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::::::We know now that Azizbekov was not a sock of a banned member... he has been banned by the ridiculous accusations brought forward by Grandmaster. But of course, here we have an obvious case of sock puppetry and administrators unsurprisingly remain silent. All the editors implicated (Armenian as much Azeri) have the knowledge to invade checkusers, particularly Adil, and on various occasions it was obvious it was him behind the sock puppetry, even without checkuser confirmation. It is no secret that there is an Atabek and Adil connection, so there should not be any surprise as to why Ehud always appears to give a hand to Atabek, just like when Adil was raining in with sockpuppets to come to Atabek’s defense. - ] (]) 03:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC) ::::::We know now that Azizbekov was not a sock of a banned member... he has been banned by the ridiculous accusations brought forward by Grandmaster. But of course, here we have an obvious case of sock puppetry and administrators unsurprisingly remain silent. All the editors implicated (Armenian as much Azeri) have the knowledge to invade checkusers, particularly Adil, and on various occasions it was obvious it was him behind the sock puppetry, even without checkuser confirmation. It is no secret that there is an Atabek and Adil connection, so there should not be any surprise as to why Ehud always appears to give a hand to Atabek, just like when Adil was raining in with sockpuppets to come to Atabek’s defense. - ] (]) 03:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::Grandmaster, you sound like you have very short memory. It wasn’t until recently that there were such comments and this happening because there are no consequences for what Atabek has been saying and doing for a very long time. And I witness that again you use the “Armenian and Azerbaijani” editors’ card. I don’t get it, why don’t you stick to reporting and start making less offending comments? We compared Armenia with Saddam’s Iraq, which, unlike the claim of a weak Azerbaijani national identity, is not substantiated. Tell me, how was your comparison any less offending when it was those same analogies, which have grown to become comparisons with the NAZIs, which have finally pushed Tigran into making those comments. If you don’t want others to make comments which you find offending, maybe you should also listen to other editors when they find your comments offending. I have not seen you doing anything when Atabek added his stuff in his user page offending Armenian users, he knew they were offending and only removed them when he wanted to comment in the request for arbitration page because he was probably scared to have his recent contributions analysed. - ] (]) 03:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


==TigranTheGreat== ==TigranTheGreat==

Revision as of 03:41, 22 December 2007

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Edit this section for new requests

Mediation by Moreschi on Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles

In thread below, User:Moreschi kindly proposed to mediate and arbitrate in Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. I think it's better if other contributors present their thoughts here in support or opposition of the proposal. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 00:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek's request, and Moreschi's offer (which several users have rejected, considering the existing mediation by Golbez) needs to be considered in its context. The relevant accusations and responses appear on the ANI page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Golbez_and_VartanM), and should be read by those considering Atabek's request. Basically, Golbez has been mediating on the Nagorno-Karabakh article. Following extremely disruptive edits and posts by Atabek, Golbez made it known that Atabek's inputs are not welcome, as they are provocative. As I and other users (such as Steelemate) have stated, fulfilling Atabek's request will be tantamount to rewarding a disruptive editor who tries to push away a mediator with whom he disagrees. Therefore, and given Golbez' current mediation, I and other users have respectfully rejected Moreschi's offer. We may welcome him in the future.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Tigran, what makes you think that you and Steelmate are not disruptive while I am? Just the fact that Golbez and you are on one side of content dispute and I, along with few other contributors, am on the other does not suffice to call me disruptive. So assume good faith. Also, I believe this thread only asked for points explaining the rejection of Moreschi's kind offer (it's not an easy task to mediate and arbitrate this conflict) endorsed by at least 2 administrators at WP:ANI. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Golbez should step down as a mediator on NK and other Armenia - Azerbaijan related articles. So far not a single Azerbaijani contributor agreed to his mediation. I agree that Moreschi or any other third party contributor takes up the role of mediator. Grandmaster (talk) 08:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I am dissatisfied with Golbez's mediation. He frequently resorts to spinosity and can get emotional - something mediators should avoid at all costs. I do not have anything against Moreschi taking over as a mediator. Parishan (talk) 09:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Is Parishan really dissatisfied of Golbez mediation? I wonder when was the last time he was engaged in any mediation to be dissatisfied? His participation on NK was basically reverting to Grandmasters position and sometimes providing a line or two, when he was criticized that he does not comment. Only after Atabek was singled out did he come to contribute there, and his arguments show that he doesn't even understand what the problem was really about.
This mentality of taking sides, Azerbaijani’s on one side and Armenians on the other isn’t helping anyone. If someone has the right to criticize Golbez's mediation, that person has to actually be engaged in the mediation process, those who were there when Francis and Golbez settled the issue before Atabek came and screwed it up. Coming here and claiming that his dissatisfied on a mediation that he wasn't even involved with besides a few comments which were already repeated by another contributor, doesn’t in any way weight in when commenting about Golbez's participation.
The point has been made, so why does Parishan continues pulling Golbez's foot? I think administrators should first understand the rational of Atabek's illogical, irrational requests. It won't be the first nether the last time contributors like Atabek pushed members to the extreme. VartanM (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm quite happy with Golbez's mediation. He has solved long running issues and is very well familiar with the conflict and the history of the situation, his neutrality has only been challenged by pov pushers. Switching to another mediator will not be constructive.-- Ευπάτωρ 10:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
That's not what I proposed. I'm also quite happy with Golbez's mediation. I'm more worried about everywhere else - the locus of dispute is not restricted to just this one article. Moreschi 10:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I would also be happy with word "mediation" applied in Golbez case, if someone could explain what mediation actually means, other than what is defined in the relevant article: "Mediation, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), aims to assist two (or more) disputants in reaching an agreement.". It's clear from his edits and talk page comments, and the whole "raving maniacs" thing, that, with all due respect, he is more a disputant (within definition given above) than a mediator. Can we bring this to some formal board where a decision can be taken on who should actually mediate the articles? Because as of now, a group of users is refusing to contribute to the articles due to Golbez's activity, and when independent arbitrator like Moreschi offers his services, another group rejects for not quite detailed reasons but that it simply wants to continue "pushing POV". Atabek (talk) 11:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, my comment on Golbeze's page was simply the product of you calling him an pro-Armenian, interested only listening to the Armenians. Same applies to the bazaar comment. I was under the impression that if I really started pushing POV just the way you claim that I do. And if it were anywhere near the level of your own pushed POV maybe then, the mediators would be able to reach a consensus and not be called pro-Armenian. I quickly changed my mind about that theory, for the simple reason that the last thing this project needs is another destructive user. And by destructive, I mean someone who is able to halt any productive discussion by driving the mediator to the point of snapping and then reporting him to ANI . VartanM (talk) 22:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
And I never rejected Moreschi's offer. The more neutral eyes we have on AA articles the better. Maybe then the compassions of NK to the Nazis will end. Also I didn't see you complaining about Golbez when he protected the Shushi article on a "right version". That wasn't really a pro-Armenian was it? VartanM (talk) 01:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

When you behave like a raving maniac, a moderator needs to point that out. He is doing you a favor, so you will step away and not sabotage the efforts of your fellow editors. Sometimes I get short breath just by reading your incessant tirades against your opponents. It's good if someone tells you to calm down and stop screaming.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I am in favor of having any impartial mediator. So far, Golbez has not proven to be one. All of the above clearly indicate quite the opposite. I am for Moreschi's help. --Ehud (talk) 01:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Banned members have no say in this. You are banned so you should learn to face it. - Fedayee (talk) 03:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM

User:VartanM is a party to ArbCom He has recently pushed the limit, by attacking a whole ethnicity again: :

  • "Atabek its clear to me that Azeris have a bazar mentality in negotiations. As in you tart with your own ridiculously high price and wait for the Armenian to come up with its own ridiculously low price, go back and forth until a medium is reached then call it a deal. What has happened so far is that Azeris came up with the high price, but we the naive Armenians ask for the medium price right from the start, Azeris get confused and think that the medium is the low price and push for more."

I am not sure how long and how many times will this Arbitration Committee condone VartanM's attacks and the attack by TigranTheGreat like reported below on other contributors along ethnic lines and allow generalizations such as above. These contributors have been warned already at several instances.

No one likes being insulted or attacked for free contributions to 💕 at own time and leisure. I hope Arbitration Committee will take this into consideration. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Chaps, attacking an ethnicity is only indirectly a violation of Misplaced Pages policy, but it's annoying and not something we want to see too much more of (Misplaced Pages ain't a soapbox either).
And, yes, Vartan, please don't do that. Nobody should. It's not much of a policy violation but it really does not help with the atmosphere around here, which is quite toxic enough as it is. There'd be no point browbeating an apology out of you, but please restrain from making such similar statements in the future. You're a classier sort of gentleman than that. Moreschi 19:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement is getting stupidly clogged up with your battles. At the moment it ain't all really working, I think you'll both agree. Perhaps we need a new approach. Here's an idea. I'll be full-time mediator and admin-enforcer to the Armenia-Azeri fights for a fortnight. If you accept, fine. If so, however, we're going to have work out a system whereby I get told where the latest fights are breaking out, because I haven't got every single Armenia-Azeri article listed. Moreschi 19:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Moreschi, I think that would be great if you could dedicate some time to Azeri-Armenian articles. I will be more than glad to cooperate in your efforts. Keep me informed, and I can provide you with a list of all disputed articles.

But for this particular case, I also want to request that VartanM be demanded an apology for insulting an entire ethnicity. It's really inappropriate and every time he makes a violation and is given a green light, just because it's reported by opposite side, he continues similar attacks next time. Atabek (talk) 19:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry to report this also, but VartanM engaged in another attack along ethnic and personal lines against User:Ehud Lesar. Perhaps, he needs to be explained to calm down. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to calm down. Just today you have already alienated one admin (Golbez) with your hyperventilating style of argumentation. Going around and accusing all your opponents in "attacking along national lines" is disruptive and annoying. Vartan made a simple point--User Ehud's behavior strongly suggests that he is a sock of Adil, and as such, he is impersonating someone having a Jewish name. Unless Ehud wants to bring up the issue himself and subject himself to checkuser, you need to move on and stop your disruptive behavior. --TigranTheGreat (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Tigran, if VartanM is not "attacking along national lines", why is User:Ehud Lesar's ethnic background is even a subject of discussion in Misplaced Pages? Does any Misplaced Pages rule proclaim that the user must state his ethnicity or be claimed as a sock otherwise? There is a simple method for proving a contributor is a sock of another - filing a checkuser. Is it really so much harder than assuming so much bad faith? Atabek (talk) 12:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Here's more, a personal attack on Atabek, accusations of trolling, etc. Quote: Atabek is clearly trolling and baiting you to say things that you wouldn't normally say. My advise is to ignore him, but if it continues you can report him to the administrators at WP:ANI. Also, constant accusations of User:Ehud Lesar being a sock of banned user Adil is another personal attack. VartanM knows very well that checkuser proved that Ehud and Adil are not related, but keeps attacking Ehud on any occasion. How many warnings can one person be given? I think it is time Vartan stops attacking other users, whom he happened to disagree with. Grandmaster (talk) 08:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, you're also a part of ArbCom and how many times you attacked Armenian side with the words like "separatists", "ethnic cleansings" etc (last time 2 days ago at Talk:Shusha)? and your last "editions" at Baku: after the Black January pogroms when the whole Armenian population fled the city its even very hard for you to see the word Armenian there in the article- when a prominent person from Baku was really an Armenian and in some cases was pressed to leave Baku like Armenian-Jewish Kasparov and his family? What about tolerance? Pls try to be more tolerant before asking about other users! Andranikpasha (talk) 13:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, since when the words "separatist" and "ethnic cleansing", with listed facts and references in historical debate, are considered an attack? And Kasparov is a prominent person, not because he is from Baku and not because he is Armenian-Jewish, but because he became a chess grandmaster. And by the way, before Black January pogroms, Kasparov received education in Baku, elevated and paid for all his chess tournaments up to championship by no one other than the leader of Azerbaijan Heydar Aliyev. And by the way, when Armenians were leaving on ships or trains prior to Black January, Kasparov was chartering a comfortable plain for his family to leave to Moscow, safely, escorted from Baku airport. And by the way, if you look at my edits at Baku, I removed most Azerbaijani ethnic classification from prominent people listings as well. The article is about the city of Baku and prominent people from the city, not about their ethnic backgrounds. So WP:AGF. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 13:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher131, may I remind you about few comments for which I was blocked before, links listed here: , . Perhaps, you could look at both links and since you don't find anything actionable in VartanM's "Azeris have a bazar mentality in negotiations" and "Atabek is clearly trolling and baiting you to say things that you wouldn't normally say", explain me what was "actionable" in what I said then? Atabek (talk) 11:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Different admins have different standards. It is obvious in context that VartanM meant bazaar, not bizzare, and it was a comment on negotiation tactics. I could adopt the view that every talk page comment that said "the people all do this" is a personal attack and ban the whole damn lot of you. Certainly a more aggressive enforcement approach would fall on you as well. Thatcher131 14:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The thing is that I don't remember a single instance of any Azerbaijani user making generalizing comments about the Armenian people. I don't remember any Azerbaijani user ever saying "you Armenians are this and that". Previous report was dealing with comments of TigranTheGreat about the modern Azerbaijani people, to whom he referred as "so called Azerbaijanis" "with fictional ethnic identity", etc. It was not a matter of historical dispute, into which some users managed to change the discussion. If such remarks about the whole people are acceptable here, then everyone should feel free to make similar comments without the risk of being sanctioned. It is not even a matter of enforcing the arbcom decisions, it is more about the general atmosphere in talk pages, which keeps on deteriorating. I believe some sort of a general warning should be given to make users refrain from such inflammatory statements. Grandmaster (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Grandmaster. Such statements on a certain ethnicity indicate ethnic harted. I think VartanM should apologize for his unfair remarks about Azerbaijanis. Ethnic hatred should not be tolerated by admins in Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, Tigran should file a checkuser on my account along with people who think alike, if that makes him this worried that I am Adil Bagirov. So, Tigran and others, just stop talking and use your time to file a checkuser instead. Or, is it better for you that I am not checked so that you keep repeating the same melody over and over? I think the latter option suits your interests well and that's why you're inactive. --Ehud (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
It has been already demonstrated that your persona is a fake one. We will all treat you as Adil because you are Adil. It was already pointed out that Lesar is Sephardic not Ashkenazi. It is unlikely that any Jew will ever support the claim that a few deaths amount to genocide and even to reply to an objection to the ridiculous comparison between Auschwitz and Khojaly by supporting the one who made such a ridiculous, plain and pathetic comparison.
No Jew will have any interest at calling Sevan (in the republic of Armenia) by its "Azerbaijani" name, or it being Azerbaijani land... all of which are claims exclusively made by Adil Baguirov.
We know now that Azizbekov was not a sock of a banned member... he has been banned by the ridiculous accusations brought forward by Grandmaster. But of course, here we have an obvious case of sock puppetry and administrators unsurprisingly remain silent. All the editors implicated (Armenian as much Azeri) have the knowledge to invade checkusers, particularly Adil, and on various occasions it was obvious it was him behind the sock puppetry, even without checkuser confirmation. It is no secret that there is an Atabek and Adil connection, so there should not be any surprise as to why Ehud always appears to give a hand to Atabek, just like when Adil was raining in with sockpuppets to come to Atabek’s defense. - Fedayee (talk) 03:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, you sound like you have very short memory. It wasn’t until recently that there were such comments and this happening because there are no consequences for what Atabek has been saying and doing for a very long time. And I witness that again you use the “Armenian and Azerbaijani” editors’ card. I don’t get it, why don’t you stick to reporting and start making less offending comments? We compared Armenia with Saddam’s Iraq, which, unlike the claim of a weak Azerbaijani national identity, is not substantiated. Tell me, how was your comparison any less offending when it was those same analogies, which have grown to become comparisons with the NAZIs, which have finally pushed Tigran into making those comments. If you don’t want others to make comments which you find offending, maybe you should also listen to other editors when they find your comments offending. I have not seen you doing anything when Atabek added his stuff in his user page offending Armenian users, he knew they were offending and only removed them when he wanted to comment in the request for arbitration page because he was probably scared to have his recent contributions analysed. - Fedayee (talk) 03:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

TigranTheGreat
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

User:TigranTheGreat, a party to two ArbCom cases , , has been placed under supervised editing per most recent ArbCom. He has recently violated the remedy by editing the talk page of Armenian-Tatar massacres 1905-1907 in an offensive manner directed:

  • a) against a nationality - with remarks like: "...Italians and Germans. These two nationalities were well developed ethnic groups..." and "The loss of Nagorno-Karabakh alone presents a very real fear to so called "Azerbaijanis" about losing their own identity"
  • b) against another contributor - .

Thanks. Atabek (talk) 16:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Extended Discussion
The following is a discussion that has been placed in a collapse box for improved usability.


I'm unsure that saying Azeris weren't a well-developed ethnic group at a certain time is a violation. El_C 16:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
El C, ethnic groups cannot be well or underdeveloped, saying so maybe considered a racist generalization remark. This is especially emphasized by the subsequent reported sentence calling "so called Azerbaijanis". The nations and countries can be well or underdeveloped but not ethnic groups. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
But how about referring to modern day Azerbaijanis as "so called Azerbaijanis"? Is it Ok to make such comments about other ethnic groups in Misplaced Pages? Grandmaster (talk) 17:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's okay. By which I mean, that would be a problem. El_C 17:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm a bit impatient about (seemingly) rhetorical questions. I should not have been the one to respond to this. I'll go do something else now. El_C 17:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

At any case, I dropped the user a note. El_C 17:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope this will resolve the problem. Grandmaster (talk) 17:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Saying that "Azerbaijanis" have underdeveloped national identity is well supported in literature and is quite relevant to the topic. It's an artificial term of purely political origin applied to a non-existent nationality. Now, again, if Grandmaster can refer to the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic as "separatists," "non-existent state," or "illegal entity," we need to be able to state the relevant opinions on "Azerbaijanis."--TigranTheGreat (talk) 01:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I hope the admins will pay attention to the above inflammatory and nationalistic comment (and the one below on the thread about Atabek) by TigranTheGreat. This is not the first instance of him making such comments, but so far he received nothing but a warning. Grandmaster (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
And any parallels with my statements about NK are out of place, they are not directed against the Armenian people, and are merely the repetition of the position of the international community, which cannot be anti-Armenian, see these: This is just an attempt to distract attention from his unacceptable remarks about other ethnic groups. Grandmaster (talk) 05:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

And I merely repeat what other scholars, including well-respected ones in the West, have said about the "Azerbaijanis." Here is, for example, Patricia Carley of the United States Institute of Peace:

The knowledge that they essentially lost that war has led the Azeris to be fearful of the possibility that their nation could disintegrate, beginning with the loss of Karabakh. They thus believe the future of their integrity as a people lies in the favorable resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute. This feeling is intensified by the Azeris’ relatively underdeveloped sense of nationhood. Armenians very likely do not appreciate the extent to which Azeris believe their very existence to be threatened by the notion of independence for Nagorno-Karabakh. http://www.usip.org/pubs/peaceworks/pwks25/keypts25.html

The fact that what we refer to as "Azeris" is a group with underdeveloped identity is well known. In fact, it's been suggested that the only thing holding them together as a coherent group is their defeat in the Nagorno-Karabakh war. These statements are quite relevant to the discussion on the "Armenian-Tatar Massacres" article. The discussion is on whether we should call the culprits of massacres "Azeris" or Tatars." Just because Grandmaster disagrees with this opinion and agrees with his own views on Nagorno-Karabakh is irrelevant here--it's a content dispute.

If on the other hand, we are to exclude opinions (whether we agree or disagree with them) that some may find offensive, then Grandmaster has to stop making his comments about Nagorno-Karabakh. Some Armenians find such comments offensive, and have requested Grandmaster to stop making them (recently, on the Shusha Talk page ), which he has ignored. If, on the other hand, he wants to continue expressing such opinions, then he cannot complain about others stating the truth that he finds unpleasant.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 10:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You said that Azerbaijanis are "non-existent nationality". Is this a scholarly accepted fact or your personal belief? Grandmaster (talk) 11:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Just as you believe that Nagorno-Karabakh is a non-existent state, I believe that "Azerbaijanis" are a non-existent nationality. It's based on scholarly literature. As I have explained before, "Azerbaijani" is a fictional identity concocted by pan-Turkic and later Soviet ideologists for political reasons. The fact that this particular group has a weak sense of identity, as stated by Western analysts, is a further evidence of this. The real Azerbaijanis are those living in Iran--in fact, they are part of the Iranian cultural environment quite unconnected with the so-called "Azerbaijanis" north of Arax (for example, they are quite friendly with the Armenians, helping NKR overcome the effects of the blockade). My belief is that nationalists and ideologists should leave these people alone and let them determine their own identity.

Now, if you want us to be sensitive to your feelings, then you need to stop making comments about Nagorno-Karabakh that some find offensive. You can't have it both ways.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 11:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to note that the opinion of Carley is merely a repetition of the opinion of the Armenian scholar Ronald Suny, which she openly admits: A factor involved in this fierce determination to preserve their territorial integrity, suggested Suny, is the weak or underdeveloped sense of nationhood among Azeris. De-jure non-existence of NK as an independent state is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the international community, while your personal perception of Azerbaijani people as non-existent or whatever is purely a racist remark. Grandmaster (talk) 12:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The international community does not say NK is non-existent or illegal, just that it's unrecognized. Your statements on its "non-existence" and "illegality" are your own POV conclusions. Now, whether opinions are supported by international community or individual scholars is irrelevant here--it's a content dispute. If you can state your POV in a discussion, then so can others, even if you find the truth uncomfortable.

I am not saying the people of Azerbijan are individually underdeveloped or genetically inferior. I am just saying they, as a whole, are underdeveloped as a national group--a statement which is supported by Patricia Carley. So, it's not racist, it's just the truth. And I wouldn't bring it up unless you didn't claim that "Azerbaijanis and Tatars are the same people." When you make a false claim, I have to be able to challenge it.

By the way, Patricia Carley does not quote Suny (an American scholar, who merely happens to be ethnically Armenian) when stating her opinions on the "Azerbaijani" identity. She makes perfectly clear when she quotes Suny.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 12:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The international community does say that NK authorities are illegitimate and refers to them as separatists, see these statements by EU and PACE. In particular, PACE says: “Considerable parts of the territory of Azerbaijan are still occupied by Armenian forces, and separatist forces are still in control of the Nagorno-Karabakh region”. Whether you like that or not, that’s not my personal opinion, and it is not offensive to the Armenian people in general, and I never heard of either organization being ever accused of anti-Armenian sentiment. Your references to Azerbaijani people in general as “so called” and “non-existent”, etc cannot be compared with the references to separatist movements. They are inflammatory and repeated in defiance of the request by the admin. Grandmaster (talk) 13:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"does not recognize the legitimacy of elections" doesn't mean "NK is an illegal and non-existent entity." As for "separatists," when you use the term outside quoted texts, then you adopt it. Armenian users have pointed to you that they find your use of the term offensive. You are free to refer to NKR simply as "Nagorno-Karabakh" or "unrecognized state." You chose to use the terms mentioned earlier, which is in defiance of requests made to you.

Discussions on talk pages are meant to contain opinions of the parties. Whether an opinion is supported by the "international community" does not make it any less inflammatory. Nor is such support relevant here--this is not a forum to discuss content disputes. The only issue is whether members find some opinions offensive. If you don't want to read opinions offensive to you, then you either agree to refrain from opinions offensive to others, or you avoid bringing the subject matter into discussion.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again, referring to separatist authorities as such is not a racial slur, whether someone likes it or not, unlike your comments, which are directed against all people of certain ethnicity. Grandmaster (talk) 15:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Tigran, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, in which you're under supervision not to edit in a manner offensive to other contributors (in this case of Azeri nationality) and in good faith. And it does not matter if you cite Armenian Ronald Grigor Suny to justify your offensive claims, because such citations of yours would be similar to citing Vasili Velichko to judge the genetic makeup and claim the underdevelopment of Armenians, or Adolph Hitler in justifying anti-Semitic views in abstract case. Please, assume good faith. Atabek (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You and Grandmaster are under the same supervision as well. If you express inflammatory opinions about Nagorno-Karabakh, then others are free to express their opinions on the underdeveloped nature of so-called "Azerbaijanis" in a discussion. The discussion is on whether the Tatars can be called Azerbaijanis, and the artificial nature of the Azerbaijani identity is crucial to the debate. It is by no means racist--I am not saying each individual "Azerbaijani" is inferiour--only that the group as a whole is lacking a well-developed identity. This is a well known and quoted fact. The modern descendants of Tatars cannot even decide whether they are Iranian or Turkic, obviously they cannot be assumed to possess a clear national identity. If you find this offensive, then you need to agree not to express opinions offensive to others. --TigranTheGreat (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I highly doubt that Patricia Carley, a modern Western analyst working for the United States Institute of Peace, can be compared to Adolf Hitler. Please refrain from making misleading comments, and assume good faith.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 16:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, lets to not compare Armenian-American prominent historian with... Hitler. Pls assume good fight and more tolerance to Armenian side! I just want to remind how many times you deleted quotes by foreign scolars and added an Armenian-American historian (Hovhannisian) as a source for Armenian-Azerbaijani topics at Shusha, just cuz it seems to be biased pro-Azeri. Was it ok? Andranikpasha (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I think at this point it is better to wait for an admin assessment of Tigran's comments. Grandmaster (talk) 05:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

We could also wait for assessment of your continued inflammatory comments. And your defiance of requests made to you to stop them.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 09:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't remember any admin asking me about that. Grandmaster (talk) 10:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You were asked by Armenian users. You showed disregard for fellow Wikipedians. And you continue to do so.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 14:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

"Separatists" was not the right term from the beginning. "Irredentists" should have been the one. Anyway, but saying that "there is no Nagorno-Karabakh nation" is not the same as saying "there is no such a nation as Azerbaijanis". Current population of Nagorno-Karabakh are ethnically the same Armenians as those in Glendale or Marselle, Yerevan or Beyrut. "Azerbaijanis" often referred by Armenians as "Turks", are not exactly same as those in Turkey. There is a formed nation from 16th century onwards, which had many names throughout the centuries and got the name "Azerbaijanis" or "Azeris" in 20th century. Whether you like it or not, whether you believe in that or not, this is the reality and you have to accept it. They may be divided, half living in the Caucasus, half in Iran, but ethnically they are the same people. I may understand pro-Kasravis and pro-Pahlavis saying "there is no Azerbaijanis", but I really do not understand the logic of Armenians who say "there is no Azerbaijanis" or refer to them as "so called Azerbaijanis" If you deny the existence of force that fought with your people over Nagorno-Karabakh, then whom did you fight with? I am not asking you to write here what you think about them, but you have to accept how they name themselves. It is your business how you call them among yourselves, in your own language, but this is the name how we're "registered" at the U.N., CoE, libraries and univesities, encyclopedias and textbooks, known in English language. You have to use this name to approach us or call us. If I am asked to identify a nation living next to my borders in the English language, I have to say "Armenian", not "ermeni" as I do in my own language. There are Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh. There are no "Nagorno-Karabakhis" in Nagorno-Karabakh. May be in 100 years from now, there will be a new ethnicity formed which will be different from the Armenians living in Yerevan, but until it is accepted by the academic world, I cannot claim or do so - I have to refer to recognised literature for that. --Aynabend (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually we have no obligation to follow the opinion of the UN, at least not in the discussion pages. We don't require you to use the term Armenian Genocide, as we realize it can be uncomfortable for you. As for the "Azerbaijanis," I hope you know that the so called "Azerbaijani literature," at least prior to 1919, was purely Turkmen in origin. I therefore don't see how we can talk about a "formed nation of Azerbaijanis," especially in the 16th century. The modern remnants of Tatars living in the Republic of Azerbaijan are a conglomerate of Turkic speaking groups with little national identity, and have been so for centuries. Imposing the fictional label "Azerbaijani" doesn't change this fact. And I am not sure what you mean by Nagorno-Karabakh fighting a "force"--NKR merely crushed the Republic of Azerbaijan, so any mention of a "force" here is meaningless and irrelevant. Plus, just because the Baku regime made these unfortunate people go into a disastous war doesn't mean they actually share a single clear national identity.

As for the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, you cannot say that your offenses are better and therefore allowed. NK is an Armenian state, it's part of the Armenian homeland, and Armenians hold it dear to heart. Any derogatory comments about that state can be deemed offensive by Armenian users.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


Not "Turkmen", but "Turkman" or "Turkoman" is what you mean. There were other names, such Kizilbash, Qaraqoyunlu, Akkoyunlu. These were the names that this people used to name themselves throughout these centuries. The last name used by this people prior to 19th century was "Moslem". "Tatar" or "Tartar" was the name used by outsiders. It was used simultaneously along with "Azerbaijani Tatars" or just "Azerbaijanis" already in 19th century by the Russian ethnographers, such as M.N. Makarov. There are many nations in the world who have been named differently throughout the centuries and today if you tell a German that the Prussians were not Germans, they will laugh at you. "Armenian Genocide" unlike "Azerbaijanis" is not used or recognized by the U.N. or CoE, OSCE. If it was ever used in their official documents, then we would probably refer to it in this list and recognize it. What I meanby "force" is that the war is not over and there is still a danger that it would start again, according to ICG. NK Army, or Armenian forces, unlike us who had a more promising support from the Russians, was not the winner in the battles. There were times in winter of 1993 and spring of 1994, when NK Army was retreating and leaving behind significant territories. There was a time in 1992, when Azerbaijani Army was standing only 5 kms of Khankendi or Stepanakert. You never know how this situation can change. Therefore, it is always a good tactic in wars to know and respect the enemy, and not use a denial. You perfectly know that in 1905 both sides gave victims and it was a senseless clash, according to the same Armenian sources invoked by the Czarist Russia (See James Henry book from 1905). By saying that the people who fought with Armenians in Baku in 1905 were the descendants of Tatars you are only deceiving yourself. You perfectly know who they were. --Aynabend (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The abundance of names used for the nomadic Turkic tribes in Caucasus is a further indication that these tribes and their modern Tatar descendants in Azerbaijan have lacked a national identity. I understand that this may be difficult to admit by the "Azerbaijanis," given the fictional theories fed to them by the Baku regime, but we need to call things by their names. As for your account of Azerbaijan's defeat, it's a well known fairy tale invented by the Azerbaijani propaganda machine to cover the country's humiliation. It still does not change the fact that Azerbaijan suffered a devastating defeat at the hands of Nagorno-Karabakh. Russia equally helped both Armenians and the Azeris. In fact, it's a well known fact that the only reason Armenians retreated in 1992 is that they were faced with an overwhelming number of Russian merceneries. Western sources describe the Armenian advances as "armed tourism"--they followed the usual pattern of Armenians advancing and the Azeri army escaping the battlefield. The only reason the Azeris lost is that they were forced to fight for a land that was not their own, coupled with their underdeveloped national identity and unity. So, your attempt to prove the existence of a fictional "Azerbaijani" identity by their "fight" against Armenians is incorrect.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Aynabend, there's no need to turn this into ethnographic dispute. The problem here is with Tigran's comments, and those comments being a problem was acknowledged by the admin above. They are clearly based on ethnic prejudice and are offensive to the entire Azerbaijani people. Misplaced Pages is not a place where such behavior is appreciated. I'm still waiting for the admin take on the situation. Grandmaster (talk) 10:05, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually the problem is that you, Atabek, and now Aynaberd continue making comments that you have been told to be problemating, and that you continue to disregard the concerns of your fellow Wikipedians. Certainly that's not a behavior appreciated in Misplaced Pages. I generally wouldn't bring up the delicate issues surrouding the "Azerbaijani" identity and the NK War, but when you make false claims on talk pages and here regarding Tatars and the war, then I have to point out why they are inaccurate. If you and your fellow Azeri members do not like the subject matter, then you need to stop pursuing them.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 10:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, calling another user "ethnically prejudiced," as Grandmaster did above, is a blatant personal attack against another user, which is a grave violation of Misplaced Pages policies. It seems Grandmaster's behavior has progressed from making comments offensive to Armenians, to downright attacks against the person of another Misplaced Pages user.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 12:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't distort my words. I did not call you ethnically prejudiced. I said that your comments are based on ethnic prejudice. That's a different thing. Grandmaster (talk) 14:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
But then again, Tigran, you just said that the Azerbaijani ethnic identity is "fictional". Do you think that it is OK to make such comments about the entire people? Grandmaster (talk) 14:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I say nothing that academic sources haven't already said about Azerbaijan's population. Even western sources consider "Azeris" to have an "underdeveloped national identity," which is in a very real danger of disintegration due to loss of Nagorno-Karabakh.. As much as you may find the truth uncomfortable, we can't deny it. And the only reason I have brought it up is to refute your claims about the identity and naming of Tatars in the "Armenian-Tatar conflict" article.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 16:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Azerbaijanis being a "fictional identity" supported by academic sources? Even Suny does not say that. Grandmaster (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as identities go, it's a weak and unclear one. Scholars agree. Here are a few more, in addition to Patricia Carley:

"Azerbaijani fear of Armenians was further inflated, ironically, by the relative weakness of Azerbaijani identity as compared to Armenian One" (S.Kaufmann, Modern hatred, Cornell University Press, 2001. See page 58.)
"In the case of the third major ethnic group of South Caucus, the Azerbaijanis, the path towards nationhood was strewn with obstacles. First, there was uncertainty about Azerbaijani ethnic identity, which was a result of the influence of Azerbaijani’s many varied Russian conquerers"(B. Fowkes, "Ethnicity and Ethnic Conflict in the Post-Communist World," Palgrave Macmillan, 2002. See page 68)
"Despite these myths, the historical and cultural elements of which the ex-Soviet Azerbaijanis are most proud, such as being the land of Zoroaster and the poet Nizami, have distinctly Iranian origins and character. Ironically the realization of this fact, rather than bringing the ex-Soviet Azerbaijanis closer to Iran, has had the opposite effect. This is because Azerbaijanis feel that the Iranian connection would hamper the development of an independent Azerbaijani identity – and , as far as some are concerned, a purely Turkic identity."(David Menashri, "Central Asia Meets the Middle East," Routledge, 1998. See page 107)
"In Contrast with the Armenians, the Azerbaijani national identity is very recent. In fact, the very name "Azerbaijani" was not widely used until the 1930s; before that, Azerbaijani intellectuals were unsure whether they should call themselves Caucasian Turks, Muslims, Tatars or something else." (S.Kaufmann, Modern hatred, Cornell University Press, 2001. See page 56.)

--TigranTheGreat (talk) 20:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the last quote and the subject we discuss (who were these Tatars who clashed Armenians in 1905?), there is no direct correlation between the changing names of an ethnicity throughout the centuries and existence or non-existence of national identity. National identity in the same time does not have a unique and standard formula. Modern Azerbaijanis' identity started to shape in 13 century with Heterodox Shia Islam, was strengthened in 16th century by a state religion and unified state and started to disappear with the wars of 19th century wars and annexation by Russian Empire. In the Soviet era it changed its form or died for 70 years. Current status I agree is unclear. But this does not change the fact that the Turkoman in 13-15 centuries, Tatars in 1905, Caucasian Turks in 20's, or Azerbaijanis in the 20th century were/are the same people, same ethnicity. I think there is no need for further discussions. I am ready to give my consent to link this article to the articles related to modern Tatars of Kazan and Crimea. Let them solve their “old problems”. --Aynabend (talk) 22:49, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Tigran, there is a poem of the greatest and perhaps the most renowned Russian poet of XIXth century, Alexander Pushkin, associating in his words the Armenians with thieves and cowards ("Поди ты прочь - ты мне не сын. Ты не чеченец - ты старуха. Ты трус, ты раб, ты армянин."), in fact, here is the link to Roland Grigor Suny's book reciting that same quote . While this is a referenced source, it's still an insult against an ethnicity, and it does not establish basis for any Misplaced Pages contributor to use these words as evidence in articles about Armenians or even further, like yourself, argue for their justification. So, as you have been explained above, assume good faith and stop insulting people's ethnic identity by spending time to look for such sources. Atabek (talk) 05:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, then, tell that to Parishan who used a sole source to claim that Azerbaijani is a Langua franca, by an Armenophobe author who calls Armenians parasites in the same article. Don't use double standards and delete the Parishan addition yourself. Beside, are you comparing some deluded poet with a position which holds consensus in the academia? VartanM (talk) 06:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, given your active Wiki involvement recently, have you been removing/editing/disputing the ethnicity insulting edits of TigranTheGreat? Provided not so, I would recommend that you also assume good faith. And I think calling a literary giant like A. S. Pushkin a deluded poet may sound a bit insulting to the history of Russian literature, moreover, comparing him to a far less known R. G. Suny, who was actually citing Pushkin, is also a bit too much. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 07:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, don't make claims of consensus without having proper source to support such a claim. The opinion of some is not equal to the opinion of majority. And I did not see a single source calling Azerbaijani ethnic identity fictional, like Tigran did. Grandmaster (talk) 07:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. Ulvi/Aynabend, what you're claiming is for sure wrong; I’d be surprised if you'd believe all that as a professional historian. We don't even need to find any direct correlation when both in this case mean about the same thing. Stephen F. Jones writes: Azerbaijani identity, as distinct from Muslim identity, was weak even among the intelligentsia, which was predominantly secular.' (Socialism in Georgian Colors: The European Road to Social Democracy, 1883-1917, Harvard University Press (2005) p. 19) When they cover national identity they incorporate ethnicity in this particular case (and I will develop furthermore on why this is obvious.)
You are asking who were these Tatars… this is one of the disagreements and the same author writes: In 1897 'Tatars'-which officially included most Muslim groups... While Persians, Chechens and Kurds (to a lesser extent though) were separately included, Tatars included various Muslim groups. Azerbaijani the modern identity represents the product of homogenisation and assimilation, while Tatars included various tribes, nomads etc.
Do you really believe that the modern Azerbaijani identity started to shape in the 13th century? The origin of the Azerbaijani ethnic identity started in Persia during the 19th century, mostly with the help of the Ottoman Empire which had a certain policy in the region. And my source on the birth of the identity is none other than Touraj Atabaki (Azerbaijan: Ethnicity and Autonomy in Twentieth-Century Iran, British Academia Press, 1993). Prior to that, it was just a region of Persia (South of Arax).
I'm intrigued on something; you do admit that what is called "Azerbaijani literature" was in fact Turkman in origin… what I fail to understand is your persistence in continuing to claim Turkman history as Azerbaijani when it is the other way around even from your indirect admission. Your comparison with the Prussians doesn't make sense either because Prussians are not Germans I don't know where you got all that. Past NAZI propaganda claimed such stuff... even Germans don’t claim such a thing. They were Baltic people speaking a Baltic language prior to the establishment of a German government in Prussia. If you claim they were German then no wonder you think the Azerbaijani identity started forming in the 13th century.
I said that I will cover why national identity and ethnic identity is the same in this case and that it is used alternatively by scholars; so here we go. Since the Turkic tribes living there didn't have any clear and defined identity besides Islam, they formed their ethnicity and their identity with the geographic area they were living in. This was Tigran’s point when he said that if Azerbaijan was to be cut to pieces, they will form various different identities because this modern identity has been built recently and is built on the geographic region that they are living in. Basically this is why Artsakh’s independence is a threat to the Azerbaijani identity; without their defined borders they have no history under that identity. This is why all the myths about everything Armenian is Albanian and that Azerbaijanis are the decedents of the Albanians pop up. The intellectuals needed those myths to fabricate a history on their identity and compete with the clearly defined Armenian identity that has been around for centuries before the current era.
So in brief, nothing Tigran said is wrong. If you find something offending there, it does not make a difference because most academics support his position. - Fedayee (talk) 07:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
See my above post. Grandmaster (talk) 07:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
This discussion does not belong here. I can easily prove you wrong by citing plenty of reliable sources, but this is not a place for that. What is discussed here is how appropriate is by a member of certain ethnic group to call an ethnic identity of another one "so called", "fictional", etc? Even if we assume that this other ethnic group came into being just a few years ago (which is impossible, but let's assume that), is it appropriate to make such comments here and isn't it a violation of WP:Civil and the supervised editing restrictions, imposed on Tigran by the arbcom? I would really be interested in an admin take on this. Grandmaster (talk) 07:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Even Aynabend admitted above that the Azeri identity, if there was one prior to 1919 (there wasn't, but let's assume), "died in the Soviet era." So, even he admits that the "Azeri identity" has been nonesixtent. I merely repeat what academic sources, and Aynabend, have been saying about the state of the "Azerbaijani identity." The reason this discussion belongs here is that Grandmaster brought in a context dispute in here, which is inappropriate and against the Wiki rules. It is also relevant here that Grandmaster, Atabek, and Aynabend have continued making ethnicicty insulting comments against Armenians in talk pages (about NKR being "a non-existent, illegal state") despite being warned by Armenian users. Such defiance of other Misplaced Pages members, as well as calling them "ethnically prejudiced," is a clear violation of WP:Civil, and the supervised editing restrictions of these users.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 12:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


Fedayee, I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Instead of wasting your time here, you better start editing Prussia and Otto von Bismarck articles at wiki and let the entire world know that they were "Baltic speaking" people and nation, had nothing to do with the modern Germans... Tigran, please read my posting more carefully, I said the that during Soviet times the identity of Azerbaijanis either "changed its form or died for 70 years". This is in itself a disputable question. Some Armenian ethnographers would try to prove the opposite that, during last 30 years of the Soviets, especially under H. Aliyev Azerbaijanis have united as a nation... If you need names, I can give you in private.

Anyway, coming to the subject. Here is what the witness of those days in 1905, James D. Henry says about the Tatars:

"The census returns of Baku town, Bailov Promontory, White Town, the villages of Kishli and Akhmedli, the oil field region of Bibi-Eibat, the Balakhani-Saboonchi-Ramani fields and Balakhani, Saboonchi Ramani and Zabrat villages put the population at 206,757*. Forty-four nationalities are registered. These include representatives of nearly all European nations, Central Asia, Asia Minor, Persia, Arabia, and even Abyssinia. The chief nationalities number thirteen, and each of these has more than 500 representatives. The first place is occupied by Russians, who number 74,254; then follow 53,827 local Tartars, 34,259 Armenians, 18,572 Persians, 5,859 Jews, 5,025 Germans, 4,157 Tartars from south-eastern Russia (known as Kazan Tartars), 3,857 Lezghins, 2,614 Georgians, 1,548 Poles, 617 Greeks, and 679 Mordovtzis. The other inhabitants - to the number of 1,646 - represent thirty-one nationalities. Eight of these Swedes, Ossetins, Letts, Bohemians, Slovaks, Frenchmen, Lithuanians, Englishmen, and Turks - have each over one hundred representatives. The remaining twenty-three nationalities account for less than 100 each, while seventeen are represented by less than 25 persons"

  • Twenty years ago the population of Baku was between 70,000 and 80,000. Source: Henry, J.D. Baku An Eventful History. With Many Illustrations And a Map. London 1905. pages 11-12

Now as you see, even a British engineer who wrote the world-known book about Baku in those days put a distinction between the local Tartars (or Tatars) and the ones who came from south-eastern Russia and identified them as Kazan Tartars. If in you opinion the Tatars who fought with the Armenians in 1905 were of the mixed ethnic origin of various Turkic people, then why there was a distinction emphasized in the book, two chapters of which refers to 1905 Armenian-Azeri clashes? Please don't tell me that you do not like all the Britts in the world. --Aynabend (talk) 19:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Ulvi/Aynabend, the Prussians were NOT German. Before it was taken by the Teuronic Knights and the German assimilation of the group, the real Prussians were speaking a distinct language. You see you referred to the Prussians and now are referring to the assimilated German Prussia.
The comparison is actually more similar to the Armenian Patriarchate of Artsakh with the Albanians, the same way that the Germans declared lordship of Prussia. The Germans already had a distinct identity, just like if you compare the Patriarchate with when he was referring to himself as Albanian. The Armenians had a distinct identity. The German identity was prevailing and clearly defined much before the Ottonian dynasty. The Prussians were not the ancestors of the Germans, neither were they of old Prussia and its inhabitants, Germans. They have been assimilated by a group which already had a clearly defined identity, the Duchy. So again, you failed to explain any similarities between Tatars-Azerbaijanis and Prussian-Germans; both are unrelated in terms of ancestries. While Old Prussian might have had some influence on the Germans living in the area, the Germans were identified already centuries before the Teuronic Knights took over Prussia.
You see the NAZI abolished Prussia, even though it was symbolic at the time, of the Germanic Prussia, and dismissed its old history and claimed it exclusively as German including the original inhabitants of Prussia, Baltic speaking people. You are using double standards… aren't you also basically overemphasising on the Caucasian Albanians on every Eastern region, including a large area recognized as being in the older Armenian lands? Why don't you use the same standard and consider the Caucasian Albanians as Armenians? Your comparison is not inaccurate, but even if it had been accurate, it does not support your thesis… at worst it contradicts it.
As for your quote, they were called Tartars, most of the Muslims living there were called Tartars, and I don't see how this supports your argument in any way. - Fedayee (talk) 21:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


The above is an extended discussion that has been collapsed for improved usability.


  • This discussion of national identity is fascinating but I don't see anything that is actionable under the terms of the editing restriction. We need to understand that what is "offensive" is often judged from different points of view, but ultimately some sort of "Average person" standard needs to apply. As an interested but uninvolved bystander, I don't find anything offensive in quoting a scholar as saying the Azeri people have a weak sense of national identity, or quoting a historian saying that the Azeri identity is a product of 20th century politics, although I acknowledge those views might anger or offend some Azeris. If we were to take action against every comment that could be interpreted as offensive by the most sensitive editor, all of you would have been banned long ago. Perhaps there is something more serious that I have missed in the above, very lengthy discussion. If so, please make a new, brief report with clear and obvious diffs of the problem. Thank you. Thatcher131 01:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Asgardian

I think User: Asgardian violated his restriction on the Vision (Marvel Comics) article (making two reverts in four days) and on the Quicksilver (comics) article. --DrBat (talk) 04:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Not true. The user above, however, did make several blind reverts. I have not responded with still another revert, as this will only cause an edit war. Rather, I will explain the changes on his Talk Page and the relevant character Talk page. Thank you.

Asgardian (talk) 08:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Admin response In the future please provide diffs of the alleged reversions so we don't have to hunt them down. On Vision (Marvel Comics), this and this are both reversions in the broad sense of the term, since they discard the majority of changes introduced by other editors and revert to a version that is substantially identical to the previous version in the diff. I'm not finding any reversions (as distinguished from normal collaborative editing) in the Quicksilver article. Many people assume that editors on restriction are allowed to edit an article only once a week, this is not true. A reversion is distinguished from an edit by discarding most or all of the intervening contributions without making an attempt to edit collaboratively. The edits I cite on the Vision article are reversions and this is a violation. Since this is the first reported violation I will issue a warning only, but it will be logged. Thatcher131 03:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Rosencomet and Starwood related articles
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
The caution is not enforceable. Make a new request to ArbCom to create an enforceable remedy. Thatcher131 02:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


User:Rosencomet has been violating the terms of the Starwood Arbitration. The Starwood Arbitration had this proposed remedy: "Rosencomet is cautioned to avoid aggressive editing of articles when there is a question of conflict of interest. If edit warring or other conflict arises, it may be best to limit editing to talk pages."

This has actually been an ongoing problem since the end of the arbitration in March 2007. The central articles affected are:

Rosencomet has used the phrase "as executive director of ACE" so he has a conflict of interest in editing all three of the non-autobio articles.

Winterstar Symposium: A section is marked with a laundry list tag . Rosencomet reverts without addressing the issue. On the talk page, Rosencomet is combatative and aggressively argumentative in his approach to the discussion. (This diff covers several consecutive edits by Rosencomet)
Starwood Festival: When asked for inline citations and integration of references into the body of the article , Rosencomet responds by adding a link to the Starwood website and removes the citation needed tag. Rosencomet's response on the talk page is again aggressively combatative I'd also like to note that Rosencomet has apparently been using Google's book search to add references to the article. In other words, if a book mentions Starwood in passing, he will put it in the references section. Many of these are clearly trivial mentions and add nothing of substance to the references beyond increasing the numbers. I believe this kind of empty bloating of references should be avoided in favour of refs primarily about the subject of the article.
Jeff Rosenbaum: WP:COI issues are blatantly apparent here since, as noted above, Rosencomet is undoubtedly Mr. Rosenbaum. A look at the history will show he has extensively edited this page. Most recently is this series of edits . Note, among other problems, his insertion of the Starwood website as a reference for information. On the talk page, Rosencomet refers to himself as "the subject" in an attempt to deflect the COI issues.

All of this shows that, despite Arbcom admonitions, he still behaves as if WP core policies are only a matter of opinion and the normal Misplaced Pages rules don't apply to him. Over a year after these issues were brought to his attention in the strongest possible way and he still responds with hostility when policies are pointed out to him. (I also believe he is still creating articles that astroturf for his festivals and group but this was not specifically ruled on in the Arbcom case.)

I tried to be brief with this but have obviously failed. Because I was the person who brought the arbitration against Rosencomet, I feel my judgment and ability to enforce the arbcom decision is limited. Even bringing the issue here caused me some hesitation but I think my concerns stand independent of my involvement in the Arbcom case. Pigman☿ 00:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, he's getting aggressive. I checked in on some of the articles that were mentioned in the Arb, and his contribs, and attempted to address some of the problems. This is some of what Rosencomet (talk · contribs) did in response: Reversions, insertions of more rosencomet.com links, insertions in his autobio of links to forum posts he's made (calling them "articles") and reverting when they are removed, screaming edit summaries, accusations of stalking and attempts to find another contributor to edit on his behalf: Looking further back, we also see that since the Arbitration he has continued to add mentions of himself and his products (usually tapes he sells) to articles: . I think it is clear that, even after having it explained to him by Arbcom and numerous editors, Rosencomet does not seem to think that WP guidelines apply to him, or to the articles he works on (and he still seems to have trouble telling the difference between the two). After all this time on WP, he still responds to the efforts of other editors to apply basic standards to these articles as some sort of personal attack. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I decided to look into Pigman (talk · contribs)'s mention of Rosencomet (talk · contribs), continuing to create "articles that astroturf for his festivals and group." On his user page, Rosencomet has recently added a list of articles he's created, and which he appears to still be editing. Looking through them I found that Matthew Abelson, Armor & Sturtevant, John Bassette, Steve Blamires, Brushwood Folklore Center, Baba Raul Canizares, Miriam Chamani, Ian Corrigan, Phyllis Curott, Jim Donovan (musician), Sally Eaton, Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison, Philip H. Farber, LaSara FireFox, Laurence Galian, Victoria Ganger, Jesse Wolf Hardin, George R. Harker, Richard Kaczynski, Lehto and Wright, List of Neo-Pagan festivals and events, Louis Martinie', Patricia Monaghan, Christopher Moore (author), M. Macha Nightmare, Owain Phyfe, Lauren Raine, Nicki Scully, Chas Smith, Patricia Telesco, Trance Mission, and Harvey Wasserman all include links to Starwood or Winterstar (the festivals Rosencomet runs), sometimes to his autobio, and usually also to rosencomet.com (which is often the only source cited in these generally unsourced articles). While ArbCom did not rule on the appropriateness of the links, those familiar with the festival, the artists, and the Neopagan milieu did, in this RfC: Talk:Starwood Festival#Request for Comment: Inserting references to Starwood Festival in articles. Of the editors weighing in, the consensus was clearly that the internal and external links to Starwood, Winterstar, and other projects run by Jeff Rosenbaum were "a clear case of linkspam to a commercial site, and that the internal linkspam is as inappropriate as the external linkspam." Looking back over it, it looks like while a couple people were somewhat neutral, the only voice of clear support for Rosencomet's extensive linking to his projects belonged to the Ekajati/999/Hanuman Das/etc sock drawer, now indef-blocked by Arbcom. I think we have a definite problem here. And note, I did not go through his complete contribs, which, skimming the list, I know also includes articles with Starwood links. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 04:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Since this was precisely the problem that got him to arbitration in the first place, I don't see how we can overlook it. Perhaps we need to go back to ArbCom and ask for a restriction, since his entire purpose for being on Misplaced Pages appears to be boosting his own interests. Guy (Help!) 09:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
The arbitration case was really about disruption and sockpuppetry on the part of a supporter and an opponent of Rosencomet. Rosencomet's own behavior (at the time) was mostly reasonable. Of course, his editing often involves conflicts of interest, but COI editing is not prohibited; editors are warned that COI editing can lead to bad behavior and are advised to listen to the advice of more experienced wikipedians on things like notability, linkspam, and the like. The question I have is, how has Rosencomet behaved when confronted with these points (and hopefully by editors other than Kathryn and Pigman, who have past issues with him)? Does he react abusively to removal of links or deletion nominations? has he attacked other editors who have pointed out problems with his edits? If this is largely a content dispute over the notability of topics he edits that he has an interest in, it seems that the normal content processes should be followed (Third opinion, request for comment, mediation) and only approach arbitration if his behavior in defense of his edits crosses the usual boundaries (incivility, edit warring, etc). Thatcher131 17:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Thatcher, I take your point about the central issues of the arb case. However I note that, except for three very minor edits by others, Rosencomet has been the sole maintainer of the Starwood Festival article since the end of the Arbcom case. I think this is in no small part because people are adverse to enter the situation. The article has a number of obvious problems, from OR to "references" that merely mention Starwood briefly to rather blatant POV/puffery. It irks me to see obvious problems and feel I can't edit the article without being accused of attacking Rosencomet and/or Starwood. Similarly, the Jeff Rosenbaum article is almost entirely maintained by Rosencomet, the subject of the article. I believe much of the reason he has not had conflicts is because he is mostly editing in Misplaced Pages backwaters, where his COI editing passes without notice. If you think that the situation warrants only normal editing and talk page exchanges unless or until a dispute comes up, I'm willing to do that.
On his civility, if you look at one of the diffs Kathryn provided above, Rosencomet said Kathryn was "stalking" him. Near the end he says "...nor have I EVER touched anything you have written..." which shows he still has not progressed beyond an attitude of ownership of one's contributions to Misplaced Pages. At the end, he says "Please AGF, and find something better to do than to stalk my work and place unconstructive tags." I may be wrong but I don't think Kathryn has been editing any of "his" articles since the arbitration until these very recent few edits. Hardly "stalking" behaviour. Still, perhaps it was premature to bring this here. Anyway, thank you for your input. It does help to gain some perspective. Cheers, Pigman☿ 20:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am virtually the sole editor of Coal Torpedo and Thomas Edgeworth Courtenay but that does not mean I am abusive toward other people who try to edit, it means no one else cares much. The scenario that I am concerned with is that (a) you or Kathryn or some other editor has concerns about the article and edits it to address those concerns, (b) Rosencomet disputes the edits, (c) discussion on the talk page, (d) request for comment or third opinion, (e) Rosencomet edit wars to maintain his version despite consensus of multiple outside editors and/or become uncivil and abusive in defending his preferred version. If you and Kathryn seem to be the only other people interested in Starwood and Rosenbaum, try to engage Rosencomet in discussion on the talk page about your concerns and proposed changes, and use the third opinion or request for comment processes to bring in outside views, and see how it goes from there. Thatcher131 20:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Re: sole editorship: precisely. Good faith editing of articles should always be welcomed. Many Wikipedians shepherd and watch articles we are personally interested in but that doesn't mean we attack or are abusive to others who attempt to improve the articles in some way. I think part of the reason I brought this issue here was I envisioned exactly the scenario you outlined above. My frustration is that these articles have all been through this exact process already leading up to the arbitration. I find it rather a pain to think it needs to be repeated since I see little change in Rosencomet's attitude toward "his" articles. It's clear (to me at least) he sees any substantive change or tags to improve certain sections or aspects of the articles as attacks rather than a desire to improve them. I also believe other editors observe how pugnaciously he responds and they back away slowly from the situation as more trouble than it's worth. As I've said in the past, these are only event and organization articles, not issues around Israel-Palestine or abortion; it shouldn't be a massive struggle simply to shape them into good articles with solid sources. Cheers, Pigman☿ 22:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the diffs above there do appear to be problems with reference padding, self-sourcing, and adding links to lecture taps published by his own organization, as well as a failure to assume good faith on the part of his fellow editors (although he has not really been uncivil as such things go; I've seen much worse). As the prior decision was a non-binding "caution", you will need to bring this to the committee again. I suggest beginning with a user conduct RFC, discussing the issues of reference padding, self-sourcing, and adding links to tapes that he may profit from, as the most pressing of the current issues. Let it run for a couple of weeks and try to get more outside input, then once the new members of the Arbitration committee have been installed, you can try bringing a case if the RFC has not been satisfactory. (With the elections over but the new members not appointed, and no prior RFC in place, I do not think a case would be accepted at this time.) Thatcher131 04:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I've seen worse, too, but I don't think calling another editor a "stalker" for daring to edit "his" articles is particularly civil. As for RfCs, the issues are essentially the same (or worse) as when these two were done. I referred to the second one above (Talk:Starwood Festival#Request for Comment: Inserting references to Starwood Festival in articles) The first one, Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Mattisse#Outside view) showed even stronger consensus that he is astroturfing and spamming for his projects. The outside statement in particular, endorsed by fourteen established editors, seven of whom are admins, stated: "2. All the articles in question have links to Starwood Festival and its website. Many of these links fall outside of WP:NPOV Undue Weight, overstating the importance of a performer apperance at the starwood festival. As such these links can be considered a case of WP:SPAM. The links have all been added by User:Rosencomet who is connect to the event so WP:VAIN also applies." I don't think it gets much clearer than that.
I'd also note that, while there is no evidence to support sockpuppetry on the part of Rosencomet himself, suddenly today after Rosencomet reverted Guy's removal of uncited lists, and I reinstated Guy's edit, another Ekajati sock showed up to start reverting. Rosencomet has never stopped defending the sockdrawer's actions, and I find it interesting that shortly after he started posting on talk pages calling me a stalker for editing an article in a normal manner, and suggesting Guy was "just looking for fights" and should also stay a away from the articles, the sockpuppets returned. Personally, I don't think it's a coincidence.
In this diff, Rosencomet states his understanding of the ArbCom decision: "This is obviously not about the data, but a problem she has with me about such issues as POV and COI, issues that were put to bed long ago (I thought) with the assurance that I was free to edit as long as I did not do so "aggressivly" or edit war". So, it looks to me like he truly believes the COI issues do not apply to him as long as he doesn't violate 3RR. Or something. I have to wonder if he's ever read any of the policies we have repeatedly pointed out to him. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Whatever. The caution from the previous case is unenforceable. Thatcher131 05:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah. Well. I see your point. The caution is relatively nonspecific and doesn't provide penalties. However, I admit disappointment that you're essentially saying the Arbitration was pointless in the end. Sadly, Pigman☿ 06:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I can not find any User conduct requests for comment. The difference between an article RFC and a user RFC is that an article RFC is used to attract wider attention to a contentious issue, while a User conduct RFC is used to attract wider attention to a users' behavior. Giving several examples of problematic behavior as noted here, and asking for comments from uninvolved editors, may be able to demonstrate to Rosencomet how his editing is sometimes not acceptable; alternatively it may demonstrate to Arbcom that his conduct as a use falls outside Misplaced Pages norms. Thatcher131 19:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The article RfCs all focused on Rosencomet's self-promotion toa large extent; it may be moot since he's admitted allowing others to use his account. Guy (Help!) 23:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Very specific COI violations

I filed a slightly different version of the paragraph below over on WP:COI/N here when it seemed unlikely that this discussion would bear fruit. User:MER-C suggested keeping discussion together here so I'm reposting it. Please look at the links, particularly the two showing identical pictures of Jeff Rosenbaum, who personally sells items from the Starwood Store over the phone. This is a succinct and clear statement on the COI issues. There are several new links but I apologize in advance for any redundancies to the discussion here.

It is reasonably certain that Rosencomet (talk · contribs) is Jeff Rosenbaum (see Arbcom finding here), the Executive Director of the Association for Consciousness Exploration, LLC (ACE). Despite an Arbcom caution (here), he has extensively edited these articles (please see the histories of the articles.) I interpret these extensive revisions as "aggressive" editing as well as an autobio violation on the Jeff Rosenbaum article. Additionally, his editing and lack of posting of a COI notice on his user page mean that many more articles besides these four are affected. See this version of his userpage for a sizable (but possibly incomplete) listing. If any doubt exists about his COI, see this book excerpt with Mr. Rosenbaum's photo and compare it to this ACE CyberCatalog page. Note the caption saying Mr. Rosenbaum sells the items personally. (As an aside, I found the Rosencomet Classic Thong offered on Starwood's Cafe Press store to be very attractive. And comfortable too.) As to why this hasn't been brought here before: This noticeboard (WP:COI/N) didn't exist when I first brought the Arbcom case against Rosencomet in Dec. 2006 and I was burned out in the aftermath of the relatively toothless "caution" of Rosencomet by Arbcom in March, 2007. These issues have been discussed with Rosencomet extensively over the last 16 months. Read his talk page for a sampling of efforts by a large number of Wikipedians. Cheers, Pigman☿ 18:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC) (Addendum: I've just noticed Rosencomet's talk page has been archived so that is a better example of discussions with him. Pigman☿ 19:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC))

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ferrylodge

The applicable case is Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge and R2.1. The exact ruling is a little confusing, which resulted in a request for clarification. The ruling says that Ferrylodge is "restricted", but the clarification said that FL "is not under any general ban". This has caused FL to start editing at the topics mentioned in the ArbCom remedies (abortion and pregnancy). I'm still a little confused on the nature of the ArbCom ruling, but from what I gather, they basically said "FL is unblocked, and unrestricted in his editing, but if he is disruptive on two specific topics (interpreted broadly) uninvolved admins have the added ability to impose an article ban on FL, on an article by article, case by case level."

Moving on, since FL has been back, he has, to my knowledge, been warned twice about civility. Once by User:The Evil Spartan 23:28, 1 December 2007, and once by User:Cool Hand Luke 01:33, 17 December 2007. Needless to say, someone coming out of a community ban should not need to be warned about civility. Not once, and definitely not twice.

Next, FL has begun editing topics related to abortion, specifically Roe v. Wade and Abortion. I am currently in a content dispute with FL, and I am here to ask an uninvolved admin to ban him from the article, per the ArbCom ruling. I urge you to please read the talk page starting from Talk:Roe v. Wade#Context for poll results. I do not believe FL can discuss content, not editors. He has made this discussion personal multiple times. In fact, he posted a personal message to me on the page (see the "Editorializing" heading), which I kindly asked him to move to my talk page (which he refused). I was trying hard to work with FL, really hard. But it is incredibly hard to stay on topic and stick to content, when the other party is making things personal, on an uncivil level. I've reached the point where I do not feel I can discuss this further with FL, and I realized I shouldn't even be in this situation. FL has been uncivil in this talk page discussion. He has been warned twice for civility issues since he has come back. The article in question is on a topic covered by the ArbCom enforcement. So I ask an uninvolved admin to review this case and possibly ban him from Roe v. Wade.

Severa has shown similar concerns that an uninvolved admin may want to considered as well, see this. -Andrew c  19:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Informational: Applicable text of the remedy reads "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing."
Question: Is the editing Ferrylodge has done on these topics "inappropriate"? I feel this needs to be shown before any block/article ban takes place. Mahalo. --Ali'i 19:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Although I was not informed about this request by Andrew c (or about Severa's comment to which he links), I hope it won't be inappropriate to respond here briefly.
I hope that people reviewing this matter will keep in mind the following recent comment by SandyGeorgia:
"Considering how extremely helpful, patient and civil I found Ferrylodge to be on restoring Roe v. Wade to featured status, and that I couldn't decipher his POV during that FAR, I hope post-ArbCom hounding of Ferrylodge doesn't become an issue."
Andrew c is correct that we are having a disagreement at a talk page. However, the ArbCom decision involves edits to articles rather than talk pages: "Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing." Nor does it does not involve the articles where Evil Spartan and Luke interacted with me.
I hope admins and others will feel free to visit the Roe v. Wade talk page that Andrew c mentions, not to decide whether I should be banned (the ArbCom decision does not authorize banning for talk page comments), but merely to see whether I was uncivil as Andrew c contends. I did not accuse him of "bias," or of "editorializing," or of trying to "jab" me, or of trying to insert "personal opinion" into the article. Those were things he said to me. All I did was deny it.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, the "interpreted broadly" clause might mean that talk pages are indeed included. But the fact remains that it needs to be shown that you are editing inappropriately. --Ali'i 19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I suppose that's possible, though that isn't how I read the decision. If the decision does include talk pages as well as articles, then I'd like some clarification on that point. In any event, I was not disruptively editing the talk page in question. Incidentally, although I don't think the article where Luke and I interacted is at all relevant here, he also commended me for my work there.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
(ec)Not going to comment on Ferrylodge's recent conduct on the two articles in question, but just noting that part of the reason why Ferrylodge was brought to CSN was because of his conduct on talk pages and it seems that is what is in question here, not his actual article editing. --Bobblehead 20:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment Bobblehead. The CSN has been abolished, and the complete ban on me that the CSN imposed has been overturned. So, why is the CSN relevant here? Also, KillerChihuahua brought her complaint at the CSN for alleged edit-warring in articles, not in talk pages.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Heh. Sorry, should have been clearer and expanded my wording to include the evidence in arbcom. I mentioned CSN because that was the initial place that your conduct was brought up in a manner that requested some sort of "punishment". It should also be pointed out that the evidence that the arbcom chose to use in their Finding of Fact about you having a history of disruptive editing in pregnancy and abortion articles, but productive editing in other areas includes your conduct on the talk pages.--Bobblehead 20:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Neither the findings of fact nor the decision mentioned anything about talk pages.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Geez... I've gone ahead and sought more clarification from the arbitration committee. Drop this until we hear back? --Ali'i 20:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

To answer the question posed by Ali'i: Yes. On the article Roe v. Wade, Ferrylodge inserted commentary on a particular opinion poll, which he had previously done on several abortion-related articles beginning in January 2007. The recent pursuit of a fetal illustration at Talk:Abortion, while not an example of an edit made to an article itself, shows further that Ferrylodge has not let old matters drop with regard to articles on abortion. Ferrylodge added just such an image to the article Abortion in September, resulting in a lot of complication, as documented here. The point is that there are a 2 million articles to edit on Misplaced Pages and just as many edits which could be pursued on those articles related to pregnancy and abortion. But, even after the ArbCom decision, Ferrylodge is still opting to concentrate on the same narrow range of things as before (the Harris poll on Roe and fetus pictures). It's this fact which I consider worthy of examination. -Severa (!!!) 20:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Severa is citing only two recent diffs, and all the others are from before the ArbCom proceedings. This is the first of those two recent diffs, in which I updated poll results at the Roe v. Wade article (presumably Severa does not object to that updating), and in which I mentioned that "the poll question quoted above asked about only 'part' of the decision." That statement is factually correct, and is fully supported by the text of the poll question itself. Nevertheless, Andrew c objected to that factual statement, and the matter is currently under discussion at the Roe v. Wade talk page. I did not reinsert that factual statement after Andrew c removed it. Severa's second diff is here. This is what I said at the abortion talk page, that Severa finds so offensive:
"I hope that some thought will be given to including a non-shock image of a typical fetus before it is aborted, so that the image is not a shock image. Susan Faludi, in her book 'The Undeclared War Against American Women' (1991) said: 'The antiabortion iconography in the last decade featured the fetus but never the mother.' In contrast, the present article now features iconography of the mother but not of the fetus, and I think this situation needs some balancing."
Frankly, I do not understand how there is anything inappropriate about what I said at the abortion talk page. Am I to understand that it is forbidden for me to even mention that pictures of a fetus exist?Ferrylodge (talk) 20:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I never said I found anything "offensive" about the particularities of what you had said so please refrain from reading that into my comment. What I do find questionable is that you seem to have returned to abortion-related articles just to pick up on old battles instead of letting sleeping dogs lie. And, while we're on the topic, was it really necessary to give this reply to Y? Sometimes the best response is none. -Severa (!!!) 21:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Severa, if you did not find my edits to be offensive or disruptive, then please let's discuss them elsewhere. Thanks.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Your response to my request that you not present my words out of context is to do so to an even greater degree. Above, you stated, "This is what I said at the abortion talk page, that Severa finds so offensive," and then provided a quotation. I responded to clarify that I found nothing "offensive" about what you'd said specifically — I don't agree with the fetus picture suggestion, but that doesn't mean I'm offended by it. What I do object to is the apparent effort to reopen disputes over the Harris poll and fetus pictures months after they've closed. I believe that I was quite clear about the nature my objection in the post above so I am not sure from where you have inferred that I "d not find edits to be...disruptive." -Severa (!!!) 21:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Severa, if you found my comment to be disruptive but not offensive, then that's fine. I'm not sure I understand the distinction, but let's not quibble. All I did was mention the issue of photos to some new editors at the abortion article who have never even thought about it before. I didn't argue back and forth, and I didn't edit the abortion article. If you think it's disruptive for me to not let sleeping dogs lie, do you also think it might possibly be disruptive for you to not relent in your criticism of me?Ferrylodge (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Clarification has been provided that article talk pages are covered by the ArbCom decision in my case, although I may be given "more freedom on talk pages." In any event, as explained above, I was not being disruptive at the talk page in question.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It has now become clear that Ferrylodge is editing the Roe v. Wade article in an attitude that is having a derogatory and negative effect on the article, and by extension Misplaced Pages as a whole. In my capacity as a neutral, uninvolved administrator, and in accordance with the remedy outlined here, I instigate a ban on Ferrylodge from that article for disruptive editing: he simply is harming this article. Anthøny 21:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Anthony, your notice says:

"The user specified is on probation and has edited this article inappropriately. The user is not prevented from discussing or proposing changes on this talk page. This ban must be registered on the administrators noticeboard. If you disagree with this ban, please discuss it with the administrator who imposed it or on the noticeboard. At the end of the ban, anyone may remove this notice."

May I ask what article edit I made that you deem inappropriate? Was it an article edit or a talk page edit? This information would certainly help me to improve. Thanks.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

My main motivation was the entire atmosphere around your editing, over both a recent and long period of time. Despite an Arbitration Committee ruling against you, you seem to have proceeded in pretty much the same manner. This edit was in some ways the final straw: you are editing in a negative manner, and I cannot stand by and allow it to happen any more. Ferrylodge, please edit constructively: further patience is unlikely to be sent your way, if this poor standard of editing continues. Anthøny 22:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Anthony, thanks for your explanation. I assume that the ArbCom did not want me banned from any article based on activities predating the ArbCom decision, so I appreciate your providing me with an example of a recent article edit. May I ask, what is it about this edit that you find objectionable? Was it the fact that I updated out-of-date poll results? Or was it the fact that I quoted from the poll question? Do you realize that, after I quoted from the poll question, and after that quote was deleted, I did not attempt to reinsert it? There was no edit-warring whatsoever.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Request for clarification... how exactly is that edit you provided "editing in a negative manner"? Ferrylodge was trying to update the polls, and clarify the context. How is that negative? You'll have to forgive me if I miss how it is. Mahalo, AGK. --Ali'i 22:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
(e.c. mark two) First off, I must admit I'm impressed by the way you are conducting yourself around this: most users who come out of AC cases in this way are rather difficult to deal with. Secondly, I chose that edit as an example: having looked through recent contributions by Ferrylodge in that area, it was and is clear to me that Ferrylodge is not editing there in a positive manner, hence my action. Ferrylodge, are you absolutely positive you can edit constructively in that area? Anthøny 22:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Anthony, I promise I'll do my best. I've only tried to make the article better. It's a contentious topic, so there are bound to be disgreements at the talk page, but I promise I'll not make unconstructive edits to the article.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
No offense AGK, but if you look at the history of Roe v. Wade, you'd see that Ferrylodge has probably done more to help the article than any other one person. His editing has hardly been "derogatory and negative". Even since his arbitration committee decision, he has contributed positively. I request that you look at the history page of Roe v. Wade and look at more edits that haven't been brought up here. I think Ferrylodge has done exceptional work in this area, and is in the midst of an ever-lasting content dispute (it's a bout abortion... of course there is going to be debate). Mahalo. --Ali'i 22:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
When I reviewed the history, I picked up exactly the opposite. However, I have been impressed by FL's handling of the situation, so I've reversed the ban for the moment. Having said that, Ferrylodge, I would like to discuss the matter with you, some time; I'm going off-line in a moment, but I'll try and catch up with you tomorrow (talk page, email or IRC?) Anthøny 22:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Anthony. I've never used IRC, and don't know how to. Email would be good.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

First, I have no prior involvement in this case whatsoever, so I'm neutral, but it seems to me that Ferrylodge's continued reinserting of the same material (the poll for example) is a continuation of prior behavior. But it's also true that this Roe v. Wade article is always a hot one. As FL and AGK are going to discuss it, let's hope something works out. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Rlevse, I'll do my best to minimize controversy here, and to work with Anthony, and to make only constructive edits. Regarding "the poll" that you mention, there are two polls involved here: a Harris poll that has been in the article for a very long time and that I have therefore not had any occasion to reinsert, and also an LA Times poll that was included during the featured article review but subsequently removed. At the talk page, I did urge reinsertion of the LA Times poll, but I never actually reinserted it into the article because there was no consensus. The reason why I urged reinsertion is because the article right now has Harris poll results that cover the first trimester, but the article omits poll results for the second trimester, which is not a balanced presentation (the LA Times poll covered the second trimester). Anyway, I hope that kind of explains the polls. I will not reinsert that stuff without consensus to do so. Cheers.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

-Andrew c  00:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your good wishes, Andrew c. Vice versa, of course. Out of sympathy for Thatcher131, I'll let my comments at the talk page speak for themselves.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
-Severa (!!!) 01:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the warning I issued at Mitt Romney was caused by uncivil exchanges entirely unrelated to abortion. In fact, two other users were warned at the same time. I had previously asked if such activity could fall under the language of the ArbCom, but User:Crockspot and others indicated that editing on non-abortion aspects of Romney could not run afoul of his editing restriction. I agree. The restriction is not a topic ban, but is instead a prohibition on: (1) editing disruptively (2) on abortion topics. Neither of the warnings satisfy these conditions, so it should be shown that Ferrylodge is currently editing disruptively on abortion topics. A mere disagreement is not disruptive. Cool Hand Luke 04:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

MartinPhi poisoning the well

Is it appropriate for MartinPhi to come into a conflict with which he admits he is not involved and poison the well against me? Here is the relevant diff: . ScienceApologist (talk) 18:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

What are the relevant Arbitration cases? Thatcher131 19:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
The relevant case is Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist. I was involved in that case, so take this for what it's worth: but following ScienceApologist around to various talk pages , by tracking his contrib history, specifically to bring up the Arbitration case seems like borderline Wikistalking and probably violates MartinPhi's restriction against disruptive behavior. MastCell 19:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it is well known that Wiki is very, very hard to follow. If ScienceApologist is (to use the current word) poisoning the Misplaced Pages experience for new or newish users, or simply users who are unfamiliar with him, it is quite ok -only ethical- to let them know that he is under sanction probably for doing exactly what he's doing there. They deserve to know that, and how else can they find out? If the sanction does not apply to the case, then it does him no harm. If it does, then the sanction should be applied, because the newish users have a right to defend themselves. Otherwise, they are in the position of being bullied by a highly aggressive and highly experienced user, without recourse. Far from being disruptive, this is merely a step toward ArbCom enforcement. Also, I was not wikistalking- I watch the article, and saw that SA was giving other users a hard time -whether justifiably, I don't know.

In point of fact, one of my first experiences with being attacked on Wiki was by ScienceApologist, when I was just in the position I guess they are- a newish user, unable to find my way around very well at all. Boy, was that a negative experience. I wouldn't want anyone else to have to go through that. They deserve the help.

ScienceApologist admits above that it is in fact a conflict (rather than a debate, for instance) and says that I am not involved. I'm involved in WP, and made a contribution as an outside party, giving a bit of highly relevant context as a more experienced user. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Your comments seek to position yourself as an altruistic "outside party" simply "providing context" for a new user. However, the title of the relevant ArbCom case attests to a long-standing conflict between yourself and ScienceApologist. Furthermore, the "newish" user in question has been on-wiki since May 2005, predating all of us. It would be advisable not to track ScienceApologist and insert yourself into discussions he's having; doing so is virtually guaranteed to be counterproductive given the deep historical antagonism between the two of you. MastCell 21:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps. I will consider your advice. When I see IP users I assume they are new, though that isn't always true. But also consider that it does him absolutely no harm in the case that he is not violating the terms of his probabtion.
Also, I don't track him. I just watch that article. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Per that ruling, Martinphi, you may be banned from any article or talk page you disrupt. That was in my view a disruptive edit, pouring petrol on the flames and in the process bolstering someone who is advancing a fringe view and impeding SA's attempts to help people there understand sourcing, verifiability and neutrality policies. It's hard to see what intent there was other than undermining SA, which is borderline harassment. It may well be that SA's style is brusque, but your intervention has consistently failed to do anything to improve that, and he's never going to accept you asn an honest broker, so I strongly suggest you butt out of that dispute. Guy (Help!) 22:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's not forget that SA is under restrictions too...These two have been to arbcom already and a quick look makes me think this is just a rehash of old issues. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Martinphi, you jumped in to a talk page dispute where you have never edited before in order to poke ScienceApologist with a stick. Don't do it again. ScienceApologist is under restriction that he may be banned from a page or pages for being uncivil, making personal attacks, and assuming bad faith about another editor. I don't see that in his discussion with the IP editor. In any case, the proper response, if you see such behavior, is to report it rather than make it worse. I repeat, don't do it again. Thatcher131 01:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)