Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:18, 13 November 2007

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I'm not sure if this is being aimed at being a guideline again, but {{essay}} is all it should strive for. If expert editors don't have any special powers, there doesn't need to be any formal process to recognize them. Furthermore, it is dubious as to whether they should have any special recognition beyond a list of their achievements. If an editor is expert because he or she has three FAs, they should say "I helped promote three FAs" if they want to, and leave it at that.--Father Goose 07:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Getting an article to FA status is not an individual's effort, but a collaborative one as is the editing of all articles in Misplaced Pages. You cannot say "I have three FAs", you can only say that you contributed alongside all other editors that edited that article to bring it to FA. You can add a star to your user page, if you want to, but that is it. I do not see that this page can get any traction as a proposal, and as an essay it does not read as one. Leave it as historical. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as Misplaced Pages goes, the only thing you have to demonstrate your expertise, be that in editing, in policy, in community work, etc, is your public identity as defined by your contribution history. See WP:AKASHA. Note that being an expert does not automatically means anything in particular. You can be an expert and be a disruptive editor (I have seen those), and you can be an expert and be a model Wikipedian (I have seen these as well), so "expertise" in its own right is meaningless for this project, without other very necessary attributes for that expertise to be of use to the project ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

WADR, I'm not ready to leave this concept in history. I'm not sure I've presently it properly. I'm not sure I have a clear conception of what "guidelines" are. Maybe I should pitch this idea as a project?

I would like to see an editor's list of achievements verified, certified, whatever, and if they met Jossi's criteria for a model editor, then they would be Basic Experts(TM). Wouldn't there eventually be hundreds, or thousands of these editors, found in dozens of different WikiProjects? It'll just be a pretty little badge on a userpage, while the "actual" goal is the identification of individuals targeted for Expert retention.

As I've just read some of the intro to that page, specifically the seemingly perfectly descriptively concise historical impetus of the essay, I rest on the reference to Expert rebellion, where "discontent was expressed against a range of situations in which amateurs stood behind dubious or plainly wrong positions in spite of their utter lack of knowledge of the topic at hand." A further reference in the latter essay describes the claim that "Misplaced Pages offers very little incentive for editors who wish to contribute to expert topics."

These aforementioned "amateurs" should, in my view, make up the mass of Expert Editors(TM). I don't mean the truly childish amateurs, but those who have gained a balanced, expert knowledge of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. With a WikiProject to certify people, we can ensure our experts adhere to all five pillars. If this isn't a desirable goal for someone, they can be WikiGnomes. If they don't want to be WikiGnomes, they might want to edit Wikia.

With a cult of the Five Pillars in place, they will certainly recognize, in the spirit of Esperanza, the contributions of real world academic experts, and there will be WikiHarmony and WikiProgress. And if those same real world experts desire a formal standing on Misplaced Pages, they will follow the five pillars. They won't be administrators, and their contributions will remain editable by anyone, but their contributions will have the support of the community (see talk page :P ).

Part of the hazing ritual ensures our minority of Specialized Experts(TM) won't claim ownership, and generally dissuade the kind of personal investment that leads to hurt feelings, because not all experts are right all the time. I'm not even sure some experts are right all the time, but they're probably right most of the time. Maybe Misplaced Pages is getting too precise.... It almost hurts being on the cutting edge.

Now that that train ran out of steam, how about some suggestions for making this thing read like an essay, instead of the rough sub-page that it currently is. No? Everybody would rather shut it down? Can I be Frank? 02:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing presently reads like a bunch of back-slapping. To put it extremely bluntly: fuck recognition. Nah, too blunt. Just edit the encyclopedia, earn the respect of those who notice your work (which tends to be ample anyway), and leave it at that.--Father Goose 06:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This essay starts by defining "expert editors" as those who are expert at editing Misplaced Pages, then it defines "specialists" as those with expert knowledge of a topic, then it swaps usages and refers to "expert editors" as those with expert knowledge. The whole first section, the one that deals with expertise in editing Misplaced Pages, appears to be a distraction. IN any case, it should stick with one term for the subject editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the slightly reworded version? (diff) Can I be Frank? 01:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Running straw poll

Shut this idea down and salt the mind it came from

1. Definitly shut it down, against the point of wikipedia--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 18:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
2. As if we didn't have enough stratification of users. Good grief. SHUT IT DOWN NOW. --Durin 18:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
3. If there is any place for anything remotely like this, it is certainly somewhere in a galaxy far far away from wikipedia. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 00:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
4. While I assume the intentions of the editor suggesting this are good, the last thing Misplaced Pages needs is an aristocracy. - Revolving Bugbear 19:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
5. This is a very bad idea, kind of like crossing the streams. Haven't you people learned anything by supposedly "expert" editors like Essjay faking credentials and getting into all sorts of mischief. This proposal will only create an unnecessary hierarchy that has the potential for abuse written all over it. Dr. Cash 08:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

   You fail to show good faith. Not everyone is Essjay. And how much mischief did he get into? The whole wiki idea was latched onto because it gave us the ability to examine every single one of Essjay's edits. Jimbo saw Essjay coming five years ago. The system works, trust it. Can I be Frank? 22:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Has a little potential, but not worth the effort

I do not think this is likely to get anywhere, but there is a serious issue that on WP we have a tension between trying to be all inclusive and democratic, yet we want to get it accurate. The latter involves experts. I do not know how we do his. As an expert on some scientific areas, I am less than happy about most of the arguments for using experts, but use experts we must. How do we do that? --Bduke 11:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

What are the arguments for using experts? Doesn't Misplaced Pages already use experts? I think the status quo is that nobody gets recognition, expert or not. Should a section for arguments for expert recognition be worked into the essay? Can I be Frank? 01:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Has good potential, I hope somebody else works on it

• Recognizing people with extensive knowledge in a specific subject matter is only a benefit. Identifiable experts make it easier for one to seek collaborators on a specific project or an expert peer review for a specific page. The very fact that wikipedia is built on research and that you cannot become an expert of anything without spending extensive time researching/studying while developing such skills then it should be a no brainer for why such people will fit right in wikipedia. We're all people here and everyone loves being recognized for their devotion to their interests, therefore experts should feel welcomed and respected here, the same way they are in real life all for sake of wikipedia benefiting. I pity anybody that is clueless as to why a collaborative project devoted to the collection of knowledge would need experts and professionals. 74.13.88.201 23:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm working on this essay/project

• Can I be Frank? 02:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

More comments

Template:RFCpolicy It should take about 5-10 minutes to read the essay and talk page, to this point. Thanks for your time. Can I be Frank? 03:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think spending time categorising users rather then working on the encyclopaedia itself would be a waste of resources to. On a more basic level I don't think, from what I've read about the issue, it will go anyway to solve the problems of expert retention (which I assume is what it's designed to do). It seems to me that the fundamental problem is a perceived, or real, lack of support for scientific views in scientific articles, and possibly other articles on academic subjects, when it is being disputed by views outside those views established by academia. I don't believe ranking editors will really help with this. If this is the problem that your trying to address perhaps setting up a place "experts" or people defending the scientific view can take problems for support and quick action, if necessary, would help more but this would need the support of a number of editors to work. This probably isn't the response you wanted but I think it's great you’re trying to come up with a way of improving the situation, and so the encyclopaedia, I just don't think this is the right idea. --Kaly99 15:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this is not the right approach. If you're trying to encourage subject-matter experts to contribute more to Misplaced Pages (or stick around), giving them a meaningless badge is not the right approach. If you're simply trying to bestow honorifics on editors, it's a bad, bad idea. However, providing a place where such experts could go to get technical and policy advice and assistance would be a very good idea.--Father Goose 19:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

the other end of the spectrum

I'm not sure that heavy traffic articles such as featured articles are where expert editors are needed most. Misplaced Pages is full of low traffic articles where vandalism makes it very hard to maintain even modest quality. A support system for expert editors within Misplaced Pages would be useful because Misplaced Pages now attracts a significant number of disruptive editors who specialize in making edits that can only be recognized by experts as being bogus edits. This arbitration case provides an example of why Misplaced Pages needs to attract and support expert editors. I think it is good to support the participation of experts in wikiprojects and maybe there should be a central wikiproject all about supporting expert editors. Such a project could keep detailed editing portfolios for expert editors who are valued by the Misplaced Pages community. Such a wikiproject could also be a central hub for reporting POV pushers and scam artists who can be flagged by the community as needing to have their wiki editing histories evaluated by experts. Misplaced Pages has a page where editors can get help for dealing with typical vandals from administrators and it would be useful to have a similar page for getting help from experts when POV pushers and scam artists are first detected. --JWSchmidt 20:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

MVEs: most valuable editors...who wants to start such a list? I'm not foolish enough to want to put myself on it, but maybe you and the other contributors here should be? If someone claims to have expertise, and then offers to provide something akin to mentorship, I there's a pretty high probability that that volunteer would at least be on the list of more valuable editors. Unless you want to say that WP:EA is the page to go when one encounters a potential POV pusher (except the NPOV pushers, that is), thereby short-circuiting a need for this possibly duplicative effort.

Maybe the whole project is against the evaluation of editors. After reading the warning on WP:Esperanza, I don't feel that a (hopefully) community-endorsed, three-tiered hierarchy (non-expert, expert, academic expert) is "overly hierarchical", mirroring the three tiers of adminstration (non-admin, admins, and ArbCom). If the community imposes this secondary, editorial hierarchy upon itself, the whole project could always be dissolved like Esperanza. Can I be Frank? 07:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really interested in situations where "someone claims to have expertise". What I am interested in is when the history of edits by a Wikipedian is recognized by the community as being of value to the community, the community finds ways to support such editors and Misplaced Pages finds ways to make use of demonstrated expertise to improve the encyclopedia. In my view, this is simply a rational course of action for improving the encyclopedia. Editors with expertise in subject areas can spot bogus editing by POV pushing scam artists and cite published sources that debunk bogus editing by clever vandals. An informal "system" exists by which editors drop by wikiprojects looking for help from experts. It seems to me that there is room within Misplaced Pages to increasingly develop and facilitate this kind of utilization of expertise. --JWSchmidt 21:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability

Editors who disclose (some of) their personal information are more valuable then those who are otherwise electronically anonymous, yesno? Just because I fall in the latter category doesn't mean I can't be a valuable contributor, and all those in the former are not necessarily in agreement with our project's goals. How hard is it to check a users credentials? Make a few phone calls, mail a few letters, send a couple faxes, sign some consent forms? And if a person is willing to do this, what should they get in exchange for this certification? I say nothing more than a WikiBadge; they're still a fallible volunteer subject to administrative action, just like in their real vocation (kind of).

What kind of verification is required for admins, and the ArbCom? Is there a rational fear of a community-endorsed token program for recognizing experts of all flavors, or just a knee-jerk, it-might-negatively-affect-me, type of reaction? Can I be Frank? 02:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Scientific peer review

Editors interested in this "Expert editors" page may care to look at Misplaced Pages talk:Scientific peer review and its three archives. If nothing else it demonstrates the difficulty in getting any kind of agreement about the role of experts, or the definition of experts. We are currently deciding whether to wind up that Project or not. --Bduke 02:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)