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	Homeopathy has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 14, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed September 27, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
Current status: Good article

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On 14 September 2007, Homeopathy was linked from Slashdot, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

Archives

Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 1 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 2 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 3 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 4 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 5 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 6 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 7 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 8 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 9 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 10 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 11 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 12 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 13 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 14 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 15 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 16 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 17

New drugs

Ahem, Aconite had been in use for centuries before homeopathy! and apart from that you should say SOME modern drugs. Not too sure about nitroglycerine it is a homeopathic remedy forsure but was it around before? Peter morrell 13:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Added "Some". In order to determine exactly the details of homeopaties contribution to Aconite, I'd need the full text of the source. this one. If anyone has it, Please E-mail it to me. Thanks. Wikidudeman 14:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

As I had anticipated

The reluctance to leave the text in the sandbox longer and invite more input has lead to the current situation. It is already dangerously POV and tons of POV warriors are arriving to push it further yet to proclaim homeopathy as some wonderful medical and scientific advance supported by testing. This is just pure nonsense. What a mess.--Filll 18:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

How is the article itself POV? Please give examples. Wikidudeman 18:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

For one thing, the article waits until nearly the end of the introduction (after two lengthy paragraphs) to state that the claims of effectiveness of homeopathic remedies are unsupported by scientific studies. I have no idea how many readers come through WP to read this article, who may be in dire need of healing the particular things that ail them. But the statement that the remedies are unsupported by evidence (referring to the hundreds double-blind and other properly controlled studies that have been done) should come right after the first paragraph, not after the lead summary of the history. (See WP:NPOV#Undue_weight.) In other words, even right in the lead, the second and third paragraphs should be reversed. Also, given the overwhelming weight of independent experimental evidence, the statement "Claims for the medical efficacy of homeopathic treatments are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies." should probably be in bold typeface. The latter is something I'll proceed to do now. Perhaps a statement to this effect should even be in a disclaimer at the top of the article, prior to the lead text. ... Kenosis 18:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Boldface for emphasis is generally frowned upon. See Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style_(text_formatting)#Boldface WP:Manual of Style - Text Formatting. I changed the text to be in italics instead. No comment on whether or not I agree that this text should be emphasized though. -- Levine2112 18:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Any user who reads the article can clearly see "Medical and scientific analysis" in the table of contents. You can't just add a "disclaimer" anywhere in the article as that's against WP:MOS. No articles do that. Wikidudeman 19:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Meaning that it doesn't support your aims to point out clearly that Homeopathy is pseudoscience. Quite the shame, really. Not too sure which part of WP:Undue Weight you don't grasp, but you'd better give it that old college try or this article will just descend further into a morrass of effluvial piffle. •Jim62sch• 19:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What part of WP:Undue Weight says that Homeopathy must be said to be a pseudoscience? I've read WP:Undue Weight and it says no such thing. What it does says is that you shouldn't give undue weight to a fringe topic. This article does no such thing. No part of this article even argues that Homeopathy works. Not a single sentence. Saying that "Homeopathy is a pseudoscience" would actually be in violation of WP:Undue Weight. However saying that "So and so says it's a pseudoscience" wouldn't. If you're going to reference policy, you should clarify exactly what part of that reference backs what you're saying up. Wikidudeman 19:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Nothing says that it must be. However, as the scientific consensus is that homeopathy is pseudoscience, then the rules for undue weight come into play. None of this is difficult, and I'm beging to feel like I'm discussing this with someone far less than half my age. •Jim62sch• 20:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

This is prima facie evidence that you "own" the article. Why can't you walk away. First, you blame me and Jim for being mean to you. Then, Filll. What now? Kenosis and Guettarda? How about the rest of the project? Good to see support from the usual POV-warriors for your POV writing. Frustrating. You really need to walk away. OrangeMarlin 19:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't own the article. I'm just trying to improve it and I will continue to do so. I've proven numerous times that none of my behavior exhibited corresponds to thinking I own the article and I've asked you numerous times to give clear examples of how something I do corresponds to the contention that I "Own" the article and you've failed to do so. Stop accusing me of "Owning" the article and Stop accusing me of being a "POV warrior". Both are unhelpful. I'm tired of asking you politely to be civil towards me and other editors. Wikidudeman 20:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

And we're getting tired of trying to explain the bleeding obvious to someone who refuses to listen, and merely parrots his own responses ad nauseum. And here we are. •Jim62sch• 20:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess WDM doesn't understand the word prima facie. You accuse me of accusing you of owning the article. The evidence is in this thread. You don't ever try to get a consensus, you just tell everyone they are wrong. That is the evidence, on the face of it, which makes me believe you would rather own the article than try to build consensus (and the exact reason why so many people opposed your RfA). You haven't learned why you were opposed. This article needs work, but accusing me of whatever, accusing others of being in league with me, or making accusations whatsoever is not a good trait. Many people have problems with the NPOV of this article. How about building it. But, accusations work too. BTW, never once called you a POV-warrior, because you aren't. You're just accepting their help, because you don't want any changes to the article. Sad, actually. OrangeMarlin 20:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm being exceedingly polite. You should hear what I'm saying about you to my computer screen. OrangeMarlin 20:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Give me 1 example of where I did not try to build consensus but rather told "everyone they were wrong". Wikidudeman 20:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

How about you read your various dismissals of every point raised to you by anyone other than Morrell? You so desperately want your various piss-ass sources to be valid that you absolutely refuse to listen to any criticism regarding their lack of validity. •Jim62sch• 20:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? If I think a source is valid and reliable then I will defend such beliefs to other editors. Nowhere in WP:OWN does it say that editors can't defend their beliefs...Wikidudeman 20:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

You know what, you're getting tendentious. Are you intentionally ignoring what I wrote above? I said this thread is prima facie evidence of your ownership--not building NPOV is just a consequence. OrangeMarlin 20:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem prima facie to me. I'm making a very simple request. If my behavior exhibited gives the impression that I "Own" the article then give 1 example of such behavior. You claim that I don't try to build consensus but rather "tell everyone they are wrong"? Well my simple request is that you give 1 single example of such behavior as it relates directly to this article (since we're talking about consensus building here). Can you give one single example? Wikidudeman 20:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Rawk! •Jim62sch• 20:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What? Wikidudeman 20:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, it does look to me as if there are some WP:OWN problems here. I have said the LEAD is too long maybe 20 times. Several others have said the same thing. And I and others were just told, over and over and over and over, to jump in the lake. This to me is a sign of a problem. However, there are many many many other problems here.

I also think the claim that homeopathy is not pseudoscience or pseudomedicine or whatever is the most amazingly outrageous statement I have seen in a while. What the heck??? On what basis can anyone make such a claim?--Filll 21:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fill, No one told you to "Jump into a lake". In response to your criticism that this lead is too long, I cited WP:LEAD. For an article of this size, a lead section of at least 3 paragraphs is needed to properly summarize it. Any smaller and it would leave out relevant material in the summary and would not be suitable. Discussions work on the basis that both individuals in the discussion respond to each other. Saying that the lead is too large and not responding to my rebuttal doesn't get us anywhere. You say the lead is too large. I respond in disagreement. You never respond back. You say the lead is too large again a few weeks later, I respond with the same disagreement. You never respond back. What am I left to do? I disagree with you and believe the lead is a good size. I've offered my reasons and you have never responded to them. I never told you to "Jump into a lake". I was NEVER dismissive of your criticism either. I simply said that I disagree and offered my reasons. You never responded back, not once. The Evolution lead is about the same size as this one. Is that one too large also?

As far as "Homeopathy" being a pseudoscience, Maybe it is by definition. Maybe it isn't. Both the idea that it is and isn't can be represented in the article coinciding with WP:Weight Wikidudeman 21:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It is so clearly pseudoscience that it hits nearly all of the points that define the issue. Yes, you do say jump in the lake, by intentionally or unintentionally ignoring comments. But remember, you have accused me, Jim, Filll, CO, and others of getting on your case. OrangeMarlin 21:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If I ignored comments then why do I reply to them? I can't both reply to comments and ignore them at the same time. Everytime Filll has brought up anything I have responded to it if I disagreed with it. See this for the example just recently. I disagree with his claim that the lead is too long. I do not ignore it, I respond to it directly and explain why I disagree with it. That's how wikipedia works. Please correct your assertion that I "ignore comments". Wikidudeman 21:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Back to ownership. And since when is it your responsibility to fix the lead? OrangeMarlin 21:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Since I started editing wikipedia. Wikidudeman 23:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Wikidudeman responded. To me and others. And basically told us we had no grounds to complain. And I disagreed, and others disagreed, but what are we supposed to do? Get into a big uncivil fight? I had already put many many hours into the article, and a good fraction of my efforts were flushed down the toilet when Wikidudeman showed up and "took over" the article. I did not want to bang my head on the wall, over and over, pointlessly or get into another fight. The article is improved in some ways for sure, but in other ways, it gives me pause. I have not looked at the evolution LEAD for a while, but if it has ballooned to the same size as this one with as much detail, it is too long and needs to be trimmed. I am not the only one who said this. Several others said it, with the same results. And to dispute the pseudoscience nature of this article is one of the most hilarioius ridiculous statements I have ever seen. That alone tells me that Wikidudeman might have to recuse himself from editing this article.--Filll 22:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, You're essentially putting words into my mouth. First you claim I told you to "Jump into a lake" when I said no such thing or anything even remotely like that and then you claim that I told you that you had "no grounds to complain"? That's totally false as well. If you want to discuss the lead then we can do that, however if you want to try to claim I said things that I didn't then that is another issue. Concerning the lead, Allow me to cite directly from WP:LEAD:

The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article. As a general guideline, the lead should be no longer than four paragraphs. The following suggestion may be useful:

This article is 78.2 KB long and has about 48,000 characters. Thus, Per WP:LEAD the lead needs to be about 3-4 paragraphs long to accurately summarize the article. I am disagreeing with you. I'm not dismissing you. I want you to reply and tell me why my reasoning for keeping the length of the lead is wrong and why it needs to be shortened. That's how discussions work. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you and take all disagreements personal then I can't help that. However if you propose something that I disagree with then I will explain that I disagree. You say that the alternative to sitting back and doing nothing is getting into a "big uncivil fight". Let me say that this is totally untrue. Wikidudeman 23:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If I was to try to change it, obviously this would be World War III, given your attitude I am afraid. At least that is my opinion. Sorry if you do not see it that way. I do not want to fight. It would take me mounting a massive offensive with maybe 20 or 30 friends and take weeks of time to change anything. If we are going to put that kind of effort in, we might as well do something more substantial than just change the LEAD. --Filll 00:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Haha, Firstly, I don't edit war. If you make an edit that I disagree with I firstly revert and alter the reversion in an attempt to create common ground. If that is reverted then I bring it to the talk page for discussion. If you fail to discuss it then I revert it again in a few days. I don't edit war. I've made numerous offers for you to explain your reasoning behind wanting the lead smaller and you've never done so. Secondly, You accuse me of WP:Own yet state that you could or would attempt to force consensus? Not only would that be a violation of WP:OWN, It would also be WP:CANVAS. Trying to get a large number of editors not previously part of the article to force a consensus in an attempt to have the article a way you want it would be Canvassing and would be a violation of the guideline. Wikidudeman 01:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You do not think there are 20 or 30 pro-science people that have edited this article and have an interest in it? Hmm...And I didn't say I was going to do that, only that that might be the only way to establish a consensus that was pro-science here and also might tighten up some more of the article, including the LEAD. However, it is just exhausting to go through these endless fights. I could go and prepare alternate leads in a sandbox and count the number of characters in your LEAD here and the extraneous material included in the LEAD that might be trimmed and compare it to a baseline of FA articles and their LEADs. However, I get tired of this. And this article is on a piece of quackery/pseudoscience.--Filll 02:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, Firstly, and again, Sending some sort of message out to people in an attempt to force consensus would be WP:CANVAS. Period.

Secondly, This lead is good. This lead got this article to GA status. This article has never been to GA status. Perhaps you're wrong about the lead and making it smaller would only hurt the article. Is that a possibility?

Thirdly, Truly improving Misplaced Pages is exhausting. It's not easy. If you want the easy way out and want me to simply agree to everything you say and never put up any arguments then that isn't going to happen. Sorry. You seem to interpret constructive discussion as "fighting".Wikidudeman 02:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but I would be careful about lecturing about canvassing if I were you. And I know what it would take to move things in a more balanced direction.--Filll 06:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, Firstly, I don't Canvass. Canvassing is sending messages in an attempt to shift consensus into your favor. When I send mass messages I send them to ALL major contributors of an article to alert them of a pending rewrite. Regardless of their views. That's not canvassing. There's a big difference.

Secondly, What would it take to get this article more balanced? I'm all for improving the article. However not via means of breaking policy or guidelines. I want to improve the article the right way. That means usually the hard way. Wikidudeman 12:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I fully expect to see "20 or 30 pro-science people" suddenly show up and start tag-team edit warring and high-five 3RR'ing, as usual. I'm simply blown away by the hypocrisy and bad faith I see exhibited here. WPD has made his point, and glaringly so. To the point of embarrassment for others, if they could only see it as observers do. This is a good article, well-balanced, with excellent NPOV information. WPD has done all he can to help bring it to that point, without "owning" it at any point in the process. There truly should be some red faces on the other side of those screens, but I doubt it's happening. It sure would be nice if, instead of throwing accusations and tantrums, editors would just resolve to work together to make a good article even better, and not just threatening to bring even more POV-warriors like themselves here to "take care of business." --profg 04:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but think I would be careful about making such accusations if I were you.--Filll 06:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

He's just bitter: those pro-science, anti-religion, commie-atheist-bleeding-heart-liberal-fascist types didn't vote properly.

As for the rest, that screed would be utterly devoid of value were it not for the fact that it clearly betrayed the alleged professor's very real and troubling anti-knowledge POV. Certainly were I to raise my children in such an environment I should be very red-faced indeed, but I'm sure that growling face on the other side of the screen isn't the least bit tinted.•Jim62sch• 22:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Relevant policy discussion here only please

At WP:MOS, it says that italics should be used sparingly for emphasis. I don't see any compelling reason why this sentence should be emphasized any more than any other sentence. If there is a compelling reason why, please provide here as I don't think Kenosis' argument above is compelling enough. -- Levine2112 20:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any reason either. Wikidudeman 20:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we'll await his answer, then. •Jim62sch• 20:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

RfC alert

I figure a number of editors here might be interested in this:

• Link to RfC at alternative medicine.

-- Fyslee / talk 19:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Help tag article

I am in the process of adding numerous new sources to the article and I thought I would ask everyone here to go through the article and add a "citation needed" tag to anything that they believe needs a citation so that I can add one. Please don't delete any information, simply add a tag and I will follow behind and add a reference for everything that has been tagged as needing a citation. Thank you. Wikidudeman 12:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Per your request, I started tagging statements that are not clearly supported by references. In addition, I found a problem with the reference given in one case:

The term "homeopathy" was coined by Hahnemann and first appeared in print in 1807, although he began outlining his theories of 'medical similars' in a series of articles and monographs in 1796.

Notes 28 and 29 do not support the statements in the sentence, they merely provide links to the publications mentioned. They do not support the statement that the term homeopathy first appeared in the 1807 publication or that Hahnemann began outlining his ideas earlier. Guettarda 14:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to fix that. Wikidudeman 14:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW - some of the things I tagged may be supported by a single paragraph-wide ref at the end of the para, but there's no way to tell without reading the ref. They may just look uncited. Guettarda 14:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

That's the case in some instances. I'm going through and making it easier to recognize. Wikidudeman 14:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment

Article has been listed at - Misplaced Pages:Good_article_reassessment#Homeopathy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I am proposing that this article be delisted according the following criteria:

1. It is well written. In this respect:

   (a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct; and

   I will agree that it mostly is.

   (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.

   Lead does not meet this standard.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:

   (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;

   No. References are all over the place.

   (b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and

   Improper sources are utilized, including unverified and unpublished sources, and sources that are used to quote other sources.

   (c) contains no original research.

   Mostly original research. Should be rewritten.

3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:

   (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; and

   Fine.

   (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).

   Fine

4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

   Violates WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOR. Vast majority of research articles published in peer-reviewed journals criticize Homeopathy. However, less than 1/3 of the words in the lead are written as criticism. The critical analysis of the field is placed at the end of the article. Undue weight is given to support of the field. Not enough information written about harming patients. Too much information written about regulation of Homeopathy, which infers acceptability. Pseudoscience tag has been removed.

5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.

   Constant reverting of NPOV material by owners of the article. Edit history shows the lack of stability and lack of consensus.

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. In this respect:

   (a) the images are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status; and

   (b) non-free images meet the criteria for fair use images and are labeled accordingly.

   Fine.

OrangeMarlin 16:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're just posting this to help improve the article then you're going to need to offer a LOT more details on what problems you see with NPOV, OR, etc. If you are actually trying to get the GA status reviewed then you need to bring it here: WP:GA/R so that other editors not involved can comment on how to improve it. Wikidudeman 16:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Any editor can revoke the GA status. I intend to do so unless my points are addressed. OrangeMarlin 16:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Explain in detail and give examples of how...

• The lead does not meet] guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation. Please offer detailed examples corresponding to the aforementioned guidelines.
• Explain what parts of the article contain no original research and be very specific including exact sentences and or sections.
• Explain in detail including giving examples of how it Violates WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOR.

Thanks. Wikidudeman 16:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Because you WP:OWN the article, you refuse to participate in any discussion. You do not gain consensus except with two (count them TWO) editors, one of whom is so pro Alternative stuff, you couldn't gain a consensus from as much as you could from me, and the second of whom is just out to pick a fight with anyone who disagrees with his Creationist babbling, and he knows the pro-science people edit these Alternative articles too. Your manner is of a "fuck off, I know better" attitude. I don't feel as though you spend a nanosecond engaging me or other editors in our issues with this article--you utilize a highly passive-aggressive style of argumentation. We criticize something and you take it personally, rather than building consensus. But you act as if you're trying, when all you do is defend yourself. If I were the only one with a tendentious attitude toward this article, your attitude might be acceptable. But the number of editors that have been frustrated with you and just give up is getting large. You refuse to answer any of our complaints and just attack us with a "I'm better than you and smarter than you" response. So, you do not rate my reply. I will let the GA and FA people help out. I'm delisting the article in a couple of days unless you address my complaints. The article is POV. Let me use the "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck" analogy. This is a duck. OrangeMarlin 16:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I've asked for examples of where I exhibit ownership of the article and you've failed to ever provide any. Let's try to keep on the topic of the content of the article then. You've made criticism of the article and I'm asking for detailed examples. You can't delist the article without providing examples of your complaints. I can't improve the article without examples. Wikidudeman 16:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I have some concerns as well. I certainly wonder about some parts, such as the level of detail in the LEAD. I also wonder that this article goes into such great detail about legal details around the world, and has such little description of the tests of homeopathy and its failures. I also think that the potencies should be described in greater detail as I outlined in the previous draft. However, I am not sure this belongs in this article, but it would be very valuable for the average reader to understand homeopathic remedies to have it available someplace on WP.

I think the LEAD should state very succinctly what homeopathy is, and the immediately state because of WP:UNDUE that it is basically quackery, and why. The average reader is not going to want to wade through a huge long description in the LEAD.--Filll 16:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that the lead should give more weight to criticism of homeopathy than to what homeopathy actually is? This article isn't titled "Criticism of Homeopathy" but rather simply "Homeopathy". This means that more detail should be given explaining what exactly homeopathy is and how it supposedly works than criticism of it. After all you can't criticize anything without explaining what it is. The part about legality is very important because not only does it blend into prevalence of use around the world, but also legality is relevant to the subject. It must be elaborated upon and if we do it with one country then we must be through in our coverage. Wikidudeman 17:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You know darn well I did not advocate this approach, of shoving everything in one article and then squeezing out all balancing material. This is a pseudoscience/quackery article, and to remove all that material or downplay it since there is now no room for it is just basically a bit of slight of hand. However, I think few pro-science editors are fooled.

By this argument, Intelligent design would just be a recruiting document for the Discovery Institute, and include no or minimal critical material, since one just has to "describe" it. However, the relevant point is that according to well over 99% of scientists, in the fields in which intelligent design purports to be valid, view intelligent design as pure crap. Homeopathy purports to be a form of medical treatment. Most scientists and allopathic medical practitioners in the relevant fields believe homeopathy is pure crap. Therefore, an article in an NPOV encyclopeida should present the majority view, just as is done in the case of intelligent design. --Filll 17:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, The previous situation was a large collection of a mess of articles that were impossible to navigate and contained redundant informatin, copied and pasted. Also, No one is saying that there is "No room" for anything. If you think something should be added then post what you think should be added so we can discuss it. I've never once claimed that criticism should be excluded because there was no room. I would support adding more information on various studies and their results. The current version basically summarizes the meta-analysis of the studies, however if you want to go into some more detail then we can do that as well. And again, Making it clear that the scientific consensus is that Homeopathy does not work does NOT MEAN that you have only that information. Right now the article does make it clear that Homeopathy is not supported by the mainstream science. Wikidudeman 17:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it should not be only material about the negative features of homeopathy. But by WP:UNDUE, the fraction of negative material must be roughly proportionate to the negative views in the mainstream. The intelligent design article is not only about the negative aspects of intelligent design, but contains substantial amounts of expository material as well. --Filll 17:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE means that more weight should not be given to the contention that Homeopathy works than to the contention that it does not work. The article does no such thing. WP:UNDUE doesn't mean that more weight should be given to the criticism of a topic than to what the topic is actually about. This article doesn't contain a single sentence adding to the idea that Homeopathy "works". It has a few sentences about Homeopathies contributions to modern science as far as experimental studies goes in the early 19th century but that's it. The vast majority of the commentary in this article about the efficacy of homeopathy is that it does not work. Other information such as philosophy and history have nothing to do with it's efficacy and thus can't be counted as weight in support of homeopathy. Wikidudeman 17:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment

The standard GAR procedure is to list the article at Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment and allow an independent editor who has not edited the article to assess it against the Good Article criteria. It is strongly discouraged for editors who have contributed to articles to act as reviewers in either the listing or delisting process. This poses an obvious conflict of interest. In response to Orangemarlin and Fill's concerns I have listed the article on the review page for a neutral review. Please add specific points of concern to this page. Tim Vickers 22:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Tim, I read the GAR procedure for reassessment, and it says to:

2. Leave a message on the article talk page detailing any remaining problems. If appropriate, add maintenance templates to the article.

3. Allow time for other editors to respond. If the article still does not meet the criteria, it can be delisted.

I was following procedure. I must have misunderstood the process. OrangeMarlin 00:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are quite correct about the rest of the process, but point (1) is the most important here, rather than points (2) or (3). Neither you, I nor anybody else involved in writing this article should become involved as reviewers in the GA process. However, while we can't make impartial judgements on this, specific and detailed comments on the GAR page are welcome from anybody. Tim Vickers 01:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I thought, and I could be incorrect, that WP:GAR says to try to fix things at the article and talk page before requests reassessment. That's what I thought I was doing. I didn't think I had to list it at GAR until I, as an editor, became dissatisfied with the results. That's all. OrangeMarlin 01:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, everything seems to be moving along properly right now. Just for future reference, fixing problems in an article yourself is encouraged, but certainly not mandatory. Homestarmy 01:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Orange, There would have never even have been a need for a GA review if you would be more specific in your criticism. You make it impossible to improve the article due to your vague criticisms and failure to provide detailed examples. I would appreciate everyone to constructively criticize the article so that it can be improved accordingly, however simply saying it's "POV" or It contains "Original research" without providing a single example is very unhelpful. Wikidudeman 13:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this is true WDM. However, you have to learn to read the signals that others have sent to you for months now. Just pounding ahead over the objections of other seasoned editors is not the best policy.--Filll 13:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to attempt to read subtle signals from other editors. If you see a problem with the article then elaborate on it, give details and examples, then let us discuss it. Otherwise there's nothing that I can really do. I want to improve the article as much as possible. You've brought up the lead, I disagree with you on that. If you want to trim down the lead a little bit then let's figure out a way that we can accurately get a consensus on it. Here, You can edit this lead here on a subpage of my userpage:User:Wikidudeman/leaddraft. I won't edit that page at all. You can make edits to it until you're satisfied with how the lead should look and then I can look at the differences and see what has changed and then add comments so that we can get to an agreement on how the lead should be. I think this is a good way to do it as it avoids unnecessary reverts and edits to the actual article until we have an agreement. Tell me what you think. Wikidudeman 13:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I've given specifics before. I'm tired of your actions, but please go ahead with your holier than thou attitude. There are so many diffs to use against you in your next attempt at RfA, it will be amusing. OrangeMarlin 14:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well let's start with the Diffs where you gave specific examples of the problems with the article. Thanks. Wikidudeman 14:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Your Passive aggressive baiting of me won't work. How about dealing with one issue--the leads gives too much weight to Homeopathy. The bulk of words should attack this pseudoscience. There. OrangeMarlin 14:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

So you're essentially saying that the lead give more weight to criticism of homeopathy than explanation of what homeopathy actually is? Please explain your reasoning behind this. WP:WEIGHT doesn't mean that an article need give more weight to criticism of a subject than to an explanation of the subject itself, It means that it shouldn't give more weight to the idea that the Homeopathy works than to the idea it doesn't. This article gives ZERO weight to the idea that homeopathy works at this point. Wikidudeman 14:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

We're starting over again here. No, that's not what I desire with respect to undue weight. But in describing the various isms (I'm not even sure how to categorize it), it does appear that this area has a wealth of valid research--that's the impression I get. So, I disagree. It does read like homeopathy works. I guess that's where I find a difference between how I read the article and how you do, and why I keep accusing you of ownership. Maybe it's not ownership as it is that it's hard to read one's own writing from a neutral POV--you might think you know what you were saying, but the casual reader does not. I'm trying to make myself clearer here. OrangeMarlin 18:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said below, this seems mainly a problem in the history sections, where it's also the most understandable, and, perhaps, hardest to fix. Adam Cuerden 18:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I made a start at doing this by moving some material on the history of skeptical thought on homeopathy into the history section. Tim Vickers 17:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you support it staying a Good Article, Tim? If so please add your support or comments at the reassessment. Thanks. Wikidudeman 17:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts on this article

(Copied from the GA review)

In the context of alternative medicine articles, almost all of which are simply awful, homeopathy stands as a rare example of an article that actually attempts to do it well.

Is it perfect? No. It's awkward in a couple points, and, yes, it wouldn't be unreasonable to be a bit more critical here and there. Could it be better? Yes. But it deserves more praise than it's getting from people who haven't participated in the process, and don't know what a long haul it is.

Does it violate WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:FRINGE? When Wikidudeman asked me, I said "Technically, yes". But that, perhaps, is not nuanced enough for here.

Homeopathy violates basic principles of science, and so comes under the guidelines for pseudoscience and fringe views. The article does contain a fair bit of justified criticism - while describing miasms, and dilution and succussion, we do break to mention the problems with these ideas. Is it criticised enough? No, some of the criticism - notably of the high dilutions - is not particularly well-written, and more criticism of other homeopathic concepts wouldn't be inappropriate. The section on "Concepts", and, to a lesser extent, the other history sections, are probably the worst offenders: Hahnemann's ideas are presented as if they were true, and criticism is absent. This is a fairly easy trap to slip into when writing about how someone came about their views when your primary reference is their writings. But it's still not good.

Again, however, I'd like to point out that it's better, in this respect, than pretty much any other alternative medicine article. If we want to make it better, we are going to have to be willing and ready to get some people very, very angry at us.

As for the sources... Well, Hahnemann's writings are fairly omnipresent, but given alternative medicine and other fringe theories' well-documented resistance to change, this isn't as bad as it might sound. The sources could definitely use a little clean-up, formatting of sources is inconsistent, and source 35, "The Naturopathic School. NCNM. Retrieved on 2007-09-13." does not really support its sentence. Source 128, "Homeopathy in Malaysia. Whole Health Now Homeopathy. Retrieved on 2007-09-25." - is probably not reliable enough for what it's used for.

Should it be GA? Well, if compared to other alternative medicine articles, perhaps yes. On objective standards, perhaps no. In any case, let's not downplay the achievement of getting it this far. Alternative medicine articles are an uphill battle that Misplaced Pages has only just started to fight. Attacking the people that began the struggle is inappropriate. Adam Cuerden 18:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well written. But, if we can make Intelligent design work, this should be easier. But I could be in denial. OrangeMarlin 18:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello - I saw this on the FTN. I've changed around one section (5.1) which seemed awkwardly worded. Still, it certainly looks like a good startthis article looks good, especially compared with some of the other alternative medicine articles. Hal peridol 02:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I also think the Homeopathy article is well done. Maybe wordier than necessary. Here are a few specifics where I think it could be improved.

1) I think I can guess the meaning of "vehicle" in paragraph 2, but I should not have to.

2) I think the sentence starting “Although the ideas of homeopathy no longer form part of mainstream science...” is too long.

3) QUOTING: "It should be noted however that not all homeopaths advocated extremely high potencies. Many of the early homeopaths were originally doctors and generally tended to use lower potencies such as "3x" or "6x", rarely going beyond "12x". A good example of this approach is that of Dr. Richard Hughes, who dismissed the extremely high potencies as unnecessary. This was the dominant pattern in Europe throughout the 1820s to 1930s, but in America many practitioners developed and preferred the higher dilutions. This trend became especially exemplified by James Tyler Kent and dominated US homeopathy from the 1850s until its demise in the 1940s."

There are a bunch of vague references in these sentences. It is not clear if “This was the dominant” refers to high potency or low. Also: “this trend” refers to what? Finally, does its demise mean demise of homeopathy or demise of “this trend”?

4) “The first symptomatic index of the homeopathic materia medica was arranged by Hahnemann. Soon after, one of his students Clemens von Bönninghausen, created the Therapautic Pocket Book, another homeopathic repertory. The first such Homeopathic Repertory was Dr. George Jahr's Repertory, published in 1835 in German and then again in 1838 in English and edited by Dr. Constantine Hering. This version was less focused on disease categories and would be the forerunner to Kent's later works. It consisted of three large volumes. Such Repertories increased in size and detail as time progressed.”

It would be less confusing if the first Homeopathic Repertory was mentioned first.

5) The paragraph “Medical and scientific analysis” and the next one “higher dilutions” say the same thing in part.

I believe that the first paragraph is kind of a summary. I didn't think it was too repetitive. OrangeMarlin 03:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC) - I'll read it again. Wanderer57

6) The editors of the Canada and Mexico articles will be surprised to find they are now part of Australia. Wanderer57 02:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You obviously weren't keeping up with the news. Australia invaded Canada last week. They defended themselves with hockey sticks, but alas, it was quick. It was so quick you might have missed it. OrangeMarlin 03:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC) - I gotta get away from the computer more. Wanderer57

Just Wondering

"As well, since water will has been in contact with millions of different substances through its history, critics point out that any glass of water is therefore an extreme dilution of almost any conceivable substance, and so by drinking water one would, according to homeopathic principles, receive treatment for every imaginable condition."

This quote from the article brings to mind a question. The prior history of the water used in dilution seems to be relevant. Where do homeopaths obtain water to use in the dilution and succussion process?

(Likewise for any other liquid used for dilution.)

I don't see an answer to this in the article. Wanderer57 13:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It's an excellent question. If you don't get an answer here, you might try over at the Reference Desk. Cheers, TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer is that this is pseudoscience, and pseudoscience ignores minor issues that are logical problems with the theory. In real science, that would be an issue that would probably blow the whole theory out of the water...pun intended. OrangeMarlin —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer is that potenziation is more than dilution. The dilution must be interspersed with succussion (roughly, shaking). (That's the answer, but then you can ask what the difference is between a waterfall and a potenziation machine that runs continuously. Sooner or later you still hit the pseudoscience.) --Art Carlson 19:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

This is why Heinz instructs you to shake the bottle before use. Otherwise you would get unpotentized ketchup, which tastes quite different. Tim Vickers 20:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If I had only known. Now, precisely how many shakes does it take? I want to make sure I get the best flavor. OrangeMarlin 21:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Art. I wonder if the turbulence that water encounters going through a pump in a water treatment plant is strong enough to cause succussion.

I am not sure everyone is treating this subject with the gravity it deserves. Wanderer57 22:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we are giving it precisely the gravity it deserves. OrangeMarlin 00:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources Interpretation and counter critisism.

Here are some fragments from the cited references and its interpretation in the article. Everybody could draw his/her own conclusions.

Article’s interpretation. 1. More recent controlled clinical trials on homeopathy have shown poor results, showing a slight to no difference between homeopathic remedies and placebo.

Cited reference

a b c Questions and Answers About Homeopathy. National Institutes of Health. This section summarizes results from (1) individual clinical trials (research studies in people) and (2) broad analyses of groups of clinical trials. The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory. In some trials, homeopathy appeared to be no more helpful than a placebo; in other studies, some benefits were seen that the researchers believed were greater than one would expect from a placebo.f Appendix I details findings from clinical trials. Systematic reviews and meta-analyses take a broader look at collections of a set of results from clinical trials.g Recent examples of these types of analyses are detailed in Appendix II. In sum, systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven treatment for any medical condition. Two groups of authors listed in Appendix II found some positive evidence in the groups of studies they examined, and they did not find this evidence to be explainable completely as placebo effects (a third group found 1 out of 16 trials to have some added effect relative to placebo). Each author or group of authors criticized the quality of evidence in the studies. Examples of problems they noted include weaknesses in design and/or reporting, choice of measuring techniques, small numbers of participants, and difficulties in replicating results. A common theme in the reviews of homeopathy trials is that because of these problems and others, it is difficult or impossible to draw firm conclusions about whether homeopathy is effective for any single clinical condition.

Article interpretation. 2. Early meta-analyses investigating homeopathic remedies showed slightly positive results among the studies examined, however such studies have warned that it was impossible to draw conclusions due to low methodological quality and the unknown role of publication bias in the studies reviewed.

The medical effectiveness of homeopathy has been studied in detail since at least the 1980s. All large studies showing homeopathy to be effective for medical purposes have been methodologically flawed, and earlier studies showing positive results have been questioned.

Cited reference (pay attention to the added adjective and the omitted sentence at the end.)

Clinical trials of homoeopathy.Kleijnen J, Knipschild P, ter Riet G.Department of Epidemiology and Health Care Research, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands. RESULTS--In 14 trials some form of classical homoeopathy was tested and in 58 trials the same single homoeopathic treatment was given to patients with comparable conventional diagnosis. Combinations of several homoeopathic treatments were tested in 26 trials; isopathy was tested in nine trials. Most trials seemed to be of very low quality, but there were many exceptions. The results showed a positive trend regardless of the quality of the trial or the variety of homeopathy used. Overall, of the 105 trials with interpretable results, 81 trials indicated positive results whereas in 24 trials no positive effects of homoeopathy were found. The results of the review may be complicated by publication bias, especially in such a controversial subject as homeopathy. CONCLUSIONS--At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homeopathy, but only by means of well-performed trials.

3. Article

In 2005 The Lancet medical journal published a meta-analysis of 110 placebo-controlled homeopathy trials and 110 matched conventional-medicine trials based upon the Swiss government's Program for Evaluating Complementary Medicine, or PEK. The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects.

Is the following criticism included in the article?

“The report published in the Lancet on homeopathy on 26 August has been questioned by the Faculty of Homeopathy - the professional body that brings together GPs and hospital doctors who also practice homeopathy. Dr Peter Fisher, Clinical Director of the Royal Homeopathic Hospital, London said: "Having read this report, the figures do not stack up. The much-trumpeted conclusion about homeopathy being only a placebo is based on not 110 clinical trials, but just eight. My suspicion is that this report is being selective to try to discredit homeopathy." --Sm565 18:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You want me to add in the fact that the lancet analysis isn't without it's own criticism? Wikidudeman 14:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes thank you. I think it needs some more weight - almost similar to the Lancet statement. You could use that (I think) Dr Peter Fisher, Clinical Director of the Royal Homeopathic Hospital argued that this report is being selective to try to discredit homeopathy." citing the article. Something like that. --Sm565 17:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

3 questions.

1.I think that both negative and positive trials on Homeopathy’s effectiveness should be included. . At this point only negative trials are included which are not all metanalyses and some editors refuse to add the positive ones. Is this a NPOV?

In my opinion it is a violation of NPOV. I have attempted to add double blind placebo controlled studies with the hope that any criticisms which tend to debunk them would also be provided as appropriate. The omission of these studies altogether is pure suppression and indefensible. Whig 04:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

2.Of the three meta analyses one is heavily criticized for being selective and the interpretation of the other is problematic (see above). The other are negative trials. Shouldn’t the editors remove them for the sake of consistency (if they don’t want to add the positives )keeping only the metaanalysis?

(It was Tim Vicker's suggestion which I dont find it ideal "My personal viewpoint is that if experts have assessed the literature in a review or meta-analysis then summarising the results of such reviews is a better way of approaching controversial subjects than simply picking a set of positive and negative trials ourselves".

3.Homeopathy’s objections to the placebo randomized trials method (as not always be the best tool for testing homeopathy) should be included, briefly and sufficiently explained and -of course- strictly criticized using the mainstream scientific criteria. Isn't it inappropriate to exclude this important homeopathic view and its appropriate criticism (by the mainstream science) from an encyclopedia article on Homeopathy? --Sm565 18:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments on sm565 questions

Could someone please explain what this means: "The other negative trials are original research." (quote from point #2 above.) Thanks. Wanderer57 19:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I wanted to say positive and negative trials. --Sm565 19:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

1. All relevant trials should be mentioned regardless of their findings.

2. I'm not sure what this question is asking.

3. We've discussed this before. If Homeopaths criticize placebo controlled trials then there at least has to be some sort of reasoning behind this or else it can't be added. We can't simply say "Though it should be mentioned that homeopaths object to the validity of placebo randomized trials" without adding in "because...".Wikidudeman 14:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy in Canada

I separated out Canada and Mexico from Australia. That change lasted about six minutes till they were merged again

After separating out the part on Canada, and before it was merged again, I read it more carefully. Ugh! Here is the beginning of the Canada piece for reference:

"In Canada, a study detailing the use of alternative medicines by children in Quebec found that 11 % of the sample of 1911 children used alternative medicines and 25 % of those who did use alternative medicines used homeopathy. The study also pointed out that homeopathy is more commonly used in children in Canada than in adults, 19 % of whom used alternative medicine used homeopathy."

Questions relating to this:

1) The statistics compare children in Quebec to adults in Canada; which used to be called comparing apples and oranges. Also, the percentage of adults who use "alternative medicines" is not given. Is the conclusion that homeopathy is more commonly used in children than in adults warranted? Can any useful conclusion be taken from these statistics?

Doesn't matter. It's just there to show approximately how many people in Canada use homeopathy. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Terminology:

2) Is homeopathy an alternative medicine OR alternative therapy OR some other term?

There is medicine and there's...something else. There's no alternative medicine. Best term is quackery or pseudoscience, but that's used in the article. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion. In Misplaced Pages, there is such a thing as alternative medicine. Whig 05:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the most widely understood meaning of "medicine" is "a substance or preparation used in treating disease", as in "that medicine tastes awful" or "if you take your medicine without kicking daddy, I will give you a candy". To someone with this understanding, I think "alternative medicine" is liable to be confusing. Wanderer57 19:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's absurd, Wanderer. Whig 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

3) Which is better? Homeopathy is used in children OR on children OR by children?

4) Is homeopathy used in/on/by children, OR is it practised on children? "Used" suggests a decision to use was made by the children.

The sentence structure needs work, but I wonder first if there is any point to keeping this stuff.

(1911 was coded 1911. An interesting link, which I removed.)

Apparently you should read WP:MOS. Linking dates is appropriate. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Except in this case, 1911 is the number of children. It is a fig., not a date. Wanderer57

Finally, the article switches between Homeopathy and homeopathy. Let's pick one. Feedback please. Wanderer57 00:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to your question. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It's just a noun so should be in lower case. The article on drugs doesn't call them "Drugs" in the middle of sentences. Tim Vickers 00:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources Interpretation #2

Article states:

Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial for ….. dementia,[6

Source says: McCarney R, Warner J, Fisher P, Van Haselen R (2003). "Homeopathy for dementia". Cochrane database of systematic reviews (Online) (1): CD003803

REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: In view of the absence of evidence it is not possible to comment on the use of homeopathy in treating dementia. The extent of homeopathic prescribing for people with dementia is not clear and so it is difficult to comment on the importance of conducting trials in this area.

I think that this is a mistake since the source does not really support its sentence.

So I will edit it, I m thinking of removing the word dementia for now. Any objections? Best to all. --Sm565 03:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"absence of evidence" => "found no evidence". Sounds like an accurate paraphrase to me. --Art Carlson 07:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Art Carlson is right. The McCarney et al. found no evidence that supports the contention that homeopathy helps dementia, thus this is the same thing as "absence of evidence". An absence of something means that something isn't there. It wasn't found. This doesn't mean that Homeopathy doesn't help dementia, It just means that the studies found no evidence that it does. Which is what the article says. Wikidudeman 14:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

How does the phrase it is not possible to comment not exclude the study from being used either as positive or as negative?

They concluded MAIN RESULTS: There were no studies that fulfilled the criteria for inclusion and no data to present REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS:In view of the absence of evidence it is not possible to comment on the use of homeopathy in treating dementia.

Using only "Found no evidence" implies that one looks into data for something but one finds no evidence in this data to support or not the hyphothesis ( that homeopathy works for example ). They state "No data to present " which means they have nothing to look into so their final statement is "It is not possible to comment". How can they make it more clear? Best. --Sm565 15:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that we should change the wording to read "Evidence was found that homeopathy is not beneficial" for the other conditions listed? --Art Carlson 16:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course. if you make sure that the study states that.I think we should be precise and report exactly what the studies say.But I think at this point no data means - no comment ( which is what they state ) --Sm565 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think there is no other objection and we agree.--Sm565 18:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

My two cents

Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek, ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a form of alternative medicine with metaphysical underpinnings, first elaborated in the eighteenth century, widely popular in the nineteenth century, decreasingly popular in the twentieth century, and still maintaining a following today, though among just a small minority. It has been widely and vigorously criticized by scientists as baseless and ineffective.

Homeopathy is based on a vitalist philosophy, which sees the underlying causes of sickness as imbalances in a hypothetical vital force. The remedies are formulated to "treat like with like": substances are chosen which, in large quantities, would cause symptoms similar to those of a presenting illness, but are then administered in extremely diluted form. In fact, in many common homeopathic dilutions no molecules of the original substance are likely to remain, a fact which is central to criticism of the tradition by physical and biological scientists.

Homeopathy was first conceived in the late 18th century by German physician Samuel Hahnemann, who noted some similarity of the symptoms created by giving undiluted cinchona bark extract to healthy individuals, to those of malaria (which the bark was conventionally used to treat). Hahnemann concluded that, to be effective, a drug must produce the same sorts of symptoms in healthy individuals as those experienced by the patient with the illness that the drug is supposed to treat. From this reasoning, a series of substances were selected whose administration created symptoms in patients similar to those they were suffering from. The original substance is then repeatedly diluted, and, at each stage of the dilution, the solution is shaken. Finished homeopathic remedies contain few or even no molecules of the original substance, but homeopaths contend that the shaking causes an imprint (or "memory") of the diluted substance upon the vehicle (the diluting water or alcohol itself). Proponents of homeopathy claim that homeopathic treatments can harmonize and re-balance a theorized vital force in the body, thus restoring health.

Claims for the medical efficacy of homeopathic treatments, however, have been roundly rejected as unsupported by the collected weight of scientific and clinical studies. Homeopathic philosophy has been characterized as strikingly at odds with the laws of chemistry and physics, since it postulates that extreme dilution actually makes drugs more powerful (by enhancing, homeopaths believe, their "spirit-like medicinal powers"). Scientists have asserted that there is no evidence of water or alcohol retaining any sort of imprint of a substance that was once dissolved in it, and that any positive effects of homeopathic treatments must be due simply to the placebo effect. Furthermore, some health advocates have accused homeopathic practitioners of giving false hope to patients who might otherwise seek conventional treatments that have withstood testing by the scientific method. Many have pointed to meta-analyses which — they contend — confirm the fact that any benefits of the medicine are due to the placebo effect; they have criticized apparently positive studies of homeopathy as being flawed in design. These findings, they say — along with the common practice of homeopaths to proscribe their patients from receiving conventional medical treatments for a given malady while being treated for it with homeopathy — argue for labeling homeopathy as a brand of quackery whose use might ultimately even endanger the patient's health.

Friarslantern 20:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a straw man description of homeopathy. Whig 20:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Explain! This statement makes no sense to me. Friarslantern 21:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• The paragraphs are too short and I see no reason for their formulation. Why is the first one split from the second one?
• The "widely popular in the nineteenth century, decreasingly popular in the twentieth century, and still maintaining a following today" part doesn't read like an encyclopedia. It's part of the first sentence which is way too long.
• The entire lead is difficult to read. If I didn't understand what Homeopathy was then I would probably not know much more after reading that lead.
• Many of the statements aren't referenced. Due to the conflicts, everything must be properly referenced.
• Not many people are actually disputing the lead except until just recently and I don't see how this formulation would solve those specific disputes. Wikidudeman 23:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This LEAD is much much too long and has way too much detail. I also think it does not succinctly describe the main points. --Filll 23:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

OK here is a new version of it. Short, I think, and to the point, and neutral. I'm working on it at User:Friarslantern/HomeoIntroDraft.

Friarslantern 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I like this version much better. It seems to be fair. I am still reading about homeopathy in order to better understand it, so I cannot vouch for its accuracy in all parts. Whig 08:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Two bad edits?

Adam – rather than just label an edit as a “bad edit”, please explain what you see as wrong with the edit which added the bolded words to this sentence in the first paragraph?

“Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, in hopes of stimulating the body to respond and remove the symptom.”

To me, the last part is helpful as it summarizes the chief point of doing homeopathy.

I’m quite prepared to listen to suggestions of a better way to word it, but I think the intention was sound. Wanderer57 21:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

These two edits were bad for a number of reasons, which I described in my edit summary. The "stimulating the body to respond" sentence is textbook original research. Homeopathy denies any sort of germ theory in that it does not allow for external forces to produce disease in a healthy individual. Only a "disturbance" in the "vital energy" of a patient can produce adverse symptoms. There is simply no room in homeopathic theory for any sort of physiological response. Leaving aside the fact that this assertion was added with absolutely no reference or discussion of a "stimulated response" in the rest of the article, this is a baldfaced attempt to legitimize the topic by vaguely associating it with a vaccine-type mechanism.

The second edit is also unacceptable because it obfuscates the lead argument that a sufficiently diluted solution cannot contain any of the original molecule, and ignores the fact that homeopathic solutions that are not diluted out of existence don't work either. Cheers, Skinwalker 21:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker is totally right. The idea that Homeopathic remedies cause the body to "respond to a symptom" to remove it from the body would suggest some sort of outside agent inflicting itself upon the body which is contrary to homeopathic philosophy. As Skinwalker mentioned, Homeopaths see sickness as disturbances of some "vital energy" which causes symptoms. Homeopaths prescribe small doses of substance that cause similar side effects in hopes of "canceling out" the symptoms and getting rid of the disturbance. Wikidudeman 23:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both for the feedback. I am concerned with the first of the two edits Skinwalker mentioned, which (for reference) is about the sentence:

“Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, in hopes of stimulating the body to respond and remove the symptom.”

My edit was to add the words “in hopes of......remove the symptom”, (borrowed from a previous editor) and to make the next sentence, which talks about the early history of the subject, the start of a new paragraph.

This sentence says what (we think) a homeopathist does without indicating what the purpose is. This is incomplete information. If, as you say, “in hopes of stimulating the body to respond and remove the symptom” is technically wrong, (and I’m in no position to argue the point), how should the sentence be completed?

“Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, in order to_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.”

I think, in fairness, an indication of the intent is needed here (even though some editors may consider the whole enterprise fruitless or even fraudulent.)

Since the following sentence talks about the early history of the subject, it does not answer the question of the intent. Wanderer57 23:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Skinwalker is not correct. Homeopathy "does not allow for external forces to produce disease in a healthy individual" is entirely false. From the Organon, Section 64:

During the primary action of the artificial morbific agents (medicines) on our healthy body, as seen in the following examples, our vital force seems to conduct itself merely in a passive (receptive) manners, and appears, so to say, compelled to permit the impressions of the artificial power acting from without to take place in it and thereby its state of health; it then, however, appears to rouse itself again, as it were, and to develop (A) the exact opposite condition of health (counteraction, secondary action ) to this effect (primary action) produced upon it, if there be such an opposite, and that in as great a degree as was the effect (primary action) of the artificial morbific agent on it, and proportionate to its own energy; - or (B) if there be not in nature a state exactly the opposite of the primary action, it appears to endeavor to indifferentiate itself, that is, to make its superior power available in the extinction of the change wrought in it from without (by the medicine), in the place of which it substitutes its normal state (secondary action, curative action).

Whig 01:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

As to the second edit he removed, his claim that the small amount of substance in a homeopathic dose causes it to be ineffective does not mitigate the fact that a small amount of substance is present in dilution or trituration. Currently, the article imagines that the substance must magically vanish due to dilution, that is a violation of the laws of physics. Whig 01:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

At the highest dilutions, there's a ridiculously miniscule chance that a molecule remains, because it's been diluted so far. You'd have to drink a sphere the size of the solar system to have a reasonable chance of getting just one molecule. This is because there are only a certain number of molecules in the original preparation. Adam Cuerden 02:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That may as well be true at highest dilutions which could be arbitrarily large, of course. Nothing in dilution or trituration would cause the substance to be molecularly or atomically taken apart, at any rate, but we can surely say that if a substance is divided over 30C there are still likely to be a very small number of particles of the original substance in a dose. Whig 02:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

30C is 1 in 10^60. We can estimate the number of original atoms using Avogado's constant, which tells us there are 6.022 x 10^23 atoms in a mole of substance. A mole of a substance has a weight measured in grams (the number of grams is based on its molecular weight, and hus can't be less than 1). Even if we presume that we start with a kilogram of the substance - that's less, perhaps substantially less, than a thousand moles - there is still less than a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that a single molecule remains in a litre of the original. Any dilution greater than about 1 in 10^24 has this problem. Adam Cuerden 05:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Accepting your math for the moment, what dilution would 10^24 correspond to? Is 6C still too dilute? Whig 06:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

About 12C, though the maths vary a bit depending on the amount in the original, and how much of the final remedy is actually taken. Given the size of homeopathic pills, I suspect that it'd actually be a little lower - 10C or so. However, remember, this is for there being a statistical likelihood of one molecule being present. If we're looking for, say, a part per billion - which is about the minimum limit of what could actually be detected - that's at most 4.5C. Adam Cuerden 07:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

So we must express very clearly that in a 6C potency (which is a common homeopathic dose) there is clearly some small quantity of the original substance. It has not disappeared regardless of its detectability with your equipment at that concentration, because you know that physics won't allow it to have vanished. Whig 08:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, we don't. It says "at many common homeopathic dilutions". That's a true description, and your random quibbles can be ruthlessly ignored as the POV-pushing OR they are. Adam Cuerden 16:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

And I have never heard of a modern homeopath that denies the germ theory of disease. What a straw man. Whig 01:49, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

George Vithoulkas. As cited and referenced in the article. Adam Cuerden 02:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The article says he thought the antibiotic treatment of syphilis would cause secondary and tertiary problems. Nowhere does it say he denies the germ theory of disease, but perhaps he has done so. You have failed to make a valid citation. Whig 02:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying. Tell me what you think of the clarification I just added. Wikidudeman 23:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

References interpretation #3

Article states:

Systematic reviews conducted by other researchers found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial for osteoarthritis,

Source says:

The authors conclude that the small number of randomized clinical trials conducted to date, although favoring homeopathic treatment, do not allow a firm conclusion as to the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies in the treatment of patients with osteoarthritis. The clinical evidence appears promising, however, and more research into this area seems warranted.

So the article should state the exacts findings:

Studies have shown that although favoring homeopathic treatment, the study does not allow a firm conclusion as to the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies in the treatment of patients with osteoarthritis. The clinical evidence appears promising, however, and more research into this area seems warranted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sm565 (talk • contribs) 05:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Article states: Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial for asthma,

Reference:

RESULTS: Six trials with a total of 556 people were included. These trials were all placebo-controlled and double-blind, but of variable quality. They used different homeopathic treatments which precluded quantitative pooling of results for the primary outcome. Standardised treatments in these trials are unlikely to represent common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised. No trial reported a significant difference on validated symptom scales. There were conflicting results in terms of lung function between the studies. There has been only a limited attempt to measure a 'package of care' effect (i.e., the effect of the medication as well as the consultation, which is considered a vital part of individualised homeopathic practice). REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: There is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma. As well as randomised trials, there is a need for observational data to document the different methods of homeopathic prescribing and how patients respond. This will help to establish to what extent people respond to a 'package of care' rather than the homeopathic intervention alone.

They clearly say that they could not actualy test the homeopathic idea. To do so they need observational data and well designed studies. Therefore they concluded that there is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma.

I m almost certain everybody agrees that the sentece in the article should reflect exaclty this.Objections? Best wishes to all.--Sm565 06:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh, let's just cut the damn thing. Adam Cuerden 16:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Molecules

Much of the above talk about straw man germ theory and dilutions is theoretical nonsense. Nobody knows what matter is or what happens when something is diluted. Hahnemann and his followers believed he had hit upon a genuine new discovery about matter in solution. Who is really to deny this? Chemistry and the molecular theory is merely a model of how matter seems to behave; we do not know all the answers and to claim we do is dishonest. Maybe some molecules do remain at 30c who knows? To deny this is to assume that the avogadro limit is absolute when in reality it is merely an average. On average no molecules remain after 10 -23 but in reality nobody knows. Nor does anybody know what the shaking does. Violent shaking of the solution is certainly regarded by homeopaths as crucial to the potentiation process. Regarding germ theory homeopaths may or may not acceopt the theory but what is clear is that they regard the cause of disease as an internal matter within the organism and no external agent is regarded as that powerful except insofar as it can impact internally upon the vital force. Kent said forget the bacteria and fix the vital force. It says it all. The vital force is the key concept in homeopathic philsosophy because it 'explains' so much about how these remedies work and also how folks behave when treated for sickness and how they respond to the remedies. Most of the folks here have never used homeopathy, are not medically trained, know little about close observation of the human subject in sickness and cure so how can they say either way? These issues can only be fully explained when you have a degree of experience in such matters. Being a very sceptical 'spectator' to these matters does not really allow one to fully understand how it all works. Unless you engage with the subject then how can you udnerstand it? That goes for any subject. Scoffing and being full of disbelief wanting desperately to disprove something ...well how can these attitudes allow an unbiased understanding to occur? Same goes for anything alien to our usual understanding. However, there are issues about efficacy and trials but hopefully new trials will be better devised and reveal more interesting outcomes. just a few thoughts thanks Peter morrell 06:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Peter, I think you have a similar perspective to my own, which I would call zetetic. I am currently reading the Organon in order to understand the idea behind homeopathy as expressed by its original detailer. Currently I am up to Section 100, which says (in reference to those who claim that "homeopathy rejects the germ theory of disease"):

In investigating the totality of the symptoms of epidemic and sporadic diseases it is quite immaterial whether or not something similar has ever appeared in the world before under the same or any other name. The novelty or peculiarity of a disease of that kind makes no difference either in the mode of examining or of treating it, as the physician must any way regard to pure picture of every prevailing disease as if it were something new and unknown, and investigate it thoroughly for itself, if he desire to practice medicine in a real and radical manner, never substituting conjecture for actual observation, never taking for granted that the case of disease before him is already wholly or partially known, but always carefully examining it in all its phases; and this mode of procedure is all the more requisite in such cases, as a careful examination will show that every prevailing disease is in many respects a phenomenon of a unique character, differing vastly from all previous epidemics, to which certain names have been falsely applied - with the exception of those epidemics resulting from a contagious principle that always remains the same, such as smallpox, measles, etc.

Clearly the science of modern microbiology did not exist when he was writing, but he accepted contagion. Why are people spreading disinformation about homeopathy? Whig 07:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow. These rants are a little uncalled for. If you investigated, you would find several PhDs and MDs among the other editors here. We have experts in statistical analysis of data. We have mathematicians. Several others have used homeopathic remedies, myself included.

And there is a phenomenal volume of evidence for the "molecular theory" and the "germ theory". We have even imaged atoms.

I dispute just about everything written above. I could go through it point by point, but this might add to the trouble here. Please, try to not engage in this kind of grandstanding and vioation of WP:SOAP.--Filll 14:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You can dispute whatever you like and who really cares what folks like you think of it from your theory armchairs. Manifestly, you don't know much about homoepathy that is plain to see for all the endless talk on these talk pages...MDs PhDs so what? utterly irrelevant to the field of experience and true empiricism in which homeopathy exists. You just demonstrated the vastness of your ignorance, Filll. Grandstanding? are you serious? for goodness sake what utter nonsense. Peter morrell 14:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter I would remind you of how close you have come repeatedly to being banned and blocked here for uncivil behavior. It is only because of your special knowledge that you were even permitted to be in Misplaced Pages, frankly. So please try to restrain yourself.--Filll 15:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

OK sorry if it seemed I was growling at you Filll, it was in fact a mere squeak. Talking of uncivil behaviour of course reminds me to say that there are abroad in WP far worse offenders than I, mostly on your side of the fence, who seem to 'get away with it' unpunished on a daily basis and with everyone they choose to hurl it at. Pot calling the kettle black, no doubt? best wishes Peter morrell 15:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, well not sure about disinformation. Certainly many garbage articles exist that are factually and historically inaccurate and which contain misinterpretations and these get recycled within the scientific community as facts which they are clearly not. It suits big business and pharmaceutical multinationals to disparage homeopathy in every way possible and at every turn. Always that has been true. It also suits science because it disbelieves in the power of infinitesimal doses on THEORETICAL grounds alone. However, science is rather simplistic & composed mostly of reductionist models that only approximate to reality at best. In any case Hahnemann was a good observer and the Organon an evolving work in progress, and like a scientist's notebook, is composed of two things, as any science notebook should be: observations and deductions, all of them provisional and always revisable in the light of new experience. In this crucial sense homeopathy is entirely a truly empirical science because even its burden of 'theory' is provisional and was constantly revised in his lifetime as a corpus of ideas NOT as a dogma. Though I know folks think different, that is a more accurate statement of his position. He was passionate about his declarations but ultimately each of them was pulverised, revised and replaced in the light of new observations. If that is not the attitude of a good scientist then what is? Peter morrell 07:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Our science of the very small gets into the subject of quantum chromodynamics, molecular theory is inadequate. Whig 09:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's complete bollocks and original research. Quantum mechanics, funnily enough, is defined by a series of mathematical equations that calculate probabilities. It doesn't just automatically justify whatever stupidity you want it to. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

1.The fact that scientists cannot explain today the effect of the (homeopathic) substance or to detect its mechanism is not a proof that it does not exist.It has some effect and this is clearly shown even in some of the studies which are cited in he article - if we decide to really read them. Not to mention the studies which have clearly shown positive effects but they are not included at this point for unknown reasons.

Yeah, they aren't included because of hundreds of studies, you're choosing unreliable ones that show slight results, then talking them up into great justifications for homeopathy. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

2. I think that the statement 'The scientific community asserts there is no evidence that water or alcohol retain any memory of a substance and that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect." is not supported.

Are you asserting that the references given do not reject the efficacy of homeopathy, or that the authors (NIH, NHS, AMA) are not representative of the scientific community? --Art Carlson 09:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

He's asserting that all criticism should be removed. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I mean the second part of the sentence. The scientific community includes MDs, researchers and hospitals which practice homeopathy everywhere in the world. Even in the World Health Organization there was a major controversy 2 years ago (on an unpublished -so far draft- which favored homeopathy) covered by BBC and the Lancet .

The WHO draft again? Yawn. --Art Carlson 09:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, for god's sake. Do you even know what the word "draft" means? Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Therefore the phrase the scientific community asserts that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect is inaccurate. It is a significant part of the scientific community which believes that and we could talk about its exact size. --Sm565 08:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

These are ludicrous statements. There is essentially no competent scientist that would agree that there is any evidence whatsoever for homeopathy. There is no competent scientist that would assert that there is a valid theoretical underpinning to homeopathy. This sort of WP:SOAP is uncalled for.--Filll 14:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, please, again, cool it, man. No need to be so serious. We get the picture. Then again who really cares what scientists think? competent or otherwise. Peter morrell 15:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We are only interested in the views of competent scientists at Misplaced Pages. We have no interest in the ravings of quacks. It is not permissible to reject academic consensus in such a manner, because this is what Misplaced Pages is built to reflect. Moreschi 15:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, if you look at WP:NPOV/FAQ, you will find the helpful statement "Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Even some of the references which are cited now in the article they favor homeopathic treament. Even the cited metanalyses find positive evidence and suggest better designed studies to explore. I dont think they would not do that if they considered homeopathy as a sort of quackery After reading carefully what they say- please explain why the above scientists are incompetent including the ones in the article and why they are not part of the scientific commnunity. If you give a rational explanation then we can keep the term scientific community....otherwhise it must change to a big part of scientific community...or whatever the size is.Best to all.--Sm565 17:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is the dispute about here? What would solve it? Please clarify in brief explanations what exactly the dispute is. Thanks. Wikidudeman 16:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't encourage the trolls. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just one comment Adam: Peter, this shows you to be the either utterly nonserious or seriously confuddled, "Nor does anybody know what the shaking does." This, "...who really cares what scientists think?" speaks to the very ignorance you accuse others of. Yes, Peter, if it will make you happy, all existence and reality is just a metaphysical playground and via modern day alchemy we can find the truth. •Jim62sch• 16:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Outside view: Homeopathy and neutrality

It seems there are three actual separate issues confused above.

• The description of homeopathy is one thing. There are descriptions of how homeopathists see it, and descriptions of how scientists see it, and so on. These are all descriptions. A description of homeopathy is going to draw on multiple views. It will describe what it is, and its concepts, structures and processes and so on, but without saying any given item is "true" or "not true" on either side. It describes.

• However, when it comes to the validation and verification aspects of homeopathy, then the main view is science, since scientific testing methodologies carry significantly more weight than other methodologies. In this area, one has to reflect the balance that the bulk of reliable sources on testing of homeopathy are those conducted by scientists.

• Likewise discussion of the theoretical basis of homeopathy is also predominantly the realm of science, which has a very good uunderstanding how molecules and reactions work. The reliable sources for theoretical underpinnings and comments on its "making sense" are predominantly going to be scientific ones. Alternative views how the world works may be notable, but are given less weight in this question.

In this manner, we can construct an article that fairly reflects both sides of a debate, with due weight.

Hope that helps.

FT2 16:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Of course I've been saying this for months. The article currently reflects this. Wikidudeman 17:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikidudeman, I am new to editing this article, but I do not agree with you that the article is anywhere near NPOV at present. That there is an obvious NPOV dispute cannot be unknown to you. Your defensive statements that the article is presently wonderful are not helpful. Whig 18:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Format lead please

The lead has excessive white-space and most articles I'm aware of don't have that. Could someone please get rid of the extra whitespace Separating paragraphs in the lead? Thanks. Wikidudeman 17:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Although the entire Manual of Style should be followed, it is not completely necessary at this level.
2. ^ Where in-line citations are provided, they should give proper attribution using either Harvard references or the cite.php footnotes method, but not both in the same article. Science-based articles should follow the Scientific citation guidelines.
3. This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics to be listed.
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5. A lack of images does not disqualify the article from GA status.
6. ^ "Similia similibus curentur (Like cures like)". Creighton University Department of Pharmacology. Retrieved 2007-08-20.
7. ^ Cite error: The named reference nccamnih was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
8. ^ Cite error: The named reference homhist1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
9. ^ Cite error: The named reference nhspseudo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. ^ Cite error: The named reference amapseudo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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12. Altunç U, Pittler MH, Ernst E (2007). "Homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments: systematic review of randomized clinical trials". Mayo Clin Proc. 82 (1): 69–75. PMID 17285788.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
13. Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann's "Organon Of Medicine" translated by Dudgeon Fifth Edition § 269
14. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid16125589 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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17. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid11316508 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
18. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid8255290 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
19. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid1376282 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
20. Altunç U, Pittler MH, Ernst E (2007). "Homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments: systematic review of randomized clinical trials". Mayo Clin Proc. 82 (1): 69–75. PMID 17285788.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
21. Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann's "Organon Of Medicine" translated by Dudgeon Fifth Edition § 269

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