Misplaced Pages

No, the key question is: Where do we go from here? Did I invent new rules: Let's agree to disagree about your behavior up to this point. Is deletion of other comments...?: I probably don't have enough information there to form an opinion as to whether or not it's allowed. But either way, it's probably not helpful, particularly when you're one of the parties involved in a vigorous discussion. Andrewa (talk) 02:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now started a new thread in the talk page of WP:TALK to help resolve the issue. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Andrewa is surely understating the case - it is positively unhelpful to everyone trying to follow a discussion in a talk page if one party to the discussion deletes another's comments. LeContexte 21:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Widom Larsen theory and "heavy" electrons

I dispute the presentation of the Widom Larsen theory as using conventional quantum mechanics. In mainstream physics, so-called heavy electrons appear in the theory of heavy electron superconductors. I believe (but I welcome expert guidance here) that the "heavy" electron is a calculational artifact, designed to express the dynamics of the collective motion of electrons. In some ways it is similar to the reduced_mass of classical dynamics. I do not believe that any mainstream physics publication has ever suggested that a single electron, the particle that would participate in Widom and Larsen's proposed reaction, ever gains mass. JohnAspinall 20:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream physics says that electrons gain mass when they become relativistic and in no other way ('electrons have no hair'), but that is not what is being proposed. I've removed the section, since it seems overly laudatory to something that is to all appearances just another hodge-podge of algebra and selective use of data. Michaelbusch 21:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right : the statement that WL theor is compatible with conventional quantum mechanics was not properly sourced. I removed it from the paragraph. Thanks for identifying this issue.Pcarbonn 08:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the entire section, for the reasons given. Please don't put it back without a complete re-write for NPOV and acceptance of the scientific consensus - and also please explain why this particular set of ideas is WP:N. Michaelbusch 16:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You are right. Please accept my apologies for responding too quickly. We should just mention this theory, with appropriate links. Pcarbonn 21:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV of article

Information and relevance of nuclear transmutations with unnatural isotope ratios have been suppressed in this article. There are other problems I will address over time. Ron Marshall

Please provide specific examples of suppression and please explain why 'nuclear transmutations with unnatural isotope ratios' is relevant to the article. When you have done this, the tag can be convincingly added. Michaelbusch 23:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

In October of 2006 the cold fusion article was trashed by self appointed censors of science in order to suppress information about transmutation and other positive evidence. The only references in the current article are "Although there appears to be evidence of anomalous transmutations and isotope shifts near the cathode surface in some experiments, cold fusion researchers generally consider that these anomalies are not the ash associated with the primary excess heat effect." and "To address the nuclear products issue, and because transmutations products have been reported, it has been suggested that fusion occurs between one or more deuterium and palladium, and is followed by a fission of the resulting nucleus." The first remark is misleading and the second is inadequate.

Many experimenters have found transmutations with unnatural isotope ratios since 1992. Usually the result produces several elements spread over the atomic weight scale. Some experiments show direct conversion from one element to another. The unnatural isotope ratio proves that the result cannot be caused by contamination. A transmutation is a nuclear reaction. Transmutations prove that nuclear reactions are happening in cold fusion experiments beyond a reasonable doubt. This is true whether or not transmutations are the primary source of heat. Ron Marshall 19:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Ron Marshall

Provide links to the edits showing suppression and your claimed 'self appointed censors of science', and citations for your statements above - and I'm removing the NPOV tag again because you need evidence. You may find it useful to examine WP:CABAL. Re. 'transmutations' - give cites for that too - although I deem your statements nonsensical at the moment, because the presence of radioactivity in an experiment in no way implies fusion. And sign your posts. Michaelbusch 19:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I will provide links, however a major part of the evidence is the state of the article at this point. This statement does not look logical to me "although I deem your statements nonsensical at the moment, because the presence of radioactivity in an experiment in no way implies fusion". Radioactivity could imply fusion. Whether or not deuterium fusion is going on is one question. Whether or not any nuclear reaction is going on is another question. When an element is changed to another element protons are added or removed from the nucleus. You change a nucleus and you have a nuclear reaction by definition. Changing an isotope means adding or removing neutrons, also a nuclear reaction. The new element could be radioactive when the old element was not. The new element could be not radioactive when the old element was radioactive. Both these cases have been observed. It has been the claim of skeptics from the beginning that no nuclear reactions are occurring in cold fusion experiments. The skeptics have been proven wrong in this case. No scientific case can be made for suppressing the evidence of nuclear transmutations or the conclusion this evidence points to. Ron Marshall (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The cold fusion article as of 06:09, 29 September 2006 is shown in the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cold_fusion&oldid=78453163 before it was trashed by ScienceApologist and others.

The nuclear transmutations section:

Nuclear Transmutations

Nuclear transmutations have been reported in many cold fusion experiments since 1992. These reactions (which may be a nuclear fusion or nuclear fission reaction) result in the transformation of a chemical element into another. If one accepts that nuclear transmutations are in fact observed in these experiments, he would have to accept that nuclear reactions take place in cold fusion experiments. He would also have to accept that an apparently enormous Coulomb barrier can be overcome, and that the released energy can be converted to heat.

Tadahiko Mizuno is a prominent nuclear transmutation experimenter, and was among the first to contribute several papers and a book on the subject.

Nuclear transmutation experiments have been reviewed by Dr. Miley., a recognized researcher in "Hot Fusion" for his contributions to Inertial electrostatic confinement. He reports that several dozen laboratories are studying these effects. Some experiments result in the creation of only a few elements, while others result in a wide variety of elements from the periodic table. Calcium, copper, zinc, and iron were the most commonly reported elements. Lanthanides were also found: this is significant since they are unlikely to enter as impurities. In addition, the isotopic ratios of the observed elements differ from their natural isotopic ratio or natural abundance. Many elements have multiple isotopes and the percentages of the different isotopes are constant on earth within one tenth of one percent. In general it requires gaseous diffusion, thermal diffusion, electromagnetic separation or other exotic processes of isotope separation or a nuclear reaction to change an element from its natural isotope ratio. The presence of an unnatural isotope ratio makes contamination an implausible explanation. Some experiments reported both transmutations and excess heat, but the correlation between the two effects has not been established. Radiations have also been reported. Miley also reviews possible theories to explain these observations. Ron Marshall (talk) 03:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

So far the clearest evidence for transmutation has come from an experiment made by Iwamura and associates, and published in 2002 in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics (one of the top physics journals in Japan). Instead of using electrolysis, they forced deuterium gas to permeate through a thin layer of caesium (also known as cesium) deposited on calcium oxide and palladium, while periodically analyzing the nature of the surface through X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. As the deuterium gas permeated over a period of a week, the amount of caesium progressively decreased while the amount of praseodymium increased, so that caesium appeared to be transmuted into praseodymium. When caesium was replaced by strontium, it was transmuted into molybdenum with anomalous isotopic composition. In both cases this represents an addition of four deuterium nuclei to the original element. They have produced these results six times, and reproducibility was good. The energy released by these transmutations was too low to be observed as heat. No gamma rays were observed. When the calcium oxide was removed or when the deuterium gas was replaced by hydrogen, no transmutation was observed. The authors analyzed, and then rejected, the possibility to explain these various observations by contaminations or migration of impurities from the palladium interior. The experiment was replicated by researchers from Osaka University using Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry to analyze the nature of the surface (the Pd complex samples were provided by Iwamura).

In later similar experiments by Iwamura Barium 138 was transmuted to Samarium 150 and Barium 137 was transmuted into Samarium 149. The Barium 138 experiment used a natural isotope ratio of Barium. The Barium 137 experiment used a Barium 137 enriched isotope ratio. These transmutations represent an addition of six deuterium nuclei.

While recognizing the quality of the experiment, a 2004 DOE panelist said that, from a nuclear physics perspective, such conclusions of transmutations are "not to be believed". Fusing 2 deuterons is difficult enough; merging four deuterons with a heavy nucleus such as Palladium is not to be believed, especially when no evidence is presented for any nuclear products with intermediate atomic mass such as Yttrium, Zirconium, and Niobium. The panelist suggested that the observation could be explained by the migration of the anomalous elements from the interior of the Palladium.

Cold fusion researchers responded that such migration is not possible:

1. Deuterium atoms, flowing from the surface to the interior, would cause diffusion of the anomalous element away from the surface, not toward the surface.
2. Mass spectroscopy done at various depths shows that the anomalous element was not present in the palladium.
3. The element that was originally on the surface disappears at the same rate as the anomalous element appears.
4. The isotopes of the anomalous element are unnatural, and the isotope shifts are exactly what are expected should the missing element transmute into the new element

They say that, since the initial element disappears, the "migration explanation" would imply that the element applied to the surface migrates toward the interior, while the anomalous element migrates in the opposite direction toward the surface. This would violate as many expected behaviors as does cold fusion but in a different field of science: therefore, the Iwamura results justify additional research to understand what's happening. They also said such explanations are mere hand waving, and that this kind of reasoning is typical of most reviews.

Bush and Eagleton have reported the appearance of radioactive isotopes with an average half-life of 3.8 days in electrolytic cells, an observation that is difficult to explain by contamination or migration.

Attempts to find at least partial theoretical explanations are being made by Takahashi and others. One proposal by Takahashi to explain the wide range of elements generated is that fission of palladium is initiated by high energy photons, and suggests potential applications in the treatment of nuclear wastes by transmutation.

The current article should contain a summary on nuclear transmutations in the introduction and a section on nuclear transmutations. Ron Marshall (talk) 04:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference for the Mitchell Swartz theory

We need a cite-able reference for the Mitchell Swartz theory. The reference given is to a 1955 Phys Rev article. JohnAspinall 15:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Cold fusion theorizing

There are a lot of problems with the following text:

Cold fusion theoreticians have thus proposed explanations of the reported observations based on other mechanisms than plain D-D fusion.

To address the Coulomb barrier issue, some researchers propose that nuclei absorb neutrons, not deuterons; because neutrons have no charge, they are not affected by the Coulomb barrier. Widon and Larsen propose that heavy electrons react with protons to create neutrons. John C. Fisher proposes a theory based on hypothetical polyneutrons. Mills proposes a theory based on hydrino, which assumes that the electron in a hydrogen atom can reach an energy level below the ground state permitted by quantum mechanics. These theories are contrary to conventional physics.

These theories are not only "contrary" to conventional physics: there are observations available which show them to be incorrect. In particular, the idea that a neutron with its extremely short lifetime can be involved in low-density fusion at low temperatures is easy to refute with a back of the envelope calculation where you take the fusion cross-section as roughly that of the nucleus, multiplied by the density of the material (assuming it to be all neutrons and nuclei) and multiplying that by the velocity of the particles (assuming roughly that v is on the order of kT/m) doing this yields about one contact per 10 seconds which is much larger than the hundreds of seconds that neutrons can survive. Polyneutrons have zero mainstream support and energy levels below ground is patent pseudoscience. Why are we including such garbage in the article?

To address the nuclear products issue, and because transmutations products have been reported, it has been suggested that fusion occurs between one or more deuterium and palladium, and is followed by a fission of the resulting nucleus. The observed heat is difficult to reconcile with the observed transmuted products though. Others propose multi-body interactions: the following reaction, if proven to exist, would not generate gamma rays: D+D+D+D -> Be -> 2 He. However, in order to offer an explanation of the absence of gamma rays, a theory would also have to propose a mechanism that would suppress the more probable 2-deuteron reaction. Mitchell Swartz and others have theorized that the lower angular momentum of less energetic, cooler deuterons might affect the initial conditions required and the branching ratios of fusion reactions.

This paragraph is at least slightly more plausible, but still suffers from presentation of ideas that are really far out there without proper contextualization.

To address the conversion to heat issue, researchers have proposed a Mossbauer-like effect: in the Mossbauer effect, the recoil energy of a nuclear transition is absorbed by the crystal lattice as a whole, rather than by a single atom. However, the energy involved must be less than that of a phonon, on the order of 30 keV (50% chance of phonon excitation), compared with 23 MeV in nuclear fusion.

The only source for this is from Infinte Energy magazine (not a reliable source). I suggest removing the entire speculative paragraph as it represents original research.

In fact, all these paragraphs are very close to original research and I have therefore removed them from the article.

ScienceApologist 20:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Apologist, I concur with this removal - it seems we have a problem with some editors blindly accepting marginal data, followed by scrambling to fit that data with one particular interpretation. Michaelbusch 20:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but it looks like some of the good (peer reviewed) suggestions were removed and the pseudo science ones were left in. Look at this list from a month ago. That is more acceptable, minus a few offending bullet points, is it not? MigFP 20:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

That list is full of nonsense, and you will find my detailed analysis of many individual cases here on this talk page. JohnAspinall (talk) 15:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Based on a quick reading of the article, I've flagged it as needing further cleanup. I'm afraid cold-fusion enthusiasts have been having far too much fun here, and the scientific and logical accuracy of the article has suffered greatly. As examples, Apologist's large removal, and the paragraph I just removed - which claimed that an electrolysis patent was related to cold fusion. Michaelbusch (talk) 21:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This site describes a book on heavy electrons http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/EngineeringTechnology/MaterialsScience/?view=usa&ci=019851767X Ron Marshall (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

And quoting (with my emphasis) from the very link you provide: "characterized by a large effective mass", which is exactly the point I was making above. JohnAspinall (talk) 20:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

'Cold fusion' patent

The article contained a sentence 'the US Patent Office has approved a patent relating to cold fusion'. The patent cited is about an improved electrolysis device. It is not related to cold fusion, and so I have removed the reference. User:Pcarbonn has disputed this based on his reading of the patent (here). While the patent description references various cold fusion articles, the term 'fusion' occurs nowhere in the patent itself, which refers only to electrolysis. Claiming that this is the Patent Office approving something related to cold fusion is like saying that patenting a better magnetic alloy is related to perpetual motion. Michaelbusch (talk) 22:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You may think so, but that is not what PhysicsWeb and others are saying, as shown in the quote for this statement. So, please stop removing statements that are properly sourced and notable. Pcarbonn (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The text of the patent makes several references to cold fusion and if you read the entire patent you see that it is talking about a nickel hydrogen cold fusion device.

Sample text: "2. Description of the Related Art

Since 1989, scientists have demonstrated that liquid and gaseous electrolysis processes, though not yet completely understood, may be able to address future heating and electrical power requirements. For example, it has been readily demonstrated that electrolysis of many fluids results in heat generation that can be employed for other purposes, e.g., heating or generation of electricity.

A growing need has developed for compact, reliable, rugged and self-contained power sources providing heat and/or electricity in applications such as mobile vehicles, trailers, and equipment support units. There is a concurrent need for reliable, rugged and self-contained power sources providing heat and/or electricity for larger stationary power requirements. A sense of urgency for such new power sources has resulted from the realization that fossil fuels are in limited supply. It will be appreciated that nuclear fission power plants are not an acceptable alternative due to the dangers associated with uncontrolled releases of fission products and the enormous environmental and political problems associated with waste disposal.

Early attempts to develop the needed energy production apparatus focused on energy production using nuclear batteries. See, for example, U.S. Pat. Nos. 3,290,522; 3,409,820, and 4,835,433, which patents are incorporated herein by reference for all purposes. A radiation source was required, and radiation from this source which was absorbed in a potential barrier, e.g., p-n-p junction or metal-semiconductor contact, gave rise to electron-hole pairs that flowed as electricity due to the beta voltaic or Volta effect. Efficiencies on the order of about 25% were demonstrated.

In their now famous (or infamous) paper, Pons and Fleischmann reported excess heat in heavy water, palladium apparatus. See Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, "Electrochemically Induced Nuclear Fusion of Deuterium," submitted to the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry, Mar. 11, 1989. Due to the amount of heat produced per unit volume of cathode material, the energy measured in these types of apparatus has generally been considered to be from a nuclear process. Measurements of helium and tritium produced have given credibility to methods where heat is produced.

Recently, engineered devices based upon these results have been built with the objective of investigating the production of heat and by-products over extended periods of time. For example, U.S. Pat. Nos. 5,273,635 and 5,318,675, which patents are incorporated herein for all purposes, as well as Great Britain Patent No. 2 231 195, EP 0 568 118 and WO95/20816 have been granted for or described such devices, respectively. As a result, problems with the state of the art of methods of liquid and gaseous electrolysis have begun to be addressed by investigators with improved consistency. It will also be appreciated that problems associated with such systems include: hydrogen recombination with oxygen, with the potential for explosion; the relatively slow loading of hydrogen into cathodes; inefficient designs; and, the potential dangers of loaded, pressurized bulk material." Ron Marshall (talk) 23:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see the relevance of the patent office's granting such a patent, whatever the proper interpretation of the patent itself. All that shows is that a researcher patented his methods, nothing more. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The relevance is demonstrated, for example, by the fact that PhysicsWeb is talking about the cold fusion patents in one of his article: "In contrast to Pons and Fleischmann, who were not able to gain patents in the US, CETI has been granted a number of patents for its devices." The sentence in disupte thus meets the WP:notability requirement. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Notability does not equate relevance. I still don't see what this has to do with anything. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

For information, this discussion is about this diff. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

paragraph on theory vs experiment

There is a disagreement on the relevance of this paragraph:

One reason for many to exclude a nuclear origin for the effect is that current theories in physics cannot explain how fusion could occur under such conditions. However, the lack of a satisfactory explanation cannot be used to dismiss experimental evidence.

This paragraph is sourced by a reliable, notable source: the 2004 DOE panel. It would not be difficult to show many other sources discussing the lack of a theory as a reason to reject cold fusion. So why do you want it remove ? Pcarbonn (talk) 22:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph is sourced, but it has zero meaning and is POV-slanted towards cold fusion. The wording implicitly assumes that the cold fusion experiments are valid, which is most definitely not accepted in the scientific community. Further, it makes an argument that is a logical fallacy, and assumes that fusion is happening and not something else. It doesn't really say anything. Michaelbusch (talk) 22:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I have now started a list of deletion of properly sourced statements done by Michaelbusch on his talk page. Feel free to add comment there on his pattern of behavior. Pcarbonn (talk) 06:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Please note that I have also raised a wikiquette alert. Pcarbonn (talk) 06:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

For the benefit of clarity, here is the full source for that statement: "Cold fusion research : A Report of the Energy Research Advisory Board to the United States Department of Energy". 1989. Retrieved 2007-11-21. "Nuclear fusion at room temperature, of the type discussed in this report, would be contrary to all understanding gained of nuclear reactions in the last half century; it would require the invention of an entirely new nuclear process"" and "the failure of a theory to account for cold fusion can be discounted on the grounds that the correct explanation and theory has not been provided Pcarbonn (talk) 06:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The statment made above directly contradicts the statement that MichaelBusch noted above. The quoted statements are saying that cold fusion can be discounted because no theory accounting for it has been developed. That's the opposite of the statement removed. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Please do not misquote the 2004 DOE panel. Here is the full quote:

The claims of cold fusion, however, are unusual in that even the strongest proponents of cold fusion assert that the experiments, for unknown reasons, are not consistent and reproducible at the present time. However, even a single short but valid cold fusion period would be revolutionary. As a result, it is difficult convincingly to resolve all cold fusion claims since, for example, any good experiment that fails to find cold fusion can be discounted as merely not working for unknown reasons. Likewise the failure of a theory to account for cold fusion can be discounted on the grounds that the correct explanation and theory has not been provided. Consequently, with the many contradictory existing claims it is not possible at this time to state categorically that all the claims for cold fusion have been convincingly either proved or disproved.

I don't see how it could ever support the view that "cold fusion can be discounted because no theory accounting for it has been developed". Please provide adequate quotes in support of your view. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Likewise the failure of a theory to account for cold fusion can be discounted on the grounds that the correct explanation and theory has not been provided. You're selectively quoting. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not so. Here is how the sentence must be understood in its context: 'Likewise the failure of Quantum Mechanics to account for cold fusion can be discounted on the grounds that the correct explanation and theory has not been provided.'. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC) This clearly says that "the failure of Quantum Mechanics to account for cold fusion can be discounted".Pcarbonn (talk) 15:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition, the principle that "the lack of a satisfactory explanation cannot be used to dismiss experimental evidence" is the basis of the scientific method. Arguing the contrary puts you in the WP:Fringe of science.Pcarbonn (talk) 15:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Nope, you are misreading the statement. The statement is saying that the lack of theoretical development is a direct hindrance to accepting the claims of cold fusion advocates. You can try to put as much positive spin on the statement as you like, but I'm not going to let you insert that spin into the article. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I really don't understand how you could ever come to this conclusion by neutrally reading the quoted statement or the report. I have created a request for comment below. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Michaelbusch, ScienceApologist, could you tell us whether you would accept mediation on this issue ? Thanks. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but I'll only accept mediation from a mediator who has a degree in physics, chemistry, or a related science field. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Experiment is the reality check of science. If theory cannot explain a valid experiment then the theory has to be described as having limitations or the theory must be revised. This is the scientific method. We do not have to source the scientific method or other basic principles in science. There is no rational other position. Ron Marshall (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

No way. Experiment drives theory, but unless you believe that reality is not self-consistent then there have to be occasions when experimenters report results that are erroneous. We don't have to explain N-rays. They simply don't exist and the experimenter who reported their existence was simply wrong. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure, some results are erroneous, and should be dismissed : The N-ray experiment was demonstrated to be wrong. Note that it was not the lack of a theory that convinced the scientific community, but a "test" experiment where a prism was removed. This was the turning point in the controversy. Never was the lack of a theory used to dismiss the N-ray experiment.

There are many differences between the N-ray experiment and cold fusion: cold fusion has been reported by many scientists, it has been reported in several peer-reviewed journals, the DOE panel in 2004 was evenly split on whether the evidence of excess heat were convincing. To convincingly dismiss cold fusion results would require explaining the experimental artefacts. Until it is done, one cannot dismiss it, and certainly not based on a lack of theory to explain it. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

While you can be rah-rah all you want about cold fusion, the fact of the matter is that it is plainly dismissed by the majority of scientists in the know: rightly or wrongly. Trying to weasel your way out of this fact will lead you nowhere as Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia which gives the most weight to scientific consensus. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You won't get anywhere with this "cold fusion is plainly dismissed by the majority of scientists in the know" until you provide a source supporting this statement that would be more reliable than the 2004 DOE panel, which clearly says the contrary. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

My anecdotal 2 cents: it's been a long time since I took nuclear physics, but my professors at the time accepted that cold fusion might happen through a process involving muon substitutions for electrons (they have a closer "orbit" to the nuclei than electrons, thus requiring less energy to start the fusion process), but that the Pons-Fleischmann-Hawkins experiment was very flawed. I.e., there was no reason to rule out cold fusion as a theoretical process, but there was no experimental evidence (at the time, about 1989, IIRC) to support it, either. Ben Hocking 17:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That was 1989, as you said. Since then, dozens of different and improved experiments that addressed the shortcomings of those first ones have been executed and replicated, and the results have been published in peer-reviewed journals (though with considerable difficulty, especially in the US: the Japanese and Europeans have handled the matter in a far more sensible way). This article, at least before this last edit warring sessions, linked to e-prints for many of those papers (I have no time at the moment to check what the usual suspects have done to the references section). I would suggest you to read the works appeared on the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics and INFN's Report 41 if you want to get up to date on this subject. By the way, what your professor was referring to was Muon-catalyzed fusion: known since long, well understood, but unfortunately almost working. A completely different beast. --Holland-it (talk) 18:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

There has been no outside corroboration of cold fusion supporters claims that there has been advances since 1989. This is just posturing and making more excuses for POV-pushing. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In your dreams. Just the two references I have given point to a peer-reviewed paper by Iwamura and a report by the first nuclear physics organization of Italy that present evidence which is qualitatively different from what was available in 1989 (and in the case of the Iwamura paper, not even postulated at the time). You can obviously point to refutations of those papers published in similar venues, if you can find them, but you can't possibly say that no other corroborations ever emerged. I have just cited two of them. --Holland-it (talk) 19:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Ben's got it. The fact is that cold fusion in principle may or may not be possible seems like it may fly, but the methodological problems and questionable results arise when it comes to the reports on cold fusion actually happening in the laboratory. The DOE report outlines the skepticism surrounding these claims. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The statements by ScienceApologist and others have been answered before in the article text and that text has been deleted to suppress evidence. It has been pointed out before that there was no theory to explain the anomalous heat from the radioactivity of radium when it was discovered. It was pointed out before that many years passed before there was a theory for low temperature super conductivity. I think we still are looking for a theory for high temperature super conductivity.

As I pointed out in the NPOV article nuclear transmutations with unnatural isotope ratios is valid experimental proof that nuclear reactions are occurring cold fusion experiments whether or not deuterium fusion is occurring. All this talk about theoretical barriers is just so much nonsense.

Its really about social conformity and censorship. Ron Marshall (talk) 18:47, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent)Ron, you are becoming increasingly shrill and adding nothing to the discussion. According to talk page guidelines, we are here to discuss the article not complain about the cabal censoring your favorite pet ideas. This kind of rhetoric will get us nowhere and your inflammatory edits that try to make a point are also not appreciated. Please cease this behavior at once. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Michaelbusch: Stop deleting important books!

Michaelbusch, or someone, keeps deleting important books about cold fusion. Michaelbusch asks: "please explain why these particular references are required." Reasons:

Experts in cold fusion ranging from Storms & Bockris to Arthur C. Clarke recommended these books, and wrote forwards & introductions to the books.

Mallove was published by Wiley, one of the largest and most respected technical publishers. It was widely reviewed and nominated for a Pulitzer prize. Mallove himself played a key role in the history of cold fusion. Mallove purchased the rights to the book and reprinted it, partly because he needed the income, which was considerable.

Dozens of experts contributed to Beaudette. The University of Utah asked for, and accepted, his papers, interviews and the manuscript of this book.

Mizuno is one of Japan's leading cold fusion scientists and electrochemists. He has published over 50 papers, mainly in Japanese, about several different aspects of electrochemistry, including cold fusion. The Japanese edition of this book has sold tens of thousands of copies and the publisher asked him to write a second book, which he did. (It has not been translated into English.)

Contrary to your assertions above, these are not in any sense "self published" books. They were all professional edited and they have all sold thousands of copies.

The fact that you ask why these books are important tells me that you are unfamiliar with the field. Have you even read these books? There are roughly 2,500 researchers in cold fusion listed in the LENR-CANR database. I have met or worked with hundreds of them. I am sure that most of them are familiar with these books, and consider these books important. If you are not an expert in cold fusion, you have no business second-guessing them. Whether you think cold fusion is real or not has no bearing on this issue. If this article was about the Flat Earth theory it would include books that most Flat Earth believers consider important.

PLEASE STOP VANDALIZING THIS PAGE!

- Jed Rothwell Librarian, LENR-CANR.org

Let me add that I have several other books on cold fusion, both pro and con, that do not merit listing in this bibliography for the reasons cited by Michaelbusch; i.e. they are obscure or self-published. Some are pretty good, but obscure. In other words, Michaelbusch's standards for exclusion are reasonable but they do not apply to the books he excluded.

- Jed Rothwell Librarian, LENR-CANR.org

Obviously, this person has a conflict of interest in this case and while their concerns are noted, cold fusion is ultimately subject to the policies and guidelines of Misplaced Pages, not the wishes of the LENR-CANR librarian. Thank you. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

By this standard, all 2,500 of the scientists who have published positive experimental evidence for cold fusion would also be excluded, and any biologist who is convinced that evolution is real would be excluded from contributing to articles about biology or creationism.

Four of the leading cold fusion researchers are (or were) contributing editors to peer-reviewed physics journals, such J. Fusion Energy (which is mainly devoted to plasma fusion). They would also have a conflict of interest by this standard, since they get to pick and choose who publishes papers on both plasma fusion and cold fusion, and obviously they are convinced that both phenomena exist. They have much more editorial control than a librarian does. Are you going to exclude them, as well?

In any case, LENR-CANR.org is the world's leading anti-cold fusion website, as well as the largest pro-cold fusion site. We are strictly even-handed. We include nearly every skeptical, anti-cold fusion paper ever published. Thousands of papers have been written about cold fusion, including at least 1,200 peer-reviewed papers. Out of all these papers, there are only 5 or 10 that deny cold fusion exists, or that list any technical reason to doubt that it exists. We have asked all of the authors of these papers for permission to upload. Some said yes, so we have copies of four of these papers. There are no others.

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org

Your slippery slope argument holds no water. We evaluate sources, subjects, and articles for inclusion on a case-by-case basis. There are undoubtably sources in your library which can be used here. There are also sources which cannot be used here. Just because a source is in your library does not mean that the source must be worthy of inclusion at Misplaced Pages. You cannot impose the goals of your organization onto Misplaced Pages. Thank you. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I am imposing nothing. A large majority of people who know something about this field will agree that these books are important. That includes even some of the leading anti-cold fusion skeptics, who have cited these books.

It also includes other librarians, such as the U. Utah librarians and scientists who are collecting papers from Beaudette and others. They know as much about cold fusion as I do, and along with nearly every scientist who has read the literature, they are convinced that cold fusion is real. The only people who remain unconvinced are a handful of flakes who do not believe in the conservation of energy, and people such as the editor of the Scientific American, who has read nothing about cold fusion, and who knows nothing. He told me he has never read a paper on cold fusion because it is "not his job." His editorials and articles bear this out. They are full of ridiculous mistakes.

YOU are the one who is imposing an arbitrary, personal standard. Have you even read these books? Do you know who wrote the forwards? Have you read any reviews, blurbs, or attacks on these books? Do you know what their Amazon.com ranking is? I and others have evaluated all of these factors before selecting these books. We include some obviously rotten-to-the-core nonsense polemics such as Taubes, because they are somewhat important. What are YOUR standards for excluding these books?

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org

If you can provide us with evidence that the references that have been removed are cited in mainstream publications or have received enough notability to make them important for consideration to our article, then please do so. However, the standard for inclusion of material published by marginal publishing presses must be higher than that published by those that are mainstream. To establish the necessity for the inclusion of these books, please show that these books are prominent enough to, for example, have generated a reviews or have been referenced extensively in books and publications that are not solely the purview of the fringe community. Thanks. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You wrote:

"If you can provide us with evidence that the references that have been removed are cited in mainstream publications or have received enough notability to make them important for consideration . . ."

I did that! The first message in this section lists the reasons. U. Utah established a special collection for Beaudette's papers and manuscripts. Mallove was reviewed in the New York Times and elsewhere and nominated for a Pulitzer. The forwards and reviews are written by important people such as Clarke. What more do you want? Do the authors have to win a Nobel Prize in literature?

Speaking of which, three of the cold fusion authors do have Nobel laureates, albeit in physics not literature. You call this a "fringe community" but you have no objective basis for saying that. That designation is absurd. There are, as I said, 2,500 authors, and they probably include a large fraction of the world's electrochemists. Authors in our library include Heinz Gerischer, Director of the Max Planck Institute for Physical Chemistry in Berlin; Dr. P. K. Iyengar, director of BARC and later chairman of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission; Prof. Melvin Miles, Fellow of China Lake; a retired member of the French Atomic Energy Commission; three of the editors of major plasma fusion journals that I mentioned previously, and many top researchers from U.S. national laboratories. Who the hell are you to claim this is a "fringe community"?!? YOU are the fringe element here! Cold fusion is mainstream. It was replicated in hundreds of labs such as Los Alamos and BARC, and these replications were published in some of the world's top peer-reviewed journals.

Peer-reviewed replications are the only standard of importance in science. Not your opinion or your arbitrary exclusion. You are not a journal editor. The Jap. J. of Applied Physics is Japan's number one journal of physics. It published several of Mizuno's papers (as author and co-author). It published a special issue devoted to cold fusion. His two books were published by one of Japan's largest academic publishers. Therefore, Mizuno is important. What standard do you apply that makes him unimportant? An ouija board?

- Jed Rothwell Librarian, LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 15:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You still haven't addressed the concerns about the particular sources that were removed. You are just commenting on the authors rather than the books. So, for example, you need to address the fact that the books themselves have not received recognition. Just because the author is of some renown does not mean every book he's ever written is worthy of inclusion. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "you need to address the fact that the books themselves have not received recognition." Look, for crying out loud, do you speak language? The books HAVE -- I repeat HAVE -- received recognition. They have been nominated for major prizes, reviewed in major newspapers, and sold in much higher numbers than most academic books. They have been praised by some of the most prestigious scientists in the world, and attacked by some of the leading opponents of cold fusion. The original manuscript of one has been acquired by U. Utah, which is one of the largest university libraries in the world, and the place where cold fusion was discovered. What more can you ask for?!? What standards do you have in mind? Are you expecting an endorsement from the Scientific American? No doubt you have dreamed up some new, arbitrary standard of "recognition." You should at least tell us how far you have moved the goalposts, and in which direction. No one else uses your imaginary standards of excellence, so please tell us what they are.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 19:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this objection based in policy? WP:UNDUE doesn't seem to say anything about whether sources have gained recognition in mainstream media. If they are not self-published and not the opinions of a single person, I don't see what policy can exclude them. 89.12.160.59 (talk) 18:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This objection is based on my interpretation of WP:N, WP:RS, WP:EL, WP:FRINGE, WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:SOAP. I get the impression from all these policies and guidelines that my request for books published by what may be termed "vanity presses" to be referenced by outside sources is totally legitimate. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah. I get it. You have declared John Wiley & Sons and Kougakusha to be "vanity presses." They are among the biggest publishers in the world, but not big enough for you. That's hilarious. Why don't you dream up some more outrageous and arbitrary reasons to censor information you don't like?

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 19:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Where have I asked for a book published by Wiley or Kougakusha to be excised from the article? I have no problem offering people a book available by these presses. However, it looks to me like these books are no longer published by those presses for reasons we can only surmise. As such, we are definitely under no obligation to advertise books that have been reprinted by vanity presses because the original publishers now feel that the books should no longer be printed. Complain to Wiley and Kougakusha, not to editors trying to keep Misplaced Pages free from cruft. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, Mallove was published by Wiley, and then reprinted by Infinite Energy Press. (That was actually a gift from the Wiley editor to Mallove, because it was a major source of income for him.) Mizuno was published by Kougakusha, and then translated by me, and reprinted by Infinite Energy Press with permission from Kougakusha. Kougakasha does not publish in English. A translation is a reprint. That is to say, publishers and authors usually get royalties from English to Japanese translations, and Infinite Energy pays royalties to Mizuno, not to the translator. I don't know if they pay Kougakusha or not.

In any case, whether these books are published by obscure publishers or major ones, the consensus of opinion by people on both sides of the debate is that these books are important. Supporters recommend these books; skeptics attack them by name; and skeptics like you frantically try to erase them. That proves they are important.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Yawn. I have included the ISBN for the Wiley book as we should not be in the business of getting Mallove income (Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox). Since the Kougakasha book was translated and not published by a legitimate English publishing press, it will not appear in our references. If you want to include the Japanese version, that's fine with me. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"I have included the ISBN for the Wiley book as we should not be in the business of getting Mallove income . . ."

Mallove is dead. I do not think his estate gets any income because Infinite Energy is tax exempt. The Wiley ISBN version is no longer sold.

"Since the Kougakasha book was translated and not published by a legitimate English publishing press, it will not appear in our references. If you want to include the Japanese version, that's fine with me."

We are not supposed to include foreign language sources here. YOU have no business declaring that Infinite Energy is not a legitimate press. Thousands of cold fusion researchers consider it legitimate, and that makes it legitimate for this purpose, in this context. Your opinion of cold fusion has nothing to do with this. A major publisher of creationist literature is still a major publisher, even if creationism itself is bogus science.

Please stop vandalizing this article and stop inserting your own opinions. The only opinions that count here are those expressed by experts in cold fusion, such as Mallove and Beaudette. Not yours, and not mine.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 22:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that the creation science Misplaced Pages article includes 17 books by creationists. They come from publishers such as Answers in Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research, and from several obscure publishers I have never heard of. I think that creationism is bogus science, and I expect ScienceApologist agrees. But neither of us has any right to barge into that article, declare that "Answers in Genesis" is not a legitimate publisher, and start erasing titles. We do not get to decide who is important or legitimate in creationism. Only the creationists do. Obviously they are a "fringe science" but again, that does not give us the right to disrupt their presentation or insert our opinions. That article is about creationism, not what Jed and Mr. Apologist think of creationism.

Note that the creationist bibliography is split between creationist and anti-creationist books. Perhaps we should split the cold fusion bibliography, for clarity.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 22:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have been heavily involved in the creation science page and can say that there are plenty of sources which give AiG notability through, for example, critical review. Note that we have an article on the subject. That's the kind of notability I'm asking for from the three printing presses I am questioning here. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You did not read what I wrote. Yes, even I have have heard of AiG, but, I repeat, there are also "several obscure publishers I have never heard of." I doubt you have heard of them either. Probably, no one outside the creationist community has heard of them. But I do not see you barging in there and erasing them. The people in that community know which authors are prominent, and you do not. I know which authors are widely read in the cold fusion community, and which books have been reviewed and praised by leading experts, and attacked by leading skeptics. You do not. You have not even read these books. So you should stop imposing your unfounded, ignorant opinions on this article. It is bad enough that you stuff unscientific foolishness into the article, but when you censor out legitimate sources of real information, you go too far.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 15:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This argument is fallacious. We aren't dealing with the creation science article, we're dealing with the cold fusion article. If you want to delete problematic references at creation science, be my guest. However, there is no requirement that an editor run around keeping every article to the same standard. I'll worry about creation science at a later date. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You wrote:

"This argument is fallacious."

Well, if so, at least I make an argument, whereas you bully and censor and impose your own opinions with no regard for the scientific consensus.

"We aren't dealing with the creation science article, we're dealing with the cold fusion article. If you want to delete problematic references . . ."

Ah, so there are different standards for different Misplaced Pages articles? You get to make up the rules as you go along. I see.

Anyway, you are wrong. These references are not problematic. You say they are, but you know nothing about the subject, nothing about these books, and you have no logical reason to say they are problematic. You are trying to censor information you don't like, and you do not even bother to invent an excuse to do it. You are violating Misplaced Pages rules.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 16:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to read the Misplaced Pages policies on civility and no personal attacks. Currently you are not engaging in proper talk page etiquette and will quickly find yourself losing editing privileges if you keep up this kind of advocacy. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Rothwell, Apologist's above statement seems to be correct. Now, please be aware that there is no cabal and that the Apologist, Someguy1221, myself, and various other editors of this page have considerable knowledge of physics. Your rationale for including the references seems to be 'these are good books'. Unfortunately, that is not the same as Misplaced Pages:Notability and Misplaced Pages:Relevance. If these references are to be included here, you must provide concise, neutral, reasons for them to be included. This is not 'these are good books' or even 'these are important books' but something like 'this is a standard reference work' - but then you need to justify that statement. Michaelbusch (talk) 18:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have made it abundantly clear that these are standard reference books, and they are considered important by experts in this field.

Your knowledge of physics has no bearing on this discussion unless you have read these books and you can list reasons why they are NOT important, and NOT standard references. Even then, you are outvoted by the experts in the field who wrote the forwards and positive reviews of these books.

I have not said these are good books. As a matter of fact, the ones by Taubes and Huizenga are dreadful. See my mini-review of Taubes here, on p. 4 and 5:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf

Taubes is out of print, so it is obscure, and I am probably one of the few people who has actually read it, yet I agree it should remain on this list.

Regarding civility, you are bullying; imposing your point of view without justification; overruling expert opinion; and inventing arbitrary rules that are not applied in other Misplaced Pages articles such as the creation science article. You people are much ruder than I am.

- Jed Rothwell

You will need to calm down or you will find yourself subject to blocking and perhaps even banning. I suggest that you take a Wikibreak as you are obviously too heated to engage in rational discussion right now. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to stop reverting. You have reverted one more time that I have, because I started this round; i.e., if I reverted 3 times, you must have done 4.

I doubt you would recognize a rational discussion if it bit you on the butt. Anyway, I will not let you gag my friends and censor out the truth as long as I am allowed in here. You can fill the article with your unscientific, unsourced "skeptical" nonsense all you like, but I will not let you hide the truth completely. People deserve a chance to see these books, so they can learn the facts.

Also, by the way, I don't respond well to threats. If you can block me and censor me as one of your bullying tactics, go ahead and do it. Don't waste your time threatening to do it.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 19:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this conversation is over. Unless someone has some new information as to the relevance of these few books, I think we should stop with this back-and-forth. We are here to write an encyclopedia, not to decide who is censoring whom. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

RfC: Is the lack of theory a reason to dismiss cold fusion, according to the 2004 DOE panel ?

Template:RFCsci

Editors have conflicting view on it. Please help resolve the dispute. This RFC continues a discussion started here.Pcarbonn (talk) 17:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Lack of a theory is a peferctly good reason to dismiss something that's never been observed. Someguy1221 (talk) 19:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure. The problem here is that the 2004 DOE panel was evenly split on the observation of excess heat, so that a neutral point of view cannot assume that "it has never been observed". None of those who rejected the evidence in 2004 said that they did it because of a lack of theory. Pcarbonn (talk) 13:24, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The title of this section makes no sense, for two reasons:

1. Lack of theory is never a valid reason to reject replicated experimental results. That violates the scientific method at the most fundamental level. When theory conflicts with experiment, theory always yields.

2. The 2004 DoE panel never asserted anything like this. Very few scientists are so ignorant of the scientific method that they would claim this. The only opponent of cold fusion who says this is John Huizenga. The others all claim, falsely, that the effect was never replicated. They pretend that hundreds of peer-reviewed papers do not exist. This is what a few members of the DoE review panel did.

Someguy wrote: "Lack of a theory is a perfectly good reason to dismiss something that's never been observed." That is true, but it has no bearing on this discussion, because cold fusion has been observed thousands of times in hundreds of laboratories, often at very high signal to noise ratios.

I see the level of confusion and scientific illiteracy here remains as high as ever. People who have read nothing and who know nothing feel they have a solemn obligation to trash research and erase the titles of books written by actual scientists about the actual subject. I should stop wasting my time here. I have to hand it to the supporters of cold fusion, who have done a remarkable job holding off the forces of ignorance and censorship, but I still feel it is a futile task. If you want to learn about cold fusion, or any other science, you need to go to legitimate sources of information such as peer-reviewed journals and the books by Storms, Beaudette and the others that the fanatics here are so anxious to erase.

- Jed Rothwell

When theory conflicts with experiment, theory always yields. This is not true. When a student measures the acceleration due to gravity in the lab to be 8 +/- 0.5 m/s^2, that does not mean we throw out Newton's Theory of Gravity. Sometimes experiments give erroneous results due to systematics, human error, etc. When there is no consistent theory that can be offered which explains an experimental result: one sometimes looks with suspicion on the experimental result. This is basic experimental methodology: skepticism about misleading measurements is important and can only be provided by theory. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "This is not true. When a student measures the acceleration due to gravity in the lab . . ." I meant replicated, peer-reviewed experiments that have been repeated thousands of times in hundreds of labs. Not undergraduate mistakes. I expect you understood that is what I meant, and your counter-example is a red herring. Please be serious.

- Jed Rothwell

Excess heat has been observed, neutron emission has been observed, but no results have been observed that are consistent with known processes of nuclear fusion as accepted by the quantum physics. There's a reason mainstream physics doesn't believe in cold fusion, and it's not because it doesn't fit nicely into their longstanding theories. The DoE's report shows they were very unconvinced that the heat observed resulted from nuclear fusion, even if the actual source remained unknown. Thus, they are not dismissing the evidence of nuclear fusion, merely doubting the interpretations. Someguy1221 (talk) 21:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Someguy wrote:

"Excess heat has been observed, neutron emission has been observed, but no results have been observed that are consistent with known processes of nuclear fusion as accepted by the quantum physics. . . ."

Neutrons are seldom observed, and only at rates ~11 million times too small to explain the reaction. Helium is always present in the same ratio to the heat as plasma fusion. Some theorists disagree with your statement. They feel that quantum physics can explain the reaction. In any case, you cannot reject or ignore replicated experiments just because they appear to violate theory. That turns the scientific method upside down.

"There's a reason mainstream physics doesn't believe in cold fusion . . ."

That's why SOME mainstream physicists don't believe the results. That is also why many chemists do believe the results. Chemists are more used to dealing with the real world, and not idealized theories. See the comments by Gerisher, for example: "there is now undoubtedly overwhelming indications that nuclear processes take place in the metal alloys." You "skeptics" sometimes imagine that you speak for everyone, but thousands of distinguished scientists such as Gerisher disagree with you, and they find the evidence "overwhelming."

"The DoE's report shows they were very unconvinced that the heat observed resulted from nuclear fusion . . ."

The DoE report was a fiasco, in my opinion. I have a low opinion most of the panelist's comments. Most of them got a smattering of information, they glanced at a few papers, and then they jumped to conclusions. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm

You need to read peer-reviewed papers instead of the half-baked opinions of DoE panelists. People spend years writing these papers. The panelists spent a few hours.

- Jed Rothwell

This is fast descending into speculative original research that cannot possibly lead to improving the article. The opinions of Jed Rothwell are not verifiable nor are they going to dictate the form of the article since consensus, neutrality, and reliable sourcing are what governs how articles get written. I suggest tabling this discussion as it has degenerated into a debate over the merits of cold fusion rather than an honest attempt to improve this article. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is attempt by self appointed scientific censors to delete or block positive evidence and but a skeptic spin what is left in. Improving an article means giving the relevant facts to the reader and let the reader decide. Ron Marshall (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Another red herring! The opinions of Jed Rothwell have nothing remotely to do with the issues under discussion. Jed Rothwell did not invent the scientific method, and he is not the Director of the Max Planck Institute for Physical Chemistry in Berlin, and he has not performed or published any research -- original or unoriginal. He did not write any of the books listed here, and he is not mentioned in any of these books. He is completely, utterly, absolutely irrelevant and you are trying to personalize the discussion, and use ad hominem arguments.

Are you suggesting that the opinions and information published by the Director of the Max Planck Institute and researchers at BARC or Los Alamos are "not reliable" or "not important"? What would be important? Who are we supposed to quote?

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

What quote are you wanting to include in the article and where? ScienceApologist (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not wish to insert any quote into the article. I referred to the quote from Gerisher in this discussion, above. When you wrote: "This is fast descending into speculative original research . . ." I assumed you meant this discussion right here, in this box. I have not made any speculative comments here.

- Jed Rothwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The accusation of scientific illiteracy can also be leveled against those who write about sketchy fringe theories and attempt to pass them off as consistent with the best scientific understanding. (Example: Widom Larsen heavy electrons passed off as "mainstream". Example: the four deuteron reaction sourced to an article that said the two-deuteron reaction was 10 times more likely. Example: Swartz' theory sourced to a 1955 article.) Experiments test theory, but theory guides the experimentalists on what to test. Without theory, experimentalists have an infinite set of possibilities to search. It is a notable part of the evaluation of cold fusion science as a whole that the expected back and forth between theory and experiment is so impoverished. JohnAspinall (talk) 21:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• Outside comments. First, it is very hard to understand what the issue being disucssed is, since it is not clear in what context the controversial paragraph was used in (and the RfC thread is already filled with what I assume are comments from the involved parties). In other words, a diff or some other help is needed for outsiders to understand how the paragraph fits into the article. Second, it seems as you are making this debate and the controversial paragraph much more compliacted than it needs to be, since the DOE report is both clear and easy to read (I assume conclusions 4 and 5 are relevant to this discussion). In conclusion, I did not understand neither the removed paragraph nor this discussion, but I did understand the report. Therefore, I believe it should be possible to present the information in the report in a way such that everybody can agree on what its conclusions are. Labongo (talk) 12:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Here is a diff higlighting the change. While conclusion 5 of the 1989 report is still relevant, its conclusion 4 has been significantly change by the second DOE panel, in 2004: the panel was evenly split on the evidence of excess heat, i.e. heat that cannot be explained by current theories or experimental artifacts. That's why it becomes important to explain that theory cannot be used to exclude experimental results, as quoted above. Pcarbonn (talk) 13:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Absence of a theory is a reason to be skepticall, but it's not a reason to outright reject a result. In this case "being skeptical" would mean taking a hard look at any proposed experimental evidence. But "taking a hard look" isn't the same as rejecting it out of hand, so I'll agree with the opinions that it's should not be listed in and of itself as a reason to reject cold fusion. The question of whether the 2004 DOE report said it was a reason to reject it is a different question-- that should be a simple problem of finding a citation; did they say that, or not? Geoffrey.landis (talk) 01:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The DOE certainly did not say that lack of theory can be a reason to dismiss cold fusion. I presented evidence that it actually said that the lack of theory cannot be a reason to dismiss cold fusion. See discussion here.Pcarbonn (talk) 16:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved cold fusion to cold fusion research

My quick glance at the article failed to find much significant information about what cold fusion is, which is not surprising since the DOE said:

Most reviewers, including those who accepted the evidence and those who did not,

stated that the effects are not repeatable, the magnitude of the effect has not increased in over a decade of work, and that many of the reported experiments were not well documented.

I hesitate to call this a "controversy", although there is a certainly a scientific dispute. Perhaps this is merely protoscience; I hope so, because cheap energy would benefit the third world tremendously.

The possibility that it's protoscience does not necessarily lead to cheap energy. It is possible that the eventual benefit of the unknown effect or effects called "cold fusion" will be slightly better battery technology, or an alternative method of hydrogen storage. Or an interesting laboratory demonstration with no practical application. The personality clashes we see here, and the larger "controversy" are evidence that many egos, and much money, are being bet on the possibility that it has to turn out big, important and earth-shattering. But it doesn't have to turn out that way. JohnAspinall (talk) 15:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

But I think what our readers are looking for is research about the "cold fusion" elusive effect. We should be fair to the possibility that it can be / has been produced, while not exaggerating anything. If the mainstream of physics is saying things like, "Sorry, gentlemen, we simply cannot reproduce your results", then the burden is on the proponents. Anyway, we can be neutral here in the contributor club, can't we? --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

article names should cause the least surprise. I think Cold fusion is a better term and there should be a consensus before a new name is adopted. Ronnotel (talk) 00:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that tacking the word "research" onto the title of this article achieves anything valuable. I oppose this move. The rationale offered makes no more sense to me than would moving Dog to Dog information on the grounds that most people who try to go to Dog are looking for information. Cardamon (talk) 08:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Being bold

I know it's extreme, but I have reverted this to the 2004 Featured Article version. The amount of edit warring and POV-pushing that has cgone on here is breathtaking, the hundreds of to-and-fro edits have fragmented the article while obscuring the clarity that was in the original. It would be good, I think, to work back up from this adding new published research available since 2004, measuring every source and sentence against WP:NPOV and WP:RS. What we don't need is conflicted editors promoting thier own commercial interests, so I'm going to ask that Jed Rothwell restrict himself to short, factual statements on this discussion page and resist the temptation to indulge in lengthy segues. Just the facts, please, and only those facts available in rock-solid sources. Guy (Help!) 20:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You wrote: "I'm going to ask that Jed Rothwell restrict himself to short, factual statements on this discussion page . . . Just the facts, please, and only those facts available in rock-solid sources." All of my sources are rock solid, from peer-reviewed mainstream journals. Every statement I make can be checked on line at LENR-CANR.org against journal papers (or proceedings papers similar to the journal papers). The statements made by skeptics have never passed peer-review -- apart from Morrison's paper. Their assertions are all unfounded nonsense or lies. Despite the best efforts of honest supporters, Misplaced Pages is still a disgrace where censorship, mob rule, and unsourced opinions steamroll over objective science. Now YOU have arbitrarily erased months of work, and you have the chutzpah to call ME disruptive?

No self-respecting researcher will contribute to this article as long as you carry on this way. You make a mockery of science, fairness, objectivity, and academia. You "skeptics" should be ashamed of yourselves, and you should take a moment -- just one moment -- to consider the possibility that you are wrong and the 2,500 researchers who have observed the cold fusion effect are right. Think carefully: the laws of thermodynamics still work, x-ray film and mass spectrometers still work. Thousands of positive experiments are meaningful. Think about what you have done, and the harm it has caused. Why are you so angry? Why do you trash researchers, censor their references, and attack them so harshly? You know nothing about this research, and nothing about the books you erase, and yet you are certain you are right! This is hubris. I have been angry too long, and have exhausted the well of acrimony, but I shall never cease pitying you people, or mourning the damage you have done.

- Jed Rothwell

Your arguments have been spectacularly unpersuasive in the past and continue to be so now. So instead of long rambling discourse about how you are right and everybody else is wrong, please stick to short factual statements supported from credible peer-reviewed sources. Guy (Help!) 09:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not like he didn't try. I would ask you to review the discussion about the books by Mallove et al., and see for yourself if mr.Rothwell was given a fair opportunity to defend his reasons. Personally I think that the comments about removing the ISBN for the second publishing of the Mallove book "because we are not supposed to help Mallove get income" speak for themselves. Like every other ISBN link for every other still-available book didn't contribute to the author's income.... (And leaving aside the sad part about Mallove being, you know... dead). The bad faith in the insinuation about Wiley not publishing the book anymore meaning that it has been "found unfit for publishing by Wiley" is also hilarious, knowing that even classics of literature and university textbooks still used in classes routinely go out of print without anybody calling them "disqualified" by that. --81.208.60.199 (talk) 10:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You'll forgive a little scepticism here, I hope. A new anonymous user appearing to back up another anonymous user just when we've asked him to desist form promoting his own interests? Looks a bit fishy. Guy (Help!) 13:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I do forgive, actually, I know sockpuppets abound around here. Anyway, I'm not Rothwell, and I admit that he did himself a great disservice by bursting in the way he did. But I think that it's quite clear how most of his opposers didn't ever bother with listening to what he actually had to say. One of then flatly stated that NO SENSIBLE CORROBORATIONS of any kind emerged after 1989 about this topic, and that claiming otherwise is "POV-pushing". How are you supposed to present a person with "factual statements supported form credible sources" if they deny their existence?.

Rothwell gave some reasons for his conduct. They could have been questioned in a civil manner, editors could have asked him to present more proofs: but the most vocal ones just decided to brand him as a crank from the start and be done with it. Concerning the books the links could have been simply put as "Originally published by XXXX (ISBN), then reprinted/translated by YYYYY", saving all the drama. Nobody cared. So much for wikilove, assuming good faith and all those other empty words. --81.208.60.199 (talk) 14:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not exactly new to this subject either, a friend of mine did his PhD in one of Fleischmann's labs and did some work on the original experiments. He is now a full professor at a British university and author of a standard undergraduate text. His view, if I recall our last conversation about it, is that science has rejected the argument that is it cold fusion, but that the amount of energy liberated in the reaction is still something of a mystery, just not one that anybody cares enough to work on. Regardless, where are the recent stories in mainstream scientific journals? The original paper was in Nature, wasn't it? So it should be in the chemistry journals at least. That does not appear to be the case. Guy (Help!) 15:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Again.... there were lots of references to journal articles before the last revolution in this article. I don't remember them by heart obviously, but maybe I'll dig them out the old version when I find time. Many of those probably linked to lenr-canr, but in no way the site was the only possible source for articles. Concerning recent stories in reputable jounals... the papers by Iwamura and others in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics. Italian ENEA's so-called "Report 41", by De Ninno and Frattolillo (I would link to an Italian state TV report about those articles and the involvement of Carlo Rubbia with them, but I can't find an english-subtitled version). The US Navy research works. Yeah, it's a controversial topic if there ever was one, but the controversy is NOT OVER. And there is people working to clear the matter once and for all. Your friend's opinion is a common one, and in the nineties it would have been pretty much correct, but he simply wasn't really up to date with recent activities inside and especially outside the USA.

I took the time to read the papers I am mentioning before intervening here. I lent the book by Mallove at the physics library of my university and read it. Rothwell obviously has read many more, while one of the users who ganged up against him insisted that the "only recent development in cold fusion" was the sonofusion affair at Purdue, something that has NOTHING to do with Fleischmann-Pons type experiments or anything that evolved from them.... i.e. he doesn't even know what he's writing about. And some people wonder why Rothwell loses it.... --81.208.60.199 (talk) 16:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an expert sock sleuth, but IMHO 81.208.60.199 (talk · contribs) is not a new anon nor does it seem very likely to be a sock for Jed 66.32.161.85 (talk · contribs). Ronnotel (talk) 15:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As you say, this is indeed extreme, but it seems like a good place to start - especially since the only recent cold-fusion related item I recall is the research misconduct case at Purdue. However, please do keep the protection on the page for the moment. Michaelbusch (talk) 20:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great to me. What I would like to see is a succinct summary of the DOE report and perhaps the ACS conference but not much more as not much else has happened. The article that was restored is, in my opinion, fairly good. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the SPAWAR work with CR-39 radiation detectors from 2006 is probably an exception. I believe the findings were published in a peer-reviewed journal and there was some independent (not-entirely-conclusive) verification. Ronnotel (talk) 21:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest to start from the last stable version, ie. something like this one of end september. It is much expanded compared to the FA, and provides a lot of sources. It was the result of intense discussions, and has been pretty stable for a long time: presumably, it is not so controversial.

If this is not agreable, could we at least use some sections from it, such as the history ? Thanks in advance. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind looking at sections on a case-by-case basis, but I would not like to start from that version which reads much more horribly than this one. The history section I'm not too fond of, either. I think a lot of the wording is questionable. We can workshop it if you like. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverting to the 2004 article is totally unacceptable behavior. I reverted to the September 2006 version so skeptics can see what it feels like. These revisions need to stop until there is full discussion on them. Otherwise non-skeptic revisions will be made without discussion.Ron Marshall (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That's disruption to prove a point, something you have been warned against doing in the past. Keep it up and you will be subject to sanction. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist, I do not think you wood come off all them well in a comparison of ethics. Ron Marshall (talk) 22:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with ScienceApologist. Just because that version stood for a relatively long time does not mean it was valuable. In particular, (and you will recall our discussions on the Condensed_Matter_Nuclear_Science page) that was about the time I was beginning to question all the cold fusion theories on their connection to any basis in conventional science. Now that I've spent effort looking into every one of them, I would not like to see that shopping list of nonsense reappear. At the risk of making an assumption of bad faith, I think that certain entries there came close to deliberate intellectual dishonesty. (I'm thinking in particular of the cite for the 4-deuteron theory, which actually pointed at a paper offering evidence against the theory.)

I have two recommendations for vetting future edits:

• Follow the citations. Just because someone cites the Respectable Peer Reviewed Journal of Whatever, it doesn't mean that the cited article actually verifies the claim.
• Watch for cut'n'paste jobs from New Energy Times. The history in the September version bears a strong resemblance to http://newenergytimes.com/PR/TheSeminalPapers.htm ; not just in general content which you would expect, but also in specific choices of phrase.

JohnAspinall (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I am having a hard time understanding how a behavior by a censor is okay and the same behavior by someone else is not. JohnAspinall, I was there when the text was created and you are totally and completely wrong about the source. Ron Marshall (talk) 22:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I see a correlation between

• "On April 10, 1989, Fleischmann and Pons published their 8-page "preliminary note" in the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry. The paper was rushed, very incomplete and contained a clear error with regard to the gamma spectra." from http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cold_fusion&oldid=158754774, and
• " On April 10, Fleischmann and Pons published their 8-page "preliminary note" in the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry. The paper was rushed, very incomplete and contained a clear error with regard to the gamma spectra." from http://newenergytimes.com/PR/TheSeminalPapers.htm .

Of the three possible explanations:

1. Misplaced Pages author plagiarizes from New Energy Times,
2. New Energy Times author plagiarizes from Misplaced Pages,
3. It was pure chance that the two texts came out the same way,

which would you propose? JohnAspinall (talk) 06:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

Would you accept a mediation on the following point of dispute: "Which version should we continue editing from: the Featured Article of 2004, or a more recent one, eg. this one" ? Pcarbonn (talk) 23:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• It seems pretty straightforward to me: either we can start form a version that made featured article, or we can start from a version that was bed enoug to get FA status withdrawn. Not a very difficult call. Guy (Help!) 14:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

So, do you accept mediation ? I would hope that the committee will reestablish the principle that wikipedia is based on facts, not opinions, that it will request you to provide sources for your opinions, and that it will be sensitive to the fact that the work of dozens of editors doing two thousands edits over the last 3 years to reflect the latest developments in the field and to provide nearly 100 reliable sources on the subject, after considerable debates on how best to present the subject (see archives), cannot be deleted by the whims of a couple of users unable to provide sources for their views. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

While not perfect, the recent version is a perfectly good basis to continue editing the cold fusion article towards feature article status. It is well supported by the most reliable sources available, in particular regarding the recent events in the field such as the 2004 DOE panel, the SPAWAR experiment, and presentations at the annual meetings of the American Physical society and the American Chemical Society.

I'll defend the position that the reversion to the 2004 FA version is requested in violation of the "neutral point of view" and "no original research" policies of wikipedia. It is an attempt to eliminate well sourced evidence for the purpose of advancing a personal opinion. I'll suggest that the best way for the other party to defend its case is to provide relevant sources in support of their point of view.

A good illustration of this issue can be found in the discussion titled "paragraph on theory vs experiment", where the other party is trying to justify the deletion of a well sourced statement. The other party is seen misquoting sources, arguing against the basic tenet of science since Galileo which says that "the lack of a satisfactory explanation cannot be used to dismiss experimental evidence", and, when it all failed, used their personal opinion to justify it. They failed to respond to the request to support their point of view that cold fusion is dismissed by mainstream science.

The reversion to the 2004 FA version is the same as the deletion of the sentence on theory vs experiment, only on a grander scale. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

About damn time. I would like you to explain the procedure for a mediation request, to the benefit of any user who would like to intervene but doesn't know the correct protocol that should be followed. --81.208.60.199 (talk) 10:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is the procedure for mediation. Both sides need to accept it, hence my question, which I repeat again here, hoping to get an answer. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The reversion to the 2004 FA version is very good idea because it is much closer to NPOV that the recent versions. The sections on the recent activities (SPAWAR, CR-39, mechanism descriptions, etc.) were too long, which presented an erroneous impression that cold fusion is probably taking place in these experiments. It may be, but that is not yet supported by the documentation or the scientific consensus. The total amount of space devoted to the pro-cold-fusion reports should be kept short. Short discussions combined with links to key New Energy Times articles, JJAP articles, and related sources is the proper way to inform readers of the recent work. If cold fusion researchers produce articles in Physical Review Letters, Science, or Nature describing how to produce cold fusion devices (or start selling them), then those sections should be lengthened. 209.253.120.205 (talk) 12:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The Japanese Journal of Applied Physics is just as good a journal as PRL. I could agree with you about New Energy Times, but the JJAP is absolutely kosher. About the "erroneous impression that cold fusion is probably taking place in these experiments", I think that YOUR impression is the erroneous one. Since those are both IMPRESSIONS, shouldn't we just present all the purported evidence and let the reader make up his own mind? (That is NPOV, ain't it?) And by the way, the reality of nuclear fission was accepted well before that anybody had any plan for constructing a reactor, let alone a bomb, so the "when they start selling them" bit is unrealistic....

Anyway, I just got a reference for a paper that offers possible corroboration for cold fusion in the European Physical Journal A. ("Evidence for a host-material dependence of the n/p branching ratio of low-energy d+d reactions within metallic environments", Eur. Phys. J. A 27, s01, 187{192 (2006)) Is that good enough for you? --81.208.60.199 (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I think most scientists, even Japanese scientists, would agree that PRL is a much more prestigious journal than JJAP. If a submitted paper showed clear evidence of cold fusion, they would publish it. Until that (or something similarly convincing) happens we should make sure that the wikipedia article stays concise and does not imply that cold fusion has been believed by mainstream scientists.

The article should reflect the weight of each side in the scientific debate (see undue weight). It so happens that much more articles in peer-reviewed journals are favorable than unfavorable. I would invite the skeptics to write more articles in peer-reviewed journals, so that we can present their views in wikipedia. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I would also invite you to look at parity of source : the skeptics view should be presented based on sources at least as reliable as the sources presented by the pro-side. I don't see any support in wikipedia policies for the idea that cold fusion statements need to be sourced by Nature or PRL. Please explain otherwise. I believe that Nature and PRL does not publish article yet because cold fusion is still a protoscience, as the article describes. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be happy to add a sentence describing cold fusion as protoscience in the article, but, unfortunately, I have not found a reliable source saying that. It should be clear from the many sourced statements though, eg. from the DOE panel. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

By my count, the present version of the article is about 11 screens long, while the last version before the "bold move" was about 28 screens long. I will defend the proposition that, with proper links and modest updating, 11 or so screens is plenty of space to describe cold fusion, and would actually be more useful to users of wikipedia. Perhaps a split off article titled "Proposed Cold Fusion Mechansims" would help? 209.253.120.205 (talk) 19:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The section on proposed mechanism was fairly short. If the goal is to reduce the size of the article by splitting it, create an article on the history of cold fusion would be more effective. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

One last time: do you accept mediation on this issue, or do we go to the arbitration committee ? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with mediation, as long as the mediator has a degree in physics, chemistry, or a related field. I will not participate in a mediation with a mediator who has no familiarity with scientific subjects. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have now created a request for mediation here. I'm not sure whether it is possible to add participants, but feel free to do it if you want/can. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Current to-do list

Okay, so we're looking at:

1. Adding in-line references
2. Adding commentary on 2004 DOE report
3. Adding some findings on SPAWAR work
4. Discussing the LENR sessions at ACS
5. Reinclude the Taubes book (Bad Science)

Anything else?

ScienceApologist (talk) 21:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I would add the research misconduct case at Purdue (), where Rusi Taleyarkhan has been charged with obstructing tests of his work. Technically, this is bubble fusion and not cold fusion, but the distinction between the two is not clear to me. Michaelbusch (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought the whole point of bubble fusion is that it is 'hot' - i.e. purportedly relies on conventional physics. I don't really see that as belonging on a page about low-energy phenomena. Ronnotel (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Bubble-fusion is contentious at best: Taleyarkhan claims to be able to force deuterium to fuse by forming bubbles in deuterated acetone under room conditions, but no one has validated this. It seems like a cold fusion claim to me - fusion in the absence of high-energy radiation. Michaelbusch (talk) 22:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion about Taleyarkhan or the validity of bubble-powered nuclear reactions. However I disagree with your statement about absence of high energy. Bubble fusion is not theorized as fusion in the absence of high-energy radiation. It's theorized as fusion in the extremely hot interior of collapsing bubbles. Bubble fusion has never been on this page - I think we should avoid putting in new material that doesn't have consensus. Ronnotel (talk) 22:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I will point out that since no-one really knows what cold fusion is, it is hard to make this distinction. If, for instance, cold fusion were to turn out to be "crack generated" () then it would be "just as hot" as bubble fusion. JohnAspinall (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been making edits for a while now, but this version is a huge improvement. I would freeze it for a year if that were possible. When it is reopened for editing, the discussion of SPAWAR results and "alternative" mechanisms should be kept short, and the Taubes book (Bad Science) should be put back in. 209.253.120.205 (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

With a bit of luck, the to-do list above and a bit of polishing here and there will restore it to FA status. Guy (Help!) 23:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverting to the 2004 article is totally unacceptable behavior. I reverted to the September 2006 version so skeptics can see what it feels like. These revisions need to stop until there is full discussion on them. Otherwise non-skeptic revisions will be made without discussion.Ron Marshall (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ron Marshall (talk • contribs)

"Kook"?

JzG, please explain what do you think is "kooky" about a repository of articles previously published in other venues, mostly conference proceedings or peer-reviewed journals, and republished with permission of the authors. (That is, http://www.lenr-canr.org/) If you think that anything outside Nature and Physical Review Letters is "kooky", then we should just delete this page and be done with it. An encyclopedia writer should at least read things before passing judgement about them, and not follow his "nose" blindly. --81.208.60.199 (talk) 17:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Are we sure they have copyright permission for every single reprint? Guy (Help!) 15:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no reason to doubt it, but if you have a reliable source saying that they do, let us know. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That's what they state on the home page, we have no reason to suppose that they lie. Anyway, it would be a problem much more for them than for us... I'm glad to see that you recognize that lenr-canr is an article repository and not a "kooky" blog --Holland-it (talk) 16:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Basis of evaluation

Clearly there have been dozens or hundreds of reports of anamalous temperature increases or neutron emissions occurring while researchers study the electrolysis of D₂O. Everyone agrees it would be good if we could get cheap energy this way.

What we do not agree on is the basis for evaluating these experiments. "Your" inability to reproduce "my" experiments is not a disproof of anything, of course. Perhaps the question is more an economic one.

How much money should private investors or foundations allot to this promising new line of research? Should the government subsidize it? Good gosh, man, we are already spending over one billion dollars a year to prove that human-caused global warming threatens the future of the planet! Low-temp nuclear fusion could replace coal power for electricity generation, so why don't we fund cold fusion research?

Anyway, what we as writers here need to do is to describe both sides of the issue fairly. --Uncle Ed (talk) 19:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've come here from the Fringe theories noticeboard. I'm not sure that cold fusion is a fringe theory, but I have no strong POV on the question and will edit for a bit in what seems to me to be an NPOV direction. Please revert me if I get the science wrong. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• Are we sure lenr-canr.org is a reliable source? Guy (Help!) 15:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no reason to doubt it, but if you have a reliable source saying that they are not, let us know. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Lenr-canr is mostly a repository for sources that have been published elsewhere. We need to look at each on a case-by-case basis. Anything that has no attribution or reference at LENR-CANR does not belong being referenced at Misplaced Pages, in my humble opinion. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

LENR-CANR is not "mostly" a repository. It is entirely a repository, as stated on the top page. Every paper at LENR-CANR.org has an attribution or reference. You can always view the original versions at a good library, such as the Georgia Tech University library and the Los Alamos library, which is where we got most of the documents in the first place. There are a few "housekeeping" documents that have not been published elsewhere, but they are not scientific papers. There is no original research.

Many papers are from conference proceedings. These proceedings were published by the American Nuclear Society, the Societa Italiana di Fisica, Tsinghua U. and others, as noted.

Note that ScienceApologist's "humble opinion" indicates that he has not read the documents at LENR-CANR. He has not even glanced at them, or he would know they are all attributed. I am sure that he has read no papers or books about cold fusion whatever, because all of his assertions about the subject are mistaken. He has no business contributing to or editing this article.

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 20:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Conference proceedings are usually quite poor resources as they are rarely (if ever) peer-reviewed and not subject to the usual editorial control of most journal publications. I suggest avoiding LENR-CANR entirely and referring to papers and publications directly. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist wrote:

"Conference proceedings are usually quite poor resources as they are rarely (if ever) peer-reviewed . . ."

That is true, but I can sometimes get carte blanche permission to reprint the papers from proceedings, whereas it is often difficult (or impossible) to get permission to reprint journal papers.

"I suggest avoiding LENR-CANR entirely and referring to papers and publications directly."

Well of course you refer to papers and publications directly. What else would you do?!? You can't "refer" to papers on LENR-CANR because we have not published any, as I just said. Every paper comes from somewhere else, so obviously you list the original location. You can copy it right out of our HTML, for example:

McKubre, M.C.H., et al., Isothermal Flow Calorimetric Investigations of the D/Pd and H/Pd Systems. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1994. 368: p. 55.

You might as well include our URL while you at it, since you want people to actually read the paper and think for themselves:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHisothermala.pdf

By "you" I don't mean you, ScienceApologist. Of course YOU don't want anyone reading anything, and you yourself wouldn't dream of reading a paper. You want to censor out all genuine scientific information, erase book titles, censor out and stomp the opposition, and replace facts with your own opinions. That's why you erased the old version of this article. That's what you mean when you talk about "avoiding LENR-CANR entirely."

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop personally attacking me, Jed. You've already been blocked once. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Full protection

I've temporarily increased the protection level to this page to full protect in the face of continuing instability. Let's please resolve the outstanding issues on the talk page before undertaking massive edits. Ronnotel (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

For the general interest of the discussion, here are some past decisions of the arbitration commitee regarding POV:

• It is inappropriate to remove blocks of well-referenced information which is germane to the subject from articles on the grounds that the information advances a point of view. Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy contemplates inclusion of all significant points of view.
• Injection of personal viewpoints regarding the subject of an article is inappropriate and not to be resolved by debate among the editors of an article, but referenced from reputable outside resources.
• Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy contemplates including only significant published viewpoints regarding a subject.

I wish supporters of the view that cold fusion is still pseudoscience provides source for their personal views, that are at least as reliable as the 2004 DOE panel which says the contrary. Pcarbonn (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

More to the point, the editors and peer-reviewers at the J. Electroanal. Chem., Fusion Sci. & Technol., Naturwissenschaften. and hundreds of distinguished scientists such as the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, government of India say that cold fusion is not pseudoscience. In a sane web site, their views would override the personal views of a handful of fanatics such as ScienceApologist -- fanatics who have never read a paper or book on cold fusion and who clearly know nothing about the subject. As long as these people are allowed to run roughshod over the carefully expressed, peer-reviewed views of world-class experts in electrochemistry and nuclear science, this article will be worthless. What we have here is mob rule by a clique of ignorant people who trample on academic traditions, and censor out anyone who disagrees with them. This is a distillation of the worst attributes of Misplaced Pages. The problem is that ignorant fanatics have no self-awareness, and even though they mouth platitudes about science and objectivity, it never occurs to them to read papers, learn something, or look at experimental evidence.

- Jed Rothwell

LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 21:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

You need to butt out. Advocating links to your own website is considered a form of spamming. You don't seem to do much other than that at present. Incidentally, my friend who worked with Fleischmann is a world class expert on electrochemistry with a publicaiton list as long as your arm, an endowed chair at a British university, a worldwide lecture schedule and a standard undergraduate text to his name. And he thinks it's not fusion. And he wrote one of the control systems for one of Fleischmann's original experiments. Beware the appeal to authority. Guy (Help!) 23:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, LENR-CANR is edited by Storms, not me. Second, I have not added any links to my own website. I have not touched the Misplaced Pages article in years, and neither has any cold fusion researcher as far as I know, because it is dominated by skeptics. Other people have added links to LENR-CANR.org. Most of these have been erased.

"Incidentally, my friend who worked with Fleischmann is a world class expert on electrochemistry with a publicaiton list as long as your arm, an endowed chair at a British university, a worldwide lecture schedule and a standard undergraduate text to his name. And he thinks it's not fusion."

What is the basis for his opinion? Has he published a paper describing why he thinks it is not fusion? If so, I would be happy to reprint this paper at LENR-CANR.org, if he would like.

Anyway, I know several hundred world-class electrochemists such as Bockris, Miles, Mizuno and Oriani who disagree with him. They too have published dozens of papers, including many papers about cold fusion. I invite you and your friend to read these papers, at LENR-CANR.org. I also invite you to read the anti-cold fusion papers that try to disprove the findings. Only 5 or 10 have ever been published, as far as I know, mainly by Jones and Morrison. We have nearly all of them.

I invite you to read original sources. The skeptics here, on the other hand, are trying very hard to prevent you and everyone else from reading papers.

- Jed Rothwell

LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 23:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, by the way, sorry to nitpick but what I wrote is not an appeal to authority. Quoting the definition:

"This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious."

". . . Claims made by a person who lacks the needed degree of expertise to make a reliable claim will, obviously, not be well supported. In contrast, claims made by a person with the needed degree of expertise will be supported by the person's reliability in the area."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

All of the people I quote, such as Bockris and Oriani, are widely recognized genuine authorities. Also, they published their experiments in detail, and other experts replicated them. That is the gold standard of proof that they are right. There are some people working in cold fusion who, in my opinion, are not experts, but I do not quote from them.

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.176.42 (talk) 01:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish supporters of the view that cold fusion is still pseudoscience provides source for their personal views, that are at least as reliable as the 2004 DOE panel which says the contrary. -- I don't think that the DOE panel ruled on whether much of what is going on under the umbrella of "cold fusion research" is pseudoscience or not. Certainly there are people promoting pseudoscience as cold fusion and as such there are parts of this subject which are definitely pseudoscience. Nevertheless, there may be isolated researchers doing good work as well. That's what I get from the 2004 report. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist wrote: "Nevertheless, there may be isolated researchers doing good work as well." How would you know? You have not read any books or papers. For all you can say, all 2,500 researchers are doing good work. Or they may all be lunatics and frauds, just as Time magazine and the Washington Post say they are.

You can't begin to judge, and you have no basis to make this statement. It is pure speculation. Speculation and opinion are not allowed in Misplaced Pages, but you have nothing else to offer.

Or HAVE you actually read anything? Would you care to list one or two authors you have read? McKubre, Miles, Fleischmann? Did you find any mistakes?

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 23:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop referring to the contributor and instead focus on the content, Jed. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I shall refrain from referring to you personally, and I shall make a general statement. The "skeptical" anti-cold fusion assertions in this discussion page, and in the article, are counter-factual. They are mistaken. I don't mean that one or two of them are slightly inaccurate, I mean that if you compare them to actual, bona fide, peer-reviewed scientific information, you will see that they are utterly wrong. For example, take this statement by some unnamed person that there "may be isolated researchers doing good work" People have different ways of defining good work, but let's take a conventional one. Let's say that "good work" is "work accepted by top-notch peer-reviewed journals, and performed at major universities and corporations by prestigious scientists, and which is replicated by hundreds of other scientists." If that's what you have in mind then there are HUNDREDS of such researchers, not a handful of isolated ones. (Most are dead or retired, so it would be more accurate to say there were hundreds.)

It seems likely to me that whoever wrote these things could not have read the literature.

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org

I no longer think the word skeptic is appropriate. A skeptic might allow an opposing opinion to be expressed. We have seen rampant deletion of positive evidence. Perhaps we should coin a new phrase to express it, pathological censorship.Ron Marshall (talk) 03:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Skeptics by definition, at least the dictionary definition, allow every opinion to be heard and simply refrain from making positive conclusions on the subjects they believe insufficiently proved. Everyone should be a skeptic in this sense, when talking about science: blame the rabid "debunkers" of CSICOP and such for giving "skeptics" a bad name.... --81.208.60.199 (talk) 07:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. Scepticism is in fact a core principle in the scientific method. {{proveit}}, as they say. Guy (Help!) 00:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned that the "skeptical" anti-cold fusion assertions on this page are mistaken. Only a handful of anti-cold fusion papers have been published. They are equally mistaken. The Morrison paper is a good example. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmanreplytothe.pdf

Much of the Morrison paper is devoted to the argument that ". . . a complicated non-linear regression analysis is employed to allow a claim of excess enthalpy to be made."

As Fleischmann pointed out in his rebuttal, Morrison "failed to observe that we manifestly have not used this technique in this paper."

Morrison demanded that Fleischmann et al. use another method. Again, he failed to note that Fleischmann did, in fact, use this method. Fleischmann asked: ". . . given that Douglas Morrison accepts the methods advocated by the group at General Electric and, given that we have used the same methods in the recent publication should he not have accepted the validity of the derived values?"

Another example is the Hoffman book, "A Dialog on Chemically Induced Nuclear Fusion." Most of this book is devoted to the hypothesis that cold fusion experiments were conducted with used, recycled heavy water from CANDU fission reactors. This, too, is manifestly incorrect. I contacted Ontario Hydro (now Atomic Energy of Canada), which produces all of the CANDU heavy water, as well as heavy water for laboratory use. They responded immediately with a 2-page fax pointing out that used moderator water exceeds radiation safety standards by a factor of 100,000,000, and that it is strictly against the law to sell it. They concluded: "Used moderator water can often be re-sold, but only to other reactor operators. . . . Ontario Hydro dominates the world's nuclear market for heavy water and the world's non-nuclear wholesale market, and we have never attempted to use diluted, cleaned-up old moderator water for our non-nuclear markets."

All other skeptical assertion are equally unfounded, and never fact-checked. Hoffman spent years and a grant for hundreds of thousands of dollars writing his book, but he never bothered to make a 10-minute phone call to Ontario Hydro to check his hypothesis. These "skeptical" assertions appear to be based solely on the imaginations of skeptics. I do not understand why Misplaced Pages allows made-up speculation to dominate this article, but it does. I further do not understand why Misplaced Pages allows these "skeptics" to erase actual, legitimate information from conventional sources such as peer-reviewed, mainstream journals.

- Jed Rothwell

Librarian, LENR-CANR.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.247.224.24 (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

From NPOV Tutorial

Information suppression

A common way of introducing bias is by one-sided selection of information. Information can be cited that supports one view while some important information that opposes it is omitted or even deleted. Such an article complies with Misplaced Pages:Verifiability but violates NPOV. A Misplaced Pages article must comply with all three guidelines (i.e. Verifiability, NPOV, and No original research) to be considered compliant.

Some examples of how editors may unwittingly or deliberately present a subject in an unfair way:

• Biased or selective representation of sources, eg:
  • Explaining why evidence supports one view, but omitting such explanation in support of alternative views.
  • Making one opinion look superior by omitting strong and citable points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POVs (strawman tactics).
  • Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors.
• Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions have little substance:
  • Entirely omitting significant citable information in support of a minority view, with the argument that it is claimed to be not credible.
  • Ignoring or deleting significant views, research or information from notable sources that would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Misplaced Pages terms (this could be done on spurious grounds).
  • Concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value.

Thus, verifiability, proper citation and neutral phrasing are necessary but not sufficient to ensure NPOV. It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability. Ron Marshall (talk) 23:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• The phrase "information suppression" is a 100% proof positive indicator of a POV being pushed. Try again. Guy (Help!) 00:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy, that is precisely our point: reverting to the 2004 version results in the suppression of many well-sourced statements, and a 100% proof positive indicator of a POV being pushed. Ron and I have never deleted a well sourced statement from the article, be it pro or against cold fusion. We have never refused the deletion of a statement without sources. We would like ScienceApologist and MichaelBusch to do the same. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

That reads to me, as a seasoned admin with much exprerience of POV-pushing by fringe science proponens, as follows: blah blah blah SUPPRESSION OF THE TRUTH™ blah blah. The 2004 version is an FA, a fairly objective measure of merit. The edits since caused demotion from FA due to POV-pushing by cold fusion kooks, whihc indicates a distinct downward trend. Instead of attacking the 2004 version, try suggesting good, well-cited, peer-reviewed content on which to build. Guy (Help!) 13:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy - use of characterizations such as kooks does not help consensus to form. Ronnotel (talk) 13:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

But that's exactly what the more recent version contains ! well-cited, peer-reviewed content ! Please tell me which sentence is not properly cited, so that we can address it.

Again I must disagree. Every single one of the cold fusion "theories" was inadequately sourced, and/or presented in POV-pushing terms to suggest they were more consistent with mainstream consensus than they are.

In addition, the FA version contained a small sub-section titled "Energy source vs power store". That subsection represented the intermediate opinion that there is a real unexplained phenomenon here, but it may not turn out to be as significant as the true believers believe. That subsection was well-written, brief, and clear. Its subsequent disappearance supports Guy's opinion of article degradation. JohnAspinall (talk) 15:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If true, this can be addressed by correcting the corresponding sections or statements. No need to delete 3 years of work. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

One problem is that the statements on "energy source vs power store" are not properly sourced in the FA version, though. I believe that this is the reason it has been deleted, so that the article meets high NPOV standard. Pcarbonn (talk) 15:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

A lot has happened since the FA version, and all editors recognize that it is wanting (see Current to-do list). Entering this information is what dozens of editors have done over the last 3 years, after intense discussion and some POV disputes (see talk archive), and the current version of the article reflects all that. Asking to do it again is disruptive, and will drive valuable editors away. It sounds groundless to me too, as it is based on arguments such as "cold fusion is pseudoscience" which are not supported by the 2004 DOE panel and peer-reviewed journals. Cold fusion is a scientific anomaly that asks for an explanation, not pseudoscience. It looks much more like the pioneer anomaly than the paranormal or N-ray. The article should reflect that, and the new version goes in that direction. Pcarbonn (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the important difference that nobody denies the existence of the Pioneer anomaly, and it has been independently verified by several separate teams. There is, on the other hand, a considerable body of physicists that does not accept that there are any anomalies associated with cold fusion other than experimental error and, in at least some cases, pathological science. LeContexte (talk) 14:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a difference between people saying that the pioneer anomaly could be caused by observational error, and people saying that cold fusion could be explained by observational error. In that sense, if "nobody denies the existence of the Pioneer anomaly", as you say, then "nobody denies the existence of a cold fusion anomaly". Pcarbonn (talk) 15:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This is really comparing apples and oranges. For example, many of the most fringe-y cold fusion claims of people like Jed Rothwell read like free energy suppression. There seems to be a concerted group of pseudoscientists that have more-or-less co-opted the cold fusion idea and are even now making grandiose claims beyond the sources -- including many that have been promulgated on this talkpage and the talkpages of various editors of this article. Now certainly there are also some fringe theory supporters who include the Pioneer Anomaly on their list of things they can explain with their amazing theory of everything, but there really isn't the same concerted cruft problem that has happened with cold fusion. There are some minor developments that have happened since the FA article that need to be covered (witness the to-do list), but the way to cover them was not in the version that got steadily demoted to B-class. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist and Guy, how come ScienceApologist insults are okay and Jed's are not. Ron Marshall (talk) 16:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It' always the others who are the conspiracists, right? Or does following the "scientific consensus" get you a free pass for accusing others of conspiracy without proving it? (Or removing their work without proving them wrong beforehand?) --Holland-it (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I had no intention of insulting anybody. What I'm trying to say is that the claims made by Jed Rothwell and other supporters of the fringe-theory aspects of cold fusion read differently than those made by the people who include the Pioneer Anomaly in their "theory of everything" productions. So either you think it is an insult to characterize Jed's posts as fringe-y or an insult to state that there are pseudoscientific claims that have been made on this talkpage and on the talkpage of users. I'd like to know which it is so I can amend my statement accordingly. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be curious to see what grade the FA version would get now, and whether it would qualify for FA today. I really doubt it. The level of quality of articles has greatly increased since 2004. For example, the FA version has only 6 sources. Comparing grades of 2004 and of today is really comparing apples and oranges. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that in 2004 Misplaced Pages was not so strict about WP:CITE. What most of the editors here are saying is that even with the increased attention to references in the 2007 version, the article was still significantly worse. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Even if some sections are worse, which I doubt, this does not give you the licence to delete properly-sourced statement from the 2007. Finding adequate sources for the 2004 version, and merging the properly-sourced statement from 2007 into the FA 2004 version would be a very difficult work, in my opinion. It's much easier to improve the 2007 version. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree fully. First of all, just because a statement is properly sourced does not mean it is sacrosanct. We remove properly sourced statements from articles all the time for editorial reasons. What I think we should do is start by sourcing the 2004 FA version paragraph-by-paragraph and then sentence-by-sentence if need be. After that is accomplished we can look at including statements regarding the DOE report, SPAWAR, and the ACS conference. I anticipate those statements to be minimal (no more than one paragraph for each). At that point, we'll have an article of which we can all be proud. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Because the 2004 FA version does not have "sufficient external literature references, preferably from reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (peer-reviewed where appropriate)". As a consequence, it would also get a B grade, according to the assessment scale. So, the fact that the 2007 version has a B grade does not mean that it is of a lower quality than the 2004 version, and that "the quality has degraded". Pcarbonn (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting to see what the reviewer who gave the B-grade has to say, here: he's only asking for some copy-edit. No major POV issue, no issues with the lenght of the sections, ... and no reason to delete any of the well-sourced statements. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

So, should we go to the arbitration committee then ? I'll argue that, by reverting to the 2004 version, you want to delete properly-sourced statement for the purpose of advancing an unsourced POV. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration committee does not handle content-disputes. I say that the 2004 version is better. There seems to be more people who agree with me than agree with you. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

While wikipedia is not a democracy, it would be interesting to know who would like to continue editing from the 2004 version, and who would like to continue editing from the 2007 version. Discussion on the issue should still continue though.

We did this before: Talk:Cold fusion/Archive 11#Survey (request for comment). ScienceApologist (talk) 20:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The 2004 revert was done at the end of September 2006 by ScienceApologist and others. Two years of work were negated for the purpose of information suppression. Now ScienceApologist and others want to negate another year of work for information suppression. This behavior is censorship and it is not NPOV as the description of information suppression above states. Ron Marshall (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Once, again, Ron, you are commenting on contributors rather than content. Cut it out. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, in my not inconsiderable experience, pretty much 100% of allegations of "information suppression" are in fact complaints by fringe believers about WP:NPOV being correctly enforced in articles. Guy (Help!) 23:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit from the 2007 version:

• Pcarbonn Cold fusion is not a fringe or pseudoscience, but a scientific anomaly that begs for an explanation. This is clearly explained in the 2007 version, with sources such as 2007 DOE panel which recommended further scientific research. It is not abandoned and it is developing, as exemplified by the SPAWAR experiment that was discussed at length at the 2007 annual meetings of the American Physical Society, the American Chemical Society and other scientific meetings (see Wired article). The article was demoted to B status for copy-edit reasons, not POV (see here). The reversion to 2004 is supported by unsourced opinions that are contrary to reliable facts. I wish its supporters would provide sources for their statements. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
• Ron Marshall (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit from the 2004 version:

• ScienceApologist (talk) 20:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
• User:Michaelbusch - because the version in recent years has been run over by cold fusion enthusiasts, who claim any attempt to restore this article to the scientific consensus represents 'deliberate suppression'. What would make you accept that there is no cabal? Michaelbusch (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
• Obviously I also support the 2004 version for the reasons stated above; working fomr a FA is always better than working from an article that was demoted from FA due to POV-pushing. In a field which is essentially abandoned and not developing it's a no-brainer. Guy (Help!) 23:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
• JohnAspinall (talk) 02:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Can there be a disambiguation page link here?

There needs to be a link to go to Adobe ColdFusion. -- HAYSON 21:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)  Done Guy (Help!) 00:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk page semiprotected

With due apologies to the few anonymous editors who have been thoughtfully contributing here, I have semiprotected this talk page to prevent the relentless self-promotion and abuse of Jed Rothwell. I can't rangeblock due to likely collateral damage, and he's IP-hopping. The whole talk page will be better off without him right now, I think. Good faith comments for this page posted ot my talk will be brought here as soon as I have time, no doubt other eidtors will be similarly helpful. Jed Rothwell should consider himself topic-banned for a month to let less conflicted editors settle the matter of what to do next. Guy (Help!) 00:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Page now semi-protected

I have reduced protection level on the article to semi. Let's all please renew our efforts to assume food faith on the part of our fellow editors. I think a very good place to re-start is discussing the To-Do list that was mentioned above. Ronnotel (talk) 14:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

BRD cycle revert

I reverted the inclusion of an overview section. I shall now enumerate my problems with this section:

There is a basic question as to whether we need an overview at all. I'm of the opinion that the lead right now does a decent enough job explaining what cold fusion is and providing the appropriate background. Perhaps one or two more sentences can be added or rearranged, but adding an additional section seems to me to be overkill. However, I have provided explanations below for why each of the individual wordings were problematic as well. ScienceApologist (talk) 07:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Overview

When water is electrolyzed in a closed cell surrounded by a calorimeter, all energy transfer can be accounted for using the theories of electricity, thermodynamics and chemistry: the electrical input energy, the heat accumulated in the cell, the chemical storage of energy and the heat leaving the cell all balance out. When the cathode is made of palladium and heavy water is used instead of light water, the same conservation of energy should be observed.

Comments

This seems to me to be a bit much for the article. Explanations of electrolysis should go on the electrolysis page and not on this page. Mentioning that cold fusion was electrolysis with palladium and heavy water should be sufficient. That would only require one sentence, not a paragraph. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

F&P in overview

What Fleischmann and Pons said was that the heat measured by their calorimeter significantly exceeded their expectations in some cases. They calculated a power density over 1 W/cm³ based on the volume of the cathode, a value too high to be explained by chemical reactions alone. They concluded that the effect must be nuclear, although they lacked evidence for it.

Comments

A couple problems here: This should be in a section devoted to Fleidshmann and Pons, not in the overview. Also, I'm not too happy about lenr-canr and newenergytimes being used as sources as they have obvious reliability concerns. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The overview should present succinctly what F&P have reported. The source is not lenr-canr or newenergytimes, but the original paper in Physics Letter A. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Succinctly is the key. An entire paragraph seems like overkill. Also, I'm not convinced that an overview section is needed. WP:MoS seems to be of two minds on the subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a point of clarification here. F&P's original paper is the one in J.Electroanal.Chem., right? The link from the Physics Letters A reference actually points at a reprint labelled as being from The Third International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1991. I am OK assuming that the 3ICCF paper turned into the PhysLettA paper. I am not OK is this one being cited as a fundamental reference for "cold fusion". The word "nuclear" does not appear anywhere in this paper. The word "fusion" does not appear anywhere in this paper (except in the titles of other publications). The whole paper is about the measurement of excess enthalpy, and makes no claims at all about the sources of excess enthalpy. In particular they do not say anything like "a value too high to be explained by chemical reactions alone." What they say is "the specific excess rates are broadly speaking in line with those achieved in fast breeder reactors". That might be considered suggestive, but it is not a clear claim about anything. JohnAspinall (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Physics Letter A paper was provided to support the energy density mentioned in the disputed statement. The rest of the statement should be obvious, but, since you challenged it, it should be better sourced. Sources can be found in the history and the See also sections of the deleted version of the article: the JElectroanal.chem, the press release of F&P, the video of their press conference, and the error they made on the interpretation of gamma spectrum, ...

If you keep putting the NewEnergyTimes POV on this, you are going to see a lot more challenges. P&F did not make an error in the "interpretation" of the gamma spectrum. They published a gamma spectrum which could not have come from a properly calibrated instrument. And if the instrument wasn't properly calibrated, then their claim to have observed the 2.2MeV gamma is invalid. Please understand that there is no "interpretation" involved. The counts come out of the multichannel analyser, and you plot them. All gamma peaks have a nearby Compton_edge. P&F's peak didn't have it. Their spectrum also did not show a separate peak for a nearby gamma that is ubiquitous in the background radiation (it comes from radon decay). While this would normally be way too much detail to include in the article, it is important because this pair of facts was responsible for the balance of judgement shifting to "not real" in the eyes of many. (See e.g. the Ron Parker interview, or Chapter 4 of the Gieryn book.) Now NewEnergyTimes goes beyond POV to falsehood, when they say P&F "corrected" the error in their later paper. Those words were copied into the Misplaced Pages article at one point. JohnAspinall (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

You are right. I should have said "the error they made with the gamma spectrum". Sorry for that. Pcarbonn (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, please understand that the foundation of the field is the observation of unexplained, excess heat. The mechanism that explains it is unknown. A paper that discusses excess heat is in the field of cold fusion, even if it does not talk about fusion. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree. No problem with that. I just want the "it must be fusion" statement to be accurately sourced. JohnAspinall (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Is the video of the press conference not enough ? They clearly propose that nuclear fusion is the origin of the excess heat, if I recall properly. Hence the name of the page. Whether they have put that in a scientific paper, I don't know. In any case, why the question ? Pcarbonn (talk) 21:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the press conference will have to do. What I was looking for was a single citeable reference where P&F say "our reasoning to conclude that it's nuclear fusion, is ...". A press conference doesn't usually permit that degree of technical reasoning. JohnAspinall (talk) 21:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Replication

Others have tried to replicate their observations. Many failed, but some succeeded, using a variety of setups.

Comments

Obvious POV. The idea that "some succeeded" is entirely arguable as seen in the 2004 DOE report, for example. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. They did succeed in replicating their observations. Whether this is proof of cold fusion is another story though, as the 2004 DOE report says. So this is not POV. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

According to them. Of course, according to others there were problems. This is POV because it takes a controversial claim at face-value. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Journals

They reported high power densities in peer reviewed journals such as the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics and the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry.

Comments

Highly contentious. First of all, these peer review journals are, as has been said previously, somewhat out-of-the-way. More than this, we shouldn't be reporting only positive results lest we succumb to publication bias. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Misplaced Pages only requires scientific sources, not top-notch sources. Also, 1989 panel said "Even a single short but valid cold fusion period would be revolutionary. " So it is perfectly valid to report positive results. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No, Misplaced Pages requires reliable sources, and in the case of contentious claims WP:REDFLAG applies. This is a situation where we need better sourcing to come to the appropriate conclusions. These journals may not be good enough. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Review of heat

In the most recent review of the field by the DoE, some researchers believed that the experimental evidence was sufficient to establish the scientific validity of the excess heat effect. Others rejected the evidence, and the panel was evenly split on the issue. This was a significant change compared to the 1989 DoE panel, which rejected it entirely.

Comments

POV-interpretation. The majority of the DOE panel rejected the evidence. To say that "some believed" is to paint a rosier picture than the report gave. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This is simply not correct. Please go back to the 2004 DOE report. Here is the full quote: "The excess power observed in some experiments is reported to be beyond that attributable to ordinary chemical or solid state sources; this excess power is attributed by proponents to nuclear fusion reactions. Evaluations by the reviewers ranged from: 1) evidence for excess power is compelling, to 2) there is no convincing evidence that excess power is produced when integrated over the life of an experiment. The reviewers were split approximately evenly on this topic." So you could also say : "the majority of the DOE panel accepted the evidence. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You know very well that I have read the DOE report, Pcarbonn. While the reviewers were split evenly as to whether there was excess power, this is a technical iteration away from cold fusion, of course, and since systematics are not discussed explicitly in the DOE report it is contentious to include such a statement without the accompanying disclaimer that the DOE report rejected cold fusion interpretations. In effect, what this statement does is mislead the reader into thinking that this statement is something more important than a technicality. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Review of nuclear reactions

The search for products of nuclear fusion has resulted in conflicting results, leading two thirds of the 2004 DoE reviewers to reject the possibility of nuclear reactions.

Comments

Again, a POV-interpretation. Claiming a controversy of "conflicting results" here is something that isn't sourced. To source this, you will need to find a mainstream, uninvolved scientist who reports that the results are indeed "conflicting".

I agree that the wording of the first part could be improved, and better sourced. The DOE part of the statement is correct though.Pcarbonn (talk) 16:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

There is also the issue of 2/3 rejecting the possibility of nuclear reactions. In fact, this is a very stringent rejection and there were less-stringent rejections made as well. Only one reviewer actually supported cold fusion claims. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Navy

In 2006, Pamela Mosier-Boss and Stanislaw Szpak, researchers in the U.S. Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center San Diego, reported evidence of high-energy nuclear reactions concentrated near the probe surface. Based on this work, two other teams have reported similar findings at the American Physical Society meeting of March 2007 (sessions A31 and B31).

Comments

Problematic. First of all, why is a US Navy scientist reporting in a German journal? Seems supicious. Also, we should not user LENR-CANR: there are other neutral archive servers we can use. Finally, almost anyone can report conference proceedings which are not peer-reviewed and are only subject to minimal oversight. What's important is to document the response at the conference -- but this is almost impossible to do. So we should find a neutral third-party journalist who reported on the session if we want to discuss the APS meeting. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Why do you have suspicion in a German journal? Please do not show American bias. Feel free to provide other servers for papers, but that's not a reason to delete the statement. Since when journalists are considered reliable sources on scientific subjects ??? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The US Navy is an American institution. If this was the German Navy then I can see why they would publish in a German journal. Journalists are reliable sources when it comes to reporting on social events which is basically what a conference is. Conference proceedings are the opinions of the attendees and notoriously biased accounts. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Theory

One reason for many to exclude a nuclear origin for the effect is that current theories in physics cannot explain how fusion could occur under such conditions. However, the lack of a satisfactory explanation cannot be used to dismiss the reported evidence. Many theories have thus been proposed, in a continuing effort to explain the reported observations.

Comments

Ridiculously POV. The statement that "the lack of a satisfactory explanation cannot be used to dismiss the reported evidence." might as well read: "mainstream skepticism against cold fusion is wrong." That is completely unacceptable for inclusion here. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. This is your interpretation of the sentence. The sentence is well-sourced from the 2004 DOE, and entirely relevant. We discussed this already. I'm about to raise the issue to the arbitration committee if you still delete it. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't sourced: it is cherry-picking an idea and massaging it to fit a pro-cold fusion POV. This statement is entirely unacceptable. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, MichaelBusch did delete this sentence again., and I have raised the issue to the arbitration committee.

Again, the statement is properly sourced. At the same time, please provide a source saying that cold fusion can be rejected based on a lack of theory. None of the 2004 DOE reviewers have used the lack of theory as a reason for rejection: they are scientists after all. If mainstream skepticism is based on the lack of theory, it is wrong. If wikipedia wants to be a reliable source of information, it cannot represent that view. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Patents

The US Patent Office accepted a patent in cold fusion in 2001.

Comments

Trivia. The US Patent office accepts a lot of dubious patents. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I find this relevant, but won't make a big fuss about it. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Future studies

Still, current knowledge of the effect, if it exists, is insufficient to expect commercial applications soon. The 2004 DoE panel identified several areas that could be further studied using appropriate scientific methods.

Comments

Again, POV. First of all, this is a POV explaining away one of the major criticisms of this endeavor: why isn't cold fusion making us energy right now if it exists? Secondly, the stock phrase about the DOE panels recommendation is throwaway and misses the point that the majority of the panel members were dubious as to the very existence of the effect. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The answer to "why isn't cold fusion making us energy right now if it exists" is that it would take $50 to 100 million only to test its viability and commercial applications, and that they did not get this money (yet). (see Wired article) Pcarbonn (talk) 16:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

There are obviously a lot of people who disagree with this. What I'm saying is that this is serving the purpose of pandering to a pro-cold fusion lobby. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that there are some who will take this as meaning the Government is deliberately suppressing cold fusion research, and others who will apply occam's razor and conclude that nobody thinks this long-shot is worth the price of the research. Given that such a budget would be peanuts to the rewards if it were real, and many companies have incredibly deep pockets, I think the lack of ongoing research is pretty significant, but that's just my supposition. Guy (Help!) 15:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The DOE statement comes from the conclusion of the report: I find it hard to believe that you argue with its reliability, notability or relevance. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This is true, but it is iteratively irrelevant. The DOE panel was charged with answering the question as to what things could be funded. That they answered this question has no relevance to an article on cold fusion. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration

I have now requested arbitration on all the pending subjects. See here.Pcarbonn (talk) 19:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• It will be declined as a content dispute. Guy (Help!) 09:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
  • But you could also try mediation. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:49, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Summarising the relevant scientific papers

Five papers have been listed as finding cold fusion effects. They are all put together in a lump and no-one has gone through them to summarise what they say. And I just searched for "cold fusion" on ISI and found about 150 references of different kinds, from peer-reviewed journal papers to conference proceedings to a couple of recent articles in the scientific magazines that seem to be saying that cold fusion research is "back" (possibly prompted by the appearance of Storms' book). I'm sure that if editors more scientifically literate than me are willing to put in the work, then an article can be written that sums up the current state of the research in a way that will be acceptable to all. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your optimism. I wish you good luck... Pcarbonn (talk) 17:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish you good luck Pcarbonn, since if anyone is going to summarise those papers it will have to be you. It won't be me anyway as I don't have the science background. I'm going to keep the page on watch but all I can do is to help with the spelling, grammar, style and referencing, and to ensure that it remains at least partly accessible to lay readers. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the trust you place in me. Unfortunately, it's taking way too much of my time to defend reliable sources. Because the statements from the 2004 DOE panel are challenged, I don't see how statements from the articles you mention would not be. I can have a better use of my time than arguing about this. If the arbitration committee does not consider the case, and if the position of the other editors does not change, I'll say goodbye to wikipedia. Pcarbonn (talk) 17:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom won't consider the case, for the reasons stated above. NB that WP articles on controversial subjects are usually themselves controversial for a long time, but eventually editors get fed up with the warring and start focussing on improving the article. I was marginally involved with the Islam article which is now a Featured Article - if it can happen there it can happen here. Anyone who wants a page that unequivocally advocates CF or unequivocally debunks it can dream on. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I wish you good luck.

Maybe the drama of all this can be summarized this way. As I contributed to the article, I have had a lot of fun learning about the fascinating field of cold fusion. It progressively became clear to me that cold fusion is a serious scientific question worth of further investigation. I contributed to the article in this direction. Yet, every once in a while, editors that know nothing of the subject come and are surprised to see what's in it. Some rejects it based on their prejudice, and destroy all the work that was done. Others, like you, keep an open mind. Now, it may be your turn to go through the journey I made. If so, I wish you a pleasant experience. Let me know if I can help: I'll be happy to support you. Feel free to look at the version that was reverted: it has all the elements you need to bring the article to FA status. Pcarbonn (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

And after talking to a friend who was part of the original Fleischmann experimental team and is now a full professor at a British university, specialising in electrochemistry and with an international lecture career, numerous patents, many tens of publications in mainstream journals and a standard text published by Oxford University Press - in other words, a person who by any rational criteria could be counted not only an expert in the subject but a particularly well-informed one - I am equally convinced that the main claims made by more recent publications are pure hokum, and that's probably why they are not published by reputable mainstream journals. I am not a believer in the free energy suppression school of conspiracy theorising. You probably worked that out already, of course. Guy (Help!) 19:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

In what I would consider the normal process of science, he would have to go on the record and publish the reasons for his position in a scientific journal. Was his paper also rejected by mainstream journals ? Then, how much credence should he have ? Pcarbonn (talk) 09:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy is just explaining why he personally isn't convinced. Of course a personal conversation with a scientist can't be used as a source for the article. We have to look at the recent papers one by one and find out what they claim. The status of the journals can be ascertained by citation indices. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I must have been mistaken. I thought that wikipedia was based on facts, not opinions. I now realize my mistake. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It's based on sources! Itsmejudith (talk) 12:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Then, please explain to me what's going on on this page, because I don't get it. Pcarbonn (talk) 14:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Pcarbonn, what you don't get is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The probability of deuterons overcoming coulomb repulsion is so small and so well understood that extremely convincing data is required. The JJAP and New Energy Times articles have data which hints at fusion, true, but the burden of proof here is on the side of the fusion advocates. Misplaced Pages is built by editors' opinions, and what you see are the results of many peoples' opinions that electrochemisty-driven fusion is very unlikely in any of these experiments.

I'm curious why we seem to apply double standard. Surely, the pioneer anomaly would require extraordinary proof : it makes the extraordinary claim that the theory of gravitation may need to be revised. What is so extraordinary about the proof of the pioneer anomaly that makes it a valid subject of scientific discourse ? What is missing from the cold fusion proofs ? Pcarbonn (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Something else you might not get is that scientists rarely write papers which disprove other papers. Remember that a scientist's most valuable resource is time, which means that if one thinks certain experiments are a waste of time, they will avoid that field. That is exactly what you see when you compare the number of scientists at prestigious institutions working on conventional fusion issues to the number working on cold fusion issues. The absence of large numbers of papers showing evidence against cold fusion is completely consistent with the scientific process. It should be noted that articles critical of cold fusion have appeared in prestigious journals: Science "DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY: Outlook for Cold Fusion Is Still Chilly" (2004); Nature "The embarrassment of cold fusion"(1990); and Physical Review "Cold fusion: How close can deuterium atoms come inside palladium?"(1989).

If it matters, I have posted previously as 209.253.120.205. I started posted several months ago trying to consider the effect this article would have on a nonexpert wikipedia reader. At that time, the article gave the impression that the chance that electrochemistry-driven fusion is occurring is better than 50%, which is completely against the scientific consensus. The lack of favorable articles in journals like Physical Review, together with the 2004 DOE panel recommending against federal funding are strong indicators that scientific consensus does not believe in the fusion effect.

So where does that leave us? The article should indicate the scientific consensus view while describing the 1989 activities and the post-2004 results. The current article at least does not give the reader an inaccurate view of the scientific consensus. However, it should probably have 2 or 3 references to post-2004 results such as the Navy-related reports. Olorinish (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

To sum up, both sides of the controversy should be presented by reference to papers in peer-reviewed journals or other very good sources. The article should indicate that the current consensus is unfavourable to the idea, but that pro-cold fusion is a notable minority scientific view. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

• Actually it's probably more like a notable fringe view, a notable minority scientific view would be held by a meaningful number of mainstream academics, which this does not appear to be. Guy (Help!) 23:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are misinformed. There is an interesting discussion going on on my talk page. Feel free to participate.Pcarbonn (talk) 08:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

By misinformed, you mean, I take it, informed by those with whose views you disagree. My primary source of information here, as I have said before, was actually active in the original Fleischmann & Pons experiments. Guy (Help!) 18:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be interested to know what this person said that confirmed your conviction that "the main claims made by more recent publications are pure hokum". Hopefully, this will convince me too. Also, would you mind giving us his name ? Pcarbonn (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest not carrying on this conversation as it will lead nowhere. The purpose of the talk page is to discuss how to amend the content of the article, not to argue out the topic of the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Cold Fusion Decision

The practical result of what has been done to the cold fusion article is the public will get misleading information on the current status of cold fusion. Since cold fusion is something that can be a major benefit to the human race, this is a serious error.

I have decided to give up on Misplaced Pages. PCarbon seems to me to have the patience of a saint. PCarbon has told me that he is also quitting Misplaced Pages. I will admit that cold fusion is a complex and unique issue. I think that most people who do not have at least a bachelor’s degree in the physical sciences or engineering would have a hard time grasping it. However there are many notable exceptions to this rule.

Pons and Fleishman made their announcement in March of 1989. The announcement was to protect The University of Utah’s patent rights. Some important information like the palladium alloy they used and the length of time it took to get a result (weeks) were not released to protect patent rights. Many scientists understood the significance of the discovery and scientists all over the world began experiments. Pons and Fleishman had been reproducing the experiment for five years and did not expect the difficulty others would have reproducing the experiment. Expectations were raised very high, and when a lot of positive experimental evidence was not appearing, there was a backlash. In the scientific world editors of journals have a lot of power, since scientists must publish or perish. The editor of Nature and other editors decided that cold fusion could not be real, that it was an embarrassment to science and that it needed to be squelched immediately. They also concluded the end justified the means. The used de facto censorship, name calling, and tried to ruin the careers of people who advanced the cold fusion idea. For this reason many of the scientists who continued to work on cold fusion, were retired, had tenure, or worked in another country where the witch hunt was not active.

Even while this political assault was under way, Nature refused to publish a positive result on the grounds that the issue was already decided. Melvin Miles had an initial negative result which he reported to the DOE committee. The DOE committee told the world about this negative result. When Melvin Miles later reported a positive result to the DOE committee, the DOE committee reported the result to no one.

This is how the “consensus” and de facto censorship came about. Cold fusion was done in by the political method, not by the scientific method.

The experiments have gone on for 18 years. Something like 3500 scientific papers by hundreds of scientists with PhDs in physics and chemistry have been written. Since 1992 nuclear transmutations with unnatural isotope ratios have been found. These nuclear transmutations are proof that nuclear reactions are occurring. More heat, tritium, He3, and He4 has been found. Some x-rays, gamma rays, and charged particles have been found. Reproducibility has improved.

Now some comments about Misplaced Pages. When working on the cold fusion article I have merely tried to include the experimenters’ point of view. I have not tried to censor or delete the skeptics’ point of view. I have tried to create a NPOV article.

I have a problem with some of Misplaced Pages’s rules and how they are applied. The rules do not show a grasp of the scientific method. Misplaced Pages has a nest of self appointed scientific censors that do not have a grasp of the scientific method. The scientific method is that experiment is the reality check of science. The only logical proof against experiment is experimental error. Consensus, existing the theory, and expertise can cast doubt on an experiment, but they are not a logical proof that negates experimental evidence. To imply other wise is a use of the political method. Your “undue” weight rule is seriously flawed. It seems to favor consensus over truth and does not give experimental evidence its proper weight. The principal of “information suppression” is well described in the NPOV Tutorial. Misplaced Pages does nothing to stop “information suppression.” Misplaced Pages claims that NPOV is its highest principal, but it does not enforce it. Apparently consensus is its highest principal. Truth and facts do not make the list. I do not see how content dispute is not a NPOV dispute. I do not see why “information suppression” is allowed under content dispute. “Content dispute” just seems to be a buzz word for doing nothing. I was told by one of your admins that if Misplaced Pages had existed in the Middle Ages, it would say the world was flat. If this is true, you should put this statement on your home page as a warning label.

You seem to be overrun with censors who like to throw around words like pseudoscience, pathological science, proto science, and fringe science. These are nonsense words. There only purpose they serve is political name calling. It is not all that complicated. If you are following the scientific method you are practicing science. If you are not following the scientific method you are not practicing science. If you make mistakes while following the scientific method, you are still practicing science.

There are ways that Misplaced Pages can improve their product. Misplaced Pages could change its rules to incorporate a sense of the scientific method and give experiment its proper weight They could stop using old censorship to justify new censorship. They could bring their nest of scientific censors under control. They could stop publishing articles on controversial science or new science since they cannot do it competently. They could issue warning labels. They could stop “information suppression”. They could enforce NPOV. They could resolve disputes with people who are scientifically knowledgeable and do not have a censorship passion or axe to grind. However Misplaced Pages does not seem to be interested in reform. Ron Marshall (talk) 03:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

For readers' interest, Ron Marshall cross-posted this to the talk pages of the WP Arbitrators, as well. Antelan 03:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• Might be time for an RfC, disrupting Misplaced Pages by aggressive promotion of fringe views is not considered acceptable by the wider Misplaced Pages community. All the above by Ron Marshall is just so much special pleading anyway; you can publish as many papers as you like in the minor journals and you'll still be wasting your time, the mainstream scientific community is highly unlikely to recognise a concept which is not repeated i the major research institutes and is not published in the thought leading journals. I feel Misplaced Pages is being abused here as a way of boosting something beyond its true acceptance in the scientific community, as a way of compensating for the inability or unwillingness to do rigorous enough science to get in the big name journals. Guy (Help!) 18:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Concur with Guy. Michaelbusch (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Mediation would be the obvious next step, as suggested earlier. I can't see any abuse of Misplaced Pages principles. We just need to put aside our differences about the status of the science and state the agreed facts so that readers can decide for themselves. As it stands, we are told that there have been papers in refereed journals reporting findings of effects of cold fusion but we are not given any detail of the content of those papers. Please also remember that a minor journal is exactly that, a refereed journal, although of less standing. There are metrics available to give the precise standing of every journal. We must also be aware of the need to reflect a world view. If every US scientist is steering well clear of cold fusion yet a few labs in Japan are still investigating it, well that is notable and should be described exactly as it is, without any excessive claims or attempts to debunk either. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I did propose mediation a couple of week ago, and I'm still open to it. I'm afraid we can't agree on which facts to include in the article if we can't agree on the status of the science, as shown in the previous conversations. I would recommend to base the article on 2004 DOE review, as the deleted version was: it is better to use such reliable secondary source than the 5 primary sources you suggest. Also, many teams are continuing research in the US. Some US teams presented their results at the 2007 annual meetings of the APS and ACS: SPAWAR Systems Center San Diego, JWK Technologies Corporation, U. C. Berkeley. Other US researchers have presented to the 2004 DOE Panel: MIT, SRI International, George Washington University, Research Systems Inc. Others US companies are known to be working on CF: Lattice Energy, Coolescence, ... Pcarbonn (talk) 16:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

And the minute they publish in Nature, we'll be right there. Guy (Help!) 17:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy, are you really suggesting that the only source you'll accept as reliable is Nature? Ronnotel (talk) 18:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

If it was good enough for Fleischmann and Pons... But no, I will accept any of the highly respected peer-reviewed journals. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, or at least the very highest standards of rigour and fact-checking in the publishing journal. Guy (Help!) 19:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would support inclusion of a summary of the claims in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, an ISI-listed journal. That this research is continuing is a notable fact. The encyclopedia should not of course take a view on whether the claims are proven or not. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a friend who is an academic working in Japan, I will ask him what he thinks of that journal. I am not sure ISI listing is necessarily the benchmark here. Guy (Help!) 00:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

We should also report on this article describing the SPAWAR experiment, published in the European Physical Journal-Applied Physics (0.938 ISI impact factor in the applied physics category). Guy, would you accept that this is a reliable source ? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Checking sources

Checking sources, always a good idea. For example, when the article mentioned the DoE report it linked to what looked as if it was a mirror of the report on lenr-canr.org. I would prefer to link direct to the report on a .gov domain, so I opened the pdf to get the report number and reference. Guess what? The pdf turns out to begin with a polemic by Jed Rothwell. Who, as far as I can tell, linked the thing. I'm also removing copies of copyright works hosted on that site with no evidence of permission. Authors are allowed to distribute copies for private study, but not, as far as I am aware, to release the documents for hosting on websites, the copyright attaches to the publication, as was made clear in the first one I just removed. I do have some experience here, I am on the editorial board of a website that discusses published research in another area; many of the contributors have published papers but we cannot, in most cases, use the originals on the site, we clarified this with our lawyers. Guy (Help!) 17:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the link on the DOE report. The wikipedia policy on copyright says: "However, if you know that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work." Do you know that LENR-CANR violates the rights of the creator ? Please have a look at its home page, which states: "It features a library of more than 500 original scientific papers in Acrobat format, reprinted with permission from the authors and publishers." Do you have evidence that this is incorrect ? If not, please do not remove proper links to articles on lenr-canr.org. Pcarbonn (talk) 16:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The burden of proof, in cases where a site is hosting material not its own copyright, lies with the editor seeking to include such links. Given that at least one link has been manipulated in this way I am not inclined to trust lenr-canr anyway, since the same editorialising could be applied to any of its content and there is no known process of review on that site to prevent it. Actually the onus is always on the editor seeking to include any disputed content within an article to achieve consensus for its inclusion, whihc is the meaning of bold, revert, discuss. So, what evidence do we have that journals are prepared to waive copyright in this way? I think you'll find that the more likely they are to do so, the less willing we should be to accept their papers - no reputable journal of which I'm aware would allow an activist-run website to republish full article text in this way. Guy (Help!) 17:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Mizuno, T. "Experimental Confirmation of the Nuclear Reaction at Low Energy Caused by Electrolysis in the Electrolyte". Proceeding for the Symposium on Advanced Research in Technology 2000, Hokkaido University, March 15, 16, 17, 2000. pp. 95-106
2. Mizuno, T., "Nuclear Transmutation: The Reality of Cold Fusion". 1998, Concord, NH: Infinite Energy Press
3. Miley, G. H. and P. Shrestha. "Review Of Transmutation Reactions In Solids". in Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003. Cambridge, MA.
4. Tina M. Prow, "Harnessing fusion as an energy source", University of Illinois
5. Miley, G. H. and P. Shrestha. "Review Of Transmutation Reactions In Solids". in Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003. Cambridge, MA.
6. Yasuhiro Iwamura, Mitsuru Sakano, and Takehiko Itoh, "Elemental analysis of Pd complexes: Effects of D2 gas permeation", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol 41 (2002) pp4642-4650
7. Taichi Higashiyama, Mitsuru Sakano, Hiroyuki Miyamaru, and Akito Takahashi. "Replication of MHI Transmutation Experiment by D2 Gas Permeation Through Pd Complex". Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003.
8. Iwamura, Y. Observation of Nuclear Transmutation Reactions induced by D2 Gas Permeation through Pd Complexes. in Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2004. Marseille, France.
9. Reviewer #7, "Original comments from the reviewers of the 2004 DOE Cold Fusion review", New Energy Times
10. Storms E, Rothwell, J, "Critique of the DOE review",
11. Bush, R.T. and Eagleton, R.D., "Evidence of electrolytically induced transmutation and radioactivity correlated with excess heat in Electrolytic cells with light water rubidium salt electrolytes", Trans. Fusion Technol., 1994. 26(4T): p. 334, Cited by Ed. Storms
12. Takahashi, A., Ohta, M., Mizuno, T., "Production of Stable Isotopes by Selective Channel Photofission of Pd". Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. A, 2001. 40(12): p. 7031-7046. .
13. Takahashi A. "Mechanism of Deuteron Cluster Fusion by EQPET Model"”. in Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003
14. Widom, Larsen, "Ultra Low Momentum Neutron Catalyzed Nuclear Reactions on Metallic Hydride Surfaces."
    Cited by New Energy Times, "Widom-Larsen LENR Theory"
    See critique in Storms, Edmund (2007). The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing. pp. pp 136-137 and p 177. ISBN 9789812706201. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)
15. Storms, Edmund (2007). The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing. pp. 184–186. ISBN 9789812706201.
16. Storms, Edmund (2007). The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. Singapore: World Scientific Publishing. pp. 180–183. ISBN 9789812706201.
17. Storms E., "Cold fusion: an objective assessment", 2001
18. Swartz, "Phusons in nuclear reactions in solid", Fusion Technology, Vol 31, p 228, March 1997
19. Schwinger, Julian (December 1994). "Cold Fusion Theory: A Brief History of Mine". Infinite Energy. Retrieved 2007-11-30. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
20. Fleischmann and Pons, "Calorimetry of the Pd-D20 System: from simplicity via complications to simplicity", Physics Letter A, Vol 176, pp 118 (1993) , cited by S. Krivit in 2005
21. For example those cited by LENR researchers in 2004 DoE review:
    Y. Arata and Y-C Zhang, "Anomalous difference between reaction energies generated within D₂0-cell and H₂0 Cell", Jpn. J. Appl. Phys 37, L1274 (1998)
    Iwamura, Y., M. Sakano, and T. Itoh, "Elemental Analysis of Pd Complexes: Effects of D₂ Gas Permeation". Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. A, 2002. 41: p. 4642.
    Other:
    Mizuno, T., et al., "Production of Heat During Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, Vol. 39 p. 6055, (2000)
22. For example those cited by LENR researchers in 2004 DoE review:
    M.H. Miles et al., "Correlation of excess power and helium production during D₂O and H₂0 electrolysis using Palladium cathodes", J. Electroanal. Chem. 346 (1993) 99
    B.F. Bush et al, "Helium production during the electrolysis of D₂0 in cold fusion", J. Electroanal. Chem. 346 (1993) 99
23. Szpak, S.; et al. (March 2007). "Further Evidence Of Nuclear Reactions In The Pd/D Lattice: Emission Of Charged Particles" (PDF). Naturwissenschaften. Springer Berlin / Heidelberg. doi:10.1007/s00114-007-0221-7. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
24. Steven Krivit (2007-03-10). "Extraordinary Courage: Report on Some LENR Presentations at the 2007 American Physical Society Meeting". New Energy Times. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
    See also criticism: ""Extraordinary Evidence" Replication Effort". EarthTech.org.
    and response : Steven B. Krivit. ""2007 Galileo Project Report"".
    Kowalski later accepted the nuclear evidence (Luc Kowalski. "A new nuclear process or an artifact?" (PDF).)
25. Cite error: The named reference theory was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
26. Davis, et al. "Electrolysis apparatus and electrodes and electrode material therefor"", U.S. patent 6,248,221, cited by Infinite energy