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• WT:NAS

This article exhibits the WORST of what is the problem with wikipedia: it takes an unfounded belief by a very TINY, TINY minority of people--American Jews--and decides that everybody who opposes that idea is "anti-semitic". If an idea finds support from the LEFT, RIGHT, and CENTER like "new-antisemitism"--what happened to the old one?--then, maybe, just maybe, that idea has merit, and those who believe that 98% of the people from all strata are racist are just a bit mentally wanting. This article would be funny if it was not so tragically relevant to the reality of American STRANGE foreign policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.25.45 (talk) 02:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Organizations that fight anti-Semitism

I guess the question of whether these orgs are relevant depends on whether new antisemitism is one of the forms of antisemitism they challenge. <<-armon->> 22:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Bear in mind that many organizations (and commentators) consider the term "new antisemitism" to be a political epithet rather than a signifier of an actual phenomenon. Retitling the section as "Organizations that fight new anti-Semitism" would only beg the question, and would serve no useful purpose.

On a side note, I can't help but notice that most groups mentioned in the "organizations that fight anti-Semitism" list are from one particular side of the "NAS" dispute. This strikes me as ... well ... more than a bit leading. If we're going to have the list, shouldn't we diversify it by adding organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International (or Anti-Racist Action, for that matter)?

In any event, I have no objection to listing the arguments of the ADL, AJC, etc. in the main body of the article. CJCurrie 22:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

HRW and AI (ARA is fringe) have different, broader, mandates so they aren't the same. If the organizations actually involved in fighting antisemitism are all in agreement that NAS exists, that should be telling us something. <<-armon->> 03:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Zombietime image in the lead

For some time now, I've believed that the Zombietime image in the lede is unsuitable for this article. There are several reasons why I've reached this conclusion:

• The image is obviously leading, and a clear instance of well-poisoning. The "New antisemitism" article is supposed to provide an overview of the "NAS" concept, not to advocate for its proponents or critics. By including an obviously anti-Semitic image in the lede, we are effectively validating the concept.
• The image is not notable. Zombietime's image is of a sign held by single protester at an anti-war rally (an act which was presumably undertaken without the support or encouragement of the rally's organizers). The image has not been not widely publicized outside of Misplaced Pages, and is not independently notable.
• The image represents a fringe minority viewpoint. The poster's reference to "Counterfeit Jews" very likely represents a fringe, far-right and quasi-religious POV -- ie. that modern Jews are impostors who've usurped another group's identity. This view is held in some fringe African-African and British circles, but carries very little weight in the world beyond. It's certainly not a view held by most opponents of the "NAS" concept.
• We can do better. This is the most fundamental point: even if other editors don't believe that my previous remarks invalidate the relevance of the Zombietime image, we can surely choose a more representative image for this subject. I don't believe it will be especially difficult to find an image that has been the course of legitimate controversy, and has brought the NAS debates to light in a public forum.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.25.45 (talk) 02:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is, in fact, a specific image that I believe would be more suitable: Dave Brown's 2003 cartoon depicting Ariel Sharon as Goya's "Sharon consuming one of his young" (viewable here). This image was the subject of extensive debate on both sides of the "NAS" divide (as so was not leading), won a major international prize (certainly notable) and was featured in a major British newspaper ( not fringe). All told, it would be a much better selection for the lede than the current Zombietime pic.

What do others think? CJCurrie 03:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the main point of including the Z. image is not that it's either inherently notable or "typical" (whatever "typical" is even really supposed to mean in this context), but rather that it shows the general kind of thing which seems to be openly tolerated at certain allegedly "left-wing" demonstrations, where as long as you avoid certain codewords (such as chanting your love for Adolf Hitler or whatever), you can proclaim almost any bigoted hatred or defamation against Jews and/or Israelis and still be accepted as part of the demonstration. We could explain more or less the same thing in carefully neutralized and quasi-scholarly language, but the image makes this fact crystal-clear in concrete visual form. And the fact that the image does not use pure quasi-leftist rhetoric or symbolism makes it even better for the purposes of this article, since this article is predominantly about a certain observable practical convergence between elements of the far-left, the far-right, and Islamists, who have all found a common interest in Jew-hating. AnonMoos 11:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe you've made an interesting point, though perhaps not the one you had intended. As you've outlined the situation, the poster appears to demonstrate the concept of "new antisemitism", rather than inform viewers on the debates surrounding the term. Given that "NAS" is a disputed concept, I don't believe that our inclusion of such an image in the lede is appropriate (though it may be suitable elsewhere). It's certainly not the optimal choice.

LOL! NAS is a quisling concept that really says NOTHING, at least, nothing concrete. This is because, there is no central ideaology shared by the American AND European left, right, and center. Such an idea is SILLY. But, that image is SUPPOSED to imply that ALL these different and sometimes diametrically opposed groups share a virulent and TOTALLY, TOTALLY IRRATIONAL hatred of all jews BECAUSE they are Jews and NO OTHER REASON. This is why an article SUPPOSEDLY about defining this quisling and totally RIDICULOUS concept would want to lead with an image that lumps all these ideas together into something silly.

(Btw, there's no evidence that this poster was "tolerated" at the anti-war demonstration; the most likely explanation is that one (1) idiot decided to crash the event, and few people other than Zombietime noticed.) CJCurrie 21:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The placard is very large and very brightly colored (so presumably hard to ignore), and the person holding the placard appears to be surrounded by a closely-packed knot of people (not skulking around the fringes as a lone wolf). If the people who run such demonstrations don't want to be tarred with the brush of the New Antisemitism, then they should be much more vigilant in actively rejecting such expressions of opinion as part of their demonstrations, since currently a significant number of "Jewish-identified Jews" and people inclined to support Israel are convinced that groups such as A.N.S.W.E.R. and the general Berkeley demonstration culture do tolerate (and therefore passively endorse) such bigotry -- whether this is really true or not. Certainly I've never downloaded a single audio or video file from Indymedia, but I saw several years ago how many discussion areas on Indymedia were filled with racist bigotry and hatred. Such self-proclaimed leftist groups leaving matters ambiguous as to what they will tolerate accomplishes nothing other than increasing the degree of political acrimony in the USA, but many of the groups still don't seem to have come down hard against bigotry in this matter (or at least that's the impression which has been created, and which they don't seem to have done much to publicly address). AnonMoos 03:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, to avoid being "tarred and feathered" with a NAS brush, the people "running" this demonstration should be "vigilant" to who goes there. Such CHILDISH, CHILDISH reasoning is quite stunning. What do you think, they should also be "vigilant" of the pro-Israeli groups in the audience? I guess the concept of free speech to you is "antisemitic".

Completely agree with CJ (as people will expect since this has come up before). Could there be any copyright problems with the Dave Brown cartoon? I got myself into trouble before (and worse still got an independent admin into trouble) for questioning the copyright status of the Zombietime image. Itsmejudith 20:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The Dave Brown cartoon is currently featured on his biography page. I'm not familiar with the copyright situation; perhaps others could review the matter. CJCurrie 21:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The caption reads: "...this placard mixes anti-imperialist, anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-Zionist and anti-globalization imagery with some classic antisemitic motifs." This is indisputable. The only real, reliably sourced, debate about the "new antisemitism" concept is whether it's "new" or not. The phenomenon itself exists, it's a completely appropriate photo, and the caption doesn't take sides on the issue. I don't see any merit in the objections to it. <<-armon->> 02:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid this isn't correct. No one disputes that anti-Semitism still exists, and I don't believe anyone would dispute the fact that some expressions of anti-Zionism are anti-Semitic. There is, however, a large discussion as to whether "new antisemitism" is a legitimate phenomenon or a mere political epithet. By using this photo, we're effectively utilizing a fringe expression of bigotry to favour one side of the discussion.

(But even you disagree with what I've written, do you honestly believe that Zombietime's picture of one (1) insignificant demonstrator is the best image for the lede?) CJCurrie 03:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes I do. As you said, no (reasonable) person disputes the fact that some expressions of anti-Zionism are antisemitic. The actual debate you're taking about is where the line is drawn. I don't think there's any argument that the placard in question crosses all the reasonable "lines", therefore, it's a good example of what the article is discussing. If the protester is "fringe" -that's good. Hope he is. <<-armon->> 03:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The picture is unquestionably antisemitic, but it doesn't prove the reality of the "new antisemitism" concept. New antisemitism is supposed to outline the discussions around "NAS", as well as explaining the views of proponents and critics -- it isn't supposed to endorse one particular side within the discussion.

Seriously, why wouldn't the "Sharon" image be more suitable? CJCurrie 04:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

If the Z. image is really a picture of a far-right Christian religious kook holding up a bigoted sign as an accepted part of a nominally "left-wing" protest demonstration, then it's a perfect illustration for this article. At a thumbnail resolution, the Dave Brown cartoon mainly looks like a generic editorial cartoon, vaguely similar to numerous others -- the aspect of the cartoon which most steps over the line (the use of the word "kosher") is not visible unless the illustration is displayed at a rather large size. AnonMoos 07:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You hit the nail on the head, AnonMoos: "if the image is really...". Assuming that we are not arguing that Zombietime's website is a WP:RS then how do we know that this poster was really carried at any demonstration at all? What is there to say that the demonstration at which the poster may have been carried was "left-wing"? Itsmejudith 08:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the only part of it that I was neither accepting nor denying (instead leaving under suspension of judgement) was CJCurrie's apparent claim that the placard reflects Christian identity ideology. If Zombietime were a systematic fabricator in taking demonstration photographs, plenty of people would have had plenty of opportunities to expose him, but that doesn't seem to have happened... AnonMoos 09:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not a question of whether the photo is fabricated, but of whether we have a RS for saying that it was carried on a demonstration. I've looked again at Zombietime's website and his "hall of shame", where this photo appears first. The assemblage of photos there is clearly following an agenda. What I actually find most shocking is his juxtaposition of examples of perfectly legitimate political protest alongside completely illegitimate examples such as this one. NB also that there is no basis for your twice-repeated assertion of this being carried at a "left-wing" demonstration - Zombietime describes it as an "anti-war" demonstration. Unless you want to allege that only people on the left were against the war... Itsmejudith 10:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

If you want to see the photo in its original context, look at the photo page for that particular demonstration -- not the hall of shame overview page. It's nice that you clearly distinguish between what you consider "legitimate" and "illegitimate", but Zombietime's main point in setting up his site was that there seem to be a lot of people out there with much less firm personal boundaries. I assume the demonstration was carried out under the aegis of some such organization as A.N.S.W.E.R., and that those who consider themselves to be at least vaguely left-wing would have far outnumbered the Buchananites and followers of Sen. William E. Borah and Rep. Burton K. Wheeler. Frankly, I consider myself to be at least vaguely left-wing, and one major reason why I haven't attended an anti-war demonstration is that I don't want to affiliate myself with, or endorse, the assholes at A.N.S.W.E.R. AnonMoos 15:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps in the US then an anti-war demo is necessarily left-wing, which does not apply the UK or Europe generally, where a much wider range of public opinion has been against the war. On the general question of boundaries of protest, you will have noticed that Zombietime includes some very different categories: for example, people dressed as terrorists alongside people who are protesting naked, antisemites alongside people who just hate G.W. Bush. Placing these people together as similarly "shameful" is suggesting that we make a moral equivalence between them, and I find that suggestion repugnant. Itsmejudith 20:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

My observation is that moderates don't tend to go to demonstrations. They're busy at work, taking the kids to soccer, etc etc. <<-armon->> 01:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

2 million people demonstrated against the invasion of Iraq in London. For most of them it was their first (or only) demonstration. I'd be interested in your view of whether moderates have time to edit Misplaced Pages. Itsmejudith 10:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"For most of them it was their first (or only) demonstration"...unlike the sad gray people who are always there selling copies of Socialist Worker -which proves my point. Anyway, this is going waaay off topic. <<-armon->> 15:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

And rather fewer went on the next demo. In my case it was because, even as an anti-Zionist Jew, I did not like how the anti-Israeli message was delivered and given weight.--Peter cohen 16:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Where does the word "kosher" appear. I've checked the larger image and can't see it.--Peter cohen 16:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right, sorry -- I was influenced by my memory of a case of some other controversial cartoon (where the word "kosher" actually was used) into reading "kosher" into that image. AnonMoos 22:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There are other (and free) images that also give an overview of the subject. // Liftarn

Note the Jewish religious side-curls in that image. How typical. AnonMoos 08:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Of what?--Tom 17:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

By depicting the person with an Israeli flag shirt as having side-curls, the cartoonist is revealing that either: 1) His real objection is to Jews on the grounds of religion (not to Zionists on the grounds of politics) or 2) He is so utterly and abysmally ignorant of the relevant details of the middle-east situation (such as that no Prime Minister of Israel has ever worn side-curls, and many of those who do wear side-curls are ambivalent or even opposed to Zionism) that he would have done well to avoid sticking his foot into the whole topic. It's unfortunately somewhat typical for "radical" agitprop imagery to insert inappropriate religious symbolism into what are ostensibly supposed to be political posters, cartoons, etc. AnonMoos 18:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explaination. I'll admitt that I for one, would not be able to tell you what level/type of religion "militant settlers" are or what their specific beliefs are. Anyways, --Tom 15:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

My hunch is that your second explanation is spot-on and for that very reason this image works on a number of levels as an illustration of the NAS debate. Itsmejudith 20:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well it's a bit of self serving apologia from Carlos Latuff. Here's some of his other work: Image:Ariel Sharon by Latuff.jpg I don't think he's the sort of representative the "anti" side of the debate really wants. <<-armon->> 01:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Judith was being charitable when she assumed that he was a moron rather than a bigot -- AnonMoos 07:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

In any case, as far as the suitability of the shepherd cartoon (why a shepherd?) for this article, probably many people would find it offensive, but as also with the Dave Brown cartoon, the most offensive detail is unfortunately not too visible unless the cartoon is displayed at a fairly large size... AnonMoos 09:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a shepherd because as a reference to The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Feel free to draw your own conclusions. // Liftarn

That is your point of view. I would instead guess that the side curls combined with the rifle and handgun is used to indicate a settler type zionist. You may also notice the abcense of the large, crooked nose that is the hallmark of antisemitic cartoons (and now used in antiarab cartoons as well). // Liftarn

Unfortunately for your interpretation, only a relatively small minority of West-bank settlement-dwellers wear side-curls -- and the majority of Israelis who wear side-curls in fact reside in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods of west Jerusalem, where they speak Yiddish instead of Hebrew, attend yeshivas, are exempt from general Israeli army service requirements, and are by no means necessarily Zionists (some have pro-Zionist leanings, others are anti-Zionist, and a large number are somewhat ambivalent). However, thanks for the elucidation on the shepherding. AnonMoos 14:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

But there are some obvious examples. Ultra-Orthodox settlers do exist. Settler cummunities are attractive to the ultra-Orthodox as it offers cheap housing, segregated communities, and easy access to Israel. Ultra-Orthodox settlements include Beitar Illit, Modi'in Illit (aka Kiryat Sefer), Tel Zion, Immanuel, Mattityahu, Ma'ale Amos, Nahliel and Asfar. With over 70 000 ultra-Orthodox living in the West Bank (and 70% of the births) it's not that small. It may also be because the ultra-Orthodox are very hawkish in Israeli politics. // Liftarn

You seem to be using a very significantly different definition of the word "Ultra-orthodox" than the one I was using. Side-curls are not too often worn outside of communities where a significant proportion of adult men spend their days studying in traditional Yeshivas. I could believe that many of the Hebron city settlers and the floating population of west bank hilltop outpost kids wear side-curls, but I very much doubt whether most "Yesha Council" types do... Avigdor Lieberman seems to embody everything you most hate and despise, and he doesn't wear side-curls. AnonMoos 10:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Did people have an opinion on the Sharon cartoon linked by CJCurrie? I personally don't know that a picture in the lead is necessary, but this seems better for several reasons (particularly with a caption noting the controversy that surrounded the cartoon). There are a number of issues with the current picture, but one is simply that it's shocking, in a way that doesn't suggest an enyclopedic article. If people are saying the message in the photo is actually the crowd's reaction, also, I don't think that comes across. If we want a picture, I'd think the Sharon cartoon would be much more appropriate. Mackan79 13:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I already discussed some of CJCurrie's objections to the Z. image in detail in the discussion above. I don't actually insist that the image be the first one in the article, just that whatever is first be clear -- and unfortunately, the Dave Brown cartoon looks somewhat like just another generic editorial cartoon (unless you blow it up enough so that the word "kosher" is clearly visible), while the most offensive feature of the shepherd cartoon is again not clear unless the image is displayed at a large size (and might not be considered offensive unless you actually know something about the social meaning of side curls). AnonMoos 14:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Why does the image has to be offensive? The main requirement is that it's informative. // Liftarn

If it's a clear example of the kind of thing that some people consider to be the New Antisemitism, then it's probably going to offend somebody, just by the nature of the subject. AnonMoos 14:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This is why I think a caption would be important, since this would then explain the basis for the claims of New Antisemitism, as opposed to shocking people with a blatantly and obviously antisemitic picture. The thing is, one key aspect of New Antisemitism is that it is some way indirect, which is another problem with the picture we have. This is why I think the Sharon picture, along with a caption, would be more informative. It's also possible any picture in the lead is going to make too strong a statement about what "New Antisemitism" is about, in which case we may be better without one. With a good caption, though, I think the Sharon cartoon could be a plus. Mackan79 17:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well-considered public pronouncements by prominent personalities are often "subtle", but one of the allegations connected with the whole "New Antisemism" thing is that some of what is done behind the scenes and/or by less well-known people can be startlingly unsubtle. AnonMoos 18:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't really justify the ZT image either, though, does it? If I were characterizing this concept, one way would be "old wine; new bottles." That's not necessarily subtle, but if you still have the old bottle, then I think it doesn't qualify. There is also an element to the concept of antisemitism on the left; however to pick such a shocking image, with no notability on its own, over other options is what I think creates the issue. Mackan79 21:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the Sharon collage is not related to the concept of NAS while the Cry Wolf cartoon is. But, then there is no need to have an image just to spice up the article. It has to be relevant as well. // Liftarn

Actually, Mackan79 was referring to the Dave Brown cartoon, not to Latuff's Goebbels-esque vomitation. AnonMoos 14:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean the collage, but the one linked by CJCurrie here. Here's a search on the controversy; there was quite a bit about it at the time. Mackan79 14:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If we want informative, the ZT image illustrates the convergence of various "streams" of antisemitism in a way which perfectly illustrates the concept -which should be the point of a lead illustration. As for the Brown cartoon, it's ridiculous to suggest that picture of a man devouring a baby is "less shocking" or "spicy".

BTW CJC's WP:OR regarding the ZT photo is completely irrelevant and most probably wrong. For example, "Counterfeit Jews" -the most likely explanation is the claim that Jews (esp European Jews) are actually Khazars and have no claim to Palestine. This is very common in "anti-Zionist" circles. <<-armon->> 16:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

a) the image is unfree (and from a very biased source), b) that's OR. // Liftarn

Are you accusing Zombietime of faking the photo? AnonMoos 18:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not from a reliable source, but a very biased source. // Liftarn

Whatever -- No one has ever produced the slightest evidence that Zombietime doesn't do exactly the things which he claims that he does, viz. wander around at demonstrations, parades, and rallies associated with the general quasi-"leftish" culture of the Northern California bay area, and take photos of what goes on at the events, or in the immediate vicinity of the events. From all evidence, Zombietime's photos are more "reliable" than the Adnan Hajj photographs published by Reuters. AnonMoos 22:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, we don't have to prove a negative. It is the ones that want the image included that have to prove that a) the image isn't fake, staged or missinterpreted and b) that it is an example of NAS. And use reliable sources for that. // Liftarn

You're rather missing the point, which is that there are a lot of bloggers out there who would enjoy discrediting Zombietime, (i.e. doing a "Dan Rather" on him) -- but none seems to have successfully done this. AnonMoos 17:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

That is no evidence that "Zombietime" is a reliable source. Sounds a bit like a Russell's teapot argument. // Liftarn

OK, starting over here. First, I'm not at all convinced that the poster displayed is anti-semitic or has anything at all to say about Jews specifically. Yes, it contains Israeli flag imagery (as well as Nazi German flag imagery - is it anti-Germanic?) and it advances a theory that United States foreign policy is greatly distorted by the Israel lobby (a view which I don't share, but which is very common across the political spectrum). One could certainly draw anti-semitic inferences of Jewish world control from it. I would personally never display such a poster, for that reason. But it's another thing to attribute "classic anti-semitic motifs" to it. Actually, that's an odd turn of phrase. What is an "anti-semitic motif"? We couldn't get away with saying just "poster is anti-semitism" outright, but I think that "motif" is a vague weasel word designed to get around this.

Anyway, the real issue, per CJC, is the selection of an image designed to shout "AHA! Here it is, the New Anti-Semitism!" when the very existence of "new antisemitism" is very much in dispute. I don't know how copyright works here, but ideally I'd like to see the poster, the above cartoon of an Israeli settler, and maybe Abe Foxman and Norm Finklestein to boot. Eleland 23:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

How can a placard which shows two skullcapped Jews directly associated with a Satan-with-Swastika not be antisemitic??? 02:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnonMoos (talk • contribs)

Good question. As for "what is an anti-semitic motif"? Take a look at this >>

-and note the similarities. Also compare it to the other illustrations in the article. Motif has a specific meaning, and I don't see how it's weaselly at all. If we just said "this is antisemitic" there'd be complaints of POV. What we can say, because it's blindingly obvious, is that it features antisemitic motifs. <<-armon->> 11:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The question is, do you have a WP:RS for your claim? // Liftarn

Is that a serious objection? <<-armon->> 11:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if you don't have a reliable source to back it up you can't say it. That would be original research. // Liftarn

Note the cites. This is not a serious objection. <<-armon->> 09:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's rabidly antisemitic. The question is whether it illustrates "new antisemitism". Itsmejudith 11:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"Motif" has a specific meaning and labelling a drawing "capitalist whiteman" is not a motif of the anti-capitalist movement any more than it is a motif of the anti-racist movement. I'm not going to waste everyone's time by altering the caption to include "anti-racist motifs" but logically we might as well. Pictures of dollars do not an anticapitalist make either. The author of this appalling image has really succeeded hasn't he, in getting us all running around la-la-land wondering exactly what he was about. Itsmejudith 15:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really. It's abundantly clear what the protester is on about. The problem is that the editors who would like to believe the the phenomena doesn't exist, would rather not have this clear example of it. <<-armon->> 09:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Please don't attribute views to editors but find some substantive reasons why the image should be included. Itsmejudith 11:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Because its a good visual example of what the article is about. I'm not attributing any views which weren't stated explicitly. See the beginning of this discussion. <<-armon->> 14:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that claim? // Liftarn

This is just surreal. We don't need one. The placard speaks for itself and the reader can make their own judgements. As I've already pointed out to you, we don't need a cite to call a photo of a fish a fish, but it's been cited anyway. BTW, no, it's not a pipe, it's a painting of one. <<-armon->> 10:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with CJCurrie. Having the image in the lede is a perfect example of poisoning the well. It's hard to describe a debate about whether "new antisemitism" is a genuine phenomenon when you introduce the article with a photo whose caption in effect says that anti-war demonstrators engage in new antisemitism.

• Has anybody clicked through the image to see the caption on its page? "Poster held by a protester at an anti-war rally in San Francisco on February 16, 2003. We are using the image to illustrate the attitude toward Jews and Israel at this rally." (My emphasis) More well-poisoning, and OR to boot, unless we assume that readers never enlarge the images in Misplaced Pages articles. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 22:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That's actually not really a "caption" in the usual sense, but rather supporting information for the fair-use rationale. AnonMoos 15:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

But it's still WP:OR. // Liftarn

That's irrelevant and wikilawyering. Any fair-use rationale is therefore OR. <<-armon->> 09:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not. "The poster was allegedly held by someone" et.c. There is no reliable source saying the views expressed by the placard was the general attitude at the rally. // Liftarn

No one ever claimed that the views expressed in the placard were representative of the general attitude at that particular rally, as far as I'm aware. Rather, it is claimed that expressions of hatred or defamation (sometimes veiled, sometimes blatantly overt) against Jews in general are sometimes either tacitly tolerated or openly accepted as a part of various political events with a significant left-wing presence (however one may choose to define "left-wing). The Zombietime image is one conveniently-available semi-random crystal-clear concrete example for this general point. AnonMoos 09:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

So basicly it's WP:OR and/or WP:SYN packaged as an image. // Liftarn

First, let's stop pretending that this is a fresh topic: see archives. Second, as noted the image illustrates/exemplifies the phenomenon of NAS. ←Humus sapiens 11:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

No reliable source has said that image has anything to do with NAS. // Liftarn

It's a bigoted racist anti-Jewish hate poster displayed as part of, or in immediate proximity to, a predominantly left-wing demonstration -- therefore ipso facto it's an example of what is called by some the "New antisemitism", Q.E.D. AnonMoos 17:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think geographical proximity is in the NAS concept and it's still WP:SYN. // Liftarn

You're pretty handy at pulling out convenient acronyms, and demanding "proofs" of things that seem rather obvious to most other than yourself, but it doesn't seem to me that these tactics have done much to significantly clarify or resolve debates about how to improve this article. AnonMoos 07:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Anybody can manufacture "obvious" thing is they really want. It would be quite easy to "proof" that Toys "R" Us are nazis. The proof goes like this: Hitler was a nazi, Hitler liked Wagner, ergo Wagner was a nazi. Pampers used a Wagner piece in one of their commercials, ergo Pampers are nazis. Toys "R" Us sell Pampers, ergo Toys "R" Us are nazis. If you disagree with my logic you are defending nazism, ergo you are a nazi. // Liftarn

You knocking down a ridiculous strawman which you yourself created doesn't do much to significantly clarify or resolve debates about how to improve this article either, as far as I can see. AnonMoos 13:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

It isn't a strawman, but an example of how you can manufacture things out of thin air. You stating that Misplaced Pages policy can be ignored because they are just "convenient acronyms" doesn't help either. // Liftarn

If you stopped relying heavily on bureaucratic jargonese acronyms, and demanding "proofs" that B follows A in the alphabet, or 2+2=4, and instead formulated reasoned aguments addressed at reasonable adults, your comments might then have some value in significantly clarifying or resolving debates about how to improve this article... AnonMoos 16:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so you agree that we should follow Misplaced Pages policy, but you still think that you can put unsourced statements in the article. Have I understood what you are saying? // Liftarn

I can see value in including several of the images as illustrations of the discources that go on about NAS:

• Zombietime - actually example of anti-Jewish caricatures combined with anti-Israel/anti-capitalist/anti-American motifs. But it is hand-made and therefore not "official".

• Sharon eating baby - example of how opinion, even Jewish opinion can be split on the intent of the poster. Brown claims he deliberately stripped the cartoon of any Jewish symbols such as Magen Davids on the helicopters, others see it as a reference to the blood libel. I think this is a good example for the lead because it shows how contraversial the discource of NAZ is.

• Sharon-Nazi comparison - This is actually something which I, a critic of Sharon and much of what Israel does, find highly offensive. I've also seen grafitti in London of (magen David)=(Nazi swastika). Given that Israel's racial crimes are dwarfed by Saddam's attacks on the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs, Mugabe's starvation of Matabele territories, the Rwanda massacres, etc. and those don't get compared to the Nazis in cartoons, the use of the Nazi comparison is deliberately selected to be highly offensive and has a racial motive.

• The boy crying wolf - an example to illustrate the critique of NAS as an attempt to tar legitimate mainstream criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism.--Peter cohen 11:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Have any of them been described as an example of NAS or do they illustrate something that a reliable source has been described as NAS? The Zombietime poster has only been described as antisemitic (not NAS). Sharon eating baby: ditto (as far as I know). Sharon-Nazi comparison: comparing Israel with nazi Germany has been called NAS, does that include Sharon as a person as well? Btw, Saddam, France, Bush, USA and so on (Goodwin's law) has been compared with nazis. The use of nazi comparison is common. Cry wolf: true, and the only free image as well. // Liftarn

Have your demands for "proof" of the fairly obvious ever actually usefully contributed to discussion on how to improve an article? However, I do think that the shepherd cartoon is fairly interesting -- since the cartoonist's choice to depict religious sidecurls rather clearly reveals his real agenda... AnonMoos 02:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Has this discussion ended? Relata refero 09:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know -- some good points were made on both sides, but towards the end the discussion was dragged down by a series of remarks by Liftarn which did extremely little to advance constructive debate, and by the replies to Liftarn's aforesaid remarks. AnonMoos 10:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Watch your personal remarks. I suggested that the article (including image caption) should follow WP:V and WP:NOR while you seem to think they can happily be ignored if it's just in image captions. // Liftarn

I wasn't the only one who expressed frustration that your style of discussion seems to rely more heavily on bureaucratic jargonese acronyms, and demanding "proofs" that B follows A in the alphabet or 2+2=4, rather than expressing detailed reasoned aguments addressed at reasonable adults (and of course your behavior on commons:Image_talk:Gathering_of_eagles.jpg was profoundly even less impressive).

However, your proposed "alternative" image expresses Leftist intolerance towrds Right-wingers, while the main thesis which this article discusses is one of relative Leftist tolerance towards Right-wingers and Islamists in some cases, when it comes to the issues of the Middle-east and Jews -- so that the proposal that this image can meaningfully "replace" the Zombietime image is rather ludcrous. Furthemore, I'm distinctly less than impressed that this commons:Image:Nonazis2.gif image is by the very same cartoonist Latuff who chose to depict Jewish religious side-curls in a bigoted hate-mongering way in his other cartoon commons:Image:Cry-wolf.png. In my mind, Latuff has absolutely no valid credentials whatsoever to be accusing other people of racism... AnonMoos 16:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I have never made unreasonable demands for reliable sources, but when you try to sneak in your own personal views into the article with no source whatsoever then I think it's quite reasonable to point that out. Yes, I am aware of your odd and baseless views of Latuff, but as I already pointed out your own personal views is not a reliable source. // Liftarn

Dude, I have made exactly and only three edits to this article, none of which are strikingly controversial (, , ) while you have made many edits to this article which have been found to be controversial by other editors. Furthermore, my "baseless" view of commons:Image:Cry-wolf.png comes from general knowledge of which social groups wear Jewish religious side-curls, while your convoluted defense of the image seems to be based on general ignorance on this topic, supplemented by a little Google searching. AnonMoos 08:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

So your evaluation of the image is based on your own original research rather than a reliable source? // Liftarn

It's based on my pre-existing knowledge of the subject, which I didn't acquire for the purposes of this article. But by your criteria, you using Google Image Search to turn up the "bp2.blogger.com" photo could only be "Original Research". Pot, kettle, black as they say on Usenet... However, I think that the policy is intended to control article page content, not to squelch the give-and-take of discussion on talk pages (the way that you sometimes seem to try to use it). AnonMoos 09:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If the talk is about the content of the article WP:RS is a good idea rather than "Oh, I think A = W so then it's OK to put it in the article.". // Liftarn

People blathering on at length on article talk pages about their personal alternative physics theories, or personal historical conspiracy theories, is certainly severely discouraged. But in general, there is no requirement that each and every comment on an article talk page must obey all of the Misplaced Pages article content policies which you're so fond of referring to in acronymic bureaucratic jargonese form... AnonMoos 10:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't said that either (nice strawman),b ut you seem to suggest that since OR is ok on talk pages it's also OK in the article. // Liftarn

Someone has tried adding material to the Latuff article wich indicate that he is Jewish and was brought up orthodox and that he is now in a relationship with a Jewish man. The contents of his articles should be considered with this in view.--Peter cohen 12:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I really couldn't care less whether Latuff is from outer Mongolia with Djibouti-Tuvaluan ancestry -- the way he used Jewish religious side curls in commons:Image:Cry-wolf.png is still clearly inappropriate for a cartoon which claims to target Zionists as a political group, instead of Jews as a religious group. AnonMoos 15:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the image should stay.

It combines new anti-semitic and anti-zionist motifs with old ones. Did you notice the Zionist-Pigs line? See Judensau. It also shows Jews hiding behind Satan and says "no war for Jews", implying a jewish (not a zionist) consipracy causing war (this was also a nazi claim). The suggestion of Jews in league with nazis and with satan (satan is wearing a swastika and an israeli flag) is obviously insulting and one of the NAS / anti-zionism issues.

The Jew on the right has a text on him saying "counterfeit Jew" and the fire says "counterfeit Jews" while satan has "counterfeit whiteman" written on his shoulder. I assume this is an attempt by the artist to make their (racist) poster appear acceptable by claiming that the Jews are not "real Jews" (real jews presumably are the ones who agree with the artists opinions). So i think the image goes right to the heart of the issue, about how anti-israel stuff merges with antisemitism.

I can't imagine a more effective picture.

Telaviv1 14:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

To reiterate C J Currie's initial objection, it is clearly viciously antisemitic. But it is not an example of new antisemitism. Analysis of the imagery and wording shows that it is from a Black British Israelite position, an idiosyncratic and non-notable viewpoint. See previous posts. Itsmejudith 14:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

And to reiterate again. Yes, it's antisemitic (we have a source for that). Apart from that it's all WP:OR. // Liftarn

Black British Isrealite? What is that? The pic is from LA not Notting Hill!

Isn't New Antisemitism essentially old antisemitism coming from new sources (eg afro-britons, afro-americans, feminists, marxists, moslems) and dressed up as anti-Israel? so this picture fits the bill.

I don't think it is OR, the research has been done by zombietime and we have used it. its out there on the web and they have a lot of pictures. We're allowed to use other people's OR, just not do it ourself. Telaviv1 13:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

1) As far as I know Zombietime made no such conclusions about the image being an example of NAS. 2) Zombietime is strongly biased 3) Zombietime is not a reliable source. // Liftarn

How do you determine that something is too biased to be excluded from an article? Does that argument apply to pictures?

Telaviv1 13:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a guideline over at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. // Liftarn

Archive

Can some of the discussions be archived? It takes a while for this page to load... Since I only sporadically follow this article, I'm not sure what the currently relevant discussion topics are. AnonMoos 09:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

In a day or two, I'm probably going to move the top 2/3rds or so of this page (which is almost 400k in length!) to archives. If you want archiving done in a different way, please do it soon. AnonMoos 18:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Please go ahead and archive it. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 22:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Done. ←Humus sapiens 11:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I had already reduced it from almost 400k to less than 150k (archive 12) before you archived it further... AnonMoos 18:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Oops. ←Humus sapiens 20:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Section on Germany

Thegoodson added the following section to the article concerning Germany. I moved it here so we can discuss it rather than edit-war over it.

Anti-Semitism appears to be an essential part of the European cultural tradition, and in Germany, more or less conscious Jew-hatred exists by "tradition" as well. Former East Germany, and before that the Soviet Occupation Zone, never conducted a survey of anti-Semitism, and no data is available. Such surveys were, however, conducted in West Germany. In 1949, a quarter of the West German population described themselves as anti-Semites; in a 1952 survey, one-third said they were definitely anti-Semites.<ref>See Werner Bergmann and Rainer Erb, Antisemitismus in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Ergebnisse der empirischen Forschung von 1946–1989 (Opladen: Leske & Budrich, 1991) (German).</ref>

By 1980, however, the tracking of various population samples showed that anti-Semitism had decreased. Surveys conducted after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 revealed a huge gap in anti-Semitic attitudes between East and West Germany.<ref>Bernhard Prosch, Reinhard Wittenberg, and Martin Abraham, "Antisemitismus in der ehemaligen DDR. Überraschende Ergebnisse der ersten Repräsentativ-Umfrage und einer Befragung von Jugendlichen in Jena," Tribüne, No. 118 (1991), 102–120; Emnid, for the American Jewish Committee, 1991 (German).</ref> Surprisingly, East Germany appeared to be very congenial to Jews with almost no anti-Semitism. This, however, was a fallacy related to the fact that many people and even researchers make a facile distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism, despite the fact that scholars from the Centre for Research on Anti-Semitism in Berlin<ref>Zentrum für Antisemitismusforschung, Technical University (TU), Berlin. Its director, Prof. Wolfgang Benz, is a renowned scholar in this field. Prof. Walter Berg, a member of the Institute, already decades ago pointed to the similarities between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism in his research.</ref> pointed to the similarities. In addition, East Germans were used to saying what was officially required of them. And, as implied, anti-Zionism and attitudes toward Israel per se were not probed. Indeed, in subsequent surveys the gap between eastern and western Germany closed quickly.<ref>Surveys were conducted, e.g., by Emnid in 1994 (Zentralarchiv für empirische Sozialforschung, Cologne, No. 2418), Infratest Burke (1996), Forsa (1998), and Infratest Sozialforschung (2002), and published, e.g., in the weeklies Der Spiegel, Stern, and Die Woche.</ref>

File:Neonazimarch.jpg

In May 2003, the Federal Office for Protecting the Constitution published a special study on anti-Semitism and its links with rightwing and neo-Nazi groups.<ref>Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz, "Die Bedeutung des Antisemitismus im aktuellen deutschen Rechtsextremismus," 20 May 2003. See http://www.verfassungsschutz.de (German).</ref> The same institution recorded more than 1400 anti-Semitic crimes in 2001,<ref>Ibid., p. 40.</ref> confirming a steady rise including a 100 percent increase for Berlin. Anti-Israeli activities, however, such as attacks on the Israeli embassy, are not included in these reports because there is still no systematic monitoring of anti-Zionism.

In 2002, as the neoliberal FDP Party maligned Israel, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, and German Jewish leader Michel Friedman, anti-Semitism became an issue for the first time in a postwar German election campaign.

In April of that year, the Sigmund Freud Institute in Frankfurt am Main and the University of Leipzig confirmed a new height of anti-Semitism. In their joint study, 20 percent of the respondents agreed that "Jews are to blame for the major conflicts in the world," and another 26 percent shared this opinion to some extent.<ref>Elmar Brähler and Horst Eberhard Richter, "Politische Einstellungen in Deutschland. Einstellungen zu Juden, Amerikanern und Arabern," results of a representative survey conducted in spring 2002. A press conference was held at the Sigmund Freud Institute in Frankfurt am Main, 14 June 2002 (German).</ref>

In May 2002, the weekly magazine Der Spiegel published a survey in which 25 percent agreed that "what the State of Israel does to the Palestinians is no different than what the Nazis did during the Third Reich to the Jews."<ref>Der Spiegel, May 2002 (German).</ref>

As reported in 2003, studies now estimate overt anti-Semitism at around 23 percent, and covert anti-Semitism as existing among 30–40 percent of the German public.<ref>"Unser Verhältnis zu den Juden" (a survey by FORSA), Stern, No. 48 (2003) (German).</ref>

In 2002, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) in Vienna and the above-mentioned Centre for Research on Anti-Semitism conducted a study on "Manifestations of Anti-Semitism in the European Union: First Semester, 2002." In October 2003 the first version of the report was submitted to the EU, and by January 2004 the final report was in the hands of the EUMC, which kept the study - with the EU’s knowledge and approval - under lock and key. The research shows that, aside from the clear threat posed by "ordinary" right-wing anti-Semitism, Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups are also playing a crucial role. Furthermore, leftist and antiglobalization groups such as ATTAC were described as more or less anti-Semitic.<ref>The EUMC website now presents the study and some additional material, http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/index.php?fuseaction>content.dsp–cat–content&catid>1.</ref> The EUMC vaguely criticized the study, saying that "there was a problem defining anti-Semitism, the definition being too complicated," as a member of the Centre for Research on Anti-Semitism told the author. Once again, anti-Zionism was treated as distinct from anti-Semitism.

In April 2004, as the Conference on Anti-Semitism in Europe took place in Berlin, the Stephen Roth Institute of Contemporary Anti-Semitism and Racism at Tel Aviv University revealed that the countries with the highest rates of anti-Semitic incidents in the world are Germany, Austria, France, Britain, Russia, and Canada.<ref>See Stephen Roth Institute, Tel Aviv University, http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/.</ref> Compared to France or Britain, in Germany Islamic and pro-Palestinian groups are involved in only a very small percentage of anti-Semitic incidents: indigenous German anti-Semitism does not need "support" from others. Since there was never a time free of anti-Semitism, it is necessary to ask whether the current wave is really "new anti-Semitism" or centuries old anti-Semitism that has been "modernized" and adapted to the circumstances. Above all, it is a post-Auschwitz anti-Semitism. For many people, provided they are not Holocaust deniers or neo-Nazis, Auschwitz as the symbol of the Holocaust is the obstacle to expressing anti-Semitism and aversion to Jews and Israel. Hence Germans, like many other anti-Semites, use the "anti-Zionist" disguise. This enables declaring Israel "the most evil country" and "nazifying" Israel with comparisons to the Third Reich, or advocating that it vanish from the world’s stage. This, in turn, opens the door to proclaiming Jews to be evil people in general.

These manifestations of anti-Semitism in Germany are deeply linked to the German past from 1933 to 1945 and the wish to get rid of guilt or responsibility for dealing with that past. Germany’s ideological unification since 1989 has two main pillars: a strong anti-American and anti-Israeli attitude, and a new position toward the history of WWII.

Comments? — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 22:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Original research, highly tendentious and POV claims and overreliance on partisan sources. Not much that is redeemable there IMO. This article is already much too long anyhow. Editors should be looking at ways to prune it back, not add yet more material. Gatoclass 08:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It also appears to be a blatant copyvio from this website. Gatoclass 08:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yup, the whole thing is a word-for-word copyvio of the section entitled Anti-Semitism in Germany, 1945–2004 on that webpage, the only difference being that the original footnotes have been wikified. Gatoclass 08:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Size of Article

Apologies if this has been discussed before but why is this article much bigger than antisemitism? I read this article and it seems like a somewhat fringe theory and I believe we may be giving it inappropriate weight within wikipedia. Pocopocopocopoco 00:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Because it's a controversial topic, which leads to a panoply of evidence and counter-evidence and counter-counter-evidence. Whether you agree or disagree, the thesis of a certain limited opportunistic convergence between elements of the far-left, far-right, and Islamists -- who all find a common practical interest in Jew-hating -- has been taken up by a number of moderately prominent political commentators, and also occurred in a moderately famous EUMC report which was controversially withdrawn before being released. AnonMoos 02:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

There's too much space devoted to what indivdual thinkers say. The article needs editing. It may also need rearranging. Its not a fringe theory in the Jewish world.Telaviv1 13:29, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If we weed out the OR and SYN the size will certainly become more reasonable. // Liftarn

You forgot to mention WP:ABCD and WP:DEFGH.... AnonMoos 17:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

This article isn't bigger than antisemitism. On the rough measure of how many page-downs on my computer it takes to reach the end of the article. This article has 43 screenfuls to the main article's 44. And there are many more illustrations, pictures and formatted quotes and a longer further reading list bulking things out here. But, yes, some of the suggestions from others may reduce the size.--Peter cohen 15:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The main antisemitism article also makes much more extensive use of sub-articles to split off its discussion---racial antisemitism, religious antisemitism, history of antisemitism, antisemitism around the world, etc., etc., making the main article basically an overview and index into the other articles. In any case I do agree this one could be tightened up significantly; the main problem is that it's on a recent and ongoing topic, which tends to promote incremental accumulation of cruft. --Delirium 19:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

See also

I removed the part about Israel and the list of names, not sure what that was all about. Can it be worked into the article itself if its appropriate and relevant? Also removed an entry already linked above per WP:GTL. Thanks, --Tom 17:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

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