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/Infobox /Economy /Demographics —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarvagnya (talk • contribs) 06:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

(Incomplete) English translations of the National Anthem and Song

This article has been frozen from editing, so I can't do it myself, but can somebody please remove those two (incomplete) English translations of the National Anthem and Song? You can't just take the first line (not even a complete sentence!) of a poem (both the anthem and song of India are composed poems after all), translate that to English and call it the names of the National Anthem or Song. The poems ARE known as "Jana Gana Mana" and "Vande Mataram" respectively, yes, even in English, and it's utterly foolish to just translate the first line and put it out there below the real names of those poems. If English-speaking readers can't understand "Jana Gana Mana" and "Vande Mataram", well, that's just too bad, but that doesn't mean you go around putting in your own little bit of original research into this article and call it the names of the National Anthem and Song of India. In any case, please look at the articles on Pakistan and some other countries with non-English principal languages. Nobody's been translating the first line and putting in their bit of original research in THOSE articles, so why all this love for the India article, huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.2.107 (talk) 14:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Religious demographics

The demographics subsection says that Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains make up about 98.9% of the population. That leaves 1.1% for the rest. This includes Jews, Zoroastrians, Baha'is, Sarna and others. Later it says that Tribals are 8% of the population, and in the Tribals article it says that Sarna is their majority religion. WTF? 124.185.197.226 05:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Subdivisions of India

Why is "Subdivisions of India" required as a separate section on the page? There is a navigation box for "States and territories of India". The map with all the states marked on it, along with the three column list of states and UTs, does not look good on the page and doesn't really inform a reader much about India, other than the first sentence, which could simply be integrated to another section. The list is really not required there, is it? Has there been a discussion on these lines before? I'll shut up if there has been one. The US page doesn't have a similar list, and countries like Australia with just a few states, or UK with its mention of its four parts can't be the reference. Then again, there could be many arguments in favor of sticking to the list that is in place, like somebody is going to point out. --KeynesJohnMaynard 21:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

This really requires a response from someone more experienced on this page (like user:Nichalp or user:Ragib), however, I will note that some pages like FAs Peru and Germany that do have the subdivision sections, have more sophisticated navigation options there. I made a post about it on this page here, but got no response. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer lies here: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Countries =Nichalp «Talk»= 02:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Ajanta Image

I am opposed to the Ajanta image because:

1. It is very unclear - I used to think my monitor was the reason I couldnt see the image, but after getting a new HP tx1000z, I still have a hard time making out the image.
2. Theres already a Maharashtra image - Few people have gotten upset regarding the regional balance.
3. Image isnt really mentioned in text
4. The caption doesnt relate to history

Proposal:

I would like to suggest replacing the Ajanta Caves image with the Taj Mahal image under the caption: "The Taj Mahal was built in 1648 by the Mughal dynasty" (or something similar) because:

• The Taj Mahal is more a historic artefact than a current cultural thing
• It would give us more room in the cultural section.
• The caption right now relfects Taj's historic nature

Let me know what you guys think. Nikkul 19:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• I am completely and irrevocably against this idea. The Taj Mahal does not belong to the history section. If the Taj Mahal had not been built, the history of India would have been no different. The culture of India, however, would have been different. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• If the Ajanta Caves had not been carved, India's history would not have differed at all. Similarly, if the Taj had not been built, it would not have affected present day Indian culture. Nikkul 23:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, you do have a point in your first sentence. I disagree with your second sentence. The construction and the continued presence of the Taj Mahal have had a profound influence on Indian culture (on later styles of architecture, on popular styles today, and on how Indians think of their culture). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Well again, im talking about politics section image.. It should be Image of Indian parliament right? Unanimous? Lara_bran 15:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I have been saying this for a long time that the Taj image need to be replaced because the world knows about it and there are other hidden architectural marvels that need to be there in this article since the world must know about other Indian architecture and culture. Here is one video from the discovery program. The lost temples of India. The video is about Rajaraja Chola and the temples he built. Chanakyathegreat 11:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

BSReddy changes

Is there a consensus to accept or reject the changes made by BSReddy? WhisperToMe 06:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is my case:

Hindi, English are official langauges for the union government of India. Telugu , Kannada , Bengali, Hindi are official languages for respective state governments in India.

If Telugu which is spoken by 80 million people is official language in of the indian states then how come only hindi, english would be classified as official languages of India.

I have no problems if english and hindi are listed as official languages of union govt of India.

Andhra pradesh is part of India. So if a decision is made to list union govt's official languages as official languages of India , then telugu is also an official language of India

India is comprised of its people , its state govts and its union govt, not just its union govt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 (talk) 06:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The U.S. has no official languages at the federal level, yet Louisiana, a state, has French as an official language. That does not mean that the French for "United States" should be listed in the main article, since French is only official in Louisiana - No other states have French as an official language. WhisperToMe 06:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

A country has a national langauge(s). A govt has official languages(s).

India does not explicitly declare any language as its national language(s).

A state govts official language or a union govts official langauge should not be written as official languages of that country if there are multiple official langauges in the state and union govts.

either explitly state whether it is state or union govt or include all official languages of the states and union as offical languages of that country.

India and US are different. India is no new found land. Bsreddys 06:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hindi and english are official langauges of the union govt of India.... and not whole of India

But then why are they listed as the only official languages of India(but not union govt of India) Bsreddys 06:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

If telugu is spoken by 80 million people and if they are indians and telugu is official language of one of the states of India then how come telugu is not official language of India??? yes I would agree if you say telugu is not official language of union govt of India. Bsreddys 06:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

India is not same as union govt of India. union govt and state govts and its people together form India.

Hence you cannot just only include hindi and english as official languages of India.

FYI India also does not have any language(s) declared as its national langauge(s).

an official language need not be accepted as national language but a national language in general would be its official language or one of its official languages. Bsreddys 06:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Also scheduled languages makes no sense ?? are they scheduled for some event or something ??? Bsreddys 06:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

And one of the user says official is implicit in scheduled languages. I dont think so. There is every need to make it explicit. There is official ness in whatever comprehension when a language is official recognised by union govt of India(by means of including it into the eigth schedule) and when a language is official langauge for one its state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bsreddys (talk • contribs) 06:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Official_languages_of_India

wiki details on official langauges of India. Bsreddys 07:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

You guys came too late...There was a whole arguement that took place last month. Go find it read it. personally i think we should go to the official site of india and list the languages that it says there. there are hundreds of languages which r spoken by Indians which do not need tobe listed. If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! this is the india page. if the government says Hindi and English and X and Y areofficial languages of India, then Hindi English, X and Y ARE official languages of India. Nikkul 07:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear BSReddys: Nikkul is correct and so is WhisperToMe. Besides you have violated 3RR many times over. I have left this message on the presiding admin's talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! <----------- Nikkul... you dont have to me tell me dont come here... mind your words... I am an indian I will come here... who are you to tell me dont come here ???? you get lost from here.... you dont come here ....

Hindi and English are official languages only for the union govt of India... not whole of India. And "scheduled languages" dont mean anything ... 75.36.214.142 17:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! <----- Dear flower, You have already seen the calibre and potential of Nikkul. If the founder fathers were all like Nikkul this country would have disintegrated long back.

and regarding whispertome, he does not even know what are national langauges of India. He even pasted on my talkpage that hindi and english are national languages of India ... which is not correct and far from truth. A person who knows about india should be moderating this site... my 2 cents ... my 2 rupees ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 (talk) 18:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear BSReddys: Nikkul is correct and so is WhisperToMe.

> Dear flower, You have already seen the calibre and potential of Nikkul. If the founder fathers were all like Nikkul this country would have disintegrated long back.

and regarding whispertome, he does not even know what are national langauges of India. He even pasted on my talkpage that hindi and english are national languages of India ... which is not correct and far from truth. A person who knows about india should be moderating this site... my 2 cents ... my 2 rupees ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Standard Urdu has approximately the twentieth largest population of native speakers, among all languages. It is the national language of Pakistan as well as one of the 23 official languages of India. <======= I got this from one of the wiki reference. So what is urdu ? is it one of the official languages of India?? It makes no sense to just quote the official langauges of the union govt as the official langauges of the whole country. Also India has no national langauges.

As a large and linguistically diverse country, India does not have a single official language. Instead, the Constitution of India envisages a situation where each state has its own official language(s), in addition to the official languages to be used by the Union government. The section of the Constitution of India dealing with official languages therefore includes detailed provisions which deal not just with the languages used for the official purposes of the union, but also with the languages that are to be used for the official purposes of each state and union territory in the country, and the languages that are to be used for communication between the union and the states inter se. 75.36.214.142 20:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

User BSreddy / 75.36.214.142,

All im saying is that you shouldnt expect to see the official language of Andhra Pradesh listed as the official language of India if India doesnt list that language as official. If you want to see the the official language of AP, then go to the AP page where ull find the official language of AP as said by the govt of AP. Here ull find the official language of India as said by the government. Also, learn to sign your comments. This is an encyclopedia not a gathering of India's forefathers.Nikkul 04:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

BS Reddy, do you have any sources to back up your claim or is it your personal interpretation? =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Based on hindi and english being official langauges for the union government you are trying to extrapolate them to be the official languages of the whole country.

Based on Telugu being in part of the "official languages commission" of India and based on it being the official language of state of telugus with 80 million population I am extrapolating to be one of the official languages of India . Because India is made of union govt and state govts... not just union govt.

And dont tell me not to come here. I am a telugu Indian and I will come here. If at all you guys go and visit hindi prachar sabha site. OK

63.119.227.6 17:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As you can see here, Bsreddys (talk · contribs) was blocked for 48 hours at 00:40 on the 29th of October. That he is editing as an IP at 17:58, is a violation of the block. At the very least the block should be increased by another day. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Only person doing any extrapolation is you. Everything we have said is backed by scores of respected sources, both Indian and foreign. And please, learn to sign in. --Blacksun 09:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

He can't (sign in); he's still blocked. (Notice, he was signing in earlier.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

BS Reddy, we're inviting you to a civilized conversation. Please cite reliable and independent sources that contradict the fact that Hindi and English have been given official status by the Constitution of India as the official language of the Union. The page, may we add, is the article on the Union of India. Unless you can come up with reliable sources to cite your claim, I suggest you stop wasting everbody's time on your personal ideas. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Reddy, it's not worth trying to convince here in wikipedia that the Official languages as announced by the central government of India contains all 24 languages. The official viewpoint of the central government is still very biased in this regard and is not anything secular/equal. The rules favour and gives priority to Hindi and English. No provision is made to make sure that the remaining languages recognized as official languages are given the same status as Hindi and English. If you wish to protest write to the prime minister and various ministers of the central government and other political parties rather than trying to correct it here, because you are wrong. The equality in this regard is still not there. Chanakyathegreat 12:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Amba Vilas palace image + Caption

1) I find Amba vilas place image not important enough to be part of the rotation system.
2) I find the image quality to be poor. Only thing you can tell is that it is a big structure with small domes on top.
3) It has very suspicious and non-qualified caption: "Most visited tourist attraction in India"
If rotation is going to be used to put images like this with captions like that in the article, I am afraid I made a mistake supporting it. --Blacksun 13:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

A monument which was estimated to have attracted more visitors than the Taj aint important? Good luck with your argument. Sarvagnya 17:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess we pause the rotation for now and first screen all images through consensus and filter out the poor ones. Only after this procedure, should we continue the rotation. KnowledgeHegemony (talk • contribs) 13:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both Blacksun and KH. To user:Sarvagnya, According to this article, over a hundred "paintings by Raja Ravi Varma are the prized possessions" of the Mysore Palace. Since user:Sarvagnya has just seen fit to remove the painting of Sakuntala by Raja Ravi Varma, might he also consider removing a fake Maharaja's 1912 monument to poor taste that houses over a hundred such paintings? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sakuntala image was removed from rotation? I dont really understand how the rotation code works. However, Sakuntata image better be in rotation or I am going to be upset. --Blacksun 15:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone wanted to remove it and did it. The reason - one photo per state. Smart isn't it. Wow! Now I am really starting to like Misplaced Pages. KnowledgeHegemony 15:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Very smart indeed. Just the way somebody removed a significant effort like rotation from the article today without having the courtesy to inform the relevant people that it is going to be removed. Wow! Amazing! We all better start liking Misplaced Pages for the way it is, we dont have an option -- ¿Amar៛ 16:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• sigh*. I dont need a tribune article to tell me that the Mysore palace houses RV's paintings. I've been visiting the Amba Vilas and other palaces in Mysore for as long as I can remember. And each time, a good part of my visit is spent staring in awe at the paintings. Anyway, which part of "one pic per state - rm shakuntala image. the trissur pooram is more typically picture postcard Kerala." do you have trouble understanding? As for your pathetic "..monument to ugliness/poor taste", you might want to impress that upon the millions who throng to even just get a glimpse of the palace each year. huh. dont know why I bother dignifying your BS with responses. you troll me into it. dont you? Sarvagnya 20:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you get a RS for your claim that it is the most visited in India and only then put a caption like that or else its an empty statement.

And dude, I have been to Amba Vilas and Taj Mahal both. Obviously, theres no comparison between the two. So plz don't compare the WONDER with Ambas.

KnowledgeHegemony 11:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Well KH, for one, I am not comparing the two. I leave such inanities to the likes of you and fowler. More importanly though, I have a sense of history which you clearly dont seem to share. The Mysore palace was where the likes of Nalvadi Krishnaraja Wodeyar, Sir MV, JC Wodeyar, Sir Mirza Ismail and such other visionaries held court. The Mysore palace is where the seeds of Indian democracy were sown through their pioneering attempts at creating institutions which today have morphed into our legislative assemblies and councils. The deeds of these gentlemen serve India richly to this day. They changed the history of Karnataka and India in ways the begum who rests in your WONDER wouldnt even have dreamt of. In short, its surely a far cry from the hapless begum of yours who died trying in vain to add to her litter. Like I said, it calls for a bit of objectivity and knowledge of history to appreciate things like this. Come back when you've done some reading. Or better still, go back(to the palace) after you've done some reading. Places of historical interest arent zoological gardens where you go, gape at the monkeys and come back. Sarvagnya 19:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

user:Sarvagnya said: "In short, its surely a far cry from the hapless begum of yours who died trying in vain to add to her litter."

"add to her litter?" That doesn't display a "sense of history;" it does, however, constitute misogyny, since Mumtaz Mahal likely had no choice in the matter when she became pregnant for the 14th time and later died in childbirth. I implore you to retract those words. They are ugly and uncalled for. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Your prejudice is showing. You can chose to live your life with hate. Just dont bother to use wikipedia to spread it because you will be stopped. And I still do not see any evidence for "most visited tourist site" in India claim of yours. Maybe I missed it? --Blacksun 10:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

What venom dude! By the way whats this- "your Begum" and "your Taj Mahal"?? Why do make (and take) things so "personal(ly)"?

Also stick to the debate. I never talked on historical aspect about the Amba Vilas and clearly was talking in terms of architecture (since photos put up in Culture section are concerned with architecture). So please don't bother to flaunt your historical knowledge on a debate which concerns with architecture. Cause that amounts to BS (as you call it). KnowledgeHegemony 10:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Also where is source for "the most visited monument in India" ? KnowledgeHegemony 10:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

"Haven't you guys understood by now that I don't put things down unless I've checked the sources. Amazing!". It is just that I dont spin "cock and bull"(as Amar puts it) stories from my sources as someone here is wont to. Sarvagnya 19:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear user:Sarvagnya:

• The incorrectly worded and grammatically shabby report from The Hindu, that you have yourself quoted incorrectly, says, "Better known as the “Mysore Palace”, the Amba Vilas is among the most visited monuments in India and attracts more number of tourists than the Taj Mahal. Well, almost. The number of visitors to the Mysore Palace in 2006 was 25,25,687 and as per the Archaeological Survey of India figures while the figure was 25,39,471 tourists visited the Taj Mahal in Agra."
• What the report doesn't tell you is that the Mysore Palace is not a ticketed monument of the Archeological Survey of India. In fact, the ASI has no interest in the Mysore Palace, because the latter, having been completed in 1912, is not old enough yet. Who then is compiling the Mysore Palace ticket numbers? Maybe ASI is, but we need some reliable indication of that.
• The same newspaper also had another report, which quoted an official of the Indian National Trust for Art and Cultural Heritage as saying, “the Taj has always been the most visited and most popular Indian tourist destination. People abroad consider the monument synonymous with India.” Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

PS And then there is this also "reliable" report from the Indian Express .... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Well now (after this revelation) please remove the caption- "most visited monument in India". It would further fool readers who come Misplaced Pages's India page. KnowledgeHegemony 08:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

"Revelation"? What revelation? If you want to change the caption to read "...one of the most visited..", go ahead.. who's stopping you? That doesnt however, call for irrelevant drivel on the lines of "...it is not a ticketed monument of the ASI.. so who keeps count" etc.,. The directorate of archeology and museums, GoK takes care of the monument and feel free to take your 'grave' concerns about visitor count to them. Or perhaps to the Director General of Epigraphy(ASI) who operates out of his office in the palace complex. Whatever it is, take it offline and stop filling pages here, for, you seem to impress only the Kuntans and nobody else with such blather. Sarvagnya 08:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The revelation that we cannot take what you say seriously as you not only write inaccuracies but defend doing so. --Blacksun 09:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sarvagnya, even after your own source turned out to contradict your tall claims you still don't seem to accept you were wrong (and that the article got the better of you). Anyways, it that it was a "gem" of a "cock and bull story" that you spun.... KnowledgeHegemony 14:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

"Śakuntala" and Mysore Palace (continued)

Is the "Śakuntala" image a representation of Kerala, the home state of its artist? Saravask, who created the rotation template and wrote much of the Kerala FA, clearly didn't think so; otherwise on October 23, he would not have made this revert. In case this is not clear, let me explain: while the summary mistakenly points to the Toda image as an example from Kerala, it implies that it does not regard "Śakuntala" as also representing Kerala; otherwise, a few edits later, Saravask would not have allowed user:Sarvagnya to re-add the Trisoor/Pooram image (see here).

A week later, on November 1, user:Sarvagnya deleted "Śakuntala." What was his justification? His edit summary says: "one pic per state - rm shakuntala image. the trissur pooram is more typically picture postcard Kerala." The "Śakuntala", however, was there in the rotation template first. (In the straw poll, "Śakuntala" received more votes than Tagore.) Why then did user:Sarvagnya unilaterally add the Trisoor/Pooram image if he thought "Śakuntala" already represented Kerala? And why did he then wait one full week to delete "Śakuntala"? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

PS I have reverted user:Sarvagnya's unilateral deletion of Śakuntala. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It is a gross disrespect of other editors to remove Sakuntala image. It is one of the few images that actually was voted on and had 6 (for) vs 3 (against). How can you remove that image and replace it with something NO ONE HAS EVEN BOTHERED TO VOTE ON?? This is disruptive and arrogant. --Blacksun 09:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Archive

This page needs to be archived ASAP. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I just added the archive bot User:MiszaBot, which will archive all discussions older than thirty days now. Gizza 06:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, in line with WT:INB, I changed it to ten days since this is a very active page. Gizza 06:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Ha, it has dropped from ~ 276kb to ~ 47. Gizza 03:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing Image rotation templates

In the Straw Poll for Rotation of Images a majority voted for - For Rotation of Images (with decision on image quality made at WP:PINSPC and with no "Featured Quality" condition on image. But no WP:PINSPC quality procedure has taken place now that 2 weeks are over. Hence, in respect of the the "Consensus poll" I am removing the templates. Continuing with it (ie.without the quality check) is a mockery of the civil discussions which took place on the matter and the people who voted. Hence I am removing it for now. Once the correct procedure is followed we can put the templates back. KnowledgeHegemony 14:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Let us decide on where to discuss the images. I think we need to have all the images on display somewhere on a talkpage and then under each image, there should be a discussion. Do let me know where this is takin palce. Nikkul 21:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added the image rotation templates back to the article. Pending further discussion and consensus to remove image rotation entirely, we should discuss ways to improve it. Which images do you oppose User:KnowledgeHegemony? There are a few that I believe are still non-relevant, as I've said before, which I have not removed because I believe that we came up with a good compromise. What do you suggest as a way of improving the images? Or should we put the Tagore image back in place, which was the last image in the Culture section before this very workable compromise was installed? A great deal of discussion and compromise went into image rotation, let's not throw it all out. I still believe it is the best of our choices, and we should work at improving it. ॐ Priyanath talk 19:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• user:Priyanath, I won't revert your edit (in light of the Śakuntala image's reappearance in the rotation template), but I'm afraid many questions need to be answered. Nowhere was it agreed to, as is stated here that the Śakuntala image represents Kerala (on account of Kerala being the home state of its artist Raja Ravi Varma), and more importantly, nowhere was it agreed to that if it did represent Kerala, it was inferior in such representation to the later-added Trisoor/Pooram image; indeed the latter addition was never discussed on the English language Misplaced Pages.
• Why is an image of the Mysore Palace, a Maharaja's 1912 extravagance, a representative of Karnataka, when there are many more famous representatives around, two of them World Heritage Sites?
• Until the Śakuntala image, the choice by six votes to three over the Tagore image, is secure in the rotation template without threat of deletion by the minority opposed to it, and the questions raised, both above by user:KnowledgeHegemony and user:Blacksun about the Mysore Palace, and here by user:Blacksun, are adequately answered, this problem will continue to plague this page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree that certain images are more representative of aspects of culture, rather than geographic regions — and therefore we can have more than one image for a certain region in those cases. For example, Tagore represents literature rather than Bengal, and an image representing Bengal could (and should) be added. I think there's enough support for Sakuntala to keep it. Even though it doesn't have my support, that's part of the compromise we each need to make in order for this to work.
• Mysore Palace is notable and widely visited. It's no more of an extravagance (actually less) than the image holding permanent place in the culture section, the Taj Mahal. I'm for keeping Mysore Palace.
• If we're going to discuss inappropriate images, then we should be discussing Toda first. If we're going to be more tolerant, and accept choices that have significant support, then we should accept that the current system of rotation is working far better than the previous approach. Yes, it needs some fine tuning, but it is definitely a huge step in the right direction. ॐ Priyanath talk 19:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for your conciliatory words; meanwhile, unbeknownst to you (?), user:Sarvagnya has once again deleted the Śakuntala image from the rotation template.
• You still haven't answered my main question: why is the Mysore Palace more notable than the other more important monuments of Karnataka? Do you have any reliable academic sources? As for "extravagance," I used the word, not in its secondary meaning of "exorbitant" (in expense), which the Taj certainly was, but in its primary meaning, (OED) "excessive, irregular, fantastically absurd." which the Taj most certainly is not.
• The Toda dairy image had more votes than Tagore, it had numerous reliable secondary academic sources attesting to the importance of the Toda in culture, and it is a Featured Picture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Updated Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, these things should be discussed before getting into more (endless) revert wars. Sarvagnya isn't alone in doing that, by the way. The length of rotation, originally set by Saravask at 24 hours, was never discussed before you arbitrarily changed it. I think the next step is to come up with a process for looking at images. Saravask, when he added image rotation, suggested "We're starting this new thing the way WP:FA began: at first, articles were hand-selected by good-faith contributors based on "refreshing, brilliant prose". Then, as more people got interested, the consensus-based WP:FAC and WP:FAR processes matured." It may be time to develop that process, and should perhaps be discussed on the India Project page rather than here. I think it would be helpful to draw in some editors who haven't been part of the toxic environment here during the last year. I think that discussion (process) is more important right now than (the same editors as always) fighting over every image. ॐ Priyanath talk 19:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the template rotation back to daily. I didn't "arbitrarily" change it, as you put it, but as a part of my post here, echoing Ragib's, which made the point that for the active editors of the India page, who go to the page several times a day, hourly change would be the best way of simulating (during the trial period) the experience of an average reader, who goes to the page several times a month. As for Saravask's analogy of "refreshing brilliant prose," it would be great if it could be applied here; the problem here, however, is that the pictures (with the exception of Toda, or Apatami) are neither refreshing nor brilliant, as evidenced by their poor performance in the FPC process. So, what are we attempting here? Replicating what already exists, namely the FPC process, but lowering the standards several notches? And then relying on the consensus of people who, in the throes of their parochial compulsions, seldom choose to display the pictorial expertise they might possess? What is taking it to project India do? If you want to judge brilliant pictures, you start by first acquiring brilliant pictures. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Culture Of India Additions

"Indian cuisine is characterized by a wide variety of regional styles and sophisticated use of herbs and spices. The staple foods in the region are rice (especially in the south and the east) and wheat (predominantly in the north)."

I think having two lines to describe the cuisine of india is rediculious. There is so much variation and diversity that we need to mention. The sad thing is that actual dishes that r popular havent even been mentioned. Only four ingredients have been mentioned.

There has been a lot of talk of expanding the culture section and I think this is one example of something that needs to be expanded.

Nikkul 22:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Culture can be expanded to an infinite length. The shorter the sweeter. =Nichalp «Talk»= 04:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

If we mention more dishes than are already there, we would have to take regional balance into account. Thats means that if we add dosa from the South and fish from Bengal, we would have to add five or six more popular dishes for every region of India. The current two sentences would then be bloated to at least six unless we list them, but then it won't flow. Gizza 05:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Major City

In Major city Gurgaon need to be add. http://en.wikipedia.org/Gurgaon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.42.120 (talk) 03:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? =Nichalp «Talk»= 05:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it merits any attention because it has a relatively small population and it has no significant cultural, religious or historical site. If anything, Ahmedabad might be added, but I think the list is good as is. Sseballos 23:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Image Rotation

Are we going to discuss the images that make the final cut for culture rotation? I think we should discuss it here since this page is the india page. Also, has the discussion started about each image? and Where? Nikkul 18:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Amba Vilas, Taj Mahal & the Hindu error

I recently wrote to the Hindu Readers' Editor asking them about their policy regarding errors in their archived online pages. The reply I received included their admission to have erred in a story which was talked about earlier in this talk page. The excerpt from the letter contains the response of the electronic division of the newspaper to the Readers' Editor.

The discussion that he has linked to in wikipedia has to do with the Amba Vilas Palace (the Mysore palace) where one editor has linked to a story in The Hindu ( http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081755371000.htm ) in which we *have* committed an egregious error: The headline says: "Mysore Palace beats Taj Mahal in popularity" while the copy says "Better known as the "Mysore Palace", the Amba Vilas is among the most visited monuments in India and attracts more number of tourists than the Taj Mahal. Well, almost. The number of visitors to the Mysore Palace in 2006 was 25,25,687 and as per the Archaeological Survey of India figures while the figure was 25,39,471 tourists visited the Taj Mahal in Agra. "

Thank you

K. Narayanan The Readers' Editor, The Hindu, Kasturi Buildings, 859 -- 860 Anna Salai, Chennai 600 002 India

--Not pointy 17:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

What was/is the error? If you read the article completely, the headline is still consistent with the content. - KNM 17:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the numbers closely, you'll see that the Taj had just slightly more visitors than Mysore Palace, rather than the other way around. Essentially, they are relatively equal in popularity based on those numbers, so it wasn't an 'egregious' error by any stretch of the imagination. It is interesting to see that they are both such popular attractions, however. ॐ Priyanath talk 18:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have seen the numbers and that is why I said, "if you read the article completely, ....".

The article clearly states this: Sources said if the combined figures of the ticketed tourists and those who enter the main gate but not the Durbar Hall were counted, the number of tourists visiting Mysore Palace would easily outnumber those visiting the Taj Mahal.

In whatever way we look, this is in sync with the headline which states, "Mysore Palace beats Taj Mahal in popularity". So, from above mail from The Readers' Editor, I am not clear what was/is the error. - KNM 18:37, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I didn't read the article completely. So it looks like Mysore Palace is more popular, and the headline was correct. ॐ Priyanath talk 19:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, Mr. Pointy.. what's your point? If you dont have one, stop bothering us. Your time is perhaps better spent handing out worthless barnstars to your guru. Who else would accept barnstars from you, anyway. Sarvagnya 19:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In journalism, such a mistake is an egregious error: both the title and the subtitle (especially the latter) are inaccurate. The title says: "Mysore Palace beats Taj Mahal in popularity," the subtitle adds, "Official figures indicate that more tourists visited Mysore Palace than the Taj Mahal in 2006." The "official figures" certainly don't say that. More troubling, however, is that the entire story, by way of later citing unofficial figures and estimates for 2007, is looking to report one point of view. They quote (very ungrammatically) the Archaeological Survey of India; but, the reporter did not even check the ASI website, otherwise he/she would have discovered very quickly that the Mysore Palace is not a ticketed monument of the Archeological Survey of India. (In fact, as I say above, the ASI has no interest in the Mysore Palace, because the latter, having been completed in 1912, is not old enough yet). It didn't occur to them to ask, "Who is compiling these figures? And are they reliable?" It didn't occur to them to look at an earlier story (by a few weeks) from their own newspaper, which quoted an official of the Indian National Trust for Art and Cultural Heritage as saying, “the Taj has always been the most visited and most popular Indian tourist destination. People abroad consider the monument synonymous with India.” It didn't occur to them to do a Google search and read (as I did) this story, published July 25, 2007, from the Indian Express, which also cited official figures, and which did not have the Mysore Palace in its top five most visited monuments. The point user:Not pointy is making is simply that the Hindu is not a reliable source here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ajanta painting

Why is'nt this image a part of the image rotation program?Dineshkannambadi 03:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well.. we will get there. We've started rotation with the Culture section for now. Sarvagnya 03:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Even other sections such as Business and Polity needs rotation. Business is not just about the stock market. Its also about what drives it. Bangalore is the Technological Centre of India, Hyderabad is not too far behind, Chennai for manufacturing, Goa for Ship building.... Images from these locations should also be displayed. Regarding Polity, Delhi may be the capital and the North Block may be the location where the power centres reside, but these people draw power and support from regional centres. No reason why Bangalore's Vidhana Soudha, Hyderabad's Assembly house just to mention a few, should not appear on a rotation basis.Dineshkannambadi 03:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to the inclusion of the image of the nuclear missile on the the India page. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 11:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You will just have to wait. We need to perfect the way we dorotation. Once we perfect theculture rotation, wecan move on with others. Nikkul 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Straw Poll on Inclusion of Contemporary Literature

The paragraph on literature in the culture section has in the past had a sentence or two on classical literature and a sentence on the modern period (post-1857) which refers only to Tagore. Some users have now added a sentence on contemporary literature which talks about the Jnanapeeth awards to Kannada writers. I am personally against the inclusion of such sentences because it opens up a Pandora's Box of other candidates. Why for example, is a Ghalib, Mir Taqi Mir, or Muhammad Iqbal not included? Why not Kabir or Tulsidas? Why not a Munshi Premchand? Why not a Bankim Chandra Chatterjee? Why not a Subramanya Bharathi? Surely, these writers are more famous than the Kannada awardees? And speaking of more contemporary literature, why is Indo-Anglian literature not included? A G. V. Desani, R. K. Narayan, or Mulk Raj Anand, all published by Penguin 20th Century Classics (not Penguin India or Oxford India), which these Kannada writers are not? (And, yes, Penguin does publish works in translation.) You get the point. The Indian literature paragraph can easily be made very long just trying to accommodate a handful of the most notable writers, which gets nowhere near including these latest luminaries. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No offence meant, but with what wisdom do you conclude that the Jnanpith awards and the award winners are not valuable to Indian literature? What is your qualification or expertise on the matter? The usage of "Kannada gang of seven" clearly shows a bias, that is best kept out of wiki.Dineshkannambadi 14:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say anywhere that "they are not valuable to Indian literature." Just that they are not as notable as many others like Ghalib, R. K. Narayan, Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, or Tulsidas, who are all conspicuous by their absence. I agree that "gang of seven" is pejorative; I have since changed it to "Kannada awardees." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Again sir, your viewpoint. If these writers you mention are more notable, how come they did not get a Jnanapith award? Surely, someone should have noticed their greatness? I can name several Kannada writers other than the Jnanapith award winners who are no less than the ones you have listed above. Why only Tamil Sangam. Why not Vachana Sahitya and Haridasa sahitya, two unique literary idioms, not influenced by any other literary tradition, by virtue of which Kannada language has demanded a classical language status. You may delete an earlier statement, but your bias cant be deleted.Dineshkannambadi 15:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Three of the four writers I mentioned last didn't get the Jnanapeeth award because they were long dead by 1965 when that award was instituted. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages works simply by stacking up reliable secondary sources. My expertise or yours is unimportant. I am confident any of these four, Ghalib, R. K. Narayan, Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, or Tulsidas, have many more reliable secondary sources (academic peer-reviewed articles in internationally known academic journals) than the Kannada writers. For example, comparing Ghalib and U. R. Anantha Murthy (one of the seven Kannada awardees), on the British Academic and National Library Catalogue for books, the keyword, "Mirza Ghalib" turns up 394 entries (most secondary sources); "U. R. Anantha Murthy," (and its variant spellings), turn up 54 entries (most primary sources, i.e. his own books). The JSTOR catalog of articles in internationally recognized journals, has 354 articles on "Ghalib" and only 20 for "Anantha Murthy" (and spelling variants). On Google Advanced Search for academic sites (site:edu), "Ghalib <and> Urdu" turns up 596 (university) sites, whereas "Anantha Murthy <and> Kannada" turns up only 59. Finally on Google Scholar: Advanced Scholar Search, in the social sciences and humanities journals, there were 223 articles returned for "Ghalib <and> Urdu," whereas there were only 38 for "Anantha Murthy <and> Kannada." I think it is pretty clear, who is more notable in Misplaced Pages's definition of notability. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

In the US Library of Congress Online Catalog, the "guided search" (boolean) for "Ghalib <and> Urdu" (as keywords) turns up 601 references, whereas that for "Anantha Murthy <and> Kannada" turns up 37. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

We aren't talking about individual writers here, are we? We are just mentioning the fact that Jnanpith awards are the highest literary awards conferred in India and Kannada writers have won the highest number of awards so far. There is no point in dwelling this discussion upon individual names. Moreover, when we talk about Jnanpith awards, we are automatically referring to Indian literature after 1965. I don't see the problem in mentioning about nation's highest literary award in the culture section. Gnanapiti 18:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not the nation's highest literary award. It is not an official award like the Bharat Ratna or Param Vira Chakra, where there is an hierarchy. (I just corrected the Misplaced Pages Jnanpith Award page which committed the same error.) The Sahitya Academy Fellowship (which is awarded to the "immortals" of literature and literary scholarship and at any one time is limited to 21 individuals) is the nation's highest official literary award. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It *is*. The government websites such as this and this say, Jnanpith as the India's highest literary award. - KNM 18:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Since when did the US Library of Congress's New Delhi office become an arbiter of Government of India's intent? A "nation's highest award" by definition is an official award like the Bharat Ratna or the Presidential Medal of Freedom in the US. You can say "one of the highest literary awards" and then provided sources, but you can only say "highest" when it is official and deemed as such, which this award is not. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

More references from reliable sources: BBC says, Jnanpith is India's highest literary award and Rediff too. Thanks, - KNM 19:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The "nation's highest award" is by definition an official award decreed to be such. The Pulitzer Prize is considered to be the most prestigious American honor for literature, and you can say, "it is widely regarded as the highest literary honor in the US" etc., but you can't say it is the "nation's highest literary honor". As simple as that. Is there a Government of India source that says it is the Republic of India's highest literary honour? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, let us stop doing original research on what is considered as "nation's highest award". Your own logic below on mandate reliable sources is applicable on this topic also. I have provided a bunch of reliable sources which say Jnanpith is India's highest literary award. Here is one more from Times of India and another from Indian Express, and yet another from The Hindu. Just as a matter of fact, according to the notable person in that TOI article, "for any indian writer, receiving the jnanpith is the ultimate recognition as it is also considered the indian nobel prize for literature." I repeat, I have provided enough number of reliable sources supporting this fact and will stop now. Thanks - KNM 19:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It is you who is doing the original research by imputing to the nation (and its people) an award that belongs to a private organization, no matter how prestigious the award might be. It is not just your mistake, the Jnanpith Award page itself had displayed (until I corrected it) Indian honours and decoration template, thereby fudging the distinction between a nation's award and an award in the nation. The bottom line is that the Jnanapeeth Award is not a part of India's system of honours and decoration, and therefore not an award of the nation, now matter how popular, prestigious, or coveted it might be, and notwithstanding BBC's statements. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Fowler, you wanted to see a Government of India source. Please see this. Website of Press Information Bureau of Government of India. According to this Government of India source, Jnanpith award is India’s highest literary award. Hope that helps. Thanks - KNM 20:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

:) I didn't mean a press release by the Press Information Bureau (especially in the context of another award). You want me to show you what other stuff that same office publishes? I meant the official organization that awards literary awards, (in this case the Sahitya Academy) is pretty clear on what is the Republic of India's highest literary recognition. See their web page announcement here. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That press release was officially from Ministry of Human Resource Development, Government of India. Per WP:RS, we are not mandated to use only government website as references. I have provided literally all major newspapers from India, as the references. You asked for a government source. I have provided that as well. Do you mean to say, all the newspapers/magazines/portals I have provided above have wrongly mentioned this fact? Thanks - KNM 20:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to use the Press Information Bureau's Overcoming Arthritis article for the Misplaced Pages arthritis article? The problem is not a dearth of sources attesting to the Jnanpith's importance, but simply that it is not the "nation's highest literary award," simply because it is not official. The National Medal for Arts is the United States's highest literary award (more generally for the arts), but the Pulitzer might be more famous and prestigious. What is so hard to fathom about this? Looking for more and more references, is simply barking up the wrong tree. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Vote: Against Inclusion of Kannada writers and Jnanapeeth Awardees in Literature Section

• Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Vote: For Inclusion of Kannada writers and Jnanapeeth Awardees in Literature Section

• Very important. The highest literary award given in India is no way inferior to a Nobel Prize.Dineshkannambadi 14:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
• Considering it as the most significant literary award given in India, it is worth mentioning a sentence about Jnanapith awardees. Regarding Kannada writers, should follow the precedence of having mentioned Rabindranath Tagore's name for Nobel award. - KNM 17:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

My Opinion: I support the inclusion of one sentence on Jnanapeeth Award, preferably rephrased heavily. I think it is rather interesting - I never knew about it personally. The fact that it is a trust by TOI makes it notable in context of India. However, I do not support the sentence saying Kannada writers have won it more than anyone else. There is no point to that as it really does not mean anything except for a cool trivia. You can write about the fun little facts of which state has won it most in the article on Jananapeeth Award. Not here. Making a separate note since neither of the above two categories satisfies my pov.--Blacksun 15:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO, mentioning about Jnanapith and not mentioning Kannada is like mentioning Noble prize for literature in India and not mentioning Tagore. If Kannada cant be mentioned, so should'nt Tagore or Sangam. BTW, No offence meant to either Tagore or Tamil Sangam. I just want to see India represented more inclusively.Dineshkannambadi 15:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Dinesh, I strongly disagree with you. I also think you completely missed the point I was making. You need to really think about what additional value the fact that more kannada writers have won the award has in the context of Indian culture. The real answer is that it means nothing - it is just a source of pride and to some extent, chest thumping. I cannot support you on this matter alas. However, I will meet you half way in regards to mentioning the award and a general statement about them.

BTW, you do not do yourself service by making a statement like "not mentioning Kannada is like mentioning Noble prize for literature in India and not mentioning Tagore." Hindi writers have won it 6 times which is umm one less than Kannada writers?

--Blacksun 10:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

My Opinion Country's highest literary award must have a mention in the culture section, there isn't any doubt about that. Kannada writers have won the maximum number of awards which again is the fact which must have a mention in that section. Gnanapiti 18:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Correction It is not the nation's highest literary award. It is not an official award like the Bharat Ratna or Param Vira Chakra, where there is an hierarchy. (I just corrected the Misplaced Pages Jnanpith Award page which committed the same error.) The Sahitya Academy Fellowship (which is awarded to the "immortals" of literature and literary scholarship and at any one time is limited to 21 individuals) is the nation's highest literary award. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The government websites such as this and this say, Jnanpith as the India's highest literary award. - KNM 18:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The US Library of Congress's New Delhi Office is a "government web site?" Which government? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That is a reliable source. Here is another one from BBC which clearly says, Jnanpith is India's highest literary award, and one from Rediff too. Thanks, - KNM 19:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Jnanpith is the nations most coveted award.Dineshkannambadi 18:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

So now it is "coveted?" Fudging already? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Please dont get personal. The Noble prize is no awarded by any govenment either. Its awarded by the Noble committee.Dineshkannambadi 19:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

But the Misplaced Pages Nobel Prize in Literature page does not claim that "it is the highest literary award in the world." Please read the lead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh, I am wonderstruck that after all these months and all your FAs you're still not aware of WP:DFTT. Seriously, do we even need a debate to prove that the Jnanapeetha is India's highest literary award? Ignorance may be bliss for some, but its not amusing anymore. Sarvagnya 19:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the basic problem here is some users who are unwilling to see India from todays perspective, but perhaps still live in the heady days of the Raj. We need to look beyond the Noble prizes and Pulitzer prizes given by foreign offices and committees (which incidently was never given to the most deserving, Mahatma Gandhi) . A link provided by User:KNM succinctly states the problem, that international exposure to literature is provided to only a few languages. Its very important for us to come together and represent the real India. This is the whole purpose of this article.Dineshkannambadi 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't disagree with everything you say, but you should then change Misplaced Pages policy first. I understand that it may not be the real India, but until the secondary academic sources deem certain things to be true, we can't include those things in Misplaced Pages, however much we may have the "truth" or the "situation on the ground" or the "mood of the street" on our side. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Small comment: You can't really use a post-1965 award to justify historical significance of any recent writer over writers from pre-1965 times. For example, I hope no one is saying that between Ghalib and a recent Jnanapeeth awardee, the latter is more significant or even as significant as Ghalib. Any section or paragraph on literature needs to focus on the whole continuum rather than bicker about awards and awardees. --Ragib 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Some of the Kannada 'gang of seven' and Ghalib were perhaps only a generation apart. Comparing them is hardly anachronistic. Certainly not half as ludicruous as pitting Tagore and Kalidasa against each other. Such inanities are best left to Fowler. Sarvagnya 22:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sir, no one is trying to claim the significance or greatness of any writer here. The fact that Jnanpith awards are the highest literary awards conferred in Rupublic of India is not going to change. In fact the article mentions about Kannada literature as a whole rather than cribbing about any awardees or individuals unlike some people here. Gnanapiti 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I dont think we are tring to say which award is greater or lesser. If a Noble prize is a good enough reason for Tagore to be on the article (with due respects to Tagore), Jnanpith is equally prestegious and justifies Kannada writers to be on the article. Considering that none of us on this thread are wise enough to decide whether Tagore was greater or Kuvempu (and thank fully so), under no circumstance should a foreign award be given more importance than an Indian award. That simple.Dineshkannambadi 21:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No, the reason why Tagore is mentioned is not just because he won the Nobel prize, but because he is thought to be notable by the reliable secondary academic sources (as detailed above in the different academic catalogs). Much more so than Kuvempu or any of the other six Kannada writers. Listen, why waste time? Why not take me on and go for a Misplaced Pages mediation about Tagore and Kavempu as cited by the reliable secondary sources? Or Ghalib and Kavempu? Let the mediation committee decide. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Tagore or Kuvempu or Ghalib or Kuvempu? Are you the master of evading the discussions or what? Now you want a mediation to decide who is the greater writer among two, for absolutely no reason. The issue is straight and simple here. Jnanpith awards are THE highest literary honors conferred in the country and needs to have a mention in the article. Kannada writers have won the highest awards maximum number of times, which also needs to have a mention in the article. No one here need to argue about who is the greatest among above mentioned writers. That's not the issue here. Besides all these, if you want to go for mediation and waste everybody's time, please go ahead. Gnanapiti 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Dont threaten me with mediation.Dineshkannambadi 21:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not threatening you by a long shot, but inviting you. It is very simple: Here are the catalogs: 1) Catalogue of Major Academic and National Libraries in the UK and Ireland, 2) US Library of Congress On Line Catalog, 3) The JSTOR catalog of journal articles, 4) Google advanced search for university sites (site:edu), and 5) Google Scholar. As I have already shown you above, Ghalib turns up, on average, an order of magnitude (ten times) more articles/sources than U. R. Anantha Murthy. Why is he then less notable than these Kannada writers? If you want a group, I can name: Ghalib, Mir Taqi Mir, Muhammad Iqbal, and Firaq Gorakhpuri, and I will wager that they will turn up many more reliable secondary sources in the above catalogs than all seven Kannada writers put together. I am happy to add Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encarta to it. The mediation would be about a) whether the five catalogs together with the two tertiary sources (signed articles by experts) constitute reliable secondary sources in Misplaced Pages, and b) whether the Urdu writers are more notable in such sources than the Kannada writers. Why the hesitancy? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You are the one with the problem with Jnanpith. So you go for mediation. I will handle it when it comes along.Dineshkannambadi 22:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Mediation requires two parties. The problem is not just mine. By giving pride of place to the Jnanpith Awards, which were instituted in 1965, I feel that you and others are (at the very least) creating room for these seven Kannada writers who are not as notable (by Misplaced Pages's criterion of notability) as other writers like Ghalib, Mir Taqi Mir, Muhammad Iqbal, who are not mentioned anywhere in the culture section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't get why should it be mentioned that Kannada writers received maximum number of awards. Why give this award a linguistic or a regional nature? Anyways (even though I hate these regional debates with the "my region" got more awards undertone) I must say the equation is so tight that its not even woth mentioning the trivia that Kannada literature got maximum as Hindi and Bengali writers got 6 and 5 each.

But if thas the case soon sentences will come up in the sports section like

• The Param Vir Chakra (PVC) is India's highest military decoration awarded for the highest degree of valour or self-sacrifice in the presence of the enemy. It may be awarded posthumously and, indeed, most of the awards have been posthumous. Most awardees were from XYZ regiment.
• Arjuna award is the highest ward conferred for excellence in sports in India. Most number of awardees are from XYZ state.
• Then Bharat Ratna is India's highest civilian award, awarded for the highest degrees of national service. This service includes artistic, literary, and scientific achievements, as well as "recognition of public service of the highest order." Most awardees are from Tamil Nadu and Uttar Pradesh.

Hence lets refrain from getting these narrow- minded linguistic and regional trivia on this page. KnowledgeHegemony 07:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Very well put. I entirely agree with you. I like the one about the Param Vir Chakra :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Indian architecture

I noticed that only Muslim and Hindu architecture was mentioned. For the sake of secularity, for which India is known for centuries, I have added the most popular Jain monuments at Shravanabelagola, recently voted the most popular among India's seven wonders. We also need to address the issue of Buddhist architecture at Sanchi or Bodhgaya.Dineshkannambadi 18:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

We had discussed about Mugal and South Indian architecture. So I added Jain architecture. There is no need to discuss if we should secular in religion.Dineshkannambadi 18:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no mandate in Misplaced Pages to be "secular" (which you interpret to be even-handed with respect to different religions) in any discussion of notability. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no mandate not to be secular either. Just our sense of fairness.Dineshkannambadi 19:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh? The mandate is for notability and reliable sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

And you are saying Jain architecture is not notable?Dineshkannambadi 19:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It is enough to mention Indian architecture, not detail everything in that article on the India page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to say, but there is no mention of Hindu architecture, which dominates Indian architecture. Second of all, there is no reliable way of saying that "a jain monument was voted as an indian wonder" There was a vote of 100,000+ people for the new 7wonders ofthe world, but even that is not considered valid on wiki, so saying a jain monument was voted best is not a good reason. Second of all, jain monuments are not soooo popular that they need tobe mentioned in a summary of Indian architecture. If ur saying that something needs to be added, it will be mention of Hindu influence in Indian architecture because it is sooooo thorough in India. Nikkul 20:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, wikipedia is not secular (giving all religions equal weight) it is a display of reality on the ground. For example, if youre reporting on Saudi Arabia, you will report mostly on Islam and not on other religions. This is the reality on the ground. In India, most of the country is Hindu. Nikkul 20:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sir, If Indian culture needs to be displayed realistically, without any prejudices, its all the more reason to discuss Hindu, Muslim, Jain and Buddhist architecture. Each have influenced Indian culture and each is inseperable. I have authored a FA on on type of Hindhu architecure, and am in the process of another and I fully realise what I am writing is true. Todays population based on religion counts to and means nothing, if one really wants to justify any topic on "Indian architecture". Dont forget, the oldest known/surving monuments in India are perhaps Jain and Buddhist.Dineshkannambadi 21:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed all mention of Muslim art? what does this sentence tell you, such as the Taj Mahal and other examples of Mughal architecture and South Indian architecture in the culture section. Does it seem like greek architecture?Dineshkannambadi 21:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Im sorry, I think you are prioritizing Jainism over anything else. Currently, no religion is mentioned in the text ( I Hope u realize this) If we're going to keep it like that, you are going to have to stop adding stuff about jainism. But if you are going to add religion into the topic, you will have to mention Hinduism before you mention anything else because of its thorough influence on indian architecture. Also, your edit keeps saying that some Jain monument was voted the best in all of India. This is POV and you can not have this. You can not say one is better than the rest cuz thats pov. Nikkul 23:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sir, the above comment you made really shows you dont know much about Indian architecture. Do you? I am not patronizing Jainsim or its architecture. I just understand better its influence on Hindu architecture and vice versa. Some of the earliest Hindu structures worth its mention are from Aihole , Karnataka (5th c). Some of these structures are directly related to Jain Basadi's and Buddhist Chaitya designs from where the designs were derived.Dineshkannambadi 01:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Culture Rotation

Where can we add images for the culture rotation? Also,where can we discuss images that are currently in the rotation? Nikkul 20:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I dont understand it either. --Blacksun 11:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Too much edit-warring, new rules for a month

This log is ridiculous. Too much edit-warring, particularly recently, so new rules.

• Any single-purpose accounts/IPs that turn up here on their first edit, make a revert or contentious edit, and then walk off, will be blocked.
• Uncooperative editing is not permitted. Do not make an edit that you know will be reverted. "Uncooperative" means: any edit that significantly shifts the POV balance in such a way that a reasonable outside observer must know in advance it will be unacceptable to the other side.
• Instant reverting without discussion will not be permitted either. If you simply have to revert, please wait until the issue at hand has been fully discussed on this talk page. Undiscussed reverts will lead to blocks.
• Edit summaries.All edits must be accompanied by precise, informative edit summaries. These must clearly indicate if an edit contains something potentially contentious. In particular, all reverts (complete or partial) must be clearly marked as such.
• Really blatant POV which obviously violates NPOV by simply declaring either side of the dispute right and the other wrong, may be treated like vandalism and reverted.
• Incivility on this talk page, or in edit summaries, will not be tolerated, and will be punished heavily by block.
• Anyone who violates 1RR within a 24 hour period will be blocked.

Violation of the above conditions will be rewarded by block, and savagely so, until the message sinks in. Moreschi 22:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh goodie, a Wiki-Musharraf. I hope I don't get banned. --Blacksun 11:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't mess the article around and you won't. Moreschi 12:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

You will also be removing people's legitimate arguments on the talk page like you just did? --Blacksun 12:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate this no-nonsense approach. Many articles stuck in a cloud of general bad faith and trolling could do with such a course of action, but since the party enforcing this needs to be uninvolved, we can rarely gather the manpower required. The precondition is, of course, that Moreschi will not himself edit the article. I am confident Moreschi is capable of the WP:UCS required to pull this off. Too often, wikilawyering successfully obscures the fact that it is mostly painfully obvious who is being constructive and who is being disruptive. dab (𒁳) 12:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No-nonsense approach - lol. Funny, how the same arguments are so easily found amongst supporters of dictators in real life. Equally amusing how the flaws of dictatorship in real life find their way back on Misplaced Pages. I refuse to contribute anything to the article if its being put under some sort of dictatorship. Not that it means much but hey :) --Blacksun 12:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY. Misplaced Pages does indeed have many aspects of a dictatorship. We are not trying to build a community enabling general pursuit of happiness, we are trying to write an encyclopedia. dab (𒁳) 12:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link - I fail to see the point as I wasnt arguing that it is a democracy. Maybe if you have a link that says it is a dictatorship feel free to link up. Otherwise, dont bother. --Blacksun 13:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Although, interestingly enough that link does state that Misplaced Pages is "primary method of determining consensus is discussion" - I am pretty sure there are links on assuming good faith too. I personally don't find people coming here in their "khaki admin" outfit threatening to "savagely" use their "khaki powers", deleting other user's comments from talk page and waving the arbcom flag (see talk-history) over any sign of dissension as conducive to discussion or good faith. *Scratches head* Maybe blanket threatening people is way people do thinks where you come from - I personally find it impractical. --Blacksun 13:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Awards and honours

• The same US National Endowment for the Arts that was quoted by user:KNM as saying that the "Jnanpith was India's highest literary award," also says here about writer Sirshendu Mukophadhyay, "He received India's highest literary honor, the Sahitya Akademi Award, in 1989 for his novel The Human Field."
• According to this Hindu report, the noted writer Manoj Das (in January 2007) "received the country's highest literary honour - Sahitya Akademi Fellowship."
• The Penguin Books Asian Studies Catalogue, says about R. K. Narayan's The Guide, "Narayan's most celebrated novel which won him the National Prize of the Indian Literary Academy (Sahitya Academy), India's highest literary honour." See the bottom of Sahitya Academy Awards: English page.

Are we now also going to figure out which state has (or has had) the largest number of Sahitya Academy Fellows and list that statistic too on the India page? How about film? The Dadasaheb Phalke Award is the nation's highest award for lifetime achievement in film. Are we going to say that the award has been awarded an equal number of times (ten) to West Bengal and Maharashtra? How about the Sangeet Natak Academi's Ratna Sadasya (Fellow), which the highest honour in the country for dance, music, and drama? Are we going to figure out which state has won the most? Or which of the three fields: dance, music and drama has won the most, and mention that? How about the Bharat Ratna, which according to its Misplaced Pages page is "India's highest civilian award, awarded for the highest degrees of national service. This service includes artistic, literary, and scientific achievements, ..." That award has unfortunately yet to be bestowed on a literary luminary. It has, however, been awarded for artistic achievement to Satyajit Ray (West Bengal), Ravi Shankar (Uttar Pradesh; WP has incorrectly mentioned West Bengal because of his heritage), M. S. Subbulakshmi (Tamil Nadu), Bismillah Khan (Uttar Pradesh), and Lata Mangeshkar (Maharashtra). So, should we also mention that the award has been awarded an equal number of times (two) to West Bengal and UP? Or, if you don't like regional characterization, should we say that it has been awarded four times for music and once for film? The point I am trying to make is that it is best not to go down the path of mentioning contemporary awards, unless you want a very very long culture section, and there is as yet no consensus for that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 06:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Slight correction ... actually, Ravi Shankar hails from Narail, East Bengal (now part of Bangladesh). His father Pandit Shyam Shankar served at the court of Udaipur, serving the Maharaja of Jhalawar. --Ragib 07:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ragib. Glad to be corrected! Complicating it even further is the Government of India's own web site, which lists Ravi Shankar with "United States" (probably just current residence). This, of course, would make any mention of the breakdown of the Bharat Ratna even more convoluted. Twice to West Bengal, once to East Bengal/Bangladesh/United States, once to UP, and once to Tamil Nadu! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Quote:"This, of course, would make any mention of the breakdown of the Bharat Ratna even more convoluted. Twice to West Bengal, once to East Bengal/Bangladesh/United States, once to UP, and once to Tamil Nadu! "

?!?!?! You are just seeing one page of the site! There are 40 awardees with 7-8 from each TN, UP and WB!! KnowledgeHegemony 09:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I meant only the awards to artists. There were five such awards (out of the 40). Sorry, maybe I didn't make that clear. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

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