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Revision as of 20:40, 12 November 2007 view sourceSbharris (talk | contribs)38,989 edits →Stephen Coles← Previous edit Revision as of 20:44, 12 November 2007 view source Sbharris (talk | contribs)38,989 edits →Stephen Coles: Meatpuppet: biggoted term for a newbie who disagrees with an oldie in an argument on Misplaced PagesNext edit →
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:Agreed - Stan Primmer is someone else. "Stan Primmer, a long-time member of the GRG and a Co-Founder of the Supercentenarian Research Foundation (SRF)," etc. ] 05:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC). :Agreed - Stan Primmer is someone else. "Stan Primmer, a long-time member of the GRG and a Co-Founder of the Supercentenarian Research Foundation (SRF)," etc. ] 05:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC).
::Please read ]. Thanks to NealIRC and Sbharris for confirming that StanPrimmer is a meatpuppet. It's a pity, though, that we now have more than one person involved in the Gerontology Research Group engaged in this disruption, and it can do no good at all to GRG's reputation or credibility. --] <small>] • (])</small> 12:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC) ::Please read ]. Thanks to NealIRC and Sbharris for confirming that StanPrimmer is a meatpuppet. It's a pity, though, that we now have more than one person involved in the Gerontology Research Group engaged in this disruption, and it can do no good at all to GRG's reputation or credibility. --] <small>] • (])</small> 12:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
::: Why don't YOU read the article, BHG? Let me quote: ''"As opposed to sock puppets, meatpuppets are actual newbies, and it is important to not bite the newbies. Users who are recruited as meatpuppets have presumably never seen the editing side of Misplaced Pages before, and some of them may broaden their interests and turn into productive editors. If meat puppets are disrupting a discussion that you are involved in, it is better to disregard them than to get angry at them or call them "meatpuppets" to their face."'' Don't bite the newbies means don't block them be being meatpuppets, as noted explicitly in the above reference. Stan is indeed a "meatpuppet" for purposes of this argument by the definition referenced, but admitting that means you people who blocked him are how obligated to admit you were wrong and now go unblock him. <p> The question of "meatpuppets," itself by the way, deserves some discussion, but not here. I can only comment that I see no real difference between having your associates and friends come to Misplaced Pages to support your argument, vs. recruiting associates and friends to echo you from among people who are already here. What's the big difference? Today's newbie is tomorrow's vet. ]]]] 20:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC) ::: Why don't YOU read the article, BHG? Let me quote: ''"As opposed to sock puppets, meatpuppets are actual newbies, and it is important to not bite the newbies. Users who are recruited as meatpuppets have presumably never seen the editing side of Misplaced Pages before, and some of them may broaden their interests and turn into productive editors. If meat puppets are disrupting a discussion that you are involved in, it is better to disregard them than to get angry at them or call them "meatpuppets" to their face."'' '''Don't bite the newbies''' certainly means don't block them indefinitely for being sockpuppets, which they are not. Stan is indeed a "meatpuppet" for purposes of this argument by the definition referenced, but admitting '''that''' means you people who blocked him are how obligated to admit you were wrong and now go unblock him, and also admit that you were wrong in the same space where you did your highhanded work. That's fair. <p> The question of "meatpuppets," itself by the way, deserves some discussion, but not here. I can only comment that I see no real difference between having your associates and friends come to Misplaced Pages to support your argument, vs. recruiting associates and friends to echo you, from among people who are already here, and post on your TALK pages. What's the big difference? Today's WP newbie is tomorrow's vet. ]]]] 20:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


*'''Delete.''' Let's try some objective documentation. Notability of researchers is demonstrated by the scientific third party recognition of their research. Web of Science finds 22 papers, of which the most highly cited is the one in ''Science'' mentioned above--cited a total of 12 times. The one mentioned in '' JGerontolA'' has been cited 4 times, the one in'' AnnNYAS'' has never been cited. Clearly not widelyrecognized by his peers outside his own institute and its publications. ''']''' (]) 03:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete.''' Let's try some objective documentation. Notability of researchers is demonstrated by the scientific third party recognition of their research. Web of Science finds 22 papers, of which the most highly cited is the one in ''Science'' mentioned above--cited a total of 12 times. The one mentioned in '' JGerontolA'' has been cited 4 times, the one in'' AnnNYAS'' has never been cited. Clearly not widelyrecognized by his peers outside his own institute and its publications. ''']''' (]) 03:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:44, 12 November 2007

Stephen Coles

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Stephen Coles (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

No evidence or assertion of notability, does not meet WP:PROF. The subject is an academic researcher, but there are no refs from independent reliable sources, and the article's main claim of Coles's significance appears to be as a co-founder of the Gerontology Research Group. The article was created by a member of the Gerontology Research Group, Robert Young (longevity claims researcher)/User:Ryoung122. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

  • In my opinion Stephen Coles does satisfy the notability requirement because it is highly likely that he has participated in more autopsies of supercentenarians than any other individual alive. The study of the causes of death in supercentenarians gives us significantly greater insight into the processes of aging and disease in the elderly. His contributions to the GRG which is one of the foremost groups studying aging and longevity are significant. He is also extremely active in efforts to increase funding for stem cell research. He participates in a number of editorial and board positions and has organized conferences related to anti-aging medicine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertBradbury (talk • contribs) 14:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
  • delete the article claims that Coles is a "Professor at the UCLA", but I can't find his faculty web page. I find this where he's called " visiting scholar, Department of Computer Science", and this he's billed as "assistant researcher in the Department of Surgery", the only other reference to him that I can find in a departmental page is on the list of <$900 contributors to Donors to the Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine (). Other than that there's one article in the campus paper on the GRG (which the article describes as a group "which meets at the UCLA Medical Center" .... "once a month to disseminate information and to discuss recent news in regards to aging") which mentions him. Of course, he's mentioned, (as "L. Stephen Coles, GRG System Administrator/Webmaster") in this GRG web page is hosted at UCLA, but that page begins with several layers of boilerplate dissociating itself from UCLA, which is a bit odd. In short, I doubt the veracity of the article's first sentence, and therefore recommend deletion. Pete.Hurd 20:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

L. Stephen Coles, M.D., Ph.D., is the Director of the Gerontology Research Group (GRG) and maintains lists of supercentenarians on the GRG website (www.grg.org; http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/59/6/B579 ). The GRG has become a recognized authority on validated supercentenarians due to the work of Dr. Coles and the careful research of Robert Douglas Young and Louis Epstein. In order to be certain of the legitimacy of claims to extreme age Young and Epstein require at least three documents that support the claim. These documents may include a birth certificate, a baptismal certificate, census records, and a marriage certificate to show a woman’s name change. I am personally acquainted with Dr. Coles, Robert Young, and Louis Epstein, and I can vouch for their dedication to present accurate data on supercentenarians. Many news stories cite the GRG as a reliable source of information about supercentenarians (e.g. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3071036; the Wall Street Journal of Feb. 25, 2005, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB110929999480364081.html; http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-11-oldest-person_x.htm; http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20031006/ai_n14564771, citing an AP story in the Oakland Tribune of Oct. 6, 2003; http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1970532,00.html; http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-minagawa14aug14,1,4586720.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california ).

In addition to providing a reliable source of data on supercentenarians, Dr. Coles has participated in the autopsies of four supercentenarians (http://www.grg.org/resources/GJohnsonAutopsy_files/frame.htm; http://www.grg.org/resources/Palermo_files/frame.htm ) and one quasi-supercentenarian (www.grg.org/resources/SENS3HTML.htm ). In three of these autopsies the cause of death was determined to be senile systemic amyloidosis, a remarkable finding if additional autopsies prove it to be statistically significant.

Dr. Coles’ accomplishments warrant retaining the brief article about him. StanPrimmer 00:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

User:StanPrimmer has been blocked as a sockpuppet of User:Ryoung122. - Galloglass 12:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I was trained as a geriatrician myself and have attended Dr. Coles' discussion groups at UCLA for years. He is an expert in his field, which is superlongevity in humans, and regularly publishes demographics on the subject in peer reviewed journals. I'm including three citations below by Coles:

Coles LS. Demographics of human supercentenarians and the implications for longevity medicine. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2004 Jun;1019:490-5. Review. PMID 15247072

Coles LS. Demography of human supercentenarians. J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2004 Jun;59(6):B579-86. PMID 15215268

de Grey AD, Gavrilov L, Olshansky SJ, Coles LS, Cutler RG, Fossel M, Harman SM. Antiaging technology and pseudoscience. Science. 2002 Apr 26;296(5568):656. PMID 11985356

Now, am I going to be accused of being a sockpuppet? And by the way, you totally screwed up with Stan Primmer, who is a real person. And that's his real name, not Brown Haired Girl. So pot, kettle, black. Give it a rest, you hypocrits. SBHarris 02:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - Stan Primmer is someone else. "Stan Primmer, a long-time member of the GRG and a Co-Founder of the Supercentenarian Research Foundation (SRF)," etc. Neal 05:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC).
Please read WP:SOCK#Meatpuppets. Thanks to NealIRC and Sbharris for confirming that StanPrimmer is a meatpuppet. It's a pity, though, that we now have more than one person involved in the Gerontology Research Group engaged in this disruption, and it can do no good at all to GRG's reputation or credibility. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Why don't YOU read the article, BHG? Let me quote: "As opposed to sock puppets, meatpuppets are actual newbies, and it is important to not bite the newbies. Users who are recruited as meatpuppets have presumably never seen the editing side of Misplaced Pages before, and some of them may broaden their interests and turn into productive editors. If meat puppets are disrupting a discussion that you are involved in, it is better to disregard them than to get angry at them or call them "meatpuppets" to their face." Don't bite the newbies certainly means don't block them indefinitely for being sockpuppets, which they are not. Stan is indeed a "meatpuppet" for purposes of this argument by the definition referenced, but admitting that means you people who blocked him are how obligated to admit you were wrong and now go unblock him, and also admit that you were wrong in the same space where you did your highhanded work. That's fair.

The question of "meatpuppets," itself by the way, deserves some discussion, but not here. I can only comment that I see no real difference between having your associates and friends come to Misplaced Pages to support your argument, vs. recruiting associates and friends to echo you, from among people who are already here, and post on your TALK pages. What's the big difference? Today's WP newbie is tomorrow's vet. SBHarris 20:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete. Let's try some objective documentation. Notability of researchers is demonstrated by the scientific third party recognition of their research. Web of Science finds 22 papers, of which the most highly cited is the one in Science mentioned above--cited a total of 12 times. The one mentioned in JGerontolA has been cited 4 times, the one in AnnNYAS has never been cited. Clearly not widelyrecognized by his peers outside his own institute and its publications. DGG (talk) 03:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe we're arguing about how many times a gerontology paper in Science has to be cited by other papers to be significant. What, is it 13 and I missed reading the cutoff? I know, you'll say "more than average." Do you KNOW the average? Or do you just mean more than the average of academics who get a paper into SCIENCE in the first place?? SBHarris 03:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment OK, SBharris, here we go, some comparative data.... I searched in Web of Science for all items published in 2002 in Science (excluding news items and such that hardly ever are cited, I only included articles, letters, and reviews). That gave 1283 items. The most cited one has 1779 citations. The average number of citations is 100.23. The article on which Cole is a co-author ranks 966th. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.... So, no, it's not cited below average with a difference of just a couple of citations. It is way below average for Science.... In addition, this is not even a real paper. I looked it up and it is a 2 paragraph letter to the editor (something most academics would not even put in their publication list). Cole is 4th author out of 7, the least prestigious place. I see no reason here to change my delete vote, quite on the contrary. --Crusio 10:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Dr. Sanjay Gupta thought Dr Coles was enough to be featured on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/blogs/paging.dr.gupta/2006/12/supercentenarian-looks-back-over-112.html

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2006/12/19/gupta.supercentenarians.cnn

That's a lot more than the 'average' professor. It's also not a 'self-published' source. We also find popular citations with bloggers and the anti-aging communities:

http://pimm.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/sens3-stephen-coles-on-the-secrets-of-supercentenarians-slides/

Hmm, University of Cambridge, UK.131.96.70.143 03:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment. The 1st link makes no mention of Dr Coles, the 2nd won't work for me, and the 3rd is an acknowledgment for allowing Coles' slides to be used on blog about immortality. Nothing there that can be regarded as reliable sources. —Moondyne 05:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Comment. CNN and Sanjay Gupta...not reliable sources? Rubbish. Your computer not working? That's the basis?131.96.70.143 06:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Robert, have you actually ever take the time to read Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources? I suspect you haven't because your comment seems to be saying if a name is in print then that is a reliable source. Per the guideline: "A reliable source is a published work regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Evaluation of reliability will depend on the credibility of the author and the publication, along with consideration of the context." (my emphasis) A passing mention of a person in CNN or a blog only tells me that the person exists and that is not in dispute. What is in dispute is, whether the person is notable, and those url's don't help me answer that question. —Moondyne 12:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge into GRG. —Moondyne 09:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I have respect for double major Ph.D, M.D. He did do a comprehensive autopsy (on Microsoft PowerPoint) on George Johnson, 112. Neal. —Preceding comment was added at 05:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, did I not add in the 4 tildes? Another shot. Neal 06:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC).


  • Keep: Papers written by Dr. Stephen Coles stimulate others, how to live to very old age. See some examples of Dr. Coles's recent papers:

1. Coles, LS; Earliest validated supercentenarian by nation of birth; REJUVENATION RESEARCH, 10 (3): 425-426 SEP 2007
2. Coles, LS; Living and all-time world longevity record-holders over the age of 110; REJUVENATION RESEARCH, 10 (2): 243-244 JUN 2007
3. Coles, LS; Earliest validated supercentenarian by nation of birth; REJUVENATION RESEARCH, 9 (3): 423-424 FAL 2006
4. Coles, LS; Living and all-time world longevity record-holders over the age of 110; REJUVENATION RESEARCH, 9 (2): 367-368 SUM 2006
5. Coles, LS; Earliest validated supercentenarian by nation of birth; REJUVENATION RESEARCH, 8 (3): 201-202 FAL 2005
6. Coles, LS; Validated supercentenarian cases aged 114 and above; REJUVENATION RESEARCH, 7 (4): 271-273 WIN 2004
--Kletetschka 18:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

— Kletetschka (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
— Kletetschka is new but interested in keeping relevant articles on wikipedia for others to learn.
  • Reply. - No actually they don't strengthen the case in any way I'm afraid to say. They show that he is an academic but nothing out of the ordinary that would warrant his inclusion in an encyclopaedia. For future reference I would seriously recommend reading WP:BIO and WP:PROF which give a good idea on what is needed to meet the requirement. - Galloglass 19:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Nobody is contesting Dr. Coles' qualifications as a scientist or denying that he reports without bias from a strict medical perspective. The question here is whether he is notable in an encyclopedic sense. That he clearly is not. I strongly doubt that "many people read his papers", because they are all published in difficult to obtain journals (unless one works at a University or other research organisation where the library might have access to these journals). --Crusio 19:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment REJUVENATION RESEARCH is a journal with impact factor greater than "8" in year 2006. Impact factor 8 measures highly cited journal with broad audience. Publications in REJUVENATION RESEARCH along with CV show that Dr. Stephen Coles is a notable person. This notability warrants recognition of Stephen Coles in an encyclopedic sense. --Kletetschka 19:58, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Remark REJUVENATION RESEARCH has indeed the highest impact factor in the ISI category "gerontology". L. Stephen Coles is listed as being on its editorial board. I still don't think that this tips the balance and will not change my delete vote yet, but it starts looking like a close call. --Crusio 20:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
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