Scrolling fixed

The banner has been adjusted to no longer scroll; see w:Misplaced Pages:Purge for help on clearing your cache and viewing the updated version. Cbrown1023 talk 01:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Other options?

Ok, we got the scrolling turned off, that's a big improvement :-) Now what's with those colors? --Kim Bruning 01:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• Image:Some Attempts at better sitenotice.png, for some of my own misguided attempts to make something that looks less bothersom. ^^;; Anyone want to help make something nicer and less invasive than what's there now? --Kim Bruning 02:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
• Image:Movie.png is the movie image on commons. If someone were to upload a nicer variant, we would likely use it. :-) (The image is currently protected, but we can ask commons admins to unprotect or replace it of course! :-) ) --Kim Bruning 02:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
• flashing (maybe not)
• subdued.

The current banner is not... particularly aesthetically pleasing. Is anyone willing to use a silver-and-white, more Misplaced Pages-themed banner? I noticed Image:Misplaced Pages-banner-240-en.png and its interwiki counterparts today, what do people think? ~ Riana ⁂ 04:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

This thread was redundant with Kim's above; I've merged them down here. Chick Bowen 04:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

WTF was wrong with last year and the year before's nice unobtrusive progress bar? 209.77.205.2 04:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I assume it didn't, er, work the way we wanted it to? So we're calling in the big guns... I don't really have a problem with the increased effort (OK, a little, but I realise we do really need the cash) but it would just be nice if it were prettier 0:) ~ Riana ⁂ 04:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Another option is using CSS named element opacity and CSS .hover. I made a quick proof-of-concept over yonder. For browsers that don't support CSS 'opacity' directives, it'll simply appear fully opaque. --slakr 04:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Why can't we do what it did last year? i.e. not disrupt the entire page ♥ Fredil 11:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Redesign

One of the Board Members (Eric) has given tentative approval for replacing the banner provided that we can do better. I would encourage people to collect their efforts at Misplaced Pages:Fundraising redesign (and rewrite that page as necessary). The current Fundraiser is scheduled to run for 2 months, so there is good chunk of time to come up with something better, and in all likelihood we could productively run through several designs during that time. Dragons flight 04:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the numbers in confusion

This page is baffling me somewhat. How on earth do you manage to spend more money - 201,000 dollars versus 150,000 - on the Board of Trustees as opposed to Wikimania? There only are seven Board members, and they are supposed to be unpaid. Wikimania is, on the other hand, supposed to be The Big Showcase of All Things Bright and Beautiful about Misplaced Pages and matters WMF-related. Dividing 201,000 by 7 gives me 28,700 dollars in annual perks for Board members. Not bad for a non-profit - usually Board members of charities are individuals who are net assets in terms of both their money and their time, not a net drain to the tune of 29,000 each for 7 people per year! Moreschi 14:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd suspect there's a lot of travel and lodging costs involved in there; several of the Board members do live in Europe, and probably have to fly over regularly (depending on how board meetings are handled), as well as move around for WMF-related events. Knowing how much it costs to fly, especially intercontinentally, that $29K per doesn't last long. The basic organizational costs for a conference aren't that high, so I can personally see it. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw this broken down once, and the numbers I saw seemed reasonable: plane fare, meals, taxis, car rental, hotel, phone bills. I also saw inter-board debate in which payment for child care and reimbursement for lost wages was rejected. Also saw written standards that require someone other than the recipient approving the reimbursement, that require low cost choices like no first class etc. It all seems to me to be well in hand ethics-wise. It's all on the WikiMedia's server web pages somewhere. I'm sure someone who looked hard enough could find those pages; but I can't remember the exact locations. WAS 4.250 16:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Relevant readings: independent audit results (.pdf) and the 2005 budget breakdown. I assume the numbers from 2006 have not been prepared yet. At least Jimbo isn't taking a helicoptor to his daughter's birthday party in Borneo on foundation money. Keegan 18:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Btw something rather fascinating, Paypal made $45,617 off of our fundraising drive last year. Rather snarky of them to not waive the fee in the name of a tax write-off. Keegan 18:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, my impression is that Wikimania is fairly self-funding: every hosting proposal includes a section on local companies that are willing to donate this, that, and the other. --Carnildo 22:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Green bar

Why is the green bar still there and how do I get rid of it? El_C 08:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

In Mozilla Firefox using Adblock Plus, you can right-click the image and select "Adblock Image." I'm still trying to figure out how to block it in IE using Privoxy.--Gnfgb2 08:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I meant an on-wiki solution; I don't want to mess with my browser. El_C 09:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Custom-fit User:Slakr/nixfundraiser.js to your liking and stick it on your monobook.js. It's a quick hack, though, that one removes all sitenotices (so after the drive is over you might not see stuff like the elections for next year or whatever). --slakr 03:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I still see it. It's bugging me. I'm on IE. I purged the cache and it's still there. Jeeny 10:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I figured out how to block it in IE! You have to install IE7 Pro, though. (It works with IE6, also.) After installing, right-click on the e in the lower-right hand corner of your screen. Then, go to Ad Blocker Advanced --> View Filer Info and right-click on http://upload.wikimedia.org/fundraising/2007/meter-en.png. Then, add a rule for it. Try it, it makes IE7 act just like Firefox! Be sure to clear your temporary internet files first, though.--Gnfgb2 12:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

When I installed ad-blocker I did not think I would need to use it on Misplaced Pages, but I did. Oh well, innocence lost and all that. 1 != 2 16:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Melsaran's sockpuppets

Regarding our recent block of Melsaran, the arbitration committee saw no reason not to release the names of the sockpuppets we believe were his:

• user:Spamcruft
• user:Listcruft
• user:Fancruft
• user:Matthew_Richardson
• user:Hopeshopes

We're still not prepared to name the person we think we behind the whole thing, but since blocking Meslaran (with Picaroon's help), we've uncovered more evidence that seems to confirm our suspicions. Raul654 04:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Curious. The Matthew_Richardson account was used to oppose RFAs that Melsaran supported. What's the point? —Wknight94 (talk) 11:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Assuming they are socks, a way to make the contributions look dissimilar. Viridae 11:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

If anyone started to suspect the two accounts were related, Melsaran could have pointed out that they held different opinions on the RfAs. In both of the RfAs, there was overwhelming support and the Matthew_Richardson account was one of the few opposers. Thus, Melsaran got to fabricate some evidence the accounts were separate and not have to worry about the oppose vote changing the result. Chaz 11:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, what a collosal waste of time. Pathetic. Like one vote from an obvious sock (no, it wasn't obvious that it was Melsaran but it was obvious that the accounts were socks of someone) is really going to turn an RFA discussion. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

As I remember, the "my criteria" page he was linking to said something silly along the lines of "Categories are important: all admin candidates should have at least 50 edits in the category talk namespace". I assumed at the time it was someone making a WP:POINT about the tendency of some people to oppose RfAs with a comment like "not enough edits to namespace X". If so, it was not necessarily an unreasonable point, but a silly way to make it. Iain99 14:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

A wiki-suicidal way to make a point as it turns out. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I wonder how the ***cruft accounts fit in, with a grand total of one edit, what possible evidence could have been derived from that? — Edokter • Talk • 15:29, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I assume they can tell which IP address created an account. Together with the name commonality and the odd javascript edits... —Wknight94 (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this honestly the extent of the "disruption" that led ArbCom to believe that a ban of a (mostly) constructive editor was required to prevent the imminent demise of Misplaced Pages? Yikes. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 16:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Well no, read Raul654's original message above. They think all this and Melsaran are actually all socks of some other banned user! They just haven't said who that is yet. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of all of the various excuses thrown about to justify the block without a shred of public evidence of disruption. None of them relieve me of the complete and utter disappointment in the ridiculous way that this was undertaken. It's fucking unbelievable, in my view, but it's clear I'm in the minority, so I'll just shut the fuck up. I've definitely lost all of the trust in the committee that I had just a couple of weeks ago. I realize no one gives a shit, but that doesn't make me any less saddened. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 16:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

From my short and somewhat cryptic discussion with Raul on IRC, this report is quite likely just the tip of the iceberg. Mr.Z-man 16:40, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this could have been handled better, but it looks like ArbCom did the right thing by blocking. Using sockpuppets in RfAs is quite disrutpive and that doesn't even begin to address the fact that the Melsaran account is also a sockpuppet. I guess everyone views this in different ways, but it doesn't bother me that much that evidence hasn't been released while the investigation is ongoing. Chaz 16:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

We are very open to suggestions about better ways to handle matters like this; if you have specific concerns, ideas, etc., please do let us know. Kirill 16:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm fuzzy on why there is so much angst about this. From what I gather, ArbCom has made it clear that Melsaran, etc., were socks of some banned user. That's really all I need to know. Would I like to know who the original banned user is? Sure, scandals are fun and juicy. Am I going to get all angry if I never find out? No. Am I going to get all angry if it takes me a month or so to find out? Of course not. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. A user was doing some naughty things, ArbCom discovered this and the user was blocked. While I'd also like to know some details, it's perfectly fine with me if privacy reasons prevent this. Chaz 17:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for my curiousity, is the hush hush because it's not all done, because the methods shouldn't be spread about publicly, or because the banned dude in question was very bad? I hope it's not the third as now he's getting more attention through Melsaran than would've happened with "Sockpuppet of Jesse McBanned", but anyway I'm just curious so feel free to blow me off. Milto LOL pia 20:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) This is all completely bloody ridiculous. The evidence shown is nowhere near enough to warrant an indefinite block. The User:Matthew Richardson account (which should never IMO have been blocked anyway; I registered my protest with the blocking admin at the time) was certainly an inappropriate use of a multiple account, but quite possibly he just did it to take the piss out of RfA as a way of relieving frustration - which isn't a good thing to do, but is understandable. Certainly nowhere near enough evidence to block a good, productive editor. The ArbCom has, once again, completely discredited itself by acting in an arbitrary and high-handed manner. It's things like this that are driving people away from Misplaced Pages and making the place fall apart - why, for God's sake why, should we indef-block an account which was actually doing lots of good work for the goddamn encyclopedia, on such a paucity of evidence?! Walton 20:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Walton, with all respect I thought you agreed to take a step back from this one? The block was not for using these socks, it was because ArbCom formed the conclusion that Melsaran was himself a sock of a banned user. I note that Melsaran's only communication on the subject has been to say that he is discussing the matter with the Committee. He is at liberty to post to his talkpage or email others if he feels he is being treated unfairly, similarly he may presumably waive whatever privacy concerns prevent the case against him being set out in full on-wiki. But I find statements like "completely discredited itself by acting in an arbitrary and high-handed manner" completely unhelpful when you are not in full possession of the facts. Should it come to light that ArbCom are mistaken and lacked the proper evidence support their actions, then no doubt the community will demand answers to some pretty tough questions. Can we try and not make these discussions unnecessarily charged? WjBscribe 21:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Here are my concerns:

• There had been no evidence presented showing disruption by the Melsaran account. Instead, Melsaran was a productive editor (with caveats, as always).
• Though the facts seemed to change depending on which arbitrator or checkuser was commenting at the time, it was clear that while it was believed that Melsaran was a sockpuppet of someone, there was no conclusion as to whom.
• As such, there was no way of knowing whether the alleged sockpuppeteer had been blocked, banned, or had in any way disrupted the encyclopedia. In fact, based on the information provided by those on high, it was entirely possible that the alternate accounts did not run afoul of WP:SOCK. (I can't imagine that ArbCom would act in this scenario, but again, zero evidence, zero justification. I can't indefinitely assume good faith in the absence of such faith being demonstrated.)
• The privacy policy has been cited as a reason that more information cannot be provided. However, if there is conclusive evidence of multiple accounts disrupting the encyclopedia or evading a ban, there is no restriction on the release of that information. The only scenarios in which the privacy policy would restrict the release of the evidence are:
  • There is no demonstrable vandalism or disruption of the encyclopedia from either sockpuppets or the sockpuppeteer
  • There is insufficient evidence linking the sockpuppets to the sockpuppeteer
• If the first applies, then a block is entirely unnecessary. If the second applies, then the block is entirely premature and should not be enacted until the evidence is clear and a conclusion can be published with accompanying evidence.

Again, there has been no indication of imminent disruption of the encyclopedia — no one could point to a single edit of Melsaran that warranted a block. Do I believe Melsaran could be a sockpuppet or alternate account? Of course, it's possible with any account — that's the nature of the way Misplaced Pages works. Had the account been a blocked user evading a block, then a block would be unnecessary — blocks are preventative, and if the user has reformed, then all the better for Misplaced Pages. Had the account been a banned user, it's less clear what to do, and the response would have to be undertaken on a case by case basis, and ArbCom of course has the prerogative to act accordingly.

My main concern has been the complete lack of transparency. It's this type of behavior that leads to our numerous critics. Normally, I think them to be hyperbolic hand-wavers without a bit of substance, but it's cases like these that make me doubt. I don't in any way see why the committee had to act so quickly and so forcefully before the investigation was completed. Once the investigation was completed, the evidence could be presented publicly and the reasons behind the block would have (hopefully) been clear. There would have been no issues caused by Wikimedia's privacy policy. Again, there has been no presentation of imminent disruption, and the investigation had obviously not concluded nor had it provided conclusive evidence of who the sockpuppeteer was. In the absence of any of these things, a block of a productive editor is premature and unwarranted and entirely contrary to the spirit of Misplaced Pages.

I hope this explains my position, and I hope that the Arbitration Committee takes my concerns to heart (I appreciate your response, Kirill) and focuses, in similar cases in the future, on the transparency necessary for such extreme actions. I likely will not be checking this thread anymore, but you are free to e-mail me or utilize my talk page should you wish to correspond with me. Warmest regards, —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 21:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Walton 21:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thirding is typically useless in discussions such as this, but inasmuch as Bbatsell fears that "no one gives a shit", I should say that I, for one, echo quite heartily Walton's "hear, hear".

Has Melsaran said anywhere that he believes he has been treated unfairly? That he would like the full case against him made available to the rest of Misplaced Pages? I realise it is frustrating not to know all the facts and not to able to provide independent review of the block. Might I suggest that you start by asking Melsaran whether he welcomes this assistance or would prefer to be allowed to continue attempting to resolve the matter privately? WjBscribe 21:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

• Let me respond as best I understand the situation. Remember this is based on public postings by the various arbitrators and checkusers from the previous report. I think I'm right, and all you have to do is read the various comments carefully to see where I'm coming from. (Of course, I may be wrong.)
  • There had been no evidence presented showing disruption by the Melsaran account. Instead, Melsaran was a productive editor (with caveats, as always).
    • Melsaran has made a number of edits suggestive of someone with a point to make, and and lot of people suspected him of being a reincarnated user of some kind, but he hadn't done anything overt to warrant a block or ban.
  • Though the facts seemed to change depending on which arbitrator or checkuser was commenting at the time, it was clear that while it was believed that Melsaran was a sockpuppet of someone, there was no conclusion as to whom.
    • That seems to be correct.
  • As such, there was no way of knowing whether the alleged sockpuppeteer had been blocked, banned, or had in any way disrupted the encyclopedia. In fact, based on the information provided by those on high, it was entirely possible that the alternate accounts did not run afoul of WP:SOCK. (I can't imagine that ArbCom would act in this scenario, but again, zero evidence, zero justification. I can't indefinitely assume good faith in the absence of such faith being demonstrated.)
    • Comments in the previous thread made clear that a checkuser was run showing that Melsaran was abusively using sockpuppets, and it was the edits of the sockpuppets that allowed ArbCom to make a determination of who he really was, and he in fact is a banned user. Because checkuser data is preserved for a limited time period, it was not possible to determine which blocked user Melsaran was a reincarnation of based on technical evidence alone, and since Melsaran was a "good hand" account, it was only when his own recent use of socks was discovered that identification based on behavior of the socks was confirmed.
  • The privacy policy has been cited as a reason that more information cannot be provided. However, if there is conclusive evidence of multiple accounts disrupting the encyclopedia or evading a ban, there is no restriction on the release of that information.
    • Yes, which is why (at least some of) the sock accounts have now been publicly identified. Remember that some of the sockpuppet edits may have been oversighted (two of the accounts have no live or deleted edits visible), to protect the person he was stated to have been harassing, and to protect his own privacy. If this is a banned user known by his real name, there are strategic reasons why an offer of "Go away quietly and we won't make a big stink that might affect your real life" might have been made.
• Hope this helps. Thatcher131 22:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher has already helped contribute some good sense to this thread. Let me see if I can clarify some more. I am very disappointed by the claims of Bbatsell and others along the lines of "there was no way of knowing whether the alleged sockpuppeteer had been blocked, banned, or had in any way disrupted the encyclopedia. In fact, based on the information provided by those on high, it was entirely possible that the alternate accounts did not run afoul of WP:SOCK." That seems like blatant misrepresentation at worst, and a severe lack of good-faith-assuming at best. I'm not sure why you've chosen to ignore it, but it was told already in the original thread that Melsaran was banned for engaging in harassment and stalking with his sockpuppets, and that it was connected to an ongoing vile campaign by people off-wiki to target a particular user on Misplaced Pages for abuse. It doesn't matter whether Melsaran is a reincarnation of some banned user, or simply a copycat. He is banned in his own right for what he did now; if he was already banned, then he is doubly banned, but that doesn't make him any less banned now. There's nothing more to be revealed, unless you insist on our reversing the oversight of the offending sensitive material. This isn't a transparency issue. There is no reasonable expectation that the community should have access to the edits that got a user banned for harassment, other than that and the sensitive technical evidence gained from checkuser that connects the accounts, you know all that I know. I'm sorry if what's left after we protect our own isn't juicy enough, but that's no reason to spread FUD and make demands for more evidence. Dmcdevit·t 02:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher131's and Dmcdevit's comments are good explanations of the situation. When we are dealing with a persistent banned user that has harmed in the past and continues to harm with other sock accounts, we can not let any of their accounts remain active past the period of investigation. It would be irresponsible of us to give the banned user an opportunity to harm with this account. FloNight♥♥♥ 11:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In a comment from Melsaran on his talk page, he uses the words "...until I have resolved this matter with the ArbCom." Could you elaborate on what this might mean? Is there any pending resolution? Thanks, Chaz 12:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In coversation with someone (not an ArbCom member) on IRC, I was informed that Melsaran admits to having copied a known harasser, and is sorry. The question then becomes, (1) do we believe he is only a copycat, and if so (2) do we extend a second chance to someone who, apparently just for kicks, copied an extremely vicious stalker? I can see good arguments on both sides of the question. (If someone came along and copied the style of Willy on Wheels or Jason Gastrich or Amorrow, and then said "I was only kidding," would we give him a second chance?) I think it would be best to let ArbCom make the decision without further kibitizing from the peanut gallery. After all, these are 15 people who were elected because they were believed to be reasonable, fair-minded and level-headed. Thatcher131 16:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Question for member of the arbitration committee

Is there a reason Melsaran is still able to edit on other languages: . I know the technical answer that blocking him here doesn't block him there, but I was wondering if he was banned here, do the nl users (I don't know if they have an arbitration committee) have to ban him there, or is it a wikimedia-wide ban? If it is not a wikimedia-wide ban, has some heads up been given to the Dutch Misplaced Pages admins? Is any needed? Mahalo. --Ali'i 21:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Not an ArbCom member, but the answer to your question is that each project applies bans individually. There is an admin on Wikiquote who is banned on this project for example. If someone needs to be banned on another project, it should be raised there. The fact that the person has been banned on one project may be persuasive evidence that they should be banned on others, but it isn't conclusive. Certainly the en.wiki Arbitration Committee's authority does not extend beyond this project. WjBscribe 22:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) ArbCom can do nothing about other languages/projects, thankfully. I really don't think the admins should be informed either. For example, on Simple English Misplaced Pages, we have editors who are banned on here, who participate in a responsible manner. Majorly (talk) 22:03, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - perhaps this may suggest that over here we're far too trigger-happy with blocks and bans. And people wonder why participation rates are declining. Walton 22:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it merely means that the English ArbCom's authority only extends to the English Misplaced Pages. Thatcher131 23:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that users which are banned here are happy elsewhere is not a reflection on our banning of editors, nor on them. Some people just work better where they don't have personality clashes with other people causing them to behave unreasonably. --Deskana (talk) 23:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

My conjecture is that we're running out of encyclopedic things to write about. Keegan 05:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe so, but if more people paid attention to the fact that editors matter more than the enforcement of petty rules, then we'd find it much easier to retain contributors IMO. (This isn't a comment on the Melsaran case specifically, but on Misplaced Pages as a whole.) Walton 08:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with 'sensitive' blocks

Just some ideas for the next time a situation like this comes up.

While the ArbCom obviously shouldn't supply the contents of harassing edits there is no apparent reason the harassment could not be described in general terms. I doubt many people would have complained if ArbCom had at the start issued a statement that, 'Melsaran has been blocked after multiple checkusers concluded that he was operating sockpuppet accounts which were posting the reputed real name and address of another user and making death threats'... or whatever the actual harassment was. No need to quote or leave visible the edits or even say who the target was, but clearly explaining what the person actually did wrong ought to be the first order of business. Just saying 'harassment' can mean alot of different things... if it was the 'he posted a link to MichaelMoore.com' type of 'harassment' which was in vogue not so long ago I'd have said an indefinite block was un-needed. Presumably it was something considerably worse than that, but if any such has been stated I haven't seen it.

Also, in cases where further investigation is needed/desired I'd suggest allowing 'good hand' accounts to continue operating. If they don't know they are under suspicion they are that much more likely to do something which can be used to confirm their identity. Since the Melsaran account was (apparently) providing positive contributions for the most part, there likely wouldn't have been any harm in 'giving him enough rope to hang himself' while privately discussing how to present the case to the community without revealing any sensitive information. --CBD 11:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Overall, we did as you suggest here. We proceeded slowly, watching the accounts, discussing possible alternative explanations and decided what type of information could be released. We have to balance the community's desire to know with potential damage on several fronts if we release more information. FloNight♥♥♥ 11:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It's incumbent on ArbCom to release enough information that a concerned Wikipedian unconnected with the situation can reasonably assure himself or herself that the decision was fair and correct. Banning users is one of the most significant administrative acts that can happen on Misplaced Pages, and people's desire to understand what is happening is no matter of sensationalism or scandal-mongering, it's a desire for basic accountability. We need transparency to make sure Misplaced Pages is being properly run. Questioning official decisions and asking decision-makers to justify themselves is not undue mistrust, it is basic, Civics 101-level good governance. If the project loses the faith of editors, there is no project. Nobody has ever cast doubt on the ArbCom but there is growing discontent over the administrators more generally have conducted themselves and reached their decisions. It's hard to imagine a case on Misplaced Pages where "I'm keeping secrets from you for your own good" applies. Even in the wider world, where that privilege is sometimes evoked in matters of crime fighting, national security, and privacy, it always erodes trust and is suspected (often correctly) of being used to hide mistakes, corruption, and conflicts of interest. Here, withholding information runs counter to the basic open spirit of the project, where nearly everything is done on the record and out in the open. Surely, if things are redacted, mentioned in generalities, attested to where the proof is too sensitive, promised for future release if the investigation is ongoing, or if necessary even share the information with a trusted intermediary or accept audits or decision reviews by someone disinterested, ArbCom can surely satisfy any reasonable concern over a decision like this. Wikidemo 13:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That is what we did. :-) After our decision to indef block, we promptly gave a general description of the situation and released some information. After the content was redacted (oversighted), we released more information. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ehh... I think the, 'we did that' bit misses the point. You could post 'he was bad' and call that 'giving the community a general description'. Technically accurate... but practically inadequate. The most detailed description of 'bad' in this case which I have seen is, "engaging in harassment and stalking with his sockpuppets". Now, I've seen people, including ArbCom members, call things 'harassment' and 'stalking' which I'd say were nothing of the kind (e.g. the aforementioned linking to MichaelMoore.com)... but there are enough different personalities on the ArbCom that I've no doubt that if those labels weren't clearly applicable in this case someone would be objecting. Thus, that's enough for me... 'he was bad'. However, others may have difficulty trusting ArbCom as a whole or know/like Melsaran better and want something clearer. Thus, again, in the future I'd urge the committee to come out in their first post about any blocks involving 'confidential evidence' with an explanation of the actual 'bad acts' in as much specificity as possible. You can't say, 'He posted that CBDunkerson is really Conrad Dunkerson and lives in Wharton, NJ', but I can't imagine what would be wrong with saying, 'He posted what he claimed were the real name and address of another user'. It doesn't reveal anything sensitive, but is alot clearer than 'harassment'. --CBD 16:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Calibrating this sort of sensitive communication is always a tricky business. Each new case is a learning experience. Thatcher131 21:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Certainly so. Just giving my opinion / advice. --CBD 10:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Semi-Related

Melsaran asked to leave his page intact until this issue is resolved . Viridae acknowledged the request and reverted . Burntsauce came along and reverted back to the indef ban template. Please note that Burntsauce and Melsaran have a bit of an issue going on between them right now. I was going to revert back to the previous version but wanted clarification before I did so. I see nothing wrong with it until this matter is truly cleared up. Just wanted others opinions. Spryde 17:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This issue isn't fully resolved yet, and until we know for definite that Melsaran is going to remain blocked, then his userpage can stay as he left it. I'll protect it if it gets reverted again. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That was my thinking but I wanted a third party involved. I have spoken my piece about this whole issue elsewhere and decided I might not be acting in the best interests of the project. Thanks! Spryde 17:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

And I protected as I got reverted. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ryan, as an aside, I don't think it was appropriate for you to revert and then immediately protect the page, given that you had already reverted earlier. As an involved admin, you should have left it to another admin to protect. Not a huge deal IMO, but just a heads up for the future. Chaz 18:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If he hadn't, I would have. I would offer to unprotect and semire-protect except then someone would invoke the dreaded "wheel-war" term. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No, that would be pointless and I actually think the end result is fine. The problem is that anyone looking at the history will see Ryan twice reverting Burntsauce and then immediately protecting the page. There wasn't any rush for the page to be protected right this second so asking another admin to protect would have been much better in the long run. Like I said, not a huge deal to me, but it's things like this that get people riled up about rouge admins and such. Chaz 18:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I actually thought about that Chaz, I just thought it was best to nip it in the bud before it go out of hand and adding the banned template before it's sorted could ammount to harassment. I'm more than happy to unprotect it if people think it was inappropriate. Cheers, Ryan Postlethwaite 18:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

An easy use of WP:IAR. Otherwise, Burntsauce would have probably re-re-reverted and then an uninvolved admin would have had to block him and then it would get ugly and sticky. No one wants to see all that. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Except this did not improve Misplaced Pages. Melsaran is blocked, and is not being unblocked. There is nothing up in the air about the Melsaran account being blocked aspect of this situation unless the committee specifically says otherwise. I don't see how there is any dispute over the applicability of the {{subst:sockpuppeteer|proven}} tag - he is a sockpuppeteer, it's proven, and he's been blocked. I'm readding the relevant tag to his userpage, as is the norm in this sort of situation, but will leave the talk page be for now. Picaroon (t) 21:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It nipped it in the bud that's for sure. I don't believe that slapping a sockpuppet tag on his userpage at this point in time is the best thing to do, he is still in discussion with ArbCom about the whole thing, and until that concludes, we should leave the page how it is. We put the tags there when we know someone isn't coming back. In this case, we aren't 100% sure at this stage. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

We're never 100% sure someone isn't coming back, so we might as well just remove the tags from User:Willy on Wheels using that logic. There could be any of thousands of sockpuppets of banned users asking the committee to unblock them right now, but we aren't going to leave their userpages in limbo for the duration of the discussion, now are we? Melsaran is blocked, period. If he is unblocked, the notice can be removed. Until then, we need not fool anyone into thinking Melsaran is an active user, because he's not; he's a blocked sockpuppeteer. I also note that Raul placed the template in the first place. Melsaran's request to leave his userpage as is does not override this. Hope that helps. Picaroon (t) 23:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Leave Melsaran's userpage tagged as a sockpuppeteer. Melsaran has had basically no contact with the arbcom over his block. (He sent James a two-sentence email asking what happened, and that's it.) And according to Thatcher above, he has admitted to others that we're right about the sockpuppeting. Raul654 03:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Forum link on Sac-Anime

I have been engaged in a minor edit war over a forum link to the convention. In the last edit summery and on the talk page, I explained my rational for removing the link. The person(s) who keep restoring the forum link have not made any other edits outside of this article. --Farix (Talk) 12:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

And Ohshimasu (talk · contribs) restores the forum link yet again with an edit summery of, "if you are going to let other conventions list their message board/forums then unlink those too." It's pretty clear that he or she did read the talk page or look at the other anime convention articles. --Farix (Talk) 11:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Userpage soapbox, requesting some opinions

Deeceevoice (talk · contribs · logs · block log)

This userpage:User:Deeceevoice,current version as of posting seems to be used primarily as a soapbox for the user to preach various (offensive to many) views and rant about perceived racism of wikipedia editors. The userpage has a huge bold text proclaiming "free the jena six" with links to websites with petitions as well as a long essay preaching against wikipedia, essentially proclaiming that wikipedia is racist and "white-washed" and concluding that "Misplaced Pages is a f***ing runaway freight train headed straight to hell. It's downright and despicably dangerous." This information is quite offensive and I think it goes against WP:USER. I am posting this here because I wanted to get some input on the matter to see what everyone else thought. I believe that this soapboxing isn't helpful. Wikidudeman 14:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This user has been blocked 20 times in the past and has also had several issues with soapboxing on their userpage. Wikidudeman 14:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It may be worthwhile to review the provisions of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Deeceevoice with Deeceevoice. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The passed remedy states that "Deeceevoice is prohibited from using her user page to publish offensive rants." and that "Any administrator may delete any offensive material from her user page at any time." Wikidudeman 15:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This same issue came up a couple of weeks ago. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Misplaced Pages for systemic bias against black/African American topics. Calling out specific editors is not really appropriate, but general comments are generally ok. Thatcher131 16:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive305#Discussion_re_userpage_User:Deeceevoice. We really don't need to be revisiting this over and over again. Thatcher131 16:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that it's being used as a soapbox. That's not what Misplaced Pages is for. Not to mention that this editor has previously been sanctioned and is prohibited from posting anything even remotely offensive on their userpage, and I've seen several offensive things on it. Wikidudeman 16:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Then don't look at her page if you find it offensive. It's not an "offensive rant". I agree with Thatcher about revisisting this again, and that it is perfectly acceptable to criticize Misplaced Pages for bias, because it's true! I find your badgering of DC offensive, so should I report you, Wikidudeman? Jeeny 16:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

You're not assuming good faith, firstly. Calling a simple request that the editor remove the offensive info from their userpage and a simple request for more comments here isn't "badgering". Misplaced Pages isn't a soapbox for rants about politics, race or how wikipedia is "a f***ing runaway freight train headed straight to hell". If you think such soapboxing is acceptable then I think you should review policy. Wikidudeman 16:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have to assume good faith if I see otherwise. Anyway, you may want to review policy, yourself. Soapboxing is not allowed on article talk pages, sure, but it happens. Also her user page is about Misplaced Pages, and the policy on userpages says that's okay. Jeeny 17:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

What does the Jena 6 have to do with Misplaced Pages? Wikidudeman 17:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, now you're nit-picking. That's been already addressed, anyway. I was refering to your complaint against her "offensive rant". Links are okay too on user pages. Jeeny 17:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

What about the statement "Misplaced Pages is a f***ing runaway freight train headed straight to hell. It's downright and despicably dangerous."? What about posting links to one of the instances the editor was blocked and insinuating that the block was done because of race? Or how about implying that User:Stbalbach is a racist? The implication is made in a very sarcastic and roundabout way but it's made. Is this all acceptable? Wikidudeman 17:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The links to specific edits have been removed. Alleging that specific editors are racist is not acceptable. Thatcher131 17:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

O'rly. You know what is really unacceptable? Racists. And if one can call someone a dick, but not a racist, (I'm talking about blatant racism, not "alleged" or "perceived"), then there is really something wrong here. It shouldn't have taken a year to have self-proclaimed racists finally banned. If I didn't hoot and holla about it, and get myself blocked, then they would still be here. (Well, others helped too, but I called it as I saw it, no tippy-toeing around.) It worked! Although, there's still a couple of 'em left (that I know of). Jeeny 11:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This is really silly and I'm getting tired of it. I'm not an admin or an important user, but it really annoys me when it seems like one person is being picked on just because they are trying to speak up about unfairness and racism. Now can we all get back to improving the wikipedia again? Please? futurebird 17:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Not "speaking up about unfairness and racism" but ranting against what they perceive to be racism and in the process making accusations about various editors, insulting various editors and offending many more. This sort of behavior is unhelpful for many reasons. Wikidudeman 17:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Racism is rampant here. I know, I've been blocked for calling a self-proclaimed racist a racist! Who was then banned by Jimbo himself. That is frikken ridiculous when you can't call someone out for that which is very obvious because it's not "polite". I don't know about the users she had linked to, though, but I know a racist when I see/hear one. And if it walks like a duck, it is a duck. Jeeny 17:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that what Deeceevoice posts on her user page is not, on balance, useful to the project. We would no doubt benefit greatly from intelligent and calm discussion of the problems regarding racial bias on Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately, rather than participating in anything such, Deeceevoice has always preferred to post antagonistic diatribes. Pure vitriol is simply unhelpful, and this is why Arbcom ruled to prohibit the posting of these sorts of rants on her user page. Quite where we draw the line, I don't know, but I've observed that Deeceevoice has a habit of attempting to maintain as caustic a user page as she believes she can get away with. It generates nothing but bickering, and I can't help but feel that it's probably best blanked and protected, and everyone can just move on to more useful activities. — Matt Crypto 17:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, last time I tried to do something about it, a lot of people jumped to her defense. I was apparently a racist, promoting censorship, I was an abusive administrator, and I had made a huge error of judgement. Apparently. I am unsure why so many people wish to protect DCV's right to have soapboxing tirades and rants on her userpage despite being under a specific Arbcom injunction to not have any content of that sort. Perhaps it's white guilt? Neil ☎ 18:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh please. Let's get back to working on articles. This reporting crap is more disruptive than anything. It's a friggen userpage! There are many articles that have mis-information, psuedo-science, and poorly referenced. Now please, get back to work on the important things. Misplaced Pages article space! Jeeny 18:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

We do have standards on what is appropriate for user space, and we have them for a reason. If the inappropriate content goes away, we won't see it being reported again, right? The solution seems rather obvious. Friday (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This user has a long history of abusing their userpage. I would suggest totally blanking the page and fully protecting it. Deeceevoice can request an admin make edits to it if/when she decides to use the page properly. Wikidudeman 18:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Or Che Gueverra. Wikidudeman 02:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Provocation much, Wikidudeman? El_C 03:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The userpage has a huge bold text proclaiming "free the jena six". Oh really? Not now it doesn't. It proclaims "Justice for the Jena Six!" Moreover, that's just what it said just before WDM started this thread. Now, I was under the impression that the "Jena Six" (like Deeceevoice herself) are US citizens in the US, and the related events happened in the US, and thus that it's a matter under US jurisdiction; and I was also under the impression that justice for all citizens was central to the US constitution and therefore that a demand for it would be intrinsically apolitical. So where's the beef? ¶ By contrast, I am slightly worried by Deeceevoice's statement that Misplaced Pages is a f***ing runaway freight train headed straight to hell. If she doesn't mean that it's a fucking runaway freight train, what does she mean; and if she does mean this, why the coy asterisks? ¶ But that's only a minor quibble. More importantly, the world is probably safe from the Misplaced Pages freight train as long as potential contributors/detractors to article content are instead wasting their time recycling tired old indignation over this particular user page. -- Hoary 10:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That's right, My mistake. Wikidudeman 02:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The only reason this link to a particular editor is receiving much attention is because of the fuss about removing it. Which arises from some users appearing more willing to put effort into WP:OFFICIOUSness instead of focussing on improving articles. Deeceevoice can help to contribute, or can be repeatedly goaded into fights. Since users are usually allowed considerable leeway in what they put on their user page, heavy handed policing seems to me a pure waste of time. I can appreciate the concerns that criticism shouldn't name users, though of course forums like this do it all the time. However, persuasion by polite and frank discussion with the aim of finding a mutually acceptable way forward must surely be preferred to imposing censorship. .. dave souza, talk 12:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem as that numerous attempts have been made to get the user to change their userpage and it only resulted in edit warring and page protection to keep the inappropriate material off. BTW, I originally posted this to get opinions on the matter, not to censor the editor. Wikidudeman 02:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for flagging that mini-essay, dave souza. I wasn't aware of it, and it might come in handy in the future. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This friggin bullshit again? Give it a rest: there's an Encyclopedia to write. What is with you people?

And while we're at it, let's look here : a picture of William Tecumseh Sherman? Seems to me that that might piss off more than a few Southerners. So, what is the point of the picture: to soapbox on the glory of total war? •Jim62sch• 20:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Although the image of William Tecumseh Sherman is the Misplaced Pages:Picture of the day; not soapboxing. - auburnpilot talk 22:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That's right. It changes every day. I didn't add the picture of Sherman. It changes automatically. Right now the Sherman image is gone and there is now an image of the panoramic view of the Melbourne Dockland. I don't use my userpage for anything other than utilitarian purpose. Wikidudeman 02:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

So the image of yourself that you present is utilitarian, and an automatic reflection of the picture of the day. Fair enough. My understanding is that userpages are for users to tell others a bit about themselves, as much or as little as they wish. So even if, for example, a user bends the rules and presents a sermon or religious statement, that's fine by me. It telle me more about the user than something censored and sanctioned by committee. .. dave souza, talk 11:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The picture of the day is also important to keep track of. Userpages aren't meant to be used as saopboxes to preach about the evils of Misplaced Pages or accuse other editors of being racist. That's just inappropriate in my opinion. Now if thinking that it's inappropriate to use a userpage for rants about how bad wikipedia is or to accuse other editors of racism makes me "officious" then I guess I'm officious. Wikidudeman 12:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've seen more racism on Wiki than I ever expected to see, so I have no real problem with DeeCeeVoice pointing it out. Admittedly, she's a bit strident at times, but unless her feelings spill over to article space I don't give a damn. See, I think Free Speech is like, really cool, dude. The only thing that DCV violated was your restrictive sense of propriety. So sad, too bad: don't look at her damned page. Had you any sense you'd realise that by bringing this up repeatedly you are giving her the exposure she wants and if you blank the page you'll be making her a martyr in what will likely be seen as a racist witchhunt. But, you do as you will(Hell, just because I was a PoliSci major doesn't mean that I understand the dynamics of political systems and movements any better than does a lima bean, so just ignore my advice). •Jim62sch• 13:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Without addressing the rest, just keep in mind that you do not reserve the right to free speech on Misplaced Pages. See Misplaced Pages:Free speech - auburnpilot talk 15:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, that's not listed as a policy, it is in fact an essay. Of course, WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored is a policy. Oddly enough, though, none of the definitions of Soapbox fit DCV's page. All so odd, yes? •Jim62sch• 16:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Policies aren't exclusive. The fact that Misplaced Pages isn't censored doesn't trump our rules on civility, personal insults or soapboxing. Accusing other editors of being racist is unhelpful, divisive and inappropriateWikidudeman 16:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Link?

I've been monitoring User:Josh Gotti and his ridiculous amount of proxy sockpuppets for a while now. Most of his vandalism is pretty harmless, and involves adding a link to Big Hunna Entertainments, a non-existent record label, to musicians' articles. For some reason, however, Big Hunna is blue-linked to the main page. Does someone know why this is, and can it be fixed? Thanks! :) Rockstar (/_C) 22:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the redirect page, so it will now be a redlink. J Milburn 22:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. the "redirected from..." thing that's usually at the top of the page when you've been redirected doesn't show up when it's a redirect to the main page (try User:Barneca/Sandboxen/SE to see). I had to fiddle with the URL itself to get into edit mode, and finally figured out how to blank the page a few seconds before J Milburn nuked it. I'm guessing it's because of the banner at the top of the page "covering" what would normally be seen there? --barneca (talk) 22:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, good point. I didn't think about the Donate banner. Thanks for deleting, J Milburn! Rockstar (/_C) 22:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rockstar, I meant the "Welcome to Misplaced Pages" banner, not the donation banner. If the donation banner messed up the redirect link, people would be even more annoyed with it than they are now. --barneca (talk) 23:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. My bad. That makes more sense anyway. :) Rockstar (/_C) 23:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it's not the banner, but the part of MediaWiki:Monobook.css that hides the page title on the main page (look for "body.page-Main_Page"). Apparently it also hides the redirect notice that usually appears just below the title. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 15:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Second pair of eyes please...

As I'm tangentially involved - I've never edited the templates being argued over, but I've done a lot of work on pages using the templates - could someone else have a skim through this mess of sockpuppetry and personal attacks (and the contributions of the assorted SPAs) to see if I'm over/underreacting. (The "sockpuppeteer" mentioned is Lucy-marie, blocked last month for long-term socking on, among other things, the templates in question.) — iridescent 23:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, while on reflection I won't do any blocking myself in this case, having interacted with both parties previously, could I suggest anyone who does get involved, make of this post on my talk page what you will. — iridescent 00:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Canterberry diff and User:Miner2049er diff. Another admin needs to review the contributions of the other accounts named in the first diff as probable sockpuppets. (See User talk:SouthernElectric's history; it sure looks likely based on that, but more should be checked.) I don't have time now to finish sorting this out. If possible compare to Lucy-marie; the commonality of interests is worthy of consideration. I have to get to work. GRBerry 13:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

All now blocked, since each other account in the first diff fessed up on their user page. Given that the puppetmaster wasn't able to self-identify all their puppets initially, should we search for more? How? GRBerry 18:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, since this is outside my comfort zone, should the admitted puppetteer have an indefinite block? I accept any change to that duration, provided the changer has first investigated the possibility of a Lucy-marie relationship. GRBerry 18:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I think all of the indefinite blocks were correct, including that on User:Canterberry. I don't see a clear circumstantial link to User:Lucy-marie here, so in the absence of something more concrete, or checkuser data, I don't think any action needs to be taken there. It appears Lucy-marie has avoided the railway articles (more or less) since her block for sockpuppeteering. Am I missing anything? MastCell 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think they'll be the same as Lucy-marie - if I remember her right, her socks mostly stuck to generating a fake "consensus" to change miles/gallons to metric measurements on every article, and revert-warring over the removal of the word "fascist" on neo-nazi parties. LM seems to have gone very quiet lately, so I suppose anything's possible. As Canterberry generally only edited railroad-related articles, he should be easy enough to spot if he sneaks back under a new name. (My talk page seems to be becoming the arena of choice for sockpuppetry right now - cast your eyes over this prime candidate for WP:LAME earlier today.) — iridescent 19:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

(Reply to MastCell) - I agree that there's nothing concrete to point to Lucy-marie. Besides, even if they are the same account, they're certainly not working in tandem - it was (ironically) Canterberry who first drew my attention to the edits that led to Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/Lucy-marie. — iridescent 19:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If you both agree, we can probably call this resolved. GRBerry 19:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. MastCell 20:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me... there are enough WP:TWP members watching the articles in question now that any resumption will be spotted. — iridescent 21:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Canterberry has requested review. diff. GRBerry 22:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Note to whoever reviews this - it may be a complete coincidence but in the ten minutes immediately before Canterberry's unblock request my talk page came under a barrage of vandalism from UK-based IPs (, , ). — iridescent 22:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether this is the right place for this or not, but I think an indef block on Canterberry is much too harsh. As both of us edit a lot of UK railway-related articles, I have seen much of his editing and talk-page contributions over the past year (including his other account User:ALECTRIC451 -- I wasn't aware of the relationship until now). His editing and passion towards railway-related subjects is undoubted, and in his early days at WP (under ALECTRIC451) made huge contributions to the articles on electrified railways in the UK.

I agree that he has a rather hot temper, although he is not the only one on WP. Indeed, I would say that on more than a few occasions I have been very uncomfortable with the tone of his talk page comments, and have placed counter-comments on more than one occasion. However, over the past couple of weeks I was really starting to warm to him -- his positive contributions far outweigh his occasionally poor choice of words on talk pages, and his occasional tendency to allow discussions to escalate heatedly (as in the case quoted here). I don't want to suggest for one minute that he has a 'problem', but it would be interesting to find out from him whether his occasional intemperate comments had any correlation to consumption of alcohol -- it would certainly explain the different sides of Canterberry at WP.

To finish, I must say that I was alerted to this by User:Iridescent, and I have absolutely no connection with Canterberry, whatsoever, except that our paths have crossed on numerous occasions on WP. (Indeed, only a couple of weeks ago I was particularly surprised to find he had responded to a comment left on my talk page before I had seen it myself! Though, fortunately, I completely agreed with his sentiments!) I think Canterberry did need to be disciplined, and I believe he has learned his lessons. His unblock request has been denied by one admin, but I would request that he be given another chance, even if it needs to be 'on probation'. If I have read him right over the past year, he has the best interests of WP article quality at heart and I think he may well back-off much more quickly in future, having been through this.

Incidentally, I don't believe Canterberry has anything to do with the Lucy-Marie sock-puppets (having watched some of the incidents as they happened.) And I would be extremely surprised if Iridescent's talk page vandalism was anything to do with him either, as it doesn't look like his style.

EdJogg 08:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

As the recipient of his sock puppetry and his truly personal attacks (publicly questioning my state of mind, purely on my contribution history) I would like to remind people that this was not just a 'bad day' but one that started on 16 October and resumed when I restored my user/talk pages after having walked away from that page and others (I even cleared my watched pages and lodged-out for a time) for over a week. At the time of his personal attack on me (using his sock puppets) I had not made any substantive edit or talk page contribution (and still haven't) to the article were the disagreement started or indeed pages were he had (to our knowledge) involvement, I would also point out that this whole issue came from his use of WP:BOLD despite a slowly forming consensus on the relevant talk page. SouthernElectric 10:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Untagged image description pages

ST47 created a list (warning: large page) of every image description page on en.wiki that does not have any templates (read: source tags). There are several thousand pages. Any help would be appreciated. Please do not use a bot to mark them all for deletion; these pages need human eyes. Also, if you want the list updated, simply file a request under "Database Queries" here. Cheers. --MZMcBride 03:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Just like to echo the point that nobody should be running a bot through this list, tagging them for deletion. Many images appear to have all the information required to be legally acceptable; they just need the correct tags to be acceptable here. For example, Image:Quad Skate with Dance Wheels.png, the 4084th image on the list, is clearly licensed as "Created by G. Lavigne self2 GFDL cc-by-2.5 Attribution required". Convert the text to template and you're done. - auburnpilot talk 03:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I also notice some of the images listed on the page were uploaded by the Conversion script in 2004, so finding a source or license for the images will be pretty tricky. User:Zscout370 05:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Of the ones I looked at, most were clearly self-created, but had no license information. How do we want to handle these? --Carnildo 06:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Find the user who uploaded,...or at least try... —— Eagle101 07:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

To find who uploaded an old image, try searching the old upload logs at Misplaced Pages:Upload log. They're not entirely complete, but the the last time I came up against this I asked Brion and he managed to dig up some more logs, so they're better than they used to be. I've added a note about this to the top of the list. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

0RR on dominionism template

Template:Dominionism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This is just a heads-up. This template is a perpetual source of edit wars, including one that has spanned the last two weeks or so. I left a note today on the talk page and warned the most recent contributors, and will enforce something like 0RR (aka the Dmcdevit solution) for a while on that page. Please don't protect it prematurely. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

That template is a hotbed of serious BLP concerns. Being added to it is similar to labelling someone a racist or terrorist. Kyaa the Catlord 13:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are BLP concerns there, which are complicated by the fact that this is a template rather than an article. The current edit war is over whether to use 'reported' or 'alleged' in a section title. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I slapped {{BLP}} on it. The contents of templates have to comply with WP:BLP in the same way that any other user facing content does. The sourcing will need to appear on every page on which the template appears, so must be in the template, not elsewhere. GRBerry 13:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the more neutral admins watch this template, the better. There was previously some effort to find sources (see the talk page archive) but it died, the template sat quiet for months, and then people started fighting again. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that the article on Dominionism was just as controversial and has recently made significant improvements as far as neutrality and reliable sourcing. The problem with the template is that it doesn't display this sourcing or leave room for counterpoint. --Flex (talk/contribs) 14:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

So basically, taking from the "categorization of people" rules which seem to fit best in this case, all those names may be challenged since noone in that list self-identifies as a Dominionist due to the negative stigma of the branding. Kyaa the Catlord 13:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I would advise you, and anyone else who is thinking to getting involved with that template, to look through the talk page archive to get a sense of what has been tried. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not touching it at this point. Just wanted to get some input and possibly move this portion of the conversation to the BLP noticeboard once I get some ideas hashed out of how to handle templating of living people. This portion of WP needs to be addressed like categorization is so these sorts of BLP concerns can have some policy behind them. Kyaa the Catlord 13:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Playing devil's advocate here - if the template has been causing that much contention, does it add enough to the articles it sits on to make it worth keeping in its current form? Would it be better to have no individuals on it? Is it worth having at all? I'm not saying it should be deleted, or that it should not be, just wondering if this has been considered. Neil ☎ 14:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It has been proposed; see a TFD from 2006 and a discussion on the talk page a year after that (here). — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I've read over the related material to the tfd and found that at the time it was "kept" the consensus was that it would be kept with the caveat that it would be used with care taken in relation to the individuals listed in the template. After reading over the archive and the discussion page, it is clear that this is not the case, inclusion is not being weighed accordingly with WP:BLP and that the individuals need to be removed per BLP since they are not clearly referenced in the template. Is there a review process for TfD rulings where the outcome is not deletion? Maybe it is time to have this template reexamined in a serious, process driven, formal manner. Once again, I'm not making any changes to the template, just airing my concerns as I see them based on the evidence presented on the tfd, the talk page and the related archive. Kyaa the Catlord 15:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If the caveats of the last TFD aren't being met, it may be worth considering resending it to TFD and noting as such. Neil ☎ 19:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In enforcing his 0RR, CBM ended up briefly blocking a user with a history of pugnacity, and is now catching flack for it. I am not qualified to judge between the two, but it might be helpful for uninvolved admins to comment here on whether CBM's action was appropriate. --BlueMoonlet 19:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"A user with a history of pugnacity? That's quite a slur. That's a totally uncalled for personal attack on a highly productive editor. There were 4 editors in support of the consensus version, one opposed (who was going on about Bill Clinton and left-wing journalists) and two apparently neutral. Odd Nature reverted to the consensus version - and Carl blocked him. His first edit in several days. That's utter nonsense. Guettarda 20:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to be critical, much less an attack. I only meant to say that he often finds himself in the middle of conflicts. But even that is not really relevant to the rest of what I was saying, and I agree that it was a poor choice of words, so I have stricken it. --BlueMoonlet 20:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow, Dave Souza found the proper way to deal with the issue without resorting to threats that have no basis in policy. How about dat? •Jim62sch• 21:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Although it was Odd nature's first edit in some time, it was not his first edit in that edit war - he had made the same revert several times before, and his edit served only to continue the edit war. Moreover, I had left a note on his talk page explicitly pointing out that I would block editors for continuing the edit war. If he had not been explicitly warned about it earlier in the day, and had not already participated in the edit war, I wouldmore likely have warned instead of blocking.

All claims of "consensus" here seem to depend on counting the number of editors who favor a particular version - vote counting, in essence. The fact that an edit war had been ongoing for several weeks is clear evidence there isn't consensus about the matter.

I would be glad to hear further comments on the matter from uninvolved admins. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Carl, as I pointed out earlier at least in regard to what constitutes consensus you are incorrect. Multiple editors agreeing on something and a single editor refusing to give any coherent arguments beyond rant about "left-wing journalism" isn't a problem with consensus- any more than if we had a single editor trying to make abortion be defined as "killing of unborn babies" or had "pro-life" defined as "a euphemism for the people who want to take away a woman's right to choose" (to use extreme examples). Disagreement by a minority does not by itself mean there is no consensus. JoshuaZ 21:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that disagreement alone does not mean there is no consensus. Consensus means everyone is willing to live with the content of the page; if people are still actively reverting, that is a sign of a lack of consensus. In any case, the argument about consensus misses the point that there is no exception to WP:3RR or WP:EW for editors who are editing to restore consensus versions, except in cases of clear vandalism, which this is not. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, no consensus doesn't mean that. If consensus meant that *everyone* agreed to live the page as is then whenever a POV pusher came along there would magically not be a consensus. That's not the way things work. JoshuaZ 23:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

JoshuaZ, you are right that "That's not the way things work." What you are wrong about is in your definition of "consensus". Misplaced Pages gives lip service to the idea of consensus; but practice of it has grown less frequent over time to the point that a majority or super-majority is now sometimes mistakenly called consensus. And on some pages, it is not even the majority; just a majority of those not driven off. WAS 4.250 19:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. Or, as WP:CONSENSUS says, "Running roughshod over the (then) minority is the best way to get yourself into almost unlimited amounts of trouble. ... So in summary, wikipedia decision making is not based on formal vote counting ... " SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Please check out WP:PRACTICAL inside WP:CONSENSUS: "Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome." — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

<undent> I should just point out that Carl doubtless acted in good faith, assuming that other editors are as familiar with his interpretation of essays and "0RR" as he is, but the notice given was completely inadequate, merely pointing to "may end up blocked for edit warring (see WP:EW)" which makes no reference to "0RR" that I can see. This looks like policy creep and a lack of basic courtesy in failing to spell out blocking actions before proceeding. In any event, a consensus will have to be reached on the talk page, and even considering blocking involved editors to prevent them from contributing to discussion appears to be high-handed action from an admin who evidently has his own opinions about the continuing dispute. Carl seems to be in a rush to unprotect the template, I strongly recommend seeking consensus first. Of course any agreed changes can be implemented by an admin. .. dave souza, talk 22:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I do see in retrospect that several editors believed they had consensus on the talk page, despite the fact that there was an edit war, and may have thought the edit warring to restore the consensus version of a page is acceptable.

I have no stake in the content of the dominionism template and don't particularly care what it says. I have said that the template has BLP issues, which I realized when I protected it because of a dispute back in April. But I am not personally involved in any content in the template. My concerns about the continuing dispute extend only to stopping the edit war.

I left what I believe it a clear message on the talk page: "Rather than protecting the template, I am leaving a note here: any editor who continues this edit war before consensus is reached on the talk page may end up blocked for edit warring (see WP:EW)." Even if someone doesn't understand exactly what I mean, that sentence surely would encourage them to ask before reverting again. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite agree with JZ's assessment that one user was incoherently crusading against an overwhelming consensus. We were actually having a more or less productive conversation over the last several days, it's just that some people (fault on both sides) were also reverting the page every time they posted to the discussion. Frjohn was hardly incoherent, and only yesterday did the other side finally give their argument in any detail. --BlueMoonlet 00:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Glad to hear it, and I'd hope that normal discussions can resume as this fuss dies down. It's been claimed that this "0RR" action is not thought to be out of the ordinary. From this case it's evident that any such action has to be implemented with considerably more care and courtesy, and if it is to become common, there appears to be a need for agreed guidance rather than this being done on the basis of current guidelines which make no mention of such a procedure. ... dave souza, talk 12:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it must be codified and supported if it is to become policy; and yet, what a horrible policy it would be. Hell, let's just 0RR every controversial article/template/category and be done with any of those nattering, pesky discussions once and for all. No need for page protection, no need to put pages on watchlists (well, except maybe to block those evil 1RR warriors), no need to determine consensus, no need to look at facts, no need for analysis. Sounds like a great 5-year plan to me. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 12:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Dave, You're right about the need for clear notices, and (personally) I plan to be more explicit with warnings in the future.

Jim, WP:BLOCK#Disruption already authorizes blocks for edit warring and links to WP:EW for a definition. This is already part of policy. The reason I went with 0RR rather than 1RR in this case is that the edit war was slow enough I thought the editors would just continue to revert once per day given leeway to do so. Moreover, the involved editors were individually notified on their talk pages. In general, if there is not already an edit war under way, 1RR is more reasonable. Simply protecting pages, rather than blocking the edit warriors, treats the symptoms instead of the cause. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why we still have the WP:3RR. To game the system? I've already suggested something like WP:AN1+n for general edit warring. As for this case, i'd go for a temporary 1RR as 0RR is way too harsh. Anyway, it is already protected now. -- FayssalF - 13:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that 1RR is better if the goal is to prevent an edit war from starting again on a contentious page. In this case, there was a 3 week edit war in which several people rarely or never broke 1RR. If '0RR' sounds bad, replace it with "This is a final warning to stop edit warring or be blocked"; I will use stronger language like that the next time this sort of thing come up. I would never block someone for 0RR without giving them a personal warning first. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Carl, I'm afraid I disagree. Work toward resolving the issue rather than taking a Draconian approach. What in WP:EW permits your actions? I sincerely hope this is not what you are referring to, "The harmonious editing club recommends reverting only once, and then taking it to talk.". I see nothing that supports you in WP:BLOCK#Disruption either. You seem to be inferring far leeway more than the policies allow. Your definition of "edit warrior" is a bit strident, and well, wrong. Reverting to the consensus version hardly makes one an edit warrior (and, no, I don't think the "but there wasn't consensus" arguments above are very compelling). I believe Dave has already pointed this out to you, as has JoshuaZ. You might want to consider rethinking your position. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 13:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Jim, as with 3RR there is no exception that allows edit warring to restore consensus material. If someone thought there was a single problematic editor on the template, there were many ways to resolve the issue without edit warring, such as an RFC or the informal mediation I suggested on the template talk page. Edit warring is the repeated, ongoing reverting of the same content for any reason except clear cases of vandalism, NPOV, etc. This was just a content dispute, nothing more. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Carl, I think that after 2 years I'm pretty clear on what edit-warring is, and what is allowed. And no, this was not truly a content dispute. Nonetheless, the 0RR arguments carry no weight as they are not supported by policy, and you have yet to reply to my two comments regarding the reasons your take on policy are not supported. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 17:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I put a chronology with links at from my viewpoint at User:CBM/Sandbox4, which explains why (I believe) the block agrees with the blocking policy.

I think you are claiming that editors should only be blocked for edit warring if the edit warring is particularly bad, or if you otherwise don't agree with their side of the edit war. In reality, anyone can be blocked for edit warring, after a warning, the same as anyone can be blocked for 3RR even if they are restoring a consensus version of the page. The edit warring itself is a problem, and disruptive by nature, regardless of its intentions. I will be busy for the rest of the day and may not be able to respond again until tonight or tomorrow. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLOCK allows an admin to block for disruption, not for edit warring. Although Carl says "edit warring is considered disruptive by nature (WP:EW)", that statement is not supported by the guideline (EW) to which Carl links. Edit warring can be disruptive, but repeatedly reverting someone who repeatedly alters the article to reflect his distrust of "secular" sources is no more disruptive than is reverting vandalism. We always remove editorial comments inserted by disgruntled editors. So while there was an editing dispute, there was no evidence of disruption. So when Carl threatened to block, he did so without basis in the blocking policy. Odd Nature was correct to ignore Carl's threats, since his threats were totally inappropriate, and were based on nothing more than his interpretation of an opinion by Dmcdevit. Admins are not empowered to create policy. Nor are we given any special authority. We are simply given a few extra tools, based on the judgment that we won't abuse them.

Carl started out justifying his block on the basis of an opinion expressed by another editor. When that was challenged, he made up a new excuse. Misplaced Pages is a project to write an encyclopaedia, it isn't a project to create a new bureaucracy. So Carl made a mistake. Big deal. Time to do the adult thing, apologise to ON, quit wasting people's time, and let them write an encyclopaedia. Which is, after all, the only reason we should be here. Guettarda 19:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I have stated that I agree with User:Dmcdevit/Thoughts that rather than treating the symptom by protecting pages we should treat the cause by preventing editors from pursuing edit wars. I have also pointed out that WP:BLOCK lists edit warring as a an example of the sort of disruption for which editors may be blocked, with no further qualification. Guardetta, I find your your arguments to the contrary are less than convincing, especially since you were a participant in that edit war. If you wish to pursue the matter in other venues, I'll participate as appropriate. But lacking any convincing reasoning to the contrary, I remain willing to block editors for edit warring after appropriate warning. My reasoning for the block is laid out at User:CBM/Sandbox4. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Speaking from the perspective of an editor and admin with zero involvement in this issue, anyone who can convince me that this template should exist at all wins a pony ride and a box of oreos. Raymond Arritt 18:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't like ponies...oreos (especially chocolate filled) I like. My issue here isn't the template itself, it's the seeming inability of one admin to understand why 0RR is bad (or why putting words in my mouth is also bad). Seems that the admin is trying to create new policy out of thin aire. Having read the sandbox I still see absolutely no justification for a 0RR policy. Of course, this is like batting my head against a wall, but so be it. 0RR seems like giving a person a traffic ticket for being in the intersection when the damned light turns yellow. 19:01, 26 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim62sch (talk • contribs)

I suggest nominating the template for deletion, and moving the discussion from here to the appropriate templates for deletion page. - Jehochman 19:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Do it; does the person who TfDs it get more than oreos? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Original, DoubleStuff, mint, chocolate, peanut butter or golden?  :) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and a ride on a stinky pony. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 20:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Done - see here. Choose your weapons. Raymond Arritt 01:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Script question

Is there a script for admins which helps with closing AfD's? Tagging numerous articles can be very time consuming, but I'm not familiar with the tools we have available. --Haemo 17:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

There's Misplaced Pages:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/CloseAFD.js. (Wow, I just noticed that script was a security risk; I've fixed that, though, by protecting the page. It's important to make sure that scripts are either in userspace with a .js extension, or fully protected, before including them.) --ais523 17:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Good tool, though not much use unless you can delete the articles. Wikidudeman 17:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I just tried installing it & I can't make it work - am I being really stupid here? — iridescent 23:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I tried it too...didn't work for me either. Does it work on Mozilla Firefox? bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 23:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Works fine for me. Been using it for a long time. The one unusual thing about it is that you have to be editing the AfD, not just looking at it, and then the Close tab appears. That confused me for awhile. -- Gogo Dodo 00:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Still not working for me. Possibly it clashes with Twinkle, or doesn't work in Firefox? — iridescent 00:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It works with Firefox as that is what I use. I don't know about Twinkle as I don't use Twinkle. You might try copying the version I have in my monobook.js to see if it works for you, but the only differences are mine has a subst: and some extra comment delimiters in it (which I just fixed in the article source), but I don't think that could have caused the script not to work. -- Gogo Dodo 04:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

You broke the script by removing the delimiters (I've reverted). {{/doc}} is not valid JavaScript, so it needs to be commented out, likewise with </pre>. --ais523 09:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The change only broke the script for those who are transcluding it directly (via importScript() or similar), which they shouldn't be doing anyway. Those actually following the instructions given at the top of the script (copy the code and paste it into your monobook.js) would not be affected in any way. In fact, it strikes me that if we'd been "breaking" all the scripts at WP:JS like that from the beginning, the security problem you mentioned before wouldn't even exist. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Finally got it to work. For some reason, the script on the page doesn't work, but the one on Gogo Dodo's page does. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 05:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)I did some experimenting and it is the original commenting style done to hide the {{/doc}} that broke the code when you copied and pasted the script per the instructions. It appears that Firefox does not like a closing comment delimiter that does not have a corresponding open delimiter.

To fix it and not break anybody's usage of the script either through copying and pasting or using importScript() (contrary to instructions), I moved the instructions to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/CloseAFD, rewrote the instructions to include a link to go to get the script instead of listing the script below, and then undid the transclusion of the {{/doc}} in the CloseAFD.js article. Hopefully that solves everybody's problem. =) -- Gogo Dodo 05:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Userpage copies of CSD list

There are more than a dozen users who have local copies of the speedy deletion list in their own userspace. The best example is User:Cyde/List of candidates for speedy deletion, which is transcluded onto Misplaced Pages:Deletion today, so is apparently "sanctioned". Now several other users have taken to transcluding that page on their own user pages, so the net effect is that any admin who looks at the "What links here" list for a candidate article has to wade through all these user pages to figure out what cleanup work (if any) needs to be done after deletion. What is the point? Isn't a periodic browse and purge of Category:Candidates for speedy deletion sufficient? Can we stop this practice, please? 21:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with having a copy of the speedy deletion list. It's not harmful or detrimental to the community or the encyclopedia, and it's pretty handy. I see no reason to discontinue the practice. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 22:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Admins who perform the speedy delete are asked to cleanup links. The more links to sort during cleanup, the less likely the cleanup work gets done. So having lots of copies of the does harm the encyclopedia, by causing real garbage links to be left in place. GRBerry 22:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I too have found these links annoying in the past when going through deleted/CSD articles. That said, at least now we can sort the what links here page to only show main namespace (an option that I either only found out about in the past few months, or a new feature).-Andrew c  22:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I would think that's it's almost as "handy" to wikilink Cyde's page on your user page than to transclude it, and would certainly help reduce the clutter. Andrwsc 22:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Links to a speedily-deleted article anywhere other than the main and template namespaces (and maybe Image and Category) generally don't really matter. It's easy to sort through those, so I don't think this is a major problem. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This sounds more like the general problem we have when ever we use whatlinkshere and use templates. Not sure what to do for the short term, but hopefully a software fix will make all of this easier in the long run. -- Ned Scott 22:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

We have a link to whatlinkshere on the "confirm deletion" page. What if there were also a link that limited it to mainspace? That would be easy enough to do ("&namespace=0"). Chick Bowen 04:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Templates are also likely places to hold links to speedied articles. EVula // talk // ☯ // 06:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ricardo Lagos Perez

I've indefblocked Ricardo Lagos Perez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (extended from 1 week), and full-protected User talk:Ricardo Lagos Perez for a week to give him time to get bored, after he responded to his initial block (for joke comments in RFAs and creating a nonsense nomination, and continuing to post nonsense after a final warning) by filling his talkpage with a million bytes of garbage and the comment "Waste Wiki Bandwidth!!!". Obviously, this is slightly out-of-process; if anyone wants to unblock/unprotect, do feel free; I do realise the protection's preventing him from requesting an unblock. (As an obvious sockpuppet with no valid edits, I can't exactly people rushing to his defense.) I've also temporarily semiprotected my talk page, for the record, as a barrage of angry IPs have been vandalising it ever since. — iridescent 23:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Or u could have easily indef'ed him for a violation of username with Ricardo Lagos being a living individual... 68.218.185.214 00:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I checked - there's only three ghits on the name, which makes me assume it's not a celebrity. — iridescent 00:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if there's any relation to User:Ricardo Lagos, who was blocked alrady for a name violation, but was on the verge of being indef. blocked for repeated hoaxing. Corvus cornix 16:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

How did this happen?

I really don't think that this was done on purpose but I just wanted to bring this to administration attention to see if it can be prevented in the future. Tonight I suddenly noticed this message "To have free hotline sex please dial: 1 360 xxx xxxx." at the top of the List of Doctor Who serials. Knowing wikipedias strict no advertising policy (:-D) I went into the edit mode to take it these words out but they weren't to be found. Now I am not very computer literate but as I looked closer I realized that it was hidden in this command {{Edit-top-section}}. As I searched through the edit history I found that this sentence had been there for quite awhile. I finally located the edits that brought it about. They are here and here . This is one big reason that I know that it is a mistake of some kind as Edokter is not a vandal but is an admin and valued contributer to the Dr Who wikiproject. I have posted this here so that those of you who do know the ins and outs of these wikicommands can determine if this is just a one off error or vandalism done on some other place within wikipedia. I'll be posting a link to this thread for Edoktor as soon as I am done here but it is three am in Europe right now so he may not get to it for several hours. Thanks in advance for your time in this matter. MarnetteD | Talk 01:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks as though someone may have already fixed this as the phone number message doesn't show up anymore when you click on the second link that I provided above. I'm still curious what may have caused this though. MarnetteD | Talk 01:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It was this template that was vandalized. • Lawrence Cohen 01:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the followup. That was a way to vandlize that I hadn't seen before but that I will know how to look for now. Thanks again. MarnetteD | Talk 01:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Another consideration is that it wasn't an advert, but a personal attack - it isn't necessarily a "legitimate" service providers number but that of an individual. Any investigation of the vandal may need to include that scenario. LessHeard vanU 10:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the followup note LessHeard vanU. Actually, I was joking about it being an advert. It looks like Luna Santin first reverted the vandalism and then removed all trace of it from the edit history. I'm sure this admin also admonished the offending vandal so it looks like all is well. Thanks again to all for helping me learn about this situation. MarnetteD | Talk 13:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay. For future reference, this being the admin board, please use short words and (if possible) type s*l*o*w*l*y and not include jokes that do not involve penguins and chocolate biscuits... ;~) LessHeard vanU 14:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ouch, how did that slip by? Well, it's been reverted and the edit has been deleted. — Edokter • Talk • 13:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:TURNIP

A new essay. Durova 01:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that picture a radish? — iridescent 01:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I got it straight from the turnip article. Durova 02:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Might go well with some MUSTARD. Will 02:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

And BEANS... Caknuck 06:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

"WP:TURNIP" is fine as a shortcut, but the essay itself needs a more meaningful title than "Misplaced Pages:Turnip". Hesperian 02:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Durova 02:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Now the whole crew is here. El_C 04:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems Misplaced Pages has to have an essay on every old saying. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 01:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Pages that need deleting - monotonous, but easy

Everything at User:Betacommand/Sandbox 2 is an orphaned talk page, and therefore eligible for deletion under CSD G8. While this task is monotonous, it is also easy: all you do is click the link given and delete the page. If you use tools like automagic delete, you can do dozens at a time; the Firefox extension "snap links" and User:^demon/CSD AutoReason also speed up the process. Help is appreciated - but more importantly, it's a great way to pad your deletion count. ;-) Picaroon (t) 04:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Please nobody do this without actually looking at the pages to make sure that they don't contain orphaned deletion discussions; if they do, it's normally best to move them (or the relevant part) to AfD or VfD subpage space instead of deleting. (I've had to file DRvs based on this before.) --ais523 09:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This is how snap links and automagic delete are used. Pick a couple dozen pages, open them all in one click, and scan through them making sure there's nothing valuable. Then either delete the ones that have nothing valuable one by one, or close these tabs, run automagic delete, and open the links corresponding to all the pages you just checked. Presto, gone. Picaroon (t) 18:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes. No deletion is easy, it's just that some cases are easier than others. WP:CSD#G8 clearly says that deletion discussions not logged elsewhere are exceptions, until they are moved. There could also be other exceptions, perhaps leaving a talk page for future users to understand why a particular page is salted. It may not be common practice, but its a possibly useful exception. And why would you want to pad your deletion count? - Mtmelendez 09:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why, but the suggestion works to attract people to do otherwise ungratifying work. Who am I to complain about misplaced priorities? Picaroon (t) 18:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

What they said. I'm currently plodding through M (at Mar...). So far I have found articles on Mariano Santo, Marlon Brando Sr., Makoszowy‎, and Mark Von Hagen hiding in talkspace. I sent one page to userspace, undeleted a wrongly deleted article, and found a request for translation which I did. I still have a few to think about. If we don't get hundreds more pages in article space after purging these pages then something is very wrong. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

A quick glance has also found similar lists from Interiot (16k pages as of April), and from Mr.Z-man (from May). If someone could at least remove the red links from the lists, I think they'd be easier to deal with. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

You bastards : - ) . I was going to get at least 10,000 deletions from that list. There's a great tool on the toolserver that can easily generate a list from a particular namespace (see here). You all foiled my plan. Oh well; I have other lists. Great work to the admins who've gone after the list. --MZMcBride 21:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

My list was copied from Betacommand's. I was using it to determine progress made. Mr.Z-man 02:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Um, could someone undelete Talk:W. Albert Noyes, Jr. and Talk:William Albert Noyes, Jr., please? I'd do it myself, but I created the pages. They were what I call "pre-creation" talk page notes, and were notes to remind whoever created the articles to create the redirects (because the redirects were already linked from other pages). It's similar to how deletion discussion on a talk page is kept (though this concept of pre-creation talk page notes is sufficiently rare that it probably isn't documented anywhere). Maybe a talk page template is needed to prevent deletion of such pages? If anyone can think of an easier way to do this "pre-creation talk page notes" thing, I'd be grateful. Carcharoth 00:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I also note that Talk:List of heterosexuals was incorrectly deleted, probably as part of the above process. This created a redlink at Misplaced Pages:Archived delete debates/2003. Though admittedly the content is not much, it is still part of the early history of the project. A simple check of "what links here" would have revealed this. Please can people be more careful and not assume that the above list was all OK to delete. Talk:Torah Cosmos is another example, this time with an actual deletion discussion, as was Talk:George Francis Cruickshank. What is this? "Delete without looking at what you are deleting-day"? Here is another one: Talk:Diamond theory. See Misplaced Pages:Archived delete debates/Jan to Apr 2004, and then see all the early pages at Misplaced Pages:Archived delete debates. I suspect the above list being blindly deleted has created lots of redlinks in those old deletion debates. This has happened before, so can we please find a permanent solution to this that avoids the "orphaned talk pages" rule being used unthinkingly to delete old deletion debates? Carcharoth 00:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The previous "prevention method" involved an archive tag prominently placed at the top of the talk pages. For example, Talk:Wilfredo G. Santa clearly said: "This page is preserved as an archive of the associated article page's "votes for deletion" debate (the forerunner of articles for deletion). Please do not modify this page, nor delete it as an orphaned talk page." - please can we avoid talk of "padding deletion counts" if this is the sort of thing that results? Carcharoth 01:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps the best way is to move those discussions and their histories to a sub-page of the VfD debates or WP:ADD. Then delete the talk pages. - Mtmelendez 02:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably. But moving leaves behind redirects that might still get deleted as "orphans". The incoming links would have to be redirected to the new location. I suspected no-one has been bothered to deal with it yet (though this has been done for some of them). What concerns me more is that some of these were obviously not deletion material, but they still got deleted. I know we are all human, but that is not very impressive. Carcharoth 02:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion debates on talk pages are going to be years old. Any consensus that old can almost be considered moot and any reason given might be based on policy that is quite different now, not to mention the facts themselves could change substantially in that time. New articles would not be speedy deleted if the original version was deleted 2 years ago after such a discussion and I don't know how well DRV can determine the legitimacy of such old debates. I guess what I'm saying is: Do we really need to keep these around? Also, it appears that the deleted revisions of some these articles was lost as well. Mr.Z-man 03:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason for non-admins not to see them, and there was never a discussion on deleting those particular pages - they just happened to be deleted because of what namespace they were in, and they were created before namespace differentiation was a big issue as it is now. When dealing with historical pages, I generally move their histories into a place where they face no risk of being speedily deleted under the current criteria. I usually delete the offending redirect with a note in the deletion log where the history has been moved to - deletion log entries are visible to everyone, and they now show when you are in the edit screen for a non-existent page. The content of Misplaced Pages:Archived delete debates is not set in stone - it is just a list of archive pages. Therefore I see no problems with moving the talk pages with deletion discussions into a subpage of Misplaced Pages:Archived delete debates, noting where they were before, and fixing as many links as possible. I agree that care should be taken when deleting pages from arbitrary lists like orphaned talk pages or cross-namespace redirects - they may contain valuable history. Graham87 08:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:UAA

There are 11 reports waiting at Misplaced Pages:Usernames for administrator attention. And out of curiosity, can non-admins remove reports. There are a couple reported by the bot that I doubt are violations. SashaCall /_(Talk!) 06:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, UAA is hardly a "ohmygod we must act now"-type board. A bit of a backlog isn't the end of the world.
As for non-admins removing reports, I'd say so, especially if they're bot reports (which are more likely to be false-positives). EVula // talk // ☯ // 06:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd certainly be happy for non-admins to remove bot reports that are clear false positives. Experience shows that many usernames that are genuinely going to be troublesome accounts will quickly get caught at WP:AIV. I'd advise against non-admins removing other users reports however, unless they are clearly bad faith. Pedro :  Chat  09:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

If you know what you are doing you are just as welcome to remove names as admins are. 1 != 2 15:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Pile-on please do remove obvious non-vioaltions, especially from the bot reports. -- Flyguy649 15:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Catching BLP violations

I've just returned to low-level editing, but out of a curiosity as to how BLP issues might have improved on Misplaced Pages I began some random google checking. I ran a search for "Living people" "The neutrality of" site:wikipedia.org "accusations" and I've found a number of problematic articles with uncited accusations = Elsebeth Baumgartner (since speedied) Bob Mulholland - and that's just on the first page.

A few suggestions

1. Are there people willing to check through some of the rest of the search results?
2. What about repeating the search with other words that "accusations" like "controversy"? (or maybe there are better searches)
3. Could someone consider designing a script to look for BLPs which have paragraphs which 1)lack references altogether OR have {fact} or {citation needed} templates AND 2) in the same paragraph contain flag words such as "sexuality" "accusation" "abuse" "gay" "racist" "criticism" "affair"?

I shudder to think what might be found.--Doc 15:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression you had scrambled your password. Viridae 15:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I did. But I incompetently mis-managed removing my e-mail.--Doc 15:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahh. That explains that one. Viridae 15:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back, Doc. A Train 18:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Welcome back Doc. I speedied the other article. I don't mind working my way through any list you can come up with. Spartaz 19:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
• Perhaps we should create a BLP-specific notability template, to allow for quick identification of disputed biographies. FCYTravis 21:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Anyone interested might like to take a look at User:Doc glasgow/BLP search.--Doc 14:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

User block templates

I've added {{UsernameHardBlocked}} and {{Vandalblock}} to Template:Blocksnotice/inner, but the two templates themselves don't seem consistant with the others in terms of format. Could an admin please look at them and make them consistant with the format of the other block templates? Thanks.--Avant Guard 18:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I've also added them to the blocks section of Misplaced Pages:Template messages/User talk namespace.--Avant Guard 19:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid

The Arbitration Committee has adopted a motion in the above arbitration case, providing: "As the Committee has been unable to determine which actions in this matter, if any, were undertaken in bad faith, and as the community appears to be satisfactorily dealing with the underlying content dispute, the case is dismissed with no further action being taken." This notice is given by a Clerk on behalf of the Arbitration Committee. Newyorkbrad 19:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

yaf making bad faith changes to "Gun Show" page

Can some one give me a hand here? I recently updated this page with a number of government studies by the ATF and Department of Justice, and this guy keeps reverting all of them. I am new to wiki, but I know this bad faith editing is not allowed. Could an administrator step and and make a fair edit on the page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timjohnscsgv (talk • contribs) 20:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I blocked both User:Timjohnscsgv and User:Yaf for breaking the 3rr, and will be watching this page going forward. Cool Hand Luke 20:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record, the place to "tattle" on other users is WP:ANI, not this noticeboard. Also, admins are not here to step in and make fair edits, nor are we here to settle content disputes. In those regards, we are just regular editors. Our contributions to the main article space hold equal weight to other users. Please consider Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution in the future when involved in an edit conflict.-Andrew c  22:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Heathen42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - block review and further sanctions?

• • • • The deleted edit is of a graphic nature, and should not be accessed in a sensitive environment

I blocked the above account for 24 hours, per an AIV report, regarding the creation and recreation of a "story". I imposed a short block while I requested review and comments regarding further action.

My main concern is that todays edits appear, from a brief review of the contrib history, to be out of character for this editor. The few other edits have been pretty innocuous, and many remain. This appears to be a compromised or soured account, but I would like some other eyes/opinions. LessHeard vanU 20:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

WHY did you not warn me not to read that page? I feel like scrubbing the hands which touched the computer with disinfectant. — iridescent 20:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, my bad... I've place a general warning on top. Anyhows, I thought us admins were toughies and could eat a bear for breakfast... er, were inurred against these things. LessHeard vanU 20:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Too small a sample size to really say if this is a compromised account. Could be just someone who got bored with legitimate editing, or whose friend decided to have a go at vandalism while he wasn't looking. I'd say just keep an eye on the account and indef block if the vandalism continues. If it was a legitimate account that got compromised, there's not much lost, so the user can just create a new account. android79 20:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sticking to the bear facts of the case (sorry!), it's a more "intruiging" article than the usual G1-fodder, I'll give it that... If the editor's got a history of valid contributions, I suppose there's probably no offense here - lord knows, there's enough other "internet meme" crap clogging up our servers. Salt it and hope it goes away would be my personal preference, although I guess if Every time you masturbate God kills a kitten survived an AFD, maybe this is what constitutes legitimate content these days. — iridescent 20:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I will leave a comment on the editors talkpage to the effect that such material is unencyclopedic (there is no commentary regarding history, links etc.), that recreating deleted material is inappropriate, and that further examples may incur an indef block. Re the salting, can a cruet inclined admin do the honours - I'm not sure I cut the mustard. LessHeard vanU 21:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Not sure I could bear to... (Not sure it actually warrants salting, as I suppose someone could theoretically write something valid on the subject a la goatse.cx.)

Qst (talk · contribs)

I'd like to request community input into Qst (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). It's been three months now since he was banned, and after talking to him on IRC, I strongly believe he now understands his mistakes, and believe he could come back as a constructive user like he once was. He actually sounds very sincere about how he acted previously. There have also been no further instances of sockpuppetry since the ban started. I'd like to have the community ban removed under two strict conditions;

1. He is placed under community civility parole - any administrator may block him for upto one week if any of his edits are deemed to be incivil.
2. He is placed under mediation - he has already agreed on IRC that I could be his mediator.

I really hope that as a community we can forgive a user that although has made mistakes, did give a lot to the project. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Could we also ban him from interacting with "certain" editors? -- John Reaves 21:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think that's workable in a collaberative environment - the civility parole should cover that anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems a little idealistic, but I say we give him a last chance. -- John Reaves 21:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm curious to hear what others say, but I think it's a good idea to unban him if he is truly sorry about his actions. He actually did make a lot of good edits in his time here. I support the unblock and unban, but at the same time, also support a re-instatement of them if he strays back into the behavior that got him banned in the first place. I assume he'd be editing under the Qst account as well? Acalamari 22:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

He wanted to start a fresh account and let a couple of trusted users know the name of the account - I made it clear that this was not going to happen, so yes, he would be editing under the Qst account. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That's fine then; I didn't think he would get to edit under a new account or one of the others. Acalamari 23:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I supported his ban, but I'd also support letting him resume editing. One further suggested condition would be a prohibition on running for adminship for several (at least 6, preferably 9-12) months. Much of his problematic behaviour emerged in conjunction with his RFAs. -- Flyguy649 22:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I too would be willing to allow Qst a chance to come back and edit, and to reintegrate himself into the community, because, following my discussion with him on IRC, I believe that he is truly sorry and has realised his mistakes. I also agree with FlyGuy's idea in relation to RFA; that seemed to be the source of the problem last time. However, if he can prove his stability, if he can successfully prove his ability to administrate, he may yet make a good sysop sometime in the future. -- Anonymous Dissident 22:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's clear that his RfA's normally cause him to be disruptive, so I would certainly endorse no RfA's for 6 months. Ryan Postlethwaite 22:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, an unban sounds ok, with the civility parole for a period of time, I see no need for RfA prohibition since any RfAs the community dislikes will be unsuccessful anyway. GDonato (talk) 22:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

1.) We need to know what his username is. 2.) He needs to completely stay away from the editors who he has been in conflict with (me, Riana, Moreschi, etc.) 3.) Put on RFA probation 1 year. After this, I can not see giving this person any more chances, because he has exhausted my and others patiences. Another sock made after he disrupts if he is unbanned and placed on parole, indef. ban. Miranda 23:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

We can't make him stay away from users in a collaborative environment. The civility parole would mean that if he approached those editors in a an incivil manor, he would get blocked. Let's be honest though, some of those users who he went mad at did inflame the situation and weren't the most civil themselves. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Also note, Miranda, that he will be editing under the name Qst. -- Anonymous Dissident 23:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent/edid conflict) To others, let us remind ourselves why he is banned. He has also sent harassing e-mails to people after he was banned, which to me was very disrespectful, but I apologize I cannot forgive what he did. I know that you may be friends with him, Ryan, but I cannot interact with Qst anymore due to running out of patience with him. How many apologies/chances are we going to give him until we are going to be firm and say, "we are through with this, sorry but due to your behavior, you are not welcome to edit"? I have seen users who make lesser offenses and given fewer chances than Qst and are banned indef. Miranda 23:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

He got banned after a tiny discussion. I'm not friends with him, I think he's been a dick at some points, but as I said previously, other users didn't help the situation and often made it worse - it takes two to tango. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It may take two to tango, but let's not forget how many chances Qst has already had: Qst, The Sunshine Man, Rlest, Ds.mt, and maybe I'm missing one or two. I'd say Qst represented more than just one person in this tango. - auburnpilot talk 00:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Tellyaddict...that's the one I missed. - auburnpilot talk 00:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Aquasplash was the other one, which he used very briefly. Acalamari 01:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with an unban provided he uses a declared account and any administrator (even those who "dealt" with him last time) can apply one week blocks for any incivility, personal attacks, etc., and the ban becomes one year after five blocks (following traditional RfAr enforcement). This 'parole' extends to reverting to readd comments on other people's tak pages in addition to any incivility towards anyone. Sarcastic "Ha ha, I'm back" comments included.

Furthermore, any sockpuppetry, vandalism etc. incurs an immediate indefinite ban, with no avenue of community appeal. I would also agree to a twelve-month RfA parole, but looking at it Qst will never be granted administrator rights within the next couple of years, so it's no worries. Daniel 00:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've dealt with Qst on a number of occasions, and I found that he had good intentions (most of the time), but he always screwed up along the way. I think an unblock is appropriate, permitted he is placed on civility parole. Any future violations of Misplaced Pages policy (namely sockpuppetry, vandalism, civility) will result in a unquestionable indefinite ban. Nishkid64 (talk) 00:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Further comment on the proposed RFA ban. The reason I am suggesting this is not because I think he would pass (it would take a very long time for him to recover from several blocks and a community ban). It is to protect User:QST from himself. I hope, if the ban is overturned, he comes back and contributes positively. But I don't want him to confuse "things going well" with the possibility for a successful RFA. If he starts an RFA I am concerned that the problems would resurface. So the RFA ban is merely to ensure that he understands that adminship is not an attainable goal for some time. -- Flyguy649 01:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree to an unblock on the conditions noted at User:Daniel/Qst Provisions, and these only. Daniel 01:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that civility parole and mentorship are enough - civility was his only cause of disruption, not revert warring really. I've studied Qst quite a bit and I think the other paroles are a little too much. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Daniel's provisions to unblock this user. And, Ryan, yes, he did revert war. Miranda 01:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The revert-warring was for other user's talk pages, so I have qualified it. Daniel 01:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Input: Terms of unblocking (probation)

Actually, simply this provision:-

Qst (talk · contribs) is placed on civility parole for two years. If he makes any edits which are judged by any administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, assumptions of bad faith, provocative in nature, readding removed comments, or dickish in nature, then he may be blocked for a period up to one week at the blocking administrator's discretion. After five such blocks, the maximum block time is increased to one year.

Much simpler. Daniel 01:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fair, but I would decrease it to one year. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

<mediation>18 months? Daniel 01:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but I guess if he's been an angel after a year he can always request it to be shortened. 18 months it is then if everyone else agrees. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this user's "final chance" should consist of five chances at which point he's blocked for a year. Personally, I support him being allowed to edit again iff he knows that if he is disruptive again, that he will be indefinitely blocked. --Deskana (talk) 12:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I have talked to Qst off-Misplaced Pages and have observed his increasing maturity over the month, and agree with very little hesitation that he could now be allowed back into our community, albeit placed under very close supervision for the initial period. He seems to have seen his errors and is willing to correct them. I agree to the terms of the parole laid out above (and believe, from my previous conversations with him, that he believes these to be fair also), but I think 6 months of parole is more than enough - it's a long time on Misplaced Pages. (A few months and he's almost a different person, now. It's a long time when you're a teenager too, you do a lot of growing up). ~ Riana ⁂ 09:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC) edited 10:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Further Further Comment - Its good to see that this prolific editor will be back editing on Misplaced Pages. He had issues which was mentioned above and while chatting with him on IRC and through e-mail, he has shown that he is remorseful for what he has done and and as Ryan noted he will return as a constructive editor and as far as his adminship dream, hehe, it will remain unfulfilled for I believe 1 year (that will be good enough) and Ryan is a really a good Mediator and his interaction with Qst has been excellent and he might just as well steer him to a better path..Good Luck..--Cometstyles 12:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment – Like Riana, I have also talked to Qst off-wiki, and feel he is genuinely sorry for the actions he made under his accounts. He is growing in maturity, and is very meticulous about what he says. The provisions were prudently made and should help him become a functional member of Misplaced Pages again, as is his wont. Yes, he revert-warred; yes, he was a dick at some times; yes, he was uncivil at some times. But we've all been or done those things at one point or another in our wiki-lives. I have one more condition that may not be liked by some, though I will lay it out to be discussed: Qst is barred from violating any of the provisions off-wiki as well. Multiple infractions may result in a block not more than 48 hours in duration (note that this will not count toward the possibility of the one-year block). (This is purely precautionary, as some people will inevitably try to bait him on and off-wiki about various matters.) Other than that, I have no further things to say, and wish to welcome Qst back into the community. Regards, —Animum (etc.) 13:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment from PrestonH - I talk to Qst via IRC chat, and I believe Qst has cooled down and has learned his lesson. Based on the fact that he is prone to trolling after RfA, I can support his unblock under two conditions...

1. Put on civility parole for at least 6 months. He has cooled down but who knows what will happen next.
2. Put on RfA parole for a year based on what I said above.

He is a great user and I wish Qst would be back in the community soon. PrestonH 16:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest that Qst be allowed to edit his talk page, so that people who are not IRC regulars can have a chance to talk to him? --Iamunknown 00:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Qst was unprotected about 12 hours ago, so I don't see why he can't use it now. -- Flyguy649 00:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for point that out, I did not notice it. --Iamunknown 01:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Unbanned

I've unbanned Qst per these conditions, I've shortened the parole to 1 year, per consensus and my own belief that anything grater isn't required. I hope everyone can work constructively with Qst now and refraid provoking him. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Pages that need undeleting - monotonous, but easy

Please see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Pages that need deleting - monotonous, but easy, in case anyone missed it. :-) I would deal with the undeletion of those deleted old talk page deletion discussions myself, but I'm nearly done for the night. Also, there are probably a lot more than just the ones I pointed out. Carcharoth 01:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that I got all the ones that you listed and on the pages that you referenced. I did not restore anything that was deleted prior to this week, but the next most recent was from August, I think. If I missed any, let me know. I'll do more if I have redlinks supplied. --After Midnight 02:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Carcharoth 02:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Article tagging dispute

This is probably a content dispute, but there are intimations of requests for admin action being made, and I'm going to be away for the next few days, so I thought I'd drop a note off here in the hope that some fresh pairs of eyes and inputs can help de-escalate things if needed. I'm going to state how I see things, and hopefully others will add their side of things if needed. Forgive me if I get anything wrong in what follows. User:BrownHairedGirl recently came across some articles about locations in Middle-earth, and tagged them for notability and some other problems. After the tags were removed she nominated the articles for AfD (I think that discussing with the editor in question would have been more productive). Most of the discussion took place at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Gondor, though some took place at the other AfD debates and at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle-earth. Some of the discussions were productive and useful, and it was made clear that work was being done (albeit slowly) on these and related articles. What I didn't expect was what happened next, which was a mass tagging of around 150 articles. Some relevant links are User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#Mass_tagging and User_talk:BrownHairedGirl#A_start, as well as Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Update. A similar case of mass tagging was discussed back in August, see here. Obviously WikiProject Middle-earth needs to work harder on these articles (establishing notability, merging, and referencing to reliable sources), but I'd like to ask again - what is acceptable tagging behaviour? Is it acceptable to tag dozens of articles (around 150) in one go? How slowly and how fast is it expected that work will be done? Another question I have is whether it is acceptable to say that an article will be nominated for deletion if a tag is removed? There must be better, less confrontational ways to get people to take notice of tags placed on articles, like discussing on a talk page, for example. What followed was a mass reversal of the tagging, with a mass reversal of the reversals. I added some sources to some of the articles and removed the tags, thinking I'd satisfied the request, but slightly different tags were re-added, which was fair enough, but still a bit disappointing. I intend to add more sources, and have been trying to discuss the whole issue with BrownHairedGirl. We are (I think) making progress, but it has been frustrating at times (for both of us, I think). I think my concerns can be summed up as how to get the balance right between pushing people to improve articles, while not pressuring them with implicit threats of deletion debates and dozens of tags. Carcharoth 02:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

As per my comments on BHG's talk page, I think the appropriate forum for this conversation is Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction), as that's where the people best qualified to comment will be. Having the conversation here runs the risk of reinforcing the "Admins are a decision-making elite" myth/attitude. — iridescent 02:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Carcharoth is right that it has been frustrating! There have been several difficulties in all this, including what appears to be a widespread lack of awareness amongst participants in WikiProject Middle-earth of the notability guidelines. This has unfortunately included several instances of misleading guidance being given to project members, such as claiming that references to the work of Tolkien's son Christopher are sufficient, when as his father's literary executor, posthumous editor and finisher-of-uncompleted works, he is clearly not independent of the subject as required by WP:NOTE and WP:FICTION. However, after further discussion on my talk page, it became clear that Carcharoth had simply misunderstood the guidelines. That happens sometimes — we all learn as we go — and I think that having cleared up that misunderstanding we should be much closer to finding a way forward.

However, I am disappointed that Carcharoth's statement here omitted to mention that immediately after my initial tagging of a dozen or so articles (and before any AfD nominations), I initiated a discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Notability_of_articles (I posted there rather than to the articles' talkpages, because it is better to centralise discussion). I should also point out that the editor IronGargoyle used admin tools to simply mass-revert the addition of the tags (see User talk:IronGargoyle#Re:_Tags_you_removed), and declined an invitation by Carcharoth to discuss the issue, preferring to assume bad faith and dismiss the tagging as "disruptive retaliatory mass-tagging" ... and that it was IronGargoyle who removed the tags from these articles back in August, the subject of Carcharoth's above-referenced ANI complaint. Ten weeks after those tags were removed, the vast majority of the articles concerned remained wholly unreferenced, which rather highlights why the tags had been applied in the first place.

As to whether deletion is an appropriate option, it might be helpful to point out that every time an editor starts a new article, it says in bold text on the edit screen Articles that do not cite reliable published sources are likely to be deleted. If editors reject the tagging of articles to highlight the lack of adequate references, it seems perverse for them to complain if deletion is contemplated instead.

However, Iridescent is right: this would be better discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction). If the members of WikiProject Middle-earth want Tolkien's work to be treated as an exception to wikipedia' policies and guidelines, let's discuss removing those guidelines or amending to make middle earth an exception. I think that the progress made last night probably makes such a discussion redundant, but if other editors feel that it's worth having, then Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction) is indeed the place for it.

Just one thing, though: if an IronGargoyle again uses admin tools to mass revert the addition of {{unreferenced}} or similar tags to unreferenced or under-referenced articles, I will raise the matter again here. Admin tools should not be used to disrupt efforts to improve the quality of articles by inviting editors to ensure that they meet wikipedia's core content policies. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Just before we continue this discussion over at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction), I wanted to add that the concern that Carcharoth is raising is not so much of what issues you had over notability - because we do see that there is a need in Tolkien-related articles for a balance between primary sources and reliable sources independent of them in order to establish "independent notability." In fact, we are currently discussing on what system to set up for notability and references in the WikiProject. What he was questioning was the mass tagging and the AfD nominations that quickly followed. It was good that you had stepped up and raised ths issue onto the WikiProject talkpage, but there was so little time given between the the time you brought the issue on the talkpage and nominating some of the articles for AfD. It seemed to the members of the WikiProject as if we were being forced to fix dozens and dozens of tagged articles within a span of one day! While I do think Irongargoyle should have followed Uthanc's advice - it was Uthanc, not Carcharoth (so you do have one more member of the WikiProject who agrees that a discussion should've followed) - to discuss it with you in regards to mass tagging, I'm not sure if following Irongargoyle's mass removal with quickly putting those articles for AfD while we were having a discussion over at the WikiProject about the very same topic of notability with so little time given to the members for improvement was the right course of action. Your justification for putting those articles up for AfD was that "if the tags are removed, then I have to conclude that editors find the article satisfactory as they are, in which case the AfD process is needed." With all due respect, I am puzzled over how you reached the conclusion that the mass removal of tags by ONE member of a WikiProject constitutes for the opinion of all members of the WikiProject - especially since Carcharoth, CBD, Uthanc, and I have all acknowledged that we needed work in referencing and merging article before those tags were removed, to which you have followed it up with, "Good to know that a cleanup is underway." I thought we were having a productive discussion that cleared things up, but I admit I am a little disappointed in the light of what has followed afterwards. :-(

My question is - to echo Carcharoth's, how much time are we given in order to reference and merge OVER 150 tagged articles? It is no easy feat to work on and polish one article, let alone 150-193 articles! While BrownHairedGirl brings up good points about the need for more independent sources, I feel that more time should be given to the WikiProject and more productive discussions between editors should take place and be allowed to finish before any sort of tagging war between two editors or AfD nominations begin.

NOTE: If I sound hostile, BrownHairedGirl, forgive me - for it was not my intention to act so. I do respect the points you bring up, I would just like for several things to be cleared up in the face on confusion and miscommunication. While I do not believe that you tagged those articles in bad faith, I believe there could've been a better way that would've been less confrontational and more communicative to deal with this issue. —Mirlen 15:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Mirlen: I don't agree with everything you said, but they didn't feel at all hostile. I am surprised, though, that you wish I had been more communicative; AFAICS, I have responded to everything, and initiated the discussion at the wikiproject (where it would have been ice to have more input from project members). OTOH, IronGargoyle, who zapped all the tags, has chosen not to engage in the discussions, which is a pity.

I take your point about the tagging appearing confrontational, and I know that you are not the only member of the project to feel that … but I hope you'll forgive me for suggesting that there may be a little bit of WP:OWNership here. The objections raised to tagging included claims that the tags are intrusive (true, they are supposed to be!), that independent refs aren't needed, and that a few voices arguing that Tolkien is so important that nothing about anything Tolkien should ever be questioned (for clarity I'm definitely not including you or Carcharoth in that last category). I hope you'll understand that I don't intend to be conflictual when I say that WPME seemed to be paying v little attention to notability, and that was perhaps why the tagging came as a shock. In other areas of wikipedia, such tagging is routine, and is regarded as a helpful reminder of an oversight, rather than as an attack; I think that the aversion to it here may be an indication that WPME needed a bit of a wakeup call, having responded to the tagging in August with mass removal, an ANI complaint, and (so far as I can see) little change of emphasis or attempt to address why those tags could be added to so many articles (the solution doesn't just lie in the ongoing merge process, since many of the merge targets failed WP:NOTE).

As to who supported the removal of tags, I saw no objection to IronGargoyle's mass removal of them in August, nor to his/her removal of them this time. Maybe "support" is too strong a word, and acquiescence would have been better, but as you'll see at project talk, there was considerable objection to the existence of any such tags (and no objection at all to IronGargoyle's removal on friday morning of of some of the first batch I had added).

I too was disappointed about the way the situation developed, but it seems to me that things are now going rather well. I don't watchlist all the articles I tagged, but I still saw more than five which had been well-referenced today alone, at least two of which I was pleased to remove the tags from. It seems to me that's exactly how these tags should work: identify a problem, and remove the label when it's fixed.

As to timelines, my understanding is that there is no formal limit to how long articles can remain tagged that way, and today I encountered several (in a difft field) tagged for attention for over a year. However, I think that as time goes by, the likelihood of an unreferenced article being PRODed or AFDed increases. I think that an AfD debate would probably look askance at a nomination if the tags had only been there a few weeks, unless the article was clearly trivial; after 6 months, I imagine there might be a greater inclination to raise the threshold for inclusion.

I certainly wouldn't expect his to be sorted out overnight, or even within weeks. The ME WikiProject has inherited a huge collection of stub articles on trivia, and sorting them all out is no small job ... and I for one would be a strong advocate of more time being given if there are AfD noms for something which arguably might be notable if the project really is trying to tackle the notability problem by independent referencing rather than by assertion (and I really do now think some members of the wikiproject are serious about that). To my mind, it's all a matter of good faith; if the project encourages the tagging of unref and nn articles, and does try to establish notability as it progresses through articles, then it would seem to me to be perverse to set arbitrary deadlines.

I'm particularly encouraged to see the thread you linked to at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards#References, which followed rapidly after the AfD nominations. I guess that you and few others might say that would have happened anyway, but I have my doubts (there was a rather lukewarm response when I raised the issue 36 hours previously). That seems to me to be crucial development, and I wish you all luck in pursuing it. While we might differ on who we got here, can we perhaps all agree that it's good news all round have reached a point where the problems appear to be en route to being resolved to the satisfaction everyone? (except, sadly, one or two few stray voices who appear to reject even WP:V). Please keep up the good work you have started :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've been quite busy in real life and haven't had the chance to reply to the teapot-tempest that seems to have resulted from the tagging, untagging, different-tagging, and different-untagging. I would like to reply to a few key points that seem to be framed as an indictment of my behavior:

Firstly, I discussed the initial untagging in the edit summary. I see your points about Christopher Tolkien, but I don't agree with them. Christopher Tolkien's work can serve as a secondary source and I never accused this misunderstanding of yours to be in bad faith (even when you have somewhat belligerently maintained your view against consensus).

Perhaps my use of the word "retaliatory mass-tagging" on my talk page was a bit harsh, and for that I apologize. You must admit, however, that going through and tagging every instance of an entire category without regard for the quality of the articles within that category looks a mite suspicious, particularly given the sequence of events. Other editors (Guest9999) did this several months ago, and I feel as though the general consensus of the resulting discussion did not suggest anything improper about my removal of the tags (nor was Guest999's behavior in tagging wholly condemned either). I maintain that mass-tagging should be avoiding whenever possible. It is not good editing practice. I felt (at the time) that it was being done to make a point, both yesterday and several months ago. You frequently cite WP:FICTION in this dispute, but you ignore the fact that sub-articles are a legitimate aspect of this guideline. I don't oppose the merger of stub-length articles that are unlikely to be expanded further, but when you nominate for deletion the targets of such mergers I am baffled.

For all your purported moral superiority about communicating more than someone who has clearly not been editing much recently (me), you failed to even notify me of the mass AfD nomination that apparently was triggered by my civil, explained and justified removal of a few notability tags. I would like to add that there is a significant amount of AfD precedent for these articles being notable.

I have not misused administrative tools in this dispute. Any editor may revert changes, and many non-administrative editing tools include a rollback function. I would like to add that I have, throughout this process maintained my 1RR principles (threatening to nominate any further untagged articles for deletion certainly violates the spirit of 1RR if not the letter).

I would like to say that I am particularly disturbed by your legalistic attitude and behavior, particularly the re-tagging in response to Carcharoth's improvement of a number of articles.

I don't really have any desire to revert or discuss this further. It seems as though the issue has been satisfactorily resolved for now, and I'm far too busy in real life to get into policy discussions. I may go through and add references when I get the chance however. I just felt like I needed to defend myself against the allegations and insinuations that have been leveled against me. Best regards, IronGargoyle 23:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

(deindent)I think this thread is nearly resolved now (and it turns out no admin action was needed, so apologies for bringing it up here - once it is archived I will try and remember to add links from Misplaced Pages talk:Notability (fiction) and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle-earth). Just a few stray points to respond to on editing behaviour: I did say "Forgive me if I get anything wrong in what follows", and I apologise for failing to mention that BHG initiated a discussion on the WikiProject talk page. The guideline misunderstanding that BHG talks about was me adding a single source, and her pointing out that multiple sources are required. That was more a misunderstanding of the tag than the guidelines - one of the disadvantages of leaving tags, as opposed to discussing with active editors or editors who might respond to tags, is that you can't be sure that the editors are going to follow every link and carefully read every guideline - you can't even be sure what quality of editor you will attract with the tag - which reinforces my opinion that discussing article problems with editors is always preferable - attract attention with tags, sure, but once discussion has started, don't legalistically step through a series of tags as the article slowly improves, or disrupt ongoing work by starting AfDs or engaging in mass tagging in a series of closely-related articles. Tagging is only helpful up to a certain point - after that it becomes unhelpful and should be replaced by discussion and a tag saying see the talk page for the discussion. But this is getting into personal philosophy now. As Mirlen pointed out, it is the behaviour that most concerned me, particularly the attitude of (paraphrasing) "if you remove the tags I'll nominate the articles at AfD" attitude. Given that BHG has now said (direct quote) "I think that an AfD debate would probably look askance at a nomination if the tags had only been there a few weeks, unless the article was clearly trivial; after 6 months, I imagine there might be a greater inclination to raise the threshold for inclusion.", I can only assume that you thought Gondor was a trivial subtopic, or that the AfDs and subsequent mass tagging (previously limited to four articles) was trying to gain attention or make some sort of point. BHG did get attention, and as a result more work is being done and will be done, but the WikiProject talk page discussion alone could have achieved that.

The issue of communication has also been raised, and it is not so much lack of communication from BHG (who as she says has responded to all the discussions), but more a feeling that BHG hasn't understood parts of what we have been saying (or not accepting it until we produce the goods - which works up to a certain point), see the comments from CBD on her talk page. That leads to an overall feeling of frustration, and just makes things that little bit more difficult and stressful. When I engage in such discussions, I try to bring some references to the table and help out - I find it helps the discussions go a lot more smoothly. IronGargoyle also makes some good points, and I agree with them. To end on a positive note, I'll quote BHG's conclusion, which I agree with: "can we perhaps all agree that it's good news all round have reached a point where the problems appear to be en route to being resolved to the satisfaction everyone?".

I apologise again for bringing this here - it was clearly the wrong venue. Hopefully we can end the thread, or continue somewhere else. Carcharoth 07:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block without any reasonable explanation.

Regarding the block of User:Dyskolos, please address all concerns directly to the Arbitration Committee at arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fred Bauder 03:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Déjà vu! El_C 19:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Lewis

Please review Lewis's block. All his contributions on June were to his talk page and perfectly acceptable in my opinion, and there was no reason for him to be blocked in the first place, and no reason why he should be still blocked. A.Z. 02:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Loomis51's block log shows that he was blocked for disruptive editing, and that block was moved to indefinite due to his expressed desire to continue being disruptive. He apologized and was given a 2nd change under specific terms. He used his time while unblocked to stalk and harass another user, and his indefinite block was restored for his failure to follow the terms of the unblock. Seems cut and dry to me. His talk page was even protected due to continued soapboxing. He is welcome to contact the blocking admin by e-mail, e-mail the list, or contact the arbcom if he wants an appeal. What I don't understand why this user couldn't do these steps on their own. What is your interest in this case? Have you been in contact with the user and you know that they desire to be unblocked?-Andrew c  02:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I like Lewis and I like fairness, and those are my interests. I don't think he was stalking nor harassing anyone. Yes, I don't really get why he continued posting on Clio's talk page, but it wasn't harassment. A.Z. 02:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Editors willing to make difficult edits

I notice earlier this month this page was created, mirroring Misplaced Pages:Admins willing to make difficult blocks. However I have serious misgivings. I've fixed most of the text but even so would like to check, does this page further the project?

As it stands, I've cleaned up the page and it's decent enough. Previously it read more like a virtual call to meatpuppetry and problematic proxy editing, and a long, long list of abuses which it states editors might risk and which can be avoided by getting another editor to proxy edit for them this way, that started with:

"Misplaced Pages editors may be subject to the following types of abuse: being banned or blocked for their off-site activities being banned or blocked without due process being called a "troll" ... being harassed or intimidated by abusive administrators being falsely labeled a sockpuppet of a banned user ... having defamatory statements placed on user pages having defamatory statements placed on talk pages ... having editors and administrators of Misplaced Pages pry into their real lives without consent or consultation ..."

I've removed the worst of it, and in general we do strongly encourage productive editors to edit collaboratively and help one other. But two concerns remain: 1/ this page might be seen as an invitation to meatpuppetry, COI proxying, and warring via well meaning uninvolved proxy parties ("I can't do X because people revert me, can you do it for me?"), and 2/ if there really is a genuine editorial problem at this level, surely we want to encourage editors to seek experienced help or dispute resolution, rather than just proxy editors? I've also left a note for the page's creator. FT2 05:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

For anyone who's not aware (and do forgive me linking to a borderline BADSITE here) this page appears to be trolling by the Misplaced Pages Review. — iridescent 17:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It's obviously intended as a parody, though whether or not it is amusing is left as an exercise for the reader. If it's confusing anyone, maybe it should be userfied. It's also on MfD now if anyone is interested. Newyorkbrad 17:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

There was an ArbCom recently where it was determined that linking to non-attack material on Misplaced Pages critical sites (with exceptions which doesn't include WikipediaReview) for the purpose of furthering Misplaced Pages is allowable, so no worries there. LessHeard vanU 23:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Evidence has been provided that Misplaced Pages editors are subject to: cyberstalking, offline stalking, being outed without their consent, sexual humiliation, threats of physical violence, being contacted at home, threats to family, being contacted at work, dismissal from work, and other negative consequences.

Any editor faced with editing with a disruptive or abusive editor, or who is being threatened because of having previously edited with such a person, can contact one of the editors on this list and request that they take over the case.

There are dispute resolution policies and procedures, the purpose of which is to facilitate the creation of an encyclopedia. The "Editors willing to make difficult edits" page doesn't disagree with these policies or encourage disruption of any sort. It states that if you feel unsafe and have a fear of real-life harassment due to editing Misplaced Pages, that you have an option to disengage and have another editor take over that situation. The other editor can of course take advantage of the Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures if they are needed.

Misplaced Pages doesn't exist to make people sad - there is no reason an editor should be required to interact on Misplaced Pages in any way that makes them feel unsafe. If an editor volunteers to help someone feel safer and to help them improve the encyclopedia, that action is certainly within the spirit of fostering the online community of people interested in building a high-quality encyclopedia in a spirit of mutual respect. Uncle uncle uncle 20:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed as to most of this being added after. The bulk of the problem edits were Caius Martius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with others by Dtobias (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). However concerns still stand and seek thought anmd##d reassurance. FT2 01:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous page creation will be reenabled on English Misplaced Pages

Let's keep discussion centralized at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Anonymous page creation will be reenabled on English Misplaced Pages, a more convenient place for the thread. -- ReyBrujo 00:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

From the mailing list:

Original post: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2007-October/084292.html . Better optimize those speedy deletion scripts, we're going to need them a lot more. MER-C 09:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No! Bad! Bad! JuJube 09:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Great. Speedy deletion backlogs are going to rocket. Hut 8.5 09:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion is at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Anonymous page creation will be reenabled on English Misplaced Pages. Let's keep this in one place, please. -- ChrisO 09:51, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Come on, don't knock it 'til it happens. Who knows, it could lead to lots of great articles too :) This has been your daily ray of sunshine. Do not use it all at once ~ Riana ⁂ 09:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

More button pressers are needed, then. I suggest starting a recruiting campaign immediately. MaxSem 09:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This will only cause us more clean up work. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

If I can be frankly honest, this should have taken place on the wiki instead of a mailing list. I would also suggest, when it gets closer, to have this appear in our watchlist notice (similar to the arbcom elections). As for the cleanup itself, well, it shouldn't be that bad. Just bookmark new pages and we should be good to go. User:Zscout370 22:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Great, now we can finally have all those articles on all the missing elements from the Extended Periodic Table (I fully expect pieces on such common minerals as "Suxcox" and "lololololol!") and Only Slightly Famous But Properly Spelt Greek Philosophers like XXXXFARTyYYYY, %£^£$&£$ and MyNameIsEricAndIRock... Was there any admins included in this decision? LessHeard vanU 23:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention all those new Pokémon, "Chukawk," "So I herd you l*** M******," "gayshit," "ErikCartmanSucksPenis," etc. -Jéské 23:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

David jason Silver

I found a previous discussion about this user here so I hope this is the correct place to bring this to an administrator's attention. While researching a current AfD at David jason Silver I found evidence that the article's creator is a long-term vandal (see Administrators' noticeboard link above) and he doesn't seem to have changed his pattern; creating self-promotional pages for himself filled with grandiose imaginary achievements. I'll make a link back to this page in the AfD and hope an administrator will do the appropriate thing; if I can be of further assistance, let me know. Accounting4Taste 15:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleted, author blocked as sock. MaxSem 17:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Problem with Administrator DragonflySixtyseven

I've recently been contributing to a Misplaced Pages article on the British astronomer Herbert Dingle, and I've put a lot of effort into adhering strictly to the Misplaced Pages policies and principles for editing potentially controversial articles. This is especially important for this article, because a number of "physics cranks" (in the words of Jimbo Wales) have devoted themselves to filling that article with unverifiable "original research" and "novel narratives", basically trying to portray Dingle as the noble but persecuted victim of the evil world-wide conspriacy of Einstein-worshiping scientists to foist the obvious nonsense of relativity theory down the throats of decent people. In this context, the only reasonable way forward is to adhere very closely to Misplaced Pages policies, and insist that the article contain only verifiable material from reputable sources.

As anyone who has ever dealt with physics cranks knows, there is no point in trying to argue what is "true" with them. Wiki policies recognize the futility of this, and they were designed to provide a practical means of preventing dedicated physics cranks from overwhelming Misplaced Pages. For the most part they work fairly well. I can cite many articles (such as the one on Le Sage's Theory of Gravity) that have been turned from crackpot nonsense into very decent articles, due to the hard work and patience of people who are genuinely interested in producing good science articles in accord with Misplaced Pages policies.

However, I recently logged on to find the following message from administrator Dragonflysixtyseven:

You will no doubt notice that (just like Swanzsteve) you are blocked for a day. This is because edit wars are annoying. I have moved your draft version of the article to User:Denveron/Herbert Dingle (draft). Once your blocks have expired, you and Swanzsteve will STILL not be allowed to edit the article, until such time as you have reached an agreement by arguing on your use talk pages. Keep the drama out of the article. If either of you tries to edit the article without having the other's agreement, I'll block you both. Got it?

It's my belief that the above message (and the blocking action) of this administrator was both unjustified and unreasonable. The cited cause of the action was "because edit wars are annoying". This is simply a generic statement, not a justification for why anyone in particular should be blocked. No Misplaced Pages rules were violated. For example, there was no 3rr violation. Furthermore, every one of my edits on the article in question has been accompanied with careful Discussion, and has been justified by Misplaced Pages policies.

It is true that a number of edits and counter-edits have taken place, but this is unavoidable when dealing with physics cranks who are determined to insert their crackpot POV into Misplaced Pages articles. Surely the rules of Misplaced Pages editing have been developed for a reason, and the ability to revert edits has been provided for a reason. These are capabilities that were designed to be used. As long as all the rules and policies are followed, I think it's unwarranted to block editors. And it's especially counter-productive to block editors who have consistently shown that they are adhering to Misplaced Pages policies and are striving to produce a good article in accord with those policies. Also, to tell someone that he will be blocked until he has reached agreed with a hard-core physics crackpot is simply insane. If crackpots could be reasoned with, they wouldn't be crackpots. The very definition of a physics crank is that they don't respond to reason. And Misplaced Pages policies have been designed to avoid the need to "reason" with physics cranks. Perhaps Dragonfly is just unfamilar with these facts.

I'd also like to point out that Dragonfly's message said

If either of you tries to edit the article without having the other's agreement, I'll block you both.

I actually had to read that sentence several times to be sure it said what it seems to say. Apparently if some OTHER editor behaves in a way that defies Dragonflies edict, Dragonfly proposes to block ME. Excuse me for saying so, but I wonder if perhaps Dragonfly would like to take a minute and reconsider that message. And if he still thinks it was appropriate, I'd like to suggest that whoever appointed him as an Administrator reconsider that appointment.

In summary, without citing a single violation of any Misplaced Pages rule, Dragonfly has blocked a very hard-working and conscientious editor, who has only been trying to prevent physics cranks from turning an article into their own conspiratorial "novel narrative", and then has threatened further action against this editor if some OTHER editor mis-behaves. I invite anyone who's interested to review the article history and the Discussion page, and decide for yourself whether Dragonfly's action was appropriate.

One last comment. Throughout the editing of this particular article (which has been plagued by numerous sockpuppetting and other nonsense), several Misplaced Pages Admins have made comments to the effect that it is ridiculous how much attention is being paid to such an obscure topic like Herbert Dingle. The admins have said "this is so lame", etc. I think it should hardly need to be said that the whole basis of Misplaced Pages is that, for each topic, even the little-known obscure topics, there are people in the world who are knowledgeable on that topic and CARE that it be presented accurately. This is the life's blood of Misplaced Pages. I think it's appalling that Admins take it upon themselves to express contempt and disdain for individuals who come here to contribute to Misplaced Pages articles in accord with the policies and principles. In general, I think the Admins who have had anything to do with the Herbert Dingle article have not well represented the interests of Misplaced Pages.Denveron 16:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Specific diffs would go a long way toward substantiating this, but as a general response I'd point to Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing, which was designed to deal with people who park themselves at some article and insist something like The moon is made of green cheese. There's no sense in trying to compromise with someone like that. Rather, try something like an article content request for comment to bring in broader opinions and document the disruptive behavior. That can restore a normal status quo, and in case it doesn't it can provide grounds for other remedies such as a community ban. Durova 17:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've let DragonflySixtyseven know about this thread. Newyorkbrad 17:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

As an involved editor on the Herbert Dingle article, I concur with much of what Denveron wrote above. However, I disagree that admins have mishandled the situation. The article and talk page have been totally berserk for months. Give some time for DragonflySixtyseven to do what he said (try to make sense of what's been going on), and then we'll see how things shake out. If other editors wish to do the same, that would be great. Don't forget to check for holes in your gear beforehand. Tim Shuba 18:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Durova indicated above that "specific diffs would go a long way toward substantiating this", so I'll just mention that I was blocked from editing the Herbert Dingle article for being so bold as to remove the following sentence from the article (which followed a sentence stating that Einstein's special theory of relativity has not been experimentally falsified):

"Although Louis Essen, the inventor of the Atomic Clock has questioned the validity of the experimental evidence in an article in Nature, saying: "Einstein stressed the tentative nature of his theory and the need for experimental models. Contrary to popular belief, there is no evidence concerning the special theory as propounded, because no experiment has been made in a force-free space".

I deleted this sentence, because (1) Essen was a well-known crackpot, (2) the "article in Nature" was actually a letter to the editor, and (3) there is an abundance of highly reputable sources (e.g., textbooks from academic publishers with good reputations for scholarly work) all supporting the original statement in the article that Einstein's theory of special relativity is supported by (i.e., not falsified by) a vast amount of experimental evidence. I honestly think the above sentence was simply inserted to promote a crackpot POV and to obfuscate the very well documented and solidly sourced claim that Einstein's theory is consistent with all the relevant experimental evidence. The article is not about Essen, so Essen's (shall we say) eccentric views (which no reputable publications would accept for refereed publication) are not appropriate for the Misplaced Pages article about Herbert Dingle. Since Essen's views were rejected by the reputable physics community, Misplaced Pages policy is to exclude those views from Misplaced Pages articles as well (except perhaps for an article specifically about Essen, in which case it would obviously be appropriate to state his views).

Now, it's conceivable that some reasonable people might disagree with my edit. Maybe for some reason they think Misplaced Pages should cite Essen as a reputable source on the experimental verification of special relativity. Regardless of that, I still say my removal of that sentence was in no way an egregious violation of Misplaced Pages editorial policy. "Be bold", remember? I honestly believe, in good faith, that the sentence was bogus and didn't belong in the article. I edited it out. Then I was blocked from editing the article... for no stated reason other than "edit wars are unpleasant". Removing a statement that I believe is not verifiable under Wiki policy is not conducting an edit war, so that "reason" is a non sequitur. Durova mentioned various ways of excluding statements like "the moon is made of green cheese", but ultimately someone has to actually edit it out of the article. In fact, it will almost certainly be necessary to remove it more than once, given the existence of moon cheese crackpots. I do not think it's appropriate for Wiki Admins to block someone for removing a crackpot statement like that. Misplaced Pages NEEDS people to recognize crackpot POV and remove it from articles when they find it.

Tim Shuba has commented that the article in question has been totally berserk for months, but whether that is the case or not, I think a review of the page history will show that MY edits have been consistently constructive, informative, providing actual content, and well-supported both by references and by Discussion on the talk page. I have not been "berserk". Reading back through some of the earlier history of the page, I can see examples of where certain other individuals might appear to have gone berserk... but I shall refrain from naming them. The only relevant point here is that I was not berserk... and yet I have been blocked. So, again, it's a non sequitur, and there is no justification for ME being blocked from editing.

Finally, I want to emphasize again that, not only was no rational reason cited for blocking me (because stating a generic fact like "edit wars are annoying" does not constititue a reason for blocking someone who has done nothing other than edit in good faith and in full accord with Misplaced Pages policies), but I was told that if a DIFFERENT editor refuses to behave reasonably, then *I* will be blocked permanently. Needless to say, I have no control over that other editor, so the Admin's edict is utterly unreasonable and indefensible (in my opinion). No one here has commented on this, but I think it's a legitimate complaint. Clearly the Administrator either mis-spoke himself or... well, I honestly can't think of any other rational explanation.Denveron 21:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It quite clear that by "edit wars are annoying" the blocking admin intended to imply that you had been edit warring, which, after a quick glance at the article history, seems to be an accurate assessment. The 3 revert rule is a limit, not a right. You don't have to violate it for it to count as an edit war. It was a pretty short block, so if I were you I would learn my lesson and move on. If you have a problem with an editor, there are various means of dispute resolution you can try. Edit warring is not one of them. As for the "I'll block you both" comment, blocking one person for another's actions is clearly unacceptable. I would imagine adding "both" to the end of that sentence was a mistake, however if you are blocked purely for someone else's actions, feel free to email me using the "E-mail this user" link and I will unblock you. --Tango 21:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

You say a quick glance at the article history leads you to believe I was "edit warring", but can you tell me what constituted the edit warring? I'd be happy to "learn my lesson" (as you put it), but it would be easier if I knew what lesson I'm supposed to be learning. You agree that I didn't violate any specific rule or policy (such as 3rr), but surely there must be some objective criteria for what constitutes edit warring. If it's purely subjective, then the only apparent lesson to be learned here is that someone who edits an article in good faith, working entirely within both the letter and the spirit of all Misplaced Pages policies and principles, striving within those policies to remove unverifiable original research and novel narratives, can be rudely blocked and threatened with future blocking contingent on the actions of third parties. Is it conceivable (just conceivable) that someone in addition to me has an opportunity of learning a lesson here today?

Look, any time one or more physics cranks sets his sights on a Misplaced Pages article, there will inevitably be a long series of edits and counter edits before arriving at a stable article. Each time someone inserts the phrase "The moon is made of green cheese" into the article, someone else has to delete it. That's just the way it is. There is no symmetry between the insertion and the deletion. Inserting unverifiable "original research" and "novel narratives" (not to mention copywrite violations, which is another set of things that I've deleted... you're welcome) is itself a violation of Misplaced Pages policies. Removing those things is not a violation of Misplaced Pages policies. It's a fine idea for Wiki Admins to block people who are willfully and repeatedly violating policy, but it is not such a fine idea for Admins to block people who are adhering to Wiki policy. That's all I'm trying to say, and I'm surprised that Wiki Admins have such a hard time bringing themselves to agree with that statement. Denveron 23:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems counterproductive to block a user, without warning and who has not broken 3RR, for reverting additions of crackpot theories to mainstream science articles. Also, telling an editor that they may not edit an article on threat of being blocked seems to exceed the range of authority for an administrator. The correct administrative action, if any, would be to first warn the users to stop, and consider a page protection to allow the dispute to calm down. Also, treating this as a content dispute that two editors have to work out through consensus seems misguided, perhaps a lack of understanding about physics. Are we really running a wikipedia where it's okay to say that special relativity is unproven? It's pretty obvious when reading the article that the quotation by one fringe theoriest, Essen, disputing the validity of special relativity has no place in an article about another fringe theorist, Dingle. The quotation has nothing to do with Dingle, no importance at all in the context of Dingle's life, and in fact it's out of place gramatically in the article. It's just heaping on a claim that special relativity is unproven. Yes, the long term correct approach would be to use the dispute resolution options in an attempt to make User:Swanzsteve stop adding fringe material. But that takes a lot of work. It's understandable that someone would engage in 2RR to try to get rid of the nonsense and use mediation, AN/I, etc., as a last result. One problem with a block like this: how are we supposed to edit the article? In my reading I feel pretty confident that the sentence in question has to go. I've proposed to delete the sentence about Essen from the Dingle article. Is anyone going to block me for edit warring if I do that? Blocks have a chilling effect. They shut down the editing and consensus process, you know. Wikidemo 22:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The above verbal diarrhoea from Denveron, may give you some idea of the problems he has caused on the Herbert Dingle page. Has he followed the Wiki procedure of contacting the editor who blocked him? No he has gone over his head and complained about the editor, without contacting the editor concerned. A couple of months ago, after a great deal of discussion, the Dingle page became relatively stable, everyone had agreed that Dingle's page was not the appropriate place to discuss SR (which has its own page) or to debate on the page whether or not Dingle was wrong and/or why he was wrong, there was a simple statement at the end of the article "The consensus in the physics community is that Dingle's objections to the logical consistency of special relativity were unfounded", which was a simple statement of fact, to which everyone could agree. There were links to places where people could find further material if they were interested. After 17 days of stability, where we discussing what should be added to the article to improve it, Denveron appeared. His first contribution included these lines "Dingle himself had written about the reciprocity of relativistic effects decades earlier, but when he was reminded of it during his retirement years, he suddenly found himself unable to understand his own earlier explanations.", the clear implication of this is that Dingle was mentally unsound when he started to question Special Relativity. The sole purpose of almost every contribution since has been to denigrate Dingle in any way possible. Perhaps I could illustrate this by giving some examples of his reversions:

The title held by Dingle after 1955 was, "Professor Emeritus of History and Philosophy of Science, University College London", all his publications after 1955 referred to him by this title, including his book "Science at the Crossroads". The statement that Dingle held this title after 1955, was repeatedly reverted by Denveron for no good reason whatsoever.

There was a statement at the end which said "Despite his criticisms of special relativity, Dingle never lost his respect for Einstein's genius.", this quote is from Whitrow's obituary of Dingle, and is supported by several statements from Dingle's book. This was an attempt to show that scientists involved in debates over controversial subjects don't necessarily despise each other. Denveron once again objected to this (properly sourced) statement, and reverted it.

The seemingly harmless factual statement: "He was one of the founders of the British Society for the History of Science, and served as President from 1955 to 1957" was repeatedly reverted.

There is a statement in the article that Dingle was proved wrong by experimental evidence, this is simply not true, I included a quote from Nature by Louis Essen to this effect, this quote was again properly sourced and once again this was summarily reverted as a "crackpot POV". This last reversion is in fact what lead to the recent blocks.

Most of the present article is litle more than a list of people who thought Dingle was wrong and why. Naturally this lead to mayhem in the article with many users (some of whom have been banned as sockpuppets) objecting to the strong ant-Dingle POV within the article. Denveron hasnt done it all on his own, unfortunately some of the other anti-Dingle crowd have joined in and there is now a section on the Lorentz Transformation as well, which is completely unnecessary since there is a already a Wiki page on this. However, Denveron has been the catalyst for the anti-Dingle crowd to crawl out of the woodwork, and stamp their POV on the article.

I hope the admins who are looking at this article will agree that it should return to the previous consensus policy that Dingle's page is not the one to discuss SR, the Lorentz transformation, Dingle's supposed slide into dementia after his retirement. These details can be found elsewhere. - Swanzsteve 03:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What is verbal diarrhoea? Tim Shuba 04:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

User:69.122.155.216

69.122.155.216 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has shown time and time again that his/her only purpose here is to vandalise Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie, A Goofy Movie, as well as other related articles. He/she has been blocked twice now (once for 24 hours, once for a week), but has recently returned again, up to his/her old tricks here. JPG-GR 18:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Final warning has been given. He will be blocked if he persists. — Edokter • Talk • 19:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Cardsplayer4life

Hello, I have been making some really positive edits, mainly dealing with tagging trivia sections and such. However, the said user has reverted all my hard work into finding some of these trivia/miscellaneous sections and keeps taking the tags off. I feel that these tags are valid, yet they keep getting removed because the section isn't explicitly titled trivia, although the sections I am tagging are long laundry lists full of unimportant facts/info. I have spent a lot of time reverting the tags back, so that other users will notice the sections and try to integrate/weed out the info and make better articles. I am a good editor, and I feel I am helping the site out a lot, I just wish I didn't have to keep reverting the tags back. I am doing nothing wrong, just trying to help the project. Thank you. 75.5.225.151 19:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see that he has removed a ton of the trivia tags you put, without any explanation on your talk page, which isn't right. He did give you a warning about the removal of text at The More You Know (which I actually agree with and have cut down a bit). I do wish you would have responded on his talk page first though, saying that you were removing trivia sections, instead of immediately coming here. I've notified him but I'm doubtful anything major will come out of it as this looks purely like a content dispute that doesn't require admin help. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, at first I just thought it was like a lot of anonymous IPs and messing around with stuff (which I was trying to fix). I put a warning message on his talk page over the removal of content. I actually don't have as much of a problem with the tags (although some of them are really ridiculous, and are on lists that are very straightforward and not trivia at all) as much as I do with the removal of content that is taking place. If he wants to willy-nilly tag stuff as trivia whether it is or not, then I won't interfere any more with it, but if he continues to remove content, then I have a big problem with it. I won't continue to monitor him though, so he can do whatever he wants, but he is not "helping the site out a lot" (sic) with his actions. And, yes, Mr. Anonymous IP, please talk to me on my talk page (or on your talk page, either one), and I am sure we can come to some kind of understanding. The admins have more important things to do with their time than deal with this silliness. (Cardsplayer4life 22:56, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

Didn't we just go through something like this over popular culture section deletions? I don't think it's particularly helpful to mass-tag a bunch of popular culture sections as trivia, but the tag is harmless. It can be removed by anyone who disagrees, but it probably shouldn't be removed if there's a valid concern of unsourced trivia. In that regard, I think you (Cards4life) went a little too far by reverting them all and then the anonymous editor went too far again by reverting. We shouldn't have a revert war over maintenance tags. I spot checked and about half or a little more of the applications were good; the others were simply not trivia. Popular culture is not the same thing as trivia, and when an article is about a popular culture subject, then its effect on popular culture is utterly relevant - though not all of the facts are always worth mentioning. Deleting popular culture material simply because it's popular culture is misguided. I would only delete things that clearly don't add to the understanding of the subject. If something is unsourced but clearly verifiable, then source it. Likewise, if it's in the wrong section or article, move it. Simple, really. Wikidemo 00:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously I agree. Like I said, I think this whole thing is silly and I am on to more fruitful edits that actually improve the place. If you guys want to go on with this silly back and forth, go ahead. Just keep the mass removal of content down is all I ask. Cardsplayer4life 01:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed 0RR on Northern Cyprus

An (apparently Greek Cypriot) editor, 3meandEr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has recently been edit-warring heavily on Northern Cyprus to attempt to impose an extremely partisan text which is - as he himself has put it - a "condemnation" of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. The article is, at the best of times, a minefield and a mecca for edit warriors. I locked the article a few days ago to stop the edit war and attempted to work out the issues on Talk:Northern Cyprus. However, it's become clear that 3meandEr is a classic single-purpose POV-pusher - he's a new editor, has never edited anything other than Northern Cyprus and the article talk page, and has either no understanding of or intention to apply NPOV. Consequently I propose to unprotect the article and adopt a Dmcdevit solution. In essence, this means 0RR and blocks for unproductive edit warriors - given his conduct so far, I think there's a high likelihood of needing to block 3meandEr as a result. Does anyone have any views on this approach? Comments to Talk:Northern Cyprus#Please dont change the subject please. :-) -- ChrisO 00:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I find Dmcdevit thoughts very practical and much more adapted to realities. It is a big step forward to enhance and defend the project. There are more edit wars than discussions at talk pages. Users who "condemn" are naturally violating WP:NPOV. If those violations happen so often then the 0RR is just better than protecting. Why protect an article where there are only 2 or 3 people "fighting" each other? Why tell readers that we are sorry because some people are shouting inside the house. We must let our visitors come in while keeping order inside. No hijacking. So I support your plan. I am not sure though how long it would last and that's why keeping it indefinite would be appropriate. -- FayssalF - 03:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a bad idea. A "0RR" hurts productive editors far more than it hurts a POV-pushing SPA. If this editor is a POV-pushing SPA you can come up with a community-based article ban. The reason the 3RR applies to editors and not articles is that it protects against POV-pushers. A 0RR creates motivation is exactly the opposite direction...all you need to do is go to an internet cafe, or email a friend, anything like that. Sure, an IP is blocked (or a throw-away account), but then your version is in place and no one can change it. Any novel solution needs to keep article integrity in place.

If the article has been locked and discussion has come to consensus, then unblock it. If there's a POV-pushing SPA who refuses to abide, then limit that person's ability to edit. Don't create a situation which rewards SPAs and POV-pushers. Guettarda 03:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with Guettarda. We have enough tools to deal disruptive editors when is needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I see that 3meandEr block log to be sparkling clean. If he is such a disruptive editor, no actions have been taken yet to entice him/her to behave. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As Dmcedvit well says it: Remember that a short block is a psychological blow, not a final solution (Premise #5). Protection is not a solution to a behavior problem either. Applying repeated short blocks for unrelenting misconduct is nothing more than toleration. If it doesn't work, don't do it again. The only solution to an incorrigible behavior problem is a long-term block. Blocks escalate not primarily because that is the best way to change behavior, but because in the case that behavior does not change, it results in the most productive outcome: the unproductive editor being blocked from editing. Misplaced Pages is very accommodating to good faith editors: but it does not have the resources to provide anger management therapy; Misplaced Pages is more productive concentrating its efforts on editors that show a willingness to develop cluefulness.

Unprotect, get the user blocked if deserving it and escalate the blocks if needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Guettarda and Jossi. Block the user if he deserves it. 3RR is a standard but not the only one. I have no problem blocking someone who is here doing nothing other than wasting other's time and energy. Has 3meanadEr shown any inclination to explain himself, back down, negotiate or otherwise actually have a discussion? If not, block him, ignore him and go on; punishing everyone and changing the rules for one POV warrior is not the answer. Make it clear that he and his kind are not tolerated. It is possible have a POV that is against consensus; just when you refuse to compromise in any manner, then you aren't tolerated here. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say 1RR can still be effective. Why would someone need to revert more than once a day? In any way, they would only do the same thing twice or more. They can just do it once in case of major edit warring like this one. It is well known to everybody that is just a waste of time. -- FayssalF - 04:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. In reply to Jossi's implicit question about whether "actions have been taken yet to entice him/her to behave", I've been trying to mediate on the article talk page and explain the requirements of NPOV etc, but there's no sign that 3meandEr either understands or accepts the concept of neutrality. I'm conscious of Dmcdevit's comments that "consistently responding to an editor's edit warring ... with protections does nothing to prevent the behavior", hence the search for an alternative way forward. I'll try unprotecting the page and leaving a warning/suggestion on 3meandEr's talk page with regard to his conduct. -- ChrisO 09:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Beware the Vandalbot

Just a heads up, there's a vandalbot using open proxies which has been very active recently. Examples: 81.201.58.55 (talk · contribs), 80.190.245.164 (talk · contribs), 208.48.253.137 (talk · contribs), 140.128.20.205 (talk · contribs), 213.85.226.110 (talk · contribs), 69.227.233.133 (talk · contribs). Please keep an eye out for this very distinctive type of edit and block (or report to AIV) on sight. Thanks. -- zzuuzz 03:39, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit request for Jenin (and others)

Hi, I'm wondering if an uninvolved admin would be willing to implement the small editing agreement at Talk:Battle of Jenin as listed among the . Incidentally, the backlog includes another dozen requested edits, though I can only vouch for the acceptability of the Jenin request. Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 05:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)