion because people were similarly attempting to completely delete the longstanding word "womb" from that pregnancy article as well). Instead of replying civilly at the stillbirth discussion page, KillerChihuahua blithely called the list of references in the stillbirth talk page "spam", and reverted my edit without addressing that list of references whatsoever (beyond her insults in the edit summary and her accusation of spam at the talk page).

Killerchihuahua suggests that no one has agreed with me that the word "womb" can sometimes be used in addition to the word "uterus" in these types of articles. She is incorrect. Hoplon has agreed with me today. Also, Agne has also agreed with me that "'womb' is undoubtedly the more common term. Both Misplaced Pages policies and common sense implores us to look at the context of each usage and decide which one is one appropriate." I understand the need to acquiesce when outnumbered. I've done it a million times at Misplaced Pages (more than I would like). And I am prepared to do it here as well, though I detest the effort to completely delete the word "womb" from numerous Misplaced Pages articles where it has coexisted with the word "uterus" for years, without any fuss at all.

KillerChihuahua's next example is the POV tag that I added to the abortion article. In my entire three years at Misplaced Pages, I have never before added a POV tag once until this week. I do it twice this week and that's grounds for banishment? Killerchihuahua is incorrect when she says that I had no support at the abortion article; you can go to the discussion page and see the support. For example, LCP wrote today that his "main argument is that the lack of any image of what is aborted or any mention of how what is aborted is disposed of harms the credibility of this article." When the POV tag was removed for a second time, I did not edit-war about its removal. And I stand by my contention that the abortion article is slanted; it contains virtually no description of what is aborted, and KC has insisted yet again this week that the article not even contain a single image of what is aborted.

KC also criticizes me because I "strongly recommended" (on Talk:Pregnancy) that an opposing editor on the Stillbirth article be blocked for disruption; she sarcastically writes: "of course it could not be a simple case of Ferrylodge editing against consensus." As I already pointed out, at that time there was only one single editor (ConfuciusOrnis) at the stillbirth article who wanted the word "womb" to be completely deleted from that article though it had been in that article for years. ConfuciusOrnis was edit-warring about it, as the article's edit history shows. If one editor supports a change in the article, and another editor opposes the change, how does that create a "consensus" for changing the article? KC is flat wrong about that.

KC also asserts that I should be banned because I asked her today to not post on my talk page. I have previously been accused of harassing KC at her talk page, and I have not gone anywhere near her talk page since that accusation. Am I under an obligation to allow her to post at my talk page? Is it grounds for banishment for an editor to politely ask another editor to post elsewhere than at the first editor's talk page? KC also complains that I cherry-pick her statements. I quoted her above several times, and I provided a link every time. Is it cherry-picking to mention that she characterizes my words as "bullshit"? If KC does not want such insults to be cherry-picked, then she should not utter them in the first place.

KC also asserts that "Ferrylodge showed himself resistant to the concept that he could possibly have erred at all." That is obviously false, and she knows it. Earlier today, I repeatedly apologized for my 3RR error. Likewise, yesterday, I specifically apologized to KC for another error here. When I make mistakes, I try to own up to them.

Lastly, KC complains about an RfC that I initiated against Bishonen. That was the only RfC that I have ever initiated against anyone during my entire three years at Misplaced Pages, although I did once join an RfC launched by someone else. KC is now seeking to dredge up that incident, and to get the last word. I feel compelled to briefly respond yet again. In my view, the harassment charge against me several months ago was inappropriate. Killerchihuahua never asked me to leave her talk page. Bishonen asked me to leave KC's talk page, but Killerchihuahua did not. I did leave KC's talk page after denying the harassment charge, and I was blocked for denying the charge. How many other people at Misplaced Pages are blocked for harassing someone who never asked to be left alone? When I subsequently brought an RfC against Bishonen, Bishonen rounded up her friends, who proceeded to abuse the RfC, for example byposting images of food and the like. Neither I, nor the editor who joined me in the RfC, agreed with the outcome, but I dropped the matter rather than going through a time-consuming and disruptive arbitration.

So, those are my responses to KC's initial post here. I may or may not have further comments, depending upon whether time permits, although I will be travelling on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday (September 21-23) and therefore will not have internet access.

I would like to very briefly respond now to Swatjester, who mentions a recent article in the Washington Post, which mentioned me. No objective person could read that article and conclude that I was edit-warring, anymore than they conclude that the other mentioned editor (Tvoz) was edit-warring. The fact of the matter is that there was a lot of controversy at the Fred Thompson article, and the majority of editors agreed with my position. Why should I be banned from Misplaced Pages because a majority of editors agreed with me about a particular matter?

You know quite well that's not why you're being requested to be banned. Don't attempt to hide this in a content issue; this is about your disruptive behavior. ⇒ SWATJester 17:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I will also briefly respond now to Severa. KillerChihuahua accuses me above of "using claims of having been wronged to attempt to gain leverage over others." Then Severa posts her comment that she "stopped editing Misplaced Pages due to having to deal with Ferrylodge's tendentious editing." I wonder if KC will criticize Severa for "using claims of having been wronged to attempt to gain leverage over others."

Severa is upset about a comment that I made at a talk page over six months ago, and here is the entire comment: "I have posted a general comment about reverts, and the need to explain them, here." That's it. I have little recollection of it, but if people really believe that such a brief comment six months ago supports banning me, then I will investigate further, and try to reconstruct why Severa could have been so offended by such a brief remark by me. My understanding of "wikistalking" is that it's done to harass, whereas it's perfectly OK to monitor a user if one believes that the user's edits are suspect and need another eye. I hardly think that that one brief sentence over six months ago is even remotely related to wikistalking.

I have no grudge against anyone at Misplaced Pages, including KillerChihuahua. But that does not mean I should relax and accept being called a "bullshit" artist, or the like, does it? My goal is to calmly develop a neutral and well-referenced incredible encyclopedia. If anyone looks at my contributions in toto, I believe you will find that they have helped reach that goal, including my edits to abortion-related articles. Among other things, I brought the Roe v. Wade article through a featured article review, and have done much else to improve Misplaced Pages, and I am proud of it.Ferrylodge 05:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Given your repeated claims that you will not apologize ever to KillerChihuahua, you most certainly do have a grudge. ⇒ SWATJester 17:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I will tell you what the concern is, Ferrylodge. Had you responded in a manner that shows some kind of understanding and acceptance that your behavior has been disruptive, I would have reconsidered my support for a community ban or a topic ban. We all make mistakes, and can learn not to repeat them, if willing. That is a choice we all have. But your response is a defense in which you claim that you have not erred, when the evidence is overwhelming that you did. That's a pity. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:44, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Reply to Tvoz

Tvoz has made some pretty extensive comments above, and so I should respond. Tvoz and I were both honored to appear in a Washington Post article together recently. The subject was the rather trivial matter about how Fred Thompson's name should be presented in his Misplaced Pages article. Ultimately, the position that I supported prevailed (at least for the time being), and Tvoz is understandably not happy about that.

Tvoz now charges me with four separate "misrepresentations." However, she mischaracterizes all four of those matters.

Tvoz, please look at this edit of yours on September 9. When a person (such as yourself) footnotes a proposition, the implication is that the person supports the proposition. You are wrong to seek my banishment merely because I inferred your support for a proposition that you yourself footnoted. You’re entitled to correct the misimpression left by your edit, but please don’t demand apologies from me for drawing a perfectly reasonable inference. People do not normally footnote propositions with which they disagree.

I'll quibble with that: in that very same matter, I introduced a link to an image of Thompson's first marriage certificate, and argued for retaining it, although it tended on the whole to support Tvoz's position rather than ours. OTOH, Tvoz expressed surprise at my action, and seemed to think I didn't realise that it tended to support her position, which tends to support your claim that this behaviour is unusual. But it's all a bit murky. -- Zsero 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Tvoz's suggestion that I crept over to the wp:mosbio and supposedly neglected to say why I was so interested, please look again. Before I ever suggested any change to the mosbio, I loudly and plainly announced at mosbio that I was concerned about Fred Thompson.

Tvoz also says that I “misrepresented” her suggestion that I visit the John Edwards page to argue about how Edwards's name should be presented. I visited the MOSBIO (instead of John Edwards's page) and mentioned that Tvoz had suggested I do so. What difference does this miniscule error make? Tvoz was suggesting that I argue about how John Edwards’s name is presented, so what difference does it make if I ended up making that argument at MOSBIO as opposed to at the John Edwards article? Why is this more than splitting hairs? What possible benefit could I derive from this incredibly slight imprecision? Tvoz keeps saying that I “misrepresented” her, but there was no dishonesty on my part, only an extremely slight imprecision.

Then Tvoz piles on with alleged misrepresentation #3: that I said “The article has again been edited (by Tvoz) to reinsert this material.” I only meant that the article had been edited to reinsert the material more than once, and that Tvoz was the person who did so the last time. After Tvoz requested that I clarify, I did here, in order to emphasize that the material was previously reinserted by another editor instead of by Tvoz. What more could I possibly do than correct myself? These are extremely slight matters, and not relevant to a proposed ban.

Then Tvoz alleges a fourth misrepresentation: she says that I falsely accused her of wikistalking. But I told Tvoz point blank: “I am not making accusations. Some users are unaware that it is bad form to follow other users around. If you are following me around (from Fred Thompson to abortion to mother), then I would kindly ask you to please stop.” Do you want me to engrave that in gold and send it to you, Tvoz? How can I say that I am not making accusations any better than that?

And as for the other events at the Fred Thompson article, here’s a link in case anyone’s interested.Ferrylodge 10:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Your point? I was in the WaPo article as well. Doesn't dismiss Tvoz's evidence that you have been edit warring on the FredThompson page. The fact that your tendentious editing rose to the level of finding its way to the FRONT PAGE of the Washington Post due to your edit war over Fred Thompson's name, should be a telling sign of your tendentious editing tendencies. That Pleasantville suggests that you may also be misogynist only makes even more sense; the weight of the evidence apparently supports it, and it is pretty widely known that my history with Pleasantville has been less than stellar. At your fourth "misrepresentation" it does not matter how you couch your words in the illegitimate form of a question. You were accusing Tvoz of stalking you. Saying "I'm not making accusations. Stop stalking me." is itself a clear accusation. At your second "misrepresentation" you say "Tvoz keeps saying that I “misrepresented” her". Your entire freaking argument is about how she's misrepresenting you. Which is it? ⇒ SWATJester 17:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is completely wrong. The WaPo piece was not about Ferrylodge's "edit war"; it would be just as fair to say that it was about Tvoz's "edit war". Tvoz was the one who insisted on making a change without first achieving consensus for it.

Pleasantville's accusation of misogyny is contemptible, and there's nothing at all to support it - we generally don't know each other's sexes around here. I only learned that Tvoz was a woman from the WaPo.

And no, Ferrylodge did not say or imply "Stop stalking me", which would indeed be an accusation; he said, in effect, "please don't stalk me". When asked about this, he made it clear that his warning was preemptive, not an accusation of misconduct that had already happened.

Zsero 19:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Where have I allegded that Ferrylodge is a misogynist? I have pointed out (correctly) that he is the editor of a "Men's Rights" page concerning reproductive rights. If in Zsero's opinion, "Men's rights" are misogynist, he is entitled to his opinion, but that is not my opinion. --Pleasantville 21:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Pleasantville didn't. Ferrylodge accused Pleasantville of alleging he was a misogynist. Or he accused me, that part is unclear. I think it was probably me. However, it was a fairly typical case of Ferrylodge inflating and twisting what someone else said, so that now Zsero is left with the impression Pleasantville alleged something she didn't. KillerChihuahua 22:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Summary so Far

So, it seems that there are a few choices after some discussion:

• - Outright ban (seems excessive)
• - Topic ban on reproduction and US politics
• - Edit Warring parole (1RR or similar)

After reading this I think that an edit warring parole is the place to start, and that the specifics of it should not be limited to reverts of article space. The parole should include all facets that have been discussed of tenditious distruptive behavior. --Rocksanddirt 17:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

1RR per week site-wide in all namespaces and topic ban from reproduction-related and U.S. politics articles, per Yamla. Also, an immediate, total site ban if Ferrylodge is discovered circumventing his restrictions with sockpuppets.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.94.194 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 21 September 2007

• I support an outright ban. Reading his comments and viewing his history he's not ammenable to change. Odd nature 18:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that this matter, seeing opposition (including my own) to the outright ban, should be requested to be discussed by the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration committee. The top of this page reads, "Complex or ambiguous cases should go to dispute resolution." This isn't the type of case that should really be handled by the community sanction noticeboard. I know some of you have said, "I don't think dispute resolution would work", but you never bothered to try the next steps. Bans are supposed to be a last resort. Please consider taking this to the ArbCom. Mahalo nui loa. --Ali'i 18:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Banned

Based on the overwhelming consensus for a ban seen here, I've blocked Ferrylodge idedfinitely. FeloniousMonk 18:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Concur. (See Tom Harrison's quote on my user page.) Raymond Arritt 18:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose this (in my opinion, premature) indef block, as I don't think you can determine "overwhelming consensus" after less than 24 hours of discussion. (However, I have no opinion on the overall merits of the case against Ferrylodge yet, as I haven't had the chance to fully review his contributions). JavaTenor 18:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

He can appeal it if he wants. But this was approaching snowball's chance in Tahiti of not happening. OrangeMarlin 18:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I object to such a quick decision, and also object to this being characterized as a WP:SNOW situation. There are numerous objections above, which, if you read WP:SNOW, is not a snowball. - Dean Wormer 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support Odd nature 18:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strongest Possible Support Filll 18:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Support OrangeMarlin 19:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support. He can show some contrition and appeal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support (obviously, but just for the record) KillerChihuahua 19:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - "overwhelming consensus"? I make the vote thus far 9 to 6 in favour of an outright ban versus a lesser penalty measure. That doesn't seem very "overwhelming" to me. Gatoclass 19:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  comment: Its not a "penalty". Please feel free to ask me about this on my talk page, but blocks are always preventative, not punitive. That you so clearly misunderstand the purpose and intent of blocking and banning leads me to be concerned that your reasoning in other areas concerning this may be somewhat faulty as well. KillerChihuahua 19:07, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite frankly, the difference seems semantic to me. You may throw someone in jail as a "preventative measure" rather than a "punishment", but I doubt the terminology makes much difference to the timeserver. Gatoclass 19:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• I object, strongly. This was a fucking terrible call. See my statement above this section for my reasoning. Mahalo. --Ali'i 19:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: After months after months of low-level disruptive editing, this editor has to be dealt with, IMHO. If there are not enough people to support this ban, and/or if this editor successfully appeals, then of course he should be welcomed back to WP. For now, this gives the community time to look at his egregious and shameful record of past abuses and consider if this is the kind of element we support having here. And we can do so without his excessive interference and personal attacks on those considering the situation while we contemplate his record, as he has done in the past when corrective measures and guidance were suggested or offered. If it is decided this was done with excessive alacrity, then it can of course be reversed, right?--Filll 19:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support -Severa 19:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support a full ban (though I do think the implementation of it was premature). I read all of the evidence (and more) yesterday and waited until Ferrylodge had a chance to respond (perhaps others did the same?). I found his response lacking in both remorse for his incorrect actions and truth. I looked at the things he claimed supported his position, and his misrepresentations of what actually happened were clear, which is in keeping with all of the other evidence presented I'd love it if a parole or topic ban would help, but based on his past, I don't think either will. It's a fundamental issue here. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 19:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

  I concur. It did happen rather fast, but apparently was driven largely by his own response (based on edit summaries.) And it was much longer than the time it took for Theodore7's ban, for example. KillerChihuahua 19:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support ban Ugh, just finished going through his responses and some of his earlier talk page contribs. The user is incorrigible, a ban is the only way to stop his disruption. ornis (t) 19:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong oppose and object. There's hardly been time - I only learned about this last night. Of course there's an initial surge of support for a ban, because those users knew about it first. It's especially unfair since Ferrylodge's ability to respond to accusations has been extremely limited (his IP at work remains blocked, and he's already said he'll be away from the net over the weekend). This block is completely unfair, and all on its own justifies Ferrylodge's claim to be the victim here. It looks to me like a lynching. I demand that it be reversed at once. -- Zsero 19:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the IP not working... it was a lingering autoblock from my 3RR block. I used our autoblock-finding tool to undo it when I unblocked Ferrylodge's main account, but it didn't show any autoblocks, so I was confused. As it turns out, the autoblock finder was malfunctioning, so I was unable to find and undo the autoblock on Ferrylodge's work IP. I apologize for this technical problem. MastCell 20:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• • Especially when the one doing the final deed is involved in the discussion. Like I said... this has all the appearances of a railroading. Oh, the irony. --Ali'i 19:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it does not pass the smell test. It should be reversed for further discussion, to allow an actual "overwhelming" consensus to form. Several options were proposed, and were not discussed fully. Dean Wormer 19:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

2.5:1 in favor of a ban passes my smell test, pal. Odd nature 20:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Your use of the word "pal" in this context is decidedly uncivil. Please reformulate your response. 2.5:1 is certainly not an "overwhelming" consensus, nor a snowball. The discussion isn't over yet. Dean Wormer 21:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

At the moment it is running 4:1 in favor of a ban, so if something is rotten in Denmark here, it is not the consensus for a ban. It must be something else. Hmm...I wonder what that might be?--Filll 20:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

And what exactly is it you are implying with that thinly veiled lack of AGF? Dean Wormer 21:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Come now, this can easily be reversed if the situation is as unfair, biased and one-sided as you assert it is. What this does is, create a breathing space for the community to consider this festering DE problem that has polluted WP for at least 9 months in an unimpeded manner. Past evidence suggests that in some cases, pre-emptive measures are appropriate and prudent since those considering the record of this editor do not themselves want to be subjected to intimidation and harassment and wikilawyering. If in a calm, contemplative atmosphere, it is determined by the community that some mistake has been made, or some rules violated, or some element of protocol applied inappropriately, this decision can be revisited and reversed, of course.--Filll 19:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, let's tape the defendant's mouth while we all discuss which tree to hang him from. This is a f---ing travesty. -- Zsero 19:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This is more like taking the defendant's gun away from him while we discuss his fate, when the defendant has previously fired his gun at those who dared suggest he had done anything inappropriate.--Filll 19:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What gun? You're assuming what it's up to you to prove. All he's done that I can see is defended himself when attacked, and pointed out that he has not in fact done the things people have accused him of. And now you're taping his mouth shut to prevent him from doing so. Verdict first, trial after. In any case, he's already said he'll be away from home over the weekend, and he can't edit from work, so what are you afraid of? That he'll get a word in edgewise when he can manage a net connection that isn't blocked? -- Zsero 20:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I suspect Zsero is unaware of this editor's past behavior when challenged, which goes well beyond "defending himself". I suggest you review the record carefully before making such statements.--Filll 20:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Zsero here is a frequent revert-partner (I'd go so far as to say an accomplice) in Ferrylodge's tendentious editing. Zsero should probably be on revert parole himself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.174.171.187 (talk • contribs)

Please do not make personal attacks. It is not productive, and your reasoning is flawed. We are not all in cohoots with Ferrylodge. Dean Wormer 19:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose block (for now at least) per Ali'i and the lack of time. As I read more about Ferrylodge's action, I became more incline to advocate a strong topic ban (including contact with KC) with 1RR but action was taken far to prematurely without clear consensus to do so. This was far from a WP:SNOW situation. Agne/ 19:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh, I don't know about that, there was a clear consensus and whatever support for Ferrylodge there was was weak and scatered, and none made very compelling arguments for not banning. Add that to his total lack of contrition and the additional evidence presented by Raymond Arritt, and I don't see how he wouldn't be banned. He practically begged for it in his response. Odd nature 19:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree there was consensus for some kind of sanction but I don't see how you can read the above small sampling of response and see anything close to a WP:SNOW consensus for indef ban. Couple that with the incredibly short time frame and it clear that the block was premature and (right now) inappropriate. Agne/ 19:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Object I am adding my objection here, as my objection above is nested within a sub thread. Dean Wormer 19:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support, we must always protect our project and its volunteers from chronic harassment and abuse. How much longer do we accommodate Ferrylodge's disruption? 84.174.171.187 19:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support, for reasons argued in the initial discussion; Ferrylodge is an activist with an unremitting agenda. --Pleasantville 20:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hold on there, are you saying that there are political motivations at play here? Then I object even more strenuously. This is starting to sound like a content dispute. Dean Wormer 20:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to his contributions. I have severe objections to his past behavior, which is well beyond what should be allowed in the project. And this is true no matter what is personal political position or agenda might be on any particular issue.--Filll 20:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Dean Wormer: I was summarizing my initial statement. See above in the first discussion. My remarks pertain to behavior rather than to the specifics of his opinions. --Pleasantville 20:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support ban. Guettarda 20:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support a full ban – dave souza, talk 20:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• CommentA pre-emptive block during an ongoing discussion is very poor form, especially when it undermines the actions of another admin - Mastcell specifically unblocked Ferrylodge so that he could participate in this discussion. See Misplaced Pages:Wheel war. I note that FeloniousMonk has also tagged Ferrylodge's userpage with the community ban template, without closing this discussion. Very poor choices for an admin. Banno 21:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not pretend to know all the niceties and protocols that hold here. However, I do know what the past record shows. And I for one, would not welcome a personal attackod or having an RfC filed against me for no good reason, or other tactics this editor has employed in the past. Enough is enough.--Filll 21:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not preemptive block. FM's block summary implies just the opposite, that the block was instantiating a ban which had consensus, both true BTW. Odd nature 21:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: FeloniousMonk didn't add the tags to Ferrylodge's page. KillerChihuahua 21:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk wasn't wheel-warring. I unblocked Ferrylodge so he could contribute to this discussion. FeloniousMonk blocked him in consequence of this discussion. He wasn't undoing my administrative action; regardless of what you think of the propriety of the block, he was not wheel-warring. MastCell 21:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

FM and Swatjester both added templates, but where is it written that the person issuing the block has to close the discussion here? I don't see anything that says FM should have done that. Odd nature 21:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

My error, I only saw Swat's. Thanks for the correction, ON. I have to say I don't see why FM should be criticised for not closing this, as clearly some contributors feel more discussion and input is needed. That seems to conflict with the concerns that this was a "too rapid response". I'm perplexed by the contradictory assertions. And no, the blocking admin doesn't have to close, nor is it written anywhere that he does. KillerChihuahua 21:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I supported sanctions short of a full community ban, and questioned the speed with which a not-yet-formulated consensus was carried out, and characterized. For that, I have been treated uncivilly, and had my good faith questioned. I have more important wiki work to do, so I will participate in this drumhead court no longer. Dean Wormer 21:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Unblock please

I'd strongly urge FeloniousMonk to unblock Ferrylodge at least until the conclusion of proceedings here, and until stronger consensus for a ban appears, a simple vote count (I know, evil) reveals something around 65% support for a ban at the present time, not really a firm enough consensus to warrant a definitive, final ban. Nick 21:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually its a 4:1 consensus in favor of the ban. Why on earth would should FM unblock him? Odd nature 21:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely with KillerChihuahua's formulation of the problem here. Yes, Ferrylodge is a tendentious editor; yes, interacting with him has driven at least one highly valued contributor from the project, a significant loss for Misplaced Pages; yes, I personally feel that a siteban is a reasonable, if somewhat strong, remedy. But I don't think anyone can dispute that some significant objections have been voiced here, and there's been some support for discussing alternative remedies like 0RR/1RR or topic bans. I think that if we enact a siteban in the face of real, good-faith dissent, then we're undermining the credibility this process in the long run. Far more tendentious editors have been given a last-chance topic ban or revert limitation. I don't think anyone has seriously disputed that Ferrylodge's approach is problematic; why not take the opportunity to discuss our options in dealing with it a little further and try to bring some of the editors who have opposed a siteban into the consensus? If we block him now, then the discussion is going to be viewed as closed, for all intents and purposes. Like Nick, I'd just rather see a little more before we take that step. MastCell 21:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Despite what you may have read in the Washington Post :-P , I have seen Ferrylodge be a helpful contributor at Fred Thompson, and would support a topical ban from abortion/pregnency articles or a revert limit if that is where he is being disruptive. But I've been maligned enough in this "discussion", so I'm taking a break. Mahalo. --Ali'i 21:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

(ec)I strongly feel that eventually it will have to be a site ban, as I just don't see Ferrylodge ever seeing anything problematic about his behavior. I think unblocking him will simply take more time and waste more virtual ink. However, I do not object to unblocking him if anyone feels his lengthly diatribe against those who presented evidence here and supported his block has afforded him insufficient response. Meanwhile, the "ban" section above seems to consist of those supporting the block, and those opposing it as enacted too quickly. I again point to Theodore7's ban, as precedent, that "fast" isn't always the wrong choice, and suggest that merely opposing on the grounds of rapidity is unhelpful. Fast is sometimes better than slow, if it merely serves to prolong the agony. I suggest if anyone wishes to make an argument for another remedy, such as 0RR, 1RR, topic bans, and the like, that a section be created for that purpose. However, as opinions are split, care will have to be taken not to conflate opposition to the ban with support of Ferrylodge's behavior. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 21:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

While I agree with KC that Ferrylodge will end up with a site ban as he cannot learn, I do not like implementation of such a ban prior to the completion of this discussion, unless there was disruption somewhere else. I agree with Mastcel that it undermines the integrity of this forum, which is part a way to speed up the process of dealing with disruptive editors. --Rocksanddirt 21:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

at the risk of sounding dense... you think he should be site banned, but you object that its been done? I'm sorry, that reads like "we should spend lots of time discussing it, then do it." Rather than "its going to happen anyway, why waste everyone's time?" KillerChihuahua 22:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the rush? 24 more hours isn't going to change consensus for banning him amongst the community he's pissed of. --Rocksanddirt 22:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

If the editor is going to be banned, sit back, relax and wait for consensus to emerge, don't cut the guy off and stop him from mounting a defence, no matter how ridiculous or an attack on others, if he is to avoid being banned, he deserves every change to do so, and if he is going to be banned, allowing things to run to their conclusion isn't hurting anyone. If it takes another few hours, a day or more before everyone is happy to close the discussion and ban the guy, so what. Rushing everything through is just causing more problems than it solves, as we see here. I don't see any reason to block the guy while there is still discussion ongoing about a ban or other measures though. Nick 22:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. However, this has gone on for 9 or 10 months at this point, with repeated problems along the way. Also, this editor has shown a strong propensity to attack those who question him. So I see no particular reason to give this person more rope to hang us with.--Filll 22:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I"m sorry, but why do we have to walk gently around an editor like this one. Who cares how fast this went? He's not at all useful to the project (look at how long this thing has gotten). And frankly, why don't we get rid of people like this and spend equivalent or more energy in supporting individuals who actually work on this project in a productive manner. I don't know you NIck, but why do you even care about a tendentious editor like Ferrylodge? How does he help the project? It's time to move on. OrangeMarlin 22:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we are walking gently, I think we are trying to have a process that will stand up to community scrutiny. I don't care about ferrylodge, I care about the process here. leaving him unbanned to contribute here only is hardly walking gently. If he edits out side of this discussion or in any manner disruptively then it doesn't matter. --Rocksanddirt 22:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Nick, are you seariously saying he didn't have an opportunity to defend himself? Did you read his long-winded non-responses above? He mounted a defense, and it consisted of blaming and re-attacking others. And he'd apparently stopped editing prior to the block. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the claim that he was given the bum rush. Odd nature 22:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

(Outdenting) As I've been the subject of an RfC brought by Ferrylodge, which he discusses in his response above, I think it best not to register an opinion at all in the section below. I agree with Andrew c's point that Ferrylodge's Misplaced Pages fate ought to be decided by uninvolved editors, not by those of us who have interacted or clashed with him. So I'm not here to opine, so much, as to really, really recommend these uninvolved editors to read that RfC/Bishonen and most especially its talkpage. No, I do know that you already have enough to read! In fact the amount of information in this thread is becoming quite forbidding. But that's exactly my point: the RfC talkpage is a kind of easy-to-access concentrate of the thing at issue here, which is Ferrylodge's demeanour and argumentation technique in debate and disagreement. Going straight to that page could save you some time. And if you need a really lightning-quick mini-fix, try going straight to the last section on the RfC talkpage, the discussion of the closing procedure. Bishonen | talk 23:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC).

Proposals

Endorse current ban

• Support ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support Odd nature 22:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support --Pleasantville 22:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support Exactly how many times do I have to vote on this ban?OrangeMarlin 22:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support --Filll 22:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support KillerChihuahua 22:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support -Severa 22:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - EdJohnston 22:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support ornis (t) 22:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Indef topic ban on all pregnancy and abortion related articles, zero tolerance on continuing WP:TE on other articles

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Indef topic ban on all pregnancy and abortion and political related articles, zero tolerance on continuing WP:TE on other articles

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