Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:08, 24 September 2007

Welcome

Hello, Denaar, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the Newcomers help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The Five Pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Editing tutorial
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Stifle 14:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

David Haslam

Regarding the article David Haslam, which you tagged for speedy deletion with the reason "This article was created in the last 48 hours and all of its revisions are a blatant copyright infringement from the website of a commercial content provider: http://www.hydrographicsociety.org/Articles/journal/2001/100-1.htm, with no assertion of permission. A commercial content provider is someone engaged in directly making money off the content. (CSD A8)", I wanted you to know that I have removed the speedy deletion tag. This article does not qualify for speedy deletion because hydrographicsociety.org is not a commercial content provider. If you still want the article to be deleted, please use the WP:CP process. Thanks! Stifle 14:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Antic Cafe

It would be great is someone cleaned up the member sections of the Antic Cafe page, it will be a fair amount of work, but will better the page significantly. If you are undertaking the project yourself, thank you for the help, if not, any help on the section is appreciated. --Jacob 05:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Visual Kei

A call for opinions can be useful, but please remember Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, so we need to build consensus. I'd suggest that the most useful way to do this at this point is to cite a Japanese source which describes the musical characteristics of Visual Kei, if you have any.

-- TimNelson 07:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

electronic music articles

Hi Denaar, thanks for your revert of the page move vandalism.

I've reverted the changes a few times, but I need to be careful not to go over the line. One other editor has reverted also, though I don't know how often he'll be around. Another editor entered a comment here, about the recent disruptions.

Susume-eat also changed a lot of the content, moving info from Electronica to the article that used to be about Electronic Dance music, for example here.

His plan is to eliminate electronica and electronic dance music and combine them in one article about electronic popular music or some similar title. The result is a complete mishmosh of articles that should be separate, the loss of navigation clarity and the loss of information. This is causing a lot of confusions and it's going to take more than one editor to revert the mess.

He also redirected electronic art music to electronic music (classical) without consensus. That one isn't as much of a problem because it's so obscure, though it's also incorrect, but I'm focusing on the dance and electronica issues right now.

The articles can certainly be improved with references, but they should still exist. The only way to deal with tendentious editing is for multiple editors to help with reversions.

Because I've been vocal on this and reverted his changes several times, he's been watching everything I do, and he'll see your reversion in the history, so don't be surprised if you get some strange messages from him on your talk page. I've tried communicating with him but he's completely rejected any kind of collaboration.

Please continue to check the history of those pages and revert the vandalism of both page moves and content when you have a chance, that would be very helpful. Best Wishes --Parsifal _Hello 22:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello Unint(same for Denaar). I have caused no vandalism. This man tried to accuse me of vandalism, the case was thrown out quickly spinning. We have a communication problem, I am very happy be friends and work improve wikipedia, please all calling me vandalism really hurts my feelings, I worked very hard yesterday, all day long, 24 hour. Unint, I am happy to discuss with you, I hope we can agree some misunderstandings, now progress from the current edit, anyone can edit wikipedia, be bold, no revert good faith ^-^ ok i feel sad and depressed and frustrated when you call me vandal becaue i really worked hard as ^-^ --Susume-eat 22:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Susume-eat, those words are manipulations, as anyone can see when they read the other words you've written. You came here with uncivil language and declared you were going to make changes without considering anyone else opinions. You made the following statement:

The word for this action in America is "being a pussy". They will say "get some balls" and just do it.

But you are smart, so since that comment, when you saw the response, you then learned how to write pretend-cooperation comments, while your actions show that you do not care even one bit what others think or what references they can produce. You have produced zero references to support what you're doing, and you have not discussed any of your changes sincerely. You proceeded with the changes after multiple people said they did not agree. I am sure that Denaar will through your disingenous note. --Parsifal _Hello 23:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Parsifal please I beg you please stop making personal attacks against my name, it is very hurtful, it is depressing also, makes me feel sad, and also the comment is very "out of context", it makes me look awful when really I worked very hard and there is a lot of discussion there. How can I defend to myself, I feel like crying , I really worked so much of yesterday, 24 hours :-( --Susume-eat 23:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

First, there are no personal attacks in my comments. I am discussing your actions, not you as a person. The fact is that your actions are disruptive and show no respect to other editors. And your comment I quoted is uncivil whatever the context.

As far as you feeling sad about how hard you worked, you could get more benefit from your work by doing some actual research and adding information and sources to improve Misplaced Pages instead of moving around articles against the consensus of other people.

If you do positive work and collaborate instead of ignoring and making fun of people, then your hard work will be recognized and appreciated, even by me. So you don't need to defend yourself, all you need to do is start working with people instead of against them. That will solve all problems. --Parsifal _Hello 23:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Denaar, I don't know if I'll have time to respond to whatever else Suseme-eat posts here. I'm sure you see the situation clearly, whatever else he writes here. I hope you want to help restore the lost articles and if you do, please make whatever reversions you find appropriate. Thanks. --Parsifal _Hello 23:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it - I don't think she/he is bringing up anything productive, if they can quote me the policy that is against "fence sitting" maybe we can reconsider. However, I feel the edits to the Electronica talk page, the comments on your talk page, and the moves and wiping out of pages to be disruptive. Denaar 00:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your note, it's good to hear a voice of reason. His user page says he's male by the way. I guess it comes down to whether or not enough editors care about these articles. There are at least several of us. I think we have some new references we can add too, but there's no use in working on the articles until this settles down. Thanks again, have a good one. --Parsifal _Hello 00:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Edit comments and reverts

Please stop regarding Susume as a vandal or I will report you for violating WP:HAR and WP:OWN. What about the source that states that electronica is not a genre? What about my opinion? Doktor Who 00:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The only source that says it is not a genre was a fan page? As I stated on the talk page: We will find a million sources that say it is, a million sources that say it is not. The article should state it is a genre, since reputable sources such as Rolling Stone say it is. Then, there should be a section noting controversy and the fact that some do not consider it a genre. And, how is blanking a page to make a point WP:Point not disruptive to Misplaced Pages? I can't be following WP:OWN - I have never edited this article. There was a request for third party opinions, I read the talk page in its entirety and presented my opinion based on research. I have not harrassed Mr Susume - he is the one who changed a talk page so it appeared to be significantly different than what it was, and doesn't sign his comments. He was the one who has used foul language to describe other members of wikipedia. He has also made threats and wiped out pages about notable subjects that have already been proven to be notable. These statements about Mr Susume are factual statements only. Frankly, by coming here to my talk page and making threats, I feel you are harassing me. "Harassment is defined as a pattern of offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to have the purpose of adversely affecting a targeted person or persons, usually (but not always) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating the primary target." You have come to my page for the purpose of threatening me and intimidating me into not being involved in this discussion. Denaar 01:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

What makes you think that music zines or whatever comply with WP:RS? As well as books written by journalists, these sources deal with music scenes, not genres. With regard to my message, I posted the same at some talk pages, because, i see too many similar writing styles here.Doktor Who 02:53, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by zines? To me a zine is a fan-produced magazine that was distributed either through mail or locally during the 90's, usually for free (or for 25 - 75 cents), that in many times were subversive to authority figures, so I may be reading your statement wrong. If your asking if I think music magazines by reputable reporters and music critics meet WP:RS then yes, I do. (Rolling Stone is one of the most well respected and well known music magazines in the United States. CMJ - College Music Journal would be another excellent source, but I have those magazines off in storage). I am not sure what you mean by similiar writing styles - if you are asking if I am a sock puppet, then check my contributions - I mainly work on sourcing Japanese subjects. You are more than welcome to contact an administrator to check my IP address and compare it, I doubt I'm even in the same state or city as the other users commenting on this article. Denaar 03:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

again, these sources deal with music scenes, not genres. these sources deal with music scenes, not genres. these sources deal with music scenes, not genres. What is language? Doktor Who 04:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You have really lost me, they talk about genres all the time. The names of many genres are invented by music critics - aka the media. Very rarely does a musician set out and say "I am going to create a new genre!" Instead, someone starts something, someone else follows, and a third person throws a name on the new "movement" or "style" or "genre" (all three of these are the same). Denaar 04:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Aliene Ma'riage

Thanks for the heads up on this. I had a look at the admin discussion, too. There's no way to expand the articles beyond stub stage with Cyrus XIII cutting them up all the time, and I don't really want to waste my time in arguing with him about it. I don't have any sources about the bands that aren't online. If there's some consensus that develops about using commercial sources, then I'll contribute again. Pkeets 02:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I see you've found some good sources for this band. Wonderful! Can you find any for Messalina Rei? Cyrus XIII has cut that one up, too. Pkeets 04:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Missalina Rei.Pkeets 05:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't write this one, but here's another that's been cut to pieces: Noir Fleurir Pkeets 05:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Arguments from 3RR board

Seeing as this has obviously snow-balled into something far more than just a 3RR-related issue, I will bring this to your talk page. I must stress that I am in no way, shape, or form a sock-puppet of Cyrus'. I do collaborate with him on making new articles, and we do, from time to time, discuss ways in which one of us should handle a problem, but we are not out to get you. This is not two people ganging up on you, it is just that Cyrus and I happen to both disagree with you, and you have been grasping at a link between the two of us.

I do not think (unless you are an expert at decoding typing patterns) that you can deduce that my messages were written by another individual, purely by a simple formatting similarity. I use numbers and bullets because it looks professional, and it's easy to organize. I use them in situations in which I need to list many key issues, and this is a situation which calls for them (I will assume Cyrus has the same reasoning for using them).

I am glad that you think I write articulately, as I am only sixteen, however, do not take that as me being inexperienced or naïve. I'v been working on Misplaced Pages registered for at least a year or two, and anonymously prior to that. I think our disagreements have become entangled between the issues Cyrus brings up, and the issues I bring up. I do assume you edit in good faith, hence my polite description of my reversion of your edits to the Visual Kei page. I don't know whether or not you read that for content, or merely noticed the formatting similarity, and dismissed it as Cyrus' work. I do ask that you communicate your concerns (ideally addressing each issue I mentioned on the Visual kei talk page) with me, so as to better understand the inentions of each other. --Jacob 01:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

When you "discuss ways" to deal with a "problem" - you should try talking to the newbies instad of chasing them off wikipedia. We don't have enough editors on these articles, so getting a few more voices in - and showing them how wiki works, because it is not user friendly - is better than starting edit fights with them isn't it?

It was the syntax (word choice) in addition to the formatting. It had that same "well educated, but non-native" word choice to it. Phrases like "influences from visuals-conscious Western phenomena" while technically not being incorrect, don't run smoothly and sound akward. "Avoid another fiasco" sounded like something Cyrus would say - avoiding any kind of direct word choice.

The thing is, the article keeps being written using sources that don't confirm the information that they are listed as "sourcing." In my original edit I was not aware that I removed any resources (just moved them around). I did not add any sources - since any source I add is automatically considered "invalid". Instead, I went back and read the resources. Three of the resources there already stated that visual kei was a genre and described the sound. I quoted them on the VK page. There are a lot more resources out there, but why should I find them when they are so quickly dismissed out of hand? It has already been clearly shown that even if we have 100, or 1000, sources that talk about Visual kei being influnced sound-wise by glam (err, glam has a sound component too and is a genre) the new sources will be rejected. Therefore I went through the "already acceptable" sources. "Glam, touched with bits of industrial and goth" really does describe most the bands in the 90's. Denaar 02:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like it if visual kei were so easily defined, but most of the articles touch on the fact that it's a blend of numerous styles, and the focal point can't be decisively centered. With all of the articles citing "glam rock", that just decreases the accuracy of all of the descriptors, as glam rock was a very broad (albeit lacking ;-]) genre as well. The fact that you can find a term which will encompass MOST of the 1990's era bands, while something that is useful in conversation and journalism, isn't exactly god for the introductory paragraph on the page. It would be nice if someone could break down visual kei into eras and different style (as there are many types and many somewhat-defined periods), but that will have to be thoroughly discussed with all of the editors. I think keeping the "music genre" labeling off of the page for the time being will avoid any misunderstandings, and labeling it as a movement will still allow free interpretation by all parties viewing the page, as it doesn't favor "style" or "musical genre".

As for my language use, it is just how I type, since I was brought up to type at the best levels, I would never converse in such a manner amongst friends and family. I'm a typical relaxed person, but being articulate on Misplaced Pages really gives your credibility a boost.

On "Invalid sources", I think it's just that right now, all sources that are easily found right now are pretty much the same cryptic babel. It talks about the glam-like tendencies, the goth styled culture, and all of these comparisons, with out a defined description. When these sources say "musical genre", I think it's more of a way to keep the article brief, because describing the style, and how each style lines up with different genres, and the exceptions, and the oddities, hell, even this sentence is getting long. The good news is, that leaves room for a very extensive article. When all editors around the visual kei project have had their say in the page, I think it would be wise to gather all that musical genre information and distribute it into different styles (like Nagoya Kei, Oshare Kei, Eroguro , and the plethora of others). I'd like to hear your thoughts on all this. --Jacob 03:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I complete disagree - I believe we should be going with what the sources say, regardless of "if you like it" or not. It is a genre, clearly proven by multiple sources. I think we are trying to apply stringent standards that the Japanese are not using to define the genre. (When describing music, they use different terminology then we do, look up "mixed music" on the Japanese wiki, in English you would be talking about DJs, in Japanese you are talking about nu metal). Whenever "general" statements are made, there will always be exceptions, that is normal. I would like to see different sub-genre's included as well, but there is no need to halt the development of the article as has been done. Denaar 12:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

electronic art music title change

Hi ... If you have a chance, would you take a look at this talk page section and article history of the page that used to be titled Electronic art music? Thanks --Parsifal _Hello 03:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

3RR block

- KrakatoaKatie 17:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Denaar (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

I have not broken the 3RRR rule - my new edits today did not "revert" the page, and were completely new and different from my previous edits. I already mentioned I had made two changes, and why I made them. I think the article flows much more naturally now. If my changes count as reverts (even though they did not revert to any material) I need to know how to procede - we seemed to be editing peacefully this morning. Cyrus's actions would be a 3RRR rule to, but I am not out to "get" anyone. Denaar 17:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Straight-forward violation of WP:3RR as shown below, and continued edit warring on that page today. — Yamla 17:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Initial edit removing the "refers to a movement" bit. Straightfoward revert. Revert two. Revert three. Revert four. --Yamla 17:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Visual Kei, etc

It seems to me that since you requested I look at the Visual Kei article, that Parsifal has pretty much done what I would (but better). So I'll leave it alone for now (since I'm trying to cut down on my Wikipedi-ing; I need to get some work done IRL :) ).

-- TimNelson 06:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Visual Kei,

I would be honoured to help your cause, and by roughly skimming over the talk pages I get the slight feeling the user who is causing most of the dispute is one by the name of "Cyrus XIII"?. As you probably know, the said user is someone who I, and many more contributers within the circle of editors of Japanese music based wikipedia pages have had problems with in the past. It appears what part of his life he dedicates to wikipedia quality protocalls drowns out the part of his brain where common sense should be, however the ego is sadly fine and well. --JinecouO.N.E 16:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Fake? style

about the Fake? genre....I guess you only know about visual bands and no about another styles in the japanese musical scene like Fake?, therefore I dont beleive you listen the band like for say their genre, specially when the jrock isnt a genre if no the rock from japan, but that would be compare dir en grey and laruku, both are bands from japan(japanese rock band) but are genres opposites....plus, on wikipedia there are a lot bands/singers with specific genres like:

Aphex Twin
The Prodigy
Björk

etc...

might you erase them everything???

--Maestrotaku 13:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

about the Fake? genre....I guess you only know about visual bands and no about another styles in the japanese musical scene like Fake?,

I don't know Hungarian or Swedish so I can't help out on those articles for many of the bands I like - there isn't enough information on them in English.

specially when the jrock isnt a genre if no the rock from japan, but that would be compare dir en grey and laruku, both are bands from japan(japanese rock band) but are genres opposites

Japanese Rock is a genre of music - not a style. Go to the All Music Guide subgeners of "rock". Notice the sub-genre "Japanese Rock" is listed. Here is the direct link: Japanese Rock.

on wikipedia there are a lot bands/singers with specific genres like: Aphex Twin, The Prodigy, Björk

Just because another article did it, doesn't mean it is right; we should go by policy/guidelines. I would go edit those articles except that would be against WP:Point - do not disrupt other articles to make a point.

In this case, we don't have sources that describe the band as being all those sounds. It is just turning into one big list (which is something we try to avoid). I think it would be better to say "on this single, they incorporated "----" sound (with a source to confirm this) then just make a huge list of every sound they have ever used. Maybe a separate section should be made for descriptions of the bands sound, which would be much more useful to people then a list. Do they use every sound on every song? If so - they are likely a "new" genre entirely.

For example, the Dir en Grey article has "various" listed in the genre - which would likely be the best here. The sources I have read about the band don't label them as being all those genres - being influenced by something and incorporating it into your sound and BEING that genre is not the same thing. I don't really care what we label them, but it should be provided by a reliable source. I think we should put the top "genres" they fit into in the box. You can change it up from Japanese Rock to the top 3 you think the band falls under for now, but just keep one thing in mind. When someone else listens to a band they say "oh this is punk." I listen to the same band and say "that isn't punk at all, that is alternative." Everyone has different concepts what things sound like, which is why we have to go with the "experts" - aka, published sources.

I really recommend not adding a "sound" section unless you can find resources, it is likely to start a "fight" among different fans who interpret the sound differently. If we have sources for it, it would be good.

Please note that even though most the article is not sourced, it is well written which is why I'm leaving it. With sources we could probably raise it "B" Class as is. If you have some magazines or good info, please add them as a resource to the article. You can use the sources on the article as an example, and I'm willing to work with people to help them learn how to use them. I can tell you really care about this band, so lets work together to give them the best page! Denaar 18:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

according to your point...the american band is a genre, the british band is a genre, etc....if is that, should them erase all and in band each put up only that genre(american band, swedish band, etc..)...that would be stupid.

Besides, your erase the external links according to the policy/guidelines, but those links arent SPAM or have illegal stuff, since give extra info and latest news about the band and should be considered as sources and dont erase them, and of course some references that you added to anothers articules have multiple external links and I didnt see you erase them. --Maestrotaku 15:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

One fansite isn't in English, so I'm not sure how that is going to have a lot of value for an English speaking wikipedia (might be appropriate on the Italian wiki). Now if the band was Italian, we could argue that one for inclusion. The other one looks like someone's personal blog, and doesn't seem to have much in the way of useful content on it. We can't use either as a source, they would both fail WP:RS. Denaar 15:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

the italian is much easier than japanese for the western public and isnt too difficult understand....My first language is spanish, my second is english and i dont know italian, but understand....plus dont exist the italian version about Fake?, therefore if somebody in italy want to know about tha band can go to that site way Wiki english...about the blog, it`s a blog about the Fake? members....but like you dont know them, you dont realize --Maestrotaku 15:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL - "Links to English language content are strongly preferred in the English-language Misplaced Pages. It may be appropriate to have a link to a non-English-language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English; or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language..." "Links normally to be avoided - Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." The blog doesn't seem to a scholarly blog, just a fan page. Denaar 16:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

mmm....http://community.livejournal.com/taste_maximum/profile is a site with news and translations , NO blog and/or personal web and the same users fix the pssibles mistakes(like wikipedia).

about the genres: at the same JAME if you read everything says: alternative rock, punk rock and at JMI says: electronic, pop band

--Maestrotaku 17:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Free Will

The recent arrests are relevant to all the bands signed under the label, use the talk page before editing, as there are two reliable sources from major news companies. No other information has been added, apart from what the news states, including the recent confessions.. You don't like what has happended, but it does not give you the right to remove information with reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.175.210 (talk) 15:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Your recent contribution to the articles Free-Will, Dir en grey, and other bands signed to the label, are regarded as bad faith, vandalism, and edit warring. You have been flagged for this, and I request that you please stop. This information has strong reliable sources, and is important and relevant to every band signed to the label. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.49.175.210 (talk) 19:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thats really the pot calling the kettle. Your edits could get Wiki sued if they are found later to be innocent, and, it doesn't involve any of the articles you are editing except for one. Denaar 22:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The articles clearly state, that the charges and investigation include the money being used to pay for the sub-divisions of Free Will. Furthermore the sources state, that confession were made. ~Jun Kaneko