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Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

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Give us your fucking money

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about an objectionable banner for donation on a user page. As of today, the discussion continues. Reason for this update Chergles (talk)

Thread has died. For the archivebot, east.718 at 12:40, November 21, 2007 12:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Yidisheryid

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about an editor's behavior of which the editor in question has responded. As of yesterday, the discussion continues. Reason for this update Chergles (talk)

Thread has died. For the archivebot, east.718 at 12:41, November 21, 2007 12:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Deeceevoice

This very long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about a proposed banning as an editor. The editor in question has written a response. As of today, the discussion continues. Reason for this update Chergles (talk)

Thread has died. east.718 at 03:02, November 22, 2007 03:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

King James I of England

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

This discussion is about an article semi-protection or protection. As of today, the discussion continues. One of the major editors in the dispute is blocked and cannot respond. Reason for this update Chergles (talk)

I think you've put this in the wrong section? You probably want the section below - just down there <points downwards>. Carcharoth (talk)

Thread has died. east.718 at 03:01, November 22, 2007 03:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible privacy issue

First, some background. The London Gazette recently re-vamped it's website, breaking all existing references to it as they've completely changed the url construction. I've been working my way through this list User:Rich Farmbrough/Article lists/Gazette of articles which contain London Gazette urls and converting them to use {{LondonGazette}} which should make it easier to deal with such changes in future. The latest article I updated, Bez was using the Gazette to reference the fact that the article subject was at one point declared bankrupt. I have updated the reference, but it then occurred to me that since the notices (published by order of the court) list the full address of the article subject, this might be considered a privacy violation. I don't know whether this is actually a current address, and anyone could find the info via the website anyway, but obviously linking directly to it in a Misplaced Pages article gives it much wider currency, so I thought I would seek some wider input as to whether it is actually appropriate to use these references in these particular circumstances. David Underdown (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Not much we can do about that, I think. Guy (Help!) 15:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The address has been published in the London Gazette, which is officially a newspaper. Claiming that a living person has been made bankrupt is certainly a controversial claim per WP:BLP but the London Gazette is the ultimate reliable source for such matters. If it is reasonable to mention the bankruptcy (in other words, if it is significant in the life or career of the subject) then the source should be mentioned; and remember anyone reasonably familiar with the London Gazette will be able to search the full online archive and find it themselves. I can, though, see some circumstances in which the bankruptcy of a living person is not a significant matter and should be removed. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

For what its worth, a celebrity bankruptcy is generally a notable event, especially as apparently winning the Big Brother television series took care of that problem for him. • Lawrence Cohen 16:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • If a court of law has ordered the address to be made public, can it now be considered a "privacy issue"? AKRadecki 16:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• The problem will come if the person has since discharged the bankruptcy, or if osme conviction is now spent under the Rehabilitaiton Of Offenders Act. Guy (Help!) 16:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• In a roundabout way, I'm curious how we should handle otherwise fine sources that also include private information that was ordered public--would the source be no longer acceptable for us after the fact? Or before? • Lawrence Cohen 16:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• The address isn't in the article. If it becomes a privacy issue, it is an issue for the site hosting the info, not every site linking to it. Mr.Z-man 05:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Still, I smell the possibility of a very intense OTRS ticket, with issues of this nature. I think I agree with that position, but it's something we should try and handle delicately. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the input folks, I'm glad no-one thinks it a huge issue, though I'm not quite sure if Sam is advocating not putting a direct link to the Gazette in the article? David Underdown (talk) 14:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Karl Maier

After taking a look at Special:Contributions/Karl_Meier, almost all of Karl Maier's edits for the past 30 month (from October 19 to now) have basically been reverts, and most of them revert my edits.

What's more disturbing is that when Karl Maier reverts me he/she does not attempts to use the talk page to discuss reverts.

I would not have posted here, if Karl Maier had discussed the issue instead of removing my comments from his/her talk page. Clearly he/she is not interested in discussing the issue.

I request that Karl Maier be told to use talk pages to discuss reversions and changes.Bless sins (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Karl Meier has been instrumental in removing huge amounts of POV from contentious pages. He should be praised not censured or his efforts.Bakaman 20:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Karl was subject to a now expired ArbComm probation - but it is now expired. And I know of ArbComm cases where the committee has explicitly said that discussions in edit summaries while reverting is not sufficient discussion, the talk page also needs to be used. Karl is only editing about every other week, it will be very hard to actually have a conversation with him about anything. Is there anyone he is known to respect who can say "discuss, don't just revert?" GRBerry (talk) 21:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

An interesting case. 'Probation' seems to imply that the year ending August 2007 was some kind of test period; we are left with the possibility that once that test period expired the user's returned to disruptive editing. It seems that there's a lacuna in the way that decision was handed down.

Perhaps a request for clarification, asking whether once KM's period has expired, he automatically has his slate 'wiped clean', as it were, might be in order. It certainly seems to imply that the original slap on the wrist was insufficient.

(In terms of KM receiving some sympathy in terms of removing huge amounts of POV, well, he does; he might also introduce a great deal. We can't be certain one way or another unless talk page conversation is available.) Relata refero (talk) 22:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

When probation has expired, it has expired. The only way to reinstate it is by application to the Arbitration Committee, by email or by posting to the "Requests for clarification" section of the main RFAR page. Thatcher131 01:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If he is editing every other week then there really isn't a problem with his editing. He is not a drive-by vandal that detracts from the pedia. He is a knowledgeable user editing in his field of interest that is loath to take abuse lying down. There is no reason to penalize an eager editor such as him. Also I see in his recent contributions that a number of them have been discussion style edits, so bless sins contentions of "revert-warrior" and such must be invalidated when viewing this situation.Bakaman 01:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've just looked through KM's contribs since Oct 19, and without reference to the merits of your argument that the complainant has similar problems, KM appears the very definition of "drive-by reverter." Since that was what he was censured for in the original case, I think a request for clarification is in order. Relata refero (talk) 06:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that you are either being woefully dishonest or disingenuous. His contribs show numerous talk page edits and discussion. It wouldn't surprise me however, that you are dragging personal feuds into this, since you have run in to Meier before.Bakaman 06:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I encourage people to look through KM's edits for themselves. I have yet to see a positive contribution to an article, only a reversion; And the proportion of talkpage usage is painfully low, as I said; and a good amount of it is perfunctory. I certainly don't think that KM, who edits as infrequently as he does, is a major problem, but it is interesting that an ArbCom remedy appears to have had essentially no significant effect on his editing pattern. I do think that in such cases ArbCom should be notified.

Incidentally, the above user is fascinated by attempts to pin down my previous identity in a manner that would be more appropriate at Websites We Do Not Link To. He has been asked not to several times, but has continued: it is getting perilously close to harassment. Relata refero (talk) 07:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Bless sins, you really shouldn't talk; most of your contributions are basically reverts of my edits, often for unjustified or poorly justified reasons and strict censorship, even when sources say otherwise, yet you revert away anyway. Just look at your contribs. It is almost a complete revrt log of my edits. It's not like you don't make heavily POV edits, then revert when people try to neutralize them. Yahel Guhan 01:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• As above, Bless sins is a POV warrior diametrically opposed to Karl Meier and this should be taken into account when s/he makes such reports. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If Bless Sins has similar trouble with drive-by reverting, he should definitely be similarly censured. But we'll get nowhere by judging people by the quality of their opposition; so I think its irrelevant at this point.Relata refero (talk) 10:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me get to the point: some admin should, please, ask Karl Maier to engage in discussion, as opposed to simply reverting. Bakasuprman, do you honestly beleive that Karl should be "praised" for reverting without engaging in discussion (like he/she has been doing)?Bless sins (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he souuld be praised for what he is doing, because you are anything but a neutral editor. Almost everything you do on wikipedia needs to be rewritten to even barely meet the standards of NPOV. Yahel Guhan 04:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I've reminded him that he needs to also use the talk page. I make no predictions. GRBerry 22:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

USER:Arnabdas

• User:Arnabdas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

After receiving multiple NPOV warnings on his talk page regarding repeatedly making POV edits (see some examples here, here, here, here) this user has now applied warning templates to my page in complete bad faith (diffs here and here). Several other editors have noted that this was wholly improper and in bad faith (examples here and here). I have issued a third NPOV warning for continued POV-pushing, and I have instructed the editor that additional POV pushing and/or bad-faith actions will result in a formal RFC on his conduct. I thought it would be best if I kept ANI up on the situation before it goes to all that (as suggested by other editors). Thanks. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And what administrative action needs to be taken here? east.718 at 09:12, November 20, 2007

I'm not sure if/that any is needed at all. I figured it'd be wise to go ahead and mention it for a few reasons... one, I'm not an administrator and don't presume to know what actions are appropriate. Two, I recognize that I'm not infallable, and despite other editors' support (referenced above) I figured it's always wiser to ask for help or review from ANI than it is to barrel forward without seeking counsel. Finally, if my interpretation is correct and my actions thus far are proper then perhaps words from an uninvolved administrator would help quell this before it has to go to RFC. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you want WP:WQA. Relata refero (talk) 10:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I want to say I did not put the warning tag on his page in bad faith. I tried to have a discussion with him on the talk pages, but unfortunately have not heard any response from him. Because I didn't hear a response, I just removed what he said. He then proceded to issue me a 2nd tag. That is when I issued him a tag because I felt that he was POV pushing in the Politics of Bill O'Reilly page. I have officially given reason why I felt his editing of the article was wrong. Hopefully this time he will adress the issue so we can make the article a good and accurate one. Arnabdas (talk) 17:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:E104421 and VartanM

Edit warring on multiple articles

Shusha

• Reverts the article to a previous contested version with edit summary:(added a new section on cultural life.)
• reverts again with edit summary:(rv.: please, do not remove the sourced information. the new section on cultural life is informative. you deleted the cited refereces in other sections, too.)
• When I added just the sourced stuff he was adding he reverts again

Turko-Persian tradition O talkpage posts to go along with the 3 reverts on this article.

• Reverts the article claiming that the Ip address is User:Tajik
• When asked to use the talkpage to explain his edit he reverts again
• When explained that the information his adding is already there he reverts again

Now I understand that he did not violate the 3RR, but his being disruptive by adding controversial material and refusing to understand why the information was removed in the first place. We have been discussing the Shusha article for about a week now. 3 users are currently being checkusered. Most of the users editing the article are limited to 1RR per Arbcom restrictions. His actions and uncompromisable reverts are just adding fuel to the fire and are not helpful at all. --VartanM (talk) 10:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I should alsow mention that he was previously(8 months ago) indef blocked for edit warring by Dmcdevit VartanM (talk) 11:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • For the Shusha article, i provided the direct quotations into the talk page . For the Turko-Persian tradition article, the necessary explanation done in the edit summary , since the removed paragraph is not related with the article, more important, the cited references of that paragraph is not related neither with the article nor with the paragraph at all. They are totally irrelevant. These are also explained in the edit summary. On the other hand, i reverted User:Tajik, per Dmcdevit's comments: and .

Note: See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/E104421-Tajik

• VartanM, on the other hand, deleted Encyclopædia Britannica's Qajar Dynasty and Azerbaijan references . I reverted just because of the deletion of cited references as i pointed out in the edit summary. I'm not interested in his conflicts with other users, but the deletion of cited references do not seem to be an acceptable manner. In addition, i did my first edit to the article in my wiki-life today. At first, i was planning to create a new article on Sileh rug, for this reason, i checked the Shusha article, since ... Those sileh from the Caucasus may have been woven in the vicinity of Shusha (from "sileh rug", Encyclopædia Britannica, Academic Online Edition, 2007. That's it. I'm so surprised for the impolite behaviour of VartanM who even accused me of disruption after my first edit to the article. I'm wondering how he describes the deletion of cited references. He does not warned me about the previous issues, or his conflicts with other users, but just accused me of disruption here in the WP:AN/I. He could post a message to my talk page on his objections. If he would do so, i would discuss/re-consider my edits as well. That would be more simple than carring the case here. Actually, that's the procedure adviced at the top of the WP:AN/I page: "Before posting a grievance about a user here, it is advised that you take it up with them on their user talk page." Anyways, i'm ready to answer if more explanation is needed. Regards. E104421 (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Revert of POV edits by E104421 was perfectly justified. He only removed deletion of sourced info from the article and addition of controversial claims by a group of users. It is no more disruptive than all the edit warring that was done by certain users (VartanM included) to keep the POV claims in the article. Grandmaster (talk) 11:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, VartanM provides inaccurate info that editors involved in edit warring in that article are restricted by parole. Most of them are not, i.e. VartanM, Verjakette and Bassenius, and they are clearly taking advantage of that. Grandmaster (talk) 11:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this the sort of issue that should be handled at dispute resolution? What admin action is being requested here - synopsis version this time, please. Natalie (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The IP address E104421 reverted as banned user Tajik is - surprise - banned user Tajik. He's certainly been edit-warring, and will be blocked if he keeps it up, but reverting banned users doesn't count. Picaroon (t)

This report was not about the content, it was about a previously indefinatly banned user(edit warring) simultaneously edit warring on 2 different articles. Thanks anyway. VartanM (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• In the Shusha article, there is a content dispute, in the Turko-Persian relation article, there were blind reverts by Tajik and Beh-nam, since both of the users did not checked the paragraph with its cited references. If they were, they would remove that paragraph. The cited references were not related with that paragraph. That's clearly explained in the edit summary. There were no edit-war at all. VartanM tries to exaggerate issue by introducing artificial reasons and skipping the steps of my unblock and the decision of ArbCom. He's trying to overshadow his deletion of the referenced material by my blog-log. Yes, i was blocked many times because of my conflicts with Tajik, but ArbCom, at the end, closed the case without giving me any extra ban. On the other hand, after Tajik's block, i never get blocked (since 1 April 2007), since the conflicts automatically ended up with the decision of ArbCom. Humans make mistakes, but judging people all the time with their mistakes in the past is not fair. VartanM does not answers the points i suggested above but tries to change the topic to my previous conflicts with Tajik. That case (E104421-Tajik) was closed by ArbCom. Regards. E104421 (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

VartanM has been edit warring at Shusha and Khachen prior to that, pushing POV, removing sources , , , and even removing fully explained POV and dispute tags , when there is an obvious dispute on the talk page for months, without providing proper explanations or achieving consensus. Just take a look at this one revert over me, see how much sourced material User:VartanM removes () inserting POV and one source instead. Because of User:VartanM, User:MarshallBagramyan, User:Andranikpasha, User:Fedayee, User:Eupator teamed up at Khachen, Shusha, Nagorno-Karabakh, Nagorno-Karabakh War, and several other pages, it's impossible to add any reference or have any neutrality whatsoever. VartanM and Andranikpasha remove even references to Oxford scholar and expert in the topic arguing about neutrality. I hope someone will again take a neutral look into these two pages, Shusha and Khachen, because it seems like User:VartanM, a prior ArbCom participant, can violate Misplaced Pages NPOV policy, assume bad faith, become assigned as a guide to another User:Andranikpasha in doing the same without any restriction. And now, of course, VartanM feels free to report anyone even trying to edit these pages, ignoring WP:OWN. If anyone for any reason felt offended by anything I said above, please, accept my apologies. Atabek (talk) 20:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WOW you still haven't let that go. How old are those diffs? Lighten up a bit and AGF VartanM (talk) 20:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Heh, poor E104421's block log is also old, but you keep on accusing him for his past conflicts with Tajik (especially, on nomadic empires related topics). Here the content dispute is on Shusha (Cultural life of the city) article. Best. E104421 (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Why are you speaking in a third person? Are you not the E104421? VartanM (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • Sorry :) I'm not a native speaker. I tried to joke but my poor English... E104421 (talk) 21:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate you trying to bring humor into this, but this was probable cause to request a checkuser. VartanM (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

3RR

E104421 violated 3RR on Shusha.

• 1st Reversion as of 00:45, November 20, 2007
• 2nd Reversion as of 01:15, November 20, 2007
• 3rd Reversion as of 02:24, November 20, 2007
• 4th Reversion as of 12:43, November 20, 2007

4 reversions within 12 hours. VartanM (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• That's not correct. Check my contributions again: Here is my first edit to the Shusha article in my wiki-life: and its spell-check immediately after the first.

• 1st revert: 09:15, 20 November 2007
• 2nd revert: 10:24, 20 November 2007
• So-called 3rd revert: 20:43, 20 November 2007

I already wrote rv in edit summaries for my reverts. I'm wondering where you're trying to get with all these claims. Regards. E104421 (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Please, note that in my edits, i restored the deleted sourced information and cited references as can be clearly seen here . I still do not understand why VartanM ignores these cited references. Basically, a source is valid unless its falsified. Regards. E104421 (talk) 23:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The first edit you made was a revert disguised as an addition of material. Revert doesn't have to be reverting to your own version. VartanM (talk) 23:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, the edits before and in-between the above were your reverts removing referenced material added by the above mentioned user. So clearly instead of engaging in constructive discussion, you're engaged in disruptive edit warring and POV pushing as was the case at Khachen. I shall remind you that you were a party to recent ArbCom , which specifically states that:

• Editors with a national background are encouraged to edit from a Neutral Point of View, presenting the point of view they have knowledge of through their experience and culture without aggressively pushing their particular nationalist point of view by emphasizing it or minimizing or excluding other points of view.

Now please, assume good faith rather than targeting contributors and removing sourced material, and remind yourself of the associated remedy in this ArbCom case:

Thanks. Atabek (talk) 23:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, I was very active in the talkpage of the said article requesting justification for the reverts. He mostly ignored the talkpage and is yet to address the points raised. VartanM (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• I provided the quotations from Encyclopedia Britannica into the talk page , but you are just interested in the removal of sourced information . In addition, you never explained in detail why you removed the sourced material. Regards. E104421 (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This is still a content dispute, and ANI is not the appropriate place to settle content disputes. Please try one of the suggestions listed in Misplaced Pages: Dispute resolution. If you wish to report people for edit warring, please use the 3RR noticeboard. If you want to keep hashing this out, I suggest doing so on one of your talk pages, not here. Natalie (talk) 23:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear Natalie, I think this dispute will occasionally end up on this page, simply because every time User:VartanM violations are brought up, it's someone else who gets blocked or paroled, and User:VartanM continues edit warring, pushing POV and targeting any other user involved in article against his POV. Ignoring such disruptive behavior is empowering one contributor against others, and essentially violating neutrality of Misplaced Pages. VartanM participated in the most recent ArbCom, as one of the main participants, continued edit warring in articles afterwards, was warned twice, and yet as opposed to many other users with similar or lesser violations is not placed under parole but continues using his 3RR advantage and warring on the articles. Will this ever come to an end, by moving this discussion away from ANI to talk pages? Atabek (talk) 15:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Page semi-protected again

I see that WJBscribe (talk · contribs) has been edit-warring on this board with IPs (apparently over criticism of a protection action of his regarding Durova's ArbCom candidacy question page) and has semi-protected this noticeboard, shutting down all IPs from posting here. Once again, this gives the appearance of using admin tools in a dispute. Rather than continually edit-warring and protecting the page, wouldn't it better to answer the concern (if it has any basis) or simply ignore it (if it doesn't)? Videmus Omnia 15:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree strongly. Any troll who seeks to disrupt Misplaced Pages can attack the administrator who seeks to prevent disruption. We do not provide trolls a blanket excuse that they are in dispute with the administrators who seek to limit their disruption. There is no dispute between WJBscribe and this IP. - Jehochman 15:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And removing comments from an editor using IP sockpuppets to circumvent a block is not "edit-warring". That is a loaded characterization. — Satori Son 15:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't remove contributions of blocked editors, only banned editors. But I haven't seen any information to indicate this person is either, other than the unspecified softblock below. Videmus Omnia 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It is common practice to revert the sockpuppet edits of a blocked editor while the block is in effect. Otherwise, our blocks would be useless. — Satori Son 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting phrasing of the situation. Block evasion using open proxies is unacceptable. Full stop. I have pointed out two means of redress for the person in question - the unblock mailing list, or ArbCom. They have not chosen to take up either of those options, instead they are making use of open proxies to disrupt Misplaced Pages. As a consequence I have had to protect this board from IP editing for a while. My fault of course, not that of the person using IPs to evade a block and troll various pages... WjBscribe 15:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about this particular blocked user - who are they, and what type of block are they evading? Anyway, wouldn't it be better to simply answer their question on this board and end the drama, rather than lock out all of the "good" IPs who may have a need to post here? Videmus Omnia 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually few IPs post here. But if we accepted your suggestion, how many posts should we allow a blocked user to make using proxies - 1, 2, 3... ? At what point should I draw the line? You will see that I have discussed the matters with this IP on my talkpage. I have blocked 12 separate proxies used by this person today alone. Given our policies against block evasion and use of proxies - is that acceptable. We have a mailing list where a large number of admins deal with unblock requests. We have an elected Arbitration Committee where the misconduct of administrators can be investigated. I actually had some concerns about the original block here - but this is not the way for the user to have their block investigated. WjBscribe 15:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What was this person's blocked user account? Videmus Omnia 15:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

They have not revealed their account - it is not blocked. Their complaint is about the softblock of the (non-proxy) IP they presently edit from - 24.19.33.82 (talk · contribs). WjBscribe 15:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If the IP is not a proxy, why is softblocked? Vandalism? Who blocked it? Videmus Omnia 15:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Erm, you could check its block log for that information... But if you're very interested, some archived discussion of the matter can be found here. WjBscribe 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now unprotected this page and the IP's talkpage as a goodwill gesture following discussion with several involved parties. I hope to be able to discuss a mutually acceptable compromise. WjBscribe 15:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I support this. - Jehochman 16:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - WJBscribe, you should probably also unprotect Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2007/Candidate statements/Durova/Questions for the candidate. Anon editors have an equal right to ask questions, so far as I know, and by shutting that off you are likely causing damage to Durova's candidacy by calling into question the fairness/equality of the process re anon vs. registered accounts. Videmus Omnia 16:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not intend that protection to last forever. It will be lifted in due course. WjBscribe 16:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The thread you linked is about as clear as mud, but it looks to me like we generated hours of drama because of a Durova block of an IP based on another sockpuppet "sleuthing" job. It appears (at least based on this commment by Jehochman, that the block was bogus to begin with. When the person is understandably irate about being blocked, their talk page is protected and they are accused of "disruption". Soon the accusation morphs into them being a "banned" editor whose complaints must be removed rather than answered. This could all be avoided by using some freaking common sense - don't block accounts that are not damaging the encyclopedia!. The initial block was apparently another blunder resulting from this dumb sockpuppet witchhunting, and the whole situation was made infinitely worse by trying to a) shut the person up and b) cover up the whole error. Just unblock the IP and leave them alone already, unless they damage the encyclopedia. And no, complaining about dumb admin mistakes and seeking redress for them is not "damage". Videmus Omnia 16:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we can be slightly more supportive of our colleagues than that. Even if legitimately aggrieved the user has made a number of disruptive posts across Misplaced Pages and made extensive use of open proxies. They have also been harassing Durova by email. Ultimately we need something everyone can agree to as apparently the IP is unhappy with the matter simply being refered to ArbCom for review. I am attempting to find such a compromise but various actions then and since have made that pretty difficult. Lets not treat this matter as too black and white - I think some finesse is needed if a satisfactory resolution is to be reached. WjBscribe 21:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It appears that any "disruptive posts" that took place were an incredibly tenacious attempt to overturn a wrongful block (correct me if I'm wrong). The IP apparently was forced into using proxies because their unblock request was denied and their talk page protected. If e-mail to the blocking admin was the only avenue left open to them, then e-mailing that admin is not "harrassment" if the block was wrongful. You know as well as I do that referring an anon editor to the ArbCom for a block review is just a roundabout way of telling them to 'get bent' if the block was done by a longtime editor like Durova.

I see that the block has not been overturned yet and the block log still states that the person is a sock of a banned editor, despite the fact that there seems to be widespread doubt that this is the case. Perhaps Durova could explain exactly why she felt this IP is MyWikiBiz. Also, WJBscribe, you seem to be demanding on the IPs talk page that they reveal their identity - we don't do that here, people are allowed to edit anonymously if they so choose. Videmus Omnia 22:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not asking them to reveal their identity - I am pointing out that for contact between them and Durova/Jehochman to end someone is going to have know the indentity of their Misplaced Pages account. Durova has not been recieving unblock requests, she has been receiving harassment. And feeling you were wrongly blocked is not an excuse for the use of open proxies to evade the block. If everyone did that we'd have chaos.Now please back off Videmus Omnia. I have been very patient with you but frankly your involvement here isn't helping. Lets see what happens when the IP comments and we find out what terms are acceptable to them. WjBscribe 22:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The person is obviously editing with an IP because they don't want to reveal their login to Durova or Jehochman. The Wikimedia privacy policy allows them to do this, and some random admin doesn't have the right to demand they reveal their account information. You should take it to Checkuser if you believe some policy is being violated by the IP, but you, or Jehochman, or Durova, don't have any right to ask that person to divulge any details to you in order to be unblocked, when they apparently shouldn't have been blocked in the first place. Videmus Omnia 23:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Its up to them what they will or won't do. They can't ask people to avoid them if those people don't know who to avoid. Please another party in this matter is not helpful. Let them make their own case for what is or isn't acceptable to them. Look I've been working on this all day - please have faith that I understand more about the issues here than you do. This person's conduct has been quite unacceptable. They may feel aggrieved but that doesn't justify it. However a compromise is needed to end the stalemate. Please let this work itself out. Your involvement is heavy handed and is only making it less likely this situation can be resolved. WjBscribe 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WJBscribe, your efforts have hardly been the epitome of diplomacy; as a matter of fact, your main effort earlier seemed to be an attempt to shut this person up by reverting their complaints here and semi-protecting this page. You didn't unprotect the IP's talk page until that issue was raised at this noticeboard. "Heavy-handed" is a good description of your, Jehochman's, and Durova's conduct in regards to this anon user. I'd also appreciate it if you wouldn't simply revert an unblock request without an edit summary - I'm restoring that, by the way. Videmus Omnia 23:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you only see part of the puzzle. I reverted edits using open proxies per policy. Block evasion using proxies is not acceptable whatever one thinks of your block. In the meantime I discussed the matter with Jehochman and gained his agreement to my unblocking the IP if a mutual acceptable agreement could be reached. I then began discussion with the IP. Perhaps you should let those pan out before passing judgment. WjBscribe 23:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Could you point me to the policy that states edits from open proxies are to be reverted? And if Jehochman precipitated the whole confrontation by a screwup, he's not really entitled to anything anyway. Videmus Omnia 23:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Editing from open proxies is not allowed at the meta policy level. We would not be preventing that editing if we didn't revert the edits made by such proxies. WjBscribe 23:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WJBscribe, I fear your argument seeks to prove too much. Meta policy is inherited by projects that do not have corresponding local policy. Here on en.wiki we do have an overriding local policy, and editing from open proxies is not prohibited per se. What is prohibited is circumvention of blocks, by any means whatsoever. The discussion of proxies is irrelevant and distracts from the situation at issue: the user in question is acting abusively toward other users and circumventing the blocks to do so. If I may rework your statement: circumvention of blocks is not allowed, and we would not be preventing that editing if we didn't revert the edits made by block circumventing editors. Furthermore, reverting any user who's acting abusively is always justified. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and we should not build mountains of bureaucracy to climb. The fact that WP:BAN explicitly calls for reversion of banned editors does not mean other abusive editors cannot be reverted. ··coelacan 03:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A note of clarification: the static IP was so disruptive that four different administrators blocked it in the space of two days and a fifth protected the IP's talk page. I was one of the four blocking administrators, yet for some unknown reason that individual chose to single me out for retribution. This individual has been fully informed of the proper recourses. Failure to pursue legitimate options is not an excuse to circumvent policy. Responsibility for the effects of semiprotection must rest with the abuse of policy that necessitated it, not with the administrator who took action to restore order. Durova 23:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Umm, Durova, you're misrepresenting. Here is the block log. Daniel's block was a 1-second block to correct the block log following an unblock action, and Bishonen's was only a short block pending checkuser (which apparently revealed nothing). That leaves the only 'real' blocks as yours and Jehochman's. Jehochman has already said he is mistaken, and you have yet to explain why you believe this is a sock of MyWikiBiz. Would you please do so now? Videmus Omnia 23:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Please don't speak on my behalf. I said I was willing to assume good faith and accept trusted editors at face value who said that this was not who I thought it was. I am not 100% sure of the true identity of the person, nor do I know if they were posting on behalf of somebody else. I do know that they have been highly disruptive since then. - Jehochman 23:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you consider unjustified blocks as "highly disruptive"? Videmus Omnia 23:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

← http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=172708532 - 89.106.244.90 wants to sign as 24.19.33.82. % Checking TOR status for '89.106.244.90'... ACK % This is a TOR EXIT node (details below). % IP: 89.106.244.90 % Name: AFriendlyBelgianTOR % Ports: 9001 9030 % Flags: Exit Fast Guard Running Stable V2Dir Valid

No further questions, your honor. Guy (Help!) 21:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

For once and all, please make it loud and clear.

1. How many days, weeks, months we should allow to provide reliable sources for article like Operation Hush which is not even tagged as unreferenced? 2. And if anybody can remove even SD, PROD tag, then what is the use of new page patrollers? Why should we waste time in placing tags like unreferenced, notability etc? One admin just advised me to take article to AFD. But here I saw that a new user who has no contributions at all voted to 'keep' it. Why should I waste time to take to AFD where anybody can vote using sockpuppets? Thanks. sharara 16:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Being unsourced is not a reason for speedy deletion. If an article remains unsourced for a significant amount of time, and especially if cleanup / PROD tags bring no improvement, the article should be submitted to AfD. Since AfD is not a vote, the closing admin will disregard spurious contributions. Sandstein (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Note that many articles have 'external links' that are actually references, for instance Operation Hush. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 10:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the duration of 'significant amount of time'? And how would you know which article is unsourced if 'unreferenced, cleanup, PROD' tags are removed? Anybody can remove it. I can go on showing unsourced articles dating back to 2003 and even before it. Is it responsibility of new page patrollers and admin to search sources and add to the articles? Thanks.sharara 16:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ideally when someone creates an article, they would include sources. Obviously this doesn't always happen though. Any article that has no sources cited or relevant external links that verify the subject can be considered unsourced and probably should be tagged as such. If someone is removing "unsourced" or "cleanup" tags without actually addressing the problem or explaining the removal, I'd say you'd be fairly justified in adding them back. PROD is different; if someone removes it, that is it. At that point the article needs to go to Articles for Deletion if you still wish to pursue deletion. As for who's responsibility it is to source something, generally it is the creator's responsibility. Before simply nominating something for deletion though, it is always a good idea to do some due dilligence and look to see if it can be verified. If it can, contact the creator and request that they source their article, or just source it yourself. If it can't be sourced or notability can't be established, then deletion may be the correct next step.--Isotope23 17:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The question isn't so much "is it sourced" as "can it be sourced"? The article in questions appears to be on a verifiable subject. It may not be notable, and might be deleted at AFD, but it at least can be sourced (and I added a source to the article).--Isotope23 16:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Sharara, you seem to have some confusion regarding the deletion process. Just keep in mind the following:

• Please do not reinstate a prod tag after a user has removed it from an article. If you still feel an article should be deleted, use the AfD process instead.
• Please do not issue vandalism warnings to users who remove prod tags. Prod removal is an acceptable Misplaced Pages procedure, and the author who removes a prod tag is not obligated to improve the article in any way. Again, once a prod tag has been removed, if you feel the article should be deleted, use the AfD process instead.
• Please do not place db (speedy deletion) tags in article with personal motivations, such as "the author has removed a prod tag", or "this article is unreferenced", or "the subject of this article is not notable". These are not valid speedy deletion criteria. For a list of acceptable speedy deletion criteria, see WP:CSD.
• Please note that AfD debates are not votes. This is a fundamental misconception that seems to make you want to avoid AfD at all costs, thereby resorting to inappropriate use of speedy and prod. If an AfD comment is recognised as spurious (for example, because it comes from a single-purpose account), it will just be ignored by a hopefully wise admin.

Thanks! --Nehwyn (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

AfD is not a cleanup procedure. Submitting an article for deletion because it's been around with no sources is liable to engender a great deal of drama. Corvus cornix (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your question, "Is it responsibility of new page patrollers and admin to search sources and add to the articles?", is no. I might decide that the subject interests me and look for sources but on the other hand it might be so obscure that I have no idea where to begin looking for them. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 19:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks and other types of incivility on talk page

EliasAlucard (talk · contribs)
EliasAlucard has posted many personal insults, uncivil comments (including swearing), has used all-caps (yelling), and sometimes made his signatures appear as if he had a different username (making it look like someone else was posting the comment). I posted a warning about personal attacks on his talk page quite awhile ago, but it has had no effect. He also seems to reject the whole basis of Misplaced Pages, which is presentng facts supported by reliable sources. Here are just a few recent examples (although the problem goes back much further:

1. Swearing and personal insults
2. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
3. Uncivil comment
4. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
5. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
6. Signing a different name, so it looks like someone else was agreeing
7. Unjustified personal insult
8. Uncivil comments signed under a different name
9. Uncivil comment
10. Uncivil comment and all-caps yelling (Note: EliasAlucard's comment is the lower one)

There are several more examples, which can be seen by viewing EliasAlucard's edit history. Also, just to clarify, I have not noticed other editors making similar uncivil comments or personal insults towards EliasAlucard. Their comments have been based on content, not the individual.Spylab (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a content dispute which has gotten a little bit hot. There isn't much to do here, beyond giving him a brief note about civility. I'd do it, but he's been rather upset with me since I blocked him for 3RR a while back. --Haemo (talk) 19:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll give him a short note. He's skirting a bit of the civility edge, but it's nothing but a rather fervent content dispute. — Coren  19:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If he's getting this upset, disengaging for awhile might be the best idea. Natalie (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to block (i.e. "disengage") me for this. I have been trying to explain something very basic to User:Spylab for over two weeks now. I've provided several reliable sources, yet he refuses to understand what I'm saying. Frankly, I am beginning to lose my patience. It seems like Spylab is more like trying to have it his way rather than understanding reasonable arguments based on scholarly sources. Even though I've presented numerous sources, corroborating several valid points I've made, he keeps pretending like I haven't brought any sources to the talk page and completely ignores these sources. This is very disingenuous of the guy. He's acting like a defiant child when he's refusing to accept the sources, rather than a professional editor. As for my signture, I wasn't trying to fool anyone. Anyone can see that it's me since it has the same style and everything. And I've even changed my signature on my own talk page. Don't run to WP:ANI every single time you can't have it your way on the talk pages. Christ man, what is this, the third or forth time you've been here complaining about me? You are abusing the purpose of WP:ANI, it is not for content disputes. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 20:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, for the record, Natalie is a very beautiful name ;) — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 20:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't suggesting a block - I was merely suggesting that you step away from whatever is frustrating you so much and do something else for a time. I've found that it's hard to make a good point when angry. Natalie (talk) 20:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• If anyone's trying to get his own way it is EliasAlucard. As the quotes above show, he has been using bullying tactics in his campaign to promote original research and to to keep well-referenced material off of Misplaced Pages. He refuses to understand that on Misplaced Pages, his personal opinions do not trump the views of multiple reliable sources. Also, as you can see above, it is very confusing to the average Misplaced Pages reader when someone signs his comments with a different name; making it appear as if a different person wrote those comments.Spylab (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Morningside Clio (talk · contribs)

This user is involved in continuous heavy POV pushing on certain articles related to Israeli Palestinians, most notably Joseph Massad, Nadia Abu El Haj and Elias Chacour.

He uses weasel words and substantiation of biased statements, usually inserting them into Controversy sections of articles. In Joseph Massad for example, he uses direct quotes to substantiate claims of controversy, quoting blogs that call Massad "a bigoted nutcase" and "crackpot". These have been removed earlier but the user reinserts them shortly thereafter. The references provided to substantiate these quotes are mostly from sources that are not neutral on the Israel-Palestine issue (eg. here). References inserted by this user are never formatted properly, the user simply inserts the text of the link into the article. At times, such as revision 172643890 on Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society, these links are not accurate even if properly formatted. In addition, the Joseph Massad article is already tagged as having too many quotes for an encyclopedic article yet this user adds more quotes on most of his edits.

Another instance of what can be classified as POV is his repeated removal of a publication of the American pro-Israel neoconservative think tank Middle East Forum being placed after a link to the Middle East Quarterly in the Massad article, calling it inappropriate and highly political in the respective edit summaries. Yet, in Nadia Abu El Haj, after the name of Elia Zuriek, he inserts a sociologist who advocated boycotting all Israeli universities.

Trying to stay objective and neutral, I am of the opinion that his contributions are intended to promote a point of view rather that improve a particular Misplaced Pages article. A quick look at the formating and the aesthetic value of Joseph Massad, especially the Controversial views section, can attest to the disregard towards Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style in favour of expressing opinion. While the user is not guilty of explicit vandalism, it is becoming harder for other editors to contribute to any of the previously mentioned articles without getting involved in an edit/revert war with Morningside Clio.

P.S. I do realize the irony of criticizing somebody for not properly formating reference links in the same sentence in which I did not know how to link to a specific past revision. Thanks for understanding. SWik78 (talk) 18:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I left some notes in his talk page. Hopefully he will learn to be a useful contributor. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

So have I. Relata refero (talk) 07:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

PalestineRemembered feels muzzled

Folks - back in August this year, the now discredited CSN board required me to find a mentor (I'd finally been trapped into the only offensive edit it's generally agreed I've ever made). I have such a mentor - the harassment of him started within 2 days, but he's now lasted a month without being driven off the way the three previous mentors were. (Details available if you've missed them). We've worked together very well (the only open issue is recent and nothing to do with Palestine).

However, there is someone else on my case insisting that he's my mentor (as well? instead?) and attempting to tell me there is still something wrong with my edits. His demand of me runs like this: "PR, as your mentor, I've been a little concerned about your recent editing. I see a lot of edit warring in your contributions (here's just a few: ) and many of your edits seem to be pushing your own point of view regarding Ariel Sharon. Can I please remind you that edits must be neutral point of view, and revert warring to push your point of view is clearly desruptive."

If this editor is finding something problematical, then he's going an odd way about drawing anyones attention to it, because each of the actions of mine he's challenged is handily covered by my summaries. I'd be the first edit-warrior in history to clarify everything carefully in both Talk and summary - and I don't edit-war anyway. As one of my mentor-harassers noted in the interesting tirades I documented here: "... PR has not made any "breaches of 2RR" (perhaps one)".

So what is going on with this interesting collection of interesting accusations - or is this just the final move to muzzle me?

I should add that it's possible I've crossed some red-line, perhaps it's wrong of me to quote Arial Sharon as if he were a notorious punisher of civilian populations (I've not actually said as much about him ever, but you know what I mean). Perhaps Misplaced Pages is simply not allowed to document what is/was happening to the Palestinians and I'll have to begrudgingly accept it. Perhaps this single purpose account was always doomed to be muzzled, and I should be grateful to the community for allowing me to make just a few corrections and improvements to articles. PR 19:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The CSN board was not discredited. Its function was re-merged back to this board. Corvus cornix (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't look like you mentioned this to Ryan at all, unless it was through email. Perhaps the best first step would be to talk to him about the situation. No offense, but it seems like you are overreacting to this. Another editor saw something problematic in your edits, so they brought it to your attention, which is the preferred first step in this community. If you disagree, open a dialogue with him and discuss your disagreement. If you disagree with him as to whether or not he is your mentor, discuss that issue with him first. Ryan's a reasonable guy - I'm sure this is a misunderstanding at most. Natalie (talk) 19:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec)I'll give you a piece of advice. The purpose of mentorship is to pair you up with one or more experienced editors who understand how to edit here responsibly. The expectation is that you will talk things over with them, get feedback from them, and learn from them. Unless there is significant non-transparent and off-wiki communication, coming here was not a great idea, especially not as your first contribution after receiving a piece of feedback. As Ryan has previously told you "I would just check your edits from time to time and make sure there isn't any disruption from you, and like wise, you aren't bein bullied by other editors". The appropriate reaction to a comment from him is to talk it over with Ryan. Please go do that. GRBerry 19:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi PR, I wish you'd attempted to discuss this with me first rather than take this to the admin board. My concern with the diffs I cited was quite simple, I believe that you were edit warring to put your own personal view across, you don't have to break 3RR to revert war and many of your reverts have taken articles back to your own personal point of view. Whilst I see a lot of talk page discussion, I don't always see you using the consensus on the talk pages when applying your edits. As your mentor, it's my job to steer you in the right direction and if there are legitimate concerns about your editing, to make you aware of them. I'm more than happy to dicuss your editing with you, and why I said what I said - this just isn't the most productive place for that discussion to occur however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Postlethwaite (talk • contribs) 19:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

His issue seems to be that his understanding is that someone else is his mentor, and he is taking offense at you saying you are. Any chance of a clarification on where he was assigned a mentor, who he thinks is his mentor, etc?—Random832 14:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ryan politely took you aside, suggested that you need to calm down and edit in a manner that does not push your POV and did it in the relative privacy of your talk page. He's acted as a mentor should, instructing you and trying to get you to learn to edit in a way that follows the guidelines and policies of Misplaced Pages. There is no problem here, beyond the thinly veiled attempt to slur Ryan's reputation, sometimes we all need a little muzzling when our POV takes over our reason. I look forward to the day when you "graduate" from mentorship, but based on this outburst, I don't think it is any time soon. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 05:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

PR again - I'm used to laughable allegations against my edits (which are usually good) and my style (which may be irritating, but cannot be all that problematical). But this case (the most glaring yet seen) is about top-down interference in a "Content Dispute", as if some kind of red-line has been crossed.

Do you want details? I promise you, the inclusion of this paragraph is only objectionable to died-in-the-wool defenders of Israel. Ariel Sharon really did threaten to hit and hurt civilians - Israeli-supporting RSs tell us he carried out his threats with a massive military operation (UN says 497 Palestinians killed), along with scandalising, wanton other destruction of the whole structure of a civil society. It's pretty shocking such words are removed with a claim that they're a "bogus quote". That's denial of quite a high order. PR 10:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised that PalestineRemembered claims that, someone else insisting that he's my mentor" because it was quite clear in the last discussion on AN that the community supports Ryan's mentorship for him. In fact, PR was about to be banned from Palestine/Israel related topics, if not indef blocked, but was given the !choice between being community banned or taking up mentorship as a last chance . Since then he has continued editing in the exact same problematic way - for example, he repeatedly claims that his "mentors are under attack" (though he's been told to stop doing this this many times) and soapboxing about "defenders of Israel love/hate to..." in ways very similar to his previous "commentary" about Zionists (e.g. "the Zionist ethnic cleansers", "intentions of murderous racism" ), and basically edit-warring in extreme POV that doesn't conform with either WP:V or WP:NPOV. Now, when his mentor finally (and quite mildly) points out issues with his editing, he suddenly decides to reject his community appointed mentor. I suggest that User:Avi, is correct, that his behavior "leads me to believe that mentorship may no longer be capable of serving its intended function."

I suggest a topical ban until such time as a PR commits to accepting the mentorship of a non-partisan mentor (and that would rule out Kendrick7, who shares his POV, which is why PR was so eager to seek him out as a mentor in the first place). Jaakobou 16:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou, I suggest you stop distorting things and interjecting yourself here - you aren't helping. We already know that PR did not seek Kendrick as a mentor, Kendrick volunteered. We already know that Ryan is a mentor. Let the mentors mentor and stop arguing for bans at every opportunity. Your continual interjections are themselves disruptive, and if you don't start attempting to work with PR I will block you on that basis. GRBerry 16:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

GRBerry, i'm not distorting anything. i feel you have been assuming a bit too much good faith for PR for a bit of time now.

p.s. i find your threat here most concerning - you can request me to take a step back, but bullying me away from commenting, considering PR has been harassing articles i've been involved in (drive by reverts, soapbox, calling me a war criminal), seems like you're saying i can't even give my 2 cents on how this mentorship process is going... nowhere slowly. Jaakobou 20:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

As a sometime viewer of these threads, my comment is that until Jaakobou is restricted from interaction with PR or his mentors this disruption will continue. Are we serious about an encyclopedia? or are we interested in certian points of view being highlighted on certain subjects? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Rocksanddirt, so you're saying stuff like Hated Google Test, repeated attempts to portray Israelis/Zionists as mass killers and false edit summaries are all my fault? ... and i thought this is an encyclopedia rather than a WP:SOAP WP:BATTLEGROUND. Jaakobou 20:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou, orany other concerned editor, should be allowed to civilly and occasionally discuss PR's edits with the mentors - unless/until the mentor(s) ask them to go away because of their own behavior. At this time, in Jaakobou's case, it would be better if those discussions were separate from the mentor's discussions with PR. Jaakobou, or any other concerned editor, should expect that by doing so he is also asking the mentor to review his own related editing. Most of the really problematic disputes at Misplaced Pages involve poor conduct on all parties, so reviewing the behaviour of all parties is necessary. GRBerry 19:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Off-wiki police involvement?

Does this require it? Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 21:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No, this is relatively minor (if blockable) vandalism activity. I'm going to go do a short block on the IP and remind them not to do that again... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Some IP from Michigan. Best reverted and ignored. Kids stuff (one hopes) Pedro :  Chat  21:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with George, I don't see why we'd need to call the police; giving the vandal the attention they want is never a good idea. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I do not think the kind of attention the vandal wants is the cops knocking on his door to talk to his parents about death threats. We should make it abudantly clear at all times that threatening violence or engaging in intimidation using Misplaced Pages is more than a blockable offense: it is a crime. If it is not a threat of violence against someone else, but a suicide threat, same thing: this is not acceptable at Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, and authorities should be notified. I have notified Mike Godwin and Sue Gardner with the recommendation that the authorities be notified.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Talked briefly with the big guy over email; he's aware of it, and has told the people who need to know. JDoorjam JDiscourse 21:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I can see Jimbo's point, in this day an age of people being aware of Misplaced Pages the publicity element must be considered. But we need to balance this against giving too much weight to petty vandalism and sensationalising it. If this thread is anything to show to the media, then at least it evidences a community who responds quickly, firmly and calmly to the darkest elements of human nature, (who use abuse of this work) and that we can quickly nullify it. Pedro :  Chat  21:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I can see the upside in that a headline "Misplaced Pages vandal rapped for wasting police time" might deter other pranksters; OTOH, would the media see it like that? It seems some are looking for a big stick with which to beat us and are seeking any excuse to NOT speak softly in the process. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok. My read was that this was sufficiently non-credible to worry about, but if Jimmy wants to go to the authorities that works too. Nobody should ever be afraid of reporting anything that they think in their judgement is a valid or credible threat of some sort, here or to authorities. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow. The discussion here reflects my own internal debate. Better safe than sorry. What persuaded me to report was the mental image of the newspaper article headlines prominently displaying my username as the RCPatroller that reverted, warned, and went no further. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 22:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I think you were right to bring it here. We had a similar incident only recently. Forget your personal reputation as long as you act within policy here, which is WP:SUICIDE, although WP:ATTACK and WP:HOAX spring to mind. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Guys. Dlohcierekim was right, Jimmy endorsed, problem is moved over to the foundation. Best to move on. The community and individual editors have acted exactly as it/they should have done, and there's no need to expand this thread. Pedro :  Chat  22:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's my scary/silly walk through that park; to my knowledge, no one ever did anything and nothing ever came of it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess I disagree that this is over with. For one, WP:SUICIDE is not policy, it is simply an essay. I for one have no clear answer for cases like this going forward. Send them all to the Foundation? If that's the answer, fine by me. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, my attitude would be different if we had a set procedure for dealing with this sort of thing. Personally, I think it's sensationalizing it, but if we should be getting the Foundation involved, I'd be all for it if that's the first step. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Assuming the Foundation functions 24/7, fine. Otherwise? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Can the foundation therefore provide a set process? (rhetorical question) It's tricky, per my initial comment, as there's too much of a WP:DFTT issue as well. Which is why I think this thread should be ended, in light of possible media interest, and we can discuss a process if needed to deal with particularly difficult issues involving death threats (to one's self or others). We are a responsible community and I believe this individual case has proved as such. If we need more defined guidance or process for the future let us do as we should, and gain consensus alongside foundation needs and requirements. But let's not do it here right now. Pedro :  Chat  22:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have dropped a note to Jimbo raising this very point. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I asked people from the Foundation (Sandra Ordonez) before about situations like this. Currently the process is basically like what happened here. Contact User:Mike Godwin or User:Cary Bass about it. If they are not available and someone deems it urgent, we may contact the authorities on our own initiative. Mr.Z-man 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• At the risk of getting further media attention and possible in-depth scrutiny, is it not better to discuss these things off-wiki rather than on-wiki due to the sensitivity of the matter?? This kind of thing we wouldn't want to see in the Midweek Visiter, Liverpool Echo or any other newspaper, so let's try and handle this off-wiki to avoid further repercussions that could happen if it's further discussed on-wiki. Remember the raucous that the User:PatPeter controversy caused?? - although it didn't get discussed in the press, it did get discussion off-wiki and had real-world consequences.

I hope that we can deal with this in the proper manner, and whether it is a troll or not is not important right now. What is important, is how we deal with it, and trying to avoid causing harm to the project. --Solumeiras 23:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

At the the risk of extending this thread beyond its natural longevity, is it not preferable that these things were discussed openly so that the media can not therefore accuse Misplaced Pages of acting behind closed doors? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair point, Rodhullandemu. However, this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation - and it's a tough one to decide what to do. We need a community policy for things like this, and consensus is needed for such a policy. My 0.02 cents. --Solumeiras 23:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand the tendency of the media not so much as to print lies but invent the truth, but in this type of case I would rather WP was portrayed as acting responsibly, and having its policy-making process open to scrutiny. In this way we are seen to be both accessible and accountable to ourselves and others, without heading down the slippery road of plausible deniability, This is why I have raised the matter with Jimbo. What will result there is moot, but at least now the issue is live. And I hope whatever solution ensues, it will be as a result of consensus and fully supported by, and accessible to, the WP community. (PS I am not running for office anywhere) --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that we have a community consensus here. If you think it's credible, report it (here, to police, etc). With suicidal threats, we have a community essay WP:SUICIDE (non-policy per se, but documenting what's been done and why). With assault / death threats, we don't, but everyone's done similar things if it was seen as credible. I think reasonable people may disagree on what's credible, but I for one won't complain for anyone who reports something that was in the grey area. Police generally prefer to be told and determine it's not a problem, than find out the hard way that it was and that people blew it off.

I also asked Jimbo to clarify where he would like to see the line drawn. We can practically put it anywhere, but it would be good if it were well known and consistent. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the newbie question, but how much power does Jimbo have to set policy? In reference to threats, my opinion is that in most cases it's best to simply block the person. Threats are usually made when someone doesn't have the ability or willingness to actually carry them out; the threat is all they can do. If someone is actually planning on doing something, they won't make a threat beforehand, because that would ruin the element of surprise. Notice that Osama bin Laden didn't make threats before 9/11, but when he became unable to carry out plots, then he started making threats. And when was the last time someone actually carried out a bomb threat on a school? Sarsaparilla (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

One example: William Freund on Wrong Planet. It only takes one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Osama Bin Laden is a bad example and your reasoning does not match the reality of people who make threats. Thanks, SqueakBox 03:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I would think that Misplaced Pages would be a particularly imprudent place for one to lodge serious threats, as they are permanently preserved and potentially IP-traceable. Although as anyone who has watched Jay Leno knows, there are a lot of dumb criminals. Sarsaparilla (talk) 03:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

To answer your first question, although Jimbo no longer officially sets policy, he holds a massive amount of political capital and still makes de facto accepted unilateral decisions from time to time. east.718 at 03:15, November 22, 2007

User:Funeral

This user has engaged in an edit war on Judas Priest, Megadeth and other pages. I have warned the user, though the user erased the comment, but the user has continued. Both of these pages originally had line breaks between genres in the music infobox and more recently some people have tried to change it to comma breaks. They had no valid reason but to cite the music infobox template, but the user has been warned that the issue has not been decided and is currently taking place at:Template talk:Infobox Musical artist#Standardizing genre delimiters. I have told him and other that if it is not broken then there is no reason to fix it but this user and others have persisted. Navnløs (talk) 23:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The editor who raised this incident was recently blocked for a related 3RR violation, and has violated again on Megadeth today. I have blocked them for 48 hours. The editor that this incident was raised about, and who seems to have a contribution history outside of these edit wars, has been given a 3RR warning. A substantial amount of edit warring has been taking place regarding a trivial formatting item. TigerShark (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Not resolved. I would guess that Funeral is now employing a sock or meatputtet to continue editing past 3RR. Would require a check user to be sure, though. --ElKevbo (talk) 03:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead with an rfcu if you want, I'm not using socks. And who am I supposed to be a sockpuppet of? Funeral 16:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Without doubt there is an ongoing edit war involving numerous user accounts and IPs on a number of articles with reverts related to the use of commas or linebreaks, and that issue is certainly not resolved. In this case however, without good evidence of sockpuppetry I am prepared to AGF with regard to User:Funeral. If there is good evidence (of sockpuppetry by Funeral or other sockpuppetry relating to these edit wars) I would certainly encourage raising a request at RFCU, but that aside would suggest that we mark this as resolved again. I have done so, but of course feel free to re-open. Cheers TigerShark (talk) 00:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm certain Deathbringer from the Sky (talk · contribs) is Navlos using a sock, I'll make an RFCU soon, unless someone else does before I can get the time to do it. This user becomes active when Navlos is blocked, making similar edits with similar edit summaries. I've suspected it before. Funeral 00:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

David Howell (chess player)

Somebody with a username bearing resemblance to David Howell (chess player)'s father seems intent on continually removing the ban David Howell received from all Irish Chess Union events. They do not respond to any attempts to contact them. They do not edit any other articles. What to do?--ZincBelief (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I blocked him indefinitely as a disruptive single-purpose account. Feel free to criticize if you think the block is bad. -Jéské 00:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO You cannot block indefinitely over an edit disagreement and a couple of deletions of a nonnotable piece. Unblocked.

Are we going to add all traffic violations by public persons and all red cards to hockey players in wikipedia? Isn't it too cruel to add this info about a teenager into wikipedia to sit there forever? I failed to find any info about the reason of the ban besides the official notice. Therefore I doubt that this ban merits to be stored in an encyclopedia forever. `'Míkka>t 00:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Had he at least discussed why he was doing it, I wouldn't have blocked. However, he has not discussed anything. It's alright; I understand the unblock. -Jéské 01:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand the block as well. But a revert once or a month is hardly a burden for wikipedia. There is no reason to alienate a potential wikipedia contributor (he already knows how to delete, may be he will learn how to add :-) `'Míkka>t 01:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The unblock was inappropriate without discussion here first. Corvus cornix_talk 03:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Mikkalai, you should have discussed the block before overruling blatantly. GlassCobra 05:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I support the unblock. The account had made 5 contributions over a period of just over a month. All the contributions were to one article, but that doesn't make it a single-purpose account. Take a look at the first 5 edits most accounts make and see if that makes them a single-purpose account under this definition. The point is that for any account like this, there is potential for the user to reform, to learn, and to expand into other areas. The immediate jump to indefinite block was not appropriate here. Please, try shorter blocks first and trust later admins to impose longer blocks if the behaviour continues. Carcharoth (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Having reviewed this, I believe the block was inappropriate, and the unblock was correct but poorly done due to lack of prior . The account was removing negative material from a BLP. We as editors are supposed to be especially sensitive to such edits, almost to the point of operating under the assumption that it is the subject themself until proven otherwise. They clearly didn't know what they were doing, and another attempt to use the user's talk page (or even trying "email this user" on the remote chance that it would work) would have been better than blocking, especially indefinitely. GRBerry 04:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Nothing but spam by 68.36.126.50

Hello, 68.36.126.50 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has made around 20 edits since September, every one of them spam. He waits for a few days to evade his warnings, I would like to suggest a block, but I want someone else to provide an opinion. Thanks. 05:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocked, with a note asking them to read and respond on their talk page. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

User:68.83.73.119

I have blocked this IP address for 1 week for repeatedly introducing unverified information into biographies of living people. This appears to be a static IP, as the edit pattern stretches back over a year. If this user resumes their editing pattern after the block ends, we may need to file an RfC.

Let me know if there are any concerns about this block. Cheers, Caknuck (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A full week might be a bit heavy for the first block (open to other opinions), but given their behavior and repeatedly ignoring warnings over time, I'd agree some administrative action was apparently in order. – Luna Santin (talk) 08:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Continued reversions by known sockpuppeteer

User:131.216.41.16 was previously confirmed as having used multiple accounts to contravene 3RR, including User:Bremskraft, User:IronAngelAlice, and User:Justine4all (see Checkuser request for User:IronAngelAlice; Archive 280, "Possible Sock Puppet"; Archive 304, "Confirmed sockpuppetry by User:IronAngelAlice). User:131.216.41.16 has since returned to making the same type of edits as before, violating 3RR once, and coming close to violating 3RR another time:

• David Reardon: Reverted the same change to the introduction four times against two separate editors (User:LCP and User:Strider12) within a period of 24 hours.

• Post-abortion syndrome: Inserted the same off-topic, editorialistic comment ("Abortion is illegal in Spain") 3 times in a period of slightly over 24 hours.

I also suspect that User:70.173.47.6 is the same user due to their history of having made edits to the same narrow range of articles as 131.216.41.16's other accounts (including Harry Reid. Jon Porter, Feminazi, Post-abortion syndrome, and David Reardon). 70.173.47.6 also once signed a reply as Bremskraft and has recently replied to comments directed at 131.216.41.16. -Severa (!!!) 08:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no 3RR violation. The David Reardon links occur over a period of more than 24 hours. The user is engaged in talk page discussion, while one of the reverters, LCP, is not. All three users will be cautioned to slow down, but strictly there is no policy violation and I am averse to blocking for not-yet-3RR while the user is taking it to the talk page. As for the Spain mention, I can see how it's on-topic. You haven't taken the discussion to the user's talk page, so it's a bit premature to complain about it here.

It would be nice if you noted, when you implied ongoing sockpuppetry, that (as noted in archive 325) this user is not banned and is not evading blocks. The IronAngelAlice account's block has expired and the user is welcome to edit. They have access to two IPs (probably home and work), but I don't see the IPs being used to circumvent policy. ··coelacan 15:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Johnny Sutton and Ignacio Ramos edit war

EliminatorJR has protected the pages. Caknuck (talk) 14:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

If someone would be nice enough to page protect both of these pages, as both are involved in ongoing edit wars involving the same parties. Thanks Brimba (talk) 14:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

You should take that to Requests for page protection. -Yamanbaiia (talk) 14:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please do that in future, I have protected both pages for a week, though, in an attempt to calm down the edit-warring, sockpuppetry and incivility. ELIMINATORJR 14:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks from User:Blackworm

After I left a note to remind User:Blackworm of WP:NPA and WP:AGF, he responded with more personal attacks, accusing me of "malice", "outright lying, insincere rationalization, or pathological denial", "doublethink", "fractured logic and transparent rationalization". Most recently, he claims that I am "completely intellectually ill-equipped to discuss this subject in logical and rational terms".

I am, quite simply, stunned that anybody would consider this appropriate behaviour. I'd be grateful if an uninvolved admin would intervene. Please see User talk:Blackworm#NPA. Jakew (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you guys should both just avoid one another for a while; that might be better than chiding him over something I'm sure he's aware of. --Haemo (talk) 20:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I neglected to provide diffs for the above. In reverse chronological order, these are , , and . Jakew (talk) 22:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Henry Pollack

I'd like some other admin to take a look at a situation... I've got prior ties to the situation and am reluctant to act further because I can be accused of bias.

There is a revert war occurring at Henry Pollack over the inclusion of a chunk of text that details a conviction he had for health care fraud. Said text has two sources, one of them being the FBI and the other being an archived press release from the US attorney. We have an anon IP (74.229.15.76) who is removing it and myself and another user (Callelinea) who is restoring it. Now I see on the anon IP page this edit where the subject of the page is requesting that the page be removed completely "or I will sue Misplaced Pages and Callelinea who is using this site for defamation of character and no other reason". Said legal threat was quickly removed but just the same...

The conflict of interest in this case is that at one point I had adopted Callelinea as a user. Note that I withdrew the adoption some time later after I felt he wasn't following some advice I had given him.

Can I get a neutral set of eyes to look at the situation? Tabercil (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I blocked the IP for 48 hours for making legal threats. I am well aware that he's likely on a dynamic ip address but perhaps this will send a string message. Obviously indef will not work. I am also leaving a note there about OTRS. JodyB _talk 16:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, string 'em up! It's the only language they understand.--Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 18:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Though I think this'll require some monitoring for a while... see this edit which I pulled out on pure WP:BLP grounds, with a warning for the IP that left it (probably the same person behind the IP as the first one I listed)... Tabercil (talk) 23:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Strong personal attack by Nergaal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User:Nergaal thinks my POV is "a POV formed after a long brainwash by soviet propaganda" and that I have a "severe impedement of rational thougt(sic!) process" diff. Is this kind of language accepted on wikipedia?Anonimu (talk) 15:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The user has been warned for personal attacks. Hopefully that will be the end of it. ··coelacan 16:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection/Protected titles requests

I have created this fork of Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection so that admins can specifically deal with protected titles.

It will hopefully take the load off WP:RFPP and ensure that requests are split between the two.

Feel free to fix it as much as you want or need; it's just been created! Thanks, --Solumeiras 18:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• Just as a side note, I've found a lot of people rush to this solution when really it's just one person recreating the page over and over... it seems more practical to just block the person who's recreating the page. If they actually do evade the block to recreate the page, and they rarely care that much... then you should deny recreation of the page. --W.marsh 20:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
• If this process does survive, I have created a clearer redirect. I would have done something witty such as WP:SALTSHAKER but I think WP:REQSALT suffices. To all Americans, have a great holiday weekend. To everyone else around the world, well, good luck getting ahold of any American based business tomorrow :) spryde | talk 21:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
• I am not sure this is necessary. Protected titles requests make up a tiny fraction of the total traffic at WP:RFPP and to me it doesn't seem helpful to split things up onto multiple pages when so far one page is proving more than sufficient. I would like to speedy this with the minimum amount of fuss. – Steel 21:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I concur. Not another page for admins' watchlists please. Most salting is done without any request, and the tiny proportion that is requested can be handled at RFPP where it represents a tiny proportion. There will be no fuss from me if it is deleted. -- zzuuzz 21:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed. I see little-to-no requests to antigenesis the area compared to Featured-Article-of-the-Day prot requests (I've asked for a new RFPP template tag specifically for those at Template talk:RFPP). -Jéské 23:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Several hours on ANI with less than ringing endorsement is good enough for me. Consider it gone. – Steel 23:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

DRV also processes some requests for unsalting. Admittedly, this is usually in the form of declining a request for undeletion of a salted page while permitting recreation. I'll defer to the WP:RFPP regulars as to whether this is needed. GRBerry 22:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree with the creation of this board; it's just another place for me to watch. There's already a small, dedicated group of admins who work RFPP to the point where there is almost never a backlog. east.718 at 02:44, November 22, 2007

Davkal socks to evade ban

User:Davkal has created two socks: User:Jamon y cheso and User:LutherFlint to evade his ban. It is clear, first of all, that these to accounts are being operated by the same puppeteer from this difference where Luther Flint accidentally responds to accusations at Jamon y cheso before realizing his error and reverting it. Secondly, Luther flint arrived at the very time Davkal was banned and has adopted the confrontational and disruptive style of Davkal at precisely the same articles. Recommend banning these two socks. I've cross-posted this to allegations of sockpuppetry as well. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like LutherFlint is indeed a sockpuppet of Jamon y cheso, but there isn't enough evidence to prove that these are both Davkal socks--Phoenix-wiki  20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, they're now acting in consort to edit Electronic voice phenomenon. I don't have the time right now to file a checkuser, but the evidence that these two are Davkal from the timing of Luther Flint's arrival to his use of the rather strange term "armchair" in denigration of skepticism is overwhelming. I know you haven't been involved in editing these things, but there is no question that this is the same person come back to haunt us again (excuse the pun). ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked Jamon y cheso as an obvious sock of Davkal. LutherFlint isn't quite as clear on the surface, but I haven't dug into his contribs that closely. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• Passes the duck test - those articles are the last Davkal edited before his ban and have been a focus of obsessive interest with him since forever. Raymond Arritt blocked Jamon y chaso, I blocked LutherFlint; we both came to the same conclusion separately here, not having discussed it at all.

• Also per CheckUser:
• Missing Presumed Hungry (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Ice Cream for Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• This one troubles me deeply, as it takes in vain the work of one of my very favorite musicians. Raymond Arritt (talk) 21:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• Vyacheslav Grinko (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Reverend Dunkel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GregoryPeckery (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ElectricSoup (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SmallGrey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Longsman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dinnaeken (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Guy (Help!) 20:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

One of these socks started an ugly thread accusing James Randi of pedophilia. This may need deletion and/or oversight. Skinwalker (talk) 22:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Drive by redirects

One of the pages on my watchlist today was myseriously redirected by TTN so I checked out what he's been doing . His entire activity on Misplaced Pages appears to be adding or merging articles in a fashion I can only describe by as "drive by redirection". I understand his desire to enforce FICT, but honestly, could someone please step up and ask him to discuss such bold actions especially when it occurs on so many pages at a time? This is very suspicious, but probably good intentioned. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 20:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't see any problem with his boldness unless people object to it, and he refuses to enter into a discussion. WP:BRD is a good process. --Haemo (talk) 20:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, there has been. See for example: Frank West (Dead Rising), the user's talk page, Hanzo Hattori's talk page where TTN has gone far beyond uncivil and possibly driven off another editor. I'm going to my wikiprojects and warning them to watch out for this behaviour. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

And based on where I have seen him reverted, he's ignored any discussion and reverted back to a redirect. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 21:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is apparently an arbitration case on this: WP:RFAr#Episode_and_character_articles --W.marsh 20:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, good. Could we maybe have a cease fire called in the meantime while the case is underway? Arbcom cases take a long time and by the time it is over, the damage may be too severe to overturn. I'm sorry, he's suggested we merge Sailor Jupiter, Sailor Mercury and the other GOOD ARTICLE level sailor senshi articles into a list.... I'm a bit more than concerned here. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 21:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The case should open soon... you can ask for an injunction once that happens, which stop with the redirects. --W.marsh 21:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

BetacommandBot blocked yet again

I've blocked BetacommandBot, specifically for this edit, and more generally, because Betacommand isn't taking responsibility for making his bot work properly: .

There is an obvious fix for the reported problem, but please don't implement it unless Betacommand requests it. I'm hoping he'll realize that he needs to take responsibility for his bot's actions. -- Carnildo ( talk) 21:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

While the bot's tagging of that image with that tag doesn't seem to make much sense, doesn't blocking the bot because the owner doesn't agree with you seem vindictive? — Kurykh 21:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Sort of, yes, but... if this results in the attitude readjustment Carnildo seems to be hoping for — which I doubt, as such measures often only serve to escalate the dispute, but I'm willing to be proven wrong — then I'm all for it. Don't get me wrong, I can certainly see where Betacommand is coming from here, and I can understand that doing such a thankless task as he and his bot are performing can easily lead one to find ways, such as passing on the buck, to minimize the effort needed to deal with complaints. Even so, I do believe that it is the responsibility of every bot operator to do their best to adapt their bot to any circumstances it might encounter, so as to minimize cases where the bot will act contrary to common sense as most humans would interpret it. I also believe Betacommand would do well to notice that there are situations where "I'm just implementing policy" is not the right response, especially when the specific policy in question ("All images in Category:All non-free media need a fair use rationale.") does not actually seem to be written down anywhere and essentially appears to be Betacommand's own invention.

I realize that this comes across rather harsh, and I hope Betacommand will not take this more personally than I've intended. In the past, I have encountered several cases where BetacommandBot has malfunctioned in this very same way for similar reasons. In all cases, Betacommand has been quite polite and helpful in getting the issue straightened out and the mistagged images fixed, for which I thank him. It's just that the same problem keeps coming up again and again, and I haven't seen any sign of Betacommand acknowledging that there might be anything he, as the bot operator, could or should do to actually prevent it from reoccurring. — Ilmari Karonen ( talk) 22:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Just because I dont say something does not mean that I am not doing anything. when ever there is a problem I do what I can to resolve the issue whether or not it is on wiki or in my bot code, I do what I can to prevent errors. β 00:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

PS I had the category created and placed in {{ non-free media}} to assist in tracking NFC, BCBot just uses the template, but it is useful for quickly seeing if an image is non-free. {{ non-free media}}'s (NFM) sole purpose is for labeling no-free images. All of our non-free license templates include NFM and it serves as the method of labeling media as non-free. β 00:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

In that case, presumably the template and the category it populates should be clearly described as such, stating in big, bold letters and simple words that every image in that category is assumed to require a valid non-free use rationale and may be automatically tagged for deletion if it doesn't. Also, the current uses of the template should be reviewed, since it's clear that right now it's included in a lot of templates where it shouldn't be. (I'm willing to help with that task if you want, but presumably you, as the creator and main user of the template, should take final responsibility of ensuring that it's transcluded only in those templates where it is actually appropriate.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Could you perhaps let us know what the 'obvious' fix is, and describe the problem in a bit more detail? It's not nice to make everyone else on the board play detective. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 21:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand's got at least three options: he can have his bot notice that the image is tagged with a free license and ignore it, he can have the bot notice that the image is not tagged with a fair-use tag and ignore it, or he can request that {{ Non-free media}} be removed from {{ Fairusereview}}. -- Carnildo ( talk) 21:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

And this required the bot to be blocked because for what legitimate reason? — Kurykh 21:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Because the bot is not doing the right thing, and the operator is declining to fix the problem. -- Carnildo ( talk) 22:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Strongly agree with Kurykh, plus, the edit the bot is being blocked for was days ago. Also, if there's something broken that you can fix, just fix it. SQL 21:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The edit was days ago, but this is a task that the bot performs on a regular basis. I don't know when the bot will do it next, but I do know it's buggy, so I've blocked the bot until it's fixed. I could fix it myself, but what about the next time the bot malfunctions? And the next? And the next? I don't want to spend my time chasing around after BetacommandBot when the bot's operator is better-positioned to do so. -- Carnildo ( talk) 22:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Carnildo - Betacommand is a negligent bot-runner who refuses to accept that s/he may have made programming mistakes. I was given two image-deletion notices "...you have uploaded this image..." for images I'd not uploaded. I pointed this out, got some rude reply, asked for an apology and was given the excuse: "You did edit those images". I was ignored when I noted that reverting vandalism on an image page is hardly the same as uploading the image. I think the bot-permission should be rescinded; I took a glance at the blocklog and it runs to more than 50. That's absurd, guys! It certainly needs very careful scrutiny by someone who understands coding.-- Porcupine ( prickle me! · contribs · status) 22:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

(Ec)What the obvious fix was wasn't obvious to me. It is obvious that the bot should not have applied that tag, as the issue for which review was requested is not one of disputed fair use, and in combination with prior reports it is clear that there are not adequate controls in the bot's code to prevent false positives. It is fairly basic that the bot operator is responsible for all operations of the bot. I think it is time to test whether there is actually community consensus for the bot to operate in this area at all. The bot policy clearly places the burden of proof of demonstrating this on the bot operator, and there have been far more administrators objectioning to the bot running than there were total participants in the original bot approval discussion. If I remember that discussion properly, there was only 1 participant other than BetaCommand in it.

The bot policy also says that "Administrators should block bots if they are unapproved, doing something the operator did not say they would do, messing up articles, editing too rapidly, or running anonymously." Tagging images incorrectly is ultimately messing up articles, and thus administrators should block this bot until it is fixed. GRBerry 22:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support. This bot has done almost nothing of value in its entire existence. Most of its actions require human judgment. For example, it tagged images for needing a "rationale" even if they had templates with rationales. It then left messages on article talk pages and user-talk pages. It's a troll bot. Given all the malfunctions it seems to have, I think it would help more than hurt if we left it blocked.— Gnfgb2 ( talk) 00:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to keep calm here, BCBot has not done any NFC tagging since that run and I was waiting to see the outcome of that discussion. the image is disputed as non-free. Carnildo is being an ass. If I had run the bot without resolving that issue then he may have grounds for blocking, But I did not do anything, I was hoping the users involved with that image could sort out the issue, or if Carnildo thought that {{ non-free media}} should not be on the template he could have removed it. Carnildo I ask that you unblock the bot now, as the you are harming the project. BCBot does more than non-free images. β 00:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Be civil. Cheers, Je t Lover ( Report a mistake) 00:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's why you split the bot into separate tasks. If one malfunctions, the other ones keep running. But you refused last time, so you can't keep your cake and eat it too. Titoxd 00:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That is why you dont block the bot if its not malfunctioning, An issue was raised, and I am waiting on the outcome of that before I do anything. (The bot was not doing anything related and carnildo decided to just block it for no apparent reason for an edit that was made days ago). β 01:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Did you tell anyone that you were working on the problem? If not, it is not unreasonable to wonder whether you indeed intend to do anything. AGF goes so far; we don't read minds here.

Your bot has malfunctioned multiple times in the past. If a severe malfunction happens, does it mean we can't block the bot because it is doing other things properly? Titoxd 01:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

If the bot is actively editing and malfunctioning, please block it, But the bot is not doing those task because I was waiting the outcome of a pending discussion. you dont block days after the fact when the operator knows the issue. β 01:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

But you still didn't answer my first question, nor why you are against splitting the bot's tasks over several accounts. Titoxd 01:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Splitting the bot into several accounts would be a pain in the ass and increase the risk of error, along with other problems. β 01:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

How would it increase the risk of error? What other problems? "It would be a pain in the ass" is not an answer, unfortunately. Titoxd 01:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

K.I.S.S. (making the bot use separate accounts would require large amount of unneeded code to be added just to handle that ) β 01:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like your bot code could use some serious re-writing, then. I know that OrphanBot's upload-tagging and image-removal functions can be changed to run under different accounts by changing one line of code. -- Carnildo ( talk) 01:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) The fact that the bot's block log is a mile long kind of makes the "unnecessary" portion of the "avoid unnecessary complexity" clause inapplicable to this case. You are making the argument that the bot is mission critical, so again, that excuse is just that, an excuse. Nor you have answered whether you even told anyone you were looking at the problem in the first case. Titoxd 01:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Waiting for the outcome of the discussion won't change anything. The next time the bot encounters a free image in Category:All non-free media, it will make the same mistake. -- Carnildo ( talk) 01:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I am in the middle of a back-end code cleanup and optimization at the moment. I also have a idea that will help to clean-up our image issues. its a {{free media}} template that will be used to id all free images. But if an image is tagged as both free and non-free the default assumption is that the image is non-free. β 01:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The last part sounds like a bad idea to me, both because, as in this case, there are plenty of ways in which an image can get "accidentally" tagged as non-free, and because we have quite a few images tagged as "free, but just in case, here's a fair use rationale too", which tends to end up involving both free and non-free license tags on the same page, or multilicensed under a free and a non-free (e.g. CC-NC) license. More generally, a non-free image is defined as an image that is not freely licensed; therefore, if the image does have a free license tag, it should be considered free regardless of what other tags or categories might be present.

Also, you don't need a new {{free media}} template to start implementing this: it should be trivial to have BCBot check for existing subcategories of Category:Free images. (Alternatively, it could check for known free image copyright tags, though this would be somewhat harder due to the large number of variants. Still, it should be a moderately easy exercise in regexp matching.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, don't be surprised if the bot as a whole gets blocked because it has stopped doing a single task. There is no way for anyone to know what task the bot is or isn't doing at any given moment. Why not just put on the bot's page any tasks you have stopped it doing (or better yet, what exactly is it doing)? -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 01:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be said here that the bot owner is unresponsive to at least one other appropriate complaint. This thread started the same day as the other, and as of this morning the bot was still posting the same cryptic message. No, I’m not saying this is a reason for blocking, but it shows unresponsiveness. --teb728 (talk) 02:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

We must do something about BetacommandBot

This is not the first time, and it will not be the last time. BetacommandBot was blocked over 50 times because of bugs. There are many complaints that the way BetacommandBot works bites a lot of users, both newcomers and experienced editors. Also, Betacommand does not want to fix his bot.

We must do something about BetacommandBot. I think we should file an RFC against BetacommandBot, where everyone posts what is wrong with BetacommandBot, and then suggests how we can fix it. Once a suggestion on how to fix the bot has consensus, we can try the suggestion, and see whether BetacommandBot works after then. If BetacommandBot cannot be fixed, its time to shut off the bot.

--Kaypoh (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to throw oil on the fire here, but is this really a bug of the bot? If I review the above case, it looks to me that it was doing what it should do, tag media in categories where fair-use media can be found. In this case, the image was in such a category (at this moment in Category:Fair use review requested; so according to the tagging it is fair use), and it does not have a non-free rationale (for which it got tagged, but which it does not need, indeed, but that is because it is categorised wrongly!). So instead of a bot-bug, I would call this a problem with the image. What does it do in Category:Fair use review requested categories, while it is actually not a fair-use image? --Dirk Beetstra 10:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It's there because someone tagged it for review using a tag that (quite unexpectedly, IMO) places it in that category. Now, this might not have been the right way to go about it (probably it should've been sent to WP:PUI for review instead), but you can't expect every new user to know that. In any case, the image is obviously tagged as freely licensed, in a way that a bot should be able to easily tell (the presence of {{PD-ineligible}} is a clear giveaway). Unfortunately, BetacommandBot, as it currently operates, ignores free license tags and just mindlessly assumes that every image directly or indirectly transcluding {{non-free media}} is non-free. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 11:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that bots are not smarter than users. If the bot relies to a non-free image category to lookup images, and nobody expects a user to put a PD image in this very category, it's fairly sure that the bot wouldn't double check for the existence of an other tag contradicting the first. The doc of {{non-free-media}} tells that This template generates a list of all non-free media by being transcluded into every known non-free image copyright tag, allowing a machine-readable list of all non-free media to be created. It seems to me that the bot is right in considering every image tagged as such as non-free. That's the very purpose of the template. Now that this problem was spotted, and that Betacommand told he had something in mind to prevent such user mistake to fool the bot, I fail to see the need to keep the bot blocked. Again, if an admin delete a PD image because it lacks a fair use rationale, the admin (the one with the brain a bot doesn't have) needs to be beaten with the clue stick until they they learned to review images before deleting. -- lucasbfr 12:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well .. Now you assume that the placing of the tag for reviewing is the wrong tag, why is it not the tag that places it in the PD-ineligible that is wrong? There is obviously something wrong with the image. As it may have been the PD-ineligible tag that was placed wrongly, and hence, it may have been a non-free image (which have to be tagged if the fair use is not tagged correctly). Whatever the reason, it should be repaired! Do you expect the bot to go through the history of each image, and determining the 'age' of the accounts (whatever measure that may be) placing either of the tags, and then making a review of which of the tags is most likely to be wrong? I think it would have been more correct to repair the wrong placing of the template in the first place, i.s.o. complaining that the programming of the bot is (again) wrong. Hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra 11:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC) (slightly refactored Dirk Beetstra 12:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC))

I'm starting to think more and more that Betacommandbot is not the issue, we must do something about admins blocking the bot for every glitch that happens that is not directly a bug. Looking at the image for 10 seconds before blocking here would have saved a lot of drama, the cause was that {{fairusereview}} included an incorrect template, not Betacommandbot tagging wrongly (this is an effect). Stop shooting the messenger each time he bears bad news. Do we block users that speedy tags an article when we're not sure the edit was not made in good faith? If you think betacommand tags an image wrongly and you can't see why, ask here, someone will most likely find out the reason, and block if that's the only fix available. -- lucasbfr 12:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

We have 130-some days to bring all images on WP up to requirements (not policy, not guidelines) set by the Project for non-free media; at the rate BCB is handling images and how they are added, it is going to take close to that to complete the task - there's little room for error here. The last thing we want to see happen is the loss of a lot of non-free images because one little thing, required by the Project, was off. I'd much rather BCB be tagging things as false positives (mistakenly tagging a few handful of articles it sorts as having bad rationale though technically being ok when looked at by a human (and thus can be dealt with easily by a human), than to have an excess number of false negatives (articles without proper rationales skirting by and thus failing the Project requirements). Blocking or trying to stop a bot because an unexpected case with no clear or immediate resolution out of the thousands it tests everyday seems to be excessive. Plus, it's not that BCB is deleting the stuff - if it were, I would definitely through caution and block the bot, but given that people still have 7 days to react through messages left at several places (image, user, article pages), and that final deletion is still done by a human, it still ultimately ended up as a human reviewed process, and thus being tagged by BCB is not the kiss of death for an image. --MASEM 12:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, there are many images where the tagging from BetacommandBot of non-free images is directly removed ('because the bot is wrong'), and often results in complaints to Betacommand(Bot). May I friendly ask the admins (and other regulars here) to assume that there actually is something wrong with the image if it gets tagged, even if it is not the correct tag that BetacommandBot has slapped on it, instead of blaming/blocking the bot or its operator? Often the things are small (the fair use rationale is pointing to a redirect page), sometimes articles were wrongly categorised by a wrong tag. I have been handling some of the complaints on the talkpages of Betacommand/Bot, and often there are things wrong, even if it is not obvious what is wrong. Some help in handling the non-obvious things would be much appreciated to actually get to the deadline. Whatever was wrong with the image, still it improves the wikipedia. Thanks! --Dirk Beetstra 12:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

In general, it is not advisable to speed things up and increase the number of false positives merely to meet a deadline. After the deadline has passed, what will naturally happen is that lots of images will be tagged and deleted, and the current effort will be spent on reviewing appeals against those deletions, much as happens now. If someone says they want an image undeleted to add a fair-use rationale, or to fix a minor mistake, then that is generally allowed. If, say, 100,000 images haven't been dealt with by the deadline, then the next year will be spent reviewing appeals - say 10% of images are appealed, that will be 10,000 images to review. The worry is that the non-appealed ones will include acceptable images and that the quality of the encyclopedia will suffer until people eventually discover that an image has gone missing. But I think this is a reasonable compromise. Carcharoth (talk) 12:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the purpose of bots is to make life easier for the Misplaced Pages community; to ease up their time from spending on menial and repetitive tasks. Since BetacommandBot is not comforting our lives, and we're spending our time on fifty+ blocks and several long ANI threads, the bot would seem to be defying its own function.--Porcupine (prickle me! · contribs · status) 12:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least the last of these 50 blocks was completely unnecessary (so less than 98% was correct), and I guess that many others are also debatable. BetacommandBot is comforting our lives, as I explained above, if there the bot tags in error, than that is because there is something wrong with the image, not with the bot! I don't see what is not comfortable about being notified that there (probably) is something wrong with the image. It is not that the bot is doing some general cleanup, this is something that has to be done, above policy. The bots has 10 of thousands of edits, and I think 99.99% of those edits were correct (a higher rate than the correct blocks!). Again, please assume that the bot is tagging because there is something wrong, probably what it tags for, but if that is not the case, then there is something else. Thanks. --Dirk Beetstra 13:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible sock?

Relisted from two days ago; it was archived with no response, probably got overlooked in that mess!! that we don't mention :-)

Following the indef-block of Christian07TARDIS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (see here and here) who was a sockpuppeteer with I think 10+ socks, a new user account was created with, if memory serves, 27 minutes' interval. This new user, It takes ages to find a free username (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), seems absurdly well-up on policy, having used the phrase 'non-notable' in an edit summary in his/her first 60 or so edits. Conversance with policy, however, doesn't seem to be one of Dwrules' strong points, however, so it may be just be on that side of things. The account's definitely a bit too knowledgeable, though.--Porcupine (prickle me! · contribs · status) 21:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

College IP vandalism & defamation

• 134.117.254.250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Non current. 100% of todays edits are vandalism. One WP:BLP violation - . Some subtle vandalism of facts, difficult to disprove. Thanks. -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 23:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

None of the edits today are vandalism, one is a typo correction, and the rest is expanding articles shared IP, not blocking, take it to WP:AIV next time you see real vandalism This is a Secret 01:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Suspicious Behaviour

User:212.32.112.152 has deleted an image from Annie Nightingale without WP:AGF and without notice. I Reverted this with a VW2 warning. He then switched IPs to User:212.32.97.36 and did the same thing and also gave a WP:NPA attack as shown here ]. Judging by previous edit history this looks like a sock of User:Gnome Economics, who has not edited since I last brought this issue here. Could someone look at this before it goes to WP:RFCU please, as I don't want to get into WP:3RR territory unnecessarily? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 01:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Now accusing me of breaching policy before realising it won't stick ]--Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 01:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Content dispute (whether to include a fairuse image on an article about a living individual) so doesn't require admin intervention. Suggest talking on user page. I actually agree with him. Policy is against fairuse image simply decoratively showing what living people look like. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I take your point and I would discuss the matter but he seems unwilling to engage in discussion, as the history of this page shows. But almost an hour has passed and this editor has gone quiet since I mentioned WP:ANI on his talk page. Strangely, seven weeks ago, User:Gnome Economics went quiet in much the same circumstances. Whilst I am prepared to WP:AGF to an extent, I have taken a look at WP:SOCK and WP:RFCU but since I do not know who an alleged sockmaster might be, I am somewhat perplexed. My scenario is that User:Gnome Economics may be a sock of a blocked or banned editor, likewise the two IPs mentioned above, and the idea of being examined here or elsewhere is not welcome to him/her. I try not to be paranoid about these things but something is not quite right. In fact it stinks to high heaven. Anyone care to advise? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 02:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, per your talk page, missing the sock allegations. I'll look into it. First, Gnome isn't blocked in any way. See his block log. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, no he isn't. Somebody else might be. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 02:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Ok, for everyone else, this is a continuation or just following Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive319#I_feel_harrassed.. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Related to, as a prior incident, but different issues now arise. I accept the fair-use argument, but that is now fixed (I hope) --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 11:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Chunuk Bair

Vandal bot said that it had reverted an edit i had made to this article, yet i hadn't heard of this battle or seen the article until i got the message from it. 219.88.79.63 (talk) 01:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's because you have a dynamic IP address. Someone else used this IP before you did, and vandalized the article in question. As one of the notices on your page said, "If this is a shared IP address, and you didn't make any unconstructive edits, consider creating an account for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant warnings." --Haemo (talk) 02:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Cusses you beat me by a few seconds (I replied on talk). James086 02:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Sock puppet?

Hello, I'd like to report a possible sock puppet. Harnaker13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) may be a sock puppet of Biochemical Mind. The account was created at 9:26 on the 20th. Two minutes after, he created Template:FCB - meaning he knew the system well enough to create a template (which I feel is unnecessary.) Then a minute after that, he replaces Biomechanical Mind's userpage with the template, using the edit summary "he's not banned." Checking the block log, he isn't. Then s/he created a redirect to the template and split. All this in five minutes. Pretty suspicous, isn't it? Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 04:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

If by suspicious you mean he's a duck. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. I've blocked the account as an apparent sock of User:Biochemical Mind. MastCell 05:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: Dozo article

Lately, a string of IP users have had a grand time vandalizing Dozo by editing in an unrelated image (Image:Dozo.jpg), and I'm getting tired of not only reverting the article, but having to revert already four times my user pages that have been vandalized by the same IPs who are unhappy about me doing this. I request there be placed a semi-protection on the article for now.--十八 06:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotected for a while. In the future note WP:RFPP is a few doors down the hall. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Foot job

Would some one mind closing this, thanks. Tiptoety (talk) 07:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

And this AfD requires special attention above all other AfDs in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Old because...? —Kurykh 07:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me. Tiptoety (talk) 07:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It's ok. Please excuse my biting sarcasm. —Kurykh 07:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Grandmaster

User:Grandmaster, who is under Armenia-Azerbaijan-2 arbitration enforcement limitations, is adding an partisan Armenian source to Wiki despite he was asked many times to not use it as a relibale source. Today once again he deleted non-partisan reliable information (cited from Italian historian Giovanni Guaita and The New York Times) without any explanations at the talk page and readded the partisan Armenian source (Hovanissian) . Can pls any Admin to check up if Grandmaster's addings are OK? Andranikpasha (talk) 12:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Andranikpasha has been engaged in disruptive editing on Shusha for quite some time, removing sources and replacing them with the ones that he likes more, while failing to reach any consensus for his edits. I don’t think this board is a place to discuss content disputes. Grandmaster (talk) 12:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Andranikpasha has also engaged in disruptive edit warring and stonewalling of references at Khachen, for which he was warned . Also, prior to that he has been unblocked and warned for disruptive editing subject to mentorship of User:VartanM. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 12:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

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