Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:32, 12 December 2007

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

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Spoken Misplaced Pages

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Misplaced Pages

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Evolution

if there ever was a biased article, that one was it. We should work on that. The accepted truth isn't the only one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.161.138.241 (talk) 21:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a "tiny minority?"

I am involved in a debate as to whether a criticism-- one published as an op-ed in two generally notable publications (The Jerusalem Post and The American Spectator)-- deserves mention in a proposed criticism section for a BLP. (see Gayatri Spivak) Other editors have complained that the criticism has not received serious attention in academic circles, and I'm sure they're right. However, I think all criticism in the public sphere is relevant to a person's notability, but I'm not sure where the "tiny minority" threshold for inclusion/non-inclusion is to be drawn. Would double-publication of the criticism as an op-ed alone be enough to bring it out of the tiny minority category? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFace (talk • contribs) 12:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like it would. But I don't know the particulars. TimidGuy 19:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Another case

Should sources acknowledged as extremists be given space on articles, even though they are popular?

For example, on the article Judaism, should The Protocols of the Elders of Zion be given some space, possibly under the header "Criticism of Judaism"? The publication is widely acknowledged as extremist and antisemitic.

Another example: on the article Islam, should The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion be given some space, possibly under the header "Criticism of Islam"? The publication and the author are acknowledged as extremist and Islamophobic.Bless sins 20:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference: the Protocols are clearly proven to be a forgery, while the Islamocritical book mentioned is an utterance of an opinion. Also, the characterisation of the author is controversial so this should not be a basis for exclusion. Str1977 21:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

One may replace The Protocols of the Elders of Zion with another book acknowledged as antisemitic. Secondly there are a lot of scholars who believe that "The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion" is also false, not to mention an example of hate-speech. Also, please note that "threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth". Thus we care more about verifiability than the truth here.Bless sins 01:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, are you seriously suggesting that wikipedia should state that Islam is considered to be "the World's Most Intolerant Religion"?Bless sins 01:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You are not comprehending what "forgery" and "false" means. The Protocols are proven to have been forgered by a Russian secret agent to discredit the Jews. Are you suggesting that Mr Spencer made anything of what he writes up. I am granting you that he has an unfavourable opinion on Islam but that's not quite the same. "Hate speech" is anyway a questionable concept. "Not truth but verifiability" is probably the most abused sentence here on WP. Yes, truth does matter. But even though, Spencer's book is clearly verifiable. I do not care much for that book but your attempts to remove anything that's critical of Islam is scandalous. Str1977 10:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

SO you are saying that Mr. Spencer's book is true? Otherwise I don't understand your argument.Bless sins 04:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying anything about Spencer's book beyond what I wrote: he didn't make things up. Your reply is ample evidence of your inability to separate his POV from his editing. And that is the one that lectured me about how "truth" was unimportant. Str1977 09:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Spencer's book is presumably truly his own book. The Protocols were held up to be something they were NOT. They were held up as a secret cabal document, and this was later roundly discredited. Epthorn (talk) 12:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Creation Myth vs. Origin Belief

Currently, what I would consider to be the Creation Myth article, has the name "Origin Belief"

It's my understanding that one is actually used in conversation and academic channels, while the other is a semantic treatment of the term. A quick google search will reveal which term is more commonly used.

People who hold supernatural beliefs about the origins of the world are offended by the term "myth" which they believe denotes "false". But the dictionary definition of "myth" does not carry this connotation, nor does the term when used academically. To be fair, I think the word does sometimes carry this connotation in colloquial speech.

On the other hand, anyone searching for the article is going to be looking for "Creation Myth" not "Origin Belief". This is because "Origin Belief" is an invented term designed to assuage people's concern over the word "myth".

My first instinct is that it should be reverted to "Creation Myth" as any encyclopedia should be a collection of facts, and not some sort of blueprint for a more PC world. However, upon reading this article, it's unclear to me whether this is the desire of wikipedia or not.

Basically I'm looking for guidance here. I will ultimately defer to the conventions of wikipedia, even if I disagree with them.

66.152.196.34 19:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"It should be _reverted_" to the name that it had _when_? When did the article first start to have its current name?

The 16:49, 8 Apr 2005 post on the article's talk page indicates that the article was renamed in some way around that time. Was it changed from "Creation Myth" then? If so, reverting it at this point seems late to me because it appears that:

• 1. There was discussion about this issue on the talk page before the renaming happened.
• 2. Others haven't reverted it the 2+ years since it was given the current name.
• 3. The 15:31, 30 October 2007 post on the article's talk page hasn't rallied support for renaming the article.

And Creation myth redirects there. --Ac44ck (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Attempts to undermine this policy with incompatible Guidelines

I just noticed in a relatively new guideline the phrase "Misplaced Pages self-identifies primarily with mainstream opinion".

I cannot interpret this as anything else but an attempt to undermine (or re-negotiate) our NPOV policy, according to which Misplaced Pages must not be biased towards any party. "Mainstream" (or majority) opinion is fairly given most space; it is not permitted to let Misplaced Pages be transformed into a propaganda outlet of majority opinion.

Evidently, Misplaced Pages must be actively protected from being hijacked by the opinion of any party. What shall we do about it?

Harald88 (talk) 12:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the wording, found in Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories is questionable. Mainstream doesn't define NPOV, and in fact it often is far from NPOV. This doesn't mean I'm all for WP:SPOV or any other strict notion of what constitutes NPOV, but the word mainstream unfortunately carries connotations of e.g. underinformed masses, of emotional rather than educated judgment. To jump directly to Godwin's law: Mainstream opinion in the Third Reich was that the white race is superior. If Misplaced Pages had existed at that time in Germany, would that mainstream opinion be NPOV then? Likewise, can mass media generally be considered to be unbiased just because they are the mainstream media? We should however take this to Misplaced Pages talk:Fringe theories.|dorftrottel |humor me 14:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You could try [[

Indeed I do intend to correct that sentence at that place. However, I first brought it up here by way of bad example. It appears that there is a natural push against WP:NPOV simply by the law of majority opinion; and I vaguely think to remember that one of the founders has written about the constant fight against such forces that try to take over.

To use your example (thanks): Indeed, had the Third Reich taken world power, Misplaced Pages would have had to give much space to the opinion that the white race is superior and the Jews "Untermenschen". At the same time, there would have been an intense struggle (even risking death) by some editors who try to give alternative opinions appropriate weight. Usually it's much less dramatical, but on many topics Misplaced Pages is no dou¨bt under attack by people who try to suppress minority opinions in any possible way.

At one point in time there has been an uncontrolled growth of crank articles. I have the impression that this has been properly dealt with, in part thanks to the effectiveness of majority opinion. Thus that was more of an annoyance; the suppresion of notable minority opinions is a much greater danger for NPOV, and, with that, Misplaced Pages itself.

Perhaps this needs to be discussed at an even higher level, such as the Misplaced Pages Signpost, but I don't know where. I was hoping that someone of the more regular editors of NPOV has an idea.

Harald88 (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You could try the WikiEN-l mailing list, or the village pump for policy proposals, but don't get upset if the responses are not overwhelmingly welcoming. WP has a huge inertia, and few are willing to risk any part of the so-so working status quo. |dorftrottel |humor me 17:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

This issue is a highly significant bottleneck to the quality of Misplaced Pages. I suggest the NPOV policy has a serious flaw since it can't cope with the implications mentioned here. Please give your opinion here:One view will never be nuetral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV Rokus01 (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

"Criticism" and its legitimacy

I have two questions:

• First, does the term criticism imply legitimacy? For example, the Criticism of Islam article says "Islam is criticised for not being moral". Does this mean that indeed Islam is not moral, and critics are simply making the observation? Or does it mean that according to the critics, Islam is not moral?
• Secondly, is it neutral to say that a particular religion is a "false religion" or an "immoral religion". Or is it neutral for wikipedia to portray an opinion that accuses a religion of being "false" as factual and accurate?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.Bless sins (talk) 18:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

While notable criticism definitely belongs in religion articles, some care regarding neutral terminology and portrayal is needed. A good approach would be simply to attribute the criticism directly to the critics in an unambiguous way, e.g. "Critics such as claim that 'Islam is immoral' ". Although direct quotes of a short phrase might be the best way to clarify that this is not Misplaced Pages's opinion, a paraphrase is also possible as long as any critical claim is ] to identified critics and is not made in Misplaced Pages's narrative voice. Misplaced Pages cannot portray any opinion on religous matters -- good or bad, true or false, moral or immoral -- as factual and accurate. The only relevant facts are whether an opinion is notable ("significant" per the WP:NPOV policy), accurately described and attributed, and whether it is given appropriate weight. These are the facts to be sourced. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Sneaky land claims

I've noticed that some articles refer to "the ancestral fatherland of the XXX nation" or similar phrases, sometimes in the article title. This tends to suggest ownership by the XXX ethnic group. I can't find any clear policy against this. Fourtildas (talk) 07:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOPOV shortcut only adds to confusion

I would like to change the name of the default shortcut here to WP:YESPOV. The current shortcut goes to a section that explains that the idea of "no pov" is incorrect. As so many editors seem so confused by this concept to begin with, I don't think putting forth WP:NOPOV as a "nickname" helps matters. -- Kendrick7 19:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and made the change. -- Kendrick7 22:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Neutrality

How about renaming this page to Misplaced Pages:Neutrality (which already links here) and extending it with badly needed aspects on issues of relative coverage other than just the issue of POV pushing, which this policy page traditionally gives far too much attention? I think most non-neutrality in articles is due not to a POV mindset, but to a rather innocuous ignorance on many different aspects of article writing and layout.

Also, I'd welcome something on the imo hugely problematic POV issue of criticism sections. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:18, November 25, 2007

Nevermind. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:27, November 25, 2007

Good summary quote

I found this in Robert Nozick's Philosophical Explanations:

"If a person is wondering whether or not to believe p, can't we offer him reason to believe it as help?" Yes, if your help is neutral. But do you also offer reasons for not believing p? Do you pursue with further reasons for p if the first fail to convince?

Maybe it could be added somewhere in WP:NPOV? — BRIAN0918 • 2007-11-26 13:57Z

stopped

why am i getting in trouble when im trying to make my own article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dresendiz (talk • contribs) 04:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Demons cause disease

"Europeans in the Middle Ages "knew" that demons caused diseases" Is there a source for this? :) TrickyApron (talk) 10:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

When referencing distorts NPOV

I ran into an interesting issue while looking over Anti-Americanism and the "Anti-Americanism in Australia" subsection. It's pretty mediocre so I went to work trying to to draft a "balanced" overview, and I began reference hunting.

But the references providing "evidence of anti-americanism" vastly outnumber the references indicating that it really isn't a major issue. I have endless media reports of protests at visiting US diplomats, numerous major media editorials which criticise individual American decisions and even the Deputy Prime Minister making a sweeping statement in 2005 that "there is a very strong anti-American feeling in Australia" (no I'm not kidding - read it here). I even have a top 20 song by Midnight Oil called "US Forces" which opens with the lyric US Forces give the nod, it's a setback for your country. (Which I confess to singing along with as a teenager).

So the majority of references I can find make it appear that anti-Americanism is utterly rabid here and that we are one step away from gunning down American tourists in the streets,. But as someone living here, I can assure you this simply isn't true. Unfortunately the references that say "although we make snide remarks about Americans every now and then, we basically don't mind them" just don't seem to be out there. It's almost like our media and academia are implying "we all know this, so no-one really needs to says it".

Now my comment here isn't about addressing this specific situation as such, and I'm not asking for anyone to find the references that prove me wrong (although I'll gladly accept them). But I'm curious as to whether there are other "squeaky wheel" type situations where the very act of referencing seems to create POV distortions, and how the community has dealt with them. Manning 10:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Re. the concrete issue: "Howard, een trouwe bondgenoot van de Verenigde Staten, is al 11 jaar aan de macht in Australië." (my translation of this sentence from a VRT new bulletin: "Howard, a faithful ally of the United States, has been in power for eleven years in Australia"). Even if we, simplistic Belgians, can find out that a pro-American leader of a government has been in power for 11 years in Australia (well, he scored with the pro-American view in previous elections didn't he? - arguably something had changed in the period after the last "victorious" election...), it shouldn't be too difficult to find an English speaking political analyst that comes to that conclusion, isn't it?

Re. general issue: I wondered about this in the past (most recently when working on the Sejny article: the most contested sentence of that article uses five references - the article currently has a total of seven references), but somehow got convinced there isn't a real problem. As with the Australian example above: maybe the sources you're looking for are just so big you don't see them, or never considered using them. Also, a contention needing many references usually needs to start with something in the vein of according to some sources ("Depending on source,..." in the Sejny case), which automatically, virtually for any reader, has the look and feel of a less certain issue (implying: NPOV isn't distorted). And FYI (regarding the Sejny debate leading to the 5-reference sentence), one of the few cases here at Misplaced Pages where a Polish-Lithuanian disagreement was settled amicably (compare previous tensions resulting in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus#Remedies): what I want to say is that this time both the Lithuanian and Polish contributors involved (and both groups were involved) could settle for the 5-references sentence after some edgy debate. I even received a nice invitation afterwards .

Hope this helps --Francis Schonken 12:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Views

I changed a wording of "...views which are in the extreme minority do not belong in Misplaced Pages at all" because I found a talk page comment where someone stated that in an article which was about a minority view that view doesn't need to be presented because it's a minority view, and that sounded absurd. I wasn't sure if I should edit this policy with my main account or this, but because I found that talk page related to an arbitration case which I'm uninvolved but made a statement I felt I should use the same account. I have a legitimate main account and I can tell it to someone who isn't involved with that arbitration. I certainly did not plan to get into policy editing with this account. :-) I'm still hoping that I could keep my main account out of these controversies, even though I wanted to make that brief note on an arbitration case and found this a little bit unclear part on this policy. As I understand this is that if a minority view is so extreme that it doesn't even have an article, then it's not presented anywhere. Calejenden 16:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Because this page is so clear about these things in general maybe that one sentence gets understood right here. There's no problem that views which are so extreme that there's no article about them or people advocating them are presented nowhere. And what I tried to add, the same thing is on the page elsewhere. I found a sentence about another matter which I'll comment, it was written 4 July 2007 as a part of a big change which was discussed on the talk page, but I didn't see discussion of that sentence. "A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is." Link. Many sources assume that the reader has basic information, and often a size of some group would have to be found from another source. I'm leaving this message here hoping that someone who has been developing the wordings of the policy gets to this later. Calejenden 16:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Examples - in DRASTIC need of an update

I surfed on in to the NPOV page to look up a specific detail and randomly noticed the link to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Examples. You can imagine my enormous surprise at finding that this page is essentially unchanged since the day I first posted it back in October 2001. (see the version at Nostalgia).

While I am deeply flattered that something I wrote so long ago is still being referenced, it is fair to say our collective perspective is (ahem) "a tad more sophisticated now". We should either archive it as historical, or subject it to a complete re-write. Manning 13:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Noticeboard proposal

A proposal concerning the creation of a new Admin noticeboard has developed into the suggestion/proposal to create Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. See Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)#Proposed new Admin noticeboard. Aecis 23:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Weight of sources for "factual" statements in Misplaced Pages

(Reposting here, was originally on Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources by mistake, and I was directed here instead)

Hi, I'm sure this will be a Misplaced Pages 101 question, but please review for me? On Talk:Waterboarding, a rather spirited debate is raging for whether it is acceptable to say essentially, "Waterboarding is torture" as a statement. It had gone in quite a few circles, and then I finally asked people to simply list all the sources that say it isn't torture, versus those that say it is.

We got this as a result.

A large variety of sources and notable opinions that indicate, yes, it's torture, and on the other side, two pundits. One basically saying, "Kick it back to the legislature to decide," which is largely irrelevant, as the United States legislature mentioned in her source of course doesn't decide this globally, and the other pundit simply saying he doesn't think it's torture. My take is that, based on the overwhelming weight of opinion and sourced information, we can only go with what we have at this time: Waterboarding is a form of torture, and we can mention in a subsection or later that some may disagree. As apparently only one sourced person disagrees, I wouldn't mention it in the lead, but down below in the text/discussion of waterboarding and the United States.

Am I analyzing this correctly? Lawrence Cohen 19:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

One view will never be neutral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV?

The NPOV policy was never meant to cope with the limits of interpretation. To start with, what could be neutral to any point of view?

A well known strategy of experienced POV pushers is to push out all views they oppose to from an article, on the pretext that those other views are not significant enough. These so-called "insignificant" views easily include published scholarly points of view. Somehow this wrong-doers are free to present those other views as contradicting some kind of "mainstream" popular view, by law of nature identified as "neutral". However, the neutrality of such a "neutral" point of view is irreconcilable to the personal point of view of those that seek to give WP:UNDUE attention to their own opinion, maybe even at the cost of criticism and the results of other investigations.

All of this is possible for those that intent to abuse NPOV policy at the limits of its applicability. Sure, theoretically some kind of "neutrality" could (and should) be achieved by verifiability and objectivity: however, authority and general acceptance will rarely contribute to such a neutrality, not even being a scholarly point of view, and certainly never as a rule of thumb. How "neutral" was the once generally accepted autocratic dogma of the earth being flat? So, if "neutrality" of any point of view is disputable by definition, why not better stop the abuse of NPOV by hard to dethrone cabals and drop NPOV policy altogether. To make an article truely neutral and encyclopedical, Misplaced Pages should rather adhere to a policy of Multiple Points Of View (MPOV) instead. Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with your assessment of what many POV-pushers' tactics are - it amounts to ostracisation tactics being used to endorse one pet hypotheses and pretend all others don't exist or don't count, and I have seen this too many times. But surely there are already more effective ways to combat this kind of pov-pushing than changing the name of the NPOV policy; since the policy already requires MPOV in effect, it would be nothing more than a ceremonial and probably highly contentious (thus impractical) name change. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In defense of MPOV I argue that POV pushers would have a hard time to push out significant scholarly points of views by abusing MPOV policy. Yes, to replace the misnomer of one of the three very pillars of WP policy by a better equivalent could be cumbersome. Still, anything that would contribute to balance, quality and above all, peace, would be worth some consideration - no matter how symbolic. Rokus01 (talk) 18:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As written now, it already demands multiple points of view adequately enough... Perhaps "MPOV" should be more fully described as a crucial pillar of NPOV, something that is within NPOV. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, please explain why you deem an official emphasis to multiple views contentious? Won't it be rather the contrary, that people will have to waist less time in WP:OR to advertise their personal point of view as the one and only that would be the "most neutral and significant"? Rokus01 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, I am in agreement with you! I think if MPOV were made a subsection of NPOV, it would satisfy your aims, then such pov pushers could be directed to the MPOV subsection of the NPOV page. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV is already MPOV. All editors and all sources are biased, the key to NPOV is to describe the POVs, rather than asserting them, as in, 'Expert A says X. Expert B says Y. Group C teaches Z.' The policy is clear on this. Some editors choose not to understand the policy, changing the policy won't make any difference to those editors. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't the wording of the policy, the problem is enforcement. Although NPOV is the core policy of WP, there seems to be much more enforcement of behavioral violations such as violations of WP:NPA, WP:3RR, etc. WP:ARBCOM avoids NPOV disputes, making excuses like:

• Decline. I believe this is fundamentally a content problem of the sort which we are notoriously bad at fixing... The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Decline. Agree it seems largely to be a content issue. - SimonP 14:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The result of this attitude towards enforcement of WP:NPOV is that a POV pusher can succeed as long as he is 'polite'. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Policy enforcement is in it's interpretation

Policy is a wonderful thing. Every CEO will tell you "ït is meant to be interpreted liberallÿ". If Neutral is supposed to be a policy, then all one can do is watch, shuffle and delete paper, and most bureaucrat do, in line with what they see as "policy".

E.g. This talk is is respnse to the deletion of an article, signed by Misplaced Pages's founder, for copyright violation by Hut 8.5. See deletion log 1 19:25, 8 December 2007 Hut 8.5 (Talk | contribs) deleted "Open Education Declaration" ‎ (copyvio of http://www.capetowndeclaration.org/front-page/read-the-declaration)

Yes, I know Misplaced Pages is soon going to be migrating to a Creative Commons license, but until that happens the text can't be included in Misplaced Pages. Even if that wasn't the case, the text would have been deleted through some other mechanism since it wasn't any kind of encyclopedia article and Misplaced Pages is not the place for any kind of campaigning, as I'm sure Jimmy Wales will know. Hut 8.5 21:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Hut,

Let me get this right. Even if, in the meantime, I get the guys at to put a link to the GNU Free Documentation License, the founder of Misplaced Pages doesn't have the right to put a document (article) he has signed, whose core aim it is to further the Foundation's aims, on the site he set up?--Simonfj (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If they license the text under the GFDL then it will not be deleted straight away as a copyright violation. However, Misplaced Pages is a neutral encyclopedia, and including text campaigning for anything is a violation of WP:SOAP, and this would likely result in the page being deleted in an articles for deletion discussion. Note that Misplaced Pages's policy of neutrality was strongly championed by Jimmy Wales, and I seriously doubt he is going to break it. There are other websites the Wikimedia Foundation can use to express support for the petition other than Misplaced Pages. Hut 8.5 21:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Now one can't blame Hut 8.5 for doing a good gatekeeping job. But let's consider if we want to let our founder break his own policy; or is this the kind of outcome he meant to encourage by the NPOV policy?--Simonfj (talk) 22:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Publishing the declaration is engaging in the debate, specifically forbidden by WP:NPOV. However, there is nothing at all preventing one from creating an article describing the debate, which is exactly what WP is intended for. 74s181 (talk) 03:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:POLICY dispute

The wording introduced by Cogden to WP:POLICY on October 1st, which was disputed at that time, but still remains in the policy, and has since been used by Cogden to push his changes to WP:NOR are currently under dispute. I suggest all interested editors join in on that discussion, since the wording is obviously meant to affect WP:NOR policy, but can also affect this policy. Dreadstar † 20:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)