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Archives

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Archived

This is a complete mess. Seems to me the original call for the link to Overstock came from Piperdown, a blatant meatpuppet of Bagley, and it's virtually impossible to purge the dead hand of Bagley from the ill-tempered and serially WP:BLP violating debate on this page. So it's time to start again. And the rules are:

• WP:BLP
• WP:NPA
• WP:HARASS
• WP:NPOV
• WP:V
• WP:RS.

If anyone wants to bring a reliable source that discusses, in properly analytical terms, some additional content we can use for this article, they are most welcome. Blogs, opinion pieces and tittle-tattle on the web are not reliable or significant enough to overcome concerns, since we know Mr Weiss has been actively harassed in real life. Individuals active on websites where Bagley is active are recommended in the strongest possible terms to leave well alone, since an extremely dim view will be taken of any suspicion of editing by proxy on his behalf.

And one final thing: this is absolutely not the place to rehash arguments taking place elsewhere. If you can document them by reference to properly analytical debate by independent authorities in reliable sources, then we can talk, but what has gone on here in the past is not good enough. Guy (Help!) 17:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Guy, I wonder if your archiving was a good call here. Aside from a few snide remarks ("stop blowing smoke out your ass") and fanciful insinuations (i.e. that Cla68 was a Bagley representative) the debate was fairly productive, policy-focused (NPF, BLP, UNDUE), and forward-looking, and there seemed to be no (Bagley) meatpuppets in sight.--G-Dett 18:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's the "apart from" that was the problem. Feel free to resume the debate without the bits that require "apart from". Guy (Help!) 19:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It was absolutely the right call. And my sysop tools are ready and waiting to enforce the list he provided. Proceed with legitimate references and encyclopedic discussion, or not at all. Durova 20:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, Durova. I will briefly point out that (a) Cla68's initial RfC two days ago was serious and manifestly in good faith; (b) the personal attacks (implying that Cla68 was a Bagley representative, etc.) began with the first poster but had petered out by yesterday morning; (c) the discussion section at the time of archiving ("Replies to RfC") was productive, policy-oriented, and free of personal attacks. With respect, the time for the RESET button (or other sysop intervention) was after the first posted response to Cla68's RfC two days ago, not during the constructive discussion two hours ago.--G-Dett 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Full support

Durova and Guy have my full support here. No nonsense, zero tolerance, shoot on sight. No kidding, this has gone on long enough.--Jimbo Wales 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Most of us usually try to give some reasoning for any action, proposed action, or threatened action that we discuss on an article's talk page. Would you mind doing the same? Cla68 21:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

All right, you are subject to a 24 hour block for violation of WP:POINT. The reason is that this page exists for encyclopedic collaboration, not drama. Durova 21:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

While I think the block may have been a tad excessive, I did say zero tolerance and shoot on sight. Cla68, I fear that you have been manipulated by lying stalkers and trolls, and I am happy to talk to you about it privately, but I am sick of the drama around this issue on this page, and it absolutely has to come to an end. I recommend that Durova (no one else! no wheel wars please!) reduce the block as a gesture of good faith, but if Durova wants you to sit out the 24 hours, I will respect that as well. I support all reasonable efforts to clarify that the support for trolls and stalkers needs to stop.--Jimbo Wales 01:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments and remedy and I'll respond more on your talk page. Cla68 09:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, Jimbo. A conversation ends when all the evidence is presented and people are convinced. It does not end because a godhead says it does. When you yell "stalker" while obscuring the discussion you appear no different from Bush yelling "terrorist" while asserting executive privilege (eep, shades of Godwin's law!). I am just a casual contributor to wikipedia but I have noticed increasingly that every time I make a slightly controvertial edit, I am subjected to threats. You step on someone's pet project and suddenly they're telling you how many administrators they personally know and how quickly you'll be banned if you don't drop the issue immediately. That is not a conversation about the facts, it is an Appeal to authority. It didn't used to be this way. When the recent drama unfolded with Durova, I speculated that the formation of a "cabal" was responsible for this increase. Now that I have seen the words "shoot on sight," all doubt is removed. Those of us coming out of the woodwork because we are offended at this threatening tendency are not sockpuppets. By responding in a reactionary manner, you are causing even uninvolved parties to exhibit the behavior that you attribute to sock puppets. Bagley's probably a nutcase, but "shoot on sight" just proves his point. You simply cannot build an open encyclopedia based on the appeal to authority. It is vital that we retain the ability to accept content from anonymous users based on the quality of the content rather than the perceived separation between the contributor and the administration, and that is at risk when this is the example that you set for the other administrators. Galexander (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Register story

I have protected this article for a short time due to a train of questionable edits over the last 24 hours. Aside from the Register story being straight from the Judd Bagley press pack, it is of no evident reliability, and the accompanying weasel words certainly don't improve it. The Register is reaosnably reliable for matters technical but is quite clearly pursuing a tabloid agenda here. Guy (Help!) 14:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello JzG, I had recently read a few articles on the Weiss controversy and, as you can see, was making an attempt to remove any bias from the article and explain the situation objectively. I don't see how that could cause the lockdown of the article. Considering this controversy is written about far beyond The Register, it meets notability and verification guidelines. Joshdboz (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no "Weiss controversy." There is a widely publicized Overstock.com smear campaign against critics, which is dealt with in the Overstock.com article itself where it belongs. It had been previously discussed and determined (see earlier discussion and archives) that this kind of rubbish has no place in this article under BLP, specifically WP:NPF. That is separate and apart, and cumulative, with the RS issue on The Register as a source for BLPs.--Samiharris (talk) 14:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything mutually exclusive between including similar information on two Misplaced Pages articles, especially if we have NYT articles writing about this. To ignore it would be almost as much POV pushing as some of the earlier edits that were reverted. Proposed section:

Naked Short Selling Dispute

Weiss has been a sharp critic of Overstock.com CEO Patrick M. Byrne and his opposition to short selling, which led to the creation of an originally anonymous and critical website of Weiss, later reported to be run by Overstock.com's director for social media, Judd Bagely. Weiss has been accused by Bagely of making biased edits to the Misplaced Pages entries on Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and himself, but Weiss has denied ever doing so. Joshdboz (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you said that already. Repetition is not the mother of invention. --Samiharris (talk) 15:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The sources for this are a PDF of Bagley's hate site and a Register story which parrots Bagley's nonsense. Both are clearly polemical and motivated by spite. Neither is a reliable source for a biography article. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a decision that should be made through a consensus on this talk page, but regardless, the NYT deserves citing. Smiharris, I am sorry if my repetition bothered you, I am just trying to find a solution to this. Frankly, I have never heard of any of these people before today. Please do not belittle a good faith attempt. Joshdboz (talk) 15:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What I was trying to convey, and will repeat, is that the issues you raise have been discussed lengthily and disposed of on at least three prior occasions, and that your addition was against talk page consensus (even if you include previous Bagley socks) and BLP.--Samiharris (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I have done a quick read through the major arguments in the archived pages. But after citing the NYT in hundreds of articles myself, I fail to see how this one should be any different. Weiss has notability in part because of his criticism of such and such persons - witness all the discussion that this has provoked here. And it so happens that the NYT reports this. I fail to comprehened that after all that archived talk, no compromise sentence or two were found. Joshdboz (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• You're missing the point. We are not here to help Bagley spread his meme. Guy (Help!) 15:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Bagely, I'm talking about Weiss's criticism of Byrne and others. Joshdboz (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Which brings you back to Bagley. Enough already. Asked and answered a thousand times.--Samiharris (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This article should be tagged with ADV tag, since it does read like auto biography. Register does make a fair point. There is no reason for the senior editors to protect Gary. TwakTwik (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the Register does not make a fair point, it parrots Bagley's idiocy uncritically. Guy (Help!) 16:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah? show me a sentence in the article that references any criticism of Gary?. Please don't tell me he is perfect. It currently reads like Misplaced Pages is bowing and bending over for Gary. Even Rudy Giulliani has a controversies section. TwakTwik (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, this situation is just a joke. I have never encountered another article where pieces of relevant and factual information (Weiss's criticism of Byrne and the reaction) are excluded without a search for a compromise. And personal attacks from Wikipedians against the persons in question, regardless of who they are or what they've done, are really uncalled for - sorry I bothered trying to help. Joshdboz (talk) 17:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess you haven't edited too many BLPs. WP:BLP deals explicitly with these kinds of situations, and the rule is that you must be careful to include material that is relevant to a subject's notability when he or she is not generally known. The presence of a sustained corporate smear campaign, such as inspired and repeated in the Register article, underlines the need to enforce BLP strictly, and it is the reason administrators and even Jimbo have had to intervene multiple times. We have this discussion every time Judd Bagley belches, and it is becoming a bit tiresome.--Samiharris (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If you look at my user page you can see that have started dozens of article's on living people, including some that could be quite controversial (see Michael Harari for one). However, it is clear that Weiss's dispute with Byrne is notable and verifiable, not just from the NYT's article, but from others, including this WSJ blog that described Weiss as "persistent critic of Overstock and its CEO Patrick Byrne." Google "gary weiss" "patrick byrne" and you get 8,540 results. That's much more than the subject of many Misplaced Pages articles even get. I have no desire or intention to "smear" Weiss, just objectively explain a very public and apparently very notable dispute that involves him intimately. Joshdboz (talk) 17:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm here for the first time, but Guy, reading all this you seem to have a very personal involvement. I don't know/care who Bagley is, but I certainly know the New York Times and The Register, and they should certainly be mentioned. Far be it for any of us to judge their editorial content or sources; that is better left to the reader. Maybe its time to recuse yourself? To my eyes, I'm sorry, but you don't seem impartial. Kwandar (talk) 17:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Final comment on this topic from me. I fully understand that most of us here are guests at Misplaced Pages. It is controlled by Jimmy Wales and only those people he trusts. Sorry that I tried to make Misplaced Pages better by asking for balance. I realize its your home and you guys make the rules, and as guests we just need to obey the house rules. Thats it for me on this controversy. Happy holidays. TwakTwik (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I read the Register article linked from Slashdot. I came here to see what they were talking about, and I was extremely disappointed to see that this article has been full administrator-only locked. Whatever happened to the ideals of the wisdom of crowds? It makes me think that there is indeed "something wrong with the way the project... is administered" or why would the administrators be trying to clamp down on edits from people trying to mention this newsworthy controversy? I've lost some faith in Misplaced Pages today. SamLL (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That is precisely the point. You came to this article because of an article inspired by Judd Bagley, Director of Communications of Overstock.com, who has waged an on- and off-wiki campaign to influence this and other articles. That campaign has some marginal notability and is dealt with in a subbsection of Overstock.com. He is paid for the purpose of getting people like you to come to this and other articles and become disappointed, or upset, or whatever. One aspect of his jihad is to undermine and vandalize Misplaced Pages. That is why this subject periodically rears its ugly head, and it is why administrators have had to clamp down on this article a number of times.--Samiharris (talk) 18:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've had similar run-ins with accusatory editors, and have similarly lost faith. I think the only way to ensure that Fair and Balanced is a reality is to keep your purse strings tied together during the current fundraising endeavor; I know I will. Mangler (talk) 17:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I would hope that Misplaced Pages is never "Fair and Balanced™", at least not in the Faux News sense. And that, of course, is the problem here: Bagley is a vicious hatemonger whose approach to anything other than uncritical adoration is reliably to harass and attack. He's finally found someone as mad as he is in Cade; the two of them make a perfect couple. Guy (Help!) 18:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you completely forget about Bagley for one moment. Weiss is a well reported critic of Patrick Byrne, and it has been reported in many places as such. That should at the very least be included. Then, one can determine whether the reaction to Weiss's criticsims, which has also been reported, is a notable and verifiable enough event to be included. Joshdboz (talk) 18:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. There's a faction that is determined to keep changing the subject to "Bagley is Evil!" every time the subject of this article's bias comes up. That's beside the point. If Osama bin Laden were to announce that 2+2=4, would everybody have to suppress this fact so as to not give even the appearance of agreeing with an evildoer? *Dan T.* (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see that your quoted remark was anywhere in the Overstock.com article. If you feel that that article is POV, then I suggest you work on it to try and make it less POV.--MONGO (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy, would you care to quote your sources for stating that "Bagley is a vicious hatemonger"? ;) Seriously, the language is so strong that even if I were inclined to believe you (if I even cared) I wouldn't. One of the key ideas behind Misplaced Pages was to present a neutral viewpoint, and yet you don't want "fair and balanced"? You don't even want to quote other reputable news sources (if not The Register, certainly the New York Times)? Joshdboz is right on all counts. I'm not sure I want to stop contributing, but this is certainly making me question Misplaced Pages.Kwandar (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Template:Support - Guy, Samiharris, Your views on this discussion seem biased. I dont care who Bagley is, but it is critical to ensure that this article maintains neutrality, and include criticisms as well. Please dont quote Bagley for the reply. Simynazareth (talk) 18:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And it makes no sense that Guy has removed portions with reference to NyTimes (see the last edits by Joshboz) with a vague reference to {{WP:BLP}}. Guy seems to have got this thing completely wrong. Request some one (administrators) to unblock the article, and to revert last edits. This is really hurting credibility of wikipedia. 19:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Simynazareth (talk) 19:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I listed such a request at WP:RFP. will381796 (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The "vague reference to BLP" alludes to the extensive and long ago resolved discussions that took place on these identical issues in October, drawing such heat and troublemaking that Jimbo intervened. Why? Because this article is under attack from the official spokesman of Overstock.com, who will stop at nothing in his vicious campaign of villification against the subject of this article and others. Guy is under no obligation to recite for you the long history of vandalism and stalking that has plagued this article for months. It is evident in the talk page history and the archives. --Samiharris (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Samiharris, I've gone through the archives, and the feeling I get it is your views on this, and to keep NYT artcle away from this article is biased. You are quoting Bagley, Overstock.com etc for keeping any criticism about Gary Weiss - which is counter productive. Valid criticism from reputed sources is not vilification, and if BLP of someone does not have an iota of criticism in the article, there is something seriously wrong in the article. Any sorry to say that, from the archives, you seem to be one of those who are responsible for not including any criticism in this article. (this is not a personal attack) Simynazareth (talk) 02:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely understand where you're coming from Samiharris, and I'm sorry I wasn't aware of this issue a while ago, but the actions of one rogue editor in the past have absolutely nothing to do with the information that should or should not be included in this article today. And if someone adds information in a biased way, it should be amended (as I was attempting to do this morning). Joshdboz (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As a neutral observer, I will admit that it is disappointing to see the results of The Register's article here. I understand the need to be careful with biographies of living people, but I completely fail to see how this means there shouldn't be any mention of the issue at all. I find it very difficult to believe that this controversy can't be mentioned in a neutral manner. Regardless of what merit individual people may feel with it, it is noteworthy. You point out the number of people that have come to this article specifically because of The Register article. Correct. Now think about the number of people that will believe everything in that article because they see a pretty-much universally positive article about Gary Weiss without any option to make an edit. The refusal of a few people to make any edits to this article will undermine the credibility of Misplaced Pages a lot more than some brief mention of the controversy IMO. -Kraw Night (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The short answer is no, a tabloid website article regurgitating ancient smears is insufficient to override BLP. Since the BLP issues have been fully discussed in the past, you may want to review the archives.--Samiharris (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I dunno. "The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability..." seems to fit well here, but this isn't my point. I don't really care about Weiss or Bryne. However, it is worth examining how this standpoint is affecting Misplaced Pages's credibility. People read the article, come here, and see that they can't make edits. Then they also see that two people on opposite sides of debate have two very different pages, one being mostly positive, one offering a lot of negatives. If there can be negative comments on one page, by the same logic, they can apply to the other I would feel. Otherwise this just seems to breed controversy... -Kraw Night (talk) 22:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Fully agree, this is ridiculous. Having been a longtime user of Misplaced Pages, I did not think the Register article had any merit to it until I actually came here. Samiharris, Guy, you guys and the statements you've made here are quite frankly the best evidence supporting the truth of the Register article and Bagley'y position. Konekoniku (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hear, hear! -Mangler (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As much as the Register article posted on Slashdot (and the other one about Durova) do seem tabloid-like, it is kind of sad to see Misplaced Pages admins working so hard to prove the points in the articles in both cases. More to the point, why is everyone here so concerned about protecting this article against any criticism, which reads like it might be a bio-blurb from his own site? It can't just be because he's a living person. After all, look at Patrick M. Byrne, another living person, whose article seems to be as much the product of smearing as any I've seen on the Misplaced Pages, far worse than the anti-Misplaced Pages tabloid reporting in the Register.

Looking over this talk page, I see a number of fairly reasonable points from concerned people, and User:Samiharris ineffectively deflecting it with claims that this has been "fully" (fully!? what the hell is that supposed to mean) discussed in the past. Even worse is User:JzG's suggestion that we shouldn't add NYT-sourced information to the article because it would be helping Bagley spread his meme. "The terrorists have already won. . ."

I second the notion that User:JzG should step aside from defending the block on this article and let an admin with a leveller head be the gatekeeper for it. Jun-Dai (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm extremely disturbed this entire episode, and I'll be doing some deeper digging when I get the chance. It's safe to say that given what I've seen so far, any admins involved in the past controversy should not be deciding whether it is a controversy or not. We need someone from outside the circle. OptimistBen (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point. Gary Weiss is a noteable journalist who has AFAIK wroten a lot of articles on a lot of different subjects. None of these stand out as a core area of his. Therefore, excessive coverage of controversy regarding one area that Weiss is worked in violated UNDUE. Furthermore few if any reliable sources have covered the alleged controversy surrounding Weiss. On the other hand, Patrick Bryne is primarily noted for 2 things. 1 being the founder of overstock.com. 2 being a strong critic of naked short selling. Some of his comments in particular are somewhat bizarre. In any case, for a large variety of reasons, he has attracted a significant amount of controversy particularly surrounding his anti naked short selling campaign which is covered by reliable sources. Therefore, there is a big difference between these two people and in what we should cover in the articles surrounding them. But both of them are protected by BLP Nil Einne (talk) 14:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

"None of these stand out as a core area of his" -- Nil Einne, if you read the NYT piece as well as other comments from places like the WSJ, you will find that Weiss has indeed developed a reputation as a critic of Byrne, with the NYT saying that Weiss has "made a second career out of ridiculing Mr. Byrne on his blog." How can adding one sentence about this in this article be undue weight? Joshdboz (talk) 14:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is a "core area" - to Judd Bagley, which is why we are having this discussion. But it is not a core area in the context of the distinguished and long career which makes him notable in the first place. The oft-quoted hyperbole in the Times article has already been debated to death long before Bagley's latest propaganda lured you to the article, so please stop the constant rehash and repetition.--Samiharris (talk) 14:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(removed personal attack. Crum375 (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC))

• Just a note to all the concerned parties here, be sure to check the discussions contained in Archive 2 as they are relevant to this discussion. They were archived even though the much of the discussions at the time were ongoing. Cla68 (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

No real point to counting the angel's on the pin. The "fully discussed" comment was merely Sami's way of indicating that there is a lot of illuminating material in the archived file he specified, and that instead of having the same old same old roundabout again (and again) some editors might want to look at it. Which seems fair enough to yours truly. --Christofurio (talk) 00:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Fair enough. I looked over the discussion on /Archive 2. I have to say, that discussion seems to have been archived a bit prematurely, but in any case it doesn't change my picture of the situation, except that I discovered that the attempt to include the NYT reference isn't new. With or without the material buried in the archive, the situation still doesn't seem like it would look good for anyone coming over from Slashdot and/or The Register. Even though I don't intend to invest any time in fixing it, I feel it's relevant to add my two cents as others have done here. Jun-Dai (talk) 01:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Grammar and Edit Blocking

Interesting Story on Slashdot about this article... http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/12/07/1434221.shtml Maria-mesh (talk) 17:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that this article is being Slashdotted, the block on general editing is perhaps understandable. But poor grammar and punctuation are still unacceptable. As just the first example, commas and other punctuation marks go INSIDE quotation marks: Weiss wrote a cover story called "The Mob on Wall Street", published in December 1996). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadamhiram (talk • contribs) 19:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, that's a strictly American convention. I've seen punctuation outside quotation marks elsewhere on WP. Frankly, I've always thought it made more sense; the article is not called The Mob on Wall Street-comma, it's called The Mob on Wall Street. The comma is part of the sentence structure, not the title. Now, I'm saying this having been away from WP long enough that I don't recall what the MoS has to say on the topic of international punctuation conventions. --BCSWowbagger (talk) 22:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

See here. Crum375 (talk) 22:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism to be included

Any other admins here - this is the portion of criticism that Guy has removed, siting BLP. Please include the same in the article. If there are valid reasons not to include this in the article (apart from Bagleyfobia), please site the same.

- ==Naked Short Selling Controversy== - Weiss's comments on anti-naked-shorting activists have provoked some negative responses. Weiss has been a sharp critic of Overstock.com CEO Patrick M. Byrne and his opposition to short selling, which led to the creation of a critical website of Weiss by Overstock.com's director for social media. Weiss has also been accused of making biased edites to the Misplaced Pages entries on Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and himself, though he has denied ever doing so.

Simynazareth (talk) 02:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This has been rehashed to death. This article is a WP:BLP. It must be extremely well sourced for any derogatory statements. In addition, any item must not violate WP:UNDUE. For a journalist with a long career who has written numerous pieces in mainstream publications, and who has been involved in many notable investigations, including some relating to organized crime, there are numerous well sourced issues that could be written about in his biography. At any given stage, the items that do appear in the article must be the most relevant to his overall notability. As of now, the article is fairly short, which would require only the most notable items to appear. I would suggest that anyone interested in expanding this article read Mr. Weiss's numerous articles and learn about his investigations and other activities in his career, and then prioritize them by notability. When that's done, we can decide which ones merit inclusion and which ones do not. As of now, the Overstock episode appears to be insignificant compared to the many others that seem much more important, and include virtually no details. Crum375 (talk) 02:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Here is some more information to expand the article. Someone (ofcourse an admin - the article being protected) should expand the article, and maintain a neutral point of view, including his life history, achievements, and criticism. Simynazareth (talk) 03:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I can do that, technically speaking. But you would have to reach a clear consensus here, that does not violate WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, etc. The source you provide seems OK, but I suspect there are numerous others. What you should do, if you really want to expand the article properly, is pick an item, say some investigation from his career, find the relevant sources, and propose a change to the article. The best would be to start from the most notable items. If you reach consensus here, I would be happy to vet the result against BLP and UNDUE, and if all seems OK, I can insert it into the article for you. Crum375 (talk) 03:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand the WEIGHT point, but he does seem to blog about it a lot. The New York Times described criticizing Overstock as his second career. Cool Hand Luke 04:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Why was this article reverted and then protected? Cool Hand Luke 04:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't do it here, but as a rule in WP:BLP articles, admins may revert to a less controversial version (or even a stub) and protect it, if in their view there is excessive tendency to insert controversial items that violate BLP into the article. Crum375 (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I suppose that's good. I tend to be a BLP hawk myself, and not enough pages get this kind of treatment. Cool Hand Luke 04:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

George Soros was protected for a long time because of BLP concerns. He was accused by Bill O'Reilly of backing the Media Matters liberal website. That was denied by Media Matters. That situation involved a public figure, and the BLP concerns were far less significant than here. Here you have petty personal attacks, a determined corporate smear campaign and an article in the press clearly designed to influence Misplaced Pages, and even linking to this article.--Samiharris (talk) 12:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

While the admins are correct in making the decision to lock this article. The current state of the article is not neutral and there is definitely lots of questions about the neutrality of the article,as seen from the comments in these very pages.Therefore a neutrality tag at the very least could be added to the page readers can decide what to take which ever viewpoint they want to.Refusing to even make that change will completely validate the claims of the article in the register.While accepting the view that wikipedia is not democratic it should be at least neutral in its standpoint.The so called inner circle have a enormous responsibility for guarding the information contained in these portals i hope they won't fail in that task so dismally in this first test.There should be mechanisms to deal with controversies that question the very principles of wikipedia like this.More and more people consider wikipedia to be a responsible source of information,so in the future there will be incidences like this which put the entire administrative process in question.The current mechanisms have not dealt with this problem satisfactorily as i am sure all of you will agree.SO the question is whats been done to prevent or at least deal with such events in the future.Misplaced Pages need not be a democracy jimbo but it should not be a dictatorship all administrative processes must be transparent after all this is a social project.Manquer (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If consensus can be reached on this talk page that the current article is not neutral, in theory such a template could be added, although a much better solution would be to fix the specific problem. So if you have a specific problem you can point to, that you think violates WP:NPOV, please present it so it can be addressed. To save you time, if it has to do with the Overstock issues, then you'd have to show how adding it would not violate WP:UNDUE, per the above discussion. Crum375 (talk) 06:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought the point of adding an NPOV tag was that the "neutrality was disputed," (from the NPOV banner itself) not that everyone agrees that it is non-neutral, and it's quite clear in this case that the neutrality of the article is disputed. As for it being non-neutral, the article seems about as neutral as it would if he had written it as his resume. I love the use of the quote "Gary is among an elite group of journalists whose zest for investigative journalism has brought real change to the subjects he's covered." That pretty much covers the tone of the article. Jun-Dai (talk) 07:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I support this. "author of two books that critically examine the ethics and morality of Wall Street." - Statements like this could be rephrased. As of now, {{NPOV}} needs to be added till someone does further research and provides a neutral tone to the article. (or someone rephrases the current content to a neutral, encyclopedic tone). Simynazareth (talk) 07:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Crum375 the overstock issue is also a part of the overall problem with the article.Overstock issue has gained lot of press attention in part of the controversy here and because of Gary Weiss' own views as expressed in his own blog ,Infact if you do spend the time to go through it u would find that a large amount of the bandwidth is used for this issue alone.A belief so central to him should have been mentioned in the article,which is sorely lacking.Infact WP:UNDUE is to be applied here as undue emphasis has been given to lesser known information.Also people who come to this article would expect to know about the current controversy involving him.Manquer (talk) 08:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Virtually every article or policy on Misplaced Pages has some people disputing it. If we were to tag all of them, that would only disfigure the encyclopedia and add nothing useful. The way we operate is by consensus. If there is a consensus for change X, we put in change X, assuming it does not violate our policies. I would be happy, as I noted above, to insert any change in the article once such consensus is reached here. Crum375 (talk) 08:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That seems a bit messed up. I'm guessing such a consensus is impossible, since the article is being held hostage by someone that seems to prefer the content in the state it's in now, but perhaps I'm wrong on this point. Does anyone disagree that the article as it stands does not present a neutral point of view? Jun-Dai (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the point this article violates on of the core three principles of wikipedia -neutrality evidence for this has been submitted by me and others in this section.We are not proposing a change to the article to be executed we are asking for the article to be changed in such a way that it is in conformation with wikipedia standards and principle,until such changes are made after due consensus has been reached on them a {NPOV} banner be placed .We dont need consensus for that , just evidence -which is given- i will gladly consider any debate regarding the validity of the evidence.u tell me why this evidence is insufficient.Manquer (talk) 08:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Add an NPOV tag until this issue is resolved?

• Support Jun-Dai (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Manquer (talk) 08:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support OptimistBen (talk) 08:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Simynazareth (talk) 10:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Strong support, per my statement above. Konekoniku (talk) 16:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• No, I won't be adding an NPOV tag. We already know that Bagley uses disinformation and harassment against anyone who does not uncritically support his company, we can scarcely say that a failure to repeat that harassment here is a failure of neutrality. I see that a couple of you are newish, and the others do nto do much on biographies. Please read up on WP:BLP (which has changed quite considerably in the last year) and WP:RS. We do not include poorly sourced material in biographies, and polemical sources are not reliable. The Cade piece is clearly polemical, Bagley is as polemical as you can possibly get, and the material is stated in terms that are functionally indistinguishable from an outright attack. So, unless we can find better sources and better wording, we shrug it off as "vituperative piece by vituperative person" and ignore it. Guy (Help!) 11:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Guy / JzG - No one is asking you to add NPOV tag. You've shown complete bias of views in zealously trying to remove any criticism from this article. I would prefer you not using your administrative rights in this article - you are not maintaining a cool head in this. Some of you have been quite Bagley fobic, which has resulted in even valid criticism getting omitted from this article. If you notice, the text you removed from article just before protecting it was the text from NyTimes article (not from Cade - register), with valid references. It's not right to quote Cade piece after such an action. I request some other admin look into this, and take into views expressed in this talk page. To my credentials - I am an admin in another wikipedia, with 6000+ edits and more than 1 year of wikipedia experience. Simynazareth (talk) 11:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy the fact that that new members are requesting the tag has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a tag should be added or not.Just because i don't edit articles in wikipedia doesn't mean i am a newbie here,buts thats beside the point.I have read the BLP quite throughly nowhere does say that a neutrality tag should not be used.Any point any of us raise u just say bagely is making propaganda,why don't u get it into your head that bagely has nothing to do whatsoever with this section.THIS Article is violating the fundamental principles of wikipedia- thats our contention and have submitted or evidence supporting the stand.IF you are rejecting the claim and the evidence then kindly explain it in proper ,valid, just terms just don't say the same stuff about what Bagely is doing.Please stop this mindless babble repeating the same drivel.it makes u look dumber than you are .Manquer (talk) 12:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(Removing comment per http://en.wikipedia.org/Wp:blp#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material, which specifically applies to talk page comments)

The point is whether or not Bagley or Weiss is evil or good. The point is to maintain neutrality. For me - it looks like any criticism to Weiss is getting branded as Pro-Bagley or Amateur. Trying to make an angel out of Weiss is as bad as trying to smear Weiss. Simynazareth (talk) 12:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This entire discussion is not just absurd, but it is ugly, with some editors repeating the smears in antisocialmedia. This is a BLP and that is just not acceptable. I agree that it is time for an administrator, Jzg or someone else, to intervene, but for the purpose of putting an end to what is becoming a really disturbing discussion. Enough is enough. This is a BLP, certain strict rules apply particularly for nonpublic figures, and those rules are being enforced. Yes, the article for this person and many other minor nonpublic figures often reads like promotional literature, because most people who qualify for Misplaced Pages have accomplished good work. Weiss, for example, has engaged in much very fine investigative reporting and was in fact commended by the FBI.

One of the many things that made the Register article absurd was that it drew an analogy between Weiss' bio and Patrick M. Byrne's. Patrick Byrne is a controversial figure and is notable for precisely that reason. All the reliable sourcing on that person reflects his controversies and penchant for saying things that land him into trouble. Just recently became embroiled in publicity over his backing of school vouchers in Utah, and received still more negative press. He got into a spat with the NAACP by saying high school dropouts should be "burned." That is his reliably sourced coverage and that is why his bio reads differently than Weiss and other people not so controversial. Another difference is that he is the head of a public company, and is a public figure while Weiss is not, and is subject to still additional BLP protections.

In reply to one editor, if he is not aware of the history of this tawdry mess, the onus is upon him to do so. The archive pages and earlier page history speak for themselves, as does the Overstock.com article itself in its section entitled "Antisocialmedia.net," which contains the reliable sourcing on this smear campaign. Elsewhere in that article you can find details on Overstock's history of campaigning against critics.--Samiharris (talk) 12:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that Gary isn't controversial ?? the article in its current state mentions the negative criticisms he is getting for his views.So that claim dosen't hold water either.He to is controversial for your info not on just this issue but others as well his comments on Wal-Mart coming to India drew lot of flak in India which you are probably not aware of.He is controversial in more than one issue please do your research before making such statements. I don't want to get down into mudslinging but the attitude of the some of the admins on the entire issue is disgusting and tarnishing the image of the entire portal Manquer (talk) 12:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Weiss has upset the naked shorting crowd, and that is reflected in the article and given the sentence that it deserves. If you can cite some controversy in India that is reported in reliable sources, by all means provide cites here and we can see if it belongs in the article. All I see now are the same repetitive arguments that have been made many times in the past, only with more people making them because of a Bagley-planted article. --Samiharris (talk) 12:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that you wouldnt let any negative statement to come in this article. Looks like a holy cow :-) Since when did NyTimes became a non-reliable source? GuY is yet to explain why he deleted that portion. Simynazareth (talk) 12:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately for the Judd Bagley campaign to insert negative material in this article, BLP requires that it be reliably sourced and that it relate directly to the notability of a nonpublic person. Yes, that is going to definitely put obstacles in the path of smear campaigns, as well it should. It is designed specifically for that purpose.--Samiharris (talk) 13:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank God then! Judd Bagley is not here and the statement "Weiss has become a sharp critic of CEO Patrick Byrne and his campaign against naked short selling, which led to one of Byrne's employee's to create a critical site on Weiss himself" can be sourced to NYT and WSJ among others. And what's more, this isnt' even really negative against Weiss, just explaining where he has focused his criticism on in a very public manner. BLP does not prevent the adding of verifiable and relevant information that is important to a person's notability (both NYT and WSJ describe Weiss specifically as a known critic). Joshdboz (talk) 13:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

How much do you know about Bagley? His first reaction to anything short of uncritical adoration is to start attacking people; this is relevant to Bagley but not to the people he attacks. Guy (Help!) 13:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Bagles is only relevant in the creation of a critical website which directly concerns the subject of this article and which was in part a reaction to the criticisms Weiss was making. I would appreciate if you helped find a compromise solution instead of making irrelevant comments on Bagley's character. Joshdboz (talk) 13:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

We don't "compromise" between WP:BLP and perpetuating a harassment meme. Guy (Help!) 13:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You're sure doing a lot to perpetuate the meme that any criticism of how we are handling this article is part of a "harassment meme". *Dan T.* (talk) 14:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The only evidence i can give is circumstancial.that is from reliable sources.All I can give u on that controversy is his own comments in the forbes article already linked here.And the details of Wal-mart deal in India reported in many reputed news organizations,although since you don't consider NYtimes reputable I somehow doubt that.The factual inaccuracies of his comments are numerous .Wal-mart is only providing back-end support to Bharti which is going to control and own the major part of the business his comments that Indians are going to go out of jobs and starve isn't appreciated here in india.Since he is after all a minor celebrity the print media doesn't mention all this ,and any online news site i link to u ( and i can provide numerous )you would not consider reliable as it is regional and you havn't even heard of it before.MY expert opinion, as a citizen of India, and because of my following of the entire Wal-Mart deal quite throughly means nothing to you.I perfectly understand that none of this is insert able in the article i merely pointed it out as supporting evidence for the fact that he is a controversial figure for more than one reason.Manquer (talk) 13:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, unless and until some reliable source possibles a specific criticism of Weiss's article, we can't mention it as a controversy. Indian news sources will be fine if they are reliable sources. Online only sources may be fine provided they have good editorial direction, fact checking and are sufficient noteable. (A good hint will be if there is an article about them on wikipedia). We can't add criticism just because you feel something is controversy, not even if you have pointed out flaws in his article (that's OR) we need a source that actually criticises Weiss's article Nil Einne (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I admit that i can't quote any news article actually mentioning gary's comments as controversial,there are more popular people who have made newsworthy controversial comments on the subject No news organization will choose to report about his comments given their alternatives .However i can show u many comments to that article which has been sourced on the regional websites which proves atleast i m not the only person objecting to his views on the matter. I repeat I m not requesting this issue to be posted as a part of the article.

I mentioned the entire story for two reasons ONE as a "investigative person" Gary's credibility is in question as much of his comments on this particular subject are false and made in ignorance of the actual facts for which i can give reliable evidence.TWO gary weiss is controversial person in more than issue this claim is to clear the false preconception that only the overstock issue is the reason for his controversial image.Manquer (talk) 14:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Having admins step in to shut down all further discussion will really do a lot to quash the pernicious meme that Misplaced Pages is censored in this area, won't it? *Dan T.* (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if one is daft or naive enough to swallow the propaganda of Judd Bagley. BLPs are frozen every day, and George Soros was quite recently for a long time on a far less troublesome BLP issue, involving RS statements against this major public figure by another major public figure (Bill O'Reilly). Misplaced Pages is under no obligation to cater to the whims of its critics, particularly the paid corporate shills.--Samiharris (talk) 15:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You and your friends playing the "Bagley card" all the time got old a long time ago. It is a logical fallacy to claim that Bagley's bad actions, or who he is paid by, or what campaigns he's engaging in, prove in any way that the substance of criticisms of Weiss are false. Reportedly, Galileo was an obnoxious cuss, and was engaged in a smear campaign against the Catholic Church; nevertheless, he was right that the Earth went around the Sun instead of the other way around. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Another spectacularly bad analogy, Dan. we have hundreds of years of historical context and a whole world of physics to rely on there, whereas what we have to rely on for Bagley's assertions are: Bagley, Bagley, and some people who believed Bagley. I do not think it does your credibility much good to come here, as a well-known Misplaced Pages Review member, supporting Bagley, another Misplaced Pages Review member. What Bagley says about anybody is relevant to Bagley but not provably relevant to the targets of his harassment. Guy (Help!) 15:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Dan, it is not our place to "prove Bagley true or false." It is our place to prevent Misplaced Pages from being a forum for his smears. The fact that he is engaged in a smear campaign against critics of Misplaced Pages is a matter of public record and is dutifully recorded in the Overstock.com article. As Misplaced Pages editors, we have an obligation to follow BLP strictly, and to exercise vigilance against introduction of negative and controversial material from dubious sources, i.e. Bagley. We also have an obligation to view with particular concern negative material pushed in BLPs by editors with an axe to grind or agenda. In this article both kinds of trouble have been in abundance. Most recently we have a spate of new editors pushing the Bagley agenda, whipped into a frenzy by a sensational article inspired by Bagley.--Samiharris (talk) 15:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It would do you and this discussion good, I would think, if you'd try to refrain from ad hominem smears while denouncing "smear campaigns". *Dan T.* (talk) 15:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It's impossible to talk about Judd Bagley in this context without describing his smear campaign. If you can figure out a more polite way of referring to his smear campaign while still being accurate, please let me know. This particular article is, after all, the No. 1 target of his smear campaign. What euphemism would you suggest that I use?--Samiharris (talk) 15:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I was actually responding to JzG, who never seems to miss a chance to point out my affiliation with a site he dislikes, which is not only a violation of WP:NPA (where it says not to use people's associations, mainstream or extreme, to discredit their views), but is completely irrelevant to the truth or falsity of what I say. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition to Recent Career section (please edit)

"Weiss has become a sharp critic on his blog of Overstock.com CEO Patrick M. Byrne and his opposition to short selling; subsequently an anonymous and critical website of Weiss and other opponents was created, later found to be authored by Overstock.com's director for social media."

Joshdboz (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Reject. The blog does not support the text as stated, and the NYT piece is more about overstock than Bagley (also it contains some errors, indicating less than careful fact-checking). Guy (Help!) 13:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy could you please provide with the evidence that the new york times article is factually inaccurate ? your grounds for rejecting the request yet again as has no basis.Please give evidence if you are claiming that a reputed newspaper is making factual inaccurate statementsManquer (talk) 13:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I said it includes factual inaccuracy - check, for example, the link to Misplaced Pages. Guy (Help!) 15:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

His blog is not notable, and cannot be referenced except as a source for himself. The suggested addition is not accurate, because the website attacks critics of Weiss and not just him and lastly it is still falls afoul of BLP and, in particular, UNDUE. Again, this identical aspect has been discussed before, and disposed of for that reason. Please go back to the archives and stop raising issues that have been previously discussed and disposed of.--Samiharris (talk) 13:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Good, if Weiss's blog can only be sourced for himself perhaps we should include the comments: "More on the continuing adventures of Overstock.com CEO Patrick Byrne, whose paranoid fantasies and lengthy, self-incriminating message board rants are a fascinating spectacle. His increasingly surreal statements brought back fond memories of Baghdad Bob, the famously delusional Iraqi information minister." Thank you for your correction to the nature of Bagley's site, I have adjusted the proposed addition. Joshdboz (talk) 13:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, blog comments on third parties cannot be used. You really need to read the relevant policies. --Samiharris (talk) 13:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. I am not actually suggesting these comments be added to describe Byrne, but this is evidence of Weiss's reputation as a critic. Also I was trying to deal with your concerns about undue weight by trimming this down an placing it in the career section. Joshdboz (talk) 13:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Samiharris is right, the blog shouldn't be used as a reference. But, JzG is wrong, the NYTimes article can be used as a source. Do you think that that NYTimes reporter would be interested in knowing that a Misplaced Pages admin called him a liar and/or incompetent? Cla68 (talk) 13:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The New York Times article can and is used as a source where it belongs, here. As you know, its usage in this article was twice (or is it three times?) raised by you in the past and each time was shot down, the last time with your being blocked as an exclamation point.--Samiharris (talk) 14:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That does not mean that the discussion is to be halted indefinitely. I must admit I have never seen an editor so tenaciously fight the addition of verifiable information from a reputable news source, whether now or in the archives. Joshdboz (talk) 14:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

No, but repetitive discussion of identical, multiply resolved points wastes the time of all concerned and is disruptive. The New York Times article has been discussed over and over and over again. Twice its introduction was pushed by a now-banned sock-meatpuppet of Bagley. This concerted attempt to manipulate Misplaced Pages is indeed wearisome, is indeed something that needs to be tenaciously fought, and continuing this struggle on this identical point is in my view not constructive.--Samiharris (talk) 15:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Just for the recond, I never intended to use his blog as a reference, I was merely responding to Guy's comments that "the blog does not support the text as stated" and was trying to be clever after Samiharris said that it could be used "as a source for himself." Joshdboz (talk) 13:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In that case I'd suggest, in as friendly a way possible, that you not "try to be clever." It's just a tad disruptive, as it has me and others responding to a point that you intended to be sarcastic or in jest.--Samiharris (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the blog only being proposed as a reference for the fact that Weiss is engaging in such criticism, not for the specific criticisms themselves, anyway? *Dan T.* (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but at this point it wouldn't be necessary getting into that debate since the NYT describes what he is doing on his blog. Joshdboz (talk) 14:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There's no independent source for the significance of this, the only sources are in respect of overstock, not Weiss. WP:UNDUE applies, attempts by Bagley to persuade people otherwise notwithstanding. Guy (Help!) 15:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP says that if "criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article." Bagley is a tiny minority of the universe, last I checked.--Samiharris (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed a comment from earlier today that repeated some material in antisocialmedia.net. BLP specifically states that "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research)" and goes on to state in italics for emphasis: "These principles apply to biographical material about living persons found anywhere in Misplaced Pages, including user and talk pages." Editors, particularly those lured to this talk page from the Register piece, are urged to familiarize themselves with WP:BLP, which is enforced strictly.--Samiharris (talk) 16:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor change request

WAS:

editor in chief

NOW:

editor-in-chief

Djg2006 (talk) 16:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Mitchell, Dan. "Flames Flare Over Naked Shorts", The New York Times, January 20, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
2. Metz, Cade. "Misplaced Pages black helicopters circle Utah's Traverse Mountain", The Register, December 6, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
3. "Wall Street, Don't Let Customers Read This Book": Susan Antilla, Bloomberg.com
4. Mitchell, Dan. "Flames Flare Over Naked Shorts", The New York Times, January 20, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
5. Metz, Cade. "Misplaced Pages black helicopters circle Utah's Traverse Mountain", The Register, December 6, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.

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